Respite from Strong Winds Expected in Los Angeles Wildfires; All Hail the Humble and Glorious Bean
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and follow for new episodes every Wednesday. From KQED. From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Alexis Madrigal. As some of the smoke clears in Los Angeles, the toll is becoming more clear. Officials say more than 9,000 structures have burned, hundreds of thousands of people were evacuated, and there's more wind on the way next week. We're going to get you updated.

And then we'll turn to food. Beans are the future, more or less. Protein-rich and with a much better climate profile than meat. We're going to hear the case for the bean as a larger part of the American diet. Plus, we'll swap some cooking tips and exciting varieties. That's all coming up next after this news.

Welcome to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Fire conditions are temporarily easing in Los Angeles, which is giving first responders and regular people a chance to get into the damaged neighborhoods to see what's happened. The Palisades and Eaton fires have created devastation not seen since the Camp Fire leveled the town of Paradise.

So far, officials have tallied more than 9000 structures lost. And if the early forecasts of the overall damage turn out to be correct, this could rank in the top three most costly natural disasters ever in American history. Not Hurricane Katrina or Harvey, but not far off either.

Before we get into the rest of the show, we've got a couple of people on the ground in LA to give us a snapshot of what's happening and what's to come. Rachel Miro, Senior Editor here at KQED. Welcome, Rachel. Thank you for having me. And we've also got California Report co-host Saul Gonzalez with us. Welcome. Thank you. Give us an update on the fire. What are people waking up to? It seemed like the number of structures burned that

the tally went up pretty quickly between a thousand to five thousand to nine thousand just walk us through the morning yeah it just keeps going up and up and up again you you just said 9 000 structures burned and when we say structures that's kind of a cold clinical term i think we're talking mostly homes from what i've seen and commercial properties uh small commercial properties

And I converted, I get lost in the acreage numbers, frankly. So if you don't mind, I combined the acres burned in each of the big fires, converted them to square miles. I come up with a figure, I'm doing math, that's sometimes hazardous, but I checked it twice. I come up with a figure of 53 square miles burned.

burn total. To put that into a Bay Area's perspective, the city of San Francisco is 47, 48 square miles, so slightly larger than the city of San Francisco. Although do keep in mind that a lot of the acres that have been burned are its wilderness area, its hillsides, its mountainsides, not always residential areas or commercial areas. And of course, LA County is so big, much bigger than I think even those of us who are familiar with LA are aware of.

Rachel, talk to us about getting onto the ground in the last day and what you've seen, where you've gone.

Yeah, you know, I headed over to the other corner. I got L.A. County so, so big, as Saul was just saying. So I went to Alcidena, which is sort of tucked just north of Pasadena. And, you know, underneath the San Gabriel Mountains, a lot of locals like to say, you know, that it feels foresty, even though it's really, suburb doesn't describe it. It

It's a city. It's a city. Altadena is a city. And I went, I took an art gallery owner past the fire lines to see the ruins of really not just his art gallery, but the neighborhood smoking, you know, open, open flaring of gas lines, you know, power lines down on the streets, everything still smoldering, just destroyed. And, you know, it's,

He was taking a very philosophical attitude, this gentleman, because he

Because, you know, he was thinking about all the people who have lost their homes. This is going to take years to come back. And boy, yeah, shades of, you know, the lightning fire complexes, those of us from the Bay Area remember, the wine country fires, the campfire in Paradise, California. This is just devastating. Yeah, yeah.

So the weather seems like it's giving firefighters and residents a little bit of a break right now. What do we see in the days ahead? Is that going to hold out or are we going to see more wind? Well, as of this morning, just about an hour ago, I was in the Altadena area where the Eden fires burned through and it was pretty calm. I must say there were no winds at that particular moment and yesterday I was in the Palisades and at

that particular moment, there were no winds. But of course, that could change very, very quickly, right? And so there are red flag warnings in place. I think we're looking at windy conditions on and off on through next week. And of course, we're so concerned about wind because that is the accelerant of wildfires, right? That's what makes a, you know, you have a wildfire coming at, you know, a fuel by 40, 50, 60, 70 miles per hour wind like what we had. That is no joke. So again, everybody, all of the, the

the emergency preparedness community, firefighters are keeping a close eye on the wind and the wind is important as well because it really hampers firefighting, uh, efforts. You know, you can't put, uh, airborne assets into the air to fight the fires if the winds are so are too strong. So that's what we're seeing weather wise, a really careful watch on the winds. And I should say, uh, let's stay on the atmosphere. Uh, the sky's really smoky, uh,

filled with soot and particulate matter and not great to breathe. And it's for that reasons that they've closed, I think, all area schools this week because not so much of the fire danger, but kind of just the air pollution danger. Yeah.

And I do worry that, you know, having this kind of lull in the weather and then having a return of the Santana winds, which, you know, we're at least hearing as a possibility from weather forecasters, seems sort of like a very dangerous setup, especially because, Rachel, you have noted that there are a couple of false warnings to evacuate have gone out over people's cell phones. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Yeah, that was fun. Not fun. Yesterday in the afternoon, a lot of people got a warning that was mistakenly sent to way more people than it was initially intended for. So somebody was supposed to get that warning, but it didn't.

many of us, and if you have more than one phone, you had multiple alerts coming at you, that very, very scary alert sound saying, get out now. And which immediately led to people, you know, texting each other, calling each other. Is it, is this it? Is this the go call? And, you know, eventually, eventually there was a message that went out to say, whoopsie, you know, this was, this was a, a,

uh, a fire drill, if you will. Uh, but you know, it, it has to be said, Alexis, this is, this is incredibly stressful as we've just been hearing from Saul. The firefighters are simply overwhelmed. There's no way to contain, uh,

These huge fires, small fires can become huge fires in a matter of a couple of hours. And, you know, the winds are going to take these fires where they want to go. So what that means psychologically and logistically for pretty much everybody in the L.A. basin, in the San Fernando Valley basin, is that, you know, we are on a high alert all the time. You have to have one ear peeled to the news all the time. Yeah.

So did you get the alert too? And did you, you know, have they offered an explanation for what happened? Oh, yes, I did. Like millions of other people yesterday. I came up in the press conference today as far as like the Inland Empire, like an hour, hour and a half east of LA got got these emergency alerts. At least some people did there. And it does not calm the nerves.

And I had to calm some of my neighbors. I think, you know, they kind of freaked out. And I'm the guy, you know, oh, I'm with the media. I think we're fine, you know. But, of course, they –

But they're looking at an official alert versus what I'm just saying. So yeah, it jangles nerves that are already rubbed raw and it makes people think that they're in danger. And most importantly, it creates complacency, right? If you get a false alert or two or three and nothing happens, you go, well, I'm just going to remove that app from my phone or I'm not going to pay attention. And you certainly don't want people to be doing that.

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Let's talk, Saul, about a couple of the L.A. issues that have been in the news. There were a lot of reports about water pressure issues, particularly in the Palisades area. Some people have, you know, blamed the mayor, blamed the fire department. What happened there?

there was no water pressure. I mean, apparently there was enough water in the tanks to fight these fires, but the pressure was down to such an extraordinary level because so much water was being used all at one time. And,

And, you know, we live in an age where we start assigning blame right away, right? The smoke hasn't even cleared. And, aha, it was this. Of course, water pressure wasn't an issue in the other big fire. And there were other people in charge there. But, yeah, there's going to be a lot of conversation about water pressure, water supply, water pressure issues, etc.

the the mayor i think could be argued or karen bass has not at least initially did not respond well to that again the reminder of the audience when this all started and the fire started she was uh in west africa on a mission for the white house and um came back uh but a lot of people are asking well where were you mayor bass why weren't you here and then when she got back

there's this weird probably many people have seen the video she's she's leaving the plane at LAX and a Sky News journalist is following her and and asking her a lot of questions and the mayor is just sort of standing there stone-faced for about a minute as he peppers her with questions so there's a lot of conversation now about the

The mayor, her preparation, was she ready for this? And the man she ran against, his name is Rick Caruso. He's a shopping mall mogul here in L.A. He sees this opportunity now to criticize the mayor's response. Although, as I recall, I don't remember this being a campaign issue for either one of them when they were hot and heavy on the campaign trail together.

Richard Miro, given our experience here in Northern California with major, major fire losses, what kind of differences or similarities are you seeing in the way that this is playing out in Los Angeles?

Well, you know, it is interesting that there I am talking to people who are like, you know, this is this is Karen Bass's fault for us not being prepared. There are people saying, you know, the you know, what was the emergency evacuation plan in the Pacific Palisades? You know, where we saw people being ordered by cops to, you know, abandon their cars and run down the hillside. Right. Right.

But I think it's worth bearing mention that the original sin, if you will, was decades ago, generations ago, when certain housing developments were allowed in the first place in areas, right? We remember this from Santa Rosa's, where entire neighborhoods really should have never been built in areas where the experts were telling official municipal leaders that

hey, the wind is going to come down in the event of a wildfire and destroy large neighborhoods and put civilians, residents at risk.

And so like on the one hand, yes, you can absolutely blame local officials for not planning ahead, not being ready for this time. But it's also true that we are all collectively paying the price for some bad decisions made a long, long time ago. We've been talking about the multiple wildfires in Los Angeles with our reporters on the ground. KQED senior editor Rachel Miro, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

We've also been joined by California Report co-host Saul Gonzalez. Thank you so much for your reporting, Saul. And of course, we are going to stay on this massive firestorm in Los Angeles and all the ways it's going to impact the state over the coming weeks. I'm Alexis Madrigal. We'll be right back to talk about the many virtues of the humble being.

Support for Forum comes from Broadway SF and Some Like It Hot, a new musical direct from Broadway from Tony Award-winning director Casey Nicholaw. Set in Chicago during Prohibition, Some Like It Hot tells the story of two musicians forced to flee the Windy City after witnessing a mob hit. Featuring Tony-winning choreography and an electrifying score, Some Like It Hot plays the Orpheum Theatre for three weeks only, January 7th through 26th.

Tickets on sale now at broadwaysf.com. Support for Forum comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment.

From wielding the power of the law to protect people's health, preserving magnificent places and wildlife, and advancing clean energy to combat climate change, Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer. Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org.

Welcome back to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Late last year, The Atlantic put out a big essay called "One Food to Change the World: Extolling the Virtues of the Bean." It's the latest in a long line of calls from food experts to get more of our protein from legumes and less from meat. Of course, with climate change concerns rising, those arguments are just becoming more powerful. So that's the backdrop.

But also, beans are delicious. And as people say, there's a pot for every lid in the realm of romance. There is a bean for every palate in the realm of beans. Our first guest is a legend in this world, Steve Sandoz, CEO and founder of the Napa-based company Rancho Gordo. He's also the author of The Bean Book, 100 Recipes for Cooking with All Kinds of Beans, and a Bay Area native. Welcome to Forum, Steve.

Thanks for having me. We also welcome back friend of the show, Jessica Badalana. She is the mind behind the number one New York Times bestseller, King Arthur's Big Book of Bread, co-author of the award-winning Rintaro cookbook. And she's got her own cookbook, which is a staple in our household as well, Repertoire. Welcome back, Jessica.

So nice to be here and so honored to be with the bean king himself, Steve Sando. Thanks. Given that I have two experts on beans, I wanted to settle something. It's been a very hot issue in our household. Steve Sando.

Do we have to soak every bean that a dry bean that we end up cooking or can you cook some beans without actually having to, you know, wake up at 6 a.m. or remember the night before and soak these beans?

I knew this question was coming, but if you know the source of your beans and they've been harvested within, I'd say, two years, you don't really have to soak. And so for us, I mean, that's really what I do. I just start cooking.

If you bought them in Enid, Oklahoma, in a big supermarket, I probably would soak them because you don't know how old they are. And I've heard horror stories of them being eight to 10 years old by the time they get to the consumer in places that don't move them. What about you, Jessica? Do you always soak beforehand? Do you sometimes soak beforehand?

Well, it's sort of interesting. I mean, it seems absurd to say this, but, you know, if you think about beans for what they are, which is an agricultural product, like, of course...

freshness matters. I think because it's a dried food, you know, like rice, you sort of think like, Oh, fresh recently harvested. Like that was really not something dry is dry is dry. Dry is dry is dry. Exactly. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, uh, if I have Steve's beans, I don't bother soaking them also cause I'm very forgetful. So I rarely remember. So it's sort of an ideal for the lazy cook. If I buy them here at the supermarket in Maine, where I live now, uh,

You know, those aren't, I don't think they're relatively recently harvested. They're probably more like, I hope not eight to 10 years, but maybe four to five years. And those I will soak. And the reason really is just because like, I mean, any bean will eventually get soft if you cook it long enough, but the soaking of those older beans will like shave off, you know, many hours. Yeah, yeah.

We, of course, want to hear from listeners in this part of the show. I mean, what's your go-to bean dish? Maybe even given our sophisticated culinary area here, maybe you even have a favorite bean, a specific favorite bean. You can give us a call and let us know that as well. The number is 866-733-6786. That's 866-733-6786, forum.com.

at kqed.org. Of course, we also have two experts. If you have questions about how to cook beans, you can send those over to us as well. So Steve, let's ask you, I know you probably love all of your beans equally like your children, but was there a bean in your life that set you off on this path to becoming the bean king?

But actually, there was. It was called Rio Zappe, and it's from the Southwest. It was purple with sort of black tiger spots on it. And I cooked it. I grew it. And then I started cooking it. And it's like, oh, wait, this is like Pinto's that I love. But there's a little bit of chocolate and a little bit of coffee in there. And it's so much more. And I absolutely did not understand why...

we weren't growing these because everybody knows every obscure valley in Italy or France for wine and yet here's food that was indigenous to the Americas and we didn't even know what it was so I swore then and there that my goal in life would be to make these beans popular I'm on the way but we're not even close yeah it really was Rio Zape that did it and

And we had a listener write in with kind of a similar story. Can you please ask Steve about the tapare bean? It's incredibly nutritious with lots of protein and fiber. And from what I understand, it's drought resistant, native to the southwestern United States and Mexico. Why don't we see this bean in more stores? I don't know if you know that one specifically, but it is kind of a question for me about these beans which have these incredible properties. What does it take to turn them into a sort of commercial variety?

Well, tepary beans are indigenous to, they're only U.S. indigenous bean. They are not as indulgent, if you know what I mean. I don't know what you mean. Tell me more. What do you mean they're not as indulgent? Yeah.

They're not creamy and delicious the same way. They're good, but it's more of a vegetable than a bean, even though it is a bean. So I think it's harder and it seems more culinary specific than other beans, which are sort of neutral, is what I'd say. But it's a great bean. And I actually have an old 1911 book from the University of California about growing temporary beans in California. So we actually have the history. And there's a great farm.

in Arizona, I believe, called Ramona, and they are an indigenous farm cooperative, and they're still growing it. And I recommend those if you want to try them out, is what I'd say. But when I got started, I knew nothing about agriculture. This was my first garden at the age of 40. I knew nothing about agriculture. I was sort of an accomplished home cook, not killer, but pretty good. And I

I just didn't understand the problems with these beans not being sold. So I just went in blind and it really helped not having an agriculture background because it's like I just did what made sense to me. And even though I didn't get a lot of support from the industry in that sense, it it helped. Jessica, do you have a favorite bean or bean preparation?

Um, I don't think I have a favorite bean. I mean, I think it is sort of astonishing. Like if you go to the Rancho Gordo website, like it's an astonishing number of varieties of beans that they sell, like so many more than you see in the grocery store. Like, I mean, you know, where you can usually just get kidney beans, garbanzo beans, you know, like I feel like what we can find readily is so narrow compared to what there is out there. Um,

So I always love messing around. Like if I'm in a co-op and I see a new to me variety of bean, like I'll always buy some because the other thing is like it's a it's a low cost risk, right? Like beans are inexpensive. Even the fanciest beans are inexpensive. So I feel like I'll always, you know, I'll always try something new. But the way that I cook most of the beans is just to make like a pot of beans.

brothy beans that then I'll like eat out of the bowl or I'll put in salads or add to pasta. So I try and like once a week just make a pot of some kind of bean just to kind of get us through. Yeah. Is there a particular kind of tip aside from put beans in water and boil? Like if you wanted to up your game in cooking beans, like one step, what would that be?

I mean, I think, and I bet that Steve would agree, like I'll saute some aromatics, you know, like whatever, an onion, some garlic, I'll throw in a bay leaf. This morning I actually made a, I was method acting for this and I started a pot of beans and I had, well, we've already, you know, a week into the new year, we've already given up and we had breakfast for dinner last night. So we had bacon and

And I took the bacon fat that was leftover, sauteed my onions, garlic, bay leaf. Then I dumped in my beans. So that's like, you know, just a little bit of aromatics added to it will sort of hot rod it. But, you know, also I think you want to keep...

your beans covered with water while they're cooking. I say in repertoire, like you want them to look like they're in a bathtub, you know, like they're just sort of just covered. But I think that's nice because then as you cook it, the broth itself, like some of the water evaporates and then the broth itself just becomes like concentrated and like a luscious elixir.

Yeah, that was kind of the potlicker is the thing that actually changed my mind about beans when I started to just like spoon into that and say like, wow, this is so delicious. Obviously, the thing that made this, the bean must be so good too. Steve, do you want to give us your sort of one cooking improvement step up and then we'll go to some phones?

Well, I think cooking the hell out of them for 10 minutes is the one thing that I discovered. So you bring it to, for 10 minutes, they're yours to treat poorly. And then you turn them down and say you're sorry and love them for about an hour to an hour and a half is what I would say. What do you say? I think it's on your website or your book. You say something like, show them your boss for 15 minutes. Well, I didn't use that word. I have a worse word. I use a lot. Yeah.

I love it. I did that this morning. That initial, you can't, you know, nothing's going to happen within 10 minutes as far as like them breaking or you can't overcook them if you boil them for about 10 to 15 minutes in the beginning. But then after that, I trim them down and hopefully it's a leisurely day so you can take your time and let them come. I have followed these exact instructions and it really does work. Janet in Napa, welcome to the show.

Hi, thank you for having me. Yeah, thanks for joining us. Hey, I just want to say I'm a number one fan of Steve and Rancho Gordo and I've been shopping with them, buying from them for all 15 years I've lived in Napa. And their beans make fantastic gifts, just an easy, you know, $6 gift to anybody. I ship them to family in Texas. But the Royal Corona is my favorite. When you...

do a cassoulet with royal corona beans, which swell to the size of about a quarter, people's eyes bug out. It's a sight to be seen. And, you know, just experimenting with the beans through the years, I also, just this Christmas, developed a vegan KFC-tasting gravy. And the key ingredient after a vegetable puree is...

is to make it that brown color is some pureed brown beans. And I hit it this year. So thank you, Steve. And thank you for all the charity donations he gives to organizations in Napa as well. Hey, thank you so much. I have to say, Janet also brought up my favorite bean, which is I'm of the bigger the bean, the better kind of camp. And the Corona beans, I think, are just spectacular. And I think

It's fascinating because you kind of can't go wrong with them, I feel like, but they do take longer, right? Like there is a relationship, Steve, between the size of the bean and the cooking time, right? Yeah, and also the skin and just other attributes. That is one I actually, despite saying I don't soak, I probably would

On Sunday morning, put that in to go for a hike and come back. Because it is. But when it's cooked, it's almost humorous how large it is. You could actually move in. And what's cool about those is that's a bean that we think we can trace to Oaxaca, Mexico, bred in Italy. We grow it in Poland. And then now it's shipped back to us. So it's a bean with quite a journey. And I think that's what's so romantic about beans, too, especially if you grow them.

You can put them in your pocket and go to Istanbul and then go to Kokomo, Indiana. It just, they can go with you. And I just find it very romantic. Yeah.

So what about there is one, the forum team has multiple people on it who believe in this one brand of Corona beans called La Conservadela Nona. They're not canned. They're in a jar. And is it cheating? Like, are you mad at people who use the jarred Corona beans? Like, should I be making them from scratch or is it okay to cheat with this particular brand of beans, which you've probably seen?

I actually don't know it, to tell you the truth. The problem, and I don't know, I know with tinned beans and cans, you have to rinse off the gross muck because the beans are actually cooked in the tin. So it's not like- Yeah, no, these are different. These you could just pour the liquid right into your mouth. Like if you were disgusting, you could do that. Like the original protein shake. Yeah, the original, exactly, exactly.

You know, Jessica might have a thought. I've never had them because why would I? I texted her a photo of them earlier this morning, and apparently I get to share a bean thing with both of you, which has made me really happy. Let's bring in Megan in Dayton, Ohio.

Hi, I am so delighted to hear this conversation because I happen to be cooking beans for the family that I work for for dinner tonight. But I am calling because I recently discovered...

a couple of years ago, the bean pot. And I don't know if it's just psychological on my part, but I have been using a bean pot in my own home, soaking beans overnight and then slow cooking them for hours and hours in the oven in a ceramic bean pot. And I have had the most delicious, when I've been successful, which is most of the time, the most delicious beans I've ever had in my life.

So I just want to know if they have much, if any, experience with the age old bean pot. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yes, Steve, go ahead. I is the best way to cook a bean. So I actually on Facebook host a group called Cooking with Clay. And, you know, locally, Paula Wolfert was a huge influence on me. And I. Why is it better?

Ask an old Italian grandma. I don't know. Paula said that clay retains the flavor of everything that was ever cooked in it. So you'd want a dedicated fish one probably, but I have many bean pots and most of them are clay. You do need a gas stove or do it out on the barbecue, but it's low and slow. When I used to do farmer's markets, I used to pass out to the smell of burning beans because I was so tired and so tired.

Switch to clay and I never burned another pot because it's just low and gentle. You can't do it. You, there are, if the clay were to break and it's white, that's, you can't put that on the stove top and that should really be slow cooking. But if it looks like mud, that's a low fired pot and that could go right on the gas. And I do that every week actually. And those micaceous pots from, uh,

New Mexico are a perfect example of a great, great beanpot. You actually have a funny beanpot story, Alexis. Yeah, go ahead. When I was living in San Francisco, there was like, I don't know if

people were moving out of their apartment or something. There was a giant pile of trash, you know, old furniture, broken futon, whatever the whole thing just bounded outside of somebody's house. But like in the, in the trash heap was a like new England style, real McCoy, McCoy being the manufacturer beanpot, you know, the, the, those are the ones that are like darker Brown glaze on the bottom lighter on top. They had to sort of like a, you know, smaller neck and then they widen out. And,

And I like lit upon that bean pot and I climbed into this trash heap and retrieved it, retrieved my real McCoy and I still use that all the time. And those pots are really common here in Maine where I live now, which is honestly a very big bean state, particularly baked beans.

I don't mean to brag, but we're kind of known for our beans. We're kind of a big deal here. Well, I mean, the original sort of like church supper, community supper here in Maine is like, they call them bean hole beans. So you dig a hole in the ground, you fill it with, you know, you start a fire in it. Once the coals break down, you put your bean pot in it, mound the earth on top and let it sit kind of like a pig roast overnight. And then you dig them up the next day. And those bean pot beans are,

Not at all practical, but so delicious. And I think it is that like slow transfer of heat through the clay pot, you know, that like nice low and slow treatment, man, that makes a good pot of beans. So in the Italians do all fiasco where they take old Chianti bottles, fill it with little tiny white beans and olive oil and water and put it in the embers at night. And in the morning they have insane beans. So it's the same thing, I think. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Um,

A listener writes in to say, Mexican-style pinto beans are my ultimate comfort food. I grew up eating them with any meal, any time of day. They even showed up next to the Thanksgiving turkey in my Mexican household. Latinas have a saying, hay frijoles en la casa, which translates to there are beans at home, but really means why on earth would you waste money eating out when there are perfectly amazing beans everywhere?

at home. The idea is you make a big pot of beans and then you can eat them for days and to me beans are a culinary and cultural treasure which is why I have always been appalled that they're the butt of jokes that are a form of anti-Mexican prejudice. My husband, also Mexican-American, was once called a "beaner" by a bully in elementary school to whom he responded, "Is that all you've got? I love beans!"

Beans and everyone who loves them deserve respect. Amen. We've been talking about the glorious and humble bean with Steve Sandoz, the CEO and founder of Rancho Gordo, as well as Jessica Badalana, a chef and cookbook author. Her cookbook is called Repertoire, and you should have it.

We want to hear from you. What's your go-to bean or bean dish? The number is 866-733-6786. Forum at kqed.org or on all the social media things. We're KQED Forum. We're going to get to more of your questions, more of your favorite beans when we get back. Support for Forum comes from Broadway SF and Some Like It Hot, a new musical direct from Broadway from Tony Award-winning director Casey Nicholaw.

Set in Chicago during Prohibition, Some Like It Hot tells the story of two musicians forced to flee the Windy City after witnessing a mob hit. Featuring Tony-winning choreography and an electrifying score, Some Like It Hot plays the Orpheum Theater for three weeks only, January 7th through 26th.

Tickets on sale now at BroadwaySF.com. Support for Forum comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment.

From wielding the power of the law to protect people's health, preserving magnificent places and wildlife, and advancing clean energy to combat climate change, Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer. Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org.

Welcome back to Forum. Alexis Madrigal here. We are talking about the bean, the wonderful, glorious, humble bean. We're joined by Steve Sando, the CEO and founder of the Napa-based company Rancho Gordo. Of course, he's also got a cookbook called The Bean Book, 100 Recipes for Cooking with All Kinds of Beans.

Jessica Badalana, chef and cookbook author with us as well. She's co-author of the Rintaro Cookbook and has her own cookbook repertoire. She's a staff editor at King Arthur Baking. Okay, a couple of listener questions, and then I'm going to come to you on this, Steve. One listener writes,

Beans are part of our three sisters trio, along with squash and corn. They function as a soil nutrient, depositing nitrogen into it, which is something that a lot of other crops need and thrive on. In terms of culinary uses, beans are shelf-stable and incredibly versatile. Beans are an inexpensive protein, so they're often overlooked, but they can take on incredible flavor and pack a punch as part of a nutritionally balanced diet. Another listener on Blue Sky writes, in a recent New York Times article of 10 ways to eat better,

The number one recommendation is to eat more legumes. I love them and cook them regularly. Having them on hand already cooked makes it easy to add them to salad soups, assorted recipes. They freeze great as well. Okay, given that, given that,

Steve, you wrote at one point about your interest in beans. People were kind but also felt sorry for me because I was so passionate about such a, quote, loser ingredient. What has made beans feel like a, quote, loser food? That's from your cookbook. Oh, that's so funny. Well, I think because they've always been marketed and thought of, especially in the last generations, as either health food or poor people food.

And when I got started, and I think growing up in the Bay Area, I didn't have quite that much baggage because we had instead of

Mac and cheese. My mother used to make tostadas with Rosarito refried beans. So I had a love of them early on, but I do remember being at the farmer's market and it actually was Thomas Keller from French laundry. And this was about 2002 came up and he said, what you're doing is very important. And I almost started crying. I was like, you're right. It is. But it dawned on me, like, I'm not going to market these as health food or green food, even though they are. I mean, and I hate that term super food, but they are.

But it's flavor. I mean, the reason you should cook beans is because they taste so great. Oh, and by the way, they are incredible for your health and they're easy on the environment, if not actually helping it. So I think years of me complaining has helped a lot. Evangelizing. Years of you evangelizing. Yeah.

You know, now it's like, I mean, I feel like your bean club that you have, you know, the bean of the month club is like a status symbol now. Like, I am not off the wait list. So I say this as somebody that like hopes that someday. Hint, hint, Steve. Hint, hint, hint. I know a guy. I might be able to help. Maybe my spot on the wait list will be passed on to my children. But I think, yeah, you know, in like among people that are interested in food, like,

you have really sort of changed the game. And I feel like now, like the idea of these sort of like pedigreed beans is like, they're considered now like a fancy ingredient. Like people in the know get these beans that are, you know, unusual. And it's because of you. I mean, nobody else can take the blame. No, it's true.

We had one customer who said that she put her bean club status on her Tinder profile. I mean, honestly, I would swipe right. Is that what you do on Tinder? Swipe right? I don't know. Yeah. In the correct direction is what you're saying. Yeah, exactly. Let's bring in Dave with perhaps a controversial take. Dave in San Francisco. Welcome.

Hi, big bean fan. And Steve really showed me the way on this many years ago during the pandemic. I stumbled upon in the last year, a really unorthodox and at first very weird way to hook beans. That is now almost the only way I cook beans, which is from Molly bath. And basically it was in one of her cookbooks. You,

The weird thing is you put all the beans in a Dutch oven, you put a bunch of water, you put a ton of olive oil, which was surprising to me, and baking soda, and then whole, like, or quartered onion, half garlic clove, whole jalapeno cut in half, and even a Parmesan rind. She does a little meat, we don't do meat. And

And then you just bring it to a simmer on the stovetop, but then put it in the oven at 300 and let it, I think it's between 30 and 60 minutes, depending on how you soak. And the olive oil and all of that thing makes the beans, um,

I've never had beans like that, and it blew my mind, and it's now a very standard thing. We have a baby, and basically I do a pot of beans that way once a week and then occasionally refry them on the stove to prepare for her. And I will say at first I was extremely skeptical of this and was like, what do you mean put baking soda in and put so much olive oil in? But I've seen the light here, and I love this way –

Yeah, I love that. Dave, thank you so much. I appreciate that. Also, what do you think, Steve, of this method of cooking meat? Well, we used to call it the Russ Parsons method because Russ was the food editor at the L.A. Times and he developed something very similar. The baking soda throws me. I don't.

If you don't know where your beans from or if they've been stored in a desert for 10 years, maybe. But I don't really think what is baking soda supposed to do? Like, why would one put baking soda in? It does. It softens them, but it can leave a soapy flavor. I'm sure he's going to say there's no way, but soapy.

It can. And a lot of times when you'll see recipes for chickpeas or garbanzos, they'll say you need to cook it with baking soda. And it's because they've been stored, I think, improperly and they're older because we do. We grow all of ours in California and we don't even soak, let alone add the baking soda. It can add a soapy flavor. And if you don't know your beans, maybe it's an OK thing to do. Are you also a hater on baking soda, Jessica?

uh i am agnostic on it but i don't do it um i i've never seen the need for it but i am pro you know from time to time i will do the oven method for beans like if i don't want to you know because you do have to i mean it's not you don't have to be that vigilant but you have to make sure that the water level of beans on the stovetop doesn't dip too low i have um

well, you know, I've had some accidents is all I'm going to say. But if you haven't covered in the oven, you know, it's like you've got a little bit more wiggle room if you if they're in there for an extra 10 minutes, you know, they're not going to it's not going to boil off. So I sometimes do the oven method. And it's also nice, like in New England in the winter to have your oven on for a while. So so I'm, you know, I'm pro that method for sure. If you want something that's a little more hands off. And I know people do like, you

You know, crock pots, instant pot, things like that. I don't have pressure cookers. I don't have one of those, but if you want to speed it up. You knew that's where I was going because Kelly writes in to say, I love beans, always have. I never had luck with dry beans, but hate using canned beans due to the high waste of the cans and the high sodium. Then I learned that if dry beans are too old, they'll never really cook properly, even if soaked.

Then I tried pressure cooking them. Even old beans behave properly. One cup dry bean, two cups water. Pressure cook them for 50 to 65 minutes. Perfect every time.

- Uh-huh. - That's great. - I will say nothing has changed the bean game like that Instant Pot. So people, and you can see why. Beans are intimidating to a new cook. There are these hard rocks and you're telling me I'm gonna cook them into creamy orbs? No, that's not ever gonna happen. And then here's something that tells you, you just push a button and you can do it. And so it's very powerful and a lot of people are busy and I get it. But I will just say, unless you live in a mountainous area,

The pressure cooker is not going to give you the same results because, as Jessica was talking, there's no evaporation. So the bean broth is kind of dead. So I think Deborah Madison, dropping a name, I love doing that, told me she will cook under pressure 20 minutes, do a natural release, and then take the lid off and then let it cook another 20 minutes with air and get some evaporation going. Thank you, Jason.

This would be if it's all right. I think you'll indulge me. I think you should cook a pot of beans on Sunday, however you do it. And then you have them throughout the week. Like to come home from work and have to cook a pot of beans for that night's dinner is a pressure I don't think you deserve. I think you talk.

if you have it on sunday you're you're armed and ready for the week is what i would say it's true i mean it is true yeah yeah i mean i think the other reason they're intimidating and then we go back to the phones is just that they they don't cook quite in like a linear way like it seems like they hit some point you know there's a couple of of points where they sort of jump to a new state it's like a phase change and so it's not like you can you you can try them and stuff but it doesn't until they hit the point where they're supposed to be they're not good you know

And it does change them. They are different. But I'll tell you, Diana Kennedy, dropping another name, used to, because she was very mountainous and a lot of Mexican cooks and in Colorado, they have to use a pressure cooker. She would do it in the pressure cooker three quarters of the way and then finish it in a clay pot because she knew clay was the way to go. That seems like excessively high maintenance, doesn't it, Steve? There's a lot of roads to Rome. I mean, if you're cooking beans, you're way ahead. So I used to get

Yeah.

Yeah, try. Well, this is actually the former chef of A16, Liza Shaw, who now actually lives here in Maine, another transplant. She said, like, if you, you know, take five beans out of the pot, eat them. And if you're chewing the beans and wondering if they're done, they're not done. I think.

Like that seems so obvious, but it's like sometimes you're like, oh, is it done? Like, I don't know. It seems close. And like, no, it should be like yielding and creamy and delicious. So if you're wondering, just keep just keep cooking. I love it. Don in Mountain View. Let's run through some calls. Welcome, Don.

Hey, this is a great show. I love it. We're big bean fans in our family. We are Instapot users, so no shade on us, hopefully. But I like learning about the evaporated finish, if you will. I wanted to talk about the yellow-eyed bean, which I think is a highly underrated bean.

you know, having such high protein content. My husband grew up in New England, so we're big fans of New England baked beans rather than Boston baked beans because we love maple syrup. So I just, because I heard your, your main guest talk about being from Maine and Maine is a great, sorry, branch of Gorder guy, you know, Maine is a great grower of yellow eyed beans. So I,

I don't know if you talked about it, but that's a great bean. And the other bean that I really love is chickpeas because I went to Italy once and I had cittina, which is this chickpea flour-based flatbread. And I'm like, okay.

I feel like beans are so great because it's so versatile. It's not just soups. You can make solid things, too. So it's a fabulous, fabulous thing, you know. So thanks for the show. Great work, guys. Great. Hey, thank you, Don. Let's go straight to Marwan in Santa Rosa who wants to shout out a bean, too. Marwan, welcome. Hello. Good morning. Go ahead.

Yeah, you know, this is fava beans. The two recipes I want to talk about, I grew up eating them, cooking the whole fava bean pod. But to do that, they're really hard to find. They have to be small and tender and not the big ones you see in the farmer's market.

So when I go to farmer's market, I see a pile of them. I try to find the smallest one possible. And often I have to go with myself to get it in

in that small size. Okay, once you get that small size fava bean that's really hard to find, then there are two recipes. One is sauteed in a frying pan with olive oil and onions. And when they're done, you break a couple of eggs on top of that and it's served with yogurt. Yum. That's one. The second recipe is you take that sauteed beans and onions and

and put them in the bottom of a rice cooker or a pot, if you're cooking rice in a pot. And then you put the rice on top of it, steamed rice as you would. And then when it's all done, you turn it upside down, and you have the pile of rice with the fava beans and all that on top. Oh, that's gorgeous. With your rice.

So that is something I grew up eating. It's very hard for me to find here. So often I grow the fallow beans. Yeah, I was about to say, you got to grow them yourself. I mean, also, I mean, I planted a...

I believe it was an Iranian variety of fava beans from Rehan herb farm and just like basically two plants Gave me. I mean I'm talking hundreds of fava beans in addition to all of their greens, too Which are delicious? I mean Jessica. Do you do you cook with those? I mean like I feel like they seem like a very underrated part of the of the bean world

I, you know, the season here for fava beans is about 20 minutes long. It's not like it is in California. I do like them. I mean, they are a royal pain in the butt to peel and then you blanch them and then you have to peel them a second time. Like, I mean, I do like them, but I don't know if I like them. I hate to say it.

I don't know if I like them enough for the amount of work. No, I totally agree. But that's my Marwan's version of it, where you pick them very small, like twice as much work. Oh, you mean don't peel them? No, you don't peel them. You don't even take them out of the pod. You just go straight up in the in the pod. And that is the thing that I have discovered is both the greens and the fresh pods are really delicious. I do love I mean, I do love fresh

Shelling beans, though, you know, which are just dried beans before they get dried. And those I can get here, you know, toward the end of the summer, early fall. And I think those are one of the most delicious things to eat in the whole universe. And I do a bean salad. The recipe is actually in my book repertoire. It's like a bean salad with aioli on it and tomatoes. And man, that like tomato juice, aioli, bean liquid. Delicious. Yeah.

A couple of comments coming in here. Rachel writes, the intimidating part of dried beans is that I feel like I have to cook one pound at a time. For one to two people, it can be difficult to eat all these beans and much can go to waste. What do you recommend for cooking fewer portions at a time, Steve?

Well, I live by myself at this point, and I cook half a pound a week. So I just cook less. I mean, or freeze them. They do freeze beautifully. They freeze really well. Yeah. There are these things called super cubes, which are kind of silicone ice trays that are portioned in one cup portions. I think it's really worth having, but yeah.

And then you're just like giving a gift to your future self. Like if you cook a pound, cause like you're going to make the investment of time. So I sort of feel like it's one of those things like you might as well make a big batch and then portion them out and freeze them. And then, you know, that'll last you for two weeks. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, I was going to say with the water, the bean broth, and he was talking about rice. I mean, replace some of the water when you're cooking rice in your rice cooker with extra bean broth. It's absolutely delicious. And another thing would be, I just wanted to mention,

In Mexico, when you're weaning the children, the first thing you give them is bean broth because it's full of protein. It's easy to digest. And then they have a love of beans. So bean broth is really good. Kids do love beans. My children love beans. They do. And have since they were very small toddlers. I have some videos of my younger son eating a quart container of beans and greens at the

you know, piling it in and they still do. They love refried beans. They love bean salad. So, you know, talk about a nutritional powerhouse for a kid. Yeah. Yeah.

We have so many comments that I'm going to try and run through really quickly. One listener writes, Christmas Lima, Christmas Lima, Christmas Lima. Another person wanted to shout out Heidi Swanson's Christmas Lima Bean Stew in the Rancho Gordo Beautiful New Bean book. Another person wants to shout out...

Flageolet beans and as far as soaking says yeah, I do it and we use a pressure cooker sometimes Todd on blue sky Loves royal corona beans another listener loves good mother Stollard beans

Let's see here. Oh my gosh, there's so many of these. A couple other recipes. Beans and greens over polenta, Rancho Gordo's Lucas Volger's smoky confit beans with olives is ridiculously good. And their three sisters' favorite guajillo beans recipe. Another bean and fennel gratin recipe.

saute curly endive in olive oil with garlic when wilted add cooked Marcella beans or cannellini beans so many of these we'll try and gather these up for the discord I think because people it is nice to have an easy bean recipe final listener comment my family's from northern New Mexico my grandpa Eli would show up at my home unannounced when I was a child and we would know he was there by the fragrant pot of

beans on the stove. Cook low and slow over 18 to 24 hours. Now a treasured family recipe referred to as grandpa beans. We eat them with sopapillas and it reminds me of home and my beloved grandpa. Thank you so much, Steve Sandoz, CEO and founder of Rancho Gordo. Thank you so much, friend of the show and cookbook author, Jessica Badalani. You guys were so fun. Thank you. Thank you. Eat more beans. Eat more beans. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Stay tuned for another hour of Forum Ahead with guest host, Arthi Shahani.

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