Episode 52: Interview with Scott Millman- RRCA Coach & Ultrarunner
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Welcome to Chasing Life podcast, where we talk about fitness, running, career, and life tips to inspire you to live your best life. I'm your host, Sarah Kane, and I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome to another episode of Chasing Life. Today's guest is Scott Millman. Welcome, Scott. Thanks, Sarah. How are you? Good. How are you? I am doing well. Great. So why don't you tell my listeners a little bit about yourself?

Well, I guess since we are discussing running for the time being, I am a 20 plus year veteran of ultra running. I am still chasing the elusive belt buckle, which we can discuss later. So you've been running for 20 years. How did you get started?

So I was originally doing adventure racing. So multi-day single day, multi-discipline sport, you know, doing the climbing, doing the whitewater, you know, kayaking and canoeing. Um, I was doing orienteering and, you know, at that time I had just gotten married. I had my first daughter. Uh,

And it was so hard to, you know, go to races all over the country and train all the time. You're on the mountain bike, you're doing climbing, you know, training, running and orienteering events. So I guess I found that my passion ended up being on the trails. And so that's kind of where I focused my time. And I spent the majority of my time on the trails from that point forward. And

I was doing 5Ks on the road and I had a brilliant idea. I said, hey, let's go do trail weekend up in Pinckney, Michigan, and we'll do 13 miles. How hard could it be? And I don't think I've ever been that sore in all of my life and all of the years racing than I was after doing that event. But it was also the event that got me hooked on ultra running and trail running specifically.

So what made you even, I've never really heard of adventure racing. So how did you even get started with that? Were you an athlete in high school or did you just have friends that dared you to do something? It was funny. If I remember back then, the Discovery Channel was doing the Eco Challenge.

And that's when adventure racing was kind of first becoming more popular than what it was. And what I did was I actually found a race team that was training down in Lynchburg, Virginia was Team Odyssey.

And Don Mann, who was part of the SEAL teams, was leading that team with Joy Marr and a few others. So I decided to go down and learn about adventure racing. And they were nice enough to give me a spot to help crew one of the races and see what it was about. From that point, I started doing races in Virginia, in Lynchburg. The race company that was there no longer exists.

But I started doing single and two day multi-discipline events. So that meant I had to learn how to, you know, climb and repel and ascend. And that mountain biking beat was part of it. I learned how to orienteer, you know, using map and compass and,

you know, like I said, it, it's hard when you want to start a family to train in all of those disciplines. And so I just kind of decided I was going to whittle it down to one and I love being in the woods. I love the mountains and I love being on the trails. And so I kind of segued into ultra running or trail running. And that's where I started. My, my first event was, um,

was Dances with Dirt in Hell, Michigan. I did the 50K. And then I turned around and did a little event not long after that called Ed's 50K, which was a one and a half or 1.75 mile loop course around this little lake. And I ended up winning the Masters in that and only because everybody else quit.

because the conditions were so bad. And I was just being stubborn at that point and just kept on going. So that was my only, my only victory to date. And only because it was a war of attrition, basically, and I survived. That's awesome. So speaking of races, what's been your favorite race through the years that you've been participating?

I this is going to sound crazy. So I spent four years down in Texas and I did a lot of racing down there. And without a doubt, the Habanero 100 has got to be both the most hated race and my favorite race on the planet.

Habanero is an interesting course. It's 6.2 miles. It's a 10 cab, done the 100K there twice and finished twice. Albeit both times it was not pretty, but it's in Cat Springs, it's an hour west of Houston. It starts at noon. Half the course is like dune sand. So you're ankle deep in the sand, half of it's runnable. It's 130 degrees on course almost every year.

and there's one hill like literally there's one hill at about three and a half miles and that's it pretty benign course but the heat there along with just the conditions make it one of the toughest races um both mentally and to a point physically and trying to manage your body for that race um it's put on by trot trail racing over texas rob glenn and i absolutely love that race um

And the funny story about that race is when I first did the initial a hundred K a few years ago, I had made a, made a mistake of, Hey, can I upgrade if I'm feeling good at a hundred K now this was before I even knew anything about the race or how hard it really was. And so Rob, who's the race director said, you know, sure. And I'll pay for it. Well, needless to say, when I made, made the first,

turn after the first loop, Rob looked at me and says, so what do you think? I'm like, yeah, there's no way. And he laughed, but he, uh,

The following year I said it again, and he actually has on his phone an alarm set for 7am, and it's called the Millman upgrade. Well, year two, same thing. Tried to make it and realized that I was not going to make it a second time for my hundred there and it's kind of been a running joke for several years and hopefully I get to go back now that I'm living in Michigan I would desperately love to go back and try it one more time.

So how do you prepare for a race like that between the heat and how do you try to replicate the conditions that you would race in Texas if you live in Michigan?

That you know that's a great question and I started thinking about that last year in the midst of coven and and I really wanted to go back last year, because obviously in Michigan we have beautiful summers and it's hot but it's not Texas hot and it's humid but it's not the same as down there, and I think.

You know, you can get yourself wrapped up into the thought of, well, hey, I've done 100K twice. I finished twice. I know all about it. So it's no big deal. I think the biggest key would be to try and train in the sand dunes like up in Traverse City.

in Empire we have Sleeping Bears National Dunes or in Indiana same thing you can train there and you can try and train in the heat of the day um but it's tough it can be done um I think I have advantages because I know how to hydrate I know what food I need I know the course exceptionally well um but it would it's almost foolish to think that you could just kind of

you know, not take that course and the condition seriously and just go down and do it because you have the experience. So I think here it's, it's finding a location that can simulate the depth of the sand that you're in. And then obviously trying to run as much as you can in the heat to prepare for it. And what time of year is that race in Texas typically? Oh, summer. Why not? Right in the middle of August.

Nice. So you mentioned fuel. What's your fuel of choice? It used to be up until we go into this year of training. You're going to laugh. It is nutty bars and paydays and Twinkies and Pop-Tarts and any other piece of junk that I could possibly find to put into my body. I am now 51 and have come to the realization that stuff no longer works.

So my gels are eFuel, and I also use their powder for electrolyte replacement in my bottles. And it's going to be...

a different year for me as I start to train this year and trying to figure out what fuel works, because I honestly have eaten junk during races for so long that I honestly do not know what my body needs. So we're going to try some, some different protein balls and we're going to kind of come up with some different fuel this year. So I honestly can't answer that question because I don't know yet.

That's fair. If it makes you feel any better, I fueled my first three marathons on fruit snacks. Yes. But the problem is, is that as I've gotten older, your body has, you know, different needs. And what I've also realized is that I may not have been doing myself. It may have worked and I may have gotten away with it for so long, but I don't think I raced my best.

um, in, in the last several years because of it. I think I failed to realize, um, both as, as a coach and as a runner, um, that I needed different fuel. I needed to feel better probably with, with cleaner food. Um, you know, I think you had mentioned, Hey, let's, let's talk about, you know, what, what's your passion? What have you picked up? What are you doing these days? And cooking has been one of them. So I've really started looking into, um,

Not necessarily a vegan or vegetarian, but kind of going to a cleaner diet, so to speak, and getting away from the processed foods. And I think that's kind of what's going to fuel me for this year. I just don't know what it's going to be.

Yeah, that makes sense. I know over my years of running, I've tried to just make those small tweaks over time, like, oh, maybe my next marathon, I won't fuel on fruit snacks, but actually something that is for endurance athletes, like honey stinger gels or something that's specifically made for runners. And that's a little more dialed in to the electrolyte needs or the

just the carbohydrate replacement that is really needed for endurance sports? I'll be honest. I think I've struggled over the years. You know, you bring up the electrolytes.

I ran Rocky Raccoon, I think 2016, 2017, and I was using Tailwind. And this is nothing against any one particular product. It had worked for me for a number of races. And I started swelling up like I, and I looked like the Stay Puft Marshmallow guy. And I quickly, I was asking the paramedics that were there. I'm like, what do you guys think? Is it too much or too little? And then I ran Brazos Bend and

same thing. And I didn't recognize the signs of having an electrolyte imbalance. Obviously when you're racing, it's, it's, you know, as a coach, you're sitting on the sidelines or if you're crewing, you know, you've got a clear head, but when you're racing, sometimes you kind of miss the signs, even if they're blatant and mine were blatant and I still missed them. So it's never easy. I think the body is ever changing. And I think it's,

It's one of those things where, you know, keeping a log comes in handy, what you ate, what worked, what didn't work. And I actually sought the advice of some, some other runners down in Dallas when I was running there to say, Hey, this is what I was going through. What do you think? So I've kind of tweaked some things. E-fuels worked really well for me the last several years. So that probably won't change, but definitely the food's going to.

Yeah. And it'll be interesting to see like how you're, how you'll experience a change in your performance, hopefully in the positive way with a change in fuel as well.

Exactly. And that's what we're hoping for that we see more success in the longer distance for me, my nemesis right now has been, you know, getting past 100k I've attempted the 100 mile distance twice. I, and you're gonna laugh. So I've basically grew up lived in Michigan, almost my whole life, and I hate the cold weather, and I'm even worse at running in the cold weather.

And I attempted Brazos Bend. It was like 20 some odd degrees at the start of the race.

Had the same thing with the electrolyte imbalance. I had a knee problem that I was working through and I ended up DNFing with pretty bad hypothermia at mile 54. And then I think 2017, I tried pumpkin holler, made 64 miles, but a similar issue. It was cold. I just didn't fuel properly. I made some mistakes with not getting enough electrolytes in earlier.

early. And so those were lessons learned, but that's, that's kind of, you know, my hope is that maybe tweaking the diet a little bit, doing some additional training and changing the training up this year. When I attempt another hundred in September that I have more success and I get my buckle. Yeah. I really hope that the race is an improved experience for you later this year.

fall. And speaking of your training, can you, for anyone who is not familiar with an ultra, one, can you define what an ultra is? And two, what's it like to train for one? So technically an ultra is any distance over marathon. So whereas a marathon is 26.2, if somebody had a race, it's 26.8. Technically it's an ultra.

Most ultras start and are at 50k. I mean the normal distances I should say are 50k 50 mile 100k 100 mile and and now, you know, you'll see distances like bad water, you know the bad water 135, or you'll see, you know, 200 mile races and 240 mile races, you know, it's, we're starting to push.

well beyond the hundred mile distance, which used to be the benchmark for ultra runners and human endurance. And now we've gone way past that multi-day events, the trans Rockies training. You know, I don't, it's funny. It's such an individualized sport. I've always been one that's gone on lower miles. So where I can probably get, I used to be able to get away with 20 to 15 to 20, maybe 30 miles a week.

As I've gotten older and i've had injuries i've started upping my miles. But I think people get the misconception that you need to train a certain way for ultras you know certain number of miles per week, and it's way beyond what you train for marathons.

And conversely, you know, I'm reading Jason's Coop, Jason Coop's book right now, the training essentials for ultra running. And I'm learning a great deal about, you know, we used to say, hey, you know, the ultra is only, you know, 4.8 miles more than, you know, a marathon. You can pretty much train the same. I'm quickly finding out that's not true because of the needs. So I think anyone that's training, I think you need to find it a coach that

works with ultra runners that understands your makeup, your time, your family life, your work schedule, and then work in a program that fits for your lifestyle. That may mean 40, 50 miles a week. It may mean 15 to 20 miles a week. I think it varies. It's so interesting to hear that you could train for an ultra in, we'll say, as little as 15 miles a week.

And, or, you know, could always also go up to the spectrum of 50 miles a week. I know that when I've trained for my marathons, like I peaked at like 50 miles. So in theory, it seems like a 50 K at least is a little more in reach than, than maybe I initially thought.

I think where the difference comes in is that typically you're going to find ultras where elevation comes into play, trails come into play, right? Because most ultras are run in the woods, in the mountains, on trails. And yes, there are easier ultras than others. I hate to say it's there's easier hundreds than others, but there are less technical, less difficult courses.

Like umstead out in, I want to say North Carolina is 10 mile loop course and it's designed for our first time hundred miler to try and achieve and make their goal. Whereas something like Western states on the opposite end of the spectrum, you know, is one of the toughest races around based on heat and elevation, so I think.

When you start to add in the training, yes, you could almost train like a marathon, but now you've got to start introducing, you know, food. Most marathoners, like you said, fruit snacks, a few gels, maybe some water. Their pace is quicker. It's a road. You can almost mindlessly run. When you're running trails, you know, you've got to constantly be on your game where because you could hit a route, you could hit a rock, you're running technical terrain. You have to be aware

be aware of making turns and navigation. So there's some other elements that come into play for trail running that don't necessarily for marathon. And I think now,

The training kind of equates to that, where you're going to be doing more hill work, more technical work, more trail work, maybe running at a slower pace than you're accustomed to for a marathon runner. I'm affectionately known as a sloth. I'm slow and very methodical. I've been known to push cutoffs many times during races, but I think those are some of the things that are a difference between a marathon runner and then starting to break into ultra running.

yeah thank you for the insight and for sharing that information uh one thing i wanted to kind of touch upon with ultra marathons is you mentioned a crew can you kind of discuss what that is mentioned that you've been on a crew so who is on your crew how does that work when supporting a runner so my better half has been my crew for the last year and a half as i started

ramping up and racing back up in Michigan. But, but crews are vital. I don't think they get their due a lot of the time. I, when I was down in Dallas and I was part of the Dallas dirt runners, it's a trail running and running group down in Dallas, obviously. You know, they're, they're very good at volunteering at races. And when runners who don't have support, you know,

We usually man an aid station and if somebody needed a pacer, for example, there are six people in that aid station that will throw on their gear real quick and pace you. Having a crew is vital. They help you fuel. They help with your pack. They take care of your feet. They do a number of jobs that the typical person would not want to do. And they're the reason why

or at least a big part of the reason why you're successful in longer distance races, 100K, 100 mile. When I was doing looped courses, I came around Laura's switching out my bottles and

changing you know giving me a different shirt or if I needed food or just to make sure that I was eating food when I didn't feel like it and she's shoving stuff in my face and keeping me motivated so they they do a number of and hold and wear a number of different hats um and they are invaluable during especially like 100 mile or 100k where you can start to pick up a pacer um

They keep you safe at night. Now, they're not allowed to pack you all, i.e. they can't carry gear and things or your gear or your pack or anything, but they're there for moral support. They certainly can keep you on the right path during difficult races. I know at Habanero for the last several loops,

Last couple of loops, I had pacers with me and it was great. It was great to have conversation. It was great to laugh when you've, you know, you've been on your feet for, you know, 18 hours and they keep you on a straight and narrow and make sure that you're drinking enough. And so crew, crew are invaluable during, during longer races. Now, I think I've read a story once about where ultra marathoners can often get kind of delirious out on the course. Has that ever happened to you?

I think we're delirious to start to do the races that we're doing. I don't think we're sane going out when we hit the line. Um, it is true. Um, you know, you think about this, that you're, you know, you're running for 20, 22, 24, sometimes 28. I know for me, um, you know, for the hundred, I plan to be out there anywhere between 27 and 30 hours. And, you know, you're through the heat of the day, you're through rain, cold, hot, it doesn't matter. Um, and,

And you get tired, you know, especially at night. And, you know, with me pushing cutoffs, most likely I'm not going to be able to take a nap anywhere along the line. So those things do happen. And that's kind of where you pick up your pacer. So you don't make a wrong turn on a, you know, more technical course or places that, you know, you might miss a turn when it isn't well marked. But it does happen. Yeah, that sounds a little...

A little scary, but I think you make a fair point of there's something a little different about all ultra runners that want to take on that challenge. So it's good that there are other people to accrue and support that to make sure you guys all stay safe. I think it's...

The same as a marathon. I think you take somebody that's been, you know, done five and 10 Ks and they go, well, I've done a 5K. What's what's next. Right. And then you go, okay, I can do a 10 K. And after you do a few 10 Ks, you're like, well, you know, that wasn't so bad. You know, I'm getting good at 10 Ks. Maybe I do a half. And I think it's the same with an, with ultra marathons. I think you get to a point where you go, you know, how far can I go? How far can I push myself? How hard of a course can I tackle? Yeah.

And I think in some instances, ultra run is kind of where that, well, I haven't trained for three months, but I went and did a 50 K and we, you know, you go and you destroy your body and you do these things. And I think, you know, in the spirit of ultra running, it's all about your personal journey. And can you, you know, what distance can you achieve? Like I said earlier, you

We're well beyond 100 miles now on what people achieve. And you're looking at multi-day, Laz's race across Tennessee. I can't think of the name right off the top of my head. But that's multi-day. You're totally self-supported in that race. And you're covering, I think it's 500K.

And those are the type of things it's like, okay, after I've done that, what's next? So I think it's always, you know, trying to figure out what is next? What, where can I push myself? What do I want to achieve?

And I think that's where it kind of ultra running comes in for a lot of us. You know, whether it's a substitute for other things in our life, you know, maybe it's just, you know, like you said, you know, what are you chasing? What does chasing life mean to you? And sometimes it's about your passion or just finding out what the, what your limits of human endurance are. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a really good point of,

runners tend to have the what's next, what's my new goal, what am I chasing? And just is this continuous cycle of new challenges.

Right. And instead of chasing time, we're chasing distance. If you think of it that way, um, you know, I'm not, I don't think at my age now I'm 51, I'm not looking to PR. I don't think I'm looking to run a 545 50 K anymore. Um, I think my goal is, you know, my immediate goal is, Hey, I want to, you know, hit that a hundred mile mark. I want to finish under 30 hours and you

you know, hit that goal. And then after that, I'll assess it's like, okay, well, I've done one, can I do another? Which one's that going to be? And then maybe after one more or two more, I don't think I'll stop, it'll be okay. Could I achieve bad water? Could I do something, you know, further? And I don't know where that is, because I haven't hit my first goal yet. But those are kind of the things that are in the back of my head right now is, hey, I want to get healthy. Hey, I want to make these changes and train and then let's go see what's what we can do.

So you mentioned you haven't hit your first goal. What is your goal? 100 miles. Okay. It's the one that's been elusive. It's been the toughest for me. And I attempted them probably later in life than I would have liked and where injuries had kind of built up. I've had, just in January, had my fourth knee surgery. So it was a meniscus tear. So it was a removal or repair and then a cleanup.

And so I'm still recovering from that, but it's the fourth one I've had and I've been kind of running on it for the last, oh, I'd say three, four years. Probably not the smartest thing to do. I wasn't doing any damage, but I don't think it helped either in helping me achieve the goals that I wanted. So the first goal is get healthy.

And then I'm scheduled in September to run Woodstock for my 100 mile attempt. And then I have several races kind of in between now and then to build up. So how's your recovery from that surgery going so far? Slow, like my running. It's been tough. I've had...

I had to have fluid drained and then a cortisone shot a week, almost seven weeks post-op. I am running and walking. I'm not running on consecutive days as of yet. I just did my first eight and a half on the trail on Saturday. I've got about 50 miles in for the month, but definitely well behind where I thought I would be. And that's kind of the other hard part. It's like, I'm not...

30. I'm not, this is eight years ago where I recovered in, in a few weeks, you know, in two to four weeks. This one's taking a little bit longer. I'm being more cautious with it. I'm not going to do any structural damage to it, but at the same time, I don't want to blow the end of the year. So to change topics a little bit, we met through the RRCA Facebook group. We're both certified coaches. So I'd love to hear what inspired you to become a running coach.

I am a master golf professional and I have been teaching golf since I was 16. So now going on year 35. My specialty over the last 10 years was working with adaptive athletes, primarily veterans and first responders and those with PTS and TBIs, which would be a traumatic brain injuries and

And so coaching is something I love. It's my passion. I coached girls soccer for over 10 years.

And so it's kind of in my DNA and in my blood and it's something I love. And so now I've been able to, with our RCA, been able to get my level one. I'll be getting the level two here soon. And then, you know, taking my passion for ultra running and specifically trails and now being able to coach other athletes that have otherwise not, are not familiar with trail running or were afraid to trail run and introducing them to a sport and something that I love to do.

That's awesome. So how long have you been a certified coach for? So I'm going on year one. As you know, that trying to get into the RRCA courses is not always easy.

And then over the last two years, obviously without being able to go in person, they were doing a lot of virtual. And so that actually opened up a really good opportunity for me to finally go in and get my certification. Love the course, loved how they did the course. We had a good time. My group was, I think Minnesota is what we're based out of.

We a lot of us have stayed in touch on whatsapp, and so we check in with you know, one another, we have a tight little group so it's been a great experience i've really enjoyed the knowledge that i've gained from other coaches and just kind of the Community that exists. I also really enjoyed my experience and to expand on.

Kind of what it takes to get into the course. I remember I had to sign up for a waiting list because the courses, they only take like 20 or 30 people at a time, even with online programs. And so I remember like signing up for waiting lists, I don't know, early summer of 2021. And I didn't get a notice or didn't sign up.

have an opportunity to sign up until like late August of 21. And that was for a course in October of 21. So, um, I, like you really enjoyed the content and the whole experience. And so it's great to hear that other people feel the same way.

how you got me out of kind of the, you know, I'm around trail runners and ultra runners primarily and not necessarily shorter distance or road runners. So for me, just kind of getting back to the basics and looking and working at, you know, putting programs together and getting kind of back to, hey, you know, you used to road run, you used to do a 5K. And I think at times we kind of forget,

that for us, 100 miles may be difficult, but for that individual that has never worked out, has never run and wants to get up and do a 5K, I think there's some challenges there for them, just like there's challenges for us. And I think being able to now have some of that knowledge and being able to help anybody that wants to start running all the way up to an ultra runner is fantastic. And I love having that experience and that knowledge now.

Yeah, I agree. And it's really awesome to work with someone and through weeks of a program and then see them achieve their goal and see just the light bulb click with them of helping them to achieve a goal they didn't think was possible. Exactly. And that's it for any coach, whether, you know, it's been with my golf or it's running or soccer. It's that light bulb moment when, you know, the message that you're trying to convey and somebody gets it.

Absolutely. So clearly you enjoy running, but you kind of mentioned earlier that one of your other obsessions is cooking. So can you talk to us a little bit about that? What are you cooking? How did you find that obsession? Let's dive into that a little bit.

How I found it is an elusive question. I honestly don't know why. I mean, obviously, you have to fend for yourself and eventually cook. But I think during the pandemic, I really got interested in diners, dive-ins, and dives. Wait, is it diners, drive-ins, and dives? Guy Fieri and Chopped.

And I watched it over and over and over again, every episode. And ultimately I said, you know, I'm really interested in cooking and I want to eat healthier. And so I started reading on, you know, vegan, you know, cooking and vegetarian cooking and eating whole foods and did just different things. So I actually just got into the kitchen and I started with YouTube videos and different recipes and I started cooking and

I am by no means beyond a novice. I would desperately love to go and take some cooking classes, but I'm self-taught. And so I've done I've done some Italian cooking. I love to do breakfast. So.

I do a lot of eggs, a lot of pancakes. I do a lot of experimenting. And it's been fun. And Laura and I get in the kitchen together and it's something that we can do together. And I'm constantly learning from different people and learning different recipes. And so it's kind of a labor of love now for me. And I just want to get better. Yeah, that's great to hear. I

keep my cooking pretty basic. And I even recently just signed up for one of those home delivery meal kits in an attempt to maybe learn how to cook better because then I'll follow recipes and plus all the ingredients are all like pre-measured out. And so I just have to follow the instructions, but I'm hoping like maybe I'll pick up some cooking tips along the way and maybe become a better cook while I'm at it.

You know what's hard, Sarah? The hardest thing for me is having all of the ingredients for all of the things that I want to cook.

It's not easy to do. I think what this year what we're going to do is there's either we're either going to join a food co-op or we're going to have like misfit boxes or imperfect foods just to gain more exposure to different vegetables and different foods and fruits and then kind of look up recipes and how to cook with those things. And I think for us, that is kind of the plan moving forward this year. But

I'm like you, I've kept it pretty basic. The other day we did chicken Parmesan, pulled a recipe. And then after I make it once or twice, then I start to kind of add my own touches and tweaks and spices and learning how to garnish and do. And I'm not creative in any way, shape or form, but I'm learning to be creative on a plate. And to me, that's fun. And it's a really good outlet and something fun that Laura and I can do together.

Yeah, that's great that you enjoy that so much. So to start to wrap up our conversation, I love to hear something. This is a question I ask everyone, which is what is the best piece of advice you've ever given or received? When I was running with my group in Dallas, we had two words that we would joke about, but had deeper meaning and it was don't die.

We would, you know, we're all doing these really hard races. Many of us are under trained and believe it or not, we would, we would joke, but there was some seriousness. So it was like, don't die.

And basically the premise behind it is, you know, make sure you live to run another day. Keep it simple. Don't put yourself or anybody else's in harm's way. And, and, you know, DNFs happen in our sport. Nobody likes them. They happen, but, but it was kind of like a two prong thing. It was, it was funny on one hand, but serious on the other. I think that was kind of one of the best things that we had down there when we were all running and,

And everybody knew the meaning in that group. And I think it's different. But I think it ultimately is, you know, for advice is better to be overprepared and not need it than need it and be underprepared or in this case, you know, not have it in that case. That's probably the other piece of advice that I think has been kind of instrumental, especially during ultras. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

So the last question, which you kind of touched upon a little earlier, which was what does chasing life mean to you? For me right now, it's about chasing my passions. It's about going after, you

A distance that has alluded me to this point, it's about cooking and just basically following my passions and doing the things that I enjoy in life and not taking anything too seriously at this point. Obviously, the last couple of years have been hard for a lot of people. I've known several people that obviously have passed due to COVID and there have been other hardships. And I think

At this point for me, you know, I want to spend whatever time I have left doing the things that I enjoy and not worrying about all the little things and the stresses that occur in life. They're going to be there. And, and I think for me now it's a matter of just there's things I want to achieve and things that I want to do and I think it's just a matter of just going out and doing them. Yeah, I love that. Thank you.

So if people want to connect with you more, where can they find you or follow up with you? So the best place to do that would be at our website,

Laura and I both do online coaching. Laura actually handles and does PT. And that website is totalrunningandconditioning.com. Thank you so much for your time today, Scott. Is there anything else you want to share that we didn't talk about? No, I think we're good, Sarah. I really appreciate you having me on. I really enjoyed it. It's my pleasure.

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