Episode 17: The Value of UX Internships & Degrees with Jingxiu Cheng, User Experience Architect at Defence Science and Technology Agency (DSTA)
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Hi everyone, I'm Dalen, founder and design educator at Curious Core.

Welcome to our Working in UX Design podcast series where we interview a UX design leader in the industry on their experience in this emerging field. We've had UX professionals from Grab, AirAsia, Google and more join us previously and we're bringing you more exciting interviews this year. Stay tuned for this week's interview with our special guest who is working in UX design.

All right, welcome everyone. This is Daylan over here and welcome to another session of Working in UX Design. And tonight we have a very special guest, Jingxiu Cheng, who is a UX designer for the Defence Science and Technology Agency in Singapore.

They're in charge of helping back up our military and I'll let Jingxiu explain later what they do exactly. But Jingxiu is someone who has been trained in the discipline of human-computer interaction. So he actually has a master's degree in human-computer interaction as well as a bachelor's in psychology.

So I'm here to speak with him today about the value of UX internships and degrees, knowing that he has actually done internships when he was in London as well, as well as he himself acquiring a degree and he himself finding a job and recently landing a role as a UX designer here locally. So it's my pleasure to welcome Jingxiu Cheng. So Jingxiu, how are you doing?

I'm good today, thank you for the very warm introduction. Thank you everyone for joining in and listening. I hope I can share some of my insights that hopefully will be valuable to all of you. Today I just came back from work an hour ago, so it's been a long day but I'm excited to take part in this webinar.

Actually, let me just start off by asking you, you know, like, what do you do on a day-to-day basis with our Defence Science and Technology Agency in Singapore? Yeah, sure. I can share, like, what my day-to-day is mostly like. So, yeah, my role at DSTA, so we now call it DSTA for short, and basically I'm a UX architect there. So there's this, like, differentiation between

For the UX practitioners in DSTA, they kind of differentiate between UX architects and UX designers. So what the difference is, is that UX architects focus more on the usability of a product. So we tend to work more on like broader interaction design and the information architecture of a system coming up with like user flows, wireframes and more mid-fly prototypes. Whereas the UX designers in

DSTA tend to focus more on the desirability of a system. So they work more on the visual design and coming up with more high fidelity prototypes and design mockups. So yeah, as a UX architect, my focus is on designing for usability. So my main contribution comes in terms of the interaction design and the information architecture of the system, which I tend to back up using user research as well as design principles or HCI principles.

So my day to day, it varies every day. I think that every day is quite different, but I guess it comprises mainly of a few activities. I think one activity is conducting some user research sessions. So this could range from anything. It could be interviews, could be user testing, could be design studios or workshops.

If I'm not doing user research, another thing I might be doing is having a work session. So sometimes I work alone, whereas most of the time I work in a team. And what we're doing is coming up with research artifacts. So things like the personas, our user journey maps, the information architecture. Or we also work with design artifacts. So coming up with wireframes, prototypes, and design mockups that might be useful, like user testing later on.

Yeah, apart from the work sessions, I also, apart from that, most of my day is spent in team meetings. So I'm working on two different projects right now. So during my projects, I have to sync up with two separate teams that comprise of other UX designers, project managers, software engineers, and analysts. And then finally, if I'm not doing any of those things, we

have quite a lot of learning and courage in DST. So I could be doing a course to upscale my skill set or my domain knowledge. And we also have lots of team sharings within the UX team where we learn from one another and also maybe provide feedback to each other on our own projects. So yeah, I think broadly in a very long answer, I think that's what like

My day tends to consist of these activities and no two days are the same. So I guess that's what makes it exciting. Well, thank you for sharing such a comprehensive answer, Jingxiu. So I was just wondering, you know, Defence Science Technology Agency sounds like the CIA, you know, sounds very secretive. So I was just wondering why does an organisation that helps support our military in Singapore, why do they need UX designers?

Yeah, so I mean, so DSTA, obviously what we're designing tend to be defense systems. And I think UX is especially important like for defense systems because of a few reasons that make like defense systems a bit more different from, I guess, more commercial or like customer facing systems. So I think like one thing to think about is the context that

we are designing for. So in the Fence systems, the users tend to be kind of

interacting under probably a highly stressful environment. There might be higher cognitive load, you might have a lot of information that you have to deal with very quickly. So I think that's why we need UX designers because making this experience as intuitive, as user-friendly as possible is ideal because we're able to support users in sense-making, in decision-making under these highly stressful environments. I think another thing that why

UX is important in a defense system is also because of the consequences of errors. So in a defense system, the errors can be a lot more costly rather than compared to a commercial system where it could just be a minor inconvenience. I think in a defense system, you can easily recover from some errors just by clicking an undo button. So in that case, good usability is especially important as there's a higher need to

designed for error prevention or error recovery. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And earlier you mentioned there's a difference between the role of a UX architect and a UX designer. And you mentioned yours is that of a UX architect. I can imagine that your responsibilities are great because human lives are in your hands in some cases, right? Because as you're designing different

systems for our defense and military over here. So moving on to the main topic of this evening, I wanted to just really chat with you on your journey, right? You went to London to actually pursue a master's in human computer interaction, which is traditionally, if anyone wants to be

a UX designer in any company that's the master degree that they will go for. So walk me through this process, like how did you come to make that decision about going for a degree instead of like going to a bootcamp or instead of doing like self-study? How did you came with that decision and why London?

Yeah, so I think my journey into my master's is a little bit complicated and quite personal. So if I share a bit more about that, like basically I was doing my bachelor's in psychology already in London. And I think like in the past, my goal was to

go into a different field. I wanted to become an academic researcher in psychology. So when I was in my undergrad years, I did quite a lot of internships in various psychology research labs, including one in the US at Johns Hopkins University. Yeah, so I was actually planning to pursue a master's in psychology and followed by a PhD and going to the academic world of becoming a professor in psychology. But I think in my third year, because of some personal reasons,

I chanced upon the UX field and the HCI discipline and I got really interested in it

and because I was always going to do a master's anyway I think and I was choosing like between a psychology master's at Oxford University versus this like HCI degree at UCL I decided to like take a plunge into this career switch and that's why I chanced into like master's in HCI I think that's how I got into this master's it's quite a unique and personal journey but

Yeah, it was quite interesting. It was less for me a decision of choosing between a master's versus a bootcamp or doing self-study.

But I think I can definitely share my thought process regarding that aspect of it as well, and what are the differences between a Master's as well as a bootcamp and self-study. So tell us a little bit about you spending one year in your Master's program learning about human-computer interaction. What are your takeaways from the program? Yeah, sure. I can definitely share that.

Maybe I'll share a little bit more about how the degree is structured so people can have a better idea. So the master's degree, if you do it in the UK, it tends to only be one year compared to in the US and some other countries, sometimes it's two years. So it depends on where you're doing it. So the one I did was at UCL, which stands for University College London.

Basically the master's degree was split into three terms. The first term was more of a foundational term where we did quite like foundational modules. So one was called interaction science, one was called interaction design and I think we really learned the theory in depth about what goes into the design of interactive products.

And then in the second term, we had more like specialized and optional modules so we could explore our areas of interest. So I did modules like future interfaces, accessibility and assistive technologies, serious and persuasive games, and user-centered data visualizations, which I found especially useful.

And then in our final term, which is the third term, we do a dissertation. So this is a more academically focused project, but there's a possibility of industry collaboration, which I managed to do, which was a really useful experience. So the masters explained to these three terms, and I think what was really valuable is I feel like I really got a very strong in-depth knowledge of human-computer interaction principles and

I think that really helps in my work as a UX designer because I feel like I'm able to think about all these principles as I'm coming out with the designs and being able to justify a lot of my design decisions based on the principles that I've learned in this degree. Well, thank you for sharing. And may I ask, usually those who actually teach you in terms of the HCI course, we're talking about what do the professors specialise in?

Yeah, so the professors could specialize in a load of different things. The interesting part about HCI is that just like UX, people come from many different backgrounds. So there could be some that come from computer science backgrounds, some that come from more like social sciences backgrounds, some that come from more design backgrounds, and the things that they focus on could be very different. So some of the professors might really focus on

some of the design methods. I had a professor that was really involved in sketching and how sketching can be used as a tool to

UX design or in HCI. Other professors that specialize more in data visualizations, some that specialize more in game design. And I think there's a whole broad range of specializations that the professors have. Yeah, thanks for sharing. And it sounds very cross-disciplinary. Is the student body also very cross-disciplinary? Like where did they sort of like major in and, you know, where did they end up in later? Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. I think the student body is very cross-disciplinary. So for me myself, I come from a more like social sciences background and there are many that come from fields like psychology or anthropology as well where I think our strengths lie more in the research methods of it or designing experimental studies and I think a lot of the people that come from this field end up going to more like user researcher roles. Apart from social sciences, there are

A lot of people came from design background as well. So they could have specialized in like industrial design or graphic design and wanted to transition into UX and a lot of these people ended up

more like visual designers or UI focused designers and quite a few come from computer science background as well so they have quite good knowledge in development, in coding and I think a lot of these people end up either in the UX designer role or more UX engineer role as they call it so they can do more high-efficiency prototypes with this code involved at a simpler level so I think these are the different diverse backgrounds that

people come from. So it sounds quite research focused, but also there are some designers who are interested to transition into the few, very much like our programs as well. We usually have about half the participants being from the design

industry, whether it's architecture or whether it's graphic design or interior design. So I was also wondering, being in London, tell us a little bit more about being in London and your internship in London and the practice of UX in London. What can you share with us?

Yeah, so I think like personally first, I love being in London. I think it's really interesting to be in a different country. Because for me, I grew up in Singapore all my life. So if we spend a few years in London, living a completely different life, meeting people from completely different cultures, making friends there that are very different from the friends that I've made in Singapore, I think that was such an exciting experience overall.

I guess my internship experience. So, like I mentioned, I think the most relevant internship experience I had in London was related to my Master's degree. So, like I mentioned before, in the term of the degree, we do research project and my research project was in collaboration with a data science company in London. And so, apart from the academic contribution of my work, I did a lot of UX design work as well. So,

Just some background about the project. This is a data science company that works with retailers and brands in the fast-moving consumer goods industry, so the FMCG industry. So they work closely with the equivalent of NTUC, Fairprice or Cool Storage in Singapore. And what they do is they use the insights from customer data to help their clients to boost their sales, build their customer loyalty, increase shopper satisfaction, etc.

So the problem that was surfaced was that employees in the company regularly use this data analysis tool to

analyze the customer transaction data of these tools and they commented that the tool was very unintuitive and difficult to use. So that's where I came into the project and I came in as a designer that aimed to improve the learnability as well as the usability of this data analysis tool. So I went through the whole UX process of conducting the initial user research, defining the requirements,

ideation, creating an interactive prototype and evaluating the design.

And then I think the outcome of it was that I received positive feedback from the users as well as my supervisors on this project. And my research artifacts and design recommendations that I came up with during the project was passed on to the development team for future implementation. It sounds like a great project and congratulations to having your designs implemented and live out there in the wild. How long was that internship for you?

Yeah, so it was about four months. Okay. So yeah, I'm curious about the practice, you know, now that you are working in a Singapore setting, right? With your team from Singapore and UX designers from Singapore, and you were in London working with your professors, working with this company you mentioned about. Would you say that's sort of like a difference in terms of the practice or maturity of things?

Yeah, I think this is a tricky question but one that is often asked. A lot of people ask me about what the difference working in the UK versus working in Singapore. And in general, I would think that the practice in the UK can be slightly higher than Singapore in terms of the UX maturity.

But I also think it's quite difficult to generalize that because I think having worked in multiple companies in both Singapore and the UK, I think it really depends a lot on the company itself and the mentors in the company itself because I think there's a lot of different standings. One thing that I might say for me I personally felt is different is the culture that I feel like in the UK,

there's a lot more focus on the people and the relationships and like cultivating that culture and relationships whereas I think in Singapore people tend to be more efficient in that sense but also more work focused so I think from my experience like when I'm working with people from the UK it tends to be more like chit chat or like

catch-ups like at the start and the end of meetings where you just like talk for like 10, 15 or even 20 minutes like before a meeting to

understand what our own personal lives. Whereas I feel like sometimes in Singapore, when I go into a meeting, it's like straight to the work, what's happening, what needs to be done, and let's dive straight into it. So I think there's pros and cons. Obviously, I think the Singapore system can be a bit more efficient in that sense because you get things done more quickly. The meetings are not dragged longer, but also sometimes there's a need to focus more on cultivating that relationship too.

But I want to give a caveat as well that I think this is also quite difficult to generalize because I think each company has their own culture. So it really depends on the people you're working with and your own personality can affect that kind of relationship as well. Yeah, I can definitely empathize with that. I used to work for a British company and we certainly had our moments of small talk.

and beer, early beer sessions. So I was just wondering, you know, like getting an internship in London, was that difficult or was it like sourced by your school? You know, did you have to go out there and pitch yourself? Yeah, so the internship that I mentioned already, it was a collaboration with my university. So that was basically like I just selected the project I was interested in and I got paired to the company to work with them. But apart from that experience, I also actually did an internship

UX internship with my university itself. So UCL, I helped them to redesign one of their websites that is used by staff and students to report like incidences that happen in the university. So it could be things like harassment, bullying and so on. Yeah, so I think that one I had to source for myself. Basically, I saw an ad that came out and I applied for it and I think that

that my internship was a little bit more competitive to get because it only had like three slots but quite a big pool of participants that were trying to apply for it not just from my master's course but also from other degrees within the university so that was like something that I had to kind of put myself out there to

try and get it. So that was an interesting process as well. As well as applying for jobs in the future, etc. I think being able to refine your portfolio, being able to refine your resume, being able to perform well in the interviews, I think that was required to get some of the internship experience that I managed to get.

Well, thank you for sharing. I'm not sure if you had the opportunity to try applying for jobs and roles in the UK before you came back to Singapore. Yeah, so I didn't actually do that because I think like due to my own personal reasons and wanting to be back at home with my family and friends that I kind of already decided that I was going to come back to Singapore to apply after my master's.

Yeah, so tell me a little bit more about that process. You know, you just graduated, fresh graduate, right? Quite a number of people here in attendance are also quite fresh in terms of building their portfolio. So how did you go about the process of applying for a role in UX design in Singapore? Was it challenging? I heard it's very, very competitive these days. And it's pretty recent, right? So tell me a little bit more about it. Yeah, it was quite...

because I had the luxury and the privilege of being able to apply full-time. So after my master's degree, I travelled back to Singapore and as I was getting adjusted there, I had some time to really work full-time on the job application process. So I think I was really lucky in that aspect because I know many people have to do it part-time and I know it's a very gruelling process that is quite difficult.

But yeah, so for my own process, I took about two to three months to secure some job offers. So I think in the end, I managed to get three competing offers, which in the end I chose from DSTA. So it involved like a long interview process. I think I applied like for maybe 50 or more different jobs.

and I think about seven companies I went through multiple rounds of interviews with before landing the three offers. So yeah, it was quite a long process.

Yeah. That sounds like quite a competitive sort of like ratio. We're talking about, you know, seven companies interviewing you, but you applied 49 to 49 companies or something. Yeah. Or 50 companies, you said. So, you know, what would you do differently knowing what you know right now? Do you have done anything differently in the interview process or the job application process to become a UX designer now? Yeah.

Yeah, that's a very interesting question. I think the process can be split into different stages. So maybe starting with the applying stage, I think maybe one thing I did was I spent a lot of time trying to refine my

portfolio and my resume before starting out. And I think as much as that part of the process is important, I think you don't have to overdo it. You don't have to spend too much time on it. And it helps to get started in the application process and tweak it iteratively, almost following the UX process of not spending too much time, like making sure everything is perfect before you apply. I think that's one thing that I might have done differently.

Maybe another thing is that to be a bit more selective with my applications because I think it's quite easy to see all the job ads out there and like apply for every single thing but I think, nearing the end of my application, I realised that

it might be helpful to kind of collate a list of those that you think you're more interested in as well as you think you have higher likelihood of getting in and focusing your applications more on those rather than kind of what they call like the spray and pray approach where you just put in your application for as many as you can and hope like someone gets back to you. I think it's a mix of

doing that approach while also doing more like networking sessions which I did and turned out to be really helpful like I will reach out to people on

LinkedIn to ask them for a chat and I think during this chat I really wasn't asking them for a job or anything it was really with the genuine interest to learn about the UX field and about what their role there is like and what they value in the UX designer for instance and then I think based on that sometimes they would be nice enough to recommend you

or refer you for a role at a company and also reach out to your friends. I think like, especially those working in this field, I think that was helpful for me as well in getting links to some of the hiring managers in different companies. Yeah. So what I'm hearing, because you just joined the STA in February, so you probably did your job application around December, November period. So what I'm hearing is that

don't focus too much on getting your portfolio perfect, just get something out there. And then the next thing is actually to not underestimate the power of social networks, including your own network and talking to people.

So that's really interesting that you mentioned that. Something that we also encourage our students to also spend time doing, talking to people in the industry, even if it's just their seniors who already graduated and are UX designers. I was just wondering in terms of the job application process, like in Singapore, right? Sometimes it's quite tedious, sometimes it's quite intense. Sometimes they ask you to do all these design exercises.

Do you have any tips or do you have any like strategies to help better go through this process of like working with multiple companies who are trying to interview and evaluate you? Yeah, definitely. I think

Different companies have different approach. So from my experience some of them you kind of do a portfolio presentation others there could be a whiteboarding challenge and others that could be a take-home design challenge. So I think my advice would be to be as prepared as possible. So for the portfolio presentation what I did was really

go through like how it's being presented like how I presented the portfolio how I was telling the story how I emphasized my how the process led to the outcomes I think that's something that I really kept in mind not just like

talk about your project but really like tell a story with the project. I think that was helpful. Regarding the whiteboarding challenges, I think whiteboarding challenges can be quite stressful. So what helped me was to kind of prepare in my head before the whiteboarding challenge of like certain points that I would try to cover if I got stuck. And also in the whiteboarding challenge, I think it's helpful to really think

broadly before focusing on one specific solution. I think to consider different alternatives before focusing on one solution that I think is one of the mistakes I made in one of my rideboarding sessions. That I focused too quickly on one solution and failed to consider the context or the different aspects of it.

Yeah, and then I think for take-home design challenges, to me that is the least stressful because you have your own time to think and work through it. But I think also don't stress too much about it and as much as you can, try to tell a story with the presentation. I think, yeah, that's my advice.

I'm hearing storytelling being really important over here. So I'm sure that's something you do as well when you were studying in London and you had to present your work regularly to people. I was also wondering, when we talk about whiteboard challenges, when we talk about take-home exercises, and just for the benefit of our listeners,

the whiteboard challenges are on the spot exercises problems that are assigned to you and that you have to solve right on the spot don't know what the question would be it's on that day itself you're supposed to solve it sometimes you have assistance from a colleague over there or sometimes you don't might have to solve it yourself so that's that's the pressure and time sensitivity of a whiteboard challenge and take home exercises are usually two to three days are given to you to kind of like solve a problem and work through the

problem in the entire UX design process. So if you're working through this and I'm not sure if you actually encountered a situation where you had multiple design take-home exercises to work on. Luckily I didn't have multiple design exercises at once but I think there was a little bit of overlap between one whiteboarding exercise and my design challenge. So my design challenge

lasted a few days and then my whiteboarding exercise was in between all those days so I think for the whiteboarding challenge I took out a day to really just like think about like some possible questions they might ask and then immediately after that went back to the design challenge so yeah that was an interesting and slightly stressful week

But yeah, I think like I said I had the privilege of doing it full time which really helped a lot. Like if you have to juggle a part-time job while doing this application process, it might not be as easy. I think doing it remotely can also be a challenge because most of my application process was remote and especially the whiteboard challenges. I think it was quite difficult doing everything remotely because

Like we did it on Miro or Myro, whichever you call it. And I think having to take out a post-it note and put it where you want and type it, it takes a much longer time than if you're actually physically putting it on a whiteboard. So I think that doing it, this process remotely was a bit of a challenge as well.

I definitely agree on doing your interviews remotely being a challenge. I guess this is kind of the norm right now, right? You're expected as a UX designer to know how to do your job physically, but also remotely as well. So yeah, like, do you have any advice or tips on going through this interview process remotely? Yeah, I mean, I think there are pros and cons to remote interviews or remote interviewing processes.

So I mean the pros is that I think as an introvert myself, I feel like it's a lot less stimulating doing it in front of a screen than going to the office because I think there's a lot of unexpected things that can happen if you're actually travelling there. So I think that's one of the perks as well as being able to prepare in advance and even like put some notes on the site while you're talking to the interviewer. I think that is something that does help the process.

But I think you lose a little bit of the body language and being able to sense whether the people you're working with or being interviewed by are kind of agreeing with your points or not. So I think that is a tough part of it. And like I said, if you have to do some sort of challenge on the spot, having to do it remotely, like juggle with your tools while you have a video on and your computer is lagging all the time, I think that is one of the struggles.

Yeah, so I think I don't have specific tips on doing it remotely. Just in general, prepare as much as you can. I think that will

would be my main advice and doing it with body you might be able to like have like some notes like available while you're doing an interview i certainly hear that and i think that's actually really good advice to kind of put notes beside your monitor and just to talk about the talking points you want to talk about just in case you you forget

Yeah.

So good to hear that. I've got a question from one of your juniors who's going to UCL this fall and she's from Japan. Renako mentioned that she's hoping to land a job in UX research in the US because of the limited positions of UX research roles in Japan.

So she was wondering if there were any students from your program who managed to land jobs internationally, right? I guess including London, including in the US. Yeah. Did any of your classmates end up going there as a foreigner? Yeah, definitely. So like UCL has quite an international student body. So there were lots of people from different cultures that ended up at the master's program. So yeah,

people from Japan as well. There are also people from around Europe, people from the States. So a lot of people went to do the programme there. I think quite a few of them managed to land a job in London. So most of the people that apply to UCL want to try and get a job in London because I think being able to be in the country already really helps in terms of the interviewing process with recruiters or with hiring managers and

showing that you have stayed there for a while and have the ability to stay there

for a few months or up to a year after you finish your master's that really helps you ease into the job and look for jobs in the meantime. So there are definitely a lot of people from international bodies that went to London and managed to stay there after the master's degree. A lot of people also managed to get jobs elsewhere but from my knowledge most of them

get it back in their home country. So I think something that you might have to think about is the visa side of it, whether the company you're applying for can sponsor your visa and whether they need the interview to be conducted in person

because I think all these are the factors that determine how easy it is to apply to an international company. Yep, thank you so much and I'm sure she appreciates the answer and she said it's very helpful. I have another question from one of my students and Gregory asked for those who don't have the opportunity to go overseas, what can someone who studied in Singapore as a UXer do to be like more globally competent or reach like a global standard?

Yeah, I think that's a very interesting question and I think I mentioned that it's very valuable to work with people from different countries. Besides being there physically, I think LinkedIn is probably a very helpful tool or any social networking tool. I think nowadays it can be quite easy to reach out to people regardless of where they are and having that conversation with them and trying to make connections, I think that is one route that could be very helpful.

Another thing is perhaps attending virtual talks or

conferences, etc. that have an international audience and I think through those processes it might be possible to be able to network with other UX practitioners that come from all the different countries and I think being able to share your perspectives maybe share like what's the difference between your work and theirs and share your learnings as well I think that can be really helpful. So it sounds like the general advice is to talk to other practitioners especially practitioners that are not from Singapore and also

being able to do some work that may not come from Singapore as well, if possible. So that's helpful. Do you think like, is there any literature or is there books or anything like that or events that you would recommend kind of like get people more up to speed in terms of a global UX standard? I think

not at the top of my head but for me I tend to try and like watch talks or if I see online webinars that are held in different countries I think a lot of them tend to be from the states or the UK but also like more diverse events in that sense I would try to

attend them if I can because I think if you're looking for getting the UX practice from a global audience it helps to attend talks or webinars given by people from other countries that specialize and work there. I think that really would help.

in terms of that. But I think regardless of that, just like read widely. There are a lot of books on UX that are written by many different authors and they tend to give quite broad perspective. And most of them are written like outside of Singapore. So I think by just reading widely and listening to other people talk about UX, I think that would give you as much of a diverse understanding of the field as possible. Although like a lot of people tend to emphasize the global audience and how UX is done in different

countries, like I said, within different organisations as well, UX can be done very differently. So it just pays to be curious to understand how UX is done differently at different places and it doesn't have to be like Singapore versus another country kind of mindset, I think. That makes a lot of sense.

Someone's asking about the book called The Culture Map by Aaron Mayer. I'm not sure if you've read that one or have any thoughts on that. No, sorry, haven't heard about that. I'm curious, what did your university assign you as essential reading? Yeah, so I think essential readings, not so much more like traditional books, but it tends to be more like textbook reading.

So I think one of our readings was this textbook called Interaction Design that was written by one of our professors in collaboration with other professors. And it's just a very thick textbook that is quite comprehensive on HCI principles. But apart from that, we do a lot of readings on scientific papers. And I think that's quite interesting because these scientific papers really like, they're either a review paper of several studies or a specific study that they went through to prove

to show evidence for a certain theory. So I think things like one is like Fitts' Law. I think that one is quite commonly known in the UX world. So basically the gist of it is that it's a law that describes how targets that are bigger and closer to you, you can move your cursor and click it more quickly.

I think that's the most layman explanation of Fitt's law and I think they expand on the different variations on that, criticize like is it really valuable because it's not just a 2D dimension but they do it in a one dimension but actually when you move your cursor it's like in two dimensions and how do you calculate the distance based on that and the width versus the height and so on. So I think they really go quite in depth into

or these principles of HCI. Another one that I found quite interesting is called post-completion errors. So they found that a lot of people tend to make errors more frequently in situations where they've already completed their tasks. So the most famous example is like an ATM machine. There's a reason why ATM machines nowadays are designed such that you have to take your card out first before you take your money. Because in the past when people take their money,

they tend to forget their card and leave because they have already completed their task of drawing the money and they make this what we call post-completion error where they already completed their task and they forget to complete the final step.

I think an equivalent of this is like when you photocopy something and people tend to leave the original in the photocopying machine because they've really got their photocopy but they forgot to take the original back. So I think this is like an example of what we learned in HCI as well and which I thought was quite interesting. Are these papers peer-reviewed already or they're just like... Yeah. Yeah, so I love the fact that you're recommending peer-reviewed papers that are written by maybe master degree students like yourself

or even PhD students who are researching in the field of HCI. Yeah, I mean, I think these papers tend to be written by professors that have been in this field for a long time. So quite, yeah, I mean, obviously that these PhD students as well as master's students do their own research projects as well. But yeah. Awesome. And I know that Carnegie Mellon University in the U.S.,

one of the most renowned HCI programs. They publish a lot of papers as well. So it's really interesting that you mentioned that. And I think this should be something I should be asking more of my students to do. So thank you for sharing that. And we have a question which is kind of related. Raylene from the audience asks, do you feel that behavioral science is applicable to UX work, knowing that you majored in psychology? So I guess you have some perspectives about behavioral science.

Yeah, I think it definitely helps. Coming from psychology and a behaviour science background, I think a lot of the principles we learn in psychology is also very relevant to UX. Could be like cognitive psychology principles, like how people perceive things. So I think one very well-known thing is the gestalt laws of perception.

perception and I think that is also very related to psychology things like color pops up a lot more easily to our attention compared to things like shapes or and like motion is also something that really captures our attention really well I think like this is all related to the behavior science part of it I think also yeah understanding humans a bit more is basically I think it's very variable in

user-centered design obviously like human-centered design and apart from the kind of dairy part

what we learn in psychology, I think the skills that we practice in psychology or behaviour science is very important too because in behaviour science there's a lot of experimental design and data analysis and I think that is very relevant to the user research that we do in UX design on how to design fair experiment, the non-biased experiment and also how to interpret

the qualitative and quantitative data that we get out of it. I think that is very relevant from the field of behavioural science as well. Thanks for sharing that. And I'm just curious, you know, like how many, it could be a ballpark figure, but like how many papers have you read while you're preparing for the role to be like a UX designer? I just want to like get a sense, you know, like including stuff that you have to read when you were in school.

I mean, I have read a lot of papers because I think in a master's degree or even an undergraduate degree, each work you submit, you always cite examples of, or you cite the evidence of what has been proven. So for a typical submission, I would cite probably like 40 different papers. So that means like

For each module that I've done, so I've done, just for my masters, besides my undergrad experience, it would have been six modules, so I've read at least like 200-ish papers, I think.

So reading papers is also a skill in itself. I don't think I've read from the top to the end of every single paper. There's an abstract that you can read and if something that is very interesting and you really want to understand the methodology of how they found this specific evidence, you can read more of the method and the results.

But sometimes it's just helpful to just read the abstract to get the gist of it and go into the sections that you're interested in. So you don't have to read like the whole paper for every single scientific paper. Yeah, that's awesome. But the fact that you remember some of them, I think that really helps to differentiate you a little bit in the pool of candidates out there, right? Because instead of you quoting a book, which most people do, you're quoting a paper right now.

And you're saying, hey, based on this practice I read from the University of this and that, that's this thing, right? And they've done this research study. I was wondering if that actually made an impression on any interviewers that you talked to while you were going through the interview process. Yeah, I think so. So,

I think that the master's degree was really helpful in giving me this deep foundation. And obviously I might not be able to name the authors and the idea of a paper off the top of my brain, but I think having these broad concepts that keep coming up as

I'm practicing UX, that it helps. Like when I'm designing something, I would remember something I've learned before and that can help to inform the design of what I'm doing. So during the interviewing process, I think like, especially some of my whiteboarding challenges or design, take-home design challenges, I would justify some of my design decisions based on these scientific papers that I think was quite helpful in terms of

showing a deeper understanding of the goal that I'm not just this because in a design challenge you don't have much time to get substantial user research so a lot of my justifications have to come from common design principles so I think like having this background and knowledge should be helped yeah this is really great I mean the fact that you said you went through seven interviews but you got three job offers that means like it's almost like a 40 percent

success rate, right? So that means you probably knocked the socks off of your interviewers and they were quite impressed. Almost half of them decided to give you a job offer. This is really helpful and I think I was just wondering, there are people who are now going through the process that you went through about four to six months ago, right? And I was wondering if you have any advice, any tips for them

Especially, it can be a very discouraging process facing rejection. So I was just wondering if you have any tips and advice for the people who are listening here. Yeah, definitely. I think one advice that I would give is to be confident in your own unique strengths and background. I think like imposter syndrome is very strong. Whether you're an applicant or even when you start working, I think...

you always feel that, you always see people with strengths all around you and they come from backgrounds which you can barely understand. But I think it's helpful to remember that your own background is unique as well and you have a lot of skill sets that

A lot of other people do not have. And I think my advice would be to remember that and stay confident as well as try and leverage your own skills throughout your job seeking process as well as in the future when you land your role as a UX designer.

and apart from that I think always just like try to learn something new every day I think this learning mindset is really helpful and pick up any opportunities you can I think what helped me to land my UX role also like came a lot from my experience in my internships and I think to take an initiative to find those opportunities to do the internships and to accept offers that come your way I think making the most of what you

all the opportunities around you and always be trying to learn and upskill yourself i think that's very valuable yeah it sounds like practice is important but also staying curious and the fact that you're always learning and you're always growing in that process and thank you for for being so humble about it and sharing you know like that that you have imposter syndrome i'm sure many people also struggle with that and

I think that's something people tend to feel when they are transitioning into a new industry, especially when you're surrounded by people who seem more experienced or seem more capable or more talented than they are. And I think we all feel it at some level. And mentioned about being confident. Just as a final question, how did you find what you're good at? How do you know what you're strong at and mentioning what you're strong at and what you're good at?

Yeah, I think this is a difficult question to answer. I think it comes with a lot of introspection and reflection. So I think I try to practice that quite a lot even throughout my life and even after I got a job in the field. I think every few weeks or every month or even every day I try to reflect and think about like, was there something new I learned?

did anything go well and what didn't go well how can i improve i think like for me always having this mindset of understanding yourself and reflecting on yourself like you can tell like what works for you and what doesn't what you're good at and what you can improve and having the initiative and the drive to work on those things as a part of yourself i think that really helps you so even if you're not

the best UX designer or person now, you know you're always improving and getting better. And I think having that growth mindset is the most crucial in becoming both a better practitioner as well as a better person. So going back to the main topic at hand this evening, which is the value of internships and the value of a degree.

Would you recommend people to invest in a degree like a HCI master degree with the time and the money that's involved in it? Yeah, I think it depends on each person's individual circumstances. I mentioned before that I think I'm quite privileged in the sense that I had the financial support as well as the time to be able to pursue this master's. And I think if you have those conditions, I would definitely recommend it. I think...

It is firstly very interesting, I think that I really enjoyed

learning about HCI and also having the experience of studying overseas and experiencing a new culture that's really very valuable. I think there's also a lot of perks in it. It gives you a very strong foundation in the UX practice and it also kind of gives you a little bit of credibility when you're applying. So I think especially if you come from a non-UX background, I think it really helps in that sense. So it really depends on your own circumstances.

I think maybe one of the flaws of the degree, not really flaws but I think something that people don't really know about is that you don't really learn a lot of the practical skills there. You don't really learn about how to use a design tool like Figma or WXD for example.

they focus a lot more on the theoretical aspect of it so I think if you want to become like a good UX practitioner it still requires a lot of drive and a lot of initiative on your own part it doesn't just come with the degree but with all that being said I think it's definitely an experience that I don't regret and I would recommend it for people that have the right circumstances and the right support needed to pursue it but if not I think there are also many other ways to get into the UX field and

I think everyone has their own path and will be able to get there in their own way. I definitely agree with that.

And so you talk about practitioner and practicing experience. So I guess internships kind of make up for that. So how would you recommend people spend time doing internships, even sometimes if the internships pay very low or they are kind of like unpaid? Yeah. Would you recommend that they get relevant experience being a UX designer in such internships?

Yeah, I mean, I think this one is a little bit more straightforward. I would definitely recommend it. Like I said, if you're under the circumstance that, like me, you're not yet having to support a family, for example, and you can afford not to be paid very much while doing an internship, I think it definitely, definitely really helps in the transition because being able to show that you have practical experience in doing UX is very different from someone who

only has the knowledge and went through a boot camp or went through like degree even like if you never practice it like i think you don't really learn as much so i really really emphasize that take up as much opportunity as you can i think even if the internship doesn't pay very well i see it more like an investment in my own future like this can get you to a full-time job in the future that

can pay a lot better sometimes. So I think definitely recommend pursuing internships if you can and taking up any opportunity you get. I love that attitude and thank you for your contributions this evening to your fellow juniors and as well as people who are maybe just like you, right? And who are about to transition into the field of UX design. You shared some really wonderful insights into the process on how to prepare for it,

as well as how to differentiate yourselves and steer away from imposter syndrome this evening. So thank you, Jingxiu Cheng, once again, UX Architect at DSTA, Defence Science Technology Agency in Singapore.

So with that, we've come to the end of our session and I will see you next month. And if you'd like to check out some of our past episodes, we do have our recordings on YouTube, Curious Core, as well as on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. So if you'd love to hear more of my voice, you're very welcome to check them out. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please let me know what you think. Get in touch with me over email at mail at curiouscore.com.

I would love to hear from you. Do also check out our previous interviews and other free resources at CuriousCore.com. And until next time, I'll see you on the next episode. Take care and keep leaning into change.