The DOGE Team of MAGA Billionaires Takes Shape
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But you on mosques now, the richest person on the planet, more than half the satellite in space, are owned and controlled by one man. Well, he's a legitimate super genius, legitimate.

He says he's always voted for democrats, but this year IT will be different, have vote republican.

There is a reason the U. S. Government is so reliant on him. A one musk is a sm artist, and he's done nothing. Anything he does is fascinating people.

Welcome to on bloomberg weekly podcast about elon mosque. It's tuesday, november twenty six. I'm your host, David coptos.

And before we get into anything else, i've got an exciting bit of information for all you, dear listeners out there, which is that we have created for you an email address in which you can pink us your thoughts, your ideas, things you love, things you hate about the show, or things you want us to do going forward. IT is elan ink at bloomberg. The net and IT is open to receive your messages as we speak right now.

I am sitting here in the studio with our man, max chafin. Either max a David, okay, max, so it's thanksgiving. We care. Uh, as you well know, you get your turkey ready.

pal. I did I brand IT last night in the process.

Brian is incredibly key until we started bring the y years ago, way to dry Brownings change.

You do a wet brian or a dry Brown.

What, brian? Well done, max. Now in addition to the branding of the turkey, thanksgiving is just a busy time of the year.

So you know, we're pulling a recording from the archives this week, max, previously unreleased live recording from the tech summit glimmer held in london last month. Great chat about this information on the globe. X is growing role in IT. But you know, before we rule that tape, I can help but be curious about some recent developments with dose. You remember, dose max.

you're talking about the department of government efficiency. That mayor may not be an actual department.

I am talking about the department of government efficiency. That mayor may not be a department. correct? I want to pick your brain about this, but I also, max, I got to get something off my chest fer.

So you're onna. Listen to me now. Okay, how are I humor me here?

You ve been dying. I know that this take is weeks in brother month years.

There's been a lot of joking about dosh, but you know, I think the macro backdoor p is important. The macroeconomic backdrop to the rise of those, which is, you know, one of the clear ways I think we can interpret the election results are the american people were rejecting the inflation Spike we saw on saying in loud, in no insert terms, we are voting out current administration because we hated that inflation.

And IT is also a statement effect that while there were many drivers of the inflation Spike that we've suffer over the last few years, unprecedented during deficits being run by the government starting under trump in twenty, Carried Carry down by biden in subsequent years, are a key part of IT. And so I think that in the abstract, IT stands to reason that you say hi. It's no coincident that something like doge was law unchurchly a group of people coming together to say how can we squeak and tight and government spending get the deficit under control and try to take inflation? Now of course, there's also the fact that is an incoming administration also talks incessantly about cutting taxes, which this true will only drive the deficit right back up. But let's strip that part of IT out for a second though, and just say, hey, when IT comes to spending in a deficit, they have something of a point.

Okay.

to which why do you say they don't?

I don't say that they don't. I mean, they obviously do, but I don't think it's in any way clear that there is a plan indoors to deal with IT or that voters, in fact, voted for IT. And when you start like yes, voters were very upset about rising Prices, but trump also campaigned on a booming economy. He's gona pressure whoever runs a reserve to lower interest rates ah you know so so I don't know that I don't know that it's clear that voters are like, yeah, let's let's cut let's cut social security spending, let's cut medicare, let's cut the defense department like none of those things are popular and unfortunately, that's what it's going to take.

And on top of that, I don't think you on mosque vv ae ROM swami have really laid out a plan to address that spending with the stuff that's largely been talked about, seems like gets more of about sort of making very modest tweet or whatever to to how the government Operates, stuff that I don't know is actually going to gonna do anything like I think that this is like another instance of a bunch of tech guys attempting to apply themselves. And we're actually starting to see you like there is some excitement in the world of tech for this because ian is a big name and there's a sense of of possibility under trumpy. Obviously, as a lot of access, I just think it's going to be it's going to be really hard for them to to do anything.

Indeed, we shall see if they manage to come up with actual, tangible, meaningful cuts that are politically palatable to a majority in congress to move the needle. But max, as you are just alerting to the team a dose, the large team a dosh is starting to take shape.

I mean, there are some basically some friends of you on some of his, like this guy, Steve Davis, who's one of his long time deputies were to x. He were to boring company. He sort of like musk, like top fixer.

He was at x for a while. There were reports that he was involved pencilling. He's involved with those.

Antonio gracy is one of musk. Good friends. He's involved. Are these guys gonna be involved in, in a full time capacity? Like i'm not totally sure. I think it's going to be must joke about this you know he said you're going, I have to be work, you know willing to work like eighty hours a week for like little to no pay and effectively like sleep on the floor of the of the show in the energy department or something.

We know where the doge office will be.

Max, my assumption is, well, for now, I think they are based in their in morale go with everybody else who's around trumps orbit. My assumption that IT is that .

I will be somewhere in dc.

although building, I think it'll in a we work actually.

there we go, we work so that you mention antonio grasses, Steve Davis, joe land's day, like I believe has been tell us about him.

Joe long stale is kind of a Peter o protege. He's a cofounder of talent here. He's an investor I believe has a big stake in space acx. He's based on taxes. He's one of the guys who I think served as kind of a on tray to iron mosques like political engagement.

But again, I don't know that he is going to become a full time employee of dogs like IT really sounds like there are bunch a bunch of guys who have ideas and they they haven't totally figured out how to actually stop this thing or what is even staffing IT look like I talking to somebody who's had, uh, conversations people involved doing and and they say that, you know, it's gonna be maybe iran and the vae RAM swami each bring, you know, five or six people into a five, one, cy, three. So so in other words, a privately funded, a privately funded entity, rather than A A government program, which makes sense because you, because you on mosque is not gonna a want to like deal with government ethics rules and so on. But again, like I don't know how much you really get done with that. And and again beyond, they're definitely going to be able to make a lot of political noise, and I think they're going to be able to have a role from like an advocacy position, perhaps especially given that trump is listening u an musk right now and there are members in congress, both houses of congress, who are saying, yeah, like we're going to have a .

dosh caux we're Green.

She's on board. I believe Jenny earned in the senate has has indicated that she's gonna be some sort of representatives or whatever, somebody who's going to advocate for this stuff. So I think it's we should look at this. I'm sure these guys are technologists. I'm sure they're onna try to like do some data stuff, but I think this is that we should think of this more as a political thing rather than like they're gonna find like lots of narrow efficiencies of government and bringing IT together that they're onna come out and say we should get rid of the department of education congress.

go for IT or whatever. Now as as a close listener of citizen elon max and a big fan, I heard you say the other day that you are simultaneously thinking that those will go nowhere at all but also could have perhaps you also then think an enormous impact. Are you still sort of back and forth between that?

No, no. I mean, i'm more optimistic about you on mask chances to have an impact politically than I think almost anybody else, including bunch of the people who are talk on the podcast. And I think that's because that's .

why we cut them all out today. Well, I mean.

here's the thing like we all come with biases. And a lot of people who ve been in washing a long time and you've covered trump for a long time, have seen business leader after business leader, you know, get into trumps orbit and sort of crash out in border line, humiliating and or career destroying spectacular flame out.

People i've cover you on mosque for a long time and I followed, have seen him over and over again, sort of could jole, you know, work is but off, do whatever IT takes essentially to to succeed and and causes enemies to to fall away. So like if you've been fallowing in on for a long time, as I have, it's like you think like, okay, well, you know, maybe there's a chance is going to figure this out. And I do think he has things going for him that are unappreciated, like his wallet and his willingness to spend in the midterm elections. If that if that keeps up, give some real leverage over true.

if the value of these can won't keep something.

And even if they, as long as as long as the value of tesla doesn't collapse, like like spending a couple hundred million dollars in twenty twenty six, like he he can do that very easy. And that's gonna be a huge asset to to the president elect and to the the kind of hard right republicans who wants to buy into the agenda.

So a max beyond elan threading about, as I was earlier, the evils of inflation that can often be cause biotic control, budget deficits. What does he want to get out of dogs?

I honestly think that dose, and we we get into this in the citizens elon podcast in the last episode, but I think dose is just an on tray for him into trump world. And I think what he wants is to influence government policy in areas that he knows and where he is positioned to benefit. So it's government contracts like and and there are aspects of government procurement that he has spent, been exposed to and has like big thoughts. And I suppose like doge, if you squirt has something to do with those. But now I think it's more about trying to, you know push the government in the direction that you know that that he thinks be good, which you know consequently happens to involve him getting even richer.

Yes, I I do suppose that would be A A nice little knock effect and will find out just how far those gets. We will be talking about IT their listeners again and again and again in coming months. So you have that to look forward to.

But max, let's go back to london. Um that time we did that. Remember that show within one.

I mean, it's hazy.

you know feel .

like I like I feel like i've lived a lifetime. But you in in reviewing IT, I do think that conversion we has really important. You know we talked about disinformation at x and in the ways in which governments in particular have started to resist IT or try to resist IT.

And you know, x, as we saw with this election, like it's a part of u on mosques, empire, tes, the media, ARM of u on ink. And and if it's weakened, either because IT sort of goes too far and make some governments in europe mad or IT pisses off its users and and they go to blue sky or something else that we talked about last week, you know that's that's going to hurt you on. It's going to hurt more than disney .

going away or whatever. wait. So if it's the media ARM of elon ic with the hell away.

You take IT, but it's 这个 吧。 So let's listen to that recording. It's me and new max and it's a special guess. We had device, a shanker gramper who's former social media executive and now a professor. We recorded this A A week or so before the elections and then he mac, don't go anywhere because when we're done listening to IT, i've got to ping you in a couple of other things i've had on my mind. As you, I ve had a lot of my mind of way.

I'm here free, David.

All right.

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right. Hello everyone. I'm David pop ollis, host of elan inc. Bloomberg weekly podcast and all things elon mosque. It's great to be here in london for the bloomberg tech summit, and we have a great show ahead for you. I'm joined on stage but my man, max chafin, senior writer, a business week, and not only a regular on this show, but now the host of another elon pod, you're going to be all all elon out very soon. A mini series on his political awakening called citizen island that dave used today.

low max.

Also with this is debica shanker, grand pier tech risk expert. Now debica spent over a decade working at large social media platforms like tiktok and meta. Welcome debica.

Thank you. Having a David.

okay. Given that the theme for today's and his trust, we're going to dive into the controversial evolution of x under elon and how is moving into politics is drawing every greater scrutiny the platform in his broader global empire. By the way, we're recording here.

So you know tried know at some point in time, you know yah get up, laughed up like pretend you into IT devika were going to start with you. It's one. You know, the word's trust and safety get thrown around a lot.

Even at the university you teach at in greece, those words figure prominently the name of one of your winter semester courses. So at places like meta, tiktok, x, what are those terms actually mean? What are those teams do there?

Essentially, trust and safety are the people who keep the internet safe. So they do broadly three things. Number one, define the rules of acceptable behavior online. Member two, enforce those rules in a consistent, objective, reproduced, able manner and and a three come up with innovative ways to make sure that people can have a safe experience and of late, also work with regulators and close partnerships to meet with all of the complaints requirements. So those three fourths sort of boiled down to what we broadly mean by a trust and safety in tech.

And now when must took over twitter? Now x know he famously gutted a huge part of the trust and safety team, something like eighty percent of IT I was part of that, you know, massive chaotic layoffs that he did when he first got there. What are the risks of doing that? And how are we seeing them play out now?

So the impact of budding your address and safety team is simply real world consequences. So if you get red of eighty percent of the people who are responsible for keeping your platform safe, all of us here who use ex um can see and feel for ourselves the level and type of discourse. The endless stream of crypto offers, the only fense ads. We see all of that in english. Now if we take those risks that we can feel tangibly and magnify that by one hundred X, I think we can begin to have a waye understanding of what the risks look like in non english speaking countries.

So do we see these problems proliferating more on x now than we would on other platforms?

The problems have felt more acutely on x on account of not having teams that are responsible for making sure that the platform is safe in those languages and in .

those countries. When you must prove back for president trump to his platform, right? He did a via pole, and he was like, he he just said, like, bring present from back yes, to know vox popular, vox day basically hey, whatever you think is cool and it's such an interest in contrast, like facebook, which was so the decision to ban trump and then like what to do with him, was so caught that did they created this entire, like the cream court, like we call the overside board literal, and they and they went this like a lengthy, brief sort of discussing. And moscow course is just shooting from the hip, I think partly because that's just how he runs his companies. And he's just decided, you know, hey, how hard could be to run a social media site, which course overlooks like a lot of the problems that dav bring up, and then, you know, and then also has like these political reasons to do so.

But there can be there can be too much intervention from these teams.

Can they are not met? I mean, I think there's the quite there's like a philosophical question of like how like how open should social media companies be like like people about free speech and and like shouto be unlimited free speech. So there's there's that question. And then like what that does to trust as far as people who use the platform because you want people who use the platform to feel like it's not an arbitrarily is not just like whatever the owner wants in that particular moment.

The key thing that you want to have as any platform that like cares about its users and has a good principal is lily. You want to make sure that the decisions that you make, our objective, reproducible and testable, like doing a poll on who should come back to your platform, adult, I think, maybe fails all three of those thinking things. And if you take the .

position on the poll overwhelming that trust should come back.

I mean, I would I think the problem with that is if you decide, hypothetically speaking, that you're going to have a digital platform, but you make all decisions based on referendums, right? Let's make up this world where that's the case, right? You still need to have some sort of god rails around how often you going to do the polls.

Who are the people who going to vote on these polls? What results are good as eighty percent gold, seventy percent goods, so that you can apply those in a uniform and firm way? And to, I don't what max said, I think must went from its free speech.

I like free speech to, I like free speech as long as it's legal to, I like free speech as long as it's legal. But i'm still uncomfortable about people who track my jet or people who use terms like this gender too. I like free speech as long as it's legal. But if a country like grizel says that it's illegal, then i'm kind of not okay with IT. So you can go through those .

you know those huge .

changes in your opposition in a very short period of time. I think that's .

it's also weird because musk right now feels like he's following to many the same pitfalls that he like criticize you know, the prior regime like musk critique of twitter was that they were too captured by biden and by democratic politicians. And now you have must himself serve, acting as a surrogate, campaigning with the foreign sight and know along way having to make all these like very difficult decisions and that kind of a roads trust as well.

very much so. And we will get back to that issue in a second. I just want to ask you to be because though I hear what you're saying on some of those things in that evolution that's that's taking part in terms of know how he's viewed um how to treat these issues.

But I still I guess I wonder if you were to sell your soul, not that you would do such a thing, but if you were to sell your soul and over the dark side, glad my puttin said here, here's a half a million dollars a month to help me spread this information. What would you tell you? Just simply say, just go to x do IT all there.

First of all, I don't think you need half million. I think I think he's overpaying .

but obviously that you .

know you are offering you so they probably say yeah go to x because if you don't x doesn't label any um any of the official russian propaganda state media. There's no labels on any of them. So people interact with content from russian state sponsored points of view without really knowing that that's what .

they are interacting with. I mean, the age of getting anything you know band or removed a pretty low. No.

yes, they don't. At least according to the latest transparency report, there's no mention for they're doing around covert influence Operations or specifically this information. We think um it's gantz back to the original thing around like if you don't have anyone looking at the problem or measured the problem, then suppose you can take the view that there is no problem.

You would sell your soul, by the way, easily in a second. But would you also send to, actually you have some other grand plan to spread this information?

Well, I mean, I think what's so interesting about x is that it's a relatively small plot. I mean, like you, facebook, instagram has a lot more tiktok.

As more users, the reach is strong.

Now I do think there there's been all this talk around how we one must change. I know we famously, as he said, laid off all these people. And IT always seems that sent a lot of users, including a lot of prominent users, including celebrities and journals and so on, essentially running from the hills or or know defecting to instagram and and threats, which is the instagram like twitter version. But on another hand, I think IT still remains culturally relevant and like especially in the us, and especially in terms of like conservative politics, IT is like where that political conversation still seems to be happening and therefore, yes, if I were .

part of the know .

and I have no other choice, right, IT does seem like a pretty effective way o to like reach a politically engaged audience. And I think like I mean, that's obviously bad from a you know or not obviously bad IT. IT might be bad from a societal point of view, but IT is in some sense to you are must credit because x is still relevant.

I think regulators around the world like waking up and realizing like what what do we want to signal here and exactly around the political conversation in the us that everyone feels that. But like if we just move .

just mom out bit, right?

Currently there is an ongoing conflict stand off diplomatic standoff between indian canada around the alleged assault and murder of a sick activist. If you go on eggs for understanding, or if you just want to see what's happening on this specific topic, all of the top site had algorithm ally amplified sources of information are state media points of view, and why that is especially .

state media from russia in india.

So that Sparked c india are to india. These are your top sources. And this is why this is interesting, is because the content that russian state media is creating in a country like india is is extremely localized.

Its means it's entertaining and you see that they see their point of view so effectively. And in local languages that IT gets picked up by journalists in india who still use eggs, right, for a variety of reasons. And then that's part of the mainstream conversation, conversation. And then it's hard .

to say whether IT start, hard to say where IT starts, but IT does get the people worked up.

The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers. So that's why we created the big tick from bloomberg podcasts. To give you the context you need to make sense of IT.

All every day, in just fifteen minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters. You'll hear from bloomberg journalists like that. Levine, a lot of this means, like self, is, I think, embarrassing to the S. C.

Follow the big take podcast on the eyehe art radio APP apple podcast. Or wherever you listen. I want to talk a little bit about the riots. Step broke out here in the U. K.

This summer um in the weight of the mass stabbing and shelford the riot here were a concrete case of a virtual mob turning into an actual mob in the streets. Much of that virtual mob congregating on x eg. Gone by moscow, predicting civil war here.

So the counterfactual was hard to map out. improve. But do the riots take place if there was no such thing as social media?

I mean, there were riots. But and this is what if you ask, like a social media company, like an executive here, like they would say, well, there were riots before race. Riots existed in in the world before social media, unfortunately. And yet on the other hand, I don't know.

I mean, it's really tempting to see to see this as a case where like the influence of these platforms and of our kind of just completely broke in like information ecosystems that are very entertaining our spilling on the real world. And then IT creates this like additional problem when you're like, hey, social media companies, can you perhaps ring this in a little bit? Know maybe you could try to help us like figure out how to deal with this. You crisis and the CEO of one of them, you on mosque, is just like, sorry, i'm busy posting my own memes about right, right, which is what's was going on I mean that he was not only ignoring british lawmakers, he was just sort of like pouring, you know, extra gasoline on the fire.

I think the fire gasoline like sort of contribution to the problem and the real world consequences can it's another one of those things where you like to look at the entire globe and you see there are parts of the world where what's on the internet leads you. There is a direct link between what happens in the real world. I can give you an example.

This is the unfortunately topic of just a couple of months ago, bangladesh had went through this huge period of political turmoil. The prime minister fled in the country at extreme shop notice, and there were, there was a claim that one of the beloved red critters, for everyone who follows cricket as our house was torched as part of communal violence in blandish. This was a claim that originated on ex and this was a time and internet was um shut in bangladesh as response to like what what can you do to control the risks and the spread of information right? Um so this claim was fact checked by multiple fact shakers within, I want to say, five to six hours.

But that context that this is misleading and this was false was not anywhere to be seen on the platform. And IT kind of took a life of its own and IT spread to the neighbouring countries, who then started to, like, make kill list of people who belt to minority groups within their local communities. And they did that on ex in languages which are known english.

And you can still probably find a lot of them under the alcoholics amplified section of wax for bangladesh. So the the actual contribution to uh crisis will right still happen, yes, but what is a contribution to the real world consequence because of technology in different parts of the world? I think it's it's quite varied. In some places it's extremely high like maana r or bang desh or india, and in some places it's more muted.

There was a sense that mask was going to be called, or some of the leaders of actually were going to be called to the U. K. And held to account and forced to ask, answer questions that never happened at the same time.

There are do seem like there are some forces building here in UK and broader europe where um they have a slightly more dim or harsh view towards social media. Then in is the case in the us, are we going to see actions taken potentially in the future? Is muslim na collision course with regulators here in europe?

I think yes, there's a short answer.

The collision course definitely.

I think the slightly longer answer would be. And i'm sure this is the discussion that is happening at outcome and multiple regulators and the european commission around what is the message we want to send with regards to compliance, to regulation of social media. So based on where they land on that spectrum, I think it's unlikely that, that would be as extremist um telegram .

CEO who was arrested for.

but IT is now after the regulators to send the right message. I think because if there is no consequence for getting your team that is responsible for keeping use digital platform safe, if there's no consequence and what is what message does that send to other platforms? What message does that send to start up? So might be creating new platforms are important to safety to them and they design. So I think it's definitely on a coalition course, but maybe not as extreme .

as .

as telegram uis on the other.

very good. We're at a time we need to end IT there. But devika, max, thank you very much.

Okay, that was awesome. It's all, it's all coming back to me. now. Max and I especially member the drinks was really fancy drinks. You and ryan got h.

what were they called after the show?

That is one part that has not come back to me, too many of them right now. Listen, the thing I want to ask you about, like a fabrication. No, H R, I was therefore IT was documented that there are pictures.

So iran is now joking about buying M S. N. B.

C. The twitter thing started with the joke. Mac.

it's true. And and it's not clear to me that comcast, which is spinning off its cable companies, cable networks into a separate company, the idea is that both it's like the telecom part and the media part will be worth more and two different things. It's clear they be willing to like part with just like one of their cable channels course, they own a bunch of different cable channels. But as you said, I mean, I think in the world of like corporate M N A, like if someone makes a huge offer like they're going to they are going to look at IT iran, I don't think has really been very serious about this, right?

There's been we have any sort of sense of what the dollar value of this thing would be?

No, I have no idea. And I think it's there's there would be like real questions about how much it's worth. Like as a stand alone thing.

there are a lot of fix cock.

You'd have to think that the caches .

would be deal hundred, two hundred million.

I mean, the thing is like like twitter was a business that iran must understood well, he was A A long time user. He's loved the thing.

This you don't think this is.

this feels like a troll. This feels like me mate. Now, you know, he's done stuff that seemed out there before. But I think for now, like i'm looking this more as a bit rather than a actual proposal, but I think it's something we should like keep our eyes on because again, you never know.

You could also imagine him if he's serious about about broadcast, about owning a TV channel, like there are a handful of other conservative networks, you know that that have been spon up over the past few years that i'm sure would be would be interested. You could imagine him going after some kind of big name, sort of left media outlet. Maybe it's not A T V station, maybe maybe a struggling print magazine or something like that, know there are bunch of those.

So so I don't know like I don't think it's totally crazy. He he clearly likes media. He got something out of his last media deal and now there was twitter. You could imagine maybe some allergies, but I think it's probably tty hard Operate M S N B C. And i'm not an expert on on the economics of cable television, but i'm guessing it's pretty hard to Operate M S N B C as a standalone thing that that's gonna outside of us.

expert. I like how serious you're taking this question because you know what no, it's to your point, we we would be foolished to take anything positive in that sort away in this case in the form of a tweet as merely uh, a joke to be discarded because he just his prove to us in the past that that he is often deadly serious.

I mean, there is also the the the question of like creating a little bit of news. Creating again, like dog is going to be hard. So and elan musk, kind of a master of creating new stories, launch just like trump, right? Like the way trump it's like the trump presidency is like a reality show and he's really good at like finding things for people to focus on. So so maybe this is IT, but but again, IT just feels like a lot. And if I also feels a little derivative, the onion is buying in for war IT IT feels like a little bit of a like a sequence slash competing hollywood studios coming up with like copy cat stories like I don't know i'm i'm none into IT yet .

already fair enough. And max course we need to remind everybody again, we have our brand new email address for our listeners to pink us at what is the addressing mac.

You on ink at bloomberg dot net, you can tell something to show and tells which departments the dose should cut. We'll pass IT right on and we'll read IT uh ah you know on the show if IT if it's funny.

right if it's funny or if it's helpful for the dose team max could work with that. Brian, that turkey. Brian, thank you. Be thanksgiving to you.

Be thanks giving to you, David.

This episode was produced by Stacey wong, anna seracs, our editor, and ray han harmony is our senior editor. The idea for this very show also came from raya m wake maples handles engineering and emos anchel fact checks our supervising producers magness henrickson. The iranic theme is written in, performed by toka yezza and alesia a Brendan Francis minimis are executive producer and sage bowman is the head of winter podcast.

A big thanks, as always to our supporters, joe weber and brad stone. I'm David popp oas. If you have a minute rate and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us. See next week.

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