The AI arms race to build digital god
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Hello, welcome to decoder. I need a tel editor and chief of the virgin. Decoder is my show. But big ideas and other problems today, we're going to try and figure out digital. God, I figured we've been doing decode a long, long enough get after IT.

Can we build an artificial intelligence so powerful that changes the world and answers all our questions? You'll not be surprised to know that the AI industry has decided the answer is yes in september. OpenAI then published a blog post claiming will have super intelligent AI in just a few thousand days.

In earlier of this month, dara A A mode, the cee of anthropic published blood post, sling out what he thinks such a system will be capable of when he does arrive, which he says could be as soon as twenty twenty six. The blog post is fourteen thousand words long. Dario has a lot of ideas with fascinating is that the vision sam and dario layout in their posts are so similar, they both promised dramatic superintelligent A I that will bring about massive improvements to work, to science and health care, even to democracy and prosperity, to happiness, digital god, baby.

But all the visions are similar that companies, in many ways are openly opposed. Anthropic is the original open eed defection story. Dara, a cover of his fellow researchers, left OpenAIn tw enty tw enty on e af ter gr owing, concerned with the companies increasingly commercial direction and approach to safety.

And I created anthropi C2Be a s af er, slower air company. And the emphasis really has been on safer, which is sometimes had a pretty dramatic effect on the companies and reputation. Just last year, a major near times profile anthropic called IT, quote the White hot center of A I dumervil, but launch a ChatGPT in a general AI boom that followed his kicked off a colossal tech arms race.

An anthropic is as much in that game as anyone else. It's taken in billions of funding, mostly from amazon, and it's built, claude, a chatbot and language model, to rival opening s GPT. For now, dario is writing long blood posts about spreading democracy with A I.

So what's going on here? Why is the head of anthropic s suddenly talking so optimistically about A I, when his company was previously known for being the safer, slower or alternative to the progress at all costs? OpenAItem.

Is this just more hype to court prospective investors or researchers? Then, if ajai I really is just run the corner, how are we even measure what IT means were to be safe to break IT all them? I bought out on verge senior AI report, or carthy Robinson to discuss what IT means, what's going on in the industry, and whether we can even trust all these AI CEO to be.

Tell what they really think. I digital god and capitalism, but mostly digital god. Here we got.

Color roberson to the color.

Thank you for having .

i'm excited talk to you about digital god in the race to either build IT or spend money on building IT in whether digital god will be cool, right? If you feel like there's a lot of debate on whether digital god will be cool or not, where do you come down?

That's a great way to start. Do I think digital god will be cool, but you what's the web check on digital god? I think you know our humans good and chill.

It's just a philosophical debate at this point. I hope so. I don't think so.

Yeah, is digital god chill, I think, is as a motivating question for silk valley right now, really sums up a lot of things. And you've described this as tribal ism. You have described IT as religious. You have describe as ideological and the conversations we've had at a highlevel just explain what's going on here.

IT is very tribal and it's something i've experienced covering at which you know the side that building an increasingly is saying, listen, we are building something that is going to transform the world. IT is going to as uh one C O put IT IT could spread democracy IT could cure diseases, not just like diseases, but ptsd and anxieties, really nebulous things. They truly believe this and they're pushing hard on this narrative where as a whole other side is saying that this is all a scheme and that they shouldn't be trusted IT. So both sides seem to be completely known at each other.

Yeah, I and that conversation is not sure, regardless of what the god is. chill. The debate right now seems ferocious, definitely, and I am really .

sympatheti C2Both sid es. I was just listening to another podcast about tribal ism, which is why the front of my mind, which is both sides, want the thing, which is for the Better of humanities, and one side thinks that A, I is going to make humanity ity worse. In one side thinks it's going to be made Better.

So into this steps anthropic and anthropic CEO dario, on the day anthropic, famously the first of the we're leaving OpenAI to start a safe AI company. Companies, there are now lots of them, but they were the first. He's trying to split the difference.

He's got this long blog place called machines of loving Grace. And he is saying, like, we are trying to build the same first one. But we look at all the school stuff can do. If we can pull IT off, what is go on there?

So I was about fourteen thousand words where dari o says, you know, I know that this is very fabulous and crazy to say, but i'm gna say IT anyways, because I think it's worth saying that we could shrink about a hundred years of scientific breakthroughs in progress in five to ten years with A G. I. He doesn't like to call A A G.

I. He thinks it's like sort of a crazy term, which is artificial general intelligence. He likes to call IT powerful.

A, I, IT can cure P, T, S, D. I can spread democracy. IT can do all of these crazy things, just if humans weren't so limited in terms of compute. And yeah, it's it's really selling. This is the future we can have if we work hard enough, if we achieve age, if we achieve IT in a chill way.

This is right next to open the eye, which is making many of the same claims same. Altman wrote his own blog post a few weeks ago saying within a few thousand days we might have agi. And here's all the stuff we could do.

They've obviously just raised a lot of money. There's a ferial competition for talent in this industry. We keep calling a digital god because it's funny to say, but is the end state the same or they're racing to the same place?

Yes, I believe deep mind's first mission was built, A G, I. Opening eyes, mission built A G I. Anthropic built A G I. They have stated very clearly, that's what they want to build. I don't know if they would agree with our joke about digital guy, but IT is more fun to say, yeah, they all want to build general intelligence because they see that as a way to change the world in many different ways. Rather than only changing one sector, they could generally change the entire world with general intelligence.

Can you actually explain the the mechanism of that to me? I use these tools today. Some of them are very powerful. They can certainly make a video of, well, smooth things together had ever increasing levels of fidelity, but I don't know how they spread democracy.

It's, again, fourteen thousand word. He really sells this in a way that these tiny breakthrough just, you know, for science. He had quoted this person who said, you know, it's all these tiny breakthroughs get you to larger breakthrough so you can make us more efficient in terms of our processes.

And that can be said for large scale data analytics, for finance, for medicine, for a lot of different sectors. So what they see is a model that can understand and analyze and pass through large, large, large amounts of data in ways humans can't. And they see all the ways that can change the efficiencies of certain sectors in which you can get us humans to have more breakthrough.

But not only that, they are hoping that they can do this autonomously all the time. So I think he says a million of the smartest people in a data center is how he views this is like cities of people, but they're just A I working all the time on these issues. That's how they are view IT.

So this is a show about decision making. And every time I hear a pitch like that, IT occurs to me that the goal is to give up some enormous amount of decision making. I do know how to distribute food throughout our city or weigh out the electrical grid or whatever IT is, and we're just gonna.

The robots in the data center do IT and the data might be on the same time, don't worry about IT and then will be free because the A I will just do IT. That's the pitch, right, is that we'll just hand over a bunch of control to an agi. I mean, that's why I keep calling a digital god.

What they like to say is that when IT comes to really complex issues, IT will work all day hours and hours thinking through this issue and then IT will come back for clarification. And so that's the cavy ates like, no, it's not going to control everything, but IT will control those route tasks and then come back to you be like, okay, I thought about this.

Can you answer these questions? What do you think about this? They think of IT as a partner in that way, but they ultimately yet they don't want you to have to check up on IT all the time. That's true.

But but a partner to who .

a partner to what they claim are some of the world's smart sst people, which are people working on cancer, people working on automatic vehicles themselves, which I can .

get into the promise I sort of understand, right? We will have ultra powerful computing system as you can reason and help us solve problems, and don't never get tired to have feelings about what we're using them for. Fine, I read these bg post. I read sams and IT seems like the part where a bunch of people still have to make decisions is fully swept under the rug.

Yeah, I read the entire amedee blog and I felt a studied in cool. This utopia might be like, where are we to getting there? Like, what is the answers to actually getting there? And I have the job of explaining to readers who are extremely skeptical, because they're like, I can even count the letter of hours.

And strawberry, what are you talking about? I don't feel like they are doing a great job at convincing us that the tools that we have today are much different, that we won't just need humans like I just don't see like a coherent path. Other don't worry, we're building utopia. Don't worry about IT just give us money.

That's the thing, right? Just give us money. Is that why dara at this is that way same road is is that way more conditional route .

is we can never know for certainly they say out loud, this is why I wrote this. And I think, you know, it's sort of my job to look at this and not just take IT at face value because when I read IT, I thought, well, anthropic is reportedly ly looking for finding right now in the competition has never been more fierce. Everyone is leaving open a eye to build an even safer A I company every day memoranda.

Their CTO is reportedly making her own company. And then another VP of researchers there might also be making their own company. And that's just like in the last month.

So you have to compete for money, you have to compete for talent. You have to compete for compute, to a lesser extent. But money in talent are really works out right now.

And safety is not like the sexist pitch. I do believe that these AI executives believe what they're saying, that they're going to build utopia. I think why dara released his blog at the time that he did, which was out of step for anthropic, he says at the top, we don't usually do this. I think IT does have a lot to do with competition in market pressures, in funding.

We need to take a quick break, will get back.

Think scaling AI is hard. Think again with watts and x, you can deploy A I across any environment above the clouds, helping pilots navigate flights and on lots of clouds, helping employees automate tasks on prem, so designers can access proprietary data and on the edge, so remote bank tellers can assist customers. What's the networks anywhere so you can scale AI everywhere? Learn more I dot com flash watch x IBM let's create support .

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We're back with verge senior AI reporter Kelly Robinson before the break. We are talking about anthropic CEO dario notes, very long, very intense bug post, discussing the benefits of super intelligent AI. But a big part of developing super intelligence A I is safety for A I to benefit humanity.

IT needs to be safe. You'll hear A I researchers talk about this using the word alignment. A I needs to be aligned with humanity and our best interests.

But what does that even mean to develop safe? A I, to big question. And that's like such a big deal.

Anthropic, which was the highest profile of the safer AI companies, is starting to talk more about how a superintelligent A I could change the world and not just focusing on how IT mick wrong. What's how about safety broadly? And then I want to talk about anthropic specifically.

So the idea of A I safety is what? What we built, the reasoning robot that can take action in the world all by itself. That thing had Better be aligned with us, right?

IT had Better follow the rules we had for IT opening eye famously overthrows same altman for twenty five minutes because their board thinks that he's not trustworthy. But now he's back and then everyone's quitting because they want to start safer A I startups. What is going on there is opening. I just not building a safe eye is is not safe enough. What are the .

dynamics that's funny because I wrote about this, I said opening eye is no longer research lab IT is attack company like everyone else. And I had um researchers reach out to me and disagree. My take is that it's like academic experts, like a product manager at meta, there are extremely different people.

So accompanying was started to do deep research on A I filled with a lot of academics and incredibly smart people who just wanted to do that research. They are not exactly looking to work fast, break things, build products. That's not exactly why a lot of them with their and they might deem the market pressures to build these products on these powerful models might deem that as unsafe.

IT is just a physical hand to be IT is that tribal ism everyday? And some people like I don't care. I think it's really cool that we can build products for everyone to use on these l ms.

That we have spent millions of dollars in so much time building. So I think the people who are leaving because they deem OpenAI not safe, it's a debate. And unfortunately, OpenAI is not very transparent in their process is. So it's hard to deem from an outside of the point of view, we have to rely on these people leaving and saying it's not .

safe to culture of these new companies and say we're safer. How are they measuring safety? Are is just everyone is saying IT so we believe IT is there a test is really an S A T for A I safety.

There is a whole lot of benchMarks. And I got to write an article about reward hacking, which was my favorite thing, which basically the A I lying to you, really fun stuff. So yeah, they do a whole bunch of benchMarks.

They do a whole bunch of safety test. My opinion here, what i'm cleaning from this, is that safety is moving slow and thoughtful. Livers is moving fast to launch things .

I think a lot of people see the A, I, safety debate is don't make racist pictures and rock whatever. Don't let G, M, I make racist photos, and they're going to pull IT down. We're going to make sure we don't do IT.

And there is just a combination of content, moderation and prompt engineering that feels very familiar. That debate feels very familiar. And then there's the bigger problem, which is what if these things take actions that we don't want them to take because we've given them control.

We have given control of the electrical grid to A I, and we know it's safe, which is the promise of the age system. And he feels that we can solve the first one. yeah. So how on earth or we're going going to solve the biggest one?

yeah. And I think that you can see why these researchers are so sensitive to a change in equal liberum and why they're like kay opening eye is not safe if we've got to go to anthropic, which takes these dangers much more seriously.

And I think the broader public doesn't exactly see these dangers because if you can count the number of hours in strawberry, how is that going to destroy the world? But a certain subset of these people take IT very seriously. But no, I don't know how we get there.

So it's like what anthropic specifically dara post particularly interesting because anthropic has the safety reputation because they were the first of their kind to leave open an eye and say we're building a safer one. But the post is, hey, i'm still building agi even though we have this reputation, even though I want to go slow and even though we care about safety and chasing the same goal is OpenAI. Why do you think you trying to walk that line right now?

I think that it's important to sell a utopia and a disturbia is harder to sell. That was my take reading IT, because I have yet to see this from anthropic since they were born. We're going to build this europa.

It's been mostly we need to slow down in that tumor sort of personality that we've adopted. I think IT IT really just has to come down to market pressures. They have to compete.

They have to be as cool as sam altman en. It's the drama, the intrigue, the building utopia. It's where you'd want to put your money, you might want to work.

You wrote about darius post. You wrote in that piece. Anthropic is looking to raise at a forty billion dollar valuation opening.

I just raise six point six billion dollars. Is all this money just for individual G. P. S. What is funny on them?

Well, researchers cost millions and millions of dollars at this point because they are in such small supply. And there was a story not that long ago that mark zg. Berg was emAiling researchers directly to recruit them.

So there there's a lot of at stake for researchers. So they're getting a lot of money. That's a huge chunk. And yes, GPU cloud compute IT caused so much money to train these models.

I had like in this just in conversation about this, to like, imagine you leaving your A C on all the time at home and then thousand x that you already know what what your bill looks like when you legal A C on too long. IT is so expensive to call these G P S, to run them all day long. And then people are also using your products, which are run on large language models that run on these compute.

So that's expensive as well. It's very, very expensive Operation. And IT eats up money because they're not making much money. Yeah.

that's the other part of this. However, any these companies going to make money, how is topic to make money?

I wrote about this in terms of agents, that's what everyone's building. Google, anthrops, OpenAI, there are all building agents. So that's kind of what we've been talking about.

This autonomous AI that can do your work for you, that could book travel for you, sea, I think that this is the next thing that they believe will be able to show off that these large language models are useful and can also charge for IT. Do I actually think that they're going to be profitable anytime soon? No, I don't think that's coming anytime soon.

All these fundraising moments are happening right on top of each other, right? opening. I just raise X, A, I S raising.

Obviously, anthropic is looking. Is there a reason is coincidence? Life cycle, these .

companies? No, I think that you're just running out of money. I think if they wanna build the next frontier models, like da says himself that we are reaching models are going to take a hundred billion dollars to train like they they just need that money to train the next frontier models.

And also, these vcs really want to see the next GPT five, right? So they need to rush quickly to get this compute to spend this money and they're just burning through IT. Is there any chance .

of these things you're going to run out of money before they raise again? But if we're burning IT that faster need to raise this much IT IT does feel like these lines might converge faster than anyone hopes.

Yes, I think so. I wouldn't say that i'm so well versed in funding in finance, but I think I can do Normal math. And if they are losing billions of dollars hand over fist and they're only raising six point six billion dollars, you're not making a profit.

You're kind of screwed. You're going to run out of money. I don't think any of these companies are gonna go under, but the smallest companies that don't have a microsoft are an amazon to find them. I think that those are the companies that are going to suffer that we've already seen that with like inflection.

For example, when I come back to that and how much these companies are reliant on the big companies because there is a lot of complication there. But just big picture here we are, famous tex eo, or writing manifest to about building digital god so they can somehow spread democracy. And i'm getting that this is all just deployed to raise money vibe from you. Is that that simple? Is a that cynical?

No, I do believe that altman in dari o actually believe that this is how air I is going to change the world. I do believe that the researchers who spend day and day out building this technology believe that the future, I think that the timing of dari OS blog, it's weird. It's just weird.

It's like, okay, well, obviously this seems tied to the fact that you need to raise a lot of money. And X, A, I just raised the most that anyone's ever raised, and then OpenAI raises the most that anyone's raised. Everyone is trying to build the next biggest model and the costs a lot of money and saying we're going to be really slow and chill and that that doesn't really make people excited to invest.

And the devils evoke position is, does he really need to do that? Does he need to read a blog to get people to invest? It's already so busy, and I just come back to the competition. Competition has never gotten stuffer.

Let me ask you one very dumb question. I do you want to talk about the big companies and how they are related, told this both anthropic open. I dressed them.

They're all kind of built on elms, right? Like they're built on one very foundational technology. And the ideas that we just throw more data and compute in time and electricity and money at IT, we can just get there.

We're gonna horse power away into an H. G. I. Then I met others, Young, the coon, who's like, no, you can.

There are some other people who are very sceptical of this approach. Can they do IT? Is this? Is this the right path?

Is this even worth IT, worth its I mean. I there's again inso nocte so many ways to be argued, and I think that's what I find. The hardest part about covering A I is that IT is just so easy to argue about the smallest things all day.

They believe that you have to completely change the structure which we build l ms, to reach agi. And yes, that this is not the path to take to reach. Very smart people like yn believe that, no, you can't just horse power your way through building. And I think my answers I would like to see, I would like to see proof. I am just asking .

every day for proof and we .

don't have a show me a path to digital god. No, it's just like there's no path. It's just like let's just keep go in this way and that should be fine.

Yeah I just try to me that if you're you know a and and horror is limited partner, you you are probably in the order of like a college pension fund and like so digital god, just if we just give you all the money, you will make digit and that's going to return us how? And I doesn't see my thought loop is closing very fast. No one's making money, and we need more money to build the next thing with which might make us us money by putting on the travel age inside of business. Somewhere in there is a bunch of question works, and I IT seems uncleared to me how any of that gets resolved for us.

ann, for the listener's. I think that this is also really unclear to the people who are building IT in investing in IT. Because if you look at opening a eyes mission statement on their website, IT has like a big pink box that says anything you invest should be .

considered a donation.

So IT is clear that like investors were like, ah yeah, i'll be fine and now they have to change from a nonprofit to a four profit because they're like, actually, I don't want to just donate. I want some money back. So that's we're they're figuring that out.

We have take another great break. We will be back.

Think scaling AI is hard. Think again with watts and x, you can deploy A I across any environment above the clouds, helping pilots navigate flights and on lots of clouds, helping employees automate tasks on prem, so designers can access proprietary data and on the edge, so remote bank tellers can assist customers. What's the next works anywhere? So you can scale AI everywhere.

Learn more IBM dot com slash. What's the next? I, B, M? Let's create.

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Move back with verge senior AI porter, Kelly Robinson before the break, you heard Kelly mentioned a big piece of news from earlier this month that open I shifting towards a four profit structure that was part of open as recent six point six billion funding round. The switch to a four profit company has to happen within two years. Or those investors can ask for their money back.

This is important for a very dict t reason. If you're coto, listen, you know that structure is important, how companies like anthropic and OpenAI or organized who their investors are, how they plan to make money and where all the computer comes from, we will have a huge impact on the kinds of products they build. IT will affect how fast they released those products to stay competitive and whether safety will take even more of a backseat in the future.

If you believe that A I is going to usher in a utopia, is sam almond daro a motivates? Well, IT increasingly looks like utopia depends on major cloud computing providers continue to write the checks in whether other investors think there's a massive pay out waiting for them on the other side of the race to build agi. So I think that brings us to now basically open eye is converting to a four profit IT.

Seems that very contentious. Just before we started speaking, there was both a big new ork time story and a big world street journal story, but different aspects of that process, and mostly open the eyes relationship with microsoft. So how much equity will microsoft get an exchange for already being the biggest investor sasha donated to open a high right now? And then how much more compute and how much more dependency will microsoft have an opening? I verse is going in some way.

There's a lot in there. Uh, my favorite piece is that if open, I does build. Agit gets out of its microsoft contract, which is cited as a goal, as an incentive for opening.

We should build digital gods so we can get out of the s microsoft al, which is hoyer. It's just on its face. Hoyer is.

And then there's also people at open who apparently complaining that microsoft won't give IT enough compute so can train the next model and actually built A G. I. What is going on here is this, just those two companies had a weird falling out after some that a student came back.

Is IT open ized totally dependent on microsoft? And there's friction there. If microsoft goes away and open, I continue to succeed.

So open eye needed money because elan musk was a copout der OpenAI and said, actually, I am not into this more by. And he took all his money with him, and they really need money. And microsoft save them.

And now open the eyes and awkward position where they really need microsoft to survive because that's who provides the book of their computer. They have an exclusive cloud partnership with them. So now we have gotten to a point where, oh my gosh, microsoft does not have enough compute.

So they are not happy about that. Microsoft made one concession in this exclusive agreement to let them make a partnership with oracle to get some more compute, which was rare. But yes, altman was ousted last year, and I think that really pissed off saudia.

I think he was having a nice thanksgiving break, and I think that he had to go on c nbc and defend open eye. And he was like, we are just too dependent on this company for the future, what I believe is the future of technology. So we've gotta create a backup plan.

And I think that's where inflection comes in, and that's what some of the new york times article gets into most staff of salem. And who was the C E O of inflection is now the C E O of A I at microsoft. I just think it's so messy. They both want to build the future and they both depend on each other.

IT seems like broadly open up being dependent on people writing ever bigger checks in getting more and more asia compute time. That's a huge dependency for a company, right? They are completely .

dependent on these cloud companies, and they are realizing that and they're trying to figure out how to be slightly less dependent. I mean, sam altman is apparently going around the world trying to pitched his own multitrillion dollar chip start up so he can own this portion of his business. I think they're scared that they're so dependent on microsoft.

So open I really pending on microsoft anthropic. Is that same kind of relationship with amazon, right? Yes, they're paying their bills mattison. Ed.

I I don't think IT is as testing, not that i've heard, not that's been reported. IT seems like anthrops pic is moving a lot slower, is a lot less dramatic. There's not the boardroom crews or you know the splashy releases ahead of google, I O.

There is not the border room cues is like a real just a real measure of the company.

right? exactly. So no, I don't think it's a testy, but I think anthropic seems to be really pulling their punches a lot more carefully and trying to avoid stepping in mass IT.

Do you think that the state of industry and at the tone of these big pitches is related to these business pressures? Hey, we have to start ship in products of people, pay forth scale to prove out that there's demand for all this investment. Hey, there's ferocious competition for talent, hay or big cloud provider benefactors might start to wonder if they should just build their own products. IT seems like that's a lot of anxiety that is being expressed as hopes we might destroy the world if we succeed.

I was thinking about this for the people who wanted argue with me, about how I don't really believe in agr in such. I think if these are your massage and you don't also just notice them as business men, to think that this is not a full of tactical decisions like these blog posts are not tactically written with tons of factors in mind is just ludicrous.

I think there would be a lot easier to focus on those technology pressures when you didn't have the business pressures because you need the money, you need the talent to move your technology forward. And these people are like throwing elbows for this kind of thing. Again, like the berg writing emails, X A I holding recruiting parties in 3Frances go and inviting OpenAI employees。 It's testy out here, and you have to do anything to fight your way in.

Do you think we should trust these folks? Uh, that's a tough one. But my instinct answers no, right?

Where reporters, we shouldn't trust them, but they are trying to build things that products are shipping. You can use them to whatever it's something you want to use them. They have a vision you can believe IT or not IT. Are they generally trustworthy in your interact with them are the people that work? Were the people who work for them.

This is so funny. Back to that episode on travellers. M, I was talking about that. I listen to a podcast about advice against travellers. M, was like, you should probably just take people the word, I believe that they believe what they're saying. And I thought that's a great way to look at IT.

I do believe that they think that they're building a and going going to change the world in such in terms of trust, I think IT is my jo B2Be ske ptical. I don't think I can read a blog and tell our readers they are definitely going to do this and and just ignore all of the other factors at play here. I think that they have to earn that trust.

I think that this is sort of a pitch we have seen for years. Look at all of the times tech executives have promised to cure death, to give us to mars to like to fix all of these elements. And here we still are with all of these elements.

So I think they just have to earn IT, and I think that's okay. They can't just demand today that we all trust them because it's kind of a damaged reputation. And silicon valley, it's okay. You're going have to earn IT.

There's two ways to keep folks in line. One is for ocian market competition, then people just devote with their dollars. The other way, as politics were, people vote with their votes.

I'm not sure that the market competition is producing much alignment for lack of Better word like no ones picking in a access to right out because it's quote and a safer. They're just picking one front of them and maybe one day, they're just picking the one that's preloaded on their iphone. On the politics side, california had a bill and got newsom just we told IT IT would have made these products safer. Anthropic didn't oppose IT, the dorm said there was some furious opposition. Is the politics is is doomed where we were .

relying on the market in terms of S P ten forty seven, which is the regulation california, that was a really difficult one because california is filled with these technologists who do not exactly strict regulation right out of the gate and governor govern. Newson was lobbied pretty hard against passing that, and people are threatening to leave.

And so much of the california economy does rely on these big spenders coming here and building their technologies. So time to call for a new regulation. I think that's going to be an upheld battle. I think it's going to rely on federal regulation, and I think that remains to be seen if you'll get that right. I don't know if they have a history of getting that right.

And I think, you know, I wasn't a journalist when section to thirty was passed, but I think that has caused a lot of unease that we should pass something now to control this before things get worse. And we have no control over the technology that runs our society. I get that unease.

I just want to clear. I was sixteen years old, one section, two thirty, and not that old. Sorry, but IT is true that we live in the shadow of that law and people have many, many opinions of IT yeah here IT just seems a lot simpler er right like I feel like we know how to write product like itabhi laws. Is that just too hard or the technology is too good at claiming that no government can ever possibly understand their work?

Well, I think that we're trying to like your hands on the slipper fish is so noisy. I don't know if the people who are building this and the people who are regulating this know exactly what to do to fix something that is so new. If feels like trying to regulate facebook when I was still a harbor social media platform, it's just hard to figure out exactly how this will change the world.

And i'm not sure promising utopia is gonna help. I don't know of promising to stop a is gna help. We just don't know for sure how this is how this is going to shake .

out the kind of sounds like the fact that the big tech companies have a ton of control is the regulating part of the market right now. It's not avenues. It's not whatever by the minister.

Station executive orders were passed. It's not any other law. It's not competition between them. Even they also they say for it's maybe just touch an adella saying, well, you see out of control, i'm going to build my own or is andy jc saying I want to use A W S. For something else IT seems like that is actually the place for the most control over these companies will be expressed is that way to trust is such as a good guy is so funny because .

there is this line in silicon valley, the T, V show that I quote in my article is like, I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to live in a world where someone makes the world a Better place than we do. That's where we're at right now.

Why should we be forced to trust these big tech executives? Like why why does that have to be in the hands of just a handful of big tech executives? Have they really proven that they can be trusted with digital? God.

I just asking, yeah, I, I.

I don't think so. So where .

we're at right now, just to sum this up, is IT feels like everyone is racing towards building the same kinds of products against the same vision is faster and solar rates. Some people think they shouldn't because they might destroy the world.

But if we get IT right, everything will be groove and no one's really in charge who is to say whether ellia covers company, which is literally, I believe, called safe super intelligence, is actually safer than anthropic. Like there's no there's just a lot of people claiming this thing that they think the market wants, that people might wanted is worth the money. But there's I don't think the market broadly understands that IT even wants that or how to measure IT or had to say IT. And in the other choice you have is some other body of people, whether that's just the providers of cloud computing or whether it's the government could make some decisions and they seem not motivates or not capable to make those decisions.

Two things. I don't think anyone was going to choose a saper facebook. They just want the one that, as you said, is in front of them, the one that works Better that when they enjoy using. So I think that's how that's onna shake out.

I don't think the Normal person, my sidlinch gna care, which one saper, who decides if they're safe, I really do like the idea of them having to talk to the government and be completely and fully transparent about what their models are capable of in what those tests are doing because I find pause that they're able to be like, not fine, like we tested, IT told the chill. They do have some third party researchers, but it's not as transparent as IT could be. So yeah, I think regulation would be a good place to start of the government having their own researchers and be like, okay, we are going to test this model for safety. We're not just going to rely on these people to test themselves. And that's how you prove if this is safe, if these are people we can trust.

what's the next three companies, which are people we looking at for?

I think that both are gonna really keen on getting reasoning models out there to the public with different speeds. They want something that can code faster, that can reason for you reliably. I got a demo where getting back to agents is I got a demo from opening a eye where they called a fake desert shop to place in order for them.

But I did get some things wrong. That's the future that these companies are seeing is autonomous agents that can reason. So I think that's what we're going to continue seeing. I was promised by oai that will start seeing those agents in the child as seen as early twenty twenty five.

So will see at, well, i'm of me hidden, no way from them, safe, fully banker somewhere else. Thank you still coming in the show.

Thank you.

Thanks again to Carry for joining me on a show, and thank you for listening. Hope you enjoy IT. And please let us know what you think a chill digital got should look like.

And curious, do you think we have those thoughts? You can even ask that to code the verge accompany. We really do real emails where you can help me up directly on threats and map reckless through they also a tiktok chicken out.

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And if you really like the show, that is what that pasture of you decodes. The production, the verge. And part of the boxing of procter network or producers are kate cox.

And next stat or editor is Kelly, right? Are supervising producers James, the decoder music is my breakfasts sooner. Let's see next time.

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