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From KQBD in San Francisco, I'm Nina Kim. Coming up on Forum, we look back on the life and career of director David Lynch, whose death was announced yesterday by his family at the age of 78. Celebrated for his singular vision and his dark and dreamlike works, including Mulholland Drive and Twin Peaks, Lynch was also full of light, offering uplifting weather reports for Angelenos during COVID lockdowns. I can't tell you how lucky I've been in my life.
How fortunate and lucky I've been. What impact has David Lynch and his work had on you? Tell us after this news. Welcome to Forum. I'm Mina Kim.
An outpouring of tributes from filmmakers, actors, and others in the entertainment and art worlds have followed the announcement yesterday of the death of visionary director David Lynch. His TV series Twin Peaks, and films including Eraserhead, Blue Velvet, and Mulholland Drive, inspired the adjective Lynchian for surreal and unnerving works, though drawn to capture the dark underbellies of Hollywood or Timberland towns.
Lynch was sunny in Outlook, and in his family's announcement of his death at 78, they wrote, There's a big hole in the world now that he's no longer with us, but as he would say, keep your eye on the donut and not on the hole. Joining me now to talk about his legacy, Alexandra Philippe, a filmmaker and director of the documentary Lynch Ah, streaming on the Criterion channel and on DVD Blu-ray. Alexandra, thanks so much for being with us.
It's my pleasure. Ian Nathan is also with us, film writer and author of David Lynch, A Retrospective. Ian, glad to have you too. Very pleased to be here. Thank you. Rebecca Alter is staff writer at Vulture, who covers comedy, movies, and pop culture at large. Welcome, Rebecca. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you for being here and rounding out our panel. Jackson Kim Murphy, associate news editor at Variety. Hi, Jackson.
So glad to be here. And if you can believe it, it's a Friday once again. I know. We made it to Friday, though, unfortunately, a very sad topic, though, at the same time, one that inspires us to keep looking to the future just based on the kinds of things that David Lynch said. Alexandra, I do want to hear from you, though, what your reaction to the news of David Lynch's death was. Characterize for me the depth of his contributions for you, what we've lost.
Oh, I mean, it's really hard to put that into words. You know, crushed, obviously, is the first word that sort of comes to mind. Completely took me by surprise, as obviously everybody yesterday. You know, it's a kind of, I mean, it's a profound loss. I mean, I think he was a father, spiritual father figure of sorts to many of us.
And I think, you know, beyond the filmmaking and beyond, you know, his extraordinary art, you know, the person that he was, you know, you did mention his optimism. There's just something about him that I think will always inspire us. So it's a huge loss, but he's left us a lot of wonderful, wonderful works that will stick around for a long time.
Yeah, Jackson. And, you know, you said Friday, once again, just like he would in his weather reports to L.A., you called Lynch's death another gut punch to L.A. locally. L.A., that's going through so much, huh? Yeah. I mean, I have no reporting on this, really, other than a statement that was shared yesterday.
But he had to evacuate from his house last week due to the L.A. fires. He has he had emphysema. So he likely was having trouble breathing due to the air quality around here. So, you know, as the city is not even fully in the rebuilding process, as it's still trying to put out these fires, it really is another gut punch for this community. He loved going to.
Bob's Big Boy, famously, sort of just a normal diner with an iconic mascot. But he went there for seven years, I believe, and kept getting the same meal there every year. And last night, a bunch of flowers and tributes started to pop up next to the Bob's Big Boy statue outside. But yeah, he was very much a local legend around here as much as he was a titan of cinema.
Yeah, the same chocolate milkshake I understand, Rebecca, for seven years. Some theories that maybe it boosted his creativity, among other things. The effect David Lynch's death has had on you, Rebecca. And also tell me about a work by Lynch that has had a profound effect on you.
Yeah, you know, I don't cry very often at celebrity deaths. Maybe the last one was Stephen Sondheim. And I was crying. I had to sort of quickly write up the news at work. And there were tears flowing down my face the whole time. But I think it's because tears are always like right at the surface with his characters. The way they cry in these movies is very...
openly and beautifully and so it felt right and there's not a work of his that I think doesn't um that hasn't impacted my life that I've seen anyway uh maybe Dune I don't know how much Dune impacted my life I don't think he loved Dune himself the way it turned out anyway
But I've been thinking a lot about Fire Walk With Me, which is one of my favorite movies ever, but one that I don't like to revisit very often because it's a very tough sit. And what is it about Fire Walk With Me that makes it your favorite? I think, and I've seen other women sharing similar thoughts about this over the past day, too.
And this is a movie that I don't know how appreciated it was at the time, but people have come around on it because it depicts, I think, like,
Another show could have used Laura Palmer as a symbol. And I think fans of Twin Peaks, you know, a big part of that fandom originally was the way we're fans of something like Lost or something now like Severance where we're solving the puzzle and we're having fun. And she's this symbol. And for him to take the character and make her a person and make her suffering like so powerful.
visceral but also presenting it in a way that doesn't feel leering. It's scary, but it's not... I think other directors could have done that in a way that's a lot more gross, I guess. Him giving her that humanity and that grace and showing her pain is like one of the, I think, most generous acts a filmmaker has ever done for a character.
Ian, your retrospective, David Lynch, your retrospective came out just a couple years ago, I think, or not that long ago. What about him stood out to you in looking at his work or, or a piece of work by him that really, really speaks to you?
I mean, he's an extraordinary person. To me, his death is a little bit like the death of David Bowie. He was one of the things I relied on being in the world, that great art and great humour and great humanity and something very bizarre could go on and the world would be all right. So it's a great loss in the sense of not only art, but I think for humanity, these kind of great people,
I mean, his career is, as everyone has been saying, is second to none. And truly, it's sort of a work of an individual who has an individual style. If I have to single one out for me personally, it's Blue Velvet. I film my return to probably once a year and it still shocks and surprises me, even though I know it so well. I mean, even now I can remember seeing that Dean Stockwell singing Roy Orbison.
I don't understand that scene and I don't want to understand that scene, but it's extraordinarily haunting and powerful.
And that to me is David Lynch. You know, I wrote a book about him. And when I set out to write the book, I thought I'm not going to attempt to explain his films. But still, I got caught in that maelstrom of trying to explain his films. And the joy is that he draws you in to try and understand them with the understanding you never will. And that torture is divine. And I think that's what makes his work so memorable. Yeah.
Yeah. Noelle on Discord agrees. Noelle writes, my favorite film by Lynch is Blue Velvet. When I saw it when it came out, it was so different and strange. It left a huge impression. Listeners, what is your favorite work by David Lynch? And what did Lynch's work mean to you or what impact has it had on you personally?
You can email forum at kqed.org. Find us on our social channels, Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, and others. We're at kqedforum. You can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.
And Arendi writes,
Last night, in all of my grief, I began to make art. It feels like the only appropriate response. Alexandra, I understand you have seen Mulholland Drive like more than 70 times or something like that. Tell us why that took such a hold on you. Well, you know, I think as is pretty much every David Lynch film that I've watched over time, the first time is always an interesting one. And I have this very distinct memory of
When it came out, I was in Denver and I went to see it with friends and I was already a big, you know, big, big Lynch fan at the time. And I have this very clear memory of walking out of the theater and saying, turning to my friends and saying, well, this time I think he's finally lost it. And, you know, and it's so interesting because then you go.
You go to the bar next door and you start talking about it. And we talked for, you know, a couple of hours. And the more we talked about it, the more I felt like, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, you know. And it's this sort of typical kind of slow burn of a Lynch film. You know, it just creeps up on you. And of course, I had to go back and watch it again the next day. And then it blew me away. It just completely blew me away. And since then, I mean, it's just like every great film.
Every great film and especially great film that taps into the subconscious the way that a Lynch film does, you can watch it over and over and over again. And because, you know, as Ian mentioned, there's no explanation, you know, but it taps into something that is very, very profound. And so there's no bottom. You can go deeper and deeper and deeper.
And in fact, deepen the mystery, right? The film, the films that he makes will present doors and windows through which you may choose to go. And if you do, then more doors and more windows will present themselves to you. And that's the beauty of it is that the deeper you go, the deeper the mystery becomes. And that's the joy, I think. And do you think there are some truths in it that Lynch held himself, Alexandra?
Some truths as in what he wanted to promise you mean? Yeah, well, you know, just the juxtaposition of light and dark, you know, dreams that are just so, you know, high and then can become so broken. Yeah.
Of course. I mean, but that's, you know, I think you can look at his entire filmography and, you know, I'm not going to get too deeply into the connections to Oz, but I mean, I think it's, it's fairly clear that that film had an extraordinary impact on him, you know, and it's that, I mean, his films are about the American dream and the American nightmare sort of looking at both sides of the coin. And, and I think there's,
You know, it really speaks to me. What's remarkable is the fact that as a surrealist, he was able to be so popular.
It's a rare thing. Yeah, the populist surrealist. We're talking with filmmaker Alexandra Philippe, film writer and author Ian Nathan, Vulture staff writer who covers pop culture at large, Rebecca Alter, and Jackson Kim Murphy, associate news editor at Variety, about David Lynch. We'll have more reflections from them and from you after the break. Listeners, I'm Mina Kim.
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You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking about the life and career of L.A. director David Lynch. His family announced his death on Thursday at the age of 78. We're talking about it with Ian Nathan, a film writer and author of David Lynch, A Retrospective.
Alexandra Philippe, a filmmaker and director of the documentary Lynch Oz, Jackson Kim Murphy, associate news editor at Variety, and Rebecca Alter, staff writer at Vulture. And of course, with you listeners, what's your favorite work by David Lynch? Or what does his work mean to you? What impact did his work have on you? How would you define a Lynchian?
Email your comments and questions to forum at kqed.org. Find us on our social channels at KQED Forum. Call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786. Perry on Discord writes, my favorite Lynch performance is how David Lynch stole Christmas on Family Guy. Never did get that plate of coffee. And David Lynch's Dune is definitely a lesson to us all. Rebecca, tell us where...
Where was Lynch from, you know, before he made his home in L.A.? And what were some of the influences that shaped him? I think he grew up a few different places, but born in Montana, has that Midwestern thing about him that we see come up again and again, and had a stint in college.
Philadelphia, which he seemed consistently disturbed and upset by, but which is also where he met so many of his future collaborators, you know, where he started his family and what so much of Eraserhead, I think, is kind of about. So by the time he got to California, I think he was able to love it the way that maybe only an outsider to it
Someone who idealized it through movies and things. And it seems about as far away in his movies from the semi-Philadelphia of Eraserhead as possible. Yeah, Ian, it does feel like Philadelphia did have a profound effect on him. He was a painter at first, right? Yes.
Yes, he studied art from the very beginning. He sketched as a child, small town upbringing. You won't be surprised to hear. Ended up, as Rebecca said, at Philadelphia School of Arts and lived in the worst part of town. Really rough. I mean, everything you see in a razor head is kind of is his kind of evocation of everything that went on at Philadelphia. Yet he met people like Jack Fisk there and.
He painted a lot. He painted whole rooms black. He painted extraordinary things. Never sort of stayed on the topics of the course. But he famously tells a story that he had a kind of vision. He called it a sense of a wind in which he wanted to make a breathing painting, a moving painting. And of course, that's what he did for the rest of his career. He can imagine this idea of using all his knowledge,
imagery from his paintings, all the kind of techniques he had as a painter. Yet he infused them with the ideas of filmmaking. And from Eraserhead onwards, you know, he sort of played with our whole concept of what a feature film could be. Yet in coming to California, he adored the light. He adored the history. He adored Hollywood.
So, you know, if you watch every one of his films, they're all inspired by Hollywood. Yet with this slightly out of town, bizarre, painterly kind of surreal view of the world. Yeah. Let me go to caller Shannon in Petaluma. Hi, Shannon. Join us.
Hi. Thanks. Yeah, I have a couple things about David Lynch. One is that I live in Petaluma now. I went to art school in San Francisco. And when Twin Peaks was on, and I was in the illustration department, and we were all watching the show, and one of our teachers gave us the assignment of doing...
trading card, painting trading cards of the different characters from Twin Peaks. And which was fun. I believe I did the log lady. And the other thing about David, and it was hard to sort of choose what was my favorite, but him being from Montana, I grew up in a small college town in Eastern Washington and
You know, there's this sort of small town, everything's, you know, sweet and the neighbors and all this, but there's this simmering things underneath that people kind of knew about, different families. And I think he captured really well. So, anyway. Yeah. It makes me look back fondly with those days of being, you know, a young art student in San Francisco. Yeah. So...
Alexander, you have also talked about the fact that he could create a sound world in really extraordinary ways as well. Yeah. You know, oh gosh. I mean, it's, you know, there, when you think of him as a, when I think of his works as a filmmaker, there, there, there's, they're so immersive and so,
precise and so unique. I mean, you know, you mentioned the wind. There's obviously a whole collection of winds in his works and especially, obviously, all the work that he did with Alan Splatt. The wind, you know, potentially could come from, again, The Wizard of Oz. But, you know, he was a musician. He was obviously a visual artist and
He paid attention to every aspect of filmmaking in a way that makes, you know, you mentioned this idea of what is Lynchian. And it's a really hard question, I think, to answer because to me, what Lynchian is, it's an experience and it's the experience of watching his films, which is...
completely singular. And, and, and also I think it's really important to, you know, if you think about, well, what is my favorite Lynch film? I'll say, well, probably Mulholland Drive or Lost Highway for me, it's a toss up, but, but it's really important, I think, to look at, at any film of his within the context of his entire body of work, because I think as in every, the case of every great artist like, like Lynch, you
His films speak to each other and and they become greater within the context of his entire filmography. And when you start, you know, paying attention to motifs, images, you know, then then they become greater than the single film. Yeah. What have you learned about his creative process, Alexandra?
Well, you know, there's multiple interviews with him that I think are really interesting. And, you know, he's often asked, of course, where his ideas come from and
There's this sort of tongue-in-cheek, but also very real, I think, response when he says, well, it comes from the room over there. You know, this idea that there's a place that feeds him fragments, images. You know, he talks about blue velvet, actually, is an interesting example. I'm paraphrasing, but I think the fragments that he got were obviously the blue velvet and then bright red lipstick.
And so he gets those images from, as he says, the room over there. And from there, he sort of follows, follows the images and starts building a world, building a story. And so there's this extraordinary confidence, I think, in his intuition, right?
in not trying to understand where those images come from, but following those images and trusting that they're going to take him someplace. I'm a huge believer in this idea that a film, in essence, before a film becomes a film, it wants to be something. And I think a filmmaker, especially a filmmaker like Lynch, is kind of an antennae.
And, you know, the job really of those filmmakers is to pay attention, pay attention to what that film wants to be and to sort of follow that. And I think there's nobody greater at it than David Lynch. Ian, you talked about how confounding it can be to try to write a book about his work because he famously never talked about the meaning of his films or his works. What do you think that's about, Ian? Yeah.
I think it's partly what Alexandra was talking about in the sense of because his creative process is almost a little bit unknown to him, that he was sort of channeling ideas and images and placing them together in a very sort of painterly way, very artistic way to see what would happen.
that to explain it would be to destroy it in a way. And he said, and I'm paraphrasing a quote of his, where he said, you struggle so hard to turn words into images in filmmaking, then immediately everybody wants to turn the filmmaking back into words. They want an explanation.
And I think for him, you would kill the films in a sense. You would murder them if he said, I will tell you what's going on then. I'll explain Mulholland Drive or I'll explain Lost Highway. Yet, having said all that, they are enormously alluring and tempting because you feel there may be an answer as long as you concentrate and you kind of figure it out and you think it through.
And I think that's an appropriate response because I think that's part of the magnetism of the films, the drawing them in, is that they're teasing you with a possibility of a solution. But the truth I think he wants you to get to is there is no solution. Or the solution is entirely your own and it could be different from anyone else's. We actually have a clip of him doing an interview before a live audience where he sort of asked something similar about, you know, not trying to say...
you know, what the meaning is of certain things and so on. Let's hear it. I like a story that's got some concrete, you know, structure, but also holds abstractions. Life is filled with abstractions. And the way we make heads or tails of it is through intuition. And so people get used to a film that pretty much explains itself 100%.
And they kind of turn off that beautiful thing of intuition when they're looking at a film that has some abstractions. Some people, on the other hand, love these abstractions and it gives them room to dream. An abstraction, to me, is a thing that cinema can say.
And it's so beautiful, for me anyway, to think about these pictures and sounds flowing along together in time in a sequence, making a thing that can only really be said in cinema. It's not words, it's not just music, it's a whole bunch of things coming together and making a thing that didn't exist before. And that's what I really love about it.
We're remembering Director David Lynch, and let me go to caller Mark in Sausalito. Hi, Mark, you're on. Hi, thank you. I had the pleasure of working with David Lynch, interacting with him just briefly. I worked in visual effects for many years, and I was the supervisor of the stillsuit shop for Dune.
And David would come to our shop fairly often for meetings about things. And it was just wonderful, kind of exciting to be around him because you could tell there was always something going on in his mind. But I'd like to share one story that's special to me. He was there for a production meeting at one point with our producer, Rafael De Laurentiis. And after we were done meeting,
We all wanted to go out to lunch. Rafaela and some of the other staff wanted to go to a nice restaurant near one of the studios. David kept saying, "No, I want to go to Bob's Big Boy in Toluca Lake." His favorite restaurant.
And everybody said, oh, David. But they kept calling around. It was mid-afternoon, and they could not get a reservation anywhere. So they said, okay, we'll go to Bob's Big Boy. And I had the pleasure of riding with David Lynch in his pickup truck to the restaurant.
And the conversation, it was just kind of casual, but all of a sudden, very Lynchian, out of nowhere, he said, I'm king of the lizards, you know. Oh.
I said, really? And he told me this story about being near a swimming pool. I think he was a lot younger and I don't know where the swimming pool was. As he was walking by, he happened to look down and he noticed there was a lizard at the bottom of the pool.
And so he dove in and put the lizard out, put him on the concrete, and blew into his nostrils and started pumping his arms to try to bring the lizard back to life again. And nothing happened. And he got up and started walking away. And then he told me he turned around, and all of a sudden the lizard just popped to life, jumped up and ran away. And he said, and he made me king of the lizards. Wow.
Oh my God, Mark, that's a great story. Thanks. Thank you for sharing that one. God, you know, Rebecca, talk about the way he interacted with others, especially with actors. You've noted that a lot of female actors in particular really, really respect him. Yeah. I think it's, you know, proof is in the tributes people have been posting. Naomi Watts posted a lovely tribute about,
Kyle McLaughlin posted a lovely tribute. And it does seem like the caller that every single person, whether they were developing a character in a movie with him as an actor or anyone down the line or anyone who interacted with him as sort of, um,
at least one story like that. There's a clip of Sherilyn Fenn talking about the way that he would direct her. If a tape was good, he'd be like, oh, that was Jim Dandy. And she rolls her eyes in the clip and goes like, and I'd be like, yeah, sure, David. And it's this very...
For how dark the work is, it seems like there was a sweetness in a lot of these after relationships. Yeah, I would think there would need to be a lot of trust there for the kinds of things and the kinds of stories that he was telling.
Scott writes, I showed my parents who were born in the 40s blue velvet when it came out on VHS in the late 80s, and they were horrified. They thought it was disgusting, had no understanding of what it was about or any desire to explore it. And it was right there. And then I realized this is truly a new generation of art. And he was defining it. Jackson, what do you account for Lynch's staying power? Because didn't you say you turned 18 like a decade after his last film?
Yeah, it's a funny situation because I came of age and started watching his films. I feel like basically once his legacy was starting to be spoken for, starting to calcify in a way, I turned 18 in 2015. His last feature, Inland Empire, was 2006, I believe. And the way I accessed him early on was sort of understanding intellectually that he
he was a very controversial filmmaker. He was a bad boy filmmaker, almost like blue velvet. Uh, the Venice film festival didn't want it. They called it pornographic, um, or Roger Ebert, America's most, you know, popular critic is someone who's,
tried to speak to the people uh basically hated all of his movies thought they were disgusting until mahalan drive where he really came around on him um it's so it's it's funny to just sort of arrive at it uh at the end of it almost to be like well they're all connected they're all spoken for now uh and they're all well they're not all spoken for but like
I wish I was there to see him evolve as an artist and see each one and to have that reaction that was voiced earlier of like, well, he's lost it this time.
Um, I only had that with Twin Peaks, the return, the, uh, the revival Showtime series that he did, uh, which was completely, uh, bizarre and unexpected. And there's like the first episode, it starts in New York city. You're like, what are we doing here? This is supposed to be in a small town in the Pacific Northwest. Um, and definitely that show was very exciting because just week after week, one hour, just go into his mind and you're,
trying to figure out what's going on in there. Um, it's, and you do have these moments where you're like, what are we doing here? We're watching a guy sweep up a floor. What are we doing here? Harry Dean Stanton's just playing guitar in a trailer lot park. Um, but, um,
That was, I mean, that to me was just the most exciting television I've ever watched. And the discussion of it, especially now in a streaming age with binges and stuff like that, where we aren't really talking about things week to week anymore. That was true event appointment viewing. Everyone needs to talk about this every week. Yeah.
Yeah. We're talking about the effect that David Lynch's work has had on my guests, Jackson Kim Murphy of Variety, Rebecca Alter of Vulture, Ian Nathan, a film writer and author, and Alexandra Philippe, a filmmaker. And as an effect on you listeners, David writes, amid all the talk about David Lynch's surrealism, a film that seems to be escaping notice is 1999's The Straight Story, a totally straightforward heartfelt tale of an elderly man driving a tractor for miles to visit his ailing brother. This surprisingly un-Lynchian movie is very simple and moving.
In a sense, it accesses only Lynch's light side, his optimistic Midwestern attitude, without any of the unnerving, foreboding feeling that characterizes most of his work. More after the break. I'm Mina Kim.
You're used to hearing my voice on The World, bringing you interviews from around the globe. And you hear me reporting environment and climate news. I'm Carolyn Beeler. And I'm Marco Werman. We're now with you hosting The World together. More global journalism with a fresh new sound. Listen to The World on your local public radio station and wherever you find your podcasts.
Welcome back to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking about the life and career of legendary director David Lynch, known for Velvet, Mulholland Drive, Twin Peaks, The Straight Story, a lot of films and works being mentioned today. He...
His family announced his death on Thursday. He was 78 years old. And we're talking about it all with Rebecca Alter and Ian Nathan and Alexandra Philippe and Jackson Kim Murphy. And with you, our listeners, your favorite work by David Lynch. What did his work mean to you? How would you define Lynchian? The email address is forum at kqed.org. Find us on our social channels, Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, Xthreads. Call us at 866-733-6786.
866-733-6786. And Nora writes,
There, we've mentioned it a couple of times, but I feel like I've just got to play a little bit from his weather report, which a lot of people in Los Angeles said, you know, help them get through those early, really frightening and bewildering days of the pandemic. And he decided he would do this on KCRW. So let's listen. I'm wearing dark glasses today because I'm seeing the future and it's looking very bright.
Let me go next to caller James in San Francisco. Hi, James, you're on. Hi, can you hear me okay? I can. Go ahead.
So I was in the theater, film and television department at UCLA, maybe about less than 10 years after Eraserhead came out. And that was a film that everybody that I knew would watch and just completely freak out over and say like, wow, what an incredible film and how much we loved it. And then
He went on to make Blue Velvet, which to me was his best film ever and just was very influential. And then I went on to make film and my first film, Truth Love Extinction, which is a 54 minute film. The first thing that people said to me was like, wow, we know you love Stanley Kubrick and you like Ken Russell, but this is a Lynchian film. The surrealism, the darkness, the kind of like things that are happening underneath that look kind of like normal and kind of like,
and beautiful on the outside, but then when you get down to it, it's like there's something crawling beneath, you know, the surface. And it just was... Just his work had so much influence on me. I was hardly ever watching television at that point, with maybe the exception of The Simpsons. And then Twin Peaks came on, and it was like every day, every time it was on, I had to make sure that nothing else was going on because I had to see what was going on with Twin Peaks. So I loved...
the humor in his work, even though it was dark. I love the...
the way that they use characters like Laura Dern and Isabella Rossellini. And I just thought he was so brilliant. And it's a really huge loss to the film community because who else is like David Lynch? Yeah. James, thanks so much for the call. Who else is like David Lynch? I mean, Rebecca, how would you define Lynchian? And do you feel like he really created a new film language, essentially? Yeah.
You stuck me with the hard question. I can ask the other panelists for their opinions too. That's the point. It's like the issue that trips us up when trying to talk about that or trying to, Ian, as you said, like trying to write about, you know, describing or explaining the movies. It's like talking to someone about a dream. It's really hard to make it tether to anything. And it's because of the contradictions. I think it's shorthand for...
surrealism and I think like that populist surrealist label that you mentioned earlier I think is a really good way this is a term that's like a populist term that helps us understand a type of surrealism but obviously for him it's the sound design the meme of ominous whooshing it is the unexpected humor and
It's this very kind of like earnest line delivery that people, some people interpret as ironic. Many more of us, I think, like accept as deeply earnest, but it feels weird compared to other things. I don't know about new film language, if only because of how much, you know, Alexandre's you explore, you know, how much he owes to...
golden age Hollywood that he loves, like the Frank Capra stuff that he loves, melodrama, things like this. But I do think, you know, in this day and age for him to have been creating things,
And especially in the 2000s and 2010s to be embracing digital filmmaking before most people were touching it or most serious people were touching it and treating it seriously. I do think maybe definitely inspired a lot of people. I can't think of anything else that looked like Inland Empire at all. Right, right.
Alexandra, yeah, I mean, do you want to say a few words about the influence of The Wizard of Oz and how you define Lynchian or if there's even a point? Well, I think, you know, to sort of piggyback on what Rebecca just mentioned, I mean, I think this idea that obviously because a lot of his films in some ways are
are about Hollywood, are about the dark sort of underbelly of, you know, these... I mean, you have this recurring character of, you know, the aspiring actress, usually, who, you know, who doesn't make it back, you know, who goes over the rainbow but doesn't get to come back home, you know, the dark side of The Wizard of Oz, if you will. But it's really the way that he...
He plays with genre and with tone and with mood. And I'm always fascinated by the way that so many different genres in a way can cohabitate within
I mean, Mulholland Drive is a really great example because you have, you know, obviously moments of really high sort of slapstick comedy. You have, you know, winks to the Western. You have horror. You have musical. And somehow it works. You know, the thing that we don't talk a lot about, I think, when we look at Lynch is
is and I want to just underline the word horror because I think more than any other filmmaker and including horror filmmakers he has this extraordinary capacity to give you a single moment of horror or a scene you know the winky scene comes to mind in Mulholland Drive
And the sense of dread that you get from that scene, I can't think of another film that just gets under my skin in that same way. And yet when you think about it, you're in a diner in the middle of the day. It's as safe, brightly lit as you can possibly get.
But the sense of dread, the feeling of dread that you get out of that scene is, you know, is through the roof. So, you know, he manages to really master so many different genres, tones, moods. And that sort of unique concoction is probably what Lynchian is. And then you pair that with
You know, the way that I would say, you know, he manages to tap more subconsciously than consciously into the images, the themes, the motifs of The Wizard of Oz.
And I'm not even going to put Wild at Heart into this. I mean, Wild at Heart is an interesting film, but it very consciously references The Wizard of Oz. I think most of his other works, I think there are clearly times, moments when he's not necessarily thinking actively about it, but it sort of creeps in. It comes back. And I think those are really spectacular scenes. I'm not going to spoil that. You're going to have to watch my film, though. Let me go to caller Ali in San Jose. Hi, Ali. You're on.
Hi, thank you so much for taking my call. The first movie I saw of him was Mulholland Drive, and that really captivated me. And no movie ever since has been able to capture my fascination, basically.
And then I learned about Twin Peaks and I binge watched it. And again, I was feeling the same. And then Fire Walk with me. And there was so much emotion in that that is just beyond description. And finally, the second installment of Twin Peaks on 2017. And I want to say something that's probably a spoiler for whomever hasn't watched it.
I was disappointed because I could not find a conclusion to the story. I'm a very analytical person. Nevertheless, in spite of that, I enjoyed every episode and some of the episodes in spite of the fact that I had no clue what was going on. I was fascinated and captivated. I was able to watch them a few times. And finally, I want to say that I hope we will get
more original mad geniuses like him, and it's a loss to the movie industry. Ali, thank you. It's an interesting point that I'd love to throw to you, Ian, just in terms of, you know, Ali calls him a mad genius. I'd asked that earlier question about a new film language. If not a new film language, I'm wondering what you think in terms of just the impact he has had on, you know, the art and entertainment world and whether you do see,
you know, somebody that you would describe as sort of singular-like, singular in their own way coming up? I'd be hard-pressed to wonder if there was going to be another David Lynch. I don't think we could ever get the man again. I think, firstly, his career is extraordinary because he managed to stay true to himself. And in doing that, and everything we've been talking about, in dream imagery, in surreal...
often incomprehensible films. And he made those sort of within the system as much as he could. Of course, he was sort of a semi-studio filmmaker and a semi-independent filmmaker. He found the means to get his films made
within LA, a lot of them. And to be so contrary to what we think of as Hollywood filmmaking is extraordinary and to sustain that. And the word I always come back to with David Lynch isn't filmmaker, it's artist. Yeah. He's one of the great American artists.
And I think that's where we maybe should elevate him a bit in our sort of thinking, our terminology, sort of beyond the bounds of filmmaking and think of him as a Basquiat. Think of him in terms of just culturally how extraordinary he was. But his films are very welcoming, as dark as they are. They do invite you in. They are beautifully shot. They are full of movie stars.
They have these tenets, as the clip you played of him, he mentioned, from things like film noir and musical and old Hollywood. They create a sense of extraordinary mystery and they're very sexy films. And they have these wonderful, often detective-like characters, Agent Cooper being the most famous, Carl MacLachlan's character in Twin Peaks, which almost represent the audience going into these worlds and losing themselves to them.
that they are truly unforgettable. They repeat on you as dreams do. But I think a lot of that has spread down to new generations. The Ariastas of this world have taken on the Lynchian sense of dread, the Safdie brothers, that sort of sense of tension. But I don't think I can come up with a filmmaker like him because I don't think of him as a filmmaker. I think he is an artist. Let me remind listeners, you are listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim.
Kevin on Discord writes, while a student at UC Berkeley, I found out about a 1978 screening of Eraserhead at the Pacific Film Archive, followed by Q&A with David Lynch and the sound designer. It was the first time I saw Eraserhead, and I don't remember asking any questions since I was so overwhelmed.
Jackson, the last time you were on Forum, we talked about Steven Spielberg's film, The Fablemans, where actually David Lynch plays the character of a titan director named John Ford. And it was one of David Lynch's last roles. What did you make of that? Uh,
I was tremendously moving and funny and terrific. And I remember I was at the Toronto international film festival where that film premiered. I wasn't at the premiere. I think it was at the second or third screening, but I remember the air sort of leaving the room. Everyone gasping when he shows up, uh, cause you're already like, we're about to meet John Ford. We're looking at all these posters and then it's David Lynch playing John Ford. Um,
To me, that moment's incredible. That moment is Steven Spielberg, Lynch's peer. They both came up around the same time in Hollywood, sort of giving him his flowers, putting him on the same pedestal as John Ford and allowing us to think of these two filmmakers as similar titans of the American cinema, similar people who speak to the American experience. It's just...
I can't think of a better... I mean, stunt casting sounds so derogatory, but I really can't think of a better ending to a film even. It's an incredible moment. Yeah. We have a clip of that scene where the main character meets John Ford, played by David Lynch. They tell me you want to be a picture maker. Yes, sir, I do. Why? This business, it'll rip you apart. What?
Well, Mr. Ford, I... So what do you know about art, kid? I love your movies so much. No. Art. See that painting over there? Yeah. I mean, yes. Yes, I do see it. Walk over to it. Well, what's in it? Describe it. Oh, okay. So there are two guys, and they're on the horseback, and they're looking for something, so maybe there's... No. No. Where's the horizon? The horizon? The horizon?
Where is it? Uh, it's at the bottom. That's right. Walk over to this painting. Well? Right, okay, so there are five cowboys, you know, they could be Indian. No, no, no, no, no! Where's the goddamn horizon? Um, it's there. Where? At the top of the painting. All right, get over here. Now remember this. When the horizon's at the bottom, it's interesting. When the horizon's at the top, it's interesting. When the horizon's in the middle, it's boring as s***.
Now, good luck to you and get the out of my office. - Thank you. - My pleasure.
David Lynch playing John Ford in The Fablemans. Listener Julia writes, life is a delicate balance between what we think we know and what is mysterious. He elucidated the sting of this balance with all of his and our senses. Let me see if I can squeeze in a caller from Los Angeles. Charlie, join us. Quickly. Hey, how are you? Great. Go right ahead.
Hey, just, you know, it's beautiful to see kind of here in Los Angeles. Everybody's really pouring all their love and all their hearts into David Lynch. There's a little shrine at the Bob's Big Boy, which is a diner he frequented, I think, almost every day. He'd get like a coffee and a milkshake. So there's already a beautiful little shrine there with coffee and cigarettes and donuts and quinoa, I think. He had a...
had a video where he made quinoa. So it's really, really incredible to see just how universally loved he was, how much people resonated with what he said, what he stood for, what his work, you know, how that inspired other people. It's just really, really beautiful to see that. Oh, cool.
Well, thank you, Charlie, for giving us that scene from Los Angeles. I really appreciate it. And I really appreciate you, our listeners, for sharing your reflections and what David Lynch has meant to you and especially to our guests. Jackson Kim Murphy of Variety, thank you so much.
Thank you. Rebecca Alter, staff writer at Vulture. Really appreciate having you on too. Thanks. Ian Nathan, check out David Lynch, a retrospective. Thank you, Ian. Thank you. And Alexandra Philippe, his film, his documentary is Lynch Oz. He's a filmmaker as well. Thanks for coming on, Alexandra. Thank you so much.
And listeners, my thanks to Caroline Smith for producing today's segment and also to Mark Nieto, Francesca Fenzi, our digital community producer, Jennifer Ng, our engagement producer, Susie Britton, our lead producer. Our engineers are Danny Bringer, Brendan Willard, Brian Douglas. Our intern is Brian Vo. Katie Springer is the operations manager of KQED Podcast. Our vice president of news is Ethan Tobe and Lindsay. I'm Mina Kim.
Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. We could all use a little help navigating the news these days. The Consider This podcast wants to give you a hand. Six days a week, we'll help you make sense of the day's biggest news story and what it means for you in less than 15 minutes. Listen now to the Consider This podcast from NPR.