#108 Scaling Design & Creativity in the Age of AI with Jade Tomlin
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Hello and welcome to the future of UX. My name is Patricia Reiners and today we have an exciting conversation lined up with a very inspiring guest. If you ever wondered how to design at scale, how to foster collaboration in large teams or how AI is reshaping the way we build digital products, then this episode is for you.

My guest today is Jade Tomlin, Executive Creative Director at HUGE in Brooklyn, New York City, working primarily with Google. She's at the forefront of design innovation, constantly pushing the boundaries of creativity, technology and AI-driven design solutions. In this conversation, we will explore how to scale design teams without losing creativity

You will also talk about the mindset shift designers need to have to thrive in the AI era. And we talk about the key skills that make a great designer today. Plus, Jade shares some valuable career advice and industry insights you don't want to miss. So whether you're your ex-designer, creative leader, or maybe just curious about the future of design, stay tuned and I would say, let's dive right in.

Hello Jade and welcome to the future of your ex. So happy to have you. Oh, lovely to be here. Thank you for having me. Of course, super excited to dive into many fascinating topics with you. And before we do this deep dive, please do a little intro. So introduce yourself, tell the listeners who you are, what you're doing, where you're coming from.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm Jade, the executive creative director at Huge, working out of New York and primarily on the Google account. And yeah, a lot of my focus is around pushing the design craft in all its varieties. But I would say that there is a growing focus around product design and how we drive creative innovation.

Yeah, I can imagine that now is a fascinating time also to work at an agency, to thinking about the future, to thinking about products and clients. So there's a lot going on. A super big topic for you is also designing at scale, so really scaling product and teams together.

And I would like to dive a little bit deeper into that topic. Maybe you can start by explaining how or what designing at scale actually means for you and for your team. Yeah, it's an interesting question because I think it's not a simple set of principles. And I think it's around kind of how you can...

energize the team to build consistency and high quality design. And that's across like a range of platforms and products. So I think it's really unearthing like the best possible workflows. And I think that

that comes close to how people like to work right and how people will really flourish themselves so um yeah i think once you can kind of identify that that it's much easier to build it for the full team to come together um i think if people feel like they can't show up and and do things they want to do or they're not being listened to then yeah people can come

quite disengaged so um I love that about huge I think there's a strong emphasis on listen first it's like one of the core values um and then how we kind of like grow as a team uh I think it's super interesting and you know even on Google we're sort of like an 80 person crazy right from TV so many people so many people yeah and I mean

As far as I understood, they're basically two parts. One, like the humans, right? Like helping to create a good environment, a good mindset so that people can flourish. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on like how to do that best, because that is a big challenge.

And the other thing is also the technical part, like scaling products and like integrating the team in those products when like the tools and everything gets much bigger. But I would like to get started on the first part of like how to establish a good environment for your team that teams can really scale. Because that's a big challenge, especially when you work with 80 people in a team. How do you do that?

Yeah, I think it's really interesting to sort of see how, you know, I mean, the beauty of working somewhere like huge is like, you know, if you're at an agency that's like,

in the top five of like digital design agencies everyone it's not like you have to motivate people you know people are showing up they want to do the best work of their lives they come um you know onto their laptops and they're they're excited they want to do great things so that bit's great you know we don't have any issues there i think where it gets um

nuanced is the is the spirit of collaboration and making sure that we're all feeling like we're going in the direction that we're all comfortable with and I think what's key there is like making sure that we have regular touch points and so you know the daily standouts if people aren't coming then why aren't they coming because we know they're passionate we know they're talented so they'll either

you know upset about something or or you know something's not going right in the process there and i think it's just yeah really paying attention to to the details um around the process and really protecting the time that people have so if people are voicing they need um yeah another week or something that that we give that to the team to protect the quality of the work um so yeah i think there's different levers that

that people can pull and I think leadership plays a massive role when we're talking about design at scale and being able to keep people on track and be accountable for you know it's a big responsibility to make sure that the work is like the best it can possibly be but also being very human and inspiring you know are we regularly

engaging with the team and asking, you know, the right kind of questions to push through barriers or struggles or, you know, just to excite and elevate. I think it's such a wonderful, wonderful process that requires like a mix of things because of the way

creatives and designers like to operate you know we like to have um different things to to get us going and to keep us keep us going but you know for the for the most part that i would say there is a lot of discipline that comes into it and um you know even for myself like when i was younger i was i played a lot of tennis i played tennis for my county

and coached as well. And I think the athlete mindset always fascinates me and pairing that with like the artistic mindset or the designer practitioner mindset. And how do we build

discipline actually discipline is it can be deadly boring and that's that's okay that's actually good that we're you know sticking to a plan and like you know sometimes mapping it out and coming up the plan is like so fun um and then when you get into the the sometimes like um methodology and the repetition

can be super tough but you know it's like having to practice your serve over and over again and it's that training and that muscle that you're pursuing that will make the work great so whether it's like a robust design system or a new interface and you know visual language that you're coming up with something net new um or new r d projects around an innovation piece

you have you know sometimes you feel like am I progressing is it really going and you just have to keep um putting in the time putting the hours in the right place around the work and yeah it's uh it's super tricky but I think it's it's such a wonderful wonderful journey yeah and a privilege I think you know for us all to to work in this kind of space.

100%. Super fascinating time, super exciting. And thank you so much for sharing that about like how the team works or what kind of tips you have, especially for design leaders. I'm also curious to hear your thoughts, like a little bit on the design perspective. So you're working with a lot of designers like junior, mid-level, senior,

Like from your experience, what do you think, what does really makes a good designer when it comes to collaboration? Because I know collaboration is a big future skill. You know, all the tech things aside, collaboration is a key skill, but it's very abstract. So how do you collaborate effectively? Do you have some tips maybe that you, I don't know, got from like one of the best designers you worked with so far?

Yeah, I think for me it comes down to like three core principles or values. I think again, it's like listen first, you know, if you're in a project where you need to collaborate, if you're working with AI integration, for example, you're dealing with different expertise and sometimes

you know, it's the data analyst, sometimes it's a technical developer or a strategist. So it's really important that we take that core moment in the kickoff space to bring it all in and absorb because that will make the design thinking and our output so much better.

So there's that. I think the second one would be stay interested. I think, you know, designers, we tend to love to play in that world. It's such a rich world. Like we want to look at references. We want to get straight in there with like the visual aesthetics and start building out, you know, color palettes and all the exciting things, which of course we have to do. But I think we've got to stay there with,

with the big difficult problems or yeah, the things that the other expertise are going through and, and, and, you know, lean into what their world and what they are trying to bring.

to the table for digital product, for example, or whatever it might be. And then the third thing is contribute, which is kind of related to the second one. You know, if you're staying interested, then you're more likely to contribute. And, you know, sometimes if you're a younger designer, it might not be

you might be very interested but it it might come from a place of you know worry of all am I gonna say the right thing in this room and you know even when I was a junior I was like should I you know you're saying things in your head and you're like should I voice it or not and I would just encourage you to voice it you know even if you get it wrong um it doesn't matter and uh you'll you'll learn something in that room and people will will love that oh wow yeah you know

um this person is is participating and you know actively involved and never forget that you're in the room for a reason like people aren't gonna invite you to a workshop and and not want you to contribute that they've you know you've got a seat at the table there to to to um

yeah, to represent design. And that's like such a wonderful gift and something that we have to constantly remind ourselves of the importance of that. I think that makes so much sense. And I think, I mean, I can 100% relate to that. I used to be the same when I was a junior designer. I always thought like, can I say that?

But I feel also curiosity usually leads you to asking more questions than statements. And this is what I always really love from junior designers. If they just ask questions, when this curiosity that you mentioned really comes through and you feel like they are interested, they want to learn, they want to understand, and they don't want to push their design decisions through.

But really understand, and this is so difficult, especially right now when it comes to data and development and project management, a lot of things that we as designers

don't have a lot of experience in our business, right? So we need to ask questions. And from my experience, I think this is not just like a sign of stupidity or curiosity is so valuable. So thank you so much for bringing that up. I think that's a good reminder for all the designers. I think also for us to stay curious and there are no stupid questions, I think. Thank you so much for bringing it up. Yeah.

Super nice. So you already mentioned AI a little bit. And of course, everyone nowadays is talking about AI. AI is everywhere. And I assume also a big topic at HUGE.

And I'm very curious to now understand a little bit like the technical part of like scaling products and teams. How does it look like? Of course, the first thing you think of is probably design systems. But how does AI plays into scaling design, basically? What are your thoughts on that? Scaling design? Yeah, I mean, it's...

It's a fascinating time, isn't it? It's just like it can come into the process in so many different ways. But yeah, I think in terms of the scalability that it can bring, even things like the Figma plugins, AI Figma plugins are super interesting.

And, you know, we have a really good relationship with Adobe. You know, many agencies do now because they're bringing out new tools all the time. So whether it's things like Firefly or Substance 3D, I was learning about that this week and I was like, wow, that's fascinating. And the two tools talk. So that makes it even better. So I think it's a

a case of making the time to yeah to upskill learn and to your point on curiosity this shouldn't feel like a burden and I think for most people it's not you know most designers and creators are just very excited and so with that

as long as we keep doing that, keep learning and having this open mind, I think it's a lot about testing and learning. What things can we implement that can support the process and make things better or even make things more understandable, right? Because when we're working to build things like new AI agents that integrate into our websites, right?

very complex it's complex even for our clients even if they're requesting it so how do we use the tools to play back a level of um communication that becomes simple to understand the process i think that's all you know a new responsibility um for us and i think if we can spend a little bit of time working through like how we communicate back um what we're doing

that helps with the scalability as well. So yeah, I think there's a couple of different things that play into that and how we can use AI to scale. What do you think are the biggest opportunities and challenges, especially working with AI? Yeah, I think...

Well, I think the biggest opportunity comes into spaces. So what we were just talking about there around the workflows becoming more efficient. And then on the other end of the spectrum, our creative being enhanced through generative AI so we can be more expressive. So I think

you know where we might have had a message and be able to to bring it to life in the tools that we knew now we can we have all these other tools you know our fingertips to really amplify whatever message um we want to convey or something beautiful that we want to convey we can now do it like

10 times better if we have the time to affect the tool. So those two things are incredible opportunities, the efficiency side, but also the expressive side that like, and I find it fascinating that they're almost like polar opposites. And then I think the biggest challenge is the ethics and already like on the

you know, on a personal note, on a more kind of side project piece that I've been working on that's come up quite sharp. And I think, you know, it's hard because we're excited. People want to move quickly and achieve things and get things out. But I think we do have to take a moment of pause to be respectful of people's crafts and how AI kind of affects that.

And there's no right or wrong, I would say, at this stage. We're at a point of learning and experimenting. But, you know, yeah, on that note, I think there's a lot we can learn. And then equally, even at HUGE, we do kind of experiments with people

with different tools, you know, we make our own tools to better efficiency, whether it's things that our clients can get data more quickly and bring that to the forefront, or whether it's looking at prototypes around how do we make our writing ability better on key tracks that are very dense in

um technical knowledge needs so it's a very kind of long-winded example but what was interesting is you know different expertise coming together as council to discuss these things I think that helps bring out like ethically what are we actually trying to achieve here we're trying to make the work the best it can possibly be and that a lot of the time is the the ambition so with that in mind it's like the

ethically the the best route forward is is when we are enhancing creative capabilities i think that's what we're really making best use as far as i can see anyway right now out of ai is like okay if we could give people the information they needed quicker through this tool if we spent time developing it how much time would this person save how much

better would, you know, yeah, the example of copywriting, like how much better would that be? Then how much faster is it implemented into design? We can be really, you know, specific on word count and whatever we need to perfect, like how we want layouts to look. And yeah, so I think there are interesting challenges, but I think there's definitely

criterias that are bubbling to the top to help us figure out what is the appropriate use of AI and avoiding just making deep fakes.

Better. That's definitely better to avoid that. So do you have a certain process of how you, I don't know, get those initiatives started? So imagine like a client comes to you with like, this is the creative brief. I have a challenge, like a design challenge. And, you know, in the past you used to, I don't know, think about the solutions maybe, and then use Figma and design something still iterative.

But now with AI, where in the different steps of the process of solving the design problem would you integrate AI? Do you already have some kind of like a framework developed or is it more like on the go, always changing and a lot of iteration?

Yeah, I think there's definitely got to be a lot of iteration to make sure that it's a useful tool. But I think the need actually sometimes at the moment is not necessarily coming from the client. We're sort of looking at

We do like lots of fun retros at Huge, you know, like on Fig Jam or like Miro. I love joining the retros. We put on music, like really set the environment, like have a question, have two minutes with music playing. It's so great. And yeah, hats off to the program team who set that up because they definitely make it like a joyful experience.

But yeah, you know, and for me, like, holistically across a lot of the tracks, and the other kind of peers that I work with, you start to see patterns and you're like, this keeps happening, we keep struggling a little bit here, we've set allocate this time and we keep going over or the works not as good as it should have been. And why is that? And, and that's usually actually where we, we

can sometimes end up spending a bit of time of like right well what could we prototype here what can we do here to to make this work better so that we have you know better quality work coming out and it's and it's more efficient for the client um and i think that's yeah super fascinating space for greater and uh agencies to to think about you know how how do we make

are performance enhanced through AI tools that benefit the client as well. Because this is a big problem that I'm seeing with a lot of projects. On the one hand, you have the crazy and fun exploration and the creativity and all the fun. And on the other side of the spectrum, you have basically KPIs, you have certain tools, like the product needs to scale.

And sometimes it's a bit tricky, right? Like to find time for creativity and exploration and seeing, you know, iterating the framework of working with AI and for AI. And then also like scaling things and having like measurable results and KPIs. Like, how do you balance that?

Yeah, I think it comes down to like a rhythm, you know, even the word workflow. I love it because there's flow in it and that's what's got to happen. We've got to kind of lean into that, like nothing is ever going to be static again, I don't think, for design. It's always going to be static.

dynamic, flexible, the AI is now doing this, what are we going to do about it? And so I think getting into that spirit of being able to move around different challenges that come up is going to be super important. And so, yeah, I think it's a case of sort of bringing out

yeah, a kind of a dynamic creative solution at the right time. So I think like there's key milestones in every project. And I think it's making sure that in that milestone, before we're signing off and moving on, whether it's sign off of a look and feel or sign off of these sticker sheet or tokenization set,

It's like, is this exactly where we wanted it to be? And then moving forward. Yeah, I think it's a very kind of iterative process and fine tuning and, you know, just like how you'd have a guitar and fine tune it. I think that's how we should sort of see our design. It can't be... I think, yeah, like most... When you're most in...

in the flow and enjoying your practice um it's not really like looking from a recipe book it's like this is my favorite dish and I'm gonna put this in and actually a bit of spice here and and I think that's how um yeah how hopefully the future will be is we have an element of that

And I personally love this approach of like iterating and like always changing environments. And I also know that there are some people out there, it's just their personality types who really like to have a structure. They like to have a recipe and they also like to follow the same recipe. And I feel especially for these kind of people, it gets more and more difficult in times like these where you always need to adapt and you always need to change.

Not sure, maybe you think of some people in your team who are, you know, those kind of people who really like to have a recipe. What kind of tip would you give to them to lean a little bit more into the exploration part, but still having a structure? Although there is no structure anymore, which can be overwhelming, right? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I think you just have to be a little bit cautious of how AI loves to automate. And so if there's parts of design process that...

you could use something to kind of like, okay, I need to move everything five pixels here on Figma across all these different assets along there. And there's, you know, a way you can just say, I'm going to switch that or everything actually needs to be this color palette. And I want to try it. If you go in and manually do that, then is it the best use of your time? Maybe, maybe not.

you know arguably people will say um you know the physical form of writing actively helps you work things through I don't think that will ever go away so there could be designers out there that's like actually if I manually do this I'm going to think through what I really wanted to do and and I think that's okay I think yeah to your point like there has to be a balance and um

And yeah, a lot of brilliant design comes from having those boundaries and yeah, discipline, I suppose, as well. But I think just being cautious of where you're enjoying the organization and the methodical process. And I think, again, it comes back to that flow. It's like, okay, we've gotten it up to this point.

And now we want to test this thing. Actually, would it be okay if we just use AI to like automate or, you know, a tool, a plugin to automate that to get to the result quicker? And then it's like, we flow back in and like, what am I doing next? I think, yeah, it's, yeah, I think it's still a balance. But I just be a little bit cautious of the accuracy of automating

Yeah, the autonomous part of AI. Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean, also AI is still in its very early stages. This is something that we shouldn't forget. I mean, for us, it's so fascinating to see how we can chat with chat GPT, how Midjourney creates images for us, or like...

I don't know how we enter a prompt and then a video is generated. I mean, that's fascinating, right? Like at least for me, every time I'm like, wow, this is amazing. But still, this is so early and this is like, there's so many mistakes and still with ChatGPT, for example, I mean, I'm using it every day, every single day for the last two years or so. And it still does mistakes. Yeah.

It still does make mistakes and hallucinates. And I'm seeing that and like, you know, need to remind it, like, don't do this mistake. So we need to have this oversight and critical thinking. And as you mentioned, like also think like, does it make sense to even automate it? Or should I rather do it myself? Is AI even good enough to do the task? And also, do I know how AI, how do I prompt AI to do it?

Is there an AI who does that? Also with the pixels and Figma? I don't know. If there is a plugin who does that, maybe, maybe not. Yeah, 100%. I think there seems...

Such a lovely point as well, because when I'm like, yeah, using chat GPT or Gemini or yeah, any of the AI tools that are responding back. And there was this author, I have to look up his name, Mo something. And he wrote a book. I think it was like the happiness code or happy life.

and he worked at Google for a long time working in training AI and he said this statement around you know we should never forget that right now we are training the AI like and that just changed my whole perspective I was like when it says something and it doesn't make sense I could just ignore it and do another prompt but I go did you know or actually it wouldn't do that or

And I still say thank you. People argue about that. It's like, oh, don't waste your time. You don't need to. But I'm like, but if this is a growing dynamic thing, I want the AIs of the future that are going to be super intelligent one day to be polite. I want them to learn the best parts of humanity, even if that takes me a bit longer. So yeah, I think it's important to be kind to

to our ai systems and definitely like if you have um alexa uh you know there's some really funny stories about older people having uh alexa in their homes and um shouting at them like stop telling me what to do if they if they get a reminder saying like it's time to take your tablet and

And it's like, really, we should be going, thank you, and speak to them how you would speak to a person. Because that's what we...

If they're going to be our co-pilots, we want them to be nice. I agree. This is such a good point that we are still training AI and it learns so much from us and the way how we behave and interact with the interactions. And I also feel like if you're friendly, you get better responses somehow. I don't know. I mean, I haven't done any research on it, but I feel like if you say thank you and be polite, also...

The Latin language models are nicer to you somehow. Yeah. Right. But I think it doesn't harm to say thank you from time to time. Surely is. We're putting good into the universe by speaking to it that way. Yeah. That was great. Thank you. That really helped me. Thank you.

but i know that there are some studies around if you say for example um this is a super important request uh please you know take extra care of it or so then the response gets better which is fascinating right so you can kind of tweak it and i feel like being nice and like you know prompting right not like technical prompting but like i don't know like

yeah copywriting prompting can make a huge difference yeah super nice yeah um do you use tools like google gemini on a daily basis in your design team yes yeah i mean well obviously on google we we do a lot of um designed experience with shaping like um yeah the future of ai for a lot of their products so we have to yeah spend spend a good amount of time

playing with it as well as implementing it in the website so yeah I think it's really interesting to see how much it has grown and yeah the different journeys that

um yeah different ai tools are taking is claude as well um but it's kind of more i think uk based um so yeah i think they're all gonna have slightly different personalities um which i think is only a good thing

Yeah, I agree. And even their different models have different personalities. You know, if you look at Chechipiti, they have like all these different models and some is good at math. The other one is good at like doing research for you. And I think that's pretty interesting to basically pick the personality type that suits.

works for you, right? Yeah. And you can choose and like having different co-workers, you know, if you have a, I don't know, data science question, you wouldn't go to like a junior UX designer probably, but to a data scientist. So I think that's so interesting, especially if we think of like collaboration, because I feel like there's also a part of like collaboration, like integrating the tools somehow and fostering this culture of

I don't know, like working together somehow with AI, with people. And this is a big challenge, I feel for every team right now, but a lot of learnings as well on the go, a lot of iteration as well. So yeah. Fascinating. So I'm curious, I mean, you talked a lot about huge how you work with AI. And I think from my perspective, it sounds fascinating, like such a nice environment to work and to explore.

what would you say because i know also right now is like a time where a lot of designers you know a lot of layoffs a lot of people are also looking for jobs and opportunities what would you say um what does a good designer needs to bring to the table nowadays to really be successful or to get hired at huge for example that's a good question um ide

it's really just about doing great work I don't think that formula and criteria goes away and it's tough because people sort of go well I've done this project and I showed I can do this but it's like you know the passion has to be oozing out of every element of you you know it's like

It's hard. It is super tough. It's super competitive for a reason, which is, again, why I always think of tennis because if you're a pro tennis player, it's a competitive environment. I think sometimes we forget that. There's lots of places where we can...

be very happy designing and be brilliant at um yeah having a creative fulfillment but if if your eyes were on somewhere like huge i think it's just going to be using out of you and and sometimes you know you you'll meet someone on a call and you just know within five minutes like

how they're showed up, you know, presenting themselves, presenting the work, like they just, the level of care and love is just ever present. And then yeah, like the side projects and the things that you're doing, it's like, it's not really a job you're looking for. It's just like your way of being and you want to be surrounded by other people in that space.

I think those are the people who end up being successful and coming in and doing incredible work. And yeah, you've just got to be utterly fearless and completely immersed in what you do. Love what you do and just stay in that wonderful space and don't let any distractions or fear creep in.

to sway you away from that because i think there are many people who yeah everyone you know has that ability to to work at a place like huge it's just how much you can can dedicate that focus and and direction and passion into um the right space uh and yeah and you know sometimes the level of upskilling required is is tough and people like well how do i have the time to do this and

there are no shortcuts that's the problem um we're you know that's the the reality it's kind of we've got to make the time we've got to be disciplined and um come together as well i think that helps it's a bit like a book club isn't it you know people want to read a book they don't have the time but suddenly this wonderful thing happens when

five people agree to read a book it just suddenly you've managed to do it and even if you didn't you join together and you learn something or you get the summary of the thing that you wanted to do and I think yeah as um as designers we we kind of got to take that kind of uh yeah mantra or or way of doing um on board but yeah it is a super tough time and I think it's

it's really about showing up as best that you possibly can and keep the belief. There are still so many agencies, so many brands. And yeah, I think it's a wonderful, wonderful career. And so many people can go out and do incredible things on their own and in freelance work.

well that's fascinating to see um yeah the different kind of models of modes of working you know through the gig economy and and things like that as well yeah um I think like very motivating what you just said and such a good reminder for designers because not so much about like luck of course it's also about the craft and the skills

But the dedication and the love for the work is something that you can't fake. I mean, you can try to fake it, but people will notice very, very fast that

And there's nothing better to have people in your team who actually care, who are excited about what they're doing. We don't need to like force, you know, let's do that. But who are proactive and excited about things. And I feel like and I can I can totally agree because those people, they get successful sooner or later if they don't get ill or something, they will get successful because people love working with them. They will create great products.

And I think also this feeling is something that you can foster a little bit by, you know, imagine like you have horrible, like horrible workspace. You don't like the clients, the teams, everything's horrible. You can still do side projects, what you mentioned, right? Like you can still do your own stuff or like join this project.

book club uh like find other designers and create your own design challenges and work on them and like share it maybe online so we're living in such a great time where you can still foster this feeling of care yeah yeah we could remind you can't can't lose that element of positivity and and showing up and yeah i hear you mentioned sort of like client struggles and

you know people everyone has been there right we've all had those situations where it's difficult but i always say to the team like feedback is a gift you know if if the client is happy they don't feedback and yes we do there are clients who feel completely unreasonable but

if you love what you do and you want the best for the work, you just got to go for it, you know, and your whole team will be rallying around you, like supporting. And yeah, it's not like you'll have to be in that, you know, years and years. It's a moment in time. And I think,

It's so important for designers to feel empowered to build that resilience. The only thing we can do to push those situations forward is to go through it. It's like, right, okay, 9:00, I'm just going to go through this. I've had times where it's like a whole email, like a scroll of feedback.

wonderful I'm making my cup of tea I'm gonna sit here I'm gonna go through every single piece I'm gonna color code it I am going to absolutely nail this feedback and I think it's hard it's hard to get yourself to that spirit some some days but like I said there's no shortcuts it's the only way it's the only way through

Yeah, that's so true. And also there is nothing better than working with people who take also the feedback that you're giving them seriously. They are like, oh, interesting. Yeah, I get your point. And who are not trying to defend themselves of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I personally think this and that. No, no, no, no, no. Right. Like what you mentioned in the beginning of the interview, like listen first. You know, it all comes back to like collaboration and feedback and listening and understanding and being curious and

This is sometimes abstract. And I think people forget how important this actually is to become successful. And it's not all about the craft and like doing another Figma course and doing this and that, but really building that mindset, right?

for success this is something that you can keep with yourself the whole your whole career probably yeah so yeah that's a really good point as well and I think when it when it's internal I think it's a game of trust and I find it fascinating to see like certain streams or slack channels where it's like complete harmony you know we're not very hierarchical where

huge but of course there has to be in any kind of dynamic like someone who's sort of leading a process and others who are contributing and making it excellent but if you if there's a moment where people lose the trust or the belief it's so important as if you're the lead on that project that you you have to take the moment to listen um at least and and respond because

if you plow through you lose you lose the spirit of the team um and yeah it is super interesting like those those nuanced kind of um ways of working and yeah seeing what works and what doesn't but I think it fundamentally comes down to um yeah how much we trust each other I trust that

my lead is making the right decision. I like this direction we're going in. Like we kind of need that at every kind of step of the journey. It's hard.

It's hard, but also fascinating times. A lot of changes, a lot of things to keep up to date and to immerse yourself in. I feel like we could continue forever. I think it's fascinating to chat with you about all those things. And I still have so many questions. But maybe to come more or less to the end of this episode,

What kind of resources would you recommend designers to check out? Do you have anything that you would maybe recommend to have a look at for designers? Yeah, there's a few things. I think obviously we've spoken quite a bit about AI and I think there's elements of AI coming through as its own kind of entity as well as product design, AI and that kind

kind of world um but i think it's nice to holistically just like learn how ai is growing so there's a wonderful um kind of like a prominent figure in the ai world called fifi lee and um she's she's brilliant with research and um she's done an ai ted talk and that's super great and um she does a lot of initiatives around diversity inclusion in ai which i think is super important as well

I've always been a big fan of medium, but I've never like really gotten to it until recently. And I think because we're at this stage of learning,

rapid learning around AI and integration with design has become like a really fun tool and yeah, kind of looking up different topics. And I've recently committed to writing a piece like once a month and first piece has gone out this month, which is super exciting around product design in the age of AI.

And then, yeah, there's a couple of newsletters that I follow, but one that I thought was worth mentioning is the Rundown AI, which gives like a five minute update on the latest kind of AI news. I always seem to get a lot more from that than maybe some others that I follow.

And then the last one is a bit of an oldie but a goodie, a book by Paul Arden who was an incredible art director. It's called It's Not How Good You Are But How Good You Want To Be, which was probably the first book that

tapped into a mindset change, I think for me. And I think, yeah, with so much change and almost responsibility of like growth of learning, I think it's like a good one little manual to come back to and yeah, kind of hear different antidotes and principles around how we can, yeah, like have a positive mindset around things.

Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing all the resources. I will definitely link it in the show notes so people can check it out. And where can listeners find you in case they have a question or they want to connect? What is the best place to reach you? Yeah, I think LinkedIn is good and Instagram still play on there quite a bit. And then Medium, those are probably the three I'd say. Yeah.

Perfect. Okay, great. I will link everything in the show notes so people can follow you, connect, have a look at the Medium article and see what you're going to post next month. Also excited for that. Super nice. Jade, thank you so much for being in the podcast, for sharing everything so openly. I also had a lot of learnings and like light bulb moments. So super inspiring. Thank you so much for being here. And yeah, talk to you soon.

Thank you so much.