Rick Steves Reflects on a Life of Travel
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From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Nina Kim. Coming up on Forum, Rick Steves is one of the most trusted sources for Americans traveling abroad. But he once dreamed of becoming a piano teacher. That was before he backpacked along the hippie trail from Istanbul to Kathmandu in 1978, a trip that made him want to help others experience life-altering travel, as well as the subject of his new book.

We'll talk to Steve's about how foreign travel has changed dramatically in the last few decades and why he thinks traveling is a political act. What's a life lesson you learned from travel? Join us. Welcome to Forum. I'm Mina Kim.

A 2019 New York Times Magazine profile of travel guru and popular public television host Rick Steves says, quote, Among travelers, Steves has established himself as one of the legendary PBS super dorks, right there in the pantheon with Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and Big Bird. Like them, Steves is a gentle soul who wants to help you feel at home in the world, end quote.

But Steve's is also firm about the need for Americans to leave the U.S. and visit another country. It was a life-altering trip that cemented this belief, which is the subject of his new book called On the Hippie Trail, Istanbul to Kathmandu and the Making of a Travel Writer. Rick, welcome to Forum. Mina, so nice to be with you. Good to be with you, too. So do you still firmly hold on to that belief that Americans traveling to foreign countries is inherently good?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's one thing you learn when you travel is that we need to get out there and get to know the world. The world is a smaller and smaller place. It's more and more complicated. The world's a beautiful place. It's filled with love. It's filled with people and joy and families. And of course, it's complicated and there's some bad characters. But the worst thing I believe we can do is build walls. I mean, we need bridges if we really want to be safe and stable. Now, you wrote a book called

called Travel as a Political Act. Why do you see traveling as a political act?

You know, we do a lot of traveling just as affluent, privileged people and curious about the world. And we have choices to make. You can travel as a tourist, you can travel as a traveler, or you can travel as a pilgrim. And I don't think you need to be all one or all the other, but it's nice to know you got options and you can mix it up. And I like to mix in a little bit of pilgrim with the tourist and realize that you learn a lot about your home by leaving it and looking at it from a distance.

to have the healthy attitude that culture shock is not something to avoid, but culture shock is a constructive thing. It's the growing pains of a broadening perspective and it needs to be curated. And that's what I like to do is curate.

And I found a niche where I just really, because of my own experience on the road, I love to make mistakes, take careful notes, learn from my experience and come home and what we like to say, equip and inspire Americans to venture beyond Orlando. You know, nothing wrong with Lala travel, but La La Land is one thing and we need a little bit of reality.

because, you know, America has some work cut out for it to help be a constructive part of the family of nations. I love the idea of learning about the world by traveling. Tell me the differences between the three things you just listed, a tourist, a traveler, and a pilgrim. Well, you know, a tourist is...

A tourist goes to Vegas or Disney World and has a good time. And for that person, the road is playground. A traveler goes to try new things and to learn and broaden their perspectives. And for that person, the road is school.

And a pilgrim goes to learn about themselves and to be philosophical or spiritual about life and why are we here and what does it matter. And for that person, the road is church or synagogue or mosque.

And I think the industry wants everybody to go, makes more money if everybody just goes as a tourist, you know. But for me, I believe in global citizenship. I believe in celebrating diversity rather than being afraid of it. And I love the idea that when we travel, we can get more friendly with the world. You know, it's kind of, there's a fundamental spiritual thing about this. If you believe in God, whether it's through a Christian lens or whatever, you know,

If you believe in God, we're all children of this heavenly creator. And that means we're all brothers and sisters. And when you travel with that understanding, you get to know the family. And that's a constructive thing. And when you travel with that understanding, you realize love thy neighbor has nothing to do with proximity.

I love the idea that love your neighbor is the same across the street or across the sea. If there's need, if there's suffering, if there's joy across the street, it's no better or no worse than the same thing across the sea. And that opens up my whole world and it lets me have this global citizenship. And that makes me, I think, a fuller person, a person that's less riddled with fear and

and enjoys getting to know the world. Yeah. Do you feel like that approach to travel is still the prevailing approach, or do you feel like things have changed a lot? Well,

There's a huge industry of people just going for their selfies and Instagram travel and bucket list travel and, you know, go to a golf course. Nothing wrong with that, but that kind of travel is missing the potential value of travel. And a lot of people are frightened these days. You know, when I wrote On the Hippie Trail, people didn't say have a safe trip. They said, bon voyage.

Today, people don't say bon voyage, they say have a safe trip. And when somebody tells me have a safe trip, I'm inclined to say, well, you have a safe stay at home. Because where I'm going, statistically, and I know statistics are optional these days, but where I'm going, statistically, is safer than where you're staying. You know, people say have a safe trip now. It is much safer to travel now than it was when people said bon voyage. It's just people are encouraged to see the world as a menacing place.

You know, this fear that I'm talking about, it's something that a traveler understands that fear is for people who don't get up very much. The flip side of fear is understanding, and we gain understanding when we travel. Think about the most frightened people on our planet. Well, think about the most frightened people in our country. Who are these people? They're most likely to be people without...

Passports buried at least metaphorically deep in the middle of this country whose worldview is shaped by fear-mongering commercial TV news. That's not me, and that's not people who appreciate public broadcasting, and that's not people who have traveled. When we travel, we realize that if you really care about safety, we've got to get out there and play ball with the family of nations.

I love the notion that 1,400 years ago, Muhammad said, don't tell me how educated you are. Tell me how much you've traveled.

Well, that's a challenge for all of us to become better educated through our travels. And I find that there are powerful forces in our society that would find it more profitable if we're all dumbed down. If we're all dumbed down, it's easy to have our way with this. It's tough for the people who are very rich and powerful to get even more rich and powerful in a democracy if the electorate is thoughtful. So part of the...

You know, modus operandi is get rid of that thoughtfulness. Travel. Travel. Travel just broadens your thinking. Wow. I think you're answering this listener's question. The sister writes, from the time I was 19, travel has opened a fantastic world of discovery. Each place has been amazing, especially Iceland and Spain. Most of the people in my family do not want to travel abroad, only locally and to visit families.

family to each his home to each his own but that seems sad to me what does rick recommend for those of us who don't want to be mugged at 8 p.m on the way home from the pub so basically yes talking about that fear and i think you gave a pretty passionate plea for why fear should not stop you from traveling abroad yeah mina if you don't want to get mugged at eight o'clock walking home from the pub stop going to pubs in america you know go to pubs almost anywhere else and it's safer

So Rick, do people in other countries, especially nowadays, want us? I mean, you read all the time about cities like Venice and Barcelona really trying to clamp down on tourism through clamping down on short-term rentals, for example, or raising tourist taxes because they're dealing with issues of over-tourism.

Well, there's good travelers and there's bad travelers in the eyes of those people that are demonstrating in Europe against tourism. If you're in Barcelona and you're down on tourism, you're down on cruise tourism. Barcelona is a huge cruise port and cruisers, they are the worst kind of travelers from a local person's point of view. I mean, they trample in and they trample out in massive numbers and they have dinner and they sleep on the boat and they don't leave much except garbage where they sightsee.

And they don't have much curiosity or understanding about the culture they're exploring. They've just got a bunch of selfies they want to take and a bunch of souvenirs they want to buy, and then they're back on their way. My kind of travelers, the people who I like to, I hope I inspire to travel in a thoughtful way, equipped with one of my guidebooks, of course, they are people who spend the night doing

buy a dinner, bring a curiosity and some sort of context, and want to learn from that culture. And this is a kind of quality traveler in the eyes of the residents there. And those residents understand that there's an economic reality. In a lot of these beautiful towns, tourism butters the bread. I mean, that's a big part of their economy. They don't want to get rid of all the tourism. They just want thoughtful travelers. Airbnb is a good example.

I mean, you know, it's an ethical issue if you use Airbnb in a big city because Airbnb and short-term rental programs are decimating traditional neighborhoods. The most cute and charming neighborhoods are cute and charming because people live there, real people who keep the shops in business.

Well, if a landlord can triple their income by booting the pensioners and replacing them with short-term tourists that pay a lot more money, well, the landlords make more money. But what does that do to the economic structure of that community? There's no more little shops that cater to the local people. There's just, you know, gift shops and cafes and restaurants

restaurants that serve fruity drinks and exotic delights on skewers and touristy stuff. So, you know, that's fun for tourism, but there's a consequence. The neighborhoods die, the people that used to live there are shoved to the less charming concrete suburbs, and tourists trample that culture.

In Barcelona, the Ramblas is the beloved main boulevard. Well, people who go there today don't understand that it's no longer the Ramblas because not many people live there to keep the Boqueria market vibrant. And in my Barcelona guidebook, when I write about the Ramblas, up on the headline it says, Ramblas, R-I-P, rest in peace, because it's gone. You also were talking about America's need to be a good neighbor recently.

Would you say that the prevailing perception of Americans traveling abroad, especially in Europe where you spend a lot of time, do you feel like it's changed and maybe not for the better? Well, people marvel at how we could elect a president that has the worldview of Donald Trump. It's confusing to Europeans because America is supposed to be about pluralism and freedom and freedom.

caring about other people. And now it's a different kind of priorities we have in the United States. But the ideals of America, and most of the world when they think about America, there are ideals that are grander than any one president's policies are.

These are the ideals that inspire people, and those are still shining and inspiring from a hilltop. And I like to think that those deals will survive. But right now it's a confusing time for a lot of people that are inclined to appreciate and love American society.

And we're welcome, but they want to know what's going on in our country. Listeners, we're talking with Rick Steves, travel writer, host of the TV series Rick Steves Europe. What do you want to ask or tell Rick? Tell us after the break. I'm Mina Kim. Hi, I'm Bianca Taylor. I'm the host of KQED's daily news podcast, The Latest.

Powered by our award-winning newsroom, the latest keeps you in the know because it updates all day long. It's trusted local news in real time on your schedule. Look for the latest from KQED wherever you get your podcasts and stay connected to all things Bay Area in 20 minutes or less.

Welcome back to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Listeners, what's a life-changing lesson you learned from traveling? We're talking with Rick Steves this hour, a trusted source for many Americans traveling abroad, host of the TV series Rick Steves Europe, which has run for 12 seasons. Rick Steves is a

And tell us also what travel questions you have for Rick. And have you taken a trip based on Rick Steves' advice? The email address is forum at kqed.org. You can find us on Blue Sky Facebook, Instagram, Threads at KQED Forum. You can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786.

And Carolyn writes, my family strayed from Rick for one meal in France in 2012, and it was one of the worst dining experiences of our lives. Since then, we have devoutly followed the mantra, in Rick, we trust. Whoa. Well, that's nice to hear. Thank you very much. I take it very, the responsibility of having well-researched guidebooks pretty seriously. I mean, I've got 60 guidebooks now that I am with my colleagues here at Rick Steves Europe.

research and write. And we're kind of old-fashioned. We visit each of the places in the books in person with each edition, and we want that to be exactly up to date. And I spend 100 days a year in Europe myself, and I'm busy generally alone with a local guide. When I look at my itinerary, it says G10 and G6 on each day, and that means at 10 o'clock I will book a guide, a private guide, to be with me for the daytime activities.

I'll take a little break and then in the evening at 6 o'clock I'll meet another guide who specializes in restaurants and run around and check out all the restaurants in my books. And, you know, some people recognize the value of a guidebook. Other people like crowdsourcing where whatever's number one on TripAdvisor, they're going to figure, well, that's the place to go.

I just love the challenge to be up to date in my guidebooks. And I feel like a guidebook is a $20 tool for a $3,000 experience that's going to, if it's any good, it's going to pay for itself on the shuttle in from the airport. But people have to recognize that you need to equip yourself with good information, expect yourself to travel smart, and you will. Yeah. Isn't that one of the big differences now too, that there is just so much information that can be hard to determine what's good?

You know, I've just noticed that with the new political environment we're living in today. In Trump's world, they have decided to call quality journalism legacy media. KQED, public broadcasting, the big networks, legacy media, meaning putting a negative spin on it. And what is the alternative to legacy media? Well, it is social media.

It's the same thing in my world as a travel writer. I really value good, quality, carefully updated information. It's the kind of journalism for me that I base my explorations on. There are guidebooks that are written year after year after year by caring experts who are passionate about a certain country. That's legacy media, I suppose, in the travel world. Then there is social media, which is crowdsourcing.

And what is crowdsourcing? Oh, everybody's eating at this Tex-Mex restaurant in Paris. Now it's the greatest thing. So other people figure that's the gospel truth and they make a beeline for that Tex-Mex restaurant in Paris. Why? Because it managed to get Fennangle, the number one spot on the list.

To me, that's not travel journalism. That's just a bunch of people who have not been there before that are in a self-fulfilling whirlpool of misinformation. So, you know, going, as you mentioned, the problem now is there's too much information. In the old days, there wasn't enough information. And now part of my work is to help curate all the information that's out there. Well, your new book is not a guidebook. It's on the hippie trail. It's based on old journals and photos from 1978 documenting the

That trip that you took from Istanbul to Kathmandu, these journals you rediscovered during the pandemic. Tell us about making that discovery and also what it was like for you to read those journals that you wrote when you were 23 years old.

Yeah, Mina, I have, if you know, I've been working with KQED during pledge time, you know, for 20 or 30 years, and I'm such a fan of being able to share the lessons of my travels, and I'm so thankful for KQED and for public broadcasting. This book dates from before I was a travel writer. I was a piano teacher, and after graduating from college, I'd been to Europe many times, I wanted to head east, and I wanted to do the thing hippies did back then.

In the 60s and 70s, that was the thing, the hippie trail. It's when the Beatles were hanging out with the Maharashi in India. And people were going from the pudding shop in Istanbul all across South Asia. And the end of the rainbow was Kathmandu. And that's where Freak Street led to a cafe called Pie and Chai.

And we wanted to do that. And I did it with my buddy. And that was when I was 23 years old. And a lot of kids did it. But what I did was I very diligently wrote a 60,000-word journal only for myself. But every day, I carefully documented what we experienced. And I took a lot of great photographs along the way. And then when I got home from that wonderful trip, which was the best trip of my life, my coming-of-age trip...

The journal and the photographs just got shoved away and I basically forgot about them until COVID and had a chance to get it out and actually read that journal. It's the first time literally that I had opened it. And I realized, whoa, this is like an anthropological dig into the life of a 23-year-old kid named Rick Steves.

And I was so green, so naive, but you could absolutely see what is the subtitle of the On the Hippie Trail book, Istanbul to Kathmandu and the Making of a Travel Writer. I could see in the rough the candid, vivid, unguarded, not necessarily political correct writing that was just capturing my observations with bugs squished onto the pages as I wrote.

It was intimate. It was right there. And it was actually quite compelling reading. And I thought, this is actually historic because 1978 when I did this was the last year you could do the hippie trail. After that, the Shah fell and Ayatollah came on and Iran became a theocracy. The Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan and then embroiled that part of the world in a long war. And you just couldn't do the hippie trail anymore. So not only did I do it,

at the right stage in my life and had a great time doing it, I documented it vividly. And now, with the celebrity I have as a pretty prolific travel writer with 60 guidebooks out covering Europe and the TV show and all that, my publisher thought this would be great to share this look at who Rick Steves is, you know, with the world. And it's so exciting to get on the hippie trail out because...

We can learn from that experience and I hope inspire people to have their on the hippie trail travels even today. Yeah, we're getting so many calls and comments, Rick. Let me go to Bob in Richmond. Hi, Bob, you're on. Hi. Hi, Rick. First of all, thank you very much for the work that you've been doing. And I'm interested now to go back and take a look at your hippie trail. I was in a VW microbus crossing from New Jersey to California at roughly that time, but didn't get across there.

I mostly wanted to ask you that in times like this, given our country's current unfortunate posture towards other cultures and travel, et cetera,

Do you have a recommendation for countries that might benefit particularly from more tourism or more support, you know, and more of a cultural exchange per se? I don't know. I'm not trying to put you on the spot as some kind of sudden cultural ambassador for the other rest of us, but maybe you have some recommendations of what places would welcome us in particular at the moment.

Thank you, Bob. That's a very good question. And I think it's more important than ever that Americans keep traveling. I've got a T-shirt I wear that just says, keep on traveling. That's how I close all my shows. And where would we have the greatest impact in our travels? Anytime we travel to distant lands, we have people-to-people connections. And that makes it tougher when we go home for their propaganda to demonize us. And when we get home, it makes it tougher for our propaganda to demonize them.

I find my most productive traveling is when I go to places that my government says I really shouldn't go. Back in the old days, it was Nicaragua, you know, during the Sandinistas and the Condras. Recently, it's been Cuba, it's been Palestine, it's been Iran. I wouldn't travel any place that was dangerous. You know, you wouldn't go to Iran right now, but things ebb and flow. But if we get out of our comfort zone,

And recognize that culture shock is a constructive thing. It's the growing pains of a broadening perspective. It just needs to be curated. And that's what I do. And if we recognize that we can have La La Land travel or we can have reality travel, I like to say that you've got to choose between Managua and

Mazatlan. Of course, Mazatlan is La La Land and Managua is reality. We joke in my office that our mission is to equip and inspire Americans to venture beyond Orlando. So venture beyond Orlando in your travels. Recognize that what carbonates the travel experience is meeting people, real people, not cultural cliches on stage for tourists, but just the average person that wants to share a drink with you in a coffee shop. And then take advantage of that to

to get out of your comfort zone. I like to be a cultural chameleon. I like to morph with the cultures. I will eat and drink what people are eating and drinking in each culture, and I change with each border. And I just love to realize that when we get out and travel,

We become friends with the world. So, Bob, I hope that you can be inspired to get out there, whether you got your VW with you or not, and have some of those experiences. Today, it's a time when there's a lot of fear being bandied about in our society, and fear is what keeps us in place. And the flip side of fear is understanding, and I think we gain understanding when we travel.

Well, Chris writes, I enjoy your thoughtful perspective on how the historical context shapes the current state of many of your travel destinations. Have there ever been destinations where you felt conflicted with how to present the values or state of their citizens compared with how their respective tourism departments present their country?

Oh, yeah. Tourism, Chris, it's a big industry. And when I come into a country, their tourism department wants me to highlight the latest resort or the latest casino or the latest five-star hotel or the latest golf course. And they're very surprised when I say, no, I'd rather see your heroin maintenance clinic. Yeah.

Because there's some very interesting heroin maintenance clinics in Switzerland and Germany. How are they dealing with the same problems that we're dealing with? So, you know, you have to take it upon yourself to have those experiences. But you can certainly do that. When you travel these days, you know, the more you plan, I think, the better trip you're going to have and the more context you bring with you.

understanding the more you get out your sightseeing a little understanding of wine and you can better enjoy your wine tasting in Italy and France a little better understanding of the art and you can better enjoy your times in the museums and the galleries in Europe I just produced a six-hour series on the art of Europe that's if you're a member of KQED you can get right there and see it anytime you like

on the PBS Passport app. Bring understanding with you to your sightseeing and you'll get more out of it. Rick, when do you come upon an incredible place but don't write it up? What are your criteria?

I do not. Once in a blue moon, I find a place that I really like, but I don't think can handle the tourism. And some places are just too fragile and you can't put it in a book and have it be stampeded by your readers or you'll ruin it. And occasionally I find a place that just doesn't want American tourists. You know, I bump into a restaurant that is so...

and local, and they just don't want a bunch of tourists in there. I can appreciate that and respect that. I was in Blackpool in England, which I'm fascinated. It's the working class resort. It's where workers go when they can't afford to go to Spain to get a break from their nine to five dreary existence in Northern England. They go to Blackpool and they have this ability to lay on the beach in Blackpool and imagine sunny and warm. And it's kind of a rough edge to

community there in some ways. And I get a sense from some people in Blackpool that they'd rather not have Americans there. I'm not, you know, I kind of take that into consideration. But these days, we do hear about news reports about different places in Europe that are suffering from overcrowding. And they are not

anti-tourism, they're anti-bad tourism, but they still appreciate the good tourism. And what's that? Well, you know, thousands of people converging on a town for the day off of a cruise ship, not spending much money and going back to the cruise ship for their dinner and to spend the night,

That's bad tourism. That just clogs the streets and leaves a lot of garbage and not leaving much money. Good tourism is individuals coming into town, getting a nice dinner in a local restaurant, staying in a small family-run hotel, spending money in a way that patronizes local mom and pops instead of big corporate ventures, and people that have a curiosity and a respect for the culture and want to learn.

Those kind of travelers are more than welcome. They need to know how to visit a place like Bruges or Amsterdam or Venice or Rome or Barcelona without being swamped by the crowds, and that can be done.

And one thing that's very important in my work when I'm writing my Europe guide books or making my TV shows or taking our bus tours around Europe is to go to those places that are very famous and on everybody's list, but do it in a way where you're not, you know, drowning in tourist crowds. And that's mostly travel.

doing going when other people aren't there i've got a photograph of the acropolis uh the parthenon on top of the acropolis and in athens and i whenever i show that in my lectures i say this this photograph has a soundtrack in my mind when i look at this i can hear the watchman's whistle blowing and he's saying mister we're closing it's time for you to leave goodbye thank you for coming well that's because i'm always on the acropolis when i'm in athens

during the last couple hours of the day from five to seven o'clock or whatever and when i'm walking in the exit lane is jam-packed with people are heading back to the cruise ship and i'm coming in there at the end of the day and i literally have the acropolis all to myself for an hour and a half that's just common sense when you're traveling that's just choosing to go to a crowded place when the cruise travelers aren't there

A few more comments. Noelle on Discord writes, if Congress has anti-public media hearings, I nominate Rick Steves to take up the mantle of Mr. Rogers in defending PBS and NPR. Ron writes, I started traveling at age 18, working and traveling abroad and have done so now into my mid-70s. It's the most important and impactful thing I've done in my life. Get out of the U.S. and get a better understanding of your fellow humans. Patrick writes, I agree with most of Rick's points, but not with his implication that you must leave the country to broaden your horizons. Consider that

That those that live in the metaphoric middle of the country could benefit from being visited by a coast dweller and vice versa, just as Rick did in Iran. To fix our problems here at home, we need to talk to each other face to face and keep in mind that the majority of Americans cannot afford to travel abroad. Your thoughts on that, Rick?

You know, that is so right. Of course, my beat is Europe, and I'm making guidebooks and trying to encourage people to go to Europe. But you can have the same valuable travel experiences in the United States, and it doesn't need to cost anywhere near what it costs to go to Europe. And I've come to a realization these days that there's a lot of walls on this planet. They can be physical walls or they can be metaphorical walls.

And you don't know that wall if you have not talked to people on both sides of the wall. This is called dual narrative travel. And of course, when you go to the Holy Land, you've got to talk to Jews and you've got to talk to Palestinians to understand what that wall's all about. When you go to Belfast and they've got a wall there, you've got to talk to people in the Protestant community and talk to people in the Catholic community. And if you're trying to sort out what's the heck's going on in our country, we have a big metaphorical wall too, don't we? Red states and blue states, right?

We got to talk to people on both sides of that wall and learn from each other and gain empathy for what is the reality of the people that we don't understand. That's a beautiful thing about travel. But, well, Rick, I want to ask you this. You know, one of the things that I have learned

after traveling abroad is that I have a whole new perspective on my own country as a result of that. It's almost like, yes, I'm learning a lot about people who live in other places, but it turns out that I often return with a lot more insight or at least a new lens with which to look at my own country. So true. And Mina, that's a big point in my book called Travel as a Political Act. And it's something that undergirds a lot of my travels because

We learn from our home counterintuitively by leaving it and looking at it from a distance. And...

You know, part of the pillars of the Muslim faith is to make a pilgrimage. And what's the real reason Muhammad wanted everybody to hike all the way to Mecca once in their life? Well, I think it was because of the value of travel, to get out of your homeland and be able to see things from a different perspective. And I find that is so true to this day. And I love the idea that I learned about my reality by leaving it and looking at it from a distance. And I love that quote by Muhammad.

who 1400 years ago said, "Don't tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you've traveled." But there's two kinds of travel these days. And there are powerful forces in our society that would find it really convenient and more profitable if we're all just dumbed down. And that means La La Land travel. Go back to Disney World again and again and again. There are people that inspire us to get out and get out of our comfort zone and learn and be engaged.

Public broadcasting is a good metaphor for that. You know, public broadcasting is reality travel. And it takes... Sorry to interrupt you there, Rick, but I think we're coming right up on a break. So... All right. All right.

You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Rick Steves, a trusted source for many Americans traveling abroad, has a new book about backpacking along the hippie trail from Istanbul to Kathmandu in 1978, a trip that made him want to help others experience life-altering travel. You can see Rick in person Saturday, March 15th at Dominican University in San Rafael or Sunday, March 16th at Rio Theater in Santa Cruz, presented by Bookshop.com.

Santa Cruz, but you are listeners are also talking with Rick right now. Your questions for Rick, your stories for Rick, uh,

Maybe examples of taking a trip based on Rick Steves' advice or a lesson, a life-changing lesson you learned from traveling. Lots of calls and comments. Let me go to Pedro in Napa. Hi, Pedro. Thanks for waiting. Firstly, I wish to thank Mr. Steves for all the wonderful work that you do and truly inspiring. And I really want to briefly just echo that I profoundly agree and appreciate

just have experienced firsthand a lot of your travel philosophy. And as a brief example, a little over a year ago, my partner and I completed the Camino de Santiago, the entire trip, not just the last five days. And I'm not particularly religious, but I did approach it as a pilgrimage. And these distinctions in the type of traveler really

really are exemplified on this trip. It's a trip that despite it being over a little over a year ago, I think about it still on a daily basis. Travel can be life-changing. It really is an incredible thing. And it's an interesting case study because

On this walk, if you walk the last 100 kilometers, you qualify for what they call a Compostela, which is basically a little certificate that you completed the walk. And so there's a very palpable change in the type of traveler from that point onwards. And you start seeing sort of pilgrims and you start seeing more tourists and travelers.

you know to each her own but it definitely you you can appreciate these these different types of travelers it it's um i i truly believe in expanding our horizons it does i can i can testify that it's it does make you reflect about your your home better get a different perspective on your on your routine life yeah and

Well, Pedro, I'm so glad you had such an incredible time on that trip and that what Rick is saying really resonates with you. Sharik writes, one day I would love to see Iran. Their history and culture is marvelous. We have unfortunately maligned their relationship starting way back in the 1950s to where we are now. However, I really appreciated your episode on Iran. You brought out the common humanity, the vast fine culture, the common goals and virtues at an individual level. Iran is on my list now.

to see. You know, listening to Pedro, hearing Sharik say these things, I wanted to ask you actually, Rick, about the traveler's mindset in a different context, because you've actually called the process of receiving a prostate cancer diagnosis and treating it as something that you've tried to approach with a traveler's mindset. What did you mean by that?

Well, yeah, six months ago I was diagnosed with prostate cancer and I had a PSA number through the ceiling. I mean, it was just really serious.

And boy, that's kind of a jolt. And I thought, I'm going to tackle this with the same positive attitude, curiosity, and the constructiveness, and the joy, and the thankfulness that I take on the road with me. And it was a foreign country, a hospital. I'd never spent a night in a hospital. I didn't speak the language. There were the locals there, you know? And, you know, I remember going through the hallways of the hospital, and I could have felt bad for myself, but I realized...

Many people in that hallway wished they had my problem. I was kind of fortunate to have the kind of cancer I had. And thank God I was able to take advantage of beautiful modern technology that we've developed in our country thanks to government investments in medical technology, by the way. And I went to the hospital and I had my prostate taken out with modern robotic technology.

laparoscopic surgery. And two months later, I have my blood test. One month later, I got another blood test. And now I'm cancer free. And I'm just so thankful for that. And I'm so tuned in to the fragility of life and the blessing of life and the wonder of modern technology. And I looked at it like a journey. It was very interesting to me that the hospital

and the whole medical industry was the ship that I was sailing on to get through this storm. The captain was my surgeon. And the sails were filled by the prayers and the good wishes and the warm thoughts that were sent to me by so many caring people, whether they were loved ones and friends or people I didn't even know who heard about it, that those prayers and warm feelings took on a tangibility that

filled the sails and powered my boat through that storm. And now I'm in the open sea and I'm still sailing. And there'll be storms ahead, but I'm just so thankful and feeling so good about it. And part of that is when you travel, you're very thoughtful about life. When Pedro's on that Camino, he's alone with his thoughts. And whether he's a religious person or not, it's a very, very constructive way to broaden our perspective. I just love that. Yeah. I feel like I've experienced...

maybe some version of what you call traveler's mindset after taking a trip abroad two years ago. And, you know, it's just this feeling of, wow, there's so much to explore, even in my own state, right, of California, and to just be really adventurous and open to discovery and so on, right? But I've also noticed that I have a really, I've struggled to maintain it. Like I struggled to keep it. And I wondered if you've,

figured out ways to do that. Or if you think a traveler's mindset is more of like a personality thing.

To keep the wonder? Yeah, to keep it. You know, it sort of has faded, unfortunately for me. Well, that's an interesting thing for me because I'm tuned into that challenge because this is my life. I spend three months a year in Europe. I'm not that well-traveled because for 30 years I've spent almost all my travel time in Europe working on my guidebooks and working on my tours and working on my TV shows. That's my mission, to be Mr. Europe for American travelers.

and what I am constantly thankful for and astounded by is how I can never exhaust Europe of the thrills that it has to offer. Now, if I was focusing on Southeast Asia or Latin America or whatever, it would be the same sort of thing, but my thing is Europe. And, um,

Like right now, I'm really into, well, just last year, I filmed a gourmet barge trip in Burgundy. Well, that's a new kind of travel. I didn't even know it was a thing until a couple of years ago. And we'll have a great TV show coming up on KQED about going on an industrial-age barge that's turned into a boutique hotel with a crew of three, the captain, the first mate, and a chef, and eating the best of French food while cruising through Burgundy. That's a beautiful vacation.

Another thing I'm into these days is venerable long distance trails. These are caminos that we were just talking about a little bit, you know, pilgrimage trips if you want to, but they're not on the well-worn traditional pilgrimage track to Santiago. These are just venerable trails that people have enjoyed for generations. I hiked around Mount Blanc. It's a hundred mile trip.

You do it in 10 days. I cherry-picked just the best of it and did 60 miles in seven days, staying in wonderful mountain hotels each night and every day hiking up a ridge and into the next valley with a Sherpa service that moved my bags ahead to meet me. And I had a time in my life

there and I'm going to do it again this summer with my girlfriend and we're going to be hiking similarly in the Dolomites for a week but this is a new kind of travel that I had never done before the point is in my experience you can never exhaust Europe of what it has to offer and that's a blessing a lot of people want to see it all on one trip and they're frustrated by what they can't see and

I'm glad I've always got an excuse to go back to London and always got an excuse to go back to Istanbul and always got another excuse to hike in the Alps. So that's just a beautiful thing about travel, and it can be a way of life. Your hippie trail trip served as the inspiration for your career to end being a piano teacher, to open up basically a travel shop of sorts. And I imagine, you know,

A lot of people would think, well, of course, I mean, I remember as a kid thinking the best job in the world would be to be a travel writer. But how hard was it actually for you to choose the life of, you know, trying to help others have life altering trips over being a piano teacher?

Well, I had to make a choice. I loved being a piano teacher. But the last sentence of my On the Hippie Trail book is, after I came home, I let my piano students go, turned my recital hall into a lecture hall, and started a small travel business. And since then, you know, I'm an entrepreneur. I love to work hard. I'm very focused. I'm mission-driven. I measure profit not by how much money is in the bank at the end of the year, but by how many trips I have impacted. And

That's why, you know, having a TV show about Iran or about the Holy Land or about fascism to be airing on KQED and to be airing on hundreds of TV stations all over the country is very profitable for me because I'm helping people broaden their perspectives through vicarious travel thanks to quality media. This is what powers me. If you're mission-driven...

If you're mission-driven, I think it's just a real blessing because it makes your hard work more rewarding. I guess what I'm wondering is if there had ever been moments when you wished you chose piano teaching. No. There's been moments where I...

when I wish there was two of me and one of them would be a piano teacher. When I did quit teaching and gave all my students away, I kept my favorite teaching method books for my two children so that I could help them learn that. And it was one of my great joys when I was in a very workaholic stage was to come home from work and to be their piano teacher. And I still have a

grand piano just around the corner here in my what other people use as a dining room. So, you know, love of music is still there. But for me, you got to make choices and you want to have an impact on the world. You want to do something that's gratifying. And my mission, as we've talked about, is to inspire and equip Americans to get out there and become friends with the world. And my beat is Europe. I think you got to have a focus on

I've got technology beyond my wildest dreams to amplify my teaching and 100 great colleagues at my company. And we're having the time of our lives. And right now, with what's going on in our country, the value of our work is more important than ever before. We need to understand that if we want to be safe, we don't need more walls. We need more bridges. And we've got to play ball with the rest of the world. We've got to be at the table with the family of nations providing American leadership overseas,

or we're going to be hiding behind our wall, and the world's going to go into a place that is not in true alignment with what real American values are. Let me remind listeners, you are listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Let me go to Ellen in Oakland. Hi, Ellen, you're on.

Hi, thank you very much. Rick, I'm so excited. And Mina, thank you for having him on. I'm so excited about this because I've considered myself a lifelong traveler, both personally and professionally. I'm passionate about doing what you're talking about is not only experiencing places myself, but finding ways to encourage people

and challenge other people to dive deeply into other cultures, getting out of their comfort zone and experiencing the world. It started when I was very young and went to France with a school class. And then I ended up after college, just buying a one-way ticket and going to Europe and getting a job as an ESL teacher and ended up

living in Europe, in France and Switzerland and Germany for three years. And as a result of that, I came back and I've always worked in bilingual schools and became a tour guide. And it led to me working a cultural arm of the State Department here where I took, for many years, I took

young professionals from many different developing countries around the United States. And it was not political. It was all how to dive into and understand American culture and business. And the whole purpose was citizen diplomacy. So I wanted to bring up

two things. One, that idea of citizen diplomacy, whether we're traveling alone or we're welcoming people here and helping bridge cultures is so important. And the other thing is it led me to becoming multilingual. I speak four languages and three of them I learned by just...

being in a country and picking up the language and then living there and people are always saying to me, but you're not an American, Ellen, you speak other languages. Oh, Ellen, that's amazing that you learned four languages as a result of this. Well, Diane is wondering, and let me remind listeners, you are listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. Diane writes, lovely listening to Rick and his fabulous perspective. How about some tips on how to meet people and get to know them a bit when you don't know the language and you don't have a guide? How do you approach people?

Well, I don't speak the languages and like I wish I did. Ellen is very wise to know those languages. But I love Ellen's idea about citizen diplomacy and how important it is for us to get out there because there's a lot of confusion about America. And we are more than who's in the White House right now. We are America and people need to know that we've got this spirit where we can reach out and engage with the rest of the world.

um as far as uh i'm sorry what was diana's question again it was just how do you approach somebody what do you do to just oh that's right yeah yeah well that's what you know how many people you meet rather than how many cultural cliches you see on stage with a bunch of tourists and folding chairs in the audience

How many real people do you meet is really the mark of a good traveler. And that takes a little bit of know-how. Again, my beat is Europe, so I've got tips for Europe. But if you go to a pub in England, a pub is, that's short for public house. It's the community living room where people get together. And if you sit at a table, they'll give you your privacy. But if you sit at the bar, that's just like saying, hey, I'm new in town and I'd love to have somebody to talk to. And you'll have friends that way. What I like to do is...

I like to go to a university town and know where the students go for a drink before dinner. And it's called the Aperitivo. And I'll buy three or four students a spritz, and all of a sudden I'm the most popular kid on the block, and I'm their window on America, and they're my window on Italy, and we have a great time to meet each other. You don't need to be a famous travel writer to do that. You just need to go to the piazza at the...

You've got lots of people trying to reach you. You just need to go to the piazza at the right time of day and buy somebody a drink and have a good time. So these are the golden moments in your travels, and we can do that, but we have to make a point to meet the people. And, you know, if somebody picks up this book, On the Hippie Trail, it's 250 pages of exactly that, meeting people who are going to sit down and say, hey, I'm going to

You eat with your fingers. Or you eat with a spoon and fork. I eat with my fingers. You know, a third of the planet eats with spoons and forks. A third of the planet eats with chopsticks. And a third of the planet eats with their fingers like I do. And we're all civilized just the same. That's the exact quote that I learned in 1978. We're all civilized just the same from a man...

in Afghanistan, that can stick with you. You are changed forever when you come home with that appreciation that there's people who have a drawer full of spoons and forks, but they choose to eat with their fingers because that's what God gave us these fingers for. We don't need to do it, but we can respect what we do. Sorry to interrupt you, but we've gotten a few questions along these lines, and I'd just love to get your final thought. Things like what Megan's writing, how does Rick reconcile widespread or frequent air travel with its impact on carbon emissions in the climate?

Well, at my website, ricksteves.com, I've got a climate page, and it explains our self-imposed carbon tax. I believe in science, and science tells us that we do have climate change. Carbon makes it worse. When we fly, we put carbon into the air. It costs $30 for an American to smartly invest in mitigation to negate that climate, that you create a much good as you create bad, and it zeroes out.

It's nothing to brag about, but that's borderline ethics if you're traveling. I take 30,000 people on my tours every year on my Rick Steves bus tours. I make too much money if I don't pay for the carbon. We pay a million dollars a year invested in...

climate smart technology in the developing world. That's $30 per person times 30,000, 900,000, rounded up to a million. I've got 10 organizations in the developing world that help farmers do their work using climate smart agriculture technology and contribute less to climate change to zero out our carbon. We can mitigate our carbon. I don't want to be flight shamed out of my travels,

But I want to make sure I minimize my carbon footprint, I pay for it as I go, and also that I travel in a way that broadens my perspective so that when I come home as a citizen of this rich and powerful nation, I will go into the voting booth and vote for somebody who believes in the world working together and being together. And that's good travel. Rick Steves, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for having me and happy travels.

And also my thanks to our team, which includes Mark Nieto, Susie Britton, Caroline Smith, and Danny Bringer. You've been listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim.