How Kyle and Jamie Got Back to Basics and Found Balance on the Path to FI
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Hey, before we go in into the epsom, I have two quick announcements. First, we're recording our east annual year and winds episode, which is my absolute favorite episode the year. And if you want to be featured on this, send your twenty twenty four winds in via new feedback cage.

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If you want to get A T shirt or hood a switch, just go to choose, find that come a shirt and that i'll redirect you to the site where you can purchase. And now onto the show. Hello, and welcome to choose a fy today.

In the show, we have a gust who is actually a listener and a member of our community. Kyle holland wrote into me a couple days ago and proposed this really interesting episode about back to basics being the theme of where humans wife Jamie are on their five journey. So they essentially found five, three push years ago, they paid off hundred and twenty three thousand dollars in medical sudan loans, basically on a waitress st.

Salary and now, most recently, a resident salary. And they ve really run the gaming now of the five journey in this capsule. Ted short little time.

I think this story has a little bit of everything. And on the back side of this show, i'm going to read a little bit of what I wrote to me. I think it's absolutely fantastic, just about a sense of nostalgia for embracing five principles at first and just how exciting IT is.

And I think that is exciting. And some of us kind of lose that along this boring middle of our journey. And sometimes when you just regroup and you go back to basics, and you look at your life in terms of how can I embrace simplicity, how can I make changes and make my life Better, and how can I take action, it's going to evolve you. And I think this episode will embolden in every single person listening. With that, welcome to choose a five.

Kill my friend. Thank you for joining and thanks for reaching out. I'm really excited about .

this happened yeah no, that's have on this is gonna a lot of fun. I've been listening to the podcast for White. I'm really like to be here.

Yeah, this should be awesome. Your story is fantastic. I said on the intro that i'm onna read a little bit of your email I don't Normally do at such length, but the email was just so beautiful and perfect that i'm going to set the stage for your story here.

So okay, like already said, you and your life discovered choose of I and twenty twenty one who said IT fundamental changed our lives on a resident and way to salary. We managed to pay up one hundred and twenty three thousand dollars in medical student loans within three years. Reflecting on the journey, i've been inspired to propose an episode idea which would be back to basics.

Looking back, I feel a sense of notorious for the time when we first embrace the principles of fire. IT was an exciting period filled with positive changes, solidifying a mutual goal, with my wife gaining a clear vision for future, experiencing a new found camerata ery. However, as we dive deeper into the five community, we found ourselves hyper optimizing every aspect of our lives, financially, health wise and beyond.

We took IT to the extreme and many areas and came to understand that the sometimes over emphasis of optimization in the five personality often detracts from focusing on the more significant and meaningful aspects of our lives. Returning to basics became crucial financially and meant prioritising saving more than we earned and arresting the difference for health in about focusing on fundamental exercises such as body weight, exercise and adopting a diet center, or on whole foods, cutting out process ones, cultivating genuine human connections became a priority. Face to face interactions and spontini texts calls this journey really became of its simplifying our lives and rediscovering what truly matters. Kyle, wow, that's amazing.

That sounds a lot Better when you read IT but yeah .

dramatic factor here but man, that that is a beautiful five journey and just a couple short paragraphs when you hear that reflected back to you your own words, what are your first thought you know.

just really brings me back to that initial time when I first discovered any sort of personal finance book. I think I was introduced to some pretty classic stuff early on for my dad. I think one of the book was one up by wall street by Peter lynch, and the other one was the intelligence and investor by bgrm.

And there were great books. They focus definitely more on stock analysis and value investing. But IT just didn't have that appeal to me that, you know, the choose F.

I. Community did. So we had an idea to save, but I just lacked a clear purpose.

You know, this was all pre medical school, as around the time I started to date, my now wife. Fan, no, we were moving out. ito.

O, we did. All the typical personal finance staff were. We had two roommates. We shot at the local kind of budget grocery store, but we basically no idea what we are spending, earning, saving and and just looking back, he felt like we had this huge blind spot, and we are going through the motions. So during you read, that is just, you know, gives me like a surreal feeling to just realize how far we've come on. There's a pretty awesome journey on the way.

Yeah, yeah. This was not we're not talking about like a multi decade journey here either. That's the wild part about this. This is three and change year. So it's a fairly abbreviated of time.

But I want to to go back to what you just said about flying blind because I think that's an important point where most people who are first finding persons finance and choose if I start, but just real quick before we get there. So we're going to put a pending that come right back to IT. Your dad gave you one of the mall street and the intelligent invest that book, the latter by background, which is more bullets hero, basically the person he looked up to.

Most parents don't have the knowledges where we're all to give their kids that was kind of really precise book. What kind of background did you not have? How did your parents teach you about personal finance?

So think my dad has always been a very fugal guy. I think he got IT from his parents as well. His dad was from norway and his mom was from estonia, and they actually fled to the U.

S. When the soviet invasion, their contrary. So I think he grew up living off a professor salary. And I think his grandfather taught him those ways, just really save and be frugal and live the neath their means. And I think that just stuck with him.

So I think he dove into the the general personal finance area with whatever resources he had at the time. I know he doesn't have access to all the podcast and blogs that we have access to now. So we when I was Younger, I like a do you know like finance books, you know, just off of wim to see what he would recommend. He gave me those books, and he was a good jumping off point, although I don't really think I got to the heart of what I was looking for.

Yeah, I wonder I mean, it's incredible that he gave you those those books just from A A very high level but yeah, in terms of like a starting point, no, those necessarily would be the ones that you would give future kids, let's say, or sound like I would give my kids. But nevertheless, just the fact that I was part of your your life growing up. That's interesting.

Internet itself. I'm did your dad, I guess, knowledge, a person, finance. You're just awareness, let's say, did IT impact you positively in any way? Like did you make any kind of interesting college decisions or anything like that? Like did any of that kind of such factor in IT?

Definitely did. I went to, probably won t like the more expensive as I would say he was kind of college, and I knew I was an expensive choice to do. I did a year up purdue, and then I transfer to connect lege.

And I knew how much I cost a semester. And then I talk to my counselor, my dance counsellor, at college, and I went over how many credits I had, how many craters I needed to be able to graduate. And I figured, if I just took as many critics, I possible we could, my false semester of senior year, I could graduate early and essentially save fifty thousand.

So I made up taking, I think he was twenty six credits at the time to graduate early and I would not have done that. It's like, I didn't looking back, he was kind of crazy and I kind wish I just had enjoyed IT a little bit more. But I was like, hey, I graduated a man. It's hard enough to .

take fifteen or eighteen credits. It's not. Well, thanks for hearing me with the the sidebar. K, because, you know, sometimes they really are those games in terms of what would you pass along to, as we always call the second generation five, right?

I think that something a lot of us, whether we're at a place in our lives where we have kids or ever going to have kids, that mean you're going to have somebody in your life, this is everybody listening. You're going to somebody in your life who's growing up and is trying to figure out where they want to go with their life and their personal finances. I actually interesting enough to just had the i've been on the board of my swimming am so as eight years and the coach of the swim team just started listening to choose a py.

that's awesome.

right? It's amazing and it's just incredibly nice guy, incredibly bright guy. And I mean, I love helping people in my real life like that. So like, i'm always trying to think about how can I explain this? So I think that something all of us should be thinking about.

I like, what are those like a little tips that you could pass along? How would you get something started? So anyway, that maybe topic for a separate podcast someday.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that just goes back to getting out of that blind spot. I think finding these resources early on so you can go on and share that knowledge with people you care about.

And no, really wasn't. Up until my third year and medical school, I was on a psychiatrist table, was an impatient psychotic, was up in northern idaho, essentially in the middle of nowhere. And my school had put me up in this in.

So we stay there for you a month, essentially. And was like, kind of one of those in uc, in a horror movies, were because didn't vacant sign. And like one, the letters is missing.

And it's like the flickering lights and lobbied that like grumpy old category, like manning the front door. So they go, here we go. And IT was a five commute each way, and I could stayed up there.

But I am away from my Fiona at the time. So I drove home five hours on the weekends each way, and I was listening to podcast around the time, and I was mostly fool that I was listening to. This was the only one that I had any information about.

But IT just like they're something missing about that way, a financial thing, a lot of stock picking, A A lot of know, just individual stock picking and financial analysis. And one random evening, I was hiking after work, and I just random google that's financial podcast. And I stumbled across tues.

F, I was just one of them on the list. So I ran with a click episode. I think he was the big earned episode back when he was talking about how much an emergency fund you actually need. Yeah, and he was saying how you all you need about ten thousand dollars in emergency fun, especially if you're working.

Because how often are you going to need six to twelve months and savings when you're actively working? And I think that was just a game danger for me because like, this guy is coming up the crazier ideas that is totally going against the grain of what all these other personal experts are saying. So I was hooked at that time, and I started to listen about five hours of two, if I, each way, when I commuted back to boys y for the weekends. And just thinking about all those early episodes as well, you know, jeremy, from goo curry cracker and then from frugal woods, and although mr. Money mash episodes, I was like, I was just that aha moment, you know, I finally found a purpose to our saving and being frugal and IT just felt like we're on the right track.

meant that is awesome and that is like the perfect segway from flying blind, which he said we'd come back to to how do you get started on your personal finance journey? And yeah, I think that old episode that was episode sixty six with bigger. It's called the emergency fun. Is IT a bad idea? Yeah.

IT was an interest. Is just so different than you Normally here?

yeah. I think that's what typifies the fight community, right? Is looking at a problem a little bit differently? How can you look at the same world in essence? And i've always look at us like this fun game to win and maybe that that exact messaging might not resume with everybody like in their own lives. But for me it's like, okay, how can I live the theme middle or upper middle class life is everybody else, but get wild, we wealthy in the process, and essentially give up nothing like that feels like a cheat code for life. Yeah.

no, exactly like you are playing the game. You're finding all these different tips and tricks, but you are also enjoying life at the same time. Yeah, I think finding if I just came at this perfect time that left a strong enough oppression on myself that take action and focus on those tips and tricks.

You know, we were in middle nowhere. I know we are just working long hours by myself away from my friends and family at this site facility. Now I remember that I had this book early on before medical school school called the house of god.

And it's actual a fictional SAT tire about this group of in turns, a hospital. They are basing IT on a hospital and are their mass general or beth israel, and they're focusing on all the psychological aspects of their work. And there is one great line that I remember.

Let's stuck with me. And sam mul, shady author, he says it's an incredible paradox that being a doctor, so degrading, yet so valued by society. And you basically saying that behind the vale of what society sees, this is a doctor.

I got the prestige. The money is just another job. And like many others, that has its chAllenges. And IT can pick to underworld being.

And, you know, I know a lot of other careers have similar issues as well, but finding financial independence at that time, I was like, wow, okay, you have assembling of control over your life in a sense of control over your future. And IT doesn't have to end and burn out down the road. And I think that was that impressionable part of me. I just know what to that jumping off point where I felt like we were on the right track after that.

Yeah, that's such an interesting point. That sense of control. And I think this is so important, no matter how much money you make, no matter what your job is and how much proceeds you have or or not as a maybe.

And let's be clear just for everybody out there, keep this in mind for the rest of the story. Kyle is on a resident salary and only husb for the last two years. This is a well under six figures salaries.

So we're not talking big box. He is a doctor, but he is not making what you think of his doctor salary. So it's not like, oh, of course, he was easy for him in his wife to pay off hundred and twenty three dollars of the no.

This who is really hard. His wife has been a full time waitress for the last number of years, which is a wonderful profession, obviously. But we're not this is not organic doctors or a lawyer salary.

Kyle is on a resident cellar. So I just want to keep that in mind because I think it's kyle is so easy, right? Like people can often write somebody off like IT was easy for them that that and like use that control. I think also taking ownership is something else that typifies the five personality.

Yeah yeah. I think like we did, the math is like a per hour basis is probably ser in in one wage, if you like, factor in the hours because a salary base. And it's true that you know some people can typify the other people's like, oh, they can do IT because X, Y, Z. But I really think anybody can do this if they start somewhere, start small and then begin to take action.

And IT is all about taking action. So let's go back to the beginning of you taking action. You in your life, right? So what you said, you are flying blind that most people, let's be clear, most people, as we always said, they stick their head in the sand when IT comes personal finance because it's just easier that way, especially when well, you're racking up cordon or good dead right.

Nobody y's going to say a one hundred and twenty three thousand dollars is a bad deal to come out as as a doctor, right? But nevertheless, that's still a big negative to start digging your attic and you need to at some point, say, okay, here's where we are. Here's where we aren't.

Here's what we spent. Here's the big looming ing dead. And I guess let's start with, how did you introduce this to your wife? So you found, choose a eye on these crazy ten, our journeys, and probably binges the first couple hundred episodes. But how do you introduce that to jammy at first?

Yeah yes, I think, you know, it's just like being a medical student at the time frighten about ending up in that financial hole and weight down by all these financial obligations and expectations. And so is like your typical introduction to your partner, where you're listening to all these things and you I finally got home one day. No, this so excited.

French, get out the car. And like jam, you know, i'm listening to all these guys. We're going to go to down to one car, we're going to sell her, we're going to bike everywhere, we're going to shop at these discount grocery stores.

We're going to walk to do all our aren't can be amazing, just like, oh yeah, okay, honey, you know, just because always trying to do new things and like a lot of pizzle, but I might know this ones gonna stick, I promise, like we're going to actually do this one. And we did, we really did. And you we started to track all our payments.

We downloaded the mint APP, and we started track our expenses and our savings. And then probably the most important thing we did is we started our debt pay off chart and a IT kind of looks like a Candy crush board, where we put our dead hundred twenty three thousand dollars at the top. And we made all these little boxes, each box with six hundred dollars, and at the end of each month, if we hit that six hundred dollar month, we will collectively filled in the box and was just in color pencil.

And, you know, we put IT up in our closet, and we just like put on the inside of one of our closets. Not that we are trying to hide every anybody, but just like not something we are trying to show off either. But he was just something fun we did at the end of each month.

And again, my wife, at the time when we were medical school, we are on a single income SHE was waiter sing at this little vietnamese restaurant at the time, working, you know, decent mount hours to pay for all our expenses and also have a little bit october's save and spend on fun things at the end of the month. And IT was literally just one hundred dollars, two hundred dollars, three hundred dollars here and there for several months at a time, until I finally started making salary. And we were able to ramp up those payments.

But we were so used to living on one salary that when we came back to main to start residency, we just kept living like we are living on her salary and just use pretty much my entire salary. We were just funding that into our debt every month. And I think that's where a lot of the progress really started happen.

Yeah that that reminds me of how a lot of doctors say like live like a resident, right? Are some variation of that and you are living before you got your resident salary, you are living on one salary, which I mean talk about flexing the frugality muscles, right? I mean, that's that's staggering. And i'm looking at this you send me a picture of your chart and I absolutely you love IT every mind yeah like you said, ki, I know CanDyland board or something like that little it's just so cool and dead free land is how you entitle this.

I think we saw that some variation of that on pin rest or like this is awesome. We're going to totally use this. And IT worked out so well.

We just had so much fun doing IT. And you can you might see a little writing there. There's little writing, a pencil around each boxes on the sure can see t on the picture.

But each month we decided to write down one thing that was memorable, or something fun or different. We did. And we actually got the idea from one of your pot with Chris .

hutch is Chris chi lita to say, yeah, I remember .

he said, I just want to do something different to new every month. And we found that too. We found that at some point, we were aggressively saving.

And if we got to the end of the month and IT wasn't something that we looked up ahead of time, I looked at back at our photos on our cameras and saw what we did is just when we were feeling IT out. If we didn't remember anything we did that month were like, well, we're probably over saving. We weren't really going out and you living in our lives like we could, we were probably working too much.

So he was those months where we look back um and IT could be a very simple things. There was just going for hike. We ent hiking in the weight mountains.

We went to the local islands and took a ferry over there and biked around. And the work could be something bigger, like we took a family vacation. And just having those little things written down made us realize that, you know, we can still save. But we are also in along the way. So yeah, there is a really good time.

Yeah, there is something really too that is, this is an inner sections. Sometimes this sounds like a little like hockey or like, I don't know some like, bro, think like, oh, how can you optimize your morning routine and like, I don't love that kind of self, but I think a lot of people talk about journal and the importance of that and also gratitude journal specifically. yeah.

And I don't think there's necessarily some like super dupr like inside secret to that. I think what he does on some of us like it's activating, whether it's like your particular activating system or just like making you hone in on positive things. I know i've actually experience, I have long wanted to journal and honesty.

I I like I just don't do IT for some reason I am capable seeing ly of doing this, but I have a masterman call every month. And the thing that we've done recently is between calls, we keep in mind our absolute hides and our absolute lows. We talk about like ones intense.

So just kind of write them down and then we go over them. And if there any commonalities amongst the people in the group we honed in on that. Now what i've found is it's similar to the gratitude journal in that I am constantly now looking for positive things.

There are very few things in my life that are truly ones, right, like the worst of the world. So i'm actually looking for these highs, like, oh, wow, when I look back on what I drawed IT down, that was a dark, good month. And I think there really there's something to that.

And I want to talk about this actual sheep because I think, you know, from listening to all these episodes is that it's the little actionable things that really resonate with you. So a how you pick six hundred thousand reach box, I know that sounds like a silly question. Uh, so there is that and then most towards tly.

And this is before your salary started, but you talk about like an extra hundred or two hundred and or three hundred dollars a month. So in the grand scheme of things, small amounts, but not, well, those are material amounts. Did you actually send them off and pay them to the school london? Like, how did you do that? Did you do that every time you had x number of dollars? Did you put in in a separate account? I would really love .

to here them yeah so like the needy guity of IT, we was after listening to the bigger and emergency fine. And I guess we don't need that much in savings of anything. We had like a zero percent, if you like, discover cards.

We had extra like three or four thousand dollars if we really needed to an emergency. So I don't remember the exact number of me was like to three thousand dollars as we kept in cash. And then at the end of each months of our expenses, if there was anything lept over, we were just directly pay that off and to our student loans. And we were at a new medical schools, so they didn't have federal loans, so we had private student loans, so just logged on to the website, paid IT off. And one other way .

OK so easy is that, and the six hundred dollars was that just totally arba.

I arra just come up a bunch of boxes. Six sounds are.

that's amazing. Okay, I like IT. And just to be cleared, everybody listening, who hasn't listening to that episode sixty six and a long time cornor myself for saying don't have an emergency.

Obviously, the argument was to have cash sitting around at that point when I wasn't earning anything at that point in time, you couldn't get five percent on a savings account. So to have money, certainly six to twelve months of your expenses sitting in an account earning zero when you had other assets made little to no sense. So that was the fees of that oppose de was you have assets.

There are very few things that are true in emergency that you're going to need to come up with tangible cash for. So most things you can pay with a credit card and you have thirty or forty five day Grace period before you get hit with expenses. So kind I did one interject that just .

in case absolutely, definitely good to clarify that has yeah yes.

slavey important concept put for most of us right in the five community. Having emergency fund is, to a large degree, I think IT is optional, especially when you're sitting on 行 significant taxi ble proper age account or something like that is， if we can, to judicis that on on .

a several ephod, never. And IT also just goes back to, you know, at a time we did end up selling a car, and we had two cars, and we were releasing at a time and just completely sold at, my wife lived a couple miles away from work. We got a cheap used bike, and he started biking everyday.

And to be able to really cut back our expenses, I mean, we were basically not spending much at all. So we felt more comfortable having a lower amount in our emergency fund, knowing that if we needed to, we could hold off on these that payments and just focus on our living expenses. But our expenses were so minimal that I just felt like the comfortable thing to do.

Yeah, that's for a lot of us. That's the back to basics part is the the old school five mentality of frugality, which I think, Frankly, we've got them away from in the five community to a large degree over the last couple years. Especially i've brought into the this world the diva za book significant. Well, I think that is an important message for people far along the path ify at some point to contemplate. I still think fragility plays a massive part in all of our lives, and we can never lose sight of that anything.

Well, you described IT, and I want to back up with this to that point when you originally brought this to jammy and and basically you're like, oh, my godness, i've found these crazy things and i'm picturing like danny, JoNathan s right? Like patting him on the head, like, oh, JoNathan, an person because exactly but you wrote, you solidified a mutual goal with your life, gaining a clear vision for our future and experiencing a new fan comatter y. And there is a couple steps between, hey, honey, I found this thing.

We're going to go down to one car. We're going to be super fugal. We're going to ride bikes to, well, this changed our lives for the Better. Like, let's talk through that because I think that step is what most people fear when they find fine and they don't know how they are .

going to explain IT yeah and I think it's one thing for a significant other to try to explain IT in their own words. But what I found to be really helpful is to find that maybe episodes or books that I think would really resonate with her. And then I remember I listened to the lifeguard episode, and then I ended up buying her book because you, jim, likes to read.

And I just gave IT tours. Give him OK like, I think you will really like this book if you want to check that out. And sh'd devoured IT. And I think hearing IT from someone else, a story made a bigger impact on her than just me and my incoherent ramblings. And that's really where we jumped off together.

I mean, remember in the fig woods book, SHE talked about you know getting away from the weekends, you know the hustle of the city and going out and hiking on the weekends. Just you know a very cheap activity do while you're also spending time with your loved ones. And that's what we do.

There is amount and range about two hours away from boys. Y, it's called the salt oth marins. We a lot times we will drive up there two hours on the weekends, and we will listen to these financial podcast together on the way. And we just joy like a simple time in the woods together about, you know, the right was awesome because he was just, oh my gosh, ouldn't know, listen to this one, listen to this one and SHE human, be intolerant IT. But I really think SHE enjoyed at the same time.

Well, SHE must have right. I think just the sheer fact that you went down to one car and she's the one riding the bike work. I mean, that sounds like certainly buying to me and and you said you experience this new found camera tory, and you're describing that with these hikes and listening to the episodes together. Can you talk about that clear vision for our future? Because I think that again, IT is like it's a sticking point for people, not in terms of we're on divergent paths, but how do we talk .

about this? I think IT broke down into what we want our lives to look like on our F. I.

Path and then what we want our lives to look like after F. I. And then what do we want to spend our money along on the way, essentially.

And I think a lot of these conversations came out during nor long corridor are long bikes or highs. And we will just talk about this and we would talk about, you know what he valued, what I valued, what we're common, what we're different. And we figured out where we want to allocate our money to live the most fulfilling life, whatever that means does.

And I think that's where that initial conversation started. And then we talked about where we want our lives to end up and where we want to live, how much we want to spend on the house and do we want kids in the future. And I think it's just kind of escalated into everything that we won't have thought of if we didn't start focusing on our finances at first.

Yeah, that is critical. I think most people and I I never mean this as meanly as IT comes up, but like are just sleep walking through life and it's because they're not having intentional conversations like this.

Yeah just really forced to into that introspection to create a life that was more centered around our values and that was spending time with our family that I was won of the main reasons why we apply for recency on the east coast closer to our family, spending time with friends, just having a general piece of mine, but not also Carrying out some time to relax and play a little bit. And you know a lot of people are caught up in the constant hustle of their lives but just spending time you know outside and you just enjoy your life a little .

bit yeah when your life doesn't cost that much. But you said you were living on one salary for a number of years, and you flex forgot myself when your life doesn't cost mage IT afford you a lot more flexibility. And in terms of both the present in the future and read the future very clearly of, okay, I am not stuck in a job.

Whether I like the job or not, I have flexibility and also not for nothing. But in terms of in the current mode, when you cut everything and and IT sounds like you might have over optimized and we're and we're going to get into that in a minute. But when you're living a lean lifestyle, you have some extra slack to increase that for a short time.

If there are things that you value or a trip you wanted, take IT. It's not about cut, cut. It's to me establishing a life, but just doesn't cost that much.

The structure of IT and IT sounds like you certainly did that in terms of your transportation. And we talk about the big three, right, the housing, transportation and food. Clearly, you hit that on on transportation. Are there any other optimization that youth are are especially useful in those other two categories? Or really any other answer thing that, that you'd love to pass on?

Yeah definitely the Victory housing. You know, the first year we moved out that we had is jam and I and we had two different romains, and we are paying like five hundred dollars in the end. And then we moved to another place as closer downtown, closer to her work.

And we were been like eight hundred dollars a month between the two of us. And when we first showed up at this place, IT wasn't even, I don't know, they clean different. The last people I have like, no, in the back room, they like to study the cari go right recently no.

going back now.

yeah. And and IT worked out, you know, we got free stuff on the facebook marketplace. We refurbished old furniture. Basically all our furnace was free. We repainted a lot of the walls, and we just made in our own. So just IT made a special that way, making IT our own, rather than like going to a fully furnish place.

And I think yet, all of this was possible because we went back to those basics, and we said at a really lofty goal of paying off our debt in five years by the other resident like that was our goal. We we started around the my school and we said, you know, five years by aneugh ency. And we knew full well that that was ambitious.

And you know, here we are, you know, with our dead paid often IT was just all about setting up those basics, setting up those systems in place and then automating the rest. And i'm not sure I think you would might have touched on this book before in the past was as a book by scot atoms that was called how to fail at everything and still win big. And he talks a lot about focusing on systems and not necessarily the goals.

So we set up all these systems in place like saving a lot of money, investing the difference, you know, focusing on our budget for food, focusing our housing and focusing on our transportation and then essentially just letting time take care of the rest. We don't really have to think about after that because everything was automated and you eventually we reached our goal without having to put you know too much thought into IT. I mean, definitely there some effort involved, but a lot of IT was just aligning those systems in place.

Yeah, that is I think the key to winning a personal finance is systems and automation where you want na take your little brain out of IT. I think that's how I look at my like I know my brain is going to screw me up because there is going to be in action or i'm going to try to outsmart.

Is that very tune? And jake, i'd smart the market? Or do you just do something silly and and almost just lead you down the wrong path? And I think setting up a system that just works where you don't have to interject any type of wild ward decision making is the crucial point for everybody.

So there are so many ways in the standards. This is the golden age of personal finance and investing. You can essentially set up every single thing on autopilot should not be at this point in time. I really hope nobody under fifty is so like paying for their utilities with a checker. Something like this, like everything can be an on to pay your credit card should be set up to pay on time and in full every single month on to pay like all of this right now, it's just IT all works and it's not that hard to set up. Yeah, I think you've .

said before that once you get everything set up, you're really not spending a lot of time thinking about your finance is on a monthly basis. And no, always think about is like that airplane analogy where if the airplane is like one degree, of course, and after forty or fifty miles, you're going to be so many miles, of course.

And I feel like finances can be like that actually when life starts to get busy, just having a general way to course correct. And IT can really be about ten minutes every month. I mean, that's pretty much always spent at the end of month. We would fill out boxes on our debt charge. We would log on tournant, see how the spending has changed, looked at each category, really not obsessing about everything, but realizing at the same time that the small expenses do matter, we will just see where things are drifting in each category.

Know if we had a month where our amazon spending was off the time really okay, we will just have a spend three months of next month or if dining and drink was just way too hide and we would cook in a lot the next month. And if we wanted to have a drink, we would go grab some beer and we would go down to the parkin watch a sunset. Simple is that we would really not obsess about IT, but at the same time, just a little awareness to nudge your life backboards the right course and backboards the way you want IT.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think that's a really cool and and not extreme way of going. I think sometimes I always fear when people do anything that's a kin to like a diet or short term ism like, oh, I absolutely must keep this under they're setting up arbiters constraints in us.

And like my category for entertainment is one hundred and seventy five dollars and I am incapable of going over that. And like that's so silly what you you're going to say no to your friends over twelve dollars or twenty thousand, whatever is like, give me a break. If you really want to make an adjustment, okay, well, then make IT the kind and gaming and make IT the next month. That's a nice senate way to go about this and .

having that flexibility now. And we can touch on the the period of over optimization before we get into how we changed a little bit to lose up the post to rings and enjoy our life a bit more. But there was a time where we did take IT to the extreme.

Our parents will still probably make fun of us. We adding oatmeal to our cereal to make the box last longer. Just just something we did and like are going to make.

This box is so long we would buy like four way connecting flights back for boys in to me, just like boys y to denver like down to the land and up the porn and yeah we say two hundred box, but it's like a fourteen our day. There's one old picture that one of us has on our phones. Just we have like our patio and there's like two camping chairs, basic just like our cardboard box is our patio and like works.

But you know, you do start to take every new aspect of your life to the extreme, like when you dive on this personal finance journey. I think after hearing about the simplicity of investing, I started dive into the weeds a lot more. You just seem like like ground and financial information. I started reading more, obsessing over asset allocation, investment strategy, this mutual there, like mutual fund versus etf.

Now, what's the perfect stock bond split? And then I listened to brian forde, um oh my god, do I need individual stocks? So IT seems like every new book or podcast I listen to there is just a new perspective on like the quote on quote right way towards achieving financial dependence.

And I think that's why you know really having us get back to the basics, just improve overall, overall quality of life. And as I started my anesthesia residency, your life became more complex. And all that mental band with I had to analyze and optimize every aspect of our financial life is going to tip me over the edge.

And yeah, IT sounds hockey if you are unbelievable if you never looked into this, but there's a finite number of decisions that we can make him a day essentially. And before bring more or less, I would take overloads as kind of ridiculous way to describe IT. But our brains stop working as optimates.

How I think about IT is I want to save the important decisions for things that actually matter, like this finite brain space that I have. And they're just so few things honestly out that actually matter in life. Most of these things, at the end of the day, sixty years from, am I going to care if I was in vtr, C. X. Or v ti? No chap.

no. Just like any big S M, P. Five hundred .

matters so little. No, obviously that's how I approaches. And this is hard for t wisdom.

So please, like I never want to make a sound like i've figured this out from the time of seventeen. I've made more, more six than you could possible imagine. So I totally get this.

But I think this over up zone is something that a lot of people do fall pray to because, like you said, it's so easy to because on a lot of levels, you are getting so much in the way of positive feedback from making these decisions to be frugal way to at the beginning, the first fifty decisions are going to just almost embrey make your life Better. You're going to always have all the sexy money. Like you said, you have this battery with your significant other.

You're on the same path. Everything's wonderful, union or ramaz, but then you're get into putting open al. Does that even save money first?

I know did at that point has been a really good cereal box, but is true that you know that excitement in that camera ary that initially Sparked that F I journey with jam and I just I kind of just began to fade you know you be so fun finding new ways to do things um yeah after listening to the first words up so we started cutting each others here and we still do that that a just like a fun thing we do with each other.

And i've gotten really good cutting here. She's got to even Better. And you're just like getting books from the library, refurbishing furniture, like all that stuff that we should do for fine to think this seem like a little bit of a tore now that life was getting easier. You know we just started traveling less, you know, worrying about driving how much gas was cost and, you know, just start seem like IT was tilting a little bit more towards decoration than I was towards living. And remember mad fantis, he said, like he went towards the extreme of one thing and he took a whole year of spending, just basically whatever at the end of year is only like two thousand dollars extra at the end of month like he would yet an extra beer at the bar and just not worry about that stuff. And that's really why we started what we call our monthly memorable on our debt payment chart, just so we would never fall pray to that.

Yeah I think that's so important. And in amazing, you're hitting all of these seminal episodes of truth abode epsom twelve was with food goods episodes, teen. With mad finance is I actually recently went back and sort of listening to the first, let's say, fifty years, sixty episode kind of working my way through.

And IT is staging for anybody out there who is new to choose a fire just started in last year or so. Go back and listen to those early opposes the resonate today. And ninety nine percent of IT is really accurate as of today. So obviously, if you hear me say, oh, with the limit for four one kids in twenty eighteen was, but don't listen that clearly, but pretty much everything else, it's amazing how this all bills on itself and how, when you were describing the mad sciences there about it's easy get into deprivation mindset.

And then you realize a while the difference within that and living a somewhat rich life is, in his case, there was just a couple thousand dollars in your case, just looking at the math of this on a resident salary and a wage salary like and paying off all of this dead. It's not like when you left this hyper optimization that you went crazy like this, not that big of a delta between that and living where you would see as its life. And I think that's really important. Just a couple thousand dollars at the end of that?

Yeah, absolutely not. I mean, just looking at our expenses, that really hasn't changed much. We just been more aware of how we're spending our money and doing stuff that we value.

We definitely gotta board with the travel rewards game was right after our wedding. We actually started recency like a few days after our wedding. So we didn't have the typical honeymoon.

So we opened up credit cards and we got a lot of chase point and we trans them over to high. And for those that you don't know, hit has an incredible redemption based on the chase rewards points. And we ended up they have great all expense paid resorts and canyon and cosme and a rubus.

So we went down to six days, essentially just a free honeymoon just based on chase and higher points. And we ended up getting the southwest companion past one year. We took a backup and trip back out idaho, and we were saving money at the same time. But we are really enjoying ourselves by, you know, putting all these things into place. And like you said, it's just kind of like game of flying IT and just knowing the rules, knowing which lovers to pull and you know, the day we were able to do all they saying and save money.

that is really great. And word to you for the future with those chase points now high. And actually they just purchase a whole extra number of lines of all inclusive resort.

So IT used to be, I know when I looked into the the higher all inclusive, there were only a couple IT was like four. There were maybe two in cancer and two in jamaica. Now you can use hide points for I think it's somewhere in the order of fifty different all inclusive resorts from a lot of brands.

Are you part of? So that is yet another reason I I love using hide points. I have a higher car that I accusing points.

Of course, I transfer chaser to rewards. So yeah, that's my favorite mpt. So you guys did your honeymoon on those chase one sets?

yes. And he was just IT was a delayed onely moment. But you know, we still we made IT work and I was totally fine for us and know we weren't rushing to do anything. And I just made that that much more special, knowing that we are just getting essentially for free based on in the rules of the game.

That is awesome. Thanks for listening to choose a vy. And for all your support of our mission here, the absolute best way to support choice of I is when you sign up for your next rewards credit card to use our cards speech, I choose of our accounts such cards.

I keep this page constantly updated, so we should always be the top resource for you. Thanks for being part of our community and for your support. So okay, you got into this old million cereal deprive mindset. I'm i'm going to use that forever .

and that is now ended the piano .

of worse when i've ever more than granda is more than reusing ten.

It's new F I Carrier.

Ah thank you. You did IT. Um so okay, how do you come out of might be hypership to call that in the best, but we'll say the hyper optimization, how do you how do you change course? Because there has to be some awakening that, okay.

this is gone too far. Yeah I think IT was really when we started coming back to me and I started working and you everyone knows you know your typical internal you a lot hours. And I remember reading IT was this blogger article.

I'm not sure if there was any relation to choose fy, but someone an article called the fog of work. And it's essentially a military metaphor for a retirement. And like the fog of war, where there's like uncertainty and confusion and that legalizes during like the chaos of war. And his argument is like when you're in this faught of work, when you're in this data day grind, working long hours and just having a busy life, IT just blinds us from what truly matters. And I think taking a step back and, you know, working with my wife to find out what we really enjoy, and you writing IT down, making a less, and writing down what we want to spend our money, animal, also pursuing a Better future, really put things into perspective on where we can start spending money and where we can enjoy alive in the meantime.

Yeah, I like that. So I was the fog of work, was the article?

Yes, the fog work, I don't remember .

who is by is interesting. I just goole the fog work. I think it's actually like dog nord man, our good friend dog nord okay yeah.

it's ably was found through the trees of.

yeah, that's what it's on the military wallet outcome so yeah will link to this in the shorts and that actually reminds that I definitely need to get dug back on the show. So he, along with his daughter Carol, wrote the book, raising your money is savy family for next generation financial independence. And that was phenomenal.

Al book, I actually came out almost four years ago to the day at this point. And yeah, dog is a great resource for all things military. But Frankly, all things fight.

So yeah, need little, need little link up there. So okay, so you read this article, you can have a sense that something was out of baLance. But what we would like the next steps because there's always one, two or three things like that you can look back on and say, like, okay, this actually changed.

Yeah I think we started to prioritize traveling and spending time with our friends. So I think previously we would worry about when we were invited out to dinner. We've this can be so it's expensive and we're going to get the cheapest thing on the menu.

We're looking at the menu items beforehand and know if we want to drink. I just have a drink care and then go out. But you know, now when we're invited out, you know just sees one time expenses that we're not really batting. And I am we want to prioritize spending time with our friends, especially when we're looking busy lize, and we don't have as much free time to spend with them. So those little things is prioritizing travel to see other people too.

And we just recently, he was just last week, and we got back from a trip from seeing some medical school friends that live out in musician you previously, we would have been just shocked about spending money to go for like a long weekend, but especially when old friends are scattered across the country age. Just prioritizing those relationships, it's the compounding effect. Now we talk about that a lot and finance, but there is also an aspect of compounding and relationships. Well, I mean, have those old school childhood friends that you know, because you've been with them for so long and you can lose touch fur three to six months and get in contact with them and I was like, not a day has pass. You just jump in rate where you left .

off yeah I think that is so important. And I think what you're describing ultimately hairy is baLance. You're not saying that extreme fragility is the only pacify.

You're not saying being super spending is the only pacify. It's alright. I have set up a life that doesn't cost so much. I have optimized by using things like travel rewards that enabled me to get experiences that maybe I authorise weren't have paid for, but that I really want to do. But also, Frankly, just saying sometimes just worth spending the money like we need to bang that into people's heads like sometimes it's just worth spending the money and you have to be OK with that and sure there ways to save some money every now again. But case in point that I met my best friend from home actually fill l fia last week.

We want to see our concern and we ve got took gets last minute IT was fantastic but I was able to offset by saying to hide actually he said, no categories too higher cost eight thousand point tonight, which is absolutely nothing and and we paid for meal and the tickets, obviously but I didn't think about that twice, right, even if I had to pay for the ideal, because that kind of connection is really, really important. So yeah, I mean, the more that we can get this into people's had that when you set up this framework of a life that doesn't cost so much, everything else gets easier, and you've gotto stop trying to keep up with the five Jones, right, like I have. Does that matter to you if you are at a fifty six percent savings rate or a fifty three percent savings rate with much Better connection? Rain.

it's just about keeping some sort consistency and saving. But if you're not enjoying the journey, ong, the way and really no point to IT. Yeah, I think looking back, I always thought I was about the financial goals.

I remember the day that we paid off dead, I came home. The end of the month we paid off, I logged in. I paid off like I do at the end of every month, and I was like the month that we paid off. And I got home earlier than James at the time, and he came home and like we did and we did IT, we paid off her debt and then I surreal at the time and then afterwards that's pretty anti comac looking back and i'm like, ah right now, what do we do? I know I keep refusing your previous show is, but I remember listening to one with that was the ortheris surgeon is a bow and you guys were talking about how you know you're not like going to hit a number of a and you know just flag the sunset and you know that's not the end of IT. Like the greatest prize isn't about reaching that goal, is everything you do and learn along the way and you do together totally.

totally good. And yeah, bow was on two episodes, three, ninety six and forty, forty one. He was the one who initially coined the term the values way back in twenty seventeen.

Yeah and that's brilliant and that's just exactly what it's all about and just finding the stuff volume yeah.

and I think that sets us into the next area that I wanted to talk about this in your email you wrote, I saw fire as a way out of the often relentless field that is health care. IT was fear driven at first, but eventually LED to discovering meaning and value in my life and during my training. So this was not, hey, i'm getting out of the field of healthcare and medicine as quickly as possible. I suspect first, that had something to do with that, but I quickly morphed into something else entirely is like.

interesting. When I was at that psychoactive that we talked earlier about working long hours as a medicine, I could see know a lot of these doctors that just wanted to cut back on their hours and spending more time. And there are significant others, and their kids and their friends, but IT seemed like a lot of them, not necessarily a bad thing, but they can, in the narrative, in being a doctor, was their identity is what they did.

And I don't think a lot of them would necessarily know what to do if they stopped. And if you really never have an end point in mind, you can rationalize and justify those future expenses is not just a medicine, is just the same thing. And the corporate latter or you there's an a lura to chasing those professional milestones.

But for us, it's a very set track where we go to undergrad. My school residency fellowship, I mean, some even do an additional fellowship if you do like electoral physiology with the cardiology and then know people get their first big attending pick check. They buy a big house and a nice car and go on these expensive vacations.

And I remember hearing about these doctors, they were telling me, as a fly on the wall, meet students, and they were telling me that they're still Carrying this debit. Fifty five years old. And I get there's a lot, lot of acrisius ed, a lot of training, a lot delayed gratification.

But you like you said, there's definitely a sense of keeping up with the Joneses in a regard. And I remember, I think as Morgan houses, he said, you know, wealth is what you don't see in a tourist. You see all these big, expensive things, like a nice house and a nice car.

But reality, that money that is spent and gone forever, and then that money, that that money could earn is also gone forever when you factor, are in compounding and investing. So looking back on IT, you know, IT was fear driven. At first. I was scared that I was going to end up at fifty five years old and having this dead paid off and not really living life that I really wanted to live. So I think that really put us into the next step of starting our financial journey.

Yeah so kind of next step. That's an interesting jumping off point because we're talked a lot about five. But also, as I read in your email at the beginning, this doesn't stop when IT comes to personal finance, the optimization, the next step that even they are return to basics of simplicity. How else has this new found mentality about five impacted your life in a positive way? What other areas have you seen IT?

Yeah, I think we really started to focus more on our health and just overall well being. I know we talked about like over optimize zing, and I think this seeped into our approach to health and wellness as well. And embarrassing how extremely complex work out programs i've done in the past where in just needs to be simple.

And I think talking about health stuff and find stuff that goes hand and hand because if we have all this money and not health and what's all this for, and I think that's why to create that, the dialogue is shifting. This community is great that you've been bringing on a new podcast, gas like doctor bobbi devotes, who talks a lot about evidence based literature in the terms of living long and also living well at the same time. So I think those next steps that we did, the first thing we did when we moved back to port land, was we got just a simple home gym set up, and that was as simple as he was, like a hundred dollar squat rack that will serve purpose as a pull up bar.

We have a spin bike, a couple cattle ls and a couple dumb lls. And that was about IT. We really shifted our approach from iran track.

And across country in college, we shifted our approach from aggressive cardio and heavy lifting to more body weight in coastlands. And I know you talk a lot about the zone two cardio. So we just been focusing on that together.

And you're just making things more accessible and making things easier with less of a barrier to entry is huge in terms of keeping things consistent. So when I come on from work, it's just this equipment, just stand at me and as well work out. We are opposed to getting in the car, going to the gym, changing ing home. I am already on the time with the busy schedule, and I think no consistency is key. So just having that easy and accessible IT was really important.

Yeah, there is really something to that. I know James clear talked about that significantly and atomic habits in terms of just making IT easy, right? Like the more barriers you can can when you have that home gym, no matter how simpler, complex IT is in house, it's right. There is easy if you want to go the gym, lay your clothes hot, put your shoes out and and just make IT so that it's harder not to do IT than to do IT.

In essence, exactly. And I think again, just focusing on the basics. There's a great guy.

He's on youtube. His name is kyle budges. He talks a lot about the basics and body way exercises. And really essentially all you need is a push up, a pull up and a squat movement. And this is great for busy people to great for mom's, dad's people, hectic work schedule.

And he essentially does two sets of those three exercises, maybe six days a week he used at high frequency training. But because he doesn't push as byte limits every day, he can come back and do IT the next day. And there is a lower risk of injury, but at the same time, he's also building strength and muscle.

I read somewhere that I essentially you only need is like two sets. Two times a week is the minimum amount you need to build strength. And hyperdrive phy always said the higher intensity range, like six to ten rep range, but just that minimal amount is such a low barrier to entry, building more strength while also mitigating the risk of injury of you know cardio or heavy lifting .

yeah IT is amazing just how easy IT can be. And of course, there's always different degrees, right? Like you can make things as complex as you want, but it's the seem of personal finance. You can make IT as complex as you want.

Does that mean you're going to get Better results? No, probably not, especially with fit, like if you're not looking to get to a world class level at anything which essentially none of us are right around to zero. So do you need all of these crazy optimizations? No, probably not anything. You just have to find what works for you like for most people who are just living Normal, relatively set tary lives even if they don't think about IT like honestly, like just walking, just trying to get x number steps today, like the ten thousand is essentially made up, but it's directly accurate and it's pretty hard to get ten thousand, but you're going to be how come and healthier. If you walk eight to twelve thousand sub day, then if you walk in the Normal, which really announced two to four thousand is what i've seen in my own life.

Yeah, yeah. exactly. I overall the goal now, as a post, like he said, being in the athlete is just feeling more comfortable and strong, doing just a wide variety of activity.

So you know, being able to go in hype with friends, go for a long hike, you know, play for sb and know we are playing Spike ball this last weekend and just a lot of movement. But you know, when you do these things ahead of time and you focus on strength without injury, then you feel comfortable doing these things without you all. My god, i'm going to wake up for the next day.

Everything's gonna hurt. And no, I, after running for so long, I had ended up with two torn hit player rooms like to slip disk and that's why i'm just not necessarily focus on that heavy lifting anymore. Just being able to do a wide righty activities with all my friends, I think jump me back to bobbie device podcast.

He talks a lot about, you know, those pillars as a health and one of being those social interactions as well. And being able to do a lot of things comfortably in just a lot of different activities is a great way to mix those two pillars. And I used to be a big solo exerciser, but i'm just really trying to connect with other people while doing things that I like to do as well, just like hiking with friends, are going backpacking or just casually running very, very slow with the grouper. Even doing spin by classes is just that, that little effort of mixing those two things that will allow you to live longer, but also live well yeah.

right. And how can you stack things? That's another James clear, right? Like how can you put a couple of these things together so that, well, the individual parts are wonderful, but together it's even Better in essence?

Yeah, Bobby, doctor abby was on episode four ninety eight and he has a gift, mentioned a podcast called live long and well with doctor abby and will link those up in the shoots. But yes, just about simplicity. In your case, getting out getting out of nature is wonderful.

Getting out of nature with friends or your wife, it's even Better. And that doesn't cost all back of a lot, right? IT cost virtually nothing.

Yeah no, it's definitely just the simple thing. I think one of the things that we added that I think made a huge difference and just our health and how is a flexibility is we read this book has got movie DNA by Kitty bowen. And SHE is a biomechanical.

And SHE essentially says that we don't move is naturally and through as many four ranges emotions as we did previously. And SHE even talked about SHE was accomplishing all these incredible cardiovascular feeds, but he just her body just felt terrible, because when he was biking and running, SHE was only moving her body through a very limited range of motion. And what he recommended is obviously stretching in mobility, but also moving through deep ranges emotions throughout your day.

So one of things we did was we sit on the four now to eat dinners and lunches and sometimes breakfast. So we don't have a dining room table, we just have a little coffee table and then we have it's to hiding the meditation yoga pillows, but we just sit on them and it's amazing. I am you're basically stretching for twenty today and where you're opening up your hips, you're kind of shifting around, moving in different positions.

Now we have a doorway pull up are that will, every time I walk under us, hang on IT for twenty thirty seconds. And amazing how good that is for your shoulder house. So her book talks a lot about that. He goes more into the biomechanical aspects of IT, but it's a great read for anyone wanting to think about improving their flexibility or feeling Better in the bodies.

I ve never heard that one. I mean, I, you know, I found a lot else stuff. Move your DNA by kd bom. Okay, we will put them in the shown. As for sure, i'm going to buy that literally the second we get off here, see if my library has IT, which hopefully will but yeah, even just little things like that you said like goods known as a dead hang, right?

Just find something like a plus bar or something through just hang off of and yeah, i've heard of over and over, but for some reason I don't have a pull bar in my door from here for twelve box. I could get one of those and that would that would make IT easy. But yeah, I i've thought about doing that for years and I haven't done IT.

So I it's amazing how, like, yeah, can you just take action on this? So well, i've got i've got marching waters for this to get myself a pool bar and get myself that book. I mean, I try to put my money where my mouth is, in essence, with the show of, like I say, every single time we do an episode, hope there's something at least one thing somebody can walk away with to take action on.

And I think you've provided a number of them, but those are just for even somebody like me who has been in the five world for fifteen years. At this point, there's always something, something little you can just do to make your life Better. And I think but you said you can maybe go a little too far gn terms of overoptimism, but when you have the north star of simplicity, IT just helps guide you towards a Better life. And I think that ultimately is what you're doing here. And I love just kind of as we close out here, are there any other aspects of that living a Better life that you wanted to talk about before we are say goodbye?

I think I hit on all the main ones, but that was really reason why I wanted to share the stories. I just wanted to give some hope to. Those are just starting out their financial journey or those who are already on IT IT absolutely is possible to save and reach your financial goals and still have fulfilling life, whatever that means to you in the process. So definitely just get started where we are, the matter how small, and you will be amazed by the progress.

Can capacity Better than that? Kyle, thank you so much. We're coming on. This is really, really great. Anything can be helpful for a lot of .

people and that my bread pleasure.

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