Episode 34: Interview with Bart Yasso, Former Runner's World Chief Running Officer
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Welcome to Chasing Life podcast where we talk about fitness, running, career, and life tips to inspire you to live your best life. I'm your host Sarah Cain and I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome to another episode of Chasing Life. It's Sarah here and today's guest is Bart Yasso. Dubbed the mayor of running, Bart is one of the best known figures in the sport but few people know why he started running competitively, how it changed, or rather saved his life.

As the chief running officer for Runner's World magazine for over 30 years, Bart was the public face of Runner's World at races in the United States and abroad. Many runners have told Bart that he had the greatest job in the world, getting to travel to races all around the world and meet runners of all abilities. He is one of the few people to have completed races on all seven continents, from the Antarctica Marathon to Mount Kilimanjaro Marathon. But it's not the details of the races he recalls, it's the people he meets.

During this interview, he shares some of those memorable experiences along with how he feels about the Yasso 800s, a marathon training schedule used by thousands around the world.

One of the icons of the sport, Yasso has been inducted into the running USA Hall of Champions. He has also completed the Ironman five times in the Badwater 146 through Death Valley and cycled unsupported by himself across the country twice. It was an honor for me to speak with him and hear all of his stories. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

Welcome, Bart. Thank you for joining Chasing Life Podcast. I'm excited to talk with you today. Hey, thank you, Sarah. Thanks for reaching out to me and I'm excited to chat with you. Now, you have been around running for many years. Can you talk about...

you know, your running journey, how you started, how it impacted your life. I feel like there's a lot of ways you can go with that, but I'd love to hear more. Yeah, I've been running consistently for 43, 44 years, somewhere in there. I was a product of starting in the late 1977-ish, somewhere in there.

when the running boom was taking off, I just wanted a change in my lifestyle. I wanted to be healthier. I wasn't thinking of running as a sport. I was thinking of running as a way to get healthy. And I never thought of doing a running race ever. So, I mean, I just went out there and

You know, like anyone else, I ran a mile and thought, God, that's a long way to run. And it just about killed me to run a mile. And then one mile leads to two miles to three miles and running twice a week leads to three times. And then my older brother, George,

who was like a father figure he was four years older than I unfortunately my brother George passed away of cancer 2003 I'm sorry three kids tough but but he was really my father figure and he was the one that convinced me that I could be a good runner if I really wanted to be because he was watching the running I was doing and I didn't agree with him I was kind of very complacent in a lot of ways I get my little groove and I'm happy and I don't kind of

push the envelope. So I was cool with just doing my running. And, but then he challenged me to a race because he saw that I wasn't going to commit to it. So he said, okay, we're going to do a race, the two of us. And it's a race between us. And then there's going to be a couple other hundred people in this. That's where, that's where it all started. And, uh,

God, I never thought my brother could beat me in a running race. And he did beat me, caught me at like mile, it was a 10K, caught me about mile 5.8 and just blew by me at the end of the race. And I was like, wow, I was in awe of what he could do. But he taught me a good lesson. He said, you know, I think you'll be faster than I am. And that was the last time he beat me.

A year later, I was able to spot him five minutes in a 10K. And that's the way we worked out, you know, who actually would win the race, you know, kind of a handicap system. But he really planted the seed and really kind of guided me a little bit to believe in myself. I never in my wildest dreams would think where running would take me around the world and it would be my job. I mean, that was crazy. You know, kiddingly, I used to say...

I'm not kidding. I really had these little kind of dreams in my head while out there doing 23 mile runs and stuff like, you know, I should get a job in the running industry and something that would take me to races around the world and that kind of stuff. I really did say that to myself out on these long runs. It was really like a dream, but it really came to life when I got my job at Runner's World.

So my tagline has always been never limit where running could take you physically, geographically, emotionally, spiritually. The sport has done a lot for me. People always ask me to change, like you said, Sarah, the change of life or what it changed. It actually saved my life when I look

back because the people I was associating with prior to when I really got in the running and wanted to make a lifestyle change, a lot of them committed suicide and OD'd on drugs and just bad stuff happened. So when I look at, I can write down like 15 names and they all died many years ago.

So me kind of moving away from that crowd and getting to a better crowd was a cool thing. And I found peace and solace out on my runs by myself and never knowing the power of the running community till you get immersed in it. I had no idea this running community would be so supportive.

I was, you know, when you do a race, you think like everyone wants to beat everyone and that's the way it is. And it was kind of like that in the seventies and eight early eighties, but the running community changed a lot and became more inclusive and more women came into this sport. It became a very supporting kind of sport, which I really love about our sport. So there's, I mean, I could talk on the changes running did for me forever, but in the big picture,

With my job at Runner's World, which I worked at Runner's World for 31 years, I got to meet some amazing people that running saved their lives. And they would tell me their story. And it's just unbelievable how people use our sport and how they ended up getting to our sport.

That's what always amazed me. Like you don't all of a sudden say, hey, I'm going to, you know, you're not born and say, oh, this is a marathon runner. You know, that does happen in a household where the parents are both marathon runners, but there weren't many marathon runners back in the 70s. So it wasn't common. When I was talking about doing those 23 mile runs, they were all solo long runs. And occasionally I would see another runner out there and you're like,

oh my God, this is unbelievable. There's another runner out here doing a long run. You could tell because you're on a lonely country road in the middle of nowhere that someone else is doing a long run. And I knew they were a serious runner because they had a little $9.99 Casio watch with a

chrono on it so we're keeping our splits and stuff like that that was that was our equipment you know if they had running shoes on and they had the watch you're like they're vested they are that was a giveaway yeah that was a giveaway now we have really giant gps watches right that you can spot from a mile away right yeah my garmin 945 or whatever yeah my rc

Yeah, I have a garden 230 and yeah, you can sit from across the room. Yeah, so it's much different. And it was a big thing. I don't know where this painter's cap thing started, but runners wore these painter caps in the old days. And I don't know where that started. That was another dead giveaway. If you saw a runner with a painter cap, then they're like a serious marathon.

My dad was a runner in the 70s and 80s. And he used to tell me about that. And I think they used to wear like painter's gloves too at the start. Yeah. And so he told me that it was because they were cheap so they could be thrown away. So that was at least that's how he explained it to me of like why they used to wear those things. So that would make sense because they were cheap. You could get a dozen for like $2 or something like that.

They came in like a sleeve, a dozen painter's caps for $2 or maybe even a dollar. I don't, but that was, that was our serious equipment back in the day. And then, you know, nowadays you see all these group runs. It's such a joy to, you know, a lot of runners always say to me, they're jealous that I started 43 or 44 years ago, whatever it was.

and they turn new to the sport. And I always tell them, you came along at the right time because it's really when you're personally ready to get into this sport and you could take, you have such a knowledge of life where later on you pick up a sport and you're really going to get a lot out of this. When I was in my 20s, I thought, you know, the rest of my life and I'll do these long runs like nothing. And of course, that doesn't work that way.

Well, I'm in my latter 60s, you know, life changes. I found that really interesting that you said you find running when you're ready. I tried running in middle school and it didn't quite click with me. My heart just wasn't in it. My parents were both runners. That's how they met in college was because they were on the team together. And I

I kind of started running because they were runners and my brothers didn't participate in the sport. So I was like, well, I'll do it. Like, it's kind of like an honor to them. But then I realized that just between injuries or whatnot, my heart wasn't in it then. And so I stepped away from it, but then I rediscovered it after college and I've been running ever since. And I never thought that I would be running marathons when I started running. I just started running as kind of like a,

healthy lifestyle choice. And then, yeah, you sign up for one race and then you challenge yourself again. And I feel like what was the turning point for me was when I started training for the longer distances, like a half marathon, that just seems like absurd when you're a new runner and barely running three miles, you're like, how am I going to run 13.1? But then when I started following a plan and I realized how,

how dedicated I could become to chasing a goal. Then it started like clicking with me and I just kept setting higher and higher goals. And now 10 plus years later, I'm still chasing goals. There you go. Yeah. I can remember like it was yesterday when I went into this bike shop

and the owner of the bike shop had a Boston Marathon shirt on. And I'm talking this is like 1970. I said, you did the Boston Marathon? He said, yeah, I've done it a couple of times, 1964, 1965. And I just was in awe of this guy. Seriously? And that's when I knew I had to run the Boston Marathon. Just talking to that guy and seeing him in that shirt, I said, OK, that's me. But I wasn't really-- I would say that, and then I would just go back to running my two to three mile run.

I think without my brother George, it would have never happened because he was the one that really got me going and pushed me to do it. Because I'm sure I would have never done one race. And then I would have never had this life that I lived to go around the world and to run everywhere.

I owe that to my brother, George. That's pretty special that he was able to really impact your life in such a powerful way. Yeah. And he was a good, you know, he wasn't a, he was a financial advisor in real life, but he was really a good teacher as in a sense that he knew what he had to give you, but you had to do the work and you had to do it yourself. But he knew just enough to

encourage you and engage you and like feed you a little bit and then get you motivated and it was really up to you. And that is running. You can't, there are no shortcuts in running. There is no, you can't rely on a teammate in most of the races we do. Cross country races, you know, it's a different story where you have teammates, but just your solo road race, it's really you. So you have to do the hard work if you want to run faster.

It's such a pure sport. And that's one of the things I fell in love with. Yeah, me too. And it's really empowering too, because it's such a self-sufficient sport that you realize, you know, that positive cycle of I'm putting in the hard work, I'm seeing my results. Okay, I'm going to put in more hard work and see what else I can do and just see what my body is capable of.

So I think that's so powerful. Yeah, it really, you can get a lot more out of your body than you think. And running proves that. Once you prove it to yourself, then you set higher standards and higher goals and try to push to another level. Yes. I think it's the beauty of it.

And I feel like, you know, what you just said about pushing higher for goals is not just applicable to running, but so much in life too, which is part of the premise of this podcast is just kind of how that all intertwines and how, you know, the lessons we take from running can be applied to real life career, all

all that sort of thing. So can we kind of take a step back actually to your career and talk about your time with Runner's World, how you ended up there? I'm sure you've gotten that question a lot. I got that question a lot because everybody wanted my job. Once I became the chief running officer at Runner's World, everybody wanted my job. And I said, well, it's actually my job, but...

But it really, I always say it was luck. People always say that's not true. They say my hard work got me there. Runner's World was purchased by a company called Rodale. It was located where I was living in Pennsylvania. And so now all of a sudden Runner's World Magazine, which was based out of the Bay Area in California, is now in Pennsylvania near where I live. So a lot of things fell into place. Now I will say it wasn't luck when I started working there because I did work very hard and I really wanted to move up in the company.

thought was the best thing for myself and the sport and what I really thought would be a dream job. And it just molded that way. And I worked with very, very talented. Again, I know I worked hard and I really loved what I was doing, but without the talented people around me, supported me, helped me and mentored me.

could have never reached chief running officer of the world and just a you know really like a dream come true and it's so true that everywhere I went people went out that was so funny I retired three and a half years ago I always told these people I'm not going to do this forever I'm going to retire at some some point so if you really want this job keep stay in touch and I'll let you know when I'm stepping away so what was a day in a life like for the chief running officer yeah so

I mean, you really, anything that had to do with running that was connected to Runner's World, whether it was the magazine, the website, whatever, our books, I was involved in some way. A lot of the planning and everything we were going to do, we had these plans, what we're going to do five years down the road. And so I was involved in all that stuff. It was really just fun.

grow the sport of running, you know, views all the products that Runners World had. I did a little thing every day that wasn't on my job description. But when I walked into my office every day, I said to myself, first thing I did when I got into my office was I have to get someone who today is not a runner, that they will be a runner. And there were different ways to do that. It got a lot easier once the internet came along.

But I really did challenge people and connect with people of all abilities and all races and all over the world to really use this sport to enhance their life and enhance themselves, make a better life, and really show what they can do, put their mind to it. I challenged myself every day. I reached out to schools and drug rehab places. I did it all just to convince people they could be wrong.

And I always, I would get these emails and they would say, oh my God, I thought I would hate running. And I never thought I could be a runner. And I signed up for a marathon. And they would just say, thank you. You know, it was so cool to get that, those kind of emails. And sometimes it happened when I didn't even know it, do a lot of public speaking. You know, I never turned down a speaking engagement, spoke to all kinds of groups. I would speak to this group and then

Six months later, I would get a message from, hey, you came to our whatever group it was, whether it was a school or an organization. Yeah, you got me convinced I could do this. And now I'm signed up for my first half marathon or whatever it was. It was really fun to see that come to life. And that was really like hands on, like.

go out and talk to these people and see if I could keep this sport going. And on a global scale, because I've traveled all over the world to races. When I went to races, wherever I was, whether it was South Africa or East Africa or South America, I always tried to speak to schools. I always tried to get the young kids involved early. And hopefully they can then inspire their parents if they weren't running and that kind of thing.

And to think that was a job, you know, I've said to people, I went to the Virginia Beach Marathon and they have it the weekend of St. Paddy's Day, the Shamrock Marathon at Virginia Beach put on by J&A Racing. And I went there one time and this couple people,

started messaging me through, I don't know if it was Facebook or Twitter or Instagram, however they were messaging me and they had this running problem. They wanted to ask me advice so I told them I'd be at the expo at this time. They come up to me and it was a married couple with a 14 year old daughter, their daughter

The guy was best shape was like always wanted to break two hours and a half marathon he's convinced he could do it his wife said i'm going to qualify for Boston tomorrow i'm in the best shape my life I know I can run like 330 so i'm like well what's the problem they go oh.

Our daughter's entered in the half marathon and we both feel bad that she's just going to go out there and run by herself. And they asked, what should we do? And I said, well, I asked them to talk to them, just the two of them without their daughter. And I said, well, if you don't mind, I'll run with. And then I said, first of all, tell me how fast she's going to run. So I got to make sure I can keep up with them. And they said a time. And I said, OK, I could run that for sure. And so I said, but the deal is.

I'm going to surprise her at the start line. I said, let me know what corral she's in because I have to do all these intros at the start and I'll be right there. And she comes up, I'll jump down and run with her. So it was so cool. Guy broke two hours. The mom qualified for Boston. And I get to run with this young 14-year-old.

And in her first race and her first, you know, she's run a half marathon. And I felt like I was a kid, even though I was probably like 63 or 62 at the time. And it was so such a cool experience. And she was shocked when I went up to her and said, hey, I'm going to run with you.

it, you know, literally right before her wave started. So it was, it was so fun. And I remember after the race, you know, I'm stuck in another race directors who were very good friends of mine. And I said, like, how can someone call this a job description? I did today, like, it was really like work, and I'm going to write a little piece about it. And I said, that's

How can that be work? Like this was so much fun to do, but it really was work for me. You know, and if I speak to a group of runners, you know, like a running club, I said, okay, who in this room would not want to run with a youngster doing their first race?

And call that your job. Basically get paid to do that. Every hand goes up that they would do that. So, you know, again, that wasn't in my job description, but I had this ability to connect with a lot of people. I went to events and it's still going on, even though I don't work in a room. And I don't know, is there

Is it my personality? Is it something I don't know? I don't ever have a sign like, hi, I'm Barrioso, come up and tell me your running story. But people do come up and tell me their running story. And then a lot of them end up in, back in my day, it would end up in Runner's World or on the website. A lot of the stories I didn't work on, but I got the ball rolling on the story.

Get it to our editor-in-chief, which was either David Willey or Andy Burfoot, whoever was in charge at the time. You know, if they really liked the story, I thought it was a good story. If they really liked it, it would just move in. Sometimes it was a feature story. Sometimes it would just be on the website. They really trusted my ideas that I thought would be a good story. And some people didn't think they had a story. They weren't looking for it.

to get in Runner's World. They just matter of factly would tell me their story and we got to talk after this race kind of thing. So to have that, it's such a nice feeling to see people that never expected any kind of publicity get in Runner's World and it just freaks them out. It's really, really fun to be part of that whole scene. Yeah, well, it's no wonder everyone wanted your job. Just the example of, yeah, asking recorders

recreational everyday runners, like who wouldn't want to help someone with their race? And it's like, yeah, I would love to do that. Like I've thought about being a pacer for local races, right. To help other people reach their goals. And so that's pretty awesome. And I mean, what a positive ambassador you've been for our sport too, that, and just, you know, over the years, like it's just been incredible that you have how many people you've met and races you've had an opportunity to be a part of. Is it?

I mean, I was going to ask like what your most memorable race was or people you've met, but that story you just...

shared was pretty powerful. Yeah, but I get the question a lot in my favorite race, and it is the Comrades Marathon in South Africa by far. There's nothing that compares to it. I was a decent runner for 50 miles, my personal best for 50 miles, six hours and 11 minutes for 50 miles. That's like 75 per mile pace for 50 miles. So I always wanted to do Comrades, which they call it a marathon, but it's actually 56 miles.

And I entered the race twice and my Lyme disease kept me from getting there. I was sick both times. I never got there. So I kind of forgot about Comrade and didn't think it was in the cards. And, uh,

The opportunity came along in 2010 to do it. And when I wrote my memoir, My Life on the Moon, I used a co-author named Kathleen Parrish. The two of us worked on it. The way we decided to end the book was my only regret in running is that I didn't run Comrade. So I wrote those words in 2008, January of 2009.

I really didn't think I could run Comrades because I was having a lot of physical problems. And when I got the opportunity in 2010 to go to Comrades and run for Team World Vision, and I had two sponsored children living in South Africa through World, I thought, I got to do this. I don't care if I, whatever happens out there, I got to do this. So I went to Comrades in 2010. I was really in bad shape, physically in bad shape. I thought,

Hey, it's the one race I always want to do. I got to do it. 56 miles, I'll just go out and gut it out if I...

get to the finish line I get there if I can I can't do it I mean it's that simple so I did I did a 5k the weekend before uh comrades and then I was leaving for South Africa that next morning to fly to uh to Cape Town and uh I thought and I did this 5k I couldn't even break 30 minutes and running 16 minutes in 5k was just like the easiest thing to do in my younger days

And Lyme disease really beat me. If I can't run a 5K in under 30 minutes, there's no way I can beat the cutoff, which was 12 hours, 56 minutes. You know, I really questioned myself. And then after I did that race and I'm ready to head to South Africa the next day, I get this letter and I printed this out because I want to read it verbatim. I get this email from Bobby McGee, a guy I know, and he's a South African, but he's living in Boulder.

And he knew I was doing comrades and he knew I wasn't doing well. So he sent me this email. Once I got this email, I said, okay, I'm going to finish this race because I'm going to carry this message with me the entire way. But he said, hey friend, great wise sage, you will be in my thoughts when you tackle comrades. May the warmth of the KwaZulu-Natal, the people of South Africa, drive you ever onwards towards that finish. Savor every moment you have taught us to do. Though you have run the great marathons and ultras of the world, this is the greatest of

of ultras and may rank as the greatest foot race of all time. Being one of the planet's great running spirits, you will be welcomed into its bosom." Wow, this is cool stuff. Even healthy, Comrades examines every fiber of who a runner is.

takes and gives in equal vast amounts. It's a feast of a run with consequences of every imaginable kind. From the moment you hear the shotgun blast to the imploring hands of the crowd at the finish, you will reaffirm no matter what, you were born to run this race.

And he closes, he says, good luck, Bart. May the gods be with you. Draw from that earth, those people, and all those glorious miles you have run on this planet. You will need and love them all. Bobby McGee. Wow. Yo, that thing gave me chills. Yeah, it gave me chills. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So I carried this with me and a little plastic and I thought, okay, if I get to 40 miles and I'm down and out, I'm going to read this email and keep going. And there were other connections with, uh, South Africa that my sponsor children, which I got to meet and, uh,

My brother George, he was a big rugby player and he always wanted to play rugby in South Africa because they were incredible rugby players. But due to apartheid, it never happened. And then when apartheid was abolished, my brother then had a family, young kids and a real job. And it just wasn't in the cards. So I thought of him a lot when I was to go to South Africa and do this race. So I did it. I did make the cutoff. I did finish. But

But the reason I call it the greatest foot race is, you know, during the apartheid years of South Africa, the black citizens were just, it was hard, you know, runners thought they would be killed if they went out on a run. I mean, they were really scared to be out, just like running on a country road. And I always remember Willie Mottolo, who won the New York City Marathon. He was a guy training in South Africa during apartheid and was good enough to win the New York City Marathon. That's incredible to me. And, uh,

I talked to a lot of the black South Africans. So in the early days, the race didn't allow black citizens to run. And the white athletes that were running comrades were the ones that said, if you don't allow the black citizens to run, we're not going to run. If we don't run, you don't have a race. So make the change. And the race did. And they encouraged black citizens to run. Of course, as you know what happened, black citizens started winning comrades. And then they became national heroes. And every other race in the world. Yeah. Yeah.

But when I really talked one-on-one with a lot of Black South Africans that lived through apartheid, I talked to them and they literally told me when they ran Comrades, they felt like apartheid, didn't they? They just felt part of everybody. You know, there were white citizens cheering for them and helping them.

And I'm sure that went on in closed doors and other families, but it wasn't something you saw on national TV. But you did see it on national TV during Comrades. And after talking to so many of them and hearing their story and how they felt like this race suppressed...

Even if it only lasted for 11 or 12 hours. And after I talked to him, I just remember going to my room and just laying in bed thinking, you know, if a sport is powerful enough to suppress something as evil as apartheid, that's my sport. And I'm sticking with it. Running has a lot more power than you think. You know, we know it because we're immersed in it, but the outside world doesn't see that. And that's why I put comrades as my sport.

my greatest foot race. I mean, Bobby McGee says the greatest foot race on the planet. I absolutely agree with him. For those reasons, how it really changed the country. How it transitioned out of apartheid and became just a race for everybody.

It sounds very powerful and amazing that you were able to participate in it and have that takeaway as well. And yeah, so I'm glad you were able to do that. Yeah, it was was a really moving thing. I mean, they they had me at the start of the race up on this platform and talking to the crowd and literally like a minute to go ahead and get down and get in the crowd. And I was like,

I need to be in the back. And they said, you don't have a choice. Like I got down in the front where, you know, the lead men were on a pace like five, five times per mile for the entire race. The women run just a little over six minute pace. You know, I was going to be out there barely making it to get in at like 11 and a half hours at the time. So, so, you know, I thought I got to get in the back and I was right up front with all the elite runners. And I thought they were going to get mad at me because they knew what,

I just said on the stage what pace I was gonna run. They all smiled, gave me hugs. They were all crying at the start. I just remember them saying, "God, they're gonna start this race." 'Cause I was hyperventilating. So many of the athletes were hugging me and tears were falling off their cheekbones. They were just happy that they could go out and run. And I was just all worked up that I was just there.

Then I got my composure and realized, okay, I got to run this race. I've got to run 56 miles now. Yes. I never felt like that at any other race than Comrade. It was just a feeling I've never experienced and never have since. That sounds very...

powerful and like I've been getting chills just listening to hear you talk about it so what a great opportunity so if I could segue a little bit to here now you are kind of famous for what they call what the running world calls Yasso 800s can you yeah I've heard of those things

Can you tell me the story behind those? How that kind of developed and how you feel about having your name attached to that running term? Yeah, Ambie Burfoot's the guy. Ambie is such a smart person. He's a genius.

And he knew, I don't know how he knew. He knew if, you know, so there's this workout that I like to do 10 times, 800, 400 recovery. If you're going to try to run a 240 marathon, you do the 800s in two minutes and 40 seconds. And it really does work for me and some other people that I know knew that also did the workout. And, but Ambie was convinced and put it in the magazine. Everyone's going to do this workout. I don't see that happening.

And then he named them after me because of my last name. He said, you have such an unusual name that it's going to stick. People are going to keep doing this workout. And I'm like, no, they'll read it in the magazine one month. This was before the internet really took off because it was in the magazine in 1993.

And I said, okay, it'll be in the magazine. People will talk about it for one month and then it'll never be talked about again. Well, that didn't happen. These things became pretty popular. And then this thing came along called the internet. And that since that day,

There is not a day in my life that I don't receive a message, you know, whether it's through social media or they find my email or however, I get a message about Yasuo 800s. And most of them are really positive. There are people that say it doesn't work. And, you know, occasionally someone will send me a link and they'll say, oh, my God, they're bashing Yasuo 800s. You got to get on this link. And I said, no, I don't.

I've never said they work for anyone but me. I've never said there's this, you know, very workout out there. And, you know, but Amby, to his credit, he people, the name Yasso really worked in the equation because people remember him. And, you know, and then when Yahoo became quite the thing and Google,

I would see him and I'd say, "Okay, you were right." He really knew that this word Yasso, my last name, would really be remembered and be unique. If I was Bart Smith, it never would have happened.

So yeah, but Ambie is the one that named them and I've never lived them down. But they do work for a lot of people so it is kind of fun. I get a lot of positive feedback out of it and it's kind of fun. I always, I do kid around and tell people never have a workout named after you. I do say it in a kidding way but it's quite an honor to be truthful.

What is the practice? You kind of briefly mentioned that if you can run 800 meters, it'll match. Right. So you can run the eight. I'm sorry. Yeah. So the 800 meters is in minutes and seconds versus your marathon time and hours and minutes. So if you're trying to run a 320 marathon, you run the 800 meter repeats three minutes and 20 seconds to run a 320 marathon. Now you'd have to do 10 of them.

And I, you know, I always, I was, I think it works for a lot of people that do higher mileage. And cause I come from the days where all marathoners run a hundred miles a week, every marathoner I knew when I started doing marathons 42 years ago, everybody ran a hundred miles a week.

And so there was a lot of big miles. And, you know, when I did the 10 times 800 workout, I would warm up three miles and then five minutes of strides and then 10 times 800, 400 meter recovery, another five minutes of strides, three mile cool down, you know, it was a serious workout. So some people jump on and do two or three 800s and then that's not going to work. It's 10 times, the key workout, 10 times 800, 400 meter recovery.

and do a nice warm up and a nice cool down. And the kind of idea of what you can shoot for in the marathon, if, you know, it's a fair course and good weather. It doesn't work if you're going to get a 95 degree day and you're trained through the winter and it's not going to work in the Pikes Peak Marathon or, you know,

you gotta, it's gotta work on, you know, a fair course in goodwill. Right. That makes sense. And the, so the premise is if you can kind of maintain that goal pace, if you will, for that length of time, then you're kind of in the shape to achieve that in the marathon. Yeah, that's it. It's either like you're in that shape or it can give you like a, like a guideline of what you're capable of doing. If you really want to step it up and maybe do a little more miles and

You still have to do the long runs and all the other work. It's not just, oh, I'll do the Oswego 100s on Wednesday and take six days off. That's not the way it works. Yeah, that's pretty neat, though. Although, you know, I guess it's maybe a love-hate relationship with you on those. I do get that all the time, people. And I see it on Instagram all the time. You know, people say, oh, I cursed your name 10 times today. And I say, OK, I love it.

That's cool with me. They'll be happy doing the hard workouts. They'll be happy on race day. So I don't mind that they curse my name during the workout. That's very true. I guess to kind of jump back to your runner's world days. What was some of the best career advice you've given or received?

Yeah, so I got a lot of good advice from people that I mentioned, like Ambie Burflick, George Hirsch, who was our publisher for many years, Molly O'Keefe. I mean, they always, I was always encouraged, you know, they never, no one ever like, I had a long leash. If I thought something was going to work and it was good for us and us being running for that time.

They just let me go. No one ever came to my office and said, in my 31 years, no one ever came to my office and said, what are you doing? I never had that happen. I always had the exact opposite. They would come to me and say, come in and say, just keep at it. You're doing great. Don't stop what you're doing. And I don't think they really knew what I was doing. I mean, they knew we were being very successful as a product, as a brand.

so they just let me go. So I always, I, and I, and I always tell people like, don't, don't paint yourself in a corner and don't think you can't do this, or you don't think it's the right thing to do for a company. Just do it. And then if they come after you and say it wasn't wrong, you'll hear from somebody, but I never heard, I never, that never happened. I always thought someone was going to walk in the door and say something to me, but

31 years, it didn't happen. But again, I worked with some really talented people that I really give a lot of credit to. My success was they were part of it. What a great sense of freedom in a sense. I mean, you got to talk about running, participate in races, go travel the world and had the freedom to do that. Yeah. I never turned down a job assignment ever. I never said, no, I'm not going to do that. And the same with

you know, people reached out to come speak at their school or whatever. I mean, you know, some of the things you get a coffee mug or something, you know, they weren't glamorous, but, you know, I ended up doing a lot of public speaking later in my career. And I think if I didn't do those, everyone that I did early on really worked to my benefit later on. And my colleagues, some of my colleagues would say to me, why are you, you know, why are you going to speak to this group?

I would always say, well, they asked me to speak to them. So I'm going to do it. And they would think I was wasting my time. Some people that I worked with, but I never felt that way. But I literally like, you know, when I got the job assignment to run the Badwater 146 miler in Death Valley, you know, that was literally George Hirsch and Andy Burfoot saying, oh yeah, Mark can do that. Yeah.

The race wanted someone from Runner's World to do it and they just said, "Oh yeah, Bart's the one for that." And at the time I wasn't doing any ultras and 146 miles in Death Valley in July is a long way to run. But I just remember when we were in this meeting and they said, "Bart's the one to do it." I said, "Okay, these guys say I can do it. You better believe I'm gonna do it. I'm not gonna turn down any assignments no matter how crazy it sounds or where I end up going, I'll take it on."

Once I did those kind of things, they were like, okay, this guy's willing to do anything. And that's the way it was the whole time I was there. I ended up literally running all over the world. It's kind of cool to think about. What was it like to train for Badwaters? How many months in advance did you know you were going to do that? So the meeting happened in the beginning of March and the race was in mid-July.

And I said, you know, I said, okay, I'll do it. And then it was kind of like no talk about it for about two months. And then, so now we're like May. And I remember people coming into my office saying, hey, we got to get serious about this bad water and you better get serious about it. I said, okay. I mean, I was just doing my typical running. And then I heard that, you know, the internet wasn't around. This was a race I did in 1989.

So I heard runners, you know, put on layers of clothing, go out and run at noon, you know, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up,

And I almost died on a lunch run, running with all this clothes. And I remember coming back saying, okay, I'm not doing that. I'm just going to train and, you know, do the best I can. You know, so I just trained like a marathon runner, like I always did. And so I got to that start line. And I remember the race director saying he had like a little starter pistol. And he's like, and that's $150.

whatever it was at the start of race, 115 degrees or 118 degrees. And it did in the afternoon go up to like 120 degrees. But I remember saying, he said like this little starter pistol, one minute to go to the start of the bad water, 146. And I was like, wow, I never ran past 26.2 in my life. Like you get to the finish line of a marathon, you stop running. Well, one, because there's all these people in front of you and everyone else has stopped.

And two, that's what you do. So I never ran past 26.2. And I'm thinking, wow, this race is 120 miles longer than I've ever run. That's pretty serious. And that's when I said, you know, thinking to myself, well, I should have been thinking about this like three or four months ago. But I just remember in that little bit of time I had before he was going to start, pull the trigger on that little starter gun, I just said,

you know, just go out and enjoy it. Just be part of the whole surrounding. You're in Death Valley, go out and just, I'm not saying it wasn't arduous, but I really did enjoy every bit of 146 miles. It's not easy, trust me. Uh, but you know, I had a good crew, people from Runner's World and Runner's World really took care of me. And, uh, you know, I had a support system. It was the old days where we didn't have cell phones or anything. And,

we didn't we didn't get to a payphone until 125 miles was the first payphone we found and of course you know my crew was calling in the runner's world everyone back at runner's world was wondering what's going on you know they all thought i was dead somewhere in death valley and said no i'm doing all right so it was was interesting uh but then we did the story in runner's world of bad water and what the race was all about and then the race just exploded and that was the whole idea of

me doing the race well someone from runners world doing the race it just happened to be me as the one that uh when the whole staff just looks at it and says oh what i'll do it that's all they said there was no like asking me if i'll do it uh but i do i do remember george hirsch who was the publisher at the time he he and we were really good friends and you know outside of work uh we became really tight and he did come up and say to me he said before i was going to leave he said you know

I just want to make sure you're fine doing this. Like you really, I'm not forcing you to do this. And I said, no, no, I'm ready to do it. I'm fine. But I really thanked him for having the, you know, the courtesy to really, because he said, he knew a runner that did it that dropped down. And he said,

that guy had dropped out. I thought he was the toughest guy in the world, so George got a little afraid, but I assured him that I'm not going to go out there and hurt myself, but I will get to the finish line because that's my work assignment, and you know it worked out. It's kind of fun. Yeah,

But I did, but I also did bad water as my first ultra, which is not the way you're supposed to like ease in with a 50 K or mile or something. I, I didn't do it the right way, but again, it was a work assignment. So. And you didn't turn down work assignments. I didn't turn that never 31 years, never turned down a work assignment ever.

I feel like I was thinking about your brother and how he first kind of challenged you to the first race. And I wonder if that kind of impacted, you know,

you know, like a competitiveness to be like, well, you, you don't think I can do it. Okay. Well, like I'll do it now. Could be, or just the sport of running just gave me that competitiveness to know that, you know, if you don't challenge yourself, you just don't know what you can do. And, uh, you know, you start out, you know, I started out, my first race was 10 K and

who knew nine or 10 years later, I would run 146 miles. Cause I thought 10 K was a long way. When I did that first 10 K, Oh my God, I was sore for three days. God, I was beat up. You know, your body gets used to it and you're not as beat up after you do a couple of races, really trash me. I could not believe it. And I did all the mistakes. I know I was dehydrated and I didn't stretch at all. Afterwards it cooled down. I literally,

across the finish line stopped and walked to my car and that's not the way to do it right I know I know that now yeah how did you feel after Badwater

backwater was it was pretty scary getting home after uh you know i really had that edema in my ankles the swelling and uh i was fine we drove back we flew in and out of vegas and got back to vegas and then i started feeling all right but then the plane ride from vegas to philadelphia that's when man i could barely get off that plane my legs were really swollen and uh

And then I realized what was going on, looking down at my ankles that were just gigantic. And that's not a good thing to have on a plane.

But I think I fell asleep on the plane and that was probably the worst thing to do. So I started once I realized what was going on, I started moving around and moving my legs and felt a little bit better, but I literally struggled to get off that plane. But then a couple of days later, I was, you know, back to normal. You're certainly beat up, but I, you know, I could get back to running in a couple of days.

Well, I really appreciate all the time that you've given me today, Bart. And thank you for sharing all of your stories. You've been, as I mentioned before, a wonderful ambassador, but it sounds like you've just had a great opportunity to be a part of so many races and speak to so many different organizations and impact the community of running. So thank you for all that you've done for running. Thank you. As I said, it was a dream. I never...

I really wanted to travel the world and never thought that running could be a vehicle that would take me all over the world and end up where I ended up running races. It literally was a dream come true. Keep dreaming. I tell people that all the time. You just don't know.

If your dreams are really going to come true. Mine did. I'm not saying everyone's will or, but, but you got to get out there and dream and think a little bigger than you think you can do kind of life. I live. So yeah, I'm so happy you're doing this Sarah, because if there, if there were podcasts,

44 years ago when I started running, there wouldn't be any women doing podcasts. There were so few women in the sport. Right. And they would not have been encouraged to say, oh, let's put a woman on the podcast. Right. I mean, it was just the coolest thing in the sport of running. I got to physically witness women coming into the sport. You know, there were very few women when I started and to see what's happening now.

and to see women at all levels of the sport, not only as race directors, as club presidents, as CEOs of big companies that are in the running industry. It's an awesome thing to physically witness that change. Thank you for all you do for our sport. Well, thank you. I have one last question for you. Yeah, go ahead. It is the namesake of the podcast, which is what does chasing life mean to you?

Yeah, chasing life, you know, it really, I look at it as kind of the life I lived and just always challenging myself and, you know, just being around people that you, that are like-minded, good people.

And I get inspired in my house. My better half, Ann, is much faster than me, much stronger than me, much better looking than me. She's everything. But the thing she does, you know, when I met Ann, she was a single mom, two kids, working full time and going to school. She decided to go back into school to be a nurse when her mom passed away of cancer.

She said, I'm going to work in the healthcare industry because I don't want other people to, you know, when her mom passed away, it just really hurt her. And she'd said, okay, I'm going to get in the healthcare industry. She's a personal trainer by trade. You know, when I met her and I saw all the stuff she accomplishes every day, I thought, oh my God, I'm nothing of a person. She is amazing to me. So to get inspired, you know, just being home is really kind of like, I call that like,

chasing life like you know I kind of think I did everything I wanted to do but you know I can see Ann do this stuff now and you know I try to help we are a team we call each other a team and I try to help the most I can that she can accomplish the goals that she wants to when working the health care industry and really help people because she's always thinking of her mom so

That to me is what chasing life is just, you know, sometimes it's just not you. It's the situation you're in. Better half aunt, she inspires me every day. It's pretty cool to get inspired in your, in your household. And well, you live the same, like your parents got you out there. Yeah. It's, and that would be my chasing life. Just, you know, I physically can't do the stuff I used to do. I do still have a lot of health problems, but I do what I can to,

And, you know, I think supporting Ann is like a fun role for me and I can do what I can to so that she can accomplish the goals she wants to. That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. It's so great to hear the supportive relationship you have for each other. I think that's really special to hear about. Yeah, it's fun. I just wish I had her passion. I don't know how she does it, to be honest.

Being a single mom's a tough job, let alone working and going to school at the same time. I don't know how she pulled it all together. She did say tonight to me, she said, I made dinner for the kids. They say it's been about a year since I made dinner for them because, uh,

you know and that's she's exaggerating but because of school and everything she's doing she doesn't have the time that uh we eat out a lot I always feel like I'm I'm a door dash guy because Emily wants this Alex wants this so I go to this place to get takeouts and this place to get takeouts and I come home with all these bags of food and it's uh but it helped when I do that it helps Ann out because she doesn't have to worry about cooking so

it's all about, you know, being a team player. It's kind of fun. Yeah, that's great. I love what you said about being around like-minded people too. And I think that's, you know, it's part of the running community, right? When you can find that group of people who support you and understand you. And as you mentioned earlier, like,

all runners kind of understand the desire of running or why we run and it's interesting I've had people ask me all the time like why do you run especially when I first started running they're like why do you run and it's like well it's hard to explain but it's just like you got to do it to experience it and under to be able to fully understand it so yeah like you said earlier about that I agree sir

Well, thank you again, Bart. It was a pleasure speaking with you and hearing more about your story and just having an opportunity to have this conversation with you. Yeah, thank you. You have a talent to interview, so keep up the good work. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it on social media. Tag me at Sarah Chasing Life or at Chasing Life Podcast. If you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe and rate this podcast. That helps me to reach more listeners.