Episode 6: Design Culture Shocks with Jay Demetillo, UX/UI Design Lead at Grab
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Hi everyone, I'm Dalen, founder and design educator at Curious Core.

Welcome to our Working in UX Design podcast series where we interview a UX design leader in the industry on their experience in this emerging field. We've had UX professionals from Grab, AirAsia, Google and more join us previously and we're bringing you more exciting interviews this year. Stay tuned for this week's interview with our special guest who is working in UX design.

So welcome to Curious Core's monthly Working in UX Design session. I'm Dalen, I'm the founder of Curious Core and a design educator. And I'm really glad to be hosting a friend of mine, Jay, today. And he is the design lead at Grab. And he actually designed some of the most beloved apps that you actually hear about, including and not limited to Pinterest,

Twitter, Yahoo, and all the famous apps that you might have heard about. And the list is long. And now he has Grab to add to that list. So Jay has actually been in the industry for more than ten years. He was previously a

graphic designer and is also a man of many talents including someone who shoots concert photography pre-COVID for some of the biggest names in the industry. So we're here to talk about his perspective and view of East and West design especially right now

at this point in time where we are working remotely and at the same time, we're also seeing the rise of Southeast Asia and the rise of Asia design as well. So I think it's quite a timely topic to talk about the culture shocks that come

with East versus West design. And at the same time, I also have him speak a little bit about what we don't see behind the scenes, as well as how do we shift our design culture in general. Okay, so I'm really glad to have Jay with us tonight. Thank you so much for joining us, Jay, and putting you on the spotlight. Oh, great. Amazing.

Thanks, Dalen. So my name is Jay, originally from Brooklyn, New York. I actually graduated as a brand designer back in 2009, I believe. So pretty much there was no such thing as UX. There was no such thing as product design, responsive design. It's just very interesting just to see that, you know, there's now boot camps, there's YouTube universities, Google diplomas for UX students.

and never in my wildest dreams that I would see that actually happen at all because I was actually in San Francisco

In 2010, 2011, that's when the second iPad or first iPad came out and the industry had actually adopted that term responsive design. And no one was throwing around UX, but everyone knew that responsive was going to morph into UX, right, Daylon? So it's just very interesting to see the whole community of like San Francisco, Silicon Valley, like learn UX together. So that in itself was like a culture shock per se, right? Because

Design hadn't reached the point of, oh, what is this new thing that is coming out? Because everyone had just been so used to brand design in general. And then the fact that this web component, this web design component turned into something a little bit more, especially like coding, adopting these all new OS systems and designing for that. And now we're in this realm of...

You know, designing for mobile, but now slowly turning into like VR, AR, audio, whatever. So I think that's fascinating. Like the tech culture shock of design is very fascinating. But coming from Silicon Valley to here was also shocking as well, because, you know, not everything is the same in terms of processes or applications.

in terms of tech literacy, right? Because tech literacy is very different in the States, in the West, and then even in China. I was in China for almost six, five months. And the literacy in China, especially in the tier one, tier two cities, were much higher than, let's say, coming to Asia, right? So seeing that, seeing all those different perspectives, and now living in Southeast Asia has been definitely...

shocking in all aspects, I guess, perspective wise. And then background scene, you know, I can talk about that. But yeah, that's why I wanted to start off first, Dalen. It was definitely shocking when I first came here. Thank you for sharing your perspective, Jay. And I think one of the key things I hear a lot when we were promoting this specific talk is that many people were very interested to come by to hear a little bit more about the

design process where Western companies in Silicon Valley versus companies like in Asia and the differences between it. Is there anything you can comment on that working in both cultures for the last several years? Yeah, no, that's a great question. I think, you know, I've talked about it. If you've seen me speak, there is this

typical process of we need to do research first, we need to understand metrics, and we need to do a workshop, we need to do a Google sprint to really start features or products or whatnot, right? To get a strategy down. And then you iterate on the design process based off research, you iterate on

off the metrics that you have now gotten or surveys and then you you know iterate on design and you go through this critique process and you ship the design with designs blessing on top of products blessing right

And then you get findings, right? That's very, very typical, right? I think most people know that process very well. I don't want to generalize, right? Because I think there are some startups that do what China does very well. And Jason Free is like one of those people, the Basecamp dude. So pretty much in China, it's much more or less, you just ship it. You don't really iterate. You just ship a feature and

And then that's when you get the metrics. That's when you actually learn. And then you iterate based off what's shipped, which is interesting, right? Because I think that does work for certain companies. I mean, if you've looked at like Meituan, Elema, they're both food startups, right? Didi was very similar as well. And it's fascinating to obviously see that all these companies that scale so quickly in China versus the companies that scale...

West, especially right now, I think it's just fascinating to see what's been happening in the tech scene in China, especially because everything is rapidly shipped and they just grow and they grow so quickly. And there's a term called China speed. The fact that the speed's so quick and they can scale so quick is just a credit to the fact of that process in general. They...

They will scale and they will outmaneuver Western companies like Uber. You saw what happened to Uber in China and you saw what happened to companies that may have tried to launch in China and they failed, right? I think part of that is also not a lot of designers talk about this and not a lot of designers think about it, right? You do have to actually work with the government. You need to partner with the government to understand the regulations and the rules that go into designing for each country. I think it's...

It's easy to design for the Western countries in terms of the rules and regulations because it's pretty straightforward. Yes, there are different states, but, you know, U.S. government is completely different from the Chinese government. And when we talk about Southeast Asia, everyone just assumes that it's a monolith. It's not, right? As you know, Southeast Asia is a collection of different countries, different governments, different daily habits and cultures. So you need to actually understand not just...

the governments that run the country, but also the culture that is very strong within the country. So example, Indonesia has like a massive Muslim population and you need to cater to those different daily habits that they have, whether it's like Ramadan. And let's say if you have a food app, having like halal as possibly the first option and not being able to serve alcohol, right? So these are a few things that you need to consider when you build your product and when you think about your design processes.

Thanks for kind of giving an overview and especially sort of touching on your experiences with Grab as well, where I know you helped Grab with Grab Food and its localization in Indonesia. So I just wanted to bring back on sort of like what you mentioned on Asia, right? Asia is really this accumulation of different countries and different cultures. Let's just talk about the US and China, right? Since that was...

something really interesting and people are paying a lot of attention to it right now. What do you think is the biggest difference? You talked about China's speed, you talked about this culture where China is just sort of like really moving a lot faster and has its own ecosystem inside. What do you notice in terms of the difference in terms of their process in designing versus like say the companies you used to work for in Silicon Valley?

Yeah, I think this is a hard one because, you know, I don't try to get political, but there is some like political background anytime you talk about China and America. Right. And to be honest, I think it's just a cultural difference in terms of the Western side is very individualistic. Right.

And then there is something collectivist about China and Southeast Asia as well, where we think about the community. So example, right? This is just a very simple example. When there's like a contact tracing app that is launched in Asia, especially in possibly like Singapore or maybe China,

people are more willing to like say yes i'm down to do this because it protects everybody from my grandparents to the community and this is fine like notify me in terms of like if i'm near someone that has covet or let me know and put me in quarantine because i potentially covet i'm not saying everyone's like that in asia but there's something nice about that right if you think about it

But obviously, if you read the news and you've seen what's happened to like the Western countries, right, they just don't care. And, you know, their contact tracing apps didn't work. They didn't pick up Steam. And the fact that there is this ignorance of actually watching out for each other, the fact there are now laws saying that, oh, no, it's fine. You can not wear a mask. And if you're vaccinated and just go out.

which is ridiculous to me, especially if you're seeing what's happening to India right now. Yeah, so that's just a good example of the differences of cultures and beliefs of how you're raised. So when you think of how is this related to the processes? Well, think about it like this. A lot of the apps that are from the Western side are very individual. They don't think about how can this app serve you in different ways.

The fact that WeChat could serve you on the payment side, post pictures, share posts, it can download like mini apps, right? It can do so many things that Facebook wish they had thought of it first. And there's something about that. There's something nice about that. And the fact that when I lived in China for a bit, it was awesome using it. And the fact that I could use it for everything and not think about downloading another app

was awesome. I mean, and if you think about it as well, like a lot of folks in Asia take their memory seriously, right? Their mobile data seriously. They don't want to download multiple apps. And then America is so, that Western individualism, the fact that you have to download single apps to do all these separate things is so annoying. And

To me, that's the biggest difference. That's just like the base process, right? The fact that there are these single apps that exist just to do certain things versus the fact that a super app that does everything and it only costs X amount of memory on your phone is awesome. And then now let's talk about the processes, right? To build that. The fact that you just ship something to see impact versus, oh, I'll just measure the impact first and then iterate, right?

slowly versus the speed of China where you just ship something, you get the impact and then you just ship something again and get the impact because you're trying to outscale the other competitors in China, right? You're trying to outscale everybody else. And

To me, I think you're starting to see other tech startups also start going in that direction. I mean, you're starting to see Facebook go in that direction. You're starting to see Uber go in that direction. There was a screenshot that was sent to us maybe a year or two ago where Uber was slowly adapting that super app realm where you could rent a bike, you could rent a scooter. You can do all these things. And it's now all on the home screen, which is fascinating, right? Versus what...

What was before, where it was like single apps to do everything. So I think we're slowly going down that pathway. I mean, Facebook's slowly starting to do it where they're trying to merge all the communications right into one messenger. So it's going to be fascinating going forward. Yeah. Thanks for that point of view. I never actually saw it before this way. And the fact that now that you mentioned it, it is true quite a lot of apps from Facebook

Silicon Valley are built with a very singular purpose on its own. And apps in Asia and in China are very much about the ecosystem and what can people do different things and it becomes a greater part of their lives.

And also you mentioned how in terms of attitudes, like the Chinese are a lot more willing to kind of just try and fail and iterate and just get things out there versus like wait and plan very strategically. So it's more like just kind of charging forward and upfront in this case. I wanted to know like where does Southeast Asia kind of sit and, you know, in terms of maybe in grab, right, as a culture, like are you guys more like China or are you guys more like...

the US or you're just kind of quite unique on your own in terms of the culture and the process? In terms of culture processes, I think it's, I mean, you know, there have been articles, right, that have been written that Singapore is like the next Silicon Valley. I don't really think about it like that in general. I think about it as if it's a cultural melting pot of East and West. And I think it's a good starting point for

for everyone to look at. And I know someone just pinged me, have you ever been to India? India has amazing startup system as well. And I've worked with a bunch of folks from India as well. So I think, yes, I still count them as Asia, right? South Asia, they're still counted and they move very quickly. It's very similar to actually China as well. And there are some really strong startups, but the process is...

In terms of processes there in China, Singapore does get blurred a little bit, but let's go back to Singapore first. For Singapore, it's definitely a cultural melting pot, for sure. I would like to think the rest of Southeast Asia would pick up. Obviously, the startup system in Indonesia is...

is it's blowing up. It's still growing, but what's going to be very fascinating is to see what happens to Vietnam. And that's why I got Ho Chi Minh or Saigon in the background, because I have so much hope for Vietnam in general going forward, because I am talking about Southeast Asia and I am from South, like,

You know, that's where I'm at. No offense to other Asia countries, but I have a lot of pride. Obviously, I'm also Filipino, too. So I got a lot of pride for Southeast Asia in general because it is up and coming. A lot of investments are coming to Southeast Asia. And if you've seen my talks, there's a lot of data points that point to Southeast Asia rising right now. It's Asia's time to shine.

And they call it the Asia decade because of all the investments and all the up-and-coming second and third-tier cities that may shift in those first-tier cities that will drive economic growth. It is a very fascinating time to be out here. But what's going to probably slow that down is

is capable governments. And I think that is the issue I brought up earlier, right? It links to the success of each country. Obviously, you see that with Myanmar. And most people know I run a podcast on Myanmar. And the fact that, you know, the ecosystem was blowing up before

the junta took over and now that has been halted. Obviously, it's not great for any business in Myanmar. But the fact that that stunted all the growth, that stunted all the investments, that could happen to any other country. It could happen to Philippines. Philippines has its own issues. And that's the problem. I think if you don't have capable governments, and most people will try to ignore the governments, but if you want to be like Uber...

I would recommend not ignoring the governments. You can only get so far without the government in certain countries, and that is the reality. So you have to remember that. You can't just launch something and assume something is going to be fine, right? You have to really think deeply about where you're launching in general. You can't just launch it in China, right, and just assume that everyone's going to adapt to it along with the country's government. It doesn't work like that.

Thanks, Chi. And I think I just want to make a note and let you know that more than 50 people tuning in right now. As I said, they mostly came for you. So, yeah, I wanted to ask you briefly, like, why are you so bullish about Vietnam and Southeast Asia? Just maybe give some of our foreign participants over here some perspective. They have maybe dialing in from Tokyo and some of the other European countries. Like, why are you so bullish about Vietnam?

especially in Southeast Asia in general.

Okay, so as I mentioned before, right, the Indonesia has the fourth largest population in the world. And again, I'm not trying to discount India. India is also, it's an amazing ecosystem, but I'm just talking about Southeast Asia right now because I think India is definitely up there. India has amazing like Paytm, Flipkart, there's amazing startups ecosystem there. But Southeast Asia, I think is very promising as well. As I mentioned before, these second, third tier cities,

are up and coming, along with the fact that the laws to actually now start your own startup are easing up, especially in the Philippines right now. Philippines has not the greatest laws right now to start up your startup, but they're coming around. Obviously, Vietnam, again, Vietnam has an amazing startup ecosystem. There's Tiki. If people don't know who Tiki is, they call it the Amazon of Vietnam.

which is very fascinating. Momo, which is their digital payments app. Bee, which is like very similar to Grab. They have a bunch of amazing startups in Vietnam and I'm actually looking forward to that. They have Now slash Foodie, which is the super app competitor to us in general, which is

owned by SEA. So, I mean, again, all these amazing tech startups in Vietnam are doing well. So it's going to be very fascinating in the next maybe five, 10 years what's going to happen to Vietnam. And if you know, Apple moved a bunch of their factories to Vietnam as well. So that's also going to help

drive up the manufacturing in Vietnam too. So I have so much high hopes for Vietnam in general and I hope they do well. But like I said, the only thing that will stunt that growth is the government. And that is the reality of Southeast Asia in general.

Yeah, that's a really fair point. And just to bring up some statistics as well, I think Southeast Asia in general, when we talk about countries like Philippines and Indonesia, they have one of the world's youngest population that's below the age of 30. They are also very technology savvy and they are high early adopters of new technology and devices, which also feeds into this entire digital ecosystem.

And I was just wondering, you know, like, do you have anything to comment on the work ethics and work culture in maybe Singapore or maybe in Southeast Asia? We know China, they work like really, really hard, right? But these days, people tell me it's 9.97 now. They work seven days a week, 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. Yeah, so, and they don't go home. So, yeah, like, do you have anything to comment on the work ethics in this region? Yeah, um...

Okay, and someone's asking something that's definitely related to it. Like, how difficult was it to shift from, like, Silicon Valley to here? I think it's definitely related. The processes and the people and the industry here is still nascent, right? It's up and coming. It's not as evolved as, let's say, maybe like India, China, or the States. And to be honest, right, like all the talent here,

currently sits in those other countries. There's not a lot of talent in Southeast Asia right now, which is unfortunate because I think there are a lot of great ideas. There are some great startups, but the talent is not here yet. I think

Most people struggle to find project managers that are great. They struggle to find designers that are also like educated in UX design. So it is very difficult to really, let's say, build a very strong team and foundation for

to scale. And I think that is the problem that you are trying to solve. I know you're trying to solve. I think a lot of people are trying to solve in general because you can't just keep hiring people like me from the States or people from like India or China. I mean, it's great for like maybe an R&D center, but

But if you want to grow the region, you need your own people in the region. And obviously, you see it with these amazing startup ecosystems, whether it's in China, India, and the States, right? And to be honest, I think the one thing that drove, which is interesting, right? There are some statistics around this. You know, four years ago, when there was this guy, orange man in the White House, it was just very interesting to see all the talent driven out of the States, right?

and come back to the countries out here in China, India, Southeast Asia. And it was just very fascinating to see that talent overflow come back and actually see these ecosystems also benefit from that. So the fact that also happened along with Southeast Asia needing its own talent is going to be beneficial going forward.

Yeah, I'm aware that in China they call it the sea turtle, "Hai Kuei" and they literally, it's like the sea turtle returning back home to China and trying to set up their own startups or trying to contribute to the ecosystem. We got some really great questions over here and people are asking about your experience growing up as a Filipino Asian American in the US versus like how was it like relocating to China or Singapore?

Yeah, no, great question. I think it's funny because, you know, with all the Asian hate crimes that happen now, I tell everybody that this has been happening ever since I was born. So the fact that there's all this media attention to me, it's almost as if

this has always been happening and not to be you've lived in Brooklyn right Brooklyn was rough yeah not not people not a lot of people know like back in the 1980s when I was born back then Brooklyn was you would actually see people carrying guns there were people getting shot outside of my apartment this is like lower income neighborhoods you just like you're just trying to survive in general yes it is messed up I think the

The thing about back then and now, Brooklyn is super gentrified now, right? And it's super wealthy. There's a lot of rich people there. But when I grew up there, right, the hate crimes were there. They were always there. In high school, when I was going through high school, the hate crimes were always there against Asians. So even New York City, like a state like New York City, it happened. So coming back to Asia, I felt...

actually more embraced, which is interesting. Even when I went to China, it was amazing for me because I felt more actually surrounded by what I knew. And, you know, obviously, you know, being Filipino, right? There was something nice about being embraced as like, oh, he's Asian. And I know there's some racial issues out here that happen. I'm very aware of the North Asia, South Asia thing. So very aware of that. But from my personal experiences, it has been

awesome to be out here. And it's rare because a lot of people, you know, a lot of people from the East, they actually go to the West and they get westernized. But when they actually come from the West and they've never met anyone that comes from the West and then got easternized. And that's what's happened to me, actually.

which is very interesting. I really think about the community and the collectivists in me is very strong. So for sure, I think that has been very fascinating. And I know TMKB has been asking me, because he asked me personal messages, what's a good resource to understand cultures? Culture Map by Aaron Meyer is amazing. So check that book out. And I think one thing I wanted to share there is how cultures collide. And I'll talk about that later, how we communicate to each culture

which is also very interesting because my communication style is very different, that adjustment period, because everyone talks about radical candor, right? Radical candor, that book, and just being straightforward and direct.

It doesn't work when you come out of here. It doesn't work. People will look down upon you as an individualistic. You can't just push your voice across people. You need to actually come together with a team. And I think a lot of people struggle with that in general. I struggled with it for the first two years, actually coming here, where the fact that I actually had to get some help and assistance from people. So it was a struggle. And I think a lot of people tend to forget about that. You can't

be this privileged person that brings their culture from another country to here. And just not to get political, but it's true. And there was this case in Bali where there were two Americans that were like, come to Bali and set up shop and just come here. And it's so cheap to live here. But you're doing it during a pandemic, first off. You're doing it in another country and you're in Indonesia and you're not respecting the government and you're just being a privileged American.

Just by saying like, come here during a pandemic, break the law and just live your life.

Yeah, there are other things towards that too, but you can't just assume that your culture is fine in a different country. You need to actually respect the culture that you're going to. There have been many times when I backpacked by myself and when I was living in Vietnam where, you know, there are people that are not from that country, from Western countries that would disrespect the waiter, throw beer into Ha Long Bay, scream at waitresses or waiters for not having certain things on the menu in English. And I would be so pissed.

And the fact that this assumption that you can just bring your culture and assume that everyone will be fine with it, it's not true. And one thing I tell people is speaking English doesn't mean intelligence, right? And I think most people, like, they may not speak perfect English, and that's okay. I think they're just as intelligent as the other person. You just can't communicate with them, right? So that's something you need to really take into account as well.

Yeah, thank you for pointing that out. And we do have a question about English, but let me just kind of do a wrap up on that. Earlier, you mentioned there were a few factors that are impeding our progress as Asia in terms of developing the digital ecosystem, right? You mentioned something about the government and good governance. You mentioned something about the talent base, but there's some hope because some of these talents are returning from overseas, right?

I think you also spoken briefly about the inclusivity over here and in terms of how we embrace ideas and foreigners. So let's talk about language. Someone in the chat asked earlier, you know, Singapore, Philippines and Malaysia has some of the highest English proficiency in Asia. So do you think that would be an advantage for economic development and

attracting Western investors? Well, it should. Sounds like an economics question. Well, no, it should, right? But the Philippines has, and this is attributed to the government, again, it comes back to the government. The fact that they created laws that prohibited certain startups from starting up and getting funding in their own country is ridiculous. As I mentioned, yes, it's going to improve going forward, but

that really made growth stagnant for a while. And that's why the Philippines has struggled to actually get some, you know, unicorns to come out of there. Yeah, you have some startups like Paymongo, which is their digital wallet that's there. And a few other startups are there now slowly growing. But it's the reality, like, yes, they have a lot of great English speaking talent. And

And yes, like a lot of them either work at the R&D center, some of them are like engineers, and it should help grow and give them more opportunities. Yes, that's true. But I don't see that...

leveling out right now in terms of the companies that have come out of there. Which is interesting, right? Because if you look at Indonesia, that is a full Indonesian-speaking country that is making waves in the tech scene, in the startup scene. So yeah, you need to think about that some of these English-speaking countries may not be as, let's say, successful as the other countries. But maybe in individual terms, individualistic terms, yes.

It is beneficial for sure to speak possibly two languages. And I'm not going to say you need to speak English to be successful. I think if you can speak and have a good ecosystem, especially in the tech realm, I think you'll be fine.

I think that's a really great perspective. I wanted to get your thoughts as well. I remember when I was in Founders Institute, I received a comment from Insider in Silicon Valley some years back. He said from his observation, it's really difficult for Asia to build digital products because we're so service oriented. And especially in Singapore, we're just so focused on professional services. So in terms of that product thinking that seems to be lacking in the entrepreneurs here in

startups over here, but this was several years ago. I wanted to know your observations. Yeah, I've had a bunch of clubhouse rooms hosted about this exact problem. I think, to be honest, it's not going to improve until we get more talent here. I think Silicon Valley has abundance of investors, abundance of entrepreneurs, and they're all well-connected to the right VC, to the right angel investors. And that is the benefit of Silicon Valley. Now, that's right now.

But if you look at the other investors that are coming out of, you know, whether it's Japan, China, India, I think they're growing. And the more, the better, the more, the merrier, especially for this region. And I know they're out there. It's just a matter of time. I think you're going to see the impact. But right now, unfortunately, it's just the lack of talent influx and a lack of representation of these companies in general.

Yeah, that's great, Jay. And I think it's a good segue to a question that was asked by Tao. And Tao's asking, hey, does tech companies like Grab have a wish list of skills that they want in their talent? Again, I can't speak for what in general they're looking for, because I think it's

It really depends. It really depends on the team, right? I think every person, every team is looking for certain traits and attributes that will make your team better. So example, like maybe the customer service team was looking for someone that's very strong at web and knowing the background operators on the ground versus maybe someone that is amazing at consumer facing products, right? It's going to be very different for whatever team you're applying for.

So I can't speak to that. But in terms of, this is something that you and I talk about a lot, Daylan, so feel free to also add in. I think one thing that I look for is taking self-initiative seriously.

Because in my interviews, I don't ask the basic questions. I ask you action-oriented questions. What are you going to do if this happens to you and I am out and I can't help you? What are you going to do? Or let's whiteboard exercise together and show me your design process and talk me through it. Now, I'm not trying to generalize again. Not every designer likes doing that out here, right?

Right. And I've noticed that in interviews, especially when so I'm just comparing both in the West. Right. They're more open. They're not working in silos. That's not saying every designer works in silos. Right. I think some designers still do that in the West. But from the interviews here and from what I've seen, not just at the company I'm at, but other companies. Right. People tend to get stuck in those silos. They get really precious with design. Right. And

It is something that we need to work on because not us, but also the schools and education system needs to work on as well, right? I think that's important to also push out because we need to evolve. We need to, you know, dedicate putting energies into that and making sure that the students that are up and coming take those things into account. And I think you're starting to see that. A lot of the young designers that I've interviewed in the past year have

have been amazing. I think their storytelling skills, their soft skills are on point. I think those are the skills that I look for. Storytelling and the soft skills are so important because they build relationships. If you can't build a relationship with the people you're working with, then you're not a fit, to be honest, because you need to understand that you're working with people from different cultures that may not match your culture or your background.

So I think it's important to actually have empathy, actually understand the people that you're working with. And a lot of the young designers get that. Now, the past two, three years when I was interviewing before this last, this year, right, was a struggle. And not a lot of people had the storytelling. And a lot of people tend to forget that, and this is the reality, that most designers, especially if you're a UX designer, you need to present a lot, right?

You're usually in Google Slides or Keynotes creating decks and storytelling, right? So the fact that if I interviewed you two, three years ago and you didn't have a deck or some story behind each edge case, which was true for a lot of designers I interviewed, I would probably say no.

And like, yes, a lot of the designers that I've noticed out here recently, right? Because back then the UX scene was still nascent. I think it's getting better, but it was mostly strong visual designers back then. But now you're starting to see more of the combined visual UX talent, which is awesome. Thanks to educators like you and other folks as well. And I think it's getting better, but the storytelling, soft skills, the

All of that matters. I think talent is one thing, but if you don't have the soft skills, storytelling, or even having that knowledge of business, that's the one thing that kills me. Like if you did like an assignment, if you did a feature for a company, right? And you didn't even ask about the business and how it impacts the business, then I have issues. So example, this is a very simple example, right? Let's say the button to check out

on a shopping app is currently, I don't know, blue. And it takes them three clips, three taps to check out within five minutes. But let's say we change that button, right, to green.

And now it takes them two taps to check out and takes them two minutes to check out. There is something parallel to the business, what it's doing for your business, right? The fact that it's now easy to check out, your revenue has now gone up. The time spent on your app is less because it's easier for them to actually get in and get out of the app. That's just basic metrics. That's basic storytelling skills, right? And if you don't have that in your presentation or you don't talk about that,

then why am I going to hire you? You need to actually understand the value of design. This is the problem, Daylen.

A lot of designers, they don't understand the true value of design when it comes to business. When you talk about these certain things that you did this with the button and the fact that there's less time to check out, you're bringing value to the business. That's what design does. And that's that metaphorical seat at the table that people complain about, that we don't have a seat at the table. It's there. You just haven't sat down and actually communicated it to them. So that's something I look for.

Yeah, we're getting a lot of amens and we're getting a lot of agreements on how it's important for designers to justify why they should have a seat at the table. And definitely this is something that many designers can improve on.

And I just wanted to also be nascent about the participants. And many of them are based in their own countries. Maybe in terms of salaries, it's not as well paid as being in Silicon Valley or being in China or being in Singapore even. Do you have any tips, you know, in terms of sort of making sure that people are paid what they're worth or, you know, or even how do you kind of like

get to a higher level? That's a hard question. Because I mean, I told you, but I took a pay cut when I came here. And I knew what I was getting myself into, right? Yes, Silicon Valley does pay well. It pays probably the best out of all countries, to be honest. I would never go to Berlin. And people ask me, why would I never go to Berlin? Because they tax me like 30-40% as an American. On top of that, I have to pay German tax.

So, yeah, I know like California taxes a lot as well. That's very true. But the fact that you get compensated very well in the states. Yeah, like I get it. Just go to the states and get compensated. But for me, for compensation question that comes up, you can only do so much, to be honest. And that is the reality. Because if I go to an agency, because I've worked at an agency as well.

You really need to love what you do. I know that's not something people want to hear, right? Because I worked at an agency. I was not being paid what I was being paid at a startup. And I was doing similar work. I was being paid probably triple at a startup versus the design agency I was working at.

But I loved what I was doing. I loved that I was doing community-based work. I loved that I was doing all these things that impacted the community in San Francisco. But I wasn't being paid at all. I was struggling to live in San Francisco. And most people know, right, San Francisco is very expensive. It's one of the most expensive cities, probably next to Singapore and Zurich, right? It's up there. Yeah, free healthcare, that's a joke. Let's not talk about that.

Yeah, anyway, I think it really depends on what you want for yourself. Like if you want the money, if you want compensation, you want to live comfortably, go to those large companies and there's nothing wrong with that. I tell everyone that there's nothing wrong with...

going to a large company and working there. And people joke, like, let's say they go to Google, they call it their retirement job. I get that. Like, if you're married, have kids, and you just go to Google or Facebook, that's okay. Like, no one's going to hate on you because of that. If you're doing it for prestige, that's also fine. But it really depends on what you want. Can we just get a sense of how much a UX designer is paid in Silicon Valley? Let's talk about numbers. I know the taxes are high, but let's talk about numbers. Okay, so...

This is what like probably blows people's minds and I told this in China right? I was talking to the young designers in China actually when I was doing my talks in China. In USD for a junior designer that just gets out of school you can make 60k USD to at least 80k USD. That's just getting out of school now. It was never like that before.

So, you know, that's USD, folks. That's like senior design pay in Singapore, right? That really is like senior design pay. So that's why I tell people like a lead designer or a director level in USD, it's probably at least like 150K to probably like 400K plus. I mean, that's the reality. And that's USD. So unfortunately, I don't think...

any of these countries out here will ever pay like that. Even when like before I went to Grab, right, I did have a job offer from the startup in Vietnam. It was 25% from what I was making before. It didn't even like match. So I hope those numbers help because it really does depend on what you want for yourself in general. Do you want to live comfortably or do you just really want to like work on impactful stuff in general?

Yeah, I think numbers aside and you bring a very good point on impact and learning and all these things, these things are important for career growth as well. And I was just wondering, like for maybe someone who's young and aspiring and they're really trying to get to the next lot in life, right, and get a better lot to the next stage, you know, what what can they do to kind of like be successful?

globally like competing as a designer. You talked a little bit about being able to communicate business impact and demonstrate business impact in your work. Are there any things that people should kind of also think about when they want to be a competitive talent like globally, like work in Silicon Valley, for example? Yeah, I mean, it's the reality now that you need to have probably a social media presence now.

Right. I think that's what people look at, to be honest. They look at that, your portfolio and who you are as a person, because they're looking for a fit. Again, yes, you can have amazing talent, but if you don't have a personality to go with it, then why would we hire you? Some people are dropping off after I've been saying that. Anyway, I mean, that's the reality. So to better yourself in terms of skill and project. Right. Let's let's talk about that, because I think that's easier. Right.

Yeah, make your own projects. Take self-initiative. Create your own features or apps. Redesign something. It's okay at this stage to redesign a Spotify or Facebook. That's fine. Do that. Especially if you're an up-and-coming designer, do that. That's fine. But that's one project. Don't focus just on that. Recreate something as well. Driving your own project. Take self-initiative and drive your own project. Do your own metrics. Make your own research and build something that's awesome. Now, in terms of like...

that like let's talk about the soft skills so I tell this to you and all your students dealing like practice practice interviewing take interview that from a company that you may not want to work at you know or you're passionate about just take that interview that's fine if you don't care about it that's fine just take the interview practice you need to present and understand like how storytelling goes and this is what I tell everybody it's like comedy stand-up and that's what I told you right

You're going to bomb probably most of your interviews. It's just like a comedy stand-up. Everyone's not going to laugh at you. You're probably going to get booed out of the building. That's okay. You need to live with that failure and get better because if you want that dream job that you want, whether it's at Facebook or Google, how do you think you're going to get there? You need to improve not just your talent but how you present yourself. So go into those interviews. Tell your quote-unquote jokes.

And if you start picking up on how people laugh, and this is like the quote unquote laugh, this is how I can compare it to the comedy stand ups. Once you start telling your story, when people laugh, it's when they start asking you like questions, right? If they start asking you all these specific questions about specific things during your interview routine,

you figured out where you need to leverage on, right? Where you need to be more specific and talk about. And I did that. I kept taking all these interviews and started altering my process, my storytelling, and then how I worded things. Because I would get the same questions over and over again for a bit, then I'd alter it, and then the questions would change based off of like what I did, right? And you can see the reaction gets better and better each time after you start altering your story or your comedy stand-up sketch.

And that's how you become more of a person that I would want to hire because your storytelling skills, you know, talk about your process is so important, right?

The fact that that practice built up to that made everything easier, and I didn't have any fear. So most people are shy. They are scared of that interview process. They hate talking about their work. But if you really want to land that dream job that most people have, then you need to practice. There's only one way to get there. You need to fail and bomb. And some people are perfect. Not everyone's perfect. You need to just keep practicing and doing it.

Yeah, and it's amazing. I think thank you for sharing that. And I just want to do a small plug. Jay and I and a few others actually collaborated on doing a mock interview simulator because we know it's intimidating to actually go for real interviews.

And in real interviews, they sometimes don't give you feedback. So we actually created pre-recorded video interviews where you can actually practice with us, like asking you questions as if like in a real interview and that you get the chance to also tell your story and you have the option to also get feedback from us.

So I think that's great. And of course, a member also mentioned here that you host a lot of clubhouse rooms and you get people to kind of like chat and to speak up and to practice as well. So I think that's also a good thing. Do you want to share the story about Julie Tuo and...

Or was it Julie? I'm not sure that. Yeah, so the context, Julie used to be the vice president of product design at Facebook. And I think Jay, you wrote to her once, right? You want to tell people about that story? Yeah, so, okay, this is a really funny story. I have two stories. So, you know, most young designers or most people in general will never cold email customers.

people or message them on LinkedIn. They're just are intimidated, right? Mind you, this is like, I think, 2013, 2014. This is like Facebook at its prime. This is when Facebook had just blown up. And Julie was like the top of the world at that point. And she was writing Medium articles like every day. So she actually encouraged people to email her. I wrote her a long email with my portfolio of

Because at this point, I wanted to work at Facebook. Nowadays, I have other opinions. Aside from that, you know, back then, I really wanted to work there because they hired like amazing design talent at that point. They're amazing designers at Facebook at that point. I think it was before TNLax jumped on, but they're amazing designers there. So I wrote that email, sent my portfolio, and I didn't think she was going to respond. She responded to me in like 24 hours, Dalen.

with like a full on critique of my portfolio and a full on critique of my cover letter as well. I have the letter saved in my inbox. She never responded to my tweet, which is fine, but I still have that letter and I keep it because it's inspiration in general of what she told me how to improve on and what to do. So the fact that she got back to me was insane. The second story was, you know, Jake Knapp, the guy that wrote Design Sprint, right?

I emailed him when I was going through like a career lull on LinkedIn. And he responded to me with like a long message as well. And he helped me land my job actually. He helped me land a job as like one of these folks at Google Ventures. They have like an army of designers that they send out to startups. So he helped me land one of those gigs, which is awesome. So cold emails, right?

to people like that are amazing. Don't stop yourself from messaging people like that. I think if you ever want to send something into the universe, yeah, most people might not respond. But if you do it with good intention and good karma, it will usually come back to you. So I really believe in that. So that's awesome. Yeah. But I think it's also not a very Asian thing to do.

because we're just so shy. But it's great that you did that and that you got so much out of it. And it's such an amazing story of being proactive and making requests, right? Because you never know if you don't make that request. Oh, it's true. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take, right? Exactly. And it's fascinating because it's how we communicate, which is very interesting because if you go to...

let's say China, it's got this very interesting thing that I also had to do like negotiating behind the scenes. It's very moderate, semi-confrontational, tough talk, harmonized and losing without face.

And the negotiations happen behind the scene or at dinner, which is very real. Now let's talk about the communications in Singapore, which is very interesting. I didn't believe this when I first read this book and it's called When Cultures Collide. But it was very fascinating ever since I've been working in Singapore because I experienced this exact thing.

With Singaporean PMs and designers, right? So there is something about communicating in different cultures that I had to pick up

And if you're ever working internationally, that's why the culture map is very good. And then when cultures collide is also another way. And I'm not trying to generalize, not everyone's like this, but there is certain patterns that you start to see and how people communicate. So take down DoCount, especially if you want to work overseas in general. And I encourage people, if they want to, just pick up this book and understand different cultures and how they communicate, because it's so important. And that's why communication is so key.

And I think as a Singaporean kind of looking at those diagrams, that's something that they end with like down to earth agreement. And I can definitely say we're very pragmatic people over here. And that's, that's something we do do very well. And the fact that in China, there's so much backroom negotiations in America, there's just that loudness and that kind of like beating on the chest, kind of signifying your alpha and I'm alpha, like who has like a bigger position or power over the other. And again,

It's so interesting to kind of just see that. And I think a lot of people agree on it. Yeah. So kind of wrapping up over here, we've almost been talking about with you for an hour. And can you comment a little bit about what do we need to do right here? Right. Some of us are senior designers. Some of us are just starting out in our careers. What can we do to shift to a healthier design culture in general? Yeah.

out here in Asia? Exactly. That's right. This is a hard one. I think it really depends on the country, to be honest, because I think there are some thriving design communities out in Asia, whether it's in India, whether it's in Indonesia. I think the problem in Singapore right now, it feels like a vacuum.

unfortunately, and you know that, Stalen. You were the Creative Mornings guy in Singapore, and I don't think it's as open as it should be. I mean, I've been part of the Hong Kong design community as well when I was living there briefly, and it wasn't as strong. There wasn't a lot of talent back then either. I know there are great people there now, but again, it really depends on the people and the community, and you need to make sure that there are community events happening. I think

The reason why they're not as strong as, let's say, like Silicon Valley or maybe like the New York design scene, because that's like legendary as most people like, you know, here are seeing the movies, right? That art scene slash design scene in New York City is like memorable is because there are powerful people. Those well-known people go to those communities. The companies or agencies are at these events and that's what makes it magical. Now, that's not to say that

agencies don't come to these events right but here's an example so if i go to a university that i taught at cca in san francisco and there's a student show tesla is going to show up facebook's going to show up recruiters are going to show up and they may offer internships to these students right off the bat just after they see their work right and the fact that singapore or maybe some of these other countries hasn't hit that mark yet like i don't see like a

grab hanging out at like NTUC all the time, right? I don't see maybe like one of those large Indonesian universities hanging out with like Gojek at a university. I don't see that. Now, if tech actually put more effort into making that talent, growing that talent and having these now pools that they can drive from that they've actually participated in and help grow,

you'll start to see amazing growth in the tech system, right? Especially in the design community, because that's how communities are built, not just through people, but also having that other arm that they can reach out to and really send their people in and help infiltrate that community. And unfortunately, that's what I've seen. I tried to have events too, like the shift events. I mean, it was mightily successful, but like,

Again, it's continuous effort and you need to keep doing it because it really loses fuel if you don't keep trying. The other thing from just trying is you need powerful people behind it or powerful agencies or companies behind it as well. And that drives inspiration, right?

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. It's an ecosystem, right? As you mentioned at the start of the talk, like we're in Asia, we should think more about the collective. And as the collective, it's like, how do we help each other? How do we support each other? How do we help each other to kind of like grow and become better?

And I think one of the things that you do do, and someone was asking earlier about your podcast on the BMR market, and Jay does run a podcast called Traces. He does kind of go around talking to people in Southeast Asia and just trying to find out more about the design scene of Gouda and what they're doing. Hey, let me correct you. Sorry, go ahead. So pretty much, I actually look at the impact of technology on people's lives. So it

It's not just about design. It's literally just seeing how countries like Myanmar or maybe a country like Cambodia is impacted by technology. And, you know, if people know the history of Myanmar, the Internet had just opened up around 2010, 2011. They never had access to technology. They never had access to the Internet. So it's to see how technology impacted what they went through when they grew up.

and then what happened after the country opened up. Right now, obviously it's been hard to interview people, but now I have three episodes that are coming out. So there's four episodes right now. The first one started with a designer. That's why most people assume it's about design, but it's not. So it's about just...

a culture being impacted by technology and that's what the traces is tracing the impact of tech on culture and I try not to actually go to countries that are like well-known like Indonesia, Philippines that's on purpose I'm sorry there's a lot of content out there for those countries I try to represent countries that

don't have that those voices or stories like Myanmar, Cambodia, Kazakhstan, Nigeria, countries like that I'm more interested in because those countries are very hard finding success successful people or people just like seeing how culture is impacted by tech like

currently because yes it is new for like indonesia to have access technology i know that but when there's a country that under military rule or has gone through genocide like cambodia there's something new and fresh about that seeing how technology has impacted our lives so i think that's important to get that content and hear those stories

That's awesome. And actually, we spoke a little bit about this, but I wanted to ask you a question like, why are you so interested in culture other than the fact that it was written in the stars in your horoscope? That's Feng Shui, okay? That South, South, East, West stuff.

Yeah, so for cultures in general, for me, I think it's just a way of life that when I was backpacking through Southeast Asia, like the first backpacking trip I ever did, I was backpacking through Southeast Asia.

it really put perspective into understanding how people live, how people react, how attribute the value to money versus like family. And when I was living in Vietnam, right, that hit me so hard. The fact that I lived in a village near mountains and just chilling out and appreciated the fourth, fifth tier cities in these countries. And I started to understand like how people were happy in general, just to have like so little, but they had so much with family around them.

And that changes the perspective of a lot of things, right? Because I'm originally from New York City, worked in San Francisco. I could care less about

you know, living in those cities now. New York's great. Don't get me wrong. New York City is amazing. It has amazing food, amazing places to hang out at. Same with San Francisco. It's got the hippie vibe if you're into that. But there is something real about living or experiencing different cultures and having that reality set in that these folks are living off the land. They are

pretty much serving each other and building their family, they're building their legacy off the land in these underdeveloped or under-deserved communities. And there is something very important about respecting and also having that perspective. Because even before this, right, like I taught at Interact Project. If you don't know what Interact Project is, it helped undeserved community kids actually build their careers in design in the Bay Area. And these kids were from poor neighborhoods

in the Bay Area. They weren't from like rich families, they were from poor neighborhoods and we wanted to give them and uplift them an opportunity to make a living.

So the fact that I could see the happiness of just making off a living, making a living off of like the land and just being happy, there was something about respecting that culture and respecting the perspective and not trying to force my opinion on them. I think there's something beautiful about that. So in terms of culture, I think it's so important to just understand that not everyone is the same as you. And I think I would rather be different and have different perspectives, different personalities around me than just the same old, same old.

And that's wonderful. I think that is acceptance. And that's kind of like surrender in some ways. And it's really wonderful that you ended on that note. And with that, we will end the live interview session. Thank you all for attending. And thank you so much for being here. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did, please let me know what you think. Get in touch with me over email at mail at curiouscore.com. I would love to hear from you.

Do also check out our previous interviews and other free resources at curiouscore.com. And until next time, I'll see you on the next episode. Take care and keep leaning into change.