Episode 12: Design for Inclusivity with Kitt Santos, Senior Product Designer at Xero
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Hi everyone, I'm Dalen, founder and design educator at Curious Core. Welcome to our Working in UX Design podcast series where we interview a UX design leader in the industry on their experience in this emerging field. We've had UX professionals from Grab, AirAsia, Google and more join us previously and we're bringing you more exciting interviews this year.

Stay tuned for this week's interview with our special guest, who is working in UX design. Welcome to the live session of Working in UX Design. Today we're going to speak about design for inclusivity, especially from the perspective of someone who identifies himself as queer and working in the tech sector, someone

like Kit, who's actually an Asian diaspora, who's working overseas in a Western economy like Australia, working for one of the most successful tech startups over there, Xero, which we are a personal user as well, and we use it for our business, and we use it to run our account and finance in our business. So just a short introduction of Kit.

I've personally known Kit for several years and Kit is someone who shares vast experience as an experienced designer and freelance illustrator and design mentor. We first met at Creative Morning Singapore, which was an event I was organizing and Kit was one of our volunteers as well as someone who contributed his time and his passion into the creative discipline by helping us with the designs. We didn't have a designer.

Now, he's currently based in Canberra, Australia, and has more than 12 years of experience in the industry, working along with agencies and getting involved in different aspects, working with teams and collaborating with clients to articulate their philosophy and business requirements into unique design languages in the digital space.

And Kit is also an avid visual artist in his free time, and he takes a keen interest in conversions of design and technology and how it creates meaningful digital experiences. So let's welcome Kit, and Kit, please fill in any information that I might have missed out.

Thanks, Dylan. Happy to be here. Yeah, well, before I answer that, I would just like to take this opportunity to acknowledge the Ngunawal people who are the traditional custodians of the land on which I'm meeting you today and pay my respects to their elders past and present. I also extend disrespect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples who might be in attendance today. Yeah, so I guess a little bit about me and to add into that, I...

I don't know if everyone else who shares this, but I come from a different design discipline. So I finished architecture at university and after that, I think I got a little bit jaded and I moved to web design and front end development. And that's, I guess, where my journey in design started. And ever since I've been working in design agencies and consultancy and freelancing,

Before I move on to product, which is now I work at Xero now as a senior product designer. So, yeah. Excellent. And thanks for sharing, Kit. I think you've worked in both Singapore and now you're working in Australia. And you've worked in agencies in Singapore and then like in a product setting. Let's start with the difference in terms of working abroad.

in an agency versus working in product, what are some of the differences you've identified as a UX or product designer? Yeah, this is an age old question that, you know, a few of my mentors and students always ask me. And I guess being in an agency kind of context for so many years, one of the things that I mostly kind of recognize is

It is a very cutthroat industry. And I think I found myself when I was in Singapore, mostly like having sleepless nights, trying to kind of ship a project which just runs for like, I don't know, three, six months or something. Right. And that's kind of the whole life cycle of a typical kind of project that you have in an agency context.

I think the longest one that we have was around six to eight, 12 months probably. But it's mostly bursts of like short projects, which, you know, leaves you kind of working too hard and really pushing yourselves. But I guess what it did, you know, in terms of honing my craft, like it pushed me to push the boundaries in terms of what kind of design can I offer and can I do it right?

And as soon as I built that foundation, I guess moving into product was really a massive culture shock for me. I remember my first week in Xero, I asked one of my design team, hey, it's been a week since I started. Do we have a timesheet? Because usually in agency, right, in consultancy, that's how you're billed by your time, right? It's always to man hours and a man time. And everyone basically just laughed at me. Oh, you know, we don't work by timesheets, you know, or...

I guess, get measured by the quality and impact of our work. Oh, that's great. And then I guess from there, it just started a series of culture shock where it was really challenging and interesting for me to move to a little bit of a slower pace where I had to understand domain knowledge, which you don't get, I guess, in an agency because, you know, in terms of knowledge that you have with a client, right, it's very fleeting.

you get three months project, you'll learn about something, I learned about that, and then it's gone. Yeah, so you know, you get fleeting information, you know, for three months with the knowledge or the domain that you're working with a client, right in an agency after that it's gone. It becomes really great for cocktail conversations. But it's that cycle where you learn something, and then you lose something in the end. But what it leaves me is that

you know foundation of design skills that i get to use now in product design excellent and what's your preference like do you prefer working in an agency do you prefer working in this kind of product design culture that you describe gosh this is uh because now my colleagues are here but um

I think right now there's, I don't know if I have a preference though. I think I'm really grateful that where I work right now, we definitely, I guess, champion, you know, wellbeing. And that's basically what attracted me to Xero in the first place. I think the first time I got a call, I think that was the main selling point that, you know, that was, I guess, sold to me. And I'm like, oh, great. Because I was in the middle of running this enterprise project. I'm like, oh, I've had it. I need to move somewhere else.

And I was like, oh, and then it was really fascinating to be able to actually do your work on a daily basis, but at the same time, have some time for yourself. So now I think I enjoy that more than ever, but I'm not closing my doors in agency. Definitely. I think there's definitely some gold there.

the things that you can pick up from you know working in a very fast-paced environment so yeah and thank you for sharing that um and i think it's been such a great experience for you to work in

two different countries and two different cultures and we're gonna talk a little bit more about how the design culture is like working in Xero because you mentioned that it's a little bit more chill it's a little bit more impact driven so maybe describe a little bit more about how

You would describe the design culture at Xero itself. Yeah, I'm just going to slip in, you know, whenever the topic that we'll be talking about, you know, diversity, inclusion. I think if I want to describe the design culture at Xero is that it is a place where you don't feel othered.

And it's, I think it's really important to be able to identify that because we're a strong team of hundreds of designers that come from different places and background. And, you know, I remember the first time I attended a design crit, usually in an agency, right? Happens design crit every week. I guess it's very competitive. And the first time I attended our design crit at CERA,

it was almost a welcoming thing where I presented something and everyone's just like innately curious and I felt like I wasn't being judged for something that I did the first time when I started working there. So I think that culture that embraces your ideas, that reflects your values is I think something that I can describe our design team

That's excellent. I'm guessing you have colleagues who work internationally as well. And as you're hearing that, what do you think is quite distinct about working for one of the largest Australian tech startups versus like working in Silicon Valley or maybe working in London? Is there any observations or difference you've identified or anyone commented or is there no difference at all?

Yeah, I have friends who work in those places and it really is dependent on what you as a person or as a design practitioner want to get out of working in those areas. Right. When you think of Silicon Valley, it's, you know, same thing. It's very cutthroat. You know, the pay is really good. I know Jay talked about that before, which is really interesting, but it's

When I decided to go into Xero, it was really all about that diversity that they have. When I started researching, you know, what Xero was, I found out that our executive general manager in design was a woman. And that was really fascinating for me because I

You hear about stories in an organization driven by men all the time, white men. And it was such quite an eye opener. It's like, oh, yeah, they have a, you know, their design leader people is a woman. Great. And then when I first got interviewed, it was a mix of different people from different backgrounds. And so I guess what I'm saying there is whatever your priorities are, I don't know if that, I guess, matters whichever you want to work. But

During that time when I accepted the offer and working in Xero, I think the values that I had back then reflected what the company was aiming for in their values. So to me, I think that was the main decision and main difference that I could probably take away with. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's excellent. And thank you so much for sharing about how different Xero is. And I was just wondering,

You joined at a time where it was just before the pandemic and I was just out of curiosity, like has anything changed? Because I understand Australia went through multiple seasons and sessions of flash lockdowns. And that just means like people couldn't go out and couldn't go into the office. So how did that transform the way your team has been working? Yeah, the crazy times went through over the past two years, right?

Actually, when this pandemic started and the lockdown started, I was in my previous agency. And so I was in the middle of moving to Xero when everything just became an avalanche of lockdowns. And I thought, well, great, I'm not going to be in the office. I'm not going to meet anyone. I need to be extra alert and hyper vigilant in terms of really being self aware and how I sort of present myself to the team. Because I was being onboarded remotely.

And it's always a challenge when you're looking forward to meet people to actually build relationships with them in the first day, because you want to feel like you belong, right? But surprisingly, it turns out it was one of the best onboarding I've ever experienced where

They usually send you a merch kit and that's the first thing that I got. And I was in the middle of a client workshop that time, a previous agency. So I received it. And then the next thing I know, my machine comes in. And then a few days later, I was being onboarded.

And it was just a smooth onboarding for me that I didn't have to actually worry about the other extra stuff, which is doing admin stuff, like logging in and things like everything was all set up. So yeah, I think I was very lucky on that.

Thanks for sharing your onboarding process. And how was it like in maybe the last year or two working remotely from your home office? Is this like your home office that's in your background right now? This is the small part where you can see the kitchen in the back. Yeah, there are certainly some challenges around definitely managing your time.

in terms of when do you actually finish? Because sometimes work bleeds into your personal time or family time. But I always see to it that at a certain point, I stop and my partner comes in and we have dinner and watch a movie together.

But one of the things that we champion at Xero is having really a focused time or a personal time so you can really do great work that's meaningful to you. And specifically in our team, so we have something called Flow Time, which happens every week. So from 3 p.m. on Wednesday to

up to, you know, end of business. You can pretty much do some extra reading if you want to. And it just makes a whole lot difference from the whole week that you're kind of pushing pixels or talking to people. And, you know, talking to people is exhausting, right? And that's what a lot of designers do. On the contrary, people think that just go on Figma and just design stuff. Actually, almost 80% of our job is like talking to people, persuading people and convincing people. So...

Thanks for sharing some of the practices that you had. I think that's really interesting because the spirit of continuous learning is also pretty much what defines the working culture in startups. So I understand you're working in the tech industry as someone who identifies himself as a queer person. I was just wondering what are some of the challenges or are there any challenges

working in the tech industry, being a Quill person as well. I for one know that Singapore is pretty strict about that label. So yeah, what are some of your general experiences? Oh boy, do I have some stories for you. When you hit me up around, you know, what do I kind of care about in terms of, or champion about in terms of design? And when I replied about, you know, diversity and inclusion, I was really interested because

One, it hits home to me because I've experienced inequities firsthand as an Asian person and also as a queer person. And I think it is very timely to talk about now as well because with the past few years that we experienced, like, experienced social reckoning around racial justice with the Black Lives Matter movement, Stop Asian Hate, right? Companies have started taking this seriously. And, you know, we will continue to see taking this seriously

building a more diverse and inclusive workplace. And I think as a minority, we're in a place where we can help amplify and give voice to this cause and movement. And talking about my experience, I'd have to go back when I was a kid, when I started to try to discover myself and start to identify myself as a queer person. And throughout those times, people in the Philippines, for example, you get easily called out in that.

And I built resilience and muscle in terms of reflecting those. But as soon as I started working, it surprisingly, like when I moved to Singapore, it wasn't my queerness. It wasn't calling out, especially in a corporate environment. It was mostly my part of my identity, which is being a Filipino.

And this is going to be a trigger warning for anyone who's a minority listening to this conversation. You know, every day on a regular basis, I would experience certain indignities and inequities through microaggressions, for example. But one of the things I would never forget is I was I was in a client. We're having a meeting.

And one of the project managers, you know, we're trying to introduce us and like, oh, this is this person. And, you know, she's from, I guess, she's from the UK. And then this is this person, you know, he's from Singapore. And then he turns to me and, you know, unwittingly says, oh, him, nevermind him. And immediately I was one, I was taken aback. I basically froze immediately.

And so, oh, God, I don't know what that was, but I'm just going to continue this meeting. And it took me a while to absorb that. I think, I don't know, for a few months, I think, or even a year, it was a time when I was about to leave Singapore that I opened it up to one of my creative directors. And he was fuming. It's like, you should have told me this a while ago. And this is the thing with inequities, right? It becomes a problem when you start internalizing it.

Because when those internalizations that you may have may come in the form of

passive aggressiveness or it erodes your self-confidence, for example. And the thing with self-confidence, which is really important as, you know, design practitioners, right? As part of our job, we stand up on in a workshop full of people, we speak up, right? And you really need to have some sort of, at least some form of self-confidence in that. And when someone does all of these microaggressions to you, it impacts how you present yourself and how you manage yourself

risk and self-disclosure and creativity, you know, expressing your creativities and ideas is part of self-disclosure. And so, you know, think about that, right? And that's why I feel really strongly that at some point I wanted to understand what are my barriers are and what kind of roadmap should I build to identify those and how to sort of help me address that. It's hard, right? Especially in an Asian culture where we

We're not used to confrontation, for example. We're just so respectful of people with the hierarchy and we don't speak up.

So, yeah, one of the stories that I don't think I'd ever forget. Well, it's very, very unfortunate that you had to go through and I'm sure many people go through this as well in their work life, but they don't actually talk about it. So thank you for sharing that story. And I was just wondering when you face these microaggressions, when you face passive aggressiveness or all these indignities, as you described them,

Do you feel like you have to change your behavior to fit in, right? Just because this is happening. Yeah, absolutely. And that's one of the things that happens as well is that you sort of try to shift your mentality and try to position yourself so that, you know, you avoid these kind of interactions, right?

The thing is, like, I find myself on either side of defenses where when I'm being called out from Asian, for example, and I started interacting with people, there are two things that usually happen. One, when I start talking, people would always, it's a form of microaggression as well, when people always insist that, hey, did you study abroad or things like that?

Sure enough, sure, fair enough. Like that's probably a legit question. You know, most of the time it's the context. Oh, your English is great. It's like, okay. The second one is if I try to speak out, people would explain things to me many times as if like, I don't know what they're talking about. And so it's just like managing this, even though how many times I try to shift and position my mentality, like,

I always come with the other side where it's like, I'm never going to win this thing because, you know, it's such a double whammy to be an Asian, a queer person. So it's like, you can't escape it. But some of the things that happened to me, it's not all inequities. And there are some areas in Singapore, for example, where my queerness was celebrated when it started going to the art scene and, you know, started doing exhibitions and art. I was celebrated for my difference and I was embraced by that.

And this is the thing that I always tell my students, my design students, it takes courage to put yourself out there, you know, no matter your race or gender, but you have to do it because that opens doors for you. It takes a while, but you'll reap the benefits later on and you can start expressing yourself and, you know, build more muscle to actually approach these kind of interaction.

It certainly takes a lot of courage to step out and to be vulnerable in some of these situations. What was the most

unpleasant experience? I'm not sure if you actually want to revisit that, but what has been the most unpleasant experience in terms of racism for you being Asian or a minority from the Philippines or being a queer person? Yeah, I think so far I'm grateful that that was it basically.

I don't know if I, and I don't wish I would, you know, that would happen again. But yeah, it was, I think that was the most, I guess, horrible, if you know, for lack of a better word. Other than that, it was just, you know, the usual microaggressions that you experience at a workplace, which sometimes people think they could pass up as a joke or something. So. Okay. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. And I think that's really...

microaggressions or passive aggressiveness is a start or a small kind of like tiptoeing into the area of like disrespecting someone right so i don't think it's cool at all how has it been

Like working as an Asian diaspora in Australia, right? You're working in a Western economy, more westernized society, right? How has that experience been for you? Yeah, well, it was really fascinating. And I think I also had a little bit of culture shock when I moved here. But the whole idea of moving here was really to...

was looking for a place where my partner and I could be sort of legally recognized. And it was such a beautiful moment when a year later, when we moved here, Australia voted in favor of legalizing same-sex marriage. And it was really very, very timely. But then I remember that when I first got here, you know, coming from Philippines and Singapore, which is a very, very busy city country, it took me a while to actually get acclimatized to Australia.

the quietness that is Canberra. So I remember the first time when I landed here, it was like, you know, where's the mall? Oh, the mall's closed at 4:00 PM. And I'm like, what? Are you kidding me? A mall's closed at 12:00 AM or like 1:00 AM. Like that doesn't happen. And then as soon as, you know, it hit me, oh gosh, I'm never going to be in a mall anymore after work 'cause it closes early. But yeah, there's definitely a massive contrast in terms of like culture, for example.

I think one of the things that in America, for example, people are, you know, always down for, they're always gung-ho about individualism and things like that. I don't know if I necessarily noticed that with the culture here. I think if anything, people are very down to earth.

which made my change of scenery and pace and getting immersed in the culture a little bit easier. There's no verbal sparing, like I guess Americans always like to do. And there's always like this big conversations about things, but it's clearly quite the opposite here. And so, which I appreciate.

There are some things in here which still gets to me. Like, I guess when Australians always say like, hey, there's no dramas or anything, which they only mean to say, hey, no worries. It still gets to me because it's like, no dramas. I'm not making drama. And it's just so interesting. But yeah, other than that, it was very easy for me to get from a nation context moving here. Yeah, it didn't take me a long time to actually blend in or even be myself. Yeah.

And that's really great to hear, especially earlier in our conversation, you sort of wanted to acknowledge the Indigenous people as well. So I was just wondering what prompted you to do that? Or is there anything you'd like to expand on that? Yeah, for sure. So one of the things that we do in Australia, especially when there is a

a significant event, you know, like just for example, whether it's remote, especially now that we're in remote, is recognizing the people who have come before us, especially here in Australia, which is the traditional owners of the land, which is the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. And that is called the acknowledgement of country, and that's different in every place where you are. So for example, in Sydney, it would be the Gautigal and the

Heora nation as the traditional custodians or in Melbourne you have the Boonwurrung, Boonwurrung and Wurundjeri, Woiwurrung peoples of the Eastern Kulin nation. So wherever you are and when you're presenting Wurundjeri teams, it's a custom to pay respects to them, to the traditional owners. And that's such a simple practice to be inclusive. Definitely. Yeah. I was just wondering as

An Asian diaspora as a queer person, would you see any sort of practices that startups or companies can introduce to be more accommodating to minorities like yourself? Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I actually wanted to kind of talk about is how important it is right now to tackle diversity inclusion.

And in Xero, we actually call it inclusion, diversity, and belonging. But for everyone who's interested in this topic, I think I would like to start around really what do we mean by diversity and inclusion, right?

When I was doing my research, I come across this definition, it was just beautifully written around diversity, which is, it's a full spectrum of human differences. And so age, race, gender, physical abilities, neurodiversions or diversity and experience, right? And inclusion is just means, you know, ensuring that every employee or every human in your organization feels included and part of the team.

So a lot of, you know, the companies think about that right now, diversity and inclusion, they score it or they measure it using, you know, diversity metrics, you know, business cases, scorecards and targets, right? But inclusion is...

a little nebulous, you know, it's a little hazy to measure, right? There are some indicators, for example, your attrition, happiness levels of employee, but, you know, diversity without inclusion is, you know, will not amount to really any significant change, right? It just becomes a numbers game. And if you just have diversity, for example,

It's just another, I guess, diversity project. You're hiring someone of a different background and definitely lazy and it's quite short game, right? But there is this notion that Frances Fry, who's an educator at Harvard, which is set around the order of diversity inclusion, which I'm happy that, you know, in Xero we're actually doing. She said, you know, a lot of people think about diversity inclusion and it's in the wrong sequence.

She said that bringing a lot of diversity or diverse talent doesn't actually follow inclusion, right? And I think hard about that because it is true. When inclusion comes first, diversity follows. So when you embrace everyone and make them feel safe, all of these things that you find for diversity, that automatically follows, especially if you put inclusion first as part of your program or platform organization. So

There are some definitely some things why would you know a business? What can we do to actually make the workplace a safer place for for minority or for everyone really? Because we know from a lot of research that it benefits the leaders and organization, right? It creates an environment that supports equality, you know,

Equal pay, it promotes, it foster collaboration, better collaboration and communication, but also organizations are six times more likely to innovate. And if you're in a tech industry, that's a very important number to think about.

So we know case in point like Nike, who also has said, you know, very diverse and inclusive organization. And I'm simplifying this based on, you know, immediate stats that they have around their directors, you know, half of them are women, for example.

And look what they just introduced, right? A few, was it last year or a few months ago? You know, the hands-free shoe, you need to go fly these. And even MasterCard, right? Who just released accessible credit cards or debit cards for visually impaired people or people who are blind. So think about that and the benefits of taking care of your people and making an inclusive workspace, right? It benefits a lot of things, especially business profits.

And I always go back to one of these beautiful quotes, Raja Minara says, the chief marketing communications officer of MasterCard, innovation should always be driven by the impulse to include. And isn't that such a beautiful thing to actually promote, right? Wow. I don't know if I can re-explain that further, but it's such a beautiful reminder of how diverse innovation

we are internally as an organization and the way it reflects people that we design for right so yeah i think that's a great segue to the topic i mean zero is a global product right you do not only this design for the australian market you design for the the woe what are some of the things that you have to be mindful of what is different in the design process when you're designing for the world versus

for just like a local market which you did when you're working for an agency yeah so one of the things that we do in Xero definitely is being able to have that self-awareness and cognizant that we're designing for everyone right and that everyone reflects organization as well and so

I am part of a design team where we actually concentrate on Australia. And I can tell you that there are definitely some considerations that we talk about before we start making design decisions. And the good thing about having a diverse organization and having a diverse kind of global team and being able to kind of address that on a global scale is that you can tap on every

one of your team to actually get cultural context, for example. So it gives you that ability to, I guess, connect with other designers to be able to understand what is the context of the problem that you're solving for in that particular area. Because look, if you say, for example, my remit would be customers in the UK, I would have to understand, and I'm here in Australia, I

I would need to have a lot of context, social, cultural, to be able to understand and make design decisions before I even ship it, right? Otherwise, it'll get lost. People won't understand it. So these are the kind of things in the nuances that you'd have to think about, especially when you're designing on or solving problems on a global scale. Yeah, that's something good to be mindful about.

In terms of the research process, because you talk about getting contacts and all that, how do you attempt to gather contacts then? Especially when you're in lockdown, you have to work remotely, what are some of the practices you have in your design team that enables you to gather contacts?

Yeah, that's a very good question because our customers, you know, we design for small business, right? And definitely what happened, you know, to us two years ago and started pandemic, right? It's been really difficult for everyone to actually be able to make yourself available. And so we had to be mindful of when we try to recruit, for example.

And one of the differences that I've actually noticed, you know, working in agency and then Xero when we do research is that in an agency, you can definitely like do like super quick testing and moderated. You can get quick results, for example. However, the way I guess we approach things, because I've actually recently just done a research study.

we in the form of, I guess, qualitative work. And I think that helps us understand the context of our users or participants better because we understand the space that they're in. We get to be mindful of we're recruiting the context that they have currently. So for example, if I'm interviewing someone who's based in Melbourne and they're in lockdown, then at least I have an indication of how I might approach it. And that's just being sensitive, right?

to that participant's needs. So we're mindful of that nuances that people are impacted by, whether it's the pandemic or something else. So what I'm hearing you say is that in terms of recruiting, you're a little bit more sensitive by being, but even like the way you message and recruit participants or invite participants based on that scenario.

but also I guess as a follow-up question, do you feel you're able to get as much context as you need to

conducting some of these types of research online? Because usually I think the privilege of working offline and being able to travel is the ability to immerse yourself as a designer and just kind of like soak in everything. So yeah, how do you kind of manage the missing pieces from that kind of like inquiry or research? Yeah, that's another great question because in my previous agency, I was actually doing research

guerrilla research and in context research. I was going to places and I was traveling where I was talking to people in a context of their physical space that they're in. And I can tell you how exciting that was, but also very tiring holding a Mac, you know, a machine on your left hand and like holding a recorder and just like talking to them. And, you know, they were kind of doing their own thing. We're following them around. It felt like I was a documentary filmmaker.

And I was like, great, I want to experience this again. But then at the end of the day, it was a three-day marathon of interviewing people. And like, I was so tired. The good thing about it is that we get to see them and record them, you know, the way they would kind of do things. Obviously, they try to ignore us that we're there only when they ask, when we ask them questions, right?

That's the one thing that you can do with remote interviews, for example. You don't have an idea where the space they're at. So for example, say you want to test a form and that form is actually based on a physical form, like a paper form. You won't have any idea how they kind of shift or switch code between paper and then online. And so you really have to be very cognizant how you ask your questions. What are you doing there? Why are you doing that?

And so it kind of builds your research muscle in terms of asking tricky or more interesting questions to bring out that context. And that's going to be a forever challenge for us now that the workplace has gone from mixed physical space and online, right? Yeah, that certainly is a challenge. And I think it's also up to our creativity as UX practitioners to create

to bring in the necessary data to support that context or even decide on the appropriate research methods, such as like maybe using diary studies, for example, to bring in those contexts. Yeah. So, Kedai, I want to spend maybe the last part of this interview a little bit more on your teaching and your mentoring experience. I understand that you mentor and teach for various organizations and you mentioned something about you working with students and people

in the industry. Maybe let's start with what you've identified as some of the

skills gap or what you notice in terms of talent, especially in the product design or UX design for you in Australia? Let's start with that. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's zoom out a bit and look at Australia in terms of, I guess, skills and I guess the skills gaps in there. So I think there was a report published last year by Swinburne University, but also this year by RMIT University,

around the Australian skills gap, right? And RMIT mentions about the digital skills. And in that, they mentioned that digital jobs are going to be, are particularly going to be the focus of 80% of jobs in Australia. And I was like, what does that mean, right? And you think about it, because, you know, in a tech industry, right, this doesn't kind of ring a bell to me, because I'm in the tech industry, and I have digital skills. And then I started thinking, well, I'm

Could it be, what if we flip it around and what if you're an agency or what if I'm actually working with clients or stakeholders who have to operate online now, right? And it couldn't be more far from what they've just describing in that you see before the pandemic, for example, I was already running remote workshops.

with our clients in Sydney. And you can see like that online collaboration was very much a pretty new thing to most of the people. And we had to think of ways to kind of go around using Miro, for example, drawing on actual paper and then posting it in Miro. And it was very challenging, but really quite fun moment. And this is what it was referring to, right? How do we sort of help clients or people or stakeholders kind of operate online?

The other thing in that is, Swinburne mentioned around that specialist technical skills, for example, and that's basically us design practitioners in the tech, right? And that's always going to be on a growth trajectory. But what was interesting for me was human skills.

And really, this is about, they said this is going to be one of the most in-demand skills that you'll ever have. And I totally agree with that because that skills, that human skills include, you know, empathy, developing rapport, storytelling, creative inquiry.

And that's the thing that I sort of noticed, you know, when I started teaching students and mentoring students. One, they have this idea, you know, design, they romanticize it and they would romanticize it. No, I'm generalizing here. But, you know, it's a very glamorous job. The first time I meet a student, I would just lay it out in basic terms. Look, it's just like any other job. You had a job before, you were an architect or a lawyer before, it's the same thing.

you know, you're going to go to work nine to five, maybe more than that. So, I mean, are you up for it? You know, I basically, it's really hard to know, but that's the thing, right? You have to realize that it takes more than actually designing. Part of the job that we have

is using those soft skills or those human skills to actually communicate the things that we want to solve for. And this is where, you know, what I was talking about, how diversity impacts that. When you start internalizing all of these inequities, it impacts your human skills. So I always tell them, look,

No matter, regardless of your background, you have a point of view. You have a unique lens that you can look, you can use to look into dissolving problems. So create your story and own your narrative and practice storytelling and practice empathy, creative inquiry, and all those things, because that's the tool that you're going to be using along with your technical design skills.

Yeah, and thank you for sharing that. And this is probably one of the most underappreciated areas that I don't think a lot of traditional education institutions have placed a focus on, which is like, how can

designers collaborate better together, how can they better communicate or tell the story or even sell the design to a stakeholder or how can they involve them in that collaborative process, especially when working remotely. All those things are challenges. Yeah, absolutely. I can tell you one particular student who came to me to ask for a portfolio review.

The portfolio was freaking amazing. This person worked in one of the biggest tech companies from Google to Uber to Facebook. And I kid you not, the portfolio was 150 pages.

And I'm like, I'm not going to read this whole 150 pages. So we sat down, look, what is your goal that you want to have in terms of storytelling and impact? So storytelling is equally as important as also as editing. You know, so when you know how to tell a story, you know which one to cut and which ones you can use to make that impact that you want, right?

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think the art of being concise is an underappreciated skill. Artistically terse, yes.

And I was just wondering, you've mentored a lot of students, you've seen a lot of portfolios and probably you participated in some of the hiring positions at Xero as well. As you're looking at portfolios, what would be your advice to a junior designer or to a mid-career person trying to transition into this industry? What are the common mistakes you're seeing in these portfolios?

So like I mentioned, it's that particular voice that you have. I always ask them, you know, and also, you know, personality as well. It's not always, you know, your technical design skills. It's all about you as well. What can you add in the table as an addition to our team, for example? And I can tell you have so many people who have come from different backgrounds. I remember one person asked us on one of our Slack channels, you know,

What job did he used to have before he became a designer? And one was a classical pianist. And I was like, oh, that must have a really amazing discipline, you know, doing design every day. And then there was one who really struck me who was a used to be a truck driver in South Africa. And he used to teach other people how to drive trucks.

And so people who come from unfortunate backgrounds, right? And it basically started his interest in UX design. And to me, that's one of the fascinating stories in which I look at a lens in terms of hiring. It's, you know, sometimes people think, oh, you have to be able to do this, you know, technical stuff. Yes, correct. But it's also more than that.

If I'm talking to students who are applying for a job, I always tell them, look, you got this, but you've got to understand the organization that you're applying for. What are the values that they have? Do they reflect your own values and which values actually resonates more with you? Because ultimately you want to be working with an organization where you feel you can, I guess, communicate your authentic self, right? And so as an interviewer, I have to think about tricky questions to kind of surface these questions.

nuances with the people that we interview, because it's not always about your technical skills. Yeah, that's such an important point. Is there a good way for someone who is maybe a little bit lost, maybe a little bit confused to find his or her voice? Yeah, one of the things that I send my students as a, you know, on the first day as a package is this video, kinetic video, and it's called The Gap.

So the gap is actually, it was based on an article I think written or maybe by Ira Glass, which is the host of This American Life. Is it by Ira Glass? Ira Glass. Yes. IRA. So the gap basically talks about, so you start in design, right? You started thinking about that because you have a taste. That taste is that little voice that you have that you use to be able to

for you to use as a springboard in terms of how you want to develop your design, right? You know, it's small, but soon as you get more experience and not just design, it's connecting ideas together, right? People always think that, oh, you know, I'm going to be designing and, you

When I ask people, well, what do you do after work or weekends? I go, I just sit around and things like that. And I'm like, so you're just basically a designer Monday to Friday, right?

I mean, no one answers that, but where I'm getting at is there are parts of creativity that you can use and tap into to connect together and piece this together, right? It takes a while to make these connections, but you have that already. You have a taste, you know what good design is, and that's a good start for you. The only thing that you need to do is find those dots.

expose yourself to, you know, not just design, you know, to films and books and other art, and it'll help you open other areas that you probably wouldn't have tapped into on a regular basis.

And that's what basically creativity is about. And you're using your everyday design problem solving. I think it's great because earlier when I was introducing you, I recall that you also, you are someone who's passionate about illustration. Would you like to tell us a little bit more like how this is

interest or this hobby or this side hustle has sort of like maybe helped you secure your jobs or help you define yourself as a as a creative yeah so I was really grateful when I was in Singapore that the art scene embraced me and I was doing exhibitions with individually and with a group of people and I found myself getting interviewed do not google that interview but um

Art is a very personal thing. When you interview people to talk about it, it's either going to be highfalutin or, you know, because it comes from a personal place, right? So what it taught me is to actually use my, you know, when you pitch, my pitching skills for design to actually explain what the kind of art I'm doing or the kind of exhibition that I was participating in. So

That basically, I guess, honing those things together basically kind of helped me hone not just design or creativity alone. And I think having interest in other things to help you a lot in terms of in terms of honing your creativity.

Yeah, I was just reminded as I was trying to Google the interview that we had this brief stint where you and I, we were volunteering at Creative Mornings together with Kiara, who used to be the editor of Grid magazine in the Philippines. And I just noticed that you also are a journalist.

Or was a journalist interviewing people? Yeah, like you want to talk a little bit about that and how that sort of like played to the whole mix of who you are as a creative? This is crazy. But I think that's one of the highlight of like working, you know, with Chiara on that on Grid magazine was being able to

being the same page and actually understanding and getting to know Alexandra Cousteau. For anyone who isn't aware of her, she's an explorer whose father is, I forgot what her name was, but who's a very well-renowned French sea explorer. And so I think that was a very interesting project. Did you also choose illustrations because they look really beautiful?

Yeah, I did. And, you know, and so a year later she posted an Instagram and I was, I was in cloud nine. I wasn't expecting it, but I think this is where, like I said, having variety of interests, whether it's, you know, art or other things really help you understand.

understand your true potential and explore other avenues in terms of culminating that creativity and design. Yeah, that's excellent. And I really want to bring everything back into this topic of diversity and inclusion. You've taken us on a journey almost on how diverse is your workplace and how your workplace celebrates diversity and inclusion in very small ways. I mean, even the simple act of asking what were you doing

before you became a designer, I think that is a very simple act of inclusion. - Absolutely. - Yeah, I was just wondering if you have any final thoughts on the overall theme and topic that we have today, or even like final advice that you would like to give other design leaders or design students. - Yeah, for sure. If I'm gonna summarize it, think about diversity and inclusion and what it means to your organization and find ways to actually amplify that voice

not just for yourself as a minority, if you identify as minority or not, but for your other team as well, because it is a responsibility as humans to make the environment that we work in a safe place for other people so we can flourish as an organization, because when we flourish as humans in a team or an organizational environment,

things get better. And like I said, we are open to being vulnerable. We're open to change and innovation. So it's definitely a win-win for everyone. And excellent advice. With that note, we'll end the live session. Thank you, Kit, for joining us from Australia and staying up late for this. Really appreciate it. Everyone have a good night and I'll see you around. I hope you enjoyed this episode.

If you did, please let me know what you think. Get in touch with me over email at mail at curiouscore.com. I would love to hear from you. Do also check out our previous interviews and other free resources at curiouscore.com. And until next time, I'll see you on the next episode. Take care and keep leaning into change.