#20 Time management and productivity for designers
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At the end of the day, it's all about trying to focus on the well-being rather than on ticking the boxes in your to-do list and faking that productivity. And I think focusing on well-being will lead to the better results. It will at least lead you to more energy in a day and more energy usually converts into more results and the projects and whatever else you're trying to achieve.

Hi everyone and welcome to a new episode of Honest UX Talks. As always, I'm joined by Anfisa and today we're going to be tackling a very interesting topic that I think concerns not only designers but actually everybody who has a job. And the topic for today is managing time and staying productive.

I have to admit upfront that I'm not the best person to talk about this, but I'm hoping that this conversation will help me figure out how I can better manage my time and maybe just sharing some of the struggles that we have as designers will help people feel understood and be able to relate to our stories and maybe that will help us

build a better culture of managing time and staying productive. So with that being said, I just want to start as usual by inviting Anfisa to share a little about how her week went. So Anfisa, hi, first of all, and how was your week?

Hello everybody, welcome back on the next episode. We're super excited to have you back. My last week was much, much better than the previous ones because it's finally summer here in Prague. And yeah, summer is usually my productivity time where I have much more energy, much more excitement, much more, I guess, even interests in life. So I naturally have much more, I guess, ideas that I want to share.

you know, make life. And so one of those ideas which I recently had, or actually I had this idea for a while now, but I never had a chance or energy to do this. And finally, you know, summer helped me to keep stay, to stay in touch with my goals and to start working on the workshop. I was planning to work for a while. And that's the workshop about the design thinking.

So basically I started working on this new workshop, which I'm planning to be super, super practical because recently I've been in a lot of workshops, which were more like presentation ACA workshops, which I'm not sure if that's the best way for me to learn, but I kind of

I've learned that I want to make one workshop, which would be super practical in terms of first introducing the design tokens, design thinking tokens, but also then turning them into the exercises that everybody could work on.

solo during this workshop so everybody could actually spend some time training their design thinking muscle, thinking about the persona or the proto-persona and the context, understanding their needs and how to apply this with the specific goal in mind. So this is something I'm trying to work on right now and the workshop will be run in the Figma. So I'm trying to utilize these new tools we are using right now on a daily basis.

And to see really if that could be something helpful for the community, because I'm trying to better launch it with the community, meaning that there probably will be a lot of people from different countries, probably different time zones, different cultures. We'll see how it goes. Definitely I'm a bit worried about the technical constraints and, you know, the engagement online because well, where you're running workshops online, the engagement is not the same as it is when you're doing it offline.

But with some lessons, which we've all been learning throughout the 2020-2021, I think I have some ideas on how to make it more engaging. So we'll see. This is where I am at right now. And I guess that's about me.

I just wanted to ask how was your week, Ioana, before we jump into this topic of the productivity thing? And before answering, I just want to say that the workshop sounds super exciting and that I also want to join because I think it's a great learning opportunity and I'd love to be one of the participants if you have room for me. We'll sneak you in. And yeah, in terms of how my week went, I

As probably our listeners already know by now, I launched a UX bootcamp this year. And right now we're starting to see the results of the hard work that went into it for the past year, because our students are starting to show appreciation around the curriculum, the practical assignments, the whole vibe that we're trying to build on our Slack space. And so it's

starting to feel like not just doing work, but also receiving gratitude, which is incredible because somehow I feel like we worked in a vacuum and we had no feedback up to this point. Right now, it feels like this is real and the students are happy and we're hosting events for them. And it's just like, it's a really beautiful moment. And apart from that, yeah, just baby life,

which is super demanding, but I think it's also, it's really enjoyable. So I can't complain. And yeah, that's me in a nutshell. And so now it's time to move into our topic of the day, managing time and staying productive. And I would love to start, I would love to start by asking you, what are the things that you have to balance in your life right now, or for the past couple of years, maybe? What are the things that you try to keep in the right balance?

Yeah, okay. So this is a hard question because I don't even know where to start from. I think back in my history, and I think we already talked about it, so I'm not going to go into the whole history cup. But in my past, I was managing different things in a different time periods or time, I guess, growing stages. So it was at some point the freelancing and a startup. Then it was building the course.

and also doing the freelance on the side. It was also the full-time freelance, but also another time it was like building the community and stuff like this. So it's always been a balancing act between at least two, three projects every time.

And so I think, yes, it's very familiar to me to balance different things, even though I think I have told me that I'm not the most productive or a well-organized person in the life. So please don't refer me as the productive or organized person because I'm not. I'm a real mess in most of the parts, but I'm trying to grow this and kind of organize my stuff as I go, as I grow. We will see.

if I have some tips to share, but I think, yeah, I'm learning something. So probably I have something to add. And right now in the current stage of my career growth, I am working as the full-time employee

So that's definitely something that is top priority for me. Second thing is, as you know, I'm managing the online course and the community around that. And the third thing is, of course, the community on Instagram or other social media channels where I post, you know, where I create the content and try to be as helpful as I can to the, you know, in a free time, which I still sometimes have.

But as you know right now, it's the summer, so I'm also trying to have a bit more of a life added to this daily routine. And luckily, we have more daylight, so that helps a lot.

how about you I know you manage a lot of things especially right now we can hear the baby sounds so that's a good indicator but would love to hear also what's on your plate right now in more details I guess yeah well I think that first of all you have a lot of things to manage but that's also super obvious for anyone who is following you on Instagram I mean I've always felt like this sort of

admiration for you in terms of how many things can you do at the same time because you were always having a lot of projects and projects that are actually very time consuming and so congrats for being able to pull off uh so many things at the same time but yeah i just i mean you probably know that burnout is real and that we should but we'll get there

So to answer your question, yeah, right now things have changed deeply in my life. So it was like before and after the baby. It's like first year of a completely new life. So before that, I had to manage a lot of professional gigs. So for the entirety of my design career, I had a full-time job and I also had a long-term job

freelance gig with a startup based in Boston in the healthcare industry. But sometimes it felt like a full-time job because I was so passionate about it that I invested all my time in it. And yeah, I also had, of course, UX goodies, which...

may seem like just an Instagram page, but actually it's super time consuming to create content and to be there to answer all the questions. For the past year, I don't think I've been very good at answering, at clearing up my inbox. But yeah, pretty much these were the, let's say, plus I also had other gigs, working gigs in this time. So I had a lot of, I was actually spending time in the professional space, like, I don't know,

10, 12 hours a day just doing stuff around design, which was great on one hand. But on the other hand, before I got pregnant, I felt like it was either taking a forced break or going into a deep burnout, which I would have a hard time recovering from.

But yeah, so I think this leads us to the next point in this conversation. I'm curious, what do you do to keep the right balance? And what are some tips and tricks that you could share with us that help you stay sane and help you maintain a good balance between your personal life, your health, and also the professional goals that we all know are very ambitious?

Yeah, well, we suddenly came to a topic which is called burnout and making sure you don't put yourself in there. Okay, let's try to talk about the things which we try to do in order to avoid that situation. I think because the burnout could be a whole other episode topic, which I don't know if we'll have enough time to cover today, but for sure, yeah, I've been experiencing it for a few times. I wouldn't say that I had a hard time

experiences with the burnout so it's not as well something that I know for sure I need to avoid but I know for sure that I want to stay productive and on top of my game that I want to wake up every morning knowing that I know exactly what I need to do today I want to be excited about my days and you know I want to make sure I'm moving towards the goals or the targets I've set up for myself so

For me, it's also very, very important to just know that I can do this, that I have energy and all the motivation that's needed to get me there, right?

So, some things that helped me a lot. And again, just a quick disclaimer here that I'm still learning and I'm not a productive guru or something. So there are things, those things are just super subjective that I've learned on my way that I know helped me to be more, I guess, put together, better put together.

I'm working. And so the first thing I already mentioned, which is unfortunately I cannot influence or change in any way, it's an environment in which I am. So the environment meaning that the time of the year, for example, summer is the best time for me, as I've mentioned, how quickly, how often I change this environment. For example, I know for myself that I need to be sometimes outside. I cannot work always in the same place.

There are some people who are more like, you know, stable and they need always to sit in one place because this is their, I guess, power zone or power place. For me, I know that I constantly need to change the environment. I need to work from cafes. I need to go to the office. I need to talk to people. I need energy from the outside because I'm an extrovert. Yeah.

which is unfortunate because of 2020. But I also, you know, I also need an organization around me. So that means that wherever I am, I need to have a clean table. I need to try to, you know, have a very ergonomic seat and stuff like this. Otherwise I'm getting distracted because I'm also a nervous person. So I'm getting distracted by sticky notes, by noises around me, by the mess, by the

pen and paper around me and stuff like that. So one thing I try to always do before I sit and start working, or even actually the day before, you know, before I start the new day, I try to organize my table, make sure everything is in the right place so I don't get distracted and I can, you know, sit and instantly start putting myself into that flow or let's say mode of the flow. That's the first thing. The second thing is the productivity hours, I call them. So

So basically it's about experimenting about what kind of person you are and what are the best hours for you to focus on.

Meaning that, for example, you can start from understanding whether you are this early morning person or like a late night old person who runs and kind of manages and builds more stuff in the different times of the day. So for me personally, I know that my productivity hours, the time of the day where I achieve most of the things are around the noon. And I try to optimize all the time around that

to clean the mess around me, like I said. So that means that I'll try to prepare all the assets, all the materials, all the insights, all the questions, all the, I don't know, even folders in my table or in my Miro board or in my Figma file. So I'll try to kind of sort the mess so that when I start entering my productivity hours, I have everything is already nicely laid out in front of me and I don't spend my time organizing this mess.

so I don't waste my time. I actually allocate this time box in order to do the hard work or mentally consuming work where I need to analyze things, where I need to maybe work with insights, where I need to maybe work on flows and think through the details and stuff like this, things which actually takes a lot of energy, mental energy from you. So

That's the tip number two, timeboxing my time by cleaning up the table and making sure everything is in the right place at an order by the time when I'm most productive, usually in a day.

And a few other things which I think worth mentioning, but I think I will keep some things for you. So I'll just mention a couple of things that are top mind for me is that you definitely need to have a good rest. So you need to sleep, I don't know, for me at least eight hours.

and have some time off, maybe do some sports, go outside, I don't know, meet with your friends. Just do add a little bit of a life to your life. So don't occupy yourself fully with working only. And a few other things such as, I don't know, to-do lists, reflections, quarterly plans, knowing and keeping in mind my goals and stuff like this, which I think we'll cover a bit more moving forward. But I want to also give a space for you to share your best productivity tips or time management tips

that usually help you in a day so yeah you wanna tell me or tell us a little bit more about your days yeah totally but I mean you covered the pretty much most the most important parts um but

I'm just going to build on top of that. And I just want to start by saying that what I believe, and you also mentioned it, is that it's a very personal recipe. So it's very much about experimenting on a personal level and trying to figure out what works well for you, especially since we all have, I mean, like you said, productivity hours, different productivity hours, different moments of the day when we're most productive or most energetic. And so I think that there's no

Clearly there's no one size fits all set of methods or tips that can help anyone. But what I've learned that helps me is actually starting the day with a ritual. I go out and get coffee. On one hand, I like coffee, but on the other hand, this means that the day is starting. So the professional day that working hours are starting after I get my coffee and

And if I would go and make it in the kitchen, then again, it would be very much blending lines between blurring lines between my personal space and my professional space. So getting out and taking this break from the house, it means that I'm, I'm, I'm separating the day in two parts. So the day where the part where the house is my house, my home. And then after I get the coffee, my house turns into the office. So this is what helps me. So I think,

What I'm getting at is that figuring out some rituals that work for you in terms of getting your mind to understand that, okay, now I'm in the work mood. Now I'm in the workspace. Now this is when I start working after I do this or after I, I don't know, listen to a song or do a short meditation or it can be anything, whatever works for you. Especially in 2020, right? When, well, it's 2021 now, but in terms of like the world in the pandemic, like in pandemic years,

I think it's super, super important to do because right now we don't have this, I guess, edge between your work life and your normal life, right? Like life, life. So I think it's a very, very good tip, especially if you find yourself like you're working constantly and you wake up without brushing teeth or running into, you know, checking your emails or Slack. I think it's a super, super cool tip that I think I should also try to start using. Yeah.

So yeah, thank you for dropping by. Yeah, no, great. I mean, I actually, after a couple of months into the pandemic and being at home, I realized that it's like I'm in a continuum. I'm like in a Groundhog Day. If you know the movie, it's like every day is the same day. Totally.

every hour is the same hour and every minute is the same minute and i mean i had absolutely no uh no uh delimitation or uh fragmentation of the day into chunks and so this is how i started to uh introduce this little rituals that signal my brain that now we need to switch moods and move into the work mood if you want so this is something that everybody should explore even if

If you're in the office, I mean, yeah, commuting to the office or just being in the office space may trigger your brain to start entering this focus state. But also you can try some things like, I don't know, going for a walk before you start doing some intensive brain work and your brain needs oxygen and so on. So maybe experiment a little with whatever works into getting your brain to understand that. Yeah.

Yeah, right now we're going in this focus space. Sorry for interrupting again, but I just remember like in the winter, when it was my office, with my team, we had like a mural board activity where everybody had to add their best productivity tips. And somebody mentioned in the mural board, the sticky note that before starting a workday, I go outside of my house and I scream in the forest a lot. Like it was all my voice. I don't know.

and i find it so cool that you know you kind of get to release this this i don't know sleepy bear from you from inside of you i don't know it's so cool like it could be so whatever whatever works for you best you may be screaming in the forest so yeah i mean this this proves that

the point that whatever works for you works for you. So it's not stupid if it works. So you should just try and understand whatever gets you in the work mood and helps you be as productive as possible. And another thing that helps me go into this focus state or understand how my day could be productive

is to-do lists, which I'm not sure they work for everyone. For me, for example, on Sunday evening, I get this gripping anxiety. It's like, I don't know, all the things will happen at once on Monday morning. This is the feeling that I have. So tomorrow is Monday morning and 200 things will happen at the same time. When in fact, they're not happening at the same time, they're in my mind at the same time. But in reality, they happen in a sequence.

So I try to rationalize it, but it's really hard. And so to fight off this feeling, usually on Sunday evenings or Monday mornings, I do a weekly to-do list. So my target for that week.

And sometimes when I'm in a very loaded period or I have a lot of my on my plate, I even try to do daily to do this. So I wake up and I say, you know what, these are the five things, the mandatory five things that I have to do today. And then these are the extra if I have time and energy would would be nice to have things that I might be doing.

But so this really helps me a lot. And it also helps me because at the end of the day, I am able to tick off some things happily, hopefully offer the list. And this gives me a feeling of accomplishment. And it gives me a feeling that okay, I've been productive. So this is so I can measure

my efforts for that day and helps me optimize further on. But also there's a trick to it. So what I've learned is that usually I go for the easier tasks and then I, I check off the list, like five easy tasks. And then I have a feeling of accomplishment. That's a bit false.

because I didn't actually work on the harder parts or on the parts that are bigger or require more time or they're not like one day tasks they're like I don't know one month tasks so it's it's a bit tricky to always be reflective and mindful to not trick yourself into into feeling that you're productive with small wins uh fake fake wins if you want uh

because this is a danger that I encountered for myself. So I had days when I felt like, oh my God, I did so many things, but none of those things were actually part of the bigger epics that I was working on or of the bigger challenges. They were just minor things that I like giving a phone call or sending an email. And then I felt like, oh my God, I sent so many emails today, but I didn't actually do the...

design work that I had to do. I really, really love your point on the to-do list because I feel like it's true that we sometimes don't understand that if we keep it all in our head, it sometimes could feel like we're about to explode because you have dozens or if not hundreds of things that you feel like needs to be done right now. Everything is urgent. Everything is impactful or important and you don't even know where to start. So it's like the act of doing the to-do list is almost unloading you and putting everything like

on the paper instead of keeping it in your you know in your brain or in your mind so it's really really relieving and i totally agree with you that it also could be very tricky because you sometimes don't understand that you're you're faking this uh accomplishment feeling by checking up the easy boxes

So maybe, you know, the advanced to do list could be a solution. For example, I don't know, breaking it down into three easy tasks and one big and hard task or something. I don't know, like it's personal choice, but I just feel like it's something that we need to be careful with. And I usually would use more of a like quarterly or monthly plans where I would instead of making,

specific small things like in my day, I would rather try to have like highlights of the month. Let's say this month I want to focus on the workshop building on the next month. I want to redesign my landing page and stuff like that where, you know, besides the fact that you have your constant daily routine, which is like, you know, creating the content, running the podcast, doing the day to day job,

and answering emails, which is normal per day every time, but also having a goal per one month or quarter which you want to accomplish so that every time you have a free moment or a free energy hour, you can actually dedicate it to meeting or moving towards that goal. So that's also something that helps me just a bit.

Yeah, totally. But I think that there's also a caveat to it. I think that there are some people who like easily feel overwhelmed by very big tasks. So I think I'm one of those people. If I see something that feels like gigantic to accomplish, like six months of work to accomplish, then I will never start it because it just feels so discouraging.

And it feels like, yeah, overwhelming to tackle that. So you need to break it down, right? Exactly. Yeah, I need to break it down into smaller parts to feel more digestible and to feel like I have some sort of control or the chance to get there. So I think we keep getting to this again and again. It's very personal.

It's a very personal recipe and it's a lot of trial and error and a lot of experimenting that anybody needs to be doing in order to optimize what works and what doesn't for them. So, but another interesting question I think is, is there such thing as keeping a balance? So do you ever feel like you have, I mean, can you have like one or like more than one or two days per

per week or per month even when you feel like okay today i stroke the right balance or is it just like it's it's untouchable actually and we shouldn't be so hard on ourselves to to to force ourselves into like dedicating 40 time to the uh work and then 30 to the family and then 10 to ourselves and so do you feel like there is such thing as the right balance

You know, the balance is dependent on so many different factors.

And first of all, I think that we shouldn't be too hard on ourselves trying to meet balance we have invented for ourselves. Like you just mentioned, for example, 30% family, 30% works and 30% something else. Like, I think we shouldn't be doing that, at least in my opinion, or at least in my experience. That's being a bit too hard on yourself because we are still humans and we are dynamic and we have different days. Sometimes we're productive, sometimes we're not. But I think, again, having...

something we have to keep in mind is the well-being and the personal sort of how you how you feel and being in touch with yourself so one thing we didn't mention today which I think is the worst mention is the fact of reflection and I think we always mention this in our different episodes but let's bring it up and say in here but reflection is something that could help you understanding what's the right balance for you how you're feeling today do you have

natural energy? Do you maybe don't have energy? Maybe it's the, I don't know, the weather that doesn't help you out today or something like, you know, you can't be too hard on yourself and saying that today you must complete A, B, C, D, E. You have to be a little bit more easy on yourself, a bit more adjustable to the days and

And yes, of course, you still have to strive for the goals, but if it doesn't work out, if you don't have energy and if you're pushing, we say it in Russian, the dead horse, it's not going to go anywhere. So it's also about finding the inner peace in some way.

And the reflection is something that could help you out by just understanding what's going on with me right now today. Am I just being lazy? Maybe my body is signaling me that I don't have energy and I shouldn't try to push myself too hard because I will probably burn out.

Or it's maybe me being lazy and I just need to start and see how it goes. And if it doesn't go, okay, let's not, let's call it a day. Let's try to focus on something that is easier to work on today. So it's definitely, for me personally, it's definitely some sort of a balancing act that you have to have introvertively, right?

and understanding what's going on in your life, being in touch with yourself and seeing really, okay, am I willing to do this today or today is not the day and I have to move it forward. So I think at the end of the day, it's all about trying to focus on the wellbeing rather than on

checking the boxes in your to-do lists and faking that productivity that everybody can see and everybody could applaud you that you did so many things today. But really, it needs to be your personal well-being. And I think focusing on well-being will lead to the better results.

it will at least lead you to more energy in a day and more energy usually converts into more results and the projects and whatever else you're trying to achieve. So yeah, well-being is something I would rather focus on in a long-term perspective, you know, instead of just trying to fake the productivity with checking small easy boxes a day. That's, yeah, that's all I think. But I wonder to hear what you think about it also. Yeah.

So I think, sure. I also don't believe that there's a right balance. I mean, it may change from one week to another. In one week, you might have more energy for work, but then in the next week, I mean, you just want to do nothing and rest. And so I think what's most important is that you track your...

you track your energy levels, but also you're paying attention to how you feel because otherwise it can be super easy to slip into the path towards burnout. And I think that most people don't realize that they will be burning out because otherwise they wouldn't be doing all the things that lead to that. So I think that the right balance is something that you monitor all the time and are flexible enough to change maybe from one week or one month to another. So-

Yeah, I think. And it's also like with everything very personal and super individual. So I think that it's the right moment to move into our top three findings or top three ideas for today. And I'm going to let you go first if you want. Okay, sure. So three topics. And actually, let me try to turn this time not into the takeaways, but main three topics

or I guess patterns I've seen throughout this conversation we had. And I think the first topic which I've outlined for myself is the fact that it's a very personal thing and you kind of have to do it in a reflective way where you just track yourself, check in with yourself, see how it works for you, understand how do you personally achieve better productivity. So it's really all about the introspection. That's the first topic.

The second topic is trying to sort of trying to organize everything around you, be it the folders on your desktop, be it the photos, be it the files, be it the, I don't know, the calendar and the notes you have and stuff like that. So trying to strive to be a better organized person, like feeling your free moments. Let's say you're sitting in the metro or you are, I don't know, on the call and you're bored, maybe on the, like as a part of your work.

multitasking, you can try to quickly organize mess in front of you so that it's a bit easier to visually scan things and look for things in every sense in right places. So the next time you need something S up because it's critical, you don't have to spend a lot of energy and time and mental capacity to find things around. So another thing or another topic I'd like to cover or make sure we touch base on is this fact of

of trying to be as organized as possible so you don't waste your important productivity hours on organizing this. The third topic I'd like to make sure we cover is more of a strive for the well-being where you try to be productive by not only working all the time, but also maybe taking your time off.

going outside, sleeping enough, maybe doing sports, maybe meeting with your friends, getting energy from whatever is the source that gives you most energy, be it reading a book or meeting with friends, whatever, but living the life that adds a little bit more to your thinking process, to your energy, and also contributes much more to your well-being, which usually results in a better energy and also the better results. What are your top three? Take away your topic if you want to also frame it that way.

I love that you touched on well-being. I think this is like, if somebody will listen to this episode and get one idea out of it, I would love that it's this idea that well-being is actually essential and that everything we do to try to improve our productivity and our

improve the way we manage our time should actually aim to ultimately improve our well-being. So it's not necessarily about doing more work, more and more and more like the hustle culture is trying to sell to us. But it's actually about being healthier, increasingly healthy in your life and balancing your personal life. So not necessarily balancing, but like prioritizing your personal life. Because I think that people forget that

there sometimes or at least maybe in the design industry is well spread. We forget that we are more than our work and that we identify so much with our design role because we're doing things, we're actually doing things. So by doing things, we are what we do in our minds. And so we identify so much with this role that it kind of leads to forgetting that we're also way more than that. I mean, we're we are

who we are for our friends and we are who we are for our family and our partners and our children and our parents and so these are also important aspects of our lives that should be like should matter most at the end of the day so this is the major takeaway that anybody who wants to be more productive should take you're more productive when you prioritize yourself and two points two other points that i want to make are a bit more uh concrete um the first one is that

keeping to-do lists, or maybe you can replace that with whatever other, I don't know, a Miro board where you put stickies or any sort of productivity app if you want to use them. But doing this will help you, just like you said, offload the information from your brain, offload the anxiety. So you're unloading this anxiety because...

things feel like they're simultaneous when in fact they're not and so putting things into lists or any sort of structure will help you see them for what they are a sequence of things that you will have to be doing in whatever time frame and the last point that I want to make is that

Yeah, it's very personal, but finding out your productivity hours and finding out which moments of the day and which days of the week and what's the best way for you to be able to sit down and focus what works for you is something that's super valuable because you will be tapping into, let's say, the opportunities that your mind offers.

So you're working alongside your brain to optimize the way you do work. So pay attention to observe yourself all the time. You do that by actually observing what you feel, what works. So let's say you work one day at 6 a.m. Is this working? How does this make me feel? How do I feel right now? Was it productive? Was I sleepy? Was I happy? So yeah, just observe yourself all the time. And this will probably...

in the end leads to understanding what works best for you, which is the ultimate goal of a

of a happy life. Yes. Actually, I came up with, I remembered one recommendation. I know that our listeners love recommendations or some goodies that we can recommend. So I've remembered the book I was reading on this topic. It's called Make Time by Jake Knapp, who also wrote the Design Sprint book, very famous in design circles. But I think that's another very good book to check. It's almost like a workbook or guidebook

where two authors were sharing their tips and explorations about their personal introspection and reflection about how is it best for them to make times and what lessons they've done in this reflection act. So maybe that's something you also can read and see if that could be helpful for you to find your perfect balance and day as well. But yeah, is there anything else I would like to cover before we wrap it up today?

Well, no, I think we touched on a lot of things. I hope it was valuable. Even if we're not productivity masters, I think we managed at least to be relatable in this conversation, which is also a great goal to have for this podcast. So thank you to everybody who joined. If you want to follow us and support this podcast, give us a follow on Instagram, Honest UX Talks.

And I don't know, do we have any other social channels? I don't think so. No, we don't. If you want to submit a topic, just reach us out. But also we would really, really, really appreciate if you can leave us a quick review on any podcast app that you're listening. Yeah, that would help us a lot to keep it up and create hopefully more value in the upcoming episodes.

So thank you everyone. And thank you Anfisa for another awesome conversation. And we're looking forward for the next episode and everybody have a great day or a great evening or a great weekend or a great week. Yes. Great productivity hours for you guys. Bye everyone. Bye-bye. Thank you for tuning in. Ciao.