What Has Martha Stewart Meant to You?
57:44 Share

From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Arthi Shahani in for Mina Kim. Coming up on Forum, Martha Stewart has had a wild ride from model to stockbroker to food and lifestyle mega celebrity. At the height of her game, she became America's first female self-made billionaire when her media empire went public. But then she served prison time for lying to prosecutors about a stock trade.

RJ Cutler got unprecedented access to Stewart for his documentary called Martha, streaming on Netflix. We'll talk to Cutler about how he got close to a reluctant source and what he learned from Stewart about how power works. That's next after this news.

This is Forum. I'm Arati Shahani in for Mina Kim. A few weeks ago, my text threads were blowing up because it seemed every other woman in my life was watching the documentary Martha about the triumphs and travails of America's first woman to be a self-made billionaire. The one and only Martha Stewart.

Here to talk about the stock that's hit such a nerve is its director and producer, a man, R.J. Cutler. Emmy award-winning and Oscar-nominated filmmaker, he's made The War Room, A Perfect Candidate, Billie Eilish, The World's A Little Blurry, Belushi, and most recently, Elton John, Never Too Late. R.J., welcome to Forum.

Thanks so much for having me. It's great to have you. And I have to admit, your oeuvre astounds and exhausts me. Does it exhaust you? Uh-huh.

No, no. I'm grateful. I'm grateful. A lot of fascinating people. I've had the good fortune to tell their stories and to collaborate with them. And, you know, I love those films you just mentioned. Yeah, I do too. RJ, give us the setup for your relationship with Martha Stewart. She crashed your dinner?

She did. She did. My wife and I were having dinner with a friend out in Montauk a few summers ago, and the friend called and said that Martha Stewart would like to join us. And who says no to that? And that's just the kind of thing that happens to you.

And no, it doesn't happen. It really doesn't. Truly Uli. But in this case, it did. And we said, sure, sounds great. And we all went out to dinner and I was seated next to Martha and had a fascinating evening, as you can imagine. And she told me things about her. I didn't know a whole lot about her, to be honest, before the dinner, but

She told me about her childhood. She told me about her family. She told me about her relationship with her dad, her early career as a model, her early career on Wall Street. We really talked mostly about early life and background just because it was so fascinating. And to be honest, it was in a way counterintuitive. It was not what I wanted.

Would have imagined. Right. That's exactly what I wanted to ask you is what did she mean to you before you ever met? What would you have imagined? She didn't. I mean, she meant something to me as a cultural icon, as a figure who I knew was important.

I knew the outlines of her story. I was fascinated by her, um, and, and her success, but I wasn't a viewer of her show or a subscriber to her magazines. Um, I remember thinking when she went, uh, to prison and, and Mark Burnett announced that he was going to do a number of shows with her that yet again, there was Mark being, you know, his incredibly savvy self and, and, um,

uh partnering with somebody who who i thought you know would there was no question that there was more to come from martha right and that was that was as from my perspective as a viewer uh you know as as an observer of the culture but i wasn't from martha wasn't really in my kind of media uh

She didn't mean much to you beyond the name. Yeah, except I was aware of her prominence and her incredible success. I mean, as you know, and as the film demonstrates, there was a moment where she was everywhere. I mean, there were, you know, and she was a visionary, but I didn't know those things. And then at dinner, I became fascinated. And what I...

I remember having the sense of and saying to her was that hers was a story of American womanhood over the, you know, last few decades of the 20th century in the first decades of the of the 21st. And and and so, you know, it's an immigrant story. And I did hear you saying that about American womanhood. And, you know, that means a lot to me. And I wonder what specifically did that mean to you?

It compelled me. It meant that there was a story here to be told. The role that powerful, visionary women play in business and culture in our society and in our history is often fraught.

often complicated, often filled with conflict, and often a story that reveals a lot about who we are as a people. And this was very... And so it's often very interesting to me. And in this...

I'm sorry, finish the thought and then I'll tell you. Yeah. So that's what it meant to me and why I left the dinner thinking, oh, maybe there's a project to work on together here and let's continue the conversation. Right. You know, on this point that you're making, yeah.

Part of my circle is women who lead in business, female founders of for-profits and nonprofits both. And I think that it's been pointed out in various ways. Who is the female Steve Jobs? Who is the person who gets to be a complicated figure and high profile and revealed? And for a while, the name compared to Steve Jobs, at least in Silicon Valley, was Elizabeth Holmes, who had a horrific downfall, rightfully. Right.

And so it's interesting to watch your work in raising and revisiting Martha's life. I have to say, you've made many documentaries. You've just released one on Elton John that we're going to discuss later in the show.

With Martha, you depict a woman who is not touchy-feely. She's allergic to being self-aware. I want to listen to my absolute favorite lines in your doc. It's when you ask her if she's had many relationships in which she talks about her feelings. Have you had any relationships where you talk about your feelings? No, and that's probably why I haven't had very many personal relationships with men, for example, because I...

I couldn't care less. I don't know what the real reason is. It doesn't interest me so much to know, you know, "Oh, Charles, how do you feel this second?" I don't care, actually. I do care about, "Charles, what are you doing? What are you thinking about?" So I sort of gravitate towards people who are doing things all the time.

And I think more about everything that I'm doing, things that I'm working on, things that I'd like to work on, things that I'd like to accomplish. That's where I'm best. Your reaction to that, that moment? Oh, it's very revealing. It's very honest and it's very self-aware. And as you know from watching the film, Martha is in great,

both extremely revealing and cast in this narrative as an unreliable narrator, because she is a bit of an unreliable narrator. But that's a moment of great clarity and insight for which I'm grateful. I'm interested in your mentioning Steve Jobs, because there are a lot of...

Jobsian qualities that Martha has. First of all, this description just now, the fact that you, you know,

You mentioned Steve Jobs. You didn't talk about him as not being particularly touchy-feely, but we all know that Steve Jobs was particularly not touchy-feely. Imperfect, had edges. Right. But it's not where we lead with him, right? Or if we do, it's not critical. Yeah.

That's right. And so but with a woman, of course, it's the question of her being a nurturing figure, the question of her being emotionally accessible is, you know, in a way, one of the things you go to early on as a visionary. Right.

You know, Martha Stewart, not unlike Steve Jobs, had a lot of amazing ideas that that that time has demonstrated her vision for. She understood the power of synergy before anybody did. She understood the power of the personal brand long before it was it was commonplace. There's so many things like that. But.

But there was always somebody saying to her, that's not the way we do it. And I think of Steve Jobs saying, you know, being told that's not what they want. And Steve Jobs saying, they don't know what they want. I'll tell them what they want. And Martha was the same way.

And it was always men, of course, who were standing in her way saying, that's not what the people want. The people don't want their- Let me explain Housewives to you. Exactly. And Arthur Cutler, let me ask you something. I was just so curious about this watching. I felt like I was getting to know Martha Stewart in a way that I had no idea I wanted to, but I did. But I also felt the walls all around her. And so I was just curious to ask you, do you feel you managed to,

get close to her to gain her trust or was that not a necessary part of this exercise?

No, it's an absolutely critical part of the exercise. And not exercise, it's the work that we do. Trust is pretty much all that I have to work with. And the earning of the trust is the central dynamic between me as the filmmaker and those other filmmakers who work on the project.

you know, the person holding the camera, the person holding the microphone, the producing partners and the subject. And every person you mentioned when you were talking about films that I've made, I have, has trusted me to tell their story, including Martha Stewart. And I would say, you know, now that the kind of

hubbub of the release and it having been seen, as you mentioned, by tens of millions of people on Netflix. I mean, I saw a recent number and we were over 30 million viewers have seen this movie. And released at the same time of the U.S. presidential election. I mean, it was amazing how zeitgeist-y it was. Yes, it was. Absolutely. We... It's a...

And just a fascinating moment in terms of in terms of who she is and and and what the trust was. And now that I have a little bit of perspective from it, I can say she trusted me so much that as she saw what that trust yielded, it was almost too much for her to to bear. It was, you know, and her trust fall than she's used to.

Exactly, exactly. And God bless her. You know, I am, I think it took incredible courage for someone who has those walls. That's who she is. And for someone who is not used to and has never really given control to someone else of her narrative. Mm-hmm.

to experience that. And so, you know, we saw a certain amount of lashing out until Martha came to understand. We will get back to that, what was happening on the screen. Then she came to understand how much people responded to it, to her, how much the movie really revealed her. And she, you know, today, if you were to ask her, she would tell you how grateful she is for it. We are with R.J. Cutler.

Please email your comments and questions to forum at kqed.org. We're talking about Martha, the documentary by R.J. Cutler. Lots of comments already coming in. Support for Forum comes from Broadway SF and Some Like It Hot, a new musical direct from Broadway from Tony Award-winning director Casey Nicholaw. Set in Chicago during Prohibition, Some Like It Hot tells the story of two musicians forced to flee the Windy City after witnessing a mob hit.

Featuring Tony-winning choreography and an electrifying score, Some Like It Hot plays the Orpheum Theatre for three weeks only, January 7th through 26th. Tickets on sale now at broadwaysf.com. Support for Forum comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment.

From wielding the power of the law to protect people's health, preserving magnificent places and wildlife, and advancing clean energy to combat climate change, Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer. Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org.

Welcome back to Forum. I'm Arati Shahani in for me to Kim. I'm talking with award winning documentarian R.J. Cutler about Martha Stewart, diving into what he learned from her about how power works. Listeners have been writing in Beth writes in response to what Martha Stewart has meant to her. Does helping me realize I could never be perfect count? No.

Very edgy take there. Another listener writes on Instagram, Martha Stewart is just some fancy white lady who thought the law did not apply to her. I want to come back to that sentiment in a bit. I have to admit that before watching your documentary, RJ, I had a version of that sentiment. Before going there, though, RJ, listen.

Let's talk about her je ne sais quoi, her genius. A lot of us have tried to pull off a Martha Stewart in our own home, and that's not accidental. She got people to aspire to opulence with ease, and we hear that in her documentary. Can you tell me, RJ, in her 50s, she launched her company, Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia, a media empire. What did she see that other people missed?

What a great question. I think what she saw was slightly in conflict with your description of what she achieved. I'm not sure opulence was the objective. I think that ritual, connection, community...

entertaining as a way of gathering was what she understood, not in her 50s, but through her whole life. And then as a business in her late 30s into her early 40s when she wrote Entertaining and when she...

started her catering, you know, when she started her catering business, when she wrote Entertaining and when she turned it into her magazines and Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia. And what she knew was that the culture was fracturing. What she knew was that we were going back to the land of

because we needed connections to others. And she understood the value of that. And what she knew was that you didn't need to be rich to enjoy that. You didn't need to be rich to have good taste. You didn't need to be rich. This is why opulence is not the word. Taste is.

community is, connection and culture. We're talking about cooking, homemaking, lifestyle, power, influencer Martha Stewart. We're with R.J. Cutler, award-winning documentarian. And we want to invite listeners to please weigh in over here. We're curious to hear, how do you relate to Martha Stewart? Maybe you are a female founder. Maybe you've been inspired by her cooking or entertainment advice. How did she first enter your life?

What reflections do you have on her criminal conviction and the trajectory she's taken since then? What questions do you have for R.J. Cutler about the making of this film or his craft generally? Please email your comments and questions to forum at kqed.org. Find us on Blue Sky, X, Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. We're at KQED Forum. Or give us a call right now. Use that telephone, 866-733-6786. That's 866-733-6786.

866-733-6786. RJ, let's turn to the criminal case that took Martha Stewart down. I could have spent the entire hour on this because it really is a place where your work has forever changed my view on her. As a kid, I remember the headlines about Martha Stewart going to prison, and I thought, good, a rich white person's getting theirs. But you paint a different picture.

Well, I think selective prosecution enters the equation here. And what better a figure to embody that than James Comey, who at the time was running the Southern District of New York, you know, federal prosecution division. Mm-hmm.

And we know James Comey, of course, as the figure who selectively chose to reveal information about his what what what he suggested was an investigation into Hillary Clinton wrongdoing a week before her leave of the week before the election. But we should also know him as the man who chose to indict Hillary.

Martha Stewart. And and in so doing, he chose to indict somebody for lying about a crime that they didn't commit. And and and I want to repeat this because the Internet, if you Google it, insider trading becomes a top result with Martha Stewart. You just said lying about a crime she did not commit. Unpack that.

Well, as James Comey told us when he announced her indictment, there was not the evidence. He did not have the evidence that she committed the crime of insider trading. And as Sam Waxell, who was the person who would have had to give her the information

uh, to, to, that she would have needed to commit insider trading. Cause he ran the company told us multiple times and told 60 minutes, uh, uh, there, there was no insider trading. He did not speak to Martha Stewart before she sold her stocks. Now, did she lie, uh, in that interview with the FBI? Uh,

She said a number of times that she couldn't remember something. Was it untrue that she couldn't remember? I don't know. I wasn't there. There's no transcript. There were only handwritten notes. She wasn't under oath, and yet she was indicted and eventually convicted. Now, she was convicted...

was she convicted of lying? Yes. But she was also convicted of being a bitch as, as the film argues, she was convicted of not having the friends who would stand up for her and say that Martha didn't mean it. Um, she was also convicted of not being able to admit to her own fallibility. And she, in a way she was convicted of not, uh, uh,

of not plea bargaining and getting out of it, which she had the opportunity to do. So this was a confluence not only of certain characteristics of her personality, but certain characteristics of our culture and certain characteristics of our prosecutorial system. And it's not one that smiles upon successful women.

Do you think Martha Stewart would have been taken down as such if she were a man?

I, I, I, who knows, you know, who knows ifs, uh, I don't know. I think that, uh, Comey saw, um, he saw a, a, a, a, you know, fresh bait and, and he went after it and, uh, and, and, and he got her and, and let me tell you, she lost a lot, but we lost a lot. This is one of the points of the film. Uh, the, the, the, as

as a culture, as a society, we lost a tremendous amount because Martha Stewart, as a founder, as a powerful businesswoman, as a billionaire, not so bad, not so bad compared to, look at, you know, we're in an, of all the oligarchs,

If I had to choose one, I wouldn't mind somebody with incredible taste, incredible vision, and with a sense of the power of community and ritual and family and good dining. We have a caller on the line, Bill in San Francisco, who may have a different take. Bill.

Hi, my name's Bill, and I've had two really positive experiences with Martha. In 2006, I was working at Williams-Sonoma, the flagship store on Union Square, and I invited her to host her cookbook signing event for the baking handbook that was the first cookbook she released after getting out of jail.

And she accepted and came, and it turned out to be the largest and most successful personal appearance or book signing event in the history of Williams-Sonoma. And I also got to make lunch for her and her team that day, and they were very gracious and appreciative guests, and they really worked very hard.

And she signed over 700 books in two hours. We had 900 people in line for the event. Huge event. Hugely popular. And then the next year, I was in contact with a friend of hers who saw the photo of a wreath that I had made for her as the invitation to the book signing event.

And they invited me to go on the show and demonstrate how to make wreaths out of fresh, hot chili peppers. That sounds right on brand. Exactly. Thank you so much, Bill. So they flew me to New York and I was on the show. It was great. Oh, wow. Wow. Thank you, Bill, for sharing these stories with us. RJ, any response to this connection that you're hearing about?

It doesn't surprise me. I mean, Martha's audience, listen, this is the power of the personal brand. And as Martha says in the film, and we'll say when you talk to her, she was her audience. She understood that people needed what she was. She fills voids. And she has filled voids every time.

throughout her career, throughout her life, this is what she does. This, this is her brand. Yes, exactly. And, um, you know, I, she was recently on, uh, um, uh, a pivot, uh, uh, with, with, uh, with Kara Swisher and Kara and, and, and the idea of Martha as a, uh,

as a model for AI came up and I thought, well, what, what, what better an idea than to be able to, to, to type into your, you know, your prompt, how do I, how do I cook a beef stew and, and get Martha Stewart's advice on that or better yet to be able to put up, upload a photograph of your living room and ask how it might be a better designed. I mean, it,

I hope she does it. I hope that we have her wisdom and her insights forever. You're endorsing this project. I am. A listener writes, my mom loved Martha Stewart. I think because my mom had good taste. She didn't have a lot of money or resources, but the way she styled our home when I was a kid was beautiful and tasteful. I do aspire to have a lifestyle that includes beautiful food and a beautiful environment to share with family and friends. Thank you for that comment. Yeah.

Yeah, it's not, money has nothing to do with it. I mean, Martha Stewart, this is the other thing she revolutionized. She revolutionized retail. I mean, it's now commonplace for these large stores, these large chains to have quality goods that are associated with prominent figures. The entire culture is influencers for crying out loud. From the OG they learn.

We have a caller on the line, Chris from Oakland, who does have a different take. We're going to hear from Chris now.

Yeah, you're totally ignoring the fact that she mistreated her employees. She hired undocumented people and did all that. I mean, to me, if you're looking at somebody's character, you don't look at how they treat their social equals or superiors. You look at how they treat people who are their social or below them on the social. Yeah.

scale. Ask how they treat the janitor, not how they treat the CEO. Well, we certainly, yes, I couldn't personally agree with you more. I don't know about the point of undocumented employees, and I'm sure there's

If you say so, there's evidence, but I'm also sure that she's not alone in that business practice. But or I assume she's not alone in that. She's not. I mean, that's documented. Thank you very much. But but, yeah, you know, we get into that in the film. I don't know if you if the caller seen the film, but but we certainly agree.

that is part of the conflict or the anger, the unwillingness to embrace any imperfection in, you know, which of course we connect to her father and you see why in the film, why we connect that. And it is an issue. And, but I wonder, I can't help but wonder are men who are not particularly kind to their

are extremely exacting. Let's put it that way. Our men who were extremely exacting, who were bosses, held to the same standard that women who were extremely exacting to their employees are held. And I am...

And it is you won't be surprised that I think they aren't. No, you've made that very clear with an actual person to study. Right. That's what I think is the real contribution of Martha is that the behaviors she exhibits that you capture quite vividly, a lot of it's not flattering. Right.

but it's real, right? And then how do you feel about it? Callers, we're talking about Marcus Stewart. And she stands by it, right? She stands by it. Right. She says, yes, I'm a perfectionist. I plead guilty. And yes, if you design a teacup that I can't put my finger in, I'm going to tell you you're an idiot. She stands by it and she spends it. She spends it all. Yes, she does. And also she will, you know,

She has a commitment to the truth as she sees it. And as your previous caller pointed out, she is surrounded by people who have been working with her for decades. Right. Because so it's complicated. There's a complexity here. But we want the question asked first.

Martha stands for... This is a film. It's not just the story of Martha Stewart. This is something you talk about the larger question of documentary filmmaking. There are larger issues at play here. There are larger themes at play here. Let's go back to your intention here. I want to ask. You said to her at that first dinner that she captures something important about American womanhood.

What exactly did you capture about American womanhood in that documentary? Well, I think there's a tremendous... There are questions to be asked. How our culture and society and business world respond to powerful visionary women. And where...

Where does somebody like Martha Stewart come out when you put her in full force, unwilling to to to get knocked down without getting back up again with great vision, focused on the future at all times, unapologetic in her perfectionism to this day? What what who who?

who do they become and what do we make of them and how do we interact with them? And that is, those are all questions that are asked in this film and a really, I think, um, you know, compelling way because of who she is. It's, uh, you know, the reason, uh,

Aristotle didn't make up the three-act structure. It's great insight into the way not only storytelling works, but human behavior works. And Martha Stewart is a, you know, she triumphs, she gets knocked down, she finds a way to triumph again with lessons learned and with wisdom gained. And that's what you see in this film.

Listeners, we're talking about Martha Stewart. You can email your comments and questions to forum at kqed.org. Find us at Blue Sky, X, Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. We're at KQED Forum. Or give us a call, 866-733-6786. RJ, I'm curious. Do you think that...

There's been a very stark difference between how people your audience has taken in the film Have you seen a gender divide a class divide anything like that or do you think that there's a more universal response? Well, I've been you know, it's mostly anecdotal of course, but but but there's a lot of anecdotes on this film I people tell me that

Mothers tell me that their daughters called them to tell them to watch the film. Daughters tell me that their mothers called them to tell them to watch the film. I am very struck by the millions of views of TikTok postings, the thousands of TikTok postings and the millions of views and the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of comments

and likes recorded on TikTok, which suggests a younger audience. We have seen some numbers coming out of Netflix and certainly viewership, as I mentioned before, is in the tens of millions. So that's a big audience. A lot of collective cashless there. We're talking with RJ Cutler about Martha and his other documentaries. This is Forum, back after the break.

Support for Forum comes from Broadway SF and Some Like It Hot, a new musical direct from Broadway from Tony Award-winning director Casey Nicholaw. Set in Chicago during Prohibition, Some Like It Hot tells the story of two musicians forced to flee the Windy City after witnessing a mob hit. Featuring Tony-winning choreography and an electrifying score, Some Like It Hot plays the Orpheum Theatre for three weeks only, January 7th through 26th.

Tickets on sale now at broadwaysf.com. Support for Forum comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment. From wielding the power of the law to protect people's health, preserving magnificent places and wildlife, and advancing clean energy to combat climate change, Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer.

Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org. Welcome back to Forum. I'm Arati Shahani in for Mina Kim. Here with me is the renowned filmmaker R.J. Cutler. We've been talking about Martha. We're going to speak about his other documentaries shortly. But first, I actually want to turn to callers who've been waiting patiently to weigh in. We have Amanda from Walnut Creek. Amanda, hi. Hi.

So, thanks for taking my call. Thank you. So, first of all, I have seen the wonderful documentary, and so I wanted to be sure to mention that first. It's probably the best one that I've seen on her, and I feel as though it really gave us some insight on her as a person. I am about to turn 50 in a couple of months, so I grew up with Martha Stewart.

And so for me personally, it was absolutely fascinating to learn about her history, as well as the intimate details of her relationships, her marriage. And that, I think, you know, explains a lot in her.

In terms of and just regarding her as a self-sufficient woman, not necessarily needing a man, I think that those experiences of hers definitely contribute to that. I'm in hospitality.

And so, you know, I've always been impressed with her living the lifestyle. And when you show this in the film, you can really tell that she not only talks the talk, but she really walks the walk. And her lifestyle, I believe, for me personally, is probably what people are most attracted to now.

Because it's real and it's authentic. And I think that it's hard to obviously find that in media personalities these days. And she's so huge and iconic that people often forget there's a person behind the name Martha Stewart. I would, as an example, say perhaps Walt Disney.

You know, so there's these creatives working with chefs. These are tough personalities and they work with certain individuals that can handle that and they create loyalty. So I would definitely argue one of your previous callers.

But she, I'm sure, has been humbled through her experiences through the years. And I bet you anything she treats those janitors quite well these days. I wonder, Archie, do you have any insight into that? Whether her experiences herself, for example, going to prison, being cut down so dramatically, has that affected the way she is, whether prickly or not?

I think that it's complicated, to be honest. You know, I certainly I agree with Amanda that that authenticity is Martha's brand and and she has remained committed to it. And she's a straight talker and she doesn't care.

give an S or an F about what others think. And she's got a thick skin and she's strong. But I think that, you know, I think in the movie means to communicate the complexity of all of it. You know, it's not without a price what she's been through. It's not...

Someone says in the film that her almost preposterous perfection comes with a price, especially if you're a woman. And Martha's has. And so she was in a place, the film clearly tells the story of somebody who was in a place...

And someone even says in the film, you couldn't have found a person who was happier at the moment of her peak success. The first self-made female billionaire, this little girl from Nutley, New Jersey, whose dad couldn't even keep a job, who couldn't put food on the table. She had to grow her own tomatoes. And this is who she became. And she had to believe in herself. When Rupert Murdoch and...

And Cy Newhouse said to her, this doesn't stand a chance. She said, too bad. She said, too bad. I'm going to put my name on it and I'm going to get it right. And you guys are going to be wrong. And look what she did. And then she went public and she changed the world. What it takes to know what people want. She did it all, but then she lost it. Right. She lost it too. Yeah.

And she has come back and she is successful and she generates millions and millions of dollars in business all over the place. And she's got this great partnership with Snoop Dogg and they do great. But it's complicated. There's great complexity there. We're going to hear from Diane in Healdsburg who wants to weigh in on what a previous caller said.

Hi, thank you. This is Diane. For several years from the late 1990s to the early 2000s, I sold... I worked for a home textile company out of South San Francisco and sold Martha Stewart bedding to Kmart Corporation.

During that time, I had several meetings, obviously, at Martha Stewart Living on the media in New York, and I found a completely different scene than what the earlier caller talked about with Martha taking advantage of her employees. Martha was just always bringing up people. She had interns there that you would not expect

to see. Obviously, she hired very great designers and marketing people that were probably college educated, but she also had a group of very young people that were probably going to design school in New York, and she brought them in to allow her team to kind of create something new with them. And she was exacting, when people talk about her being prickly, I think it was...

I always thought more about the product. She would look down on a desk and she would see something and she would be reviewing it and saying, we can make these stitching better. We can hide this corner better. We can make this look better when it gets into someone's home. So it was more about her trying to elevate the product, not denigrate the people that are working on the product. What do you think of that distinction, RJ?

Yeah, you know, tough boss. If the debate is whether Martha Stewart's a tough boss, an exacting boss, sometimes tougher than you might be, whoever you are, sure, the debate's over. Yeah.

You know, and if you want a soft, you know, if you're looking for a different environment, work for a different person is what I have to say. You know, it's not...

It's a shifting mentality. Goodness gracious, the stuff we tolerate from our men. Come on, people. I mean, seriously. And we don't bring them down until they're worthy of being incarcerated for centuries. I mean, don't make me spell it out is what I have to say.

But, you know, as I say, it's all, there's complexity to all of it. But certainly on the question of tough boss, you know, yeah, she's a tough boss.

Tamara writes in, I read Ina Garten's memoir and watched Martha Stewart's documentary in the same 48 hours. They have different styles. What a week. Good taste. Good taste. They have different styles and approaches, but both are powerhouses worthy of respect. Thanks, Tamara, for that. Beverly writes in, when Martha got out of prison, she seemed like a changed woman. She seemed to genuinely care about her fellow inmates and what happened to them. Can you talk about that?

I think that's absolutely true. I think if you were to have spent time with Martha under those circumstances, you would have, you would have, uh, witnessed, um, a person who was going through what we demonstrated. I mean, we have her, the film features her diaries, uh, from prison and you, you understand that she has that dark night of the soul and, and, but she does what Martha does, which is she makes the most of it. I mean, I, I, uh,

I've yet to have an experience with her that didn't involve some learning, that didn't involve her explorers,

And Weltanschauung leading the way. Martha Stewart is a teacher and a student of all things. And this is who she is. So, of course, she was going to go there. She says in the film, one must find a way to learn, to do something, to learn every day, even in prison.

And she did. And you saw that experience and she connected with the other inmates and the connection was genuine. And the emotion that you hear in the film when her fellow inmates speak of her is authentic. So, and, you know, what's,

Would that we all under the same circumstances have had have had as kind of rich in experiences as Martha was able to have at the same time. You know, she likes to say now that she thinks of it as a as a vacation. I think that's a narrative spin, to be honest. I don't think it was a vacation. I don't think she was happy to be there. I think she again, this falls into the area of complexity. You know, the whole.

film lives in and this is what but you know always my favorite things is that it all lives in the gray area that all of our lives live in and what's fascinating to me that you captured many things are true at once it's just that you know she's an interesting character because she's clearly had these traumatic experiences she's experienced it um

But she doesn't want to linger in it. It's not how she survives. And you just really know that. Yeah, she's said to me so many times that she'd never been to therapy. She said to me once, I went to therapy once. Ten minutes into it, I got up and walked out of the room. And as I was leaving, I said to the therapist, don't send me a bill. That's Martha Stewart.

She's not interested in the... But man, she's got it in her. It's not like she's not thinking. It's not like she doesn't have the awareness. It's just that she doesn't... She doesn't...

she pushes it aside. She's moving forward and it's kind of lingering in the background. Now, when we were able to sit together for the many, many, many hours that we sat together and in our conversation and, and given who I am and given who she is, she, she, you, you got, I think extremely revealing, uh, moments, observations, insights, um,

and even rejections from her that are revealing. You know, there are a lot of ways for people to reveal themselves. It's not always by saying, "Let me tell you the truth about me." Sometimes it's by saying, "I'm gonna tell a lie about me." Sometimes it's by saying, "I don't wanna talk about that."

And just sitting there, you know, there's... The silence, the tension there. Humans, yes, yes. Humans are, you know, they're no different in front of the camera. They reveal themselves in all ways. You're listening to Forum. I'm Arati Shahani in for Mina Kim. RJ Cutler, on that point, you know, I was curious...

Did you expect her to bristle when the documentary first came out, which she did? She didn't have a glowing reaction to it, though her reaction has changed. I was curious about that. I was also curious about how did you keep the rights to have the final cut, the final say in what would be with a source who is a queen of storytelling and has a lot of power to tell her own story?

Well, a final cut is something that I ask for in any film that I'm directing. Because as I explain to the person whose story I'm going to tell, I'm going to spend a year shooting the film and a year editing the film. And then we're going to spend a year, a third year getting the film out to the world and doing all the press that we're going to do and

No one's going to take that film seriously if I don't have final cut. And Martha Stewart deserves the film that she got. She deserves a film that people take seriously and a film that people know is made by somebody who was free to make the film as Keith saw fit.

was truthful and was, was the, uh, consistent with his vision for the film. That's, you know, that's, that was what I, and I said this to Martha the night we met at that dinner. It's when we, when we talked about the possibility of, of, um, of making a film together. And I said it to Anna Wintour the day that I met her. And I said it, you know, I've said it, I said it to, to Billie Eilish and her family when we met, it's just, you know, it's, it's, um,

It's what we agree to, and I'm always grateful for it, but there's, you know, that's what it is. It's a striking win for you, though, I have to say. When I heard that you were able to pull that off, you know, in an era where increasingly it's hard to do things that resemble reporting, independent storytelling, things are so often branded content or influenced by the celebrity, you know, guest. Yeah, hats off for keeping that right in that negotiation.

Kim writes in, my American heroes are Martha Stewart and Jimmy Carter. Lovely that you had this segment on the day that Carter is laid to rest. Martha is maligned often for being a B word. We use that word actually in discussing her today. She's not. She is a perfectionist who knows how she wants things done. When will people give women like this a break? Look at what she has accomplished in her life. She's an amazing and inspiring woman.

Sam Wrightson. Yeah. Sentiment noted. Sam Wrightson, Martha Stewart lied to federal investigators. She doubled down with the false story of a prearranged stock sale. That is illegal. All she had to do was tell the truth and accept the fine. Instead, she decided to break the law. This type of prosecution happens to make an example of the criminal and stop others from committing this crime.

Your response? I don't disagree with anything that that person says. I'm sorry to have missed his name. Absolutely. And the film says so. I mean, there's no question she was she was convicted of a crime and she went and what did she she'd by the way, she didn't appeal. She went to prison and she served her time. And there you go.

and she shouldn't have lied and the jury spoke. But did he have to prosecute her? Did he have to send her to prison? Definitely.

And that part of that last part of, you may read it again, this type of prosecution happens to set an example. I don't believe that's what justice calls for, example setting. That's everything else I totally agree with. But the idea that we would prosecute some to set an example, but not others, that's selective prosecution, which is what the movie argues was the case here. And, and, and,

So that's where I have my thumb wrestle with the person who wrote it. Are you going to make a Martha Stewart sequel?

Nay, nay. Oh, really? Although we wanted to make one. You know, Martha liked it. She went on, I think it was Jimmy Fallon, and said that there was going to be a Martha 2. And I was like, Martha, come on, stop saying that. They don't say that. You know, people worked on this movie, and they have mothers, and their mothers are proud of them. And she said, well, give me their names, and I'll send them all a book. So everybody got a Martha Stewart book.

100th cookbook or 100th book for the holidays to thank them. She was very gracious, as she is. Some of my great, really, truly, some of my favorite holiday presents have come from Martha Stewart in the five or six years that I've

that I've known her. We did also, but in jest, play with the idea of Martha II, which is all about what happened when we released the film, from Martha coming out to grumbling about it to the various panels that she and I did together.

Fighter relationship there. All the press. My very favorite part of the documentary, Martha, was revisiting Stewart's relationship with Snoop Dogg. She told you, RJ, at the end of your doc, end with a song, Beautiful, which you did. We're going to follow that out and do the same on this show, Forum. RJ, thanks so much for joining us. What a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. I just want you to know that you are real. To know that you are real. Oh, I only

I just want you to know that you are really special.

Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. Support for Forum comes from Broadway SF and Some Like It Hot, a new musical direct from Broadway from Tony Award-winning director Casey Nicholaw. Set in Chicago during Prohibition, Some Like It Hot tells the story of two musicians forced to flee the Windy City after witnessing a mob hit.

Featuring Tony-winning choreography and an electrifying score, Some Like It Hot plays the Orpheum Theatre for three weeks only, January 7th through 26th. Tickets on sale now at broadwaysf.com. Support for Forum comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment.

From wielding the power of the law to protect people's health, preserving magnificent places and wildlife, and advancing clean energy to combat climate change, Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer. Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org.