Why Mark Zuckerberg wants to end the smartphone era
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Hello, welcome to decoder. I mean, I patel, editor in chief of the virgin and decoder is my show about big ideas, other problems. We have a very special episode today.

It's become a decoded tradition every fall to have verge deputy editor alexy interview metal mark sucker on the show, IT met a connect and there is a lot to talk about. This year, the company announced new developments in A R, V R in the fast growing world of consumer smart classes. I it's good.

Have you? Thanks for even make good to be back.

You got to try on some prototype A R glasses. You got to sit down with suck. What's on here?

yes. So the big headline this year out of connect is hyon, which are A R glasses that meta has been building for a really, really long time. Some important context up front is right before we started this interview, we had literally just demo a ryan together.

I think i'm the first journalist, the first outsider to do that with soccer buron camera that's on the verger's youtube. But yeah, we had just come fresh off the demo and literally walked in the podcast studio and SAT down and record. So IT was fresh on our minds and that's what we started.

The ryan is very much the story of A R as a category, uh, is something that meta hoped would be a consumer product and decided towards the end of its development that IT wouldn't be because of how expensive that is to make. So instead, we've turned into a fancy demo that people like me are getting around connect this year. And it's really meant to signify that, hey, we have been building something the whole time.

We finally have something that works. It's just not something that we can ship at commercial scale. It's in my mind, a marker of where we are actually in the development of our glasses. And let me honestly to feel like it's finally getting really close to being commercial big mainstream.

This is the first thing that struck me listening to the interview is that zc feels like he has control of the next platform shift. That platform shift is gonna glasses and that he can actually take the fight to apple and google in a way that he write couldn't when mat was a Younger company, when I was just .

facebook yeah and there are seeing a lot of early traction with the meta y bands. We talked a lot about that their expanded partnership with elsa oda, why he thinks this really stories I were congeries out of europe could do to smart glasses, what samsung dead to smart phones. And for korea, ah he sees this is becoming a huge millions of units a year market. And I think everyone here the verge can see that the ray bands are an early hit and the meta has tapped onto something here that may end up being pretty big and the long run, which is just not overpacking tech into glasses that look that do a handful of things really well and met, is expanding on that rapidly this year of some other A I features that we also talked about.

He has got into that in depth of. The other thing that really struck me about this interview is that doctor seems lose. He seems confident. He seems almost defined in a way.

Yeah, he's on a lot of self reflection, you can tell. And in the back half of this interview, we get into a lot of the brand stuff around meta, how he's worked through the last few years where he sees the company going now, which is, in his own words, non partisan and even admitting kind of in that, that he may be not even thinking that a company like meta can be on parsons.

But he's going to try to play a back seat role to all of the discourse that really engulf the company for the last ten years. And we get into all of the dici staff, we get into social media's link to team mental health, we get into camera genetics and how he thinks the company he was unfairly blamed for IT in hindsight, yeah, I would say he's, um this is a news zuker. G, and I was fascinating to hear him talk about all of this in retrospect. C.

yeah, the one thing I says, he was in a very talk tive mood with you. And you let him talk. There are some answers and they are particular around the harms to teens from social media where he says the data isn't there.

I'm very curious how parents you're going to react to his comments in the subsides. Me also just get into IT. Here's alex interviewing .

metal mark suker.

Mark, we just tried oran together. Yeah, we were fresh off of IT. IT feels like true. A R glasses are finally getting closer and is a product that you'll have been working on for five plus you almost there. So take me back to the beginning. When you started the project, when I started in research, like what were you thinking about what was the goal for IT?

I I think a lot of IT goes all the way back to our relationship with mobile platforms and all that know we have lived through one major platform transition already because we started on web, right? Not not on mobile. Mobile phones and smart phones kind of got started around the same time.

Facebook and and kind of early social media was getting started. So I didn't really get to play role in that platform transition. But going through IT, where we weren't born on mobile, we kind of have the awareness that, okay, where is the thing? Mobile is a thing that is different.

There are strength and weaknesses of IT. There's this continuum of computing or now you have A A mobile device that you can take with you all the time and that's amazing, but it's small kind of post you away from other interactions. Those things are not great. But the ressort of this recognition that just like there's the transition from computers to mobile, mobile is not going to be the end of the line.

So as soon as we started becoming like a more and I guess, as a stable company, like once we found our footing on mobile and we weren't like clearly going to go a business or something like that as I O K, let's start planting some seeds for what we think could be the future, right? It's like mobile is already kind of getting defined by two thousand twelve, two thousand fourteen ish. IT was generally too late to to really shape that platform in a meaningful women.

We we had some experiments succeeded or or go anywhere. So pretty quick. That was a good we should focus on the future because just like there is the shift from desktop to mobile, new things are going to be possible in the future.

So what is that? I think the kind of simplest version of IT, it's basically what you started saying with our ryan. But it's it's like the vision is a Normal pair of glasses that can do two really fundamental things.

One is put holograms in the world to deliver this realistic sense of presence, like you are there with another person or in another place, or maybe you're physically with a person. But just like we did, you can pop a virtual pale, you know, whatever. You can work on things together.

You can sit the coffee shop, pull up your whole workstation of different monitors. You know, you can be on a filter in the back seat of a car and pull up a full string movie. There's and and like, okay, all these things, great computing, full sense of presence, like your there with people know about where they are. Thing too is it's the ideal device for A I.

And the reason for that is because glasses are sort of uniquely positioned for you'd be able to let them see what you see and hear what you hear and give you very subtle feedback back to where they can speaking your ear or they can have silent input that that kind of shows up on the, on the glasses that that other people can see and doesn't take you away from the world around you. And I think that that is all gone, be really profound. Now we got started with this.

I had thought that kind of the hologram part of this was going to be possible before ai. So IT sort of an interesting twist of fate that the AI part is actually possible before the holograms are are really able to be mass produced, a kind of affordable Price. But that was sort of the vision.

I think that it's pretty easy to wrap your head around. And there's already you know billion to two billion people who wear glasses on a daily basis. Just like, you know, everyone who did nap smart phones were kind of the first people to upgrade two smartphones.

I think everyone who has glasses is pretty quickly going to upgrade to smart glasses over the next decade. And then I think it's going to start being really valuable. And a lot of other people who aren't wearing glasses today are going to end up wearing them too.

That's kind of the simple version. And then I think as we've developed this, there are all these sort of more nuance directions that have emerged, too. So we've started, you know what? Well, that was kind of the full version of what we wanted to build.

There are all these things is that we said, okay, well, well, maybe it's it's really hard to build Normal look and glasses that can do holograms at affordable Price points. So what parts of that can we take on? And that's where we did the partner ship with us, alor ox oda.

So it's okay before you have a display, you can get Normal looking glasses that can have a camera, that can have a microphone. Great audio can capture content. You can stream video at this point.

But the most important feature this point is the ability to access, meet A I and just a full AI there multi model because that has camera and I mean, product is starting at three hundred dollars. And you know, initially I kind of thought, hey, this is sort of on the technology path to building full holograph glasses at this point. Actually just think both they're going to exist long term.

I think they're gone to be people who want the full holographic glasses, and I think that they're going to be people who prefer kind of the superior form factor or lower Price of a device where they are primarily optimizing forgetting ai also think this can be a range of things in between. And right, there's the full kind of field of view that we you just saw, right, seventy degree es really wide field of view for glasses, but I knew there are other products in between that. two.

There's like a heads up display version no, for that you probably just need twenty thirty degrees. You can't do the full kind of world holograms where you're interacting with things like you're not not like the pong and thirty degree field of view, but you can communicate with the eye, you can text your friends, you can get directions, you can see the content that you are capturing. So I think that there's a lot there that's going to be compelling.

And that's, I think to be at each up longest continuum, from display list to small display to kind of full holographic, you're packing more technology. And so each step up is going to be a little more expensive, is going to have a little more constraints on the form factor, though I think we'll get them all to be attractive. You'll be able to do the the kind of simpler ones and much smaller foreign tors permanently.

And then of course, there's the mixed reality had sets, which kind of took a different direction, which is going to do the same vision by on that. We said, okay, well, we're gonna try to fit into a glasses form factor for that one. We're going to say, okay, we're going to really go for all the compute that we want.

And we're going to say, okay, this is going be more of like a headset 点 goggle swarm factor。 And my guess is that that's going to be a thing long term too because there are bunch of uses where people want the full emersion and you you're sitting your desk and working for a long time of time, you might want the more computing power than you're going. Yeah, but but I I I think that there's no doubt that kind of what you saw with ran is the I think kind of quite a central vision of what people, what at least kind of I thought and and continue to think is going to be the next multibillion person major computing platform. And then kind of all these other things are going to get built out around IT.

It's my understanding that you originally hold or I would be a consumer products when you first set out to build.

Yeah, yeah. Iran was meant to be our first consumer product. And we weren't sure that if we were going to be able to pull that off. I mean, in general, it's probably turned out significantly Better than our kind of fifty, fifty estimates of what I would be. But we didn't get there on everything that we wanted to.

I think we we still wanted to be a little smaller, a little brighter, like A A little bit higher resolution and a lot more affordable before we've to put IT out. There's a product and and look, we have line of site all. So I think we will probably have the thing that was gonna the v two end up being the consumer product. And we're going to use a ryan with developers to basically cultivate the software experience that way by the time we're ready to ship something .

that can be more different. But to be clear, you're not selling at all. You made the call. I think he was and is going to just be internal kind of dev kit. How did you feel about making that call? Was there any part of you that was like, man, I really wish this could have just been the consumer product we had built.

Yeah I I always want to ship stuff quickly in in all that, but I think was the right thing on this product. There's a pretty clear set of constrains that I think you want to head, especially around the form factor, right? I mean, IT IT is very helpful for us.

That sort of chunky er glasses are kind of ascendent in fashion world because that allows us to build glasses that can be fashionable but also tech forward. But even so, i'd say you these are unmistakably glasses. They're reasonable.

comfortable there, one hundred grams.

But I mean, I think we inspired of building things that like look really good, right? And and I think this is like good glasses, but I I, I wanted to be a little, a little smaller, who can fit within, like really fashionable, all right? When people see the ray bands, there's no compromise on fashion.

It's like part of why I think people like them is you get all the functionality. But even when you're not using at their great glasses, then I think for the future version of ryan, that's the target too. We want to make IT so that you know most of the time you're going through the day, you're not computing right and or its or something is happening in the background or something.

But so he just needs to be good in order for you to kind of want to keep IT on your face. And I feel like we're almost there. I think we ve made we've made more progress than anyone else in the world than i'm aware of.

Didn't quite hit my bar. And similarly on Price, this will be more expensive than the ravens right then. There's just a lot more tech that's going in them.

But we do want to a have to be within a consumer Price point. This was outside that range. So I wanted to wait until we could get to that range in order to have something ship.

Are you imagining that the first commercial version, whenever IT is in the next couple few years, will IT B A developer focus product that you're saying publicly you wanted to be a consumer ready? That's why i'm asking about the strategy because apple snap, others have decided to do developer focus place and get the hardware kind of going with developers early. But you're kind of are using you're skipping .

that and you just stand. We are using this as a developer kit and just primarily internally and maybe with a handful of partners OK. But I mean, I think that this point, meta is by far the kind of premier developer of augmented reality and virtual and mixed reality software and hardware in the world.

So you can think about as a development kit. But we just have a lot of that talent in house. And then we also have well developed partnerships with a lot of folks is externally who we can go to and work with them as well.

So I don't think we need to go announce a devote ate that like that kind of arbitrary developers can go by to get access to the town that we need to go build up the platform. I think we're kind of in a place where we can work with partners and and do that, but that's absolutely what we're going to do over the next few years. We're going to home the experience and figure out what we need to do to really nail at one threatening .

a lot has been written about how much you're spending on reality labs. And if you I think you probably can't have an exact number. But if you were to mate the cost of just building a ran over the last ten years, are we talking five plus billion more than that? Yeah probable probably.

Yeah yeah. But I mean, overall, for reality labs, for a while, a lot of people thought of all of that budget is going towards virtual and mixture. And I actually think we've said publicly that our glasses programs are are a bigger budget than our virtual and mixed reality programs, but that was across all of them, right? So that's the kind of full A R that the display, those glasses I got the work were going to do on on ray ban.

And and we just announced the expanded partnership with luxo da as luxo da great company, we have had a great experience working with them. They designed so many great glasses, and I think they working with them to do even more. This can be really exciting. So there there's a lot more to do there on on all of these things.

How does this partnership work and this renews that you just dead with them. How's IT structured? What what does this still look like?

I think he was more of just kind of commitment from the companies that we're feeling pretty good about how this is going, and we're gone to build a lot more glasses together. Part of the way that works is um you know rather than having sort of doing one generation and then but designing the next generation only by having a longer term partnership that allows the teams to not just have to worry about one thing at a time, then like, okay, is this one going to be good and .

then how we build .

on that for the next one. Now we can start like a multiyear road map of many different devices, knowing that we're gonna be working together for a long time. So i'm optimistic about that, that sort of how we work internally.

We don't just and sometimes when you're early on, you you want to learn from each device launch, but there are things that you are committed to. I don't think you want the team to feel like, okay, if we don't get the short term milestone, then like we're gna cancel the whole thing there are. So are you buying .

a stake and elsewhere looks? Yeah.

I think we've talked about investing in them. It's it's not going to be A A kind of major thing, say it's more of of a symbolic thing. We we want to have to be a long term partnership. And as part of that, I thought that this would be kind of a nice gear, and I fundamentally believe in them a lot. I think I think that they are going to go from being a the premier glasses company in the world to, I think, one of the major technology companies in the world.

My vision for for them and how I think about IT is that if you think about like how samsung in in korea made IT of that korea became one of the main hubs of building phones in the world. I think I think that this is probably kind of one of the best shots for europe, in italy in particular, to become a major hub for manufacturing in building and designing the next major category of computing platforms overall. So and I think that they're kind of all in on that now.

And and it's been the interesting question because you they have they have such a good business and such a deep competence and in the areas and i've gotten more than appreciation of have a strong of a technology, the company they are in their own way, right? Designing lenses, designing the materials that you need to make fashionable glasses that can be light enough but also kind of like feel good. They bring a huge amount that I think is um people in kind of our world, the tech world ably don't necessarily see.

But but I think that they're really well set up for the future. So I I believe in the partnership, i'm really except by the work that we're doing together. And fundamentally, I think that that's just gonna a massively successful company in the future.

Is IT set up to where they control the designs? Or and you provide the text tack? Or do you collaborate on the design? I think we elaborate on.

on everything. So it's actually I mean, part of working together is you kind of a build a joint culture over time.

There are a lot of really sharp people over there who I think IT took maybe a couple versions of us, us really again, and appreciation for how each of us approached things because they really think about things from this, like fashion manufacturing, lens selling, optical devices perspective, then we obviously come added from our kind of consumer electronics A I software perspective. But I think over time, we just kind of appreciate each other's perspectives on things a lot more. And I mean, I am not constantly talking to them about things to get their ideas on different things.

And but you know, when partnerships are working well, when you reach out to them to get their opinion on things that are not actually currently in the scope of what you're working on together. And because I I do that frequently with with roca, who runs the wearables, and Francesco, who their CEO in R. T.

Does that too with would like a large part of the working group over there. It's it's a good crew. They they share good values.

They really sharp. And I said, I believe in them a lot. It's very, very successful partnership company.

We need to take a quick break. I'll be right back.

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We're back with medico mark sockery discussing the company's ray bands smart glasses partnership in the future of A R.

How many rave and many have also so far?

I don't know. We've given a .

number on that.

But yeah, it's it's going very well. You know one of the things I think is interesting is we we underestimate in the band you know one thing that is very different in the world of consumer electronics and software is um there are a fewer kind of supply and strengthen software.

There are some I mean like some of the stuff that were rolling out like the voice on ma ai, we need to meet IT as we're ruling and out because we need to make sure we have ough inference capacity to handle IT. But fundamentally, we've resolve that in weeks. But for manufacturing at cyc, you make these concrete decisions.

I go here, we're setting up board manufacturing lines or six. And you know each one there was a big up front capex s investment and you're basically deciding up front the velocity which could be able to generate supply before you know what the demand is. So on this one, we thought dad rave that matter was probably going to sell three or five times more then the first versions did.

And we just dramatically underestimated what the so now we're in this position where it's actually been somewhat hard investigated with the real demand is because they're sold out and you can get them so you can get them like then how do you know where where the actual curve s but we're basically get to the point where that's resolved, where the supply um now we kind of adjusted. We made the decision to build more, more manufacturing lines that took some time to do IT their online. Now we're kind of it's it's not just being able to make them to get them to all, all the stores and get the distribution right.

We feel like that's in a tty good place now. So i'd say over the rest of this year, we're going to start getting a real sense of the demand. But well, that's going on.

The glass is keep getting Better because of over their A I updates. So the hardware doesn't ustani change even though we keep shipping new frames and new type of they're adding more transitions lenses because people want wear them indoors. And that's an interesting thing because some people sunglasses a little more directionally.

So I think a lot more people early on, we're thinking, hey, the ultra experiment with this with sunglasses, i'm not to make this my primary glasses. Now we're seeing a lot more people say, hey, actually really useful. I want to be able to wear them inside.

I want them to be a primary glasses. So whether that's kind of working with them through the optical channel or the transitions, that's an important part. But the AI part of this is also IT just keeps getting Better. And we talked about IT a connect, basically the ability to now know over the next few months when we roll this out, real time translations, you're travel abroad, some speaking spanish to you, you just get IT translated in the english in your year, but just roll out to more and more languages over time if we're starting with a few IT more over time.

Um I tried that. Well, actually I D tried real time, but I tried looking at a menu in french and IT translator in the english. And yeah, I was like, at the end I was like, what is euro and dollar actually? And did that too.

And then i'm also starting to see the continuum of this to horion in the sense of the utility aspects of the like I tried like you could say, look at this and remind me about IT to A P. M. tonight.

And then IT thinks with the companies. So I guess I am seeing that becoming more of a not it's not replacing the phone, but it's augmenting what I would do with my phone. And i'm wondering if the APP is a place for more of that kind of interaction as well. Whether it's like meat AI or like power, these glass is going to be more deeply tied to meet eye over time. Yeah, seems like they're getting closer and closer all the time.

Yeah, I think many I is becoming a more and more prominent feature of the glasses and there's more stuff you can do. So you mention reminders is another example like now that is just onna work and now your glasses can remind you of things.

And so so you can look at the phone number and say, call this phone .

number that IT calls on the used to add more capabilities over time and some of Better model updates, right? So like OK, now IT has lama three point two, but some of IT is is kind of softer development around IT, like reminders you don't get for free just because we updated the model that can. We have this big soft development effort and we're kind of adding features continuously and developing the ecosystem, right?

So you get more APP. So spotify and all these different things can work more natively. So the glasses just get more and more useful, which I think is also gone to increase demand over time.

And how does that interact with phones? I mean, like you said, I don't think people are getting rid of phones anytime soon. The way I kind of think about this is that when phones became the primary computing platform, we didn't get rid of computers.

We just can I shifted right? So I enough if you have this experience. But at some point in the early twenty tens, I noticed that i'd be sitting at my desk in front of my computer, and I just poured my phone to do things.

No, I think what's gonna happen, it's not like we're going to throw away our phones. But I think slowly, we're just onna start doing more things with our glasses and leaving our phones in our pockets more. And it's not like we're done with our computers.

And I think we going to be done with our phones for a while. But there's a prety clear path where you're just can use your glasses for more and more things over time. Using the glasses are also going to be able to be powered by risk based wearable ables or other wearable ables.

So you're going to wake up one day ten years and from now, and you're not having going to need to bring your phone with you now, you're still gna have a phone. But I think like more the time people going to live in their pocket or live in their bag or eventually, even in some the time, live in in their at home. And I think they're just be the sort of gradual shift to glasses becoming the main way that we do computing.

It's interesting that we're talking about this right now because I feel like phones are becoming kind of boring and stale. You know, like I I just was like looking at the new iphone and it's basically the same as the year before people are doing football. But like IT feels like people kind of run out of ideas on phones and that they're kind of at their natural estate.

And I wonder, you know, when you see something like the ray bans and how people have really gravitate to them in a way that surprised you guys and I think surprised all of us. But it's also just like people want to interact with technology in different ways. Now yeah and I think A I yes, like you said at the beginning, like the way that A I is intersected with this is just kind of like a AI thing for people that honestly, for me, I didn't expect IT to click as quickly as I did.

But like when I got White listed for the, I was like walking around my backyard and like using IT and I like, oh like it's obviously where this is going. So IT feels like we're like I was saying at the begin. IT feels like things are finally, you can see where it's going.

Where is before it's been a lot of like R N D. And talking about IT like these, the rape ends are kind of a signifier of that. And I wondering if you agree with that.

I agree, I would. I still think it's early. I think you really want to be able to not just ask the A I questions, but asked to do things. I know that it's going to reliably go do IT, and we're starting with simple things. So I saw voice control of your classes, although you can do that on phones to things like reminders, although can generally do that on forms.

But I think is the model capabilities .

grow over the next couple of generations and you get more know what people call these agents um capabilities. I think it's it's gonna art to yet pretty exciting. It's worth I I also think that all the a eyes work is going to make phones a lot more exciting.

It's the most exciting thing, I think that has happened to our family ap sode map in a long time is all of the all of the different eight things that were building. So I were any of the other companies. I think that I would trying to design what in the next few versions of iphone or google's phone should be. And I I think that there's a long and interesting road map of things that they can go do with a ee that as an active Albert, we can. So I think that that's like a pretty exciting and an interesting thing for them to go to, which I assume that they will.

On the A I A social media piece, one of the walter things that your team told me you guys are going to start doing is showing people A I generated imaging personalized to them in feed. I think it's starting as an experiment. But like if yeah, your photographer, you would see medii generating content that may be personal ed for you alongside content from the people you follow.

yeah.

And that's the idea that I been thinking about of A I and kind of invade ing social media, so to speak. Maybe don't like tod invading, but you know what I mean? And what does that do to how we how we relate to each other as humans? Like how much A I stuff and A I generated stuff is going to be filling fees in the near future in your view?

Well, here's how I come at this. So in the history of running the company and we've been building these apps for twenty years, every called three to five years, there's some new major format that comes along that it's typically additive to the experience, right? So you initially people kind of update their profiles than they were able to post status that were tax, then links, got photos early on.

Then you added videos, then with mobile and basically snap invented stories. The first version of that, and that became a pretty kind of widely used format, the whole version of short form videos. I think this is sort of a still ascendent format. But in each step along the way, you want to. Read IT like you keep on making the system richer by having more different types of content that people can share in, in different ways to express themselves.

And when you look out for the next ten years of, okay, if this trend seems to happen, whatever three, five years, whatever the faces that there are new formats, I think given th Epace o f c hange i n t he t ech i ndustry, I think you'd bet that, that continues or accelerates. And I think you would bet that probably most of the new formats are going to be kind of A I connected in some way, given that that's the kind of driving theme for the industry at this point. So given that kind of set of assumptions were sort of trying to understand what are the things that are most useful of to people within that.

There's one vein of this, which is helping people and creators make Better content using A I that think is going to be pretty clear where I just make IT that super easy for like a spring creators or advanced creators to make much Better stuff than they would be able to otherwise. That can take the form out of like our like my daughter is writing a book and he wants IT illustrated. And like we sit down together and work with medi AI and imagine to helper, come up with images to illustrate that it's a okay, that's like a thing that's like I didn't have the capability to do that proportion on a graphic designer, but now SHE kind of has that that ability.

I think the best be pretty cool. Then I think that there's a version where you have just a great diversity of AI agents that are as part of the system. And this, I think, is a big difference between our vision of AI and most of the other companies as yeah, we're building meet AI as is kind of the main assistant that you can build that sort of equivalent to, you know the singular assistant that may be like a google or an open a eye or different proxy building.

But it's not really the main thing that we're doing. You know, our main vision is that we think that they're gone to a lot of these, right? It's every business, all the hundreds of millions of small businesses. You know, just like they have a website in an email address and a social media account today, I think that they are all gonna have an A I that helps them interact with their customers in the future.

That does some combination of sales and customer support, not that I think all the creators are basically gona want some version of this that basically helps them interact with their community when they're just limited by the are lot of hours in the data interact with all messages that are coming in. And they want to make sure that they can show some love to people in their in their community. And those, I think, are just the two most obvious ones that even if we just those that many hundreds of millions, but then this is going be all this more creative stuff that's ug c that people create for that kind of wild or use cases that they want and argues, okay, these are all going to like live across these social works and beyond.

I don't think that they should just be constrained to waiting until someone messages them. I think that they're going to have their own profiles. They're going to be creating content.

People will be able to follow them if they want. You will be able to comment on their stuff. They may be able to comment on your stuff if you're connected with them. And there will obviously different, different logic rules, but that's one way that there's going to be IT is a lot more kind of AI participants in the kind of broader social constructor that we have. And then I think you get to the test that you mentioned, which is maybe the most abstract, which is just having kind of the central meta A I system, you directly generate content for you based on what we think is going to be interesting to you and putting that in your feet on that. There's been this trend over time where the feed started off as primarily and exclusively content for people.

You you followed friends, I guess, with friends early on, then I kind of brought them out to, okay, you followed to set of friends and creators and then they got to a point where the algorithm was good ough, where we're actually showing you a lot of stuff they are not following directly because in some ways that's a Better way to show you more interesting stuff and only consistent income IT to things that you've chosen to follow. And I think the next logical jump on that is a, okay, we're showing you content from your friends and creators that you're following and craters that are not following that are generating interesting things. You just add on to that a layer of OK, and we're also going to show you content from that generated by an eye system that might be something that you're interested in.

Now how big did any these segments get? I think it's really hard to know until you build them out over time. But IT feels like IT is a category in the world that's going to exist. And um how bigger gets this kind of dependent on the execution?

How good IT is? Why do you think that needs to exist as a new category? I'm so restless with why people wants this. I get the companionship stuff that Carry ee.

And some starts have already shown there's like a market for and you've talked about how that I is already being used for role playing. yeah. But the big idea is that A I has been used to intermediate in feed, how humans reach each other. And now of the sun is are gonna in fees with us.

Well, I think the main difference, and I feels big, yeah, I been in a lot of ways, the big change he happened, which is people getting content that they weren't falling. And the definition of friends and social interaction has changed very fundamentally in the last ten years. Now in social systems, most of the direct interaction is happening in more private forms, in messaging our groups.

This is one of the reasons, I think, why we were late with reals initially to competing with tiktok is because we we hadn't made this mental shift where we kind felt like no feed is where you interact with people. Actually, increasingly, feed is becoming a place where you discover content that you then take to your private forums and interact with people there. So a lot of the way I interact with people, it's a get that will still have the thing where a friend will post something in all or comment on that, engage directly and feed again.

You know, this is additive if you're adding more over time. But the main way that you engage with real isn't necessarily that, you know you go into the real comments and comment and talk to people you don't know. It's like you see something funny and you send IT to friends and a group chat. I think that that paradigm absolutely continue with A I and all kinds of interesting content. So IT is facilitating connections with people. But I think already were in this mode where our connections through social media shifting to more private places and the role of feed in the ecosystem is more as A I called the discovery engine of content to of ice's akers are interesting kind of topic starters for the conversations that you're having across the like broader spectrum of places where you're interacting.

Do you worry about people interacting with A S like this, making people less likely to talk to other people, like in reducing the engagement that we have with humans?

I mean, the so theology that i've seen on this is that most people have way fewer friends physically than they would like to have. I think people cherish the of human connection that they have. And the more we can do to make that feel more real and give you more reasons to connect, whether it's through something funny that shows up so you can message someone or a pair of glasses that lets, like your sister show up as a hologram in your living room when you SHE loads across the country, you won't able to see. But that's always kind of our main and bread and Better in the thing that we're doing.

But in in addition to that, I mean, if the the average person, I think you know maybe you'd like to have ten friends and I mean, there's the start that it's like that sort of sad, but I think the average american feels like they have fewer than three like real kind of close friends. So does this take away from that? My guess is no. I I think that what's going to happen is it's going to help give people more of the support that they need and give people more kind of reasons and ability to connect with either a brought a range of people or more deeply with the people who they care about.

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We're back with medico mark sucker g talking about the current state of threads and why the company is trying to back out of politics.

How are you feeling about health presses doing these days?

I mean, threads on fire. It's great. I mean, it's I think these things it's like there's only so quickly if something can get to a billion people. So it's keep on pushing on IT over.

I've heard it's still using a program a lot for roof like I guess i'm wondering when you see that getting to like a of stand alone growth driver on its own. I think I think that .

these things all connect to each other. I mean, I think threads helps instagram. I think kinder gram helps threats. I don't know that we have some strategic goal, which is like make IT. So that threads is completely disconnected from instagram, m or facebook.

I actually think we're going in the other direction and started off just connected instagram m, and now we also connected. It's that the content control up. Take this to back. We just talk about how for most people, they're interacting more private forum.

So if you're a creator, what you want to do is have your content show up everywhere, right? Because you're trying to build the biggest community that you can do these different places. So it's this huge value for people if they can generate a real or a video or some text base content and now you can posted in threads, instagram, facebook and more places over time. So I think the direction there is generally kind of more flow, not less, and kind of more interpret ability. And that's that's why i've been kind of pushing on that is as a theme over time.

I'm not even sure what x is anymore, but I think what I used to be in what twitter used to be was a place where you went when news was happening. I know you in the company seem to be distancing yourself from recommending news, but with threads, IT feels like that's what people want and people thought threats might be, but IT seems like you are intentionally saying we don't want threads to actually be that yeah .

I think it's interesting. There's there are different ways to to look at this. I always look to twitter not is primarily about real time news, but as a kind of short form, primarily text discussion oriented APP to me, the fundamental defining aspect of that format is that you don't when you make a post, the comments aren't subtenant to the post.

The comments are at a peer level. And that is a very different architecture than every other of social network that's out. There is a subtle difference, but within these systems, these subtle differences lead to a very different emerging behavior.

Because of that, people can take, they can fork discussions and IT makes IT a very good discussion or enter platform. Now news is one thing that people like discussing, but it's not the only thing. But I was looked to twitter and I was like, hey, this is such a wasted opportunity.

Like, this is clearly a billion person APP. You know, maybe the modern day when you have multiple, like many billions of people using social apps IT should be multiple billions of people for whatever reason. I mean, there there are a lot of things that have been complicated about twitter in the corporate structure and all that, but they just weren't quite getting there.

And eventually I kind of thought, hey, I think we can do this right. I think we can get this they build out the discussion platform in in a way that can get to a billion people. I would be more of ubiquitous social platform that I think achieves the um like its full potential. But our version of this is we wanted to be a kinder and we don't want them to start with kind of the like direct kind of head to head combat of news and especially politics and um like that can strengthen the growth of the .

product at all.

I mean, I think we'll see you that.

that needs to exist in the world because I feel like with x is seeming explosion, it's not really existing anymore. Maybe i'm biased to someone in the media, but I think I do think people want when something big happens in the world, they want an act that they can go to and see everyone that they follow. Talking about IT immediately.

Well, the company yeah there there like a ton of different competitors and different companies doing things. And I I mean, I think that there's a talented team over twitter and acts and I wouldn't ite them off even even then obviously, there's all these other folks. There's a lot of startups that are doing stuff.

So I don't feel like we. Have to go at that first. I think that like maybe we get there over time or maybe we decide that it's enough of a zero some trade, maybe an a negative some trade.

We're like that you should somewhere, but maybe that use case prevents a lot more usage and kind of a lot more value in other places because that makes IT a summer last friendly place. I don't think we know the answer that yet, but I do think the last ten years, years of our experience has been that the political discourse is tRicky, right? It's on the one hand, it's obviously a very important thing in society.

And on the other hand, I don't think IT leaves people feeling good. So i'm torn between these two values. On the one hand, I I think like people should be able to have this kind of open discourse, and that's good.

On the other hand, I don't want to design a product that makes people angry, right? It's like, I mean, is that there's an informational lens for looking at this and there's kind of a you're designing a product and like what's the fuel of the product, right? It's like, I think anyone who's designing a product cares a lot about how the thing feels and but you you recognized .

the importance of that discussion happening. And I think it's useful.

And and look, we don't block IT, you know, we we just make it's that you know for the content where you are following people, if you want talk your friends about IT, if you want talk them about messaging, there can be groups about IT out if you follow, people can shop in your feet. But we don't go out of our way to recommend that content when you are not following IT.

And I think that, that has been a healthy baLance for us and forgetting our products to generally feel the way that we want and culture changes over time. Maybe this stuff will be like a little bit less polarized ed and anger inducing at some point and maybe will be possible to have more of that while also at the same time, having a product where we're proud of how IT feels. But until then, I think we wanted design a product that the Young people can get, the things that they want. But you know, fundamentally, I care a lot about how people feel coming away from the products.

Do you see this decision to downing political content? People that horror followed in feed as a political decision? I guess, because I don't know.

You are also at the time you know not really saying much about the election this year. You're not donating. You've said you can want to stay out of IT now. yeah. And I see the way the companies acting and IT reflects your personal kind of way you're Operating right now. And i'm wondering like how much more of that is also about what you in the company have gone through and the political environment and not necessarily just what users are telling you because there are three line there.

I am i'm sure it'll connected. I think in this case, IT wasn't a trade off between those two things because this actually was what our community was telling us and people saying, generally, we don't want so much politics like the season. You know like we don't feel good like like want like we want content to that.

We want more stuff from our friends and family. We want more stuff from our interests. That was kind of the primary driver. But I think it's definitely the case that our corporate experience on this shaped this. And I think there's something there's a big difference between something being political and being partisan. And the main thing that I care about is making sure that we can be seen as a non partisan and IT was much as something can in the world. And twenty twenty four be sort of like a trusted institution by as many people as possible.

And I just think that the partisan politics is so tough in the world right now that i've made the decision that I can feel like for me and for the company, the best thing to do is to try to be as non partisan as possible in all of this and kind of be is neutral and and distance ourselves as much as possible. It's not just the substance. I also think the perception matter.

So I think so that's why maybe and IT doesn't matter on our platforms whether I endorse a candidate or not. But like I don't I don't want to go anywhere near that. Ah and yeah sure. I mean, you could say that a political strategy, but I think it's um I think for where we are in the world today, it's a very hard almost every institution has become partisan in some way and we are just trying to resist that. And maybe i'm too naive and maybe that impossible, but that's we're going na try to do that.

On the acquired pod test recently, you said that the political miscalculation was a twenty year mistake .

yeah from .

a and from a brand perspective and that was going to take another ten or so for beautifully work through that cycle.

Yeah yeah. What makes you .

think it's such a lasting thing? Because you look at like how you personally have kind of late in the last couple years and I think perception the company is evolved. And i'm wondering like what you meet by saying is gna take another ten years?

I'm i'm just talking about where our brand is and our reputation are compared to where I think they would have been. I mean, there's no doubt that even now here, okay. Yeah sure.

Maybe things have improved somewhat over last few years. You can feel the trend, but it's still significantly worse than I wasn't two thousand sixteen. And you know it's I in the internet industry overall. And I think our company in particular, just we're seen way more positively.

And now look, there were real issues, right? So so I think that it's always difficult to talk about this stuff in a nuance way because I think to some degree, before twenty sixteen, everyone was not too rosy about the internet overall and didn't talk enough about the issues. And then the pendulum m sort swinging.

People only talk to about the issues and didn't talk about the stuff that was positive. And IT was all both there the whole time. So when I talk about this, I don't mean to, you know come across this simpler stic or anything .

wrong or that the worn issues with .

the internet of things that I mean, obviously every year, you know, whether it's politics or other things, there always things do you look back like, yeah like I playing this perfectly. I won't done these things differently and but I do think it's the case that I didn't really know how to react as something as big of a sort of a shift in the world is what happened. And IT took me a while to find my footing.

And and I do think that it's tRicky when you're caught up in these kind of big debates and you're not kind of experienced or sophisticated and engaging with that. I think you can make some big missed ups. And I I do think that some of the things that we were accused of over time and just no, I think it's just been pretty clear at this point. You know, now that all the investigations have been done that like they weren't true .

and like care general.

I think came a good example is something that it's like people thought that like all the data had been taken and that IT had been used in this campaign and I was wasn't yeah so it's all the stuff I like. The data wasn't even you know accessible to the to the developer and and we d fixed the issue like five years ago. So in the moment, IT was like really hard for us to to kind of have a rational discussion about that.

And i'm part of the chAllenge is that for the general population, I think a lot of people read the initial headlines and they don't necessarily read the and Frankly, you know a lot of the media, I don't think was like as loud to write about when all the investigations concluded that said that like a lot of the initial allegations were just completely wrong. I've that like that's a real thing. So OK you take these hits, I didn't really know how to how to kind of push back on that and maybe some of that you can't.

But I like to think that I think we could have play this some of the stuff differently. And I do think that was certainly the case that when you take responsibility for things that are not your fault, you become sort of a weak target for people who are looking to blame other things and find a target for them. It's sort of like is a different part of of uh, it's somewhere related this. But when you think about like like litigation strategy for the company, one of the reason why I hate settle lawsuits is that IT IT basically sends a signal to people that, hey, this is a company that settle lawsuit. So maybe like we can see them and they'll lawsuit.

So so you wouldn't write a blank check to the government like google did for its ani trust case.

I think like I think the right kind of way to approach this is when you believe in something, you fight really hard for IT. And I think this is a repeat game. This isn't like it's not like there's a single issue and we're going to be around for a long time.

And I think it's it's a really important that people know that were a company that has conviction and that we we believe in and what we're doing, and we're going to back that up and defend ourselves. And I think that bad kind of sets the right tone. Now I think over the next ten years, I think we're sort of digging ourselves back to neutral on this.

But I I like to think that we had had a lot of these issues. We would have been progressive last ten years, two. So I sort of this time, but maybe twenty years is too long. Maybe it's fifteen.

but it's hard to note with politics. IT feels like mental health and youth mental health.

Maybe the next wave that I think is the next big fight in and on that. You know, I think a lot of the data on this I I think is just not where the arraid is. The narrative yeah, I think the narrative is a lot of people sort of take IT as if it's I can assume thing that there is some link and like I think the majority of the of the high quality research that's out there suggests that there is no causal connection.

I'd like a that kind of a broad scale between between these things. So no, look, I think I think that's different from saying like an any given issue like was is someone bullied, we try to stop bullying and of course but yeah all I think that this is this is one where there are a bunch these cases. I think that there will be a lot of litigation around them.

And it's one where we're trying to make sure that the academic research that shows something that that I think is um you know to me, it's sort of foots more with what i've seen of how the platforms Operate, but is counter to what a lot of people think. And I think that's going to be a reckoning that will have to have this is basically when as the the kind of the majority of the high quality academic research gets shown is like a active can people accept this? And I think that's going to be a really important set of debates .

of the next at the same time, you guys have acknowledged there's affordances in the product like the teen or out with instagram ally that you can make to make the product a Better experience for Young people.

yeah. And I think this is an interesting part of the baLance is um you can play a role in trying to make something Better even if the thing wasn't caused by you in the first place. There's no doubt that being a parent is really hard.

And there is a big question of, in this internet age where we have phones, what are the right tools that parents need in order to be able to raise their kids? And like, I think that we can play a role in giving people controls over parental controls over the apps. I think that parental controls are also really important because parents have different ways that they want to raise their kids.

Or just like schooling and education, people have like very significantly different local preferences for how they want to raise their kids. I don't think that most people want some internet company setting all the rules for this either. So obviously, you know, when there are laws passed, kind of follow the the government's direction in the laws on that.

But I actually think the right approach for us is to primarily kind of a line with parents to give them the tools that they want to be able to raise their kids in the way that they want. And some people are going to think that more technology use is good. That sort of how my parents, you know, where is me growing up, they worked prety well. Some people can be kind of more more um you don't want to limit more and we want to give them the tools to do that. But I don't think that this is you know primarily or only a social media thing, even even the parts of this that are technology .

age verification.

I think phones like the phone platforms have a huge part of this. I think it's having this is the big question of how do you do age verification. And and I can tell you what the easiest way is, which is like, right? Like every time you go to a payment on your phone and in the already is child basically like child edge verification. So I don't really understand well, I guess I understand, but I think it's not very inexcusable for my perspective why apple then then then um least to some extent, google don't want to just extend the age verification that they already have on their phones to be a parental control for parents .

to basically be able to say what apps .

can my kids use.

I but maybe that's on congress in the past. Who has to take responsibility?

Yeah yeah. And we're going to do our part and we're not we're going to build the tools that we kend for for parents and for and for of teens. But the end of the day, in look at nothing, it's all the phones falt either.

Although I would say that like ability to get push notifications and get kind of distracted as a from my perspective, seems like a much greater contributor to mental health issues that kind of a lot of the specific apps. But but there are things that that I think everyone should should kind of try to improve and work on. But yeah, I mean, I think of sort of my view on all that.

I guess on the regulation peace as IT relates to A I you've been very vocal about what's happening. The E. U. And you recently signed an open letter. And I believe I was saying basically that you guys just don't have clarity on consent for training, how it's supposed to work.

And i'm wondering what you think he needs to happen there for things to move forward because I met a eyes not available on europe, new llama models or not. Is that something you've see getting resolved at all, I guess? And what would you take?

Yeah, I know it's it's a little hard for me to pass the european politics. I have a hard time enough with american politics and i'm american. But in theory, miner, standing of the way this is supposed to work as they they kind of passed this gdpr regulation, and you're supposed to have this this idea of sort of a one stop shop like home regulator who can basically, on behalf of the whole E.

U, interpret and enforce the rules. We have our european headquarters ers, and we work with that regulator. And yeah, I think they're like OK. They're pretty tough on us and pretty firm. But at least when you're working with one regulator, you can kind of understand how are they thinking about things and it's and you can make progress.

And the thing that I think has been tRicky is there i've been, from my perspective, a little bit of backslide, where now you get all these other pps across the continent, sort of also intervening and in trying to do things and IT just seems like more than kind of internal eu political thing, which is like do do they want to have this one stop shop and have clarity for companies so companies like can execute or or they just wanted to be this kind of very complicated regulatory system. And and I look, I think that's for them to sort out. But there's no doubt that when you have like dozens of different regulators that can ask you kind of the same questions about different things that makes IT a much more difficile environment to build things that just like that.

That's all the companies that do you understand the concern people have about training data and how it's used. And this idea that their data is being used for these models, they are not getting compensated and the models creating a lot of value. And I know you're giving away lama, but yourself, you've got my eye.

And I understand the frustration that people have about that. I think it's a naturally bad feeling to be like, oh, my my data now being used in a new way that I have no controller or over. Do you do sympathies with that?

Yeah, I think I think that there are in any new medium and technology. There's like the concepts around fair use and like where the boundaries between what you have control over. But when you put something out in the world to what you are, you still get to control IT and and kind of owned and license said, I think that all these things are basically gonna need to get you relitigate and rediscussed in the A I era.

So am I get IT? I think that these are, these are important questions. I think this is not like completely noble thing to A I in the in the grand scheme of things.

I think you was a lot of them. There were questions about IT with with the internet overall, two, and with different technologies over time. But I think getting to clarity on that is going to be important. So that way, the things that society wants people to build, they can go build .

what is clearly look like to you there.

And I think IT starts with having some framework of like, okay, what's the process going to be for working through that?

But you don't see a scenario where craters get like directly compensated for the use of their content. I think that there .

is a lot of different possibilities for how stuff goes in the future. Now I do think that there's this issue, which is a lot of like, well, psychologically, I understand what you're saying. Yeah, I think individual creators or publishers tend to over estimate the value of their specific content, right? So it's a okay maybe elected in in like in the grand of right.

We have the set of chAllenges with internews publishers around the world, which is like, okay, they there like a lot of folks are constantly kind of asking to be paid for the content. And then the other hand, we have our community which has asked me to show less news because that makes them feel bad, right? And I mean, we talked about that.

So it's like there's this issue which is okay. It's like actually where showing some amount of the news that were shown because we think it's socially important against what our community wants, like we actually just following what our community wants. We show even less than we're showing .

um and you see that in the data that people just .

don't like to ended. And we've had these issues where sometimes we like publishers say, okay, if you're not going to pay us, then pull your content down and just like, yes, sure are fine. Pull pull your country down.

I mean, that sucks. D rather people be able to share IT. But to some degree, some of these questions have to get tested by their negotiations, and they have to get tested by people walking.

And then at the end, once people walk, you figure out where the value really is. If he really is the case, that news was a big thing that the community wanted. Then I look at where the company we could you know we could probably know we pay for content when it's valuable to people, which not to pay for content, not value to people.

So I think that you'll probably see a similar dynamic with A I, which is my guesses, is that they're going be certain partnerships that I made when content is really important, valuable. And i'd guess that there's probably a lot of people who kind of have a concern about like the feel of IT, like you're saying. But then when push comes to shove, if they demanded that we take that we don't use their content, then we just won't use their content. And it's not like, you know, that's going to change the outcome of the stuff .

that much to bring this full circle where we started uh as you're building augmented reality glasses um and what you've learned over just the societal implications of the stuff you ve built over the last decade. How are you thinking about this as a related to glass as that scale because you're literally gonna augmenting reality, which is a it's a responsibility.

I think that's gonna be another platform two, and you're going to have a lot of these questions as well. I think I think the interesting thing about holograms and augmented reality is it's going to be this intermingling of the physical and digital much more than we've had an other platforms where in your phone it's eoghan live a primarily physical world, but then you have a small window into the digital world.

And I think we're going na basically have this world in the future, that is. Increasingly, the half physical, half digital, I don't know, sixty percent physical, forty percent digital. And it's like going to be blended together.

And I think that they're going to be a lot of interesting governance questions around that, right? In terms of is kind of all of the digital stuff that's overlaid physically gna fit within sort of a physical kind of national regulation perspective. Visit sort of is actually coming from a different world.

There's something these will all be very interesting questions that we will have a perspective. I'm sure we're not to be right about every single thing. I think like the world will need to sort out where he wants to be different countries with of different values and take some more different approaches on things.

And I think that that's it's part of the interesting process of this, that the tap street of how at all gets built is like you need to work through so that, that ends up in positive for IT as many of the possible stakeholders as possible. More to come up, a lot to come. Thanks, mark.

I like think mark zk work for joining coder and thank ox heater for guest hosting. I'd also like to thank you for listing. I hope you enjoy that.

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