Roundup With Ginger | Zero-Based Thinking: How to Rethink Your Life Choices
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Hello and welcome to Chooseify. Today on the show, we have a fun one. This is a real interesting, far-ranging conversation with my good friend, Ginger. And we talk a little bit about a lot of things. So we talk about live events. I just got back from economy. Talk about different types of these live events, why I keep showing up to them. And some of my takeaways from this particular event and just more broadly events in general. We

We also talk about some travel that we have upcoming. And frankly, what about travel helps us define our future lives? And what does a great life look like for you? And what would that thought exercise look like as you work through this, as you live life and as you realize, hey, this is important to me. And sometimes you realize that at home. Sometimes you realize that when you're traveling. And I think just as a thought experiment, it really is a fun thing

to just get a little bit closer to an ideal life. And while that sounds like pie in the sky for a lot of people, those of us in the FI community, we can live into those ideal lives. We can get pretty darn close. And I think that's, again, part of the fun. And yeah, we talk about a whole lot of other things, including my workout plan, some travel rewards, wins, all sorts of things. This is gonna be a really good one. I think you're gonna enjoy it. And with that, welcome to Choose FI. ♪♪

Ginger, it is so good to see you. So good to see you too. I love doing these episodes and I'm excited to catch up. Yeah, me too. It's been a couple months. I know we did the Getting Personal with Personal Finance episode a couple months ago, which was really wonderful. And I greatly appreciate you interviewing me. That was a fun change on the podcast. But yeah, we haven't done one of these Roundup episodes in a while. Yeah. Well, should I start us off?

Do it. I want to know about economy because as we are recording this, I think you probably got back like a week ago. Yeah. Yeah. A couple of days ago. And so, right. This episode is going to go out in April sometime, I believe. But yeah, I went to the economy conference in Cincinnati, Ohio in...

in kind of the end-ish of March, we'll say. It's usually sometime towards the end of March each year. And yeah, ginger, this was my third straight year going to economy. And I kind of bill it as the world's largest FI gathering, even though you would never guess from the name of the conference, right? Economy, and it's M-E at the end.

But it really has turned into the biggest FI gathering anywhere. So we're pretty fortunate these days to have a lot of FI events. You know, there's obviously the camp FIs are some of the most well-known, but then there is the FinTalks cruise. Now there's still camp mustache, which actually happens a couple of spaces and, uh,

Actually, interestingly, there are some new things that are going on. There's the FI Service Corps, and they're doing different community service projects, which is really awesome. My friend Kristen Knapp is doing like a five friends travel and basically just taking trips with people in the FI community.

And there's TribeFi. So my buddy Rob from Australia has one. And of course, there's the Bali Phi Freedom Retreat. And yeah, I'm sure a couple others, the pioneers of the Slow Phi Retreat. So anyway, long story short, there are a lot of Phi events these days. And each one has their own flavor. And I think...

We've talked, Ginger, you and I have talked. I know we actually formally met in person at the Vegas, the extraordinary event that we did with the Donegans. Each one of these events has their own tone to it. And I think for people who are looking for something that's akin to a conference, but it's still a FI event where you have a lot of time to hang out, a lot of time to get to know people. I think that's really why I go to these events, why most people go to these events. I think economy is kind of a good...

a good middle ground in that. Yeah, there are a lot of like,

workshops and deep dives and breakouts and main stage speakers. So it does feel like a conference, but Diana does a really wonderful job of scheduling it so that you have two hours for lunch every day. We have plenty of time for breakfast in the hotel or to go out with friends. You have plenty of time between the last of the day's events and then the nighttime activity, which is usually something on the main stage as well. And yeah, it just, it feels nice. It feels like

There's a good six hours a day where you can just hang out with friends, which is pretty awesome. So, yeah, I don't know if I answered your question. I asked a question. But you kind of, sort of my motivation for asking, which is, you know, I'm always wondering, like, is this a place that,

Yeah. And I do think I would really get into the workshoppy lecture type thing. That's definitely me. But I also have heard that economy is very much about people who have met each other in this community kind of meeting up and hanging out.

What if you are going and you are going by yourself and you don't know anybody, do you think it's easy to sort of integrate into that community or like speak to the introverts out there? Okay. Yeah. And what's actually funny, and you didn't know this, but the event that I host each year at economy is the Friday night, the opening event. And, um,

It is probably unfortunately named. So it's called speed friendshiping. And that brings to mind like speed dating, which is like, oh no, I've got two minutes with this person. I need to find out everything about them. That's not what this is. So the event is set up precisely for,

for those introverts who like me, I say this every year on the main stage. I'm like, if I came to this conference and this was 10 years ago and I knew nobody, I would be extremely daunted at looking at a group of 500 people knowing nobody that would be like a special form of hell for me basically. So what we do is we have these tables of eight and there were, I think there were 45 plus tables this year and we have a prompt and

We get 25 minutes per table, basically. And like each person, somebody keeps time and each person gets three or so minutes and you go around and you answer the problem. You know, who am I? Where am I from? And then whatever that prompt is like, where are you on your path to five? How did you find five? What is an ideal day look like in your post five world? You know, just all sorts of random things.

And you get to know those other seven people. And then we do like a little switcheroo where everybody gets up and, you know, we facilitate it and you move tables and you get to know another seven people. So this year, those people, you'd meet 21 people. And then invariably when you walk into that crowd the next time out of those 500 people, you're going to see 21 familiar faces at the very least.

So that's kind of the concept. And yeah, I mean, not for nothing, but like, and I know it almost sounds trite at this point, Ginger, I suspect, but, but it is so true. And that's why we all repeat it over and over again. It's like five people. The five community is the most open and welcoming community I've ever seen bar none end of story. And I,

I think unlike any other community I've ever seen or any other conference I've ever seen, like when you see someone standing by themselves, it seems like a lot of people gravitate toward that person. Like, Hey, come on into the conversation. Hey, why don't you come to lunch with us? Like, I don't think I can even count on one finger. The number of people that I saw that were just kind of isolated and didn't do anything and just kind of,

And maybe I'm wrong, frankly, but I don't really think so. And that's the nice thing. Like in the hotel in the morning, or at least in the Fairfield where I stayed, there were just dozens of five people. And you came in, you grabbed your breakfast, and you just sat down wherever and you struck up a conversation. And so I think it's really welcoming. You know, of course, to each his own in terms of which type of...

of event you'd probably prefer. I know actually my brother, Scott went to his first five and he came to economy and while he had a really good time, I think he deduced that a camp fi or something smaller would be slightly better for him. I think for people who are looking to kind of have a captive audience, have a smaller group, I don't know. Camp eyes are a little bigger these days, but maybe 50 to 80 people. And like you're there for three days in a very small area, let's say.

And you do get to know people more in depth, I would say at that. So if it were me and my personal scenario, I probably would go to a camp five first, but for those that want a larger environment and maybe more of those, like we said, the, the deep dives, the workshops, the main stage speakers, like economy is that wonderful middle ground, I would say. Yeah. I want to go. I have one friend who might be into going. Cause I feel like, Oh, it'd be better if I could bring a friend. And,

And she's like the one person who will talk about compound interest with me endlessly. But the thing I've kind of kept from her and also I don't totally know, but like it's kind of expensive. It's hard to sell that to people who are, you know, on a path.

Yeah, no, that's true. That is true. Yeah. I mean, I think pretty much any of these events are going to, they're going to add up, you know, in some way, right? The, the ticket costs some amount of money. You have to travel there. You have to get a hotel and food. So yeah, I mean, there's, you're right. That is true. So clearly if, if,

Just like, I mean, and this might be just blanket advice for anybody and not just about economy or a conference or a campfire or any of these events, but like if money is really that scarce, yeah, this probably doesn't make sense for you. Right. We have a ton of choose if I local groups and all those events are free. You can show up, you can meet people in your local area. That's probably the place to start, frankly, for just about anybody. But yeah. And it's not, obviously money is always, there's always decisions. Yeah.

I think that's an important thing, regardless of whether money is truly scarce or not. It's still a value-based decision, regardless of whether you have a 70% savings rate or a 2% savings rate. So you have to make decisions. But I know my life has been enriched

By going to these events. That's the word I was going to use. I was going to say, yeah, I'm not really talking about like making a decision between like paying for the groceries or going to economy. I'm talking about like it's just can be hard for a lot of us to spend money. And my the place that I have kind of gotten to it is like, will this enrich my life or not? Yeah. And I think, yeah.

Of course, it's one of those things, unfortunately, you won't know until you go, which is a hard thing. But yeah, I mean, I have yet to meet the person who went to a FI event and absolutely hated it and said it was a total waste of money. So, you know, that's my two cents. But again, there are flavors for everything, right? Like it's very different to fly off to Bali and to go to a five to seven day event and have to pay for that than it is to go to a

local Camp Fi or a Chooseify meetup. So, you know, I think there's different entry points, we'll say.

Yeah. Well, fingers crossed. I'm going to try to convince my friend. And if not, I am going to just try to go by myself. Okay. Go to the friendship dating. Yeah, I think you'll like it. I think you'll like it. I would do that. I know you were like, oh, it's not like speed dating, but I would do it. You would do it? I think that would be fun. Okay. Yeah, really. Stay tuned. Okay. Well, let's get a little bit more specific. Okay.

What was one of the sessions that really stuck out to you or that you are still thinking about? Yeah, there were a couple. So there was one gentleman on the main stage. I'm not sure how to pronounce his last name, sadly, but his name is Brian Suddith, I think, S-U-D-D-I-T-H. And his was actually on being more mindful with food waste, actually. Mm-hmm.

And while it sounds kind of niche, I think it's kind of broadly applicable in terms of just thinking about things you buy. And I think...

sadly, a lot of us, even in the fight community, we're somewhat wasteful with our purchases or we're not really mindful, let's say. And I love your thoughts on this ginger, obviously, but basically it sounds elementary when you think about it, but I suspect if most of us looked at how much we throw out in terms of food waste, we'd be pretty shocked at how much it is. I think the figure he said was somewhere on the order of about a third of

of all dollars spent on food are ultimately wasted. And don't quote me on that, but it's somewhere really close to that. And what's interesting is his family has been on this path now for years, I think since COVID ultimately. And they document mostly for themselves, but now it's turned into a thing.

How much they waste. And really, Ginger, it's shocking. Like to the point where the first year they did it, it was somewhere on the order of like $30. And that's not a typo, $30. And now they've gotten it down to like single digit dollars. And we're talking an entire calendar year for a family, which is crazy, right? But it is, again, it's just being intentional. I think that's the thing. So when you buy something, don't just buy it for giggles. Buy it because you're going to consume it. Buy it because...

Hey, also taking a look at your fridge or in your freezer or your pantry or all of the above and saying, hey, what do we have in here? What is going to expire next? How could I build a meal around this thing that's going to expire? How can I make purchases based on future meals that I might use instead of just speculatively buying a couple dozen things like we might do? What would it look like if I didn't want to waste time?

any food and that even comes down to taking food on your plate and wasting it right like they try to calculate that kind of thing too so if food is going in the garbage aside from bones and things like that that doesn't count but if real edible food goes in the garbage

they counted on this tally. And I think that also then gets to, hey, sometimes I talked about this years ago, like, you know, the inner eater in me sometimes sees a big, a big pot of food and wants to just keep eating.

But what if that then messed up the leftovers, right? So I ate, I cooked a meal that theoretically would be enough for three meals, but I decided to go crazy one night. Well, I just drastically increased the cost per meal on that. So it's like mindful eating also, which is an interesting way that this, it all ties together, Ginger. Yeah. Yeah.

I do think it's something a lot of people are interested in because, you know, we're always told dial in housing and transportation and kind of when you have done those things, it's like, what's the next biggest thing? And it's food. It's food for all of us. And so I think it is something that a lot of us think about. Yeah. I mean, food aside from...

like the mandatory cost, you know, housing, I guess you could make an argument over whether transportation is mandatory, but we'll, we'll go with the fact that it is for most people. Yeah. I mean, food is the next biggest line item for the vast majority of people and it adds up. I mean, it really adds up. And especially like when we're not intentional and we just graze or we don't plan, like, I think, you know, I would, I would tie all of these things together is you need to plan for your meals because if you're just, if you're waiting until the last minute,

That's stressful because almost invariably you're going to then go out and get something unhealthy that's more expensive or go to even the local grocery store and grab something that's ready to eat. But again, that's going to be more expensive than had you planned and cooked at home and it's

almost certainly going to be more expensive and less healthy, I guess. So I think this is just one of those things where, sure, is it practical to think that I'm only going to waste three or $10 of food in a year? No, probably not. But can I directionally get there? Can I aspire to that? Like, will that make my food waste almost certainly go down? I think that it will. Yeah. Yeah.

I shared recently that we're trying to budget more than we ever have before. Like we're doing the Monarch money thing. And one thing that has been rough to see are the food numbers. And so this thing happened at the end of the month, last month, where we were like, oh, we still have four more days and Monarch is going to yell at us again if we go to the grocery store. So like, let's not go until the first. And we were laughing about it, but...

Because it seems so silly to just be like, oh, just wait three more days. And yet, I do think there is value to that. Because in those few days, we were able to be a little bit more creative. So even though...

Oh, it's sort of arbitrary. You're just trying to get to this day. But I do think there is something to like when you're really measuring something, it does alter your choices. It does alter how you think about things. So it's something that I'm working on getting our numbers down. So I'll let you know if we can. I like that. If we come up with anything brilliant.

What is the Monarch Money thing? So is that a platform? The way that you described it was as if it were like a special thing, basically. It's a special thing. I thought everyone knew about Monarch Money. It's the budgeting app that everyone loves now that Mint Mobile is not Mint Mobile. Mint is dead.

Okay. Yeah. And so they had this beginning of the year thing where you got kind of a deal. So I thought, okay, now's the time. So you connect it to your bank accounts, you connect it to your credit cards, and then you can set a budget and see, categorize everything.

it was kind of annoying to figure out. I spent a lot of time on some things that were tricky, but now that it's figured out, it's wonderful because now I can log in at any time and see like, here's how much we have spent on food this month. And here's kind of our goal for that. And, you know, down the line. Yeah. So for my purposes, it's really great. And when I was thinking about doing a really intense budgeting, my plan was, Oh,

Oh, I'll do this for one or two months. And then I got this deal on Monarch. So I was like, okay, we'll do it for a year. And now I can really see the value of doing it for a year. There's too much that's from month to month is different. Like I'm not going to get the right kind of data because what I'm ultimately want is like, what do we spend in a year? Really?

not just what do we think we spend in a year. And so I can see how so many things are seasonal in our family. So I need to get like that bigger picture. I love that. And yeah, I think this is one of those areas where the phrase life is lumpy comes in, right? It's like...

It's kind of cute to say like, oh, I can just take my monthly expenses and multiply by 12. But the world doesn't really work that way because, yeah, you have things that hit annually. You also have just uncertain things that pop up all the time. And yeah, if you just have that one month snapshot, it's not going to get you there.

Yeah. Of course. Is one month better than zero months? Yeah, of course. But yeah, I think having a real picture of, hey, what does my life cost over a year? I think that's very important. Yeah. The thing that inspired me to do this was having a conversation with another person in this community. And we were talking about like our fine numbers and his life is very different from mine, right? Like very different from mine. And we had the same fine number. And I'm like, what?

We both need to dig into this a little bit instead of... I think we just kind of pulled a round number out. And so, yeah, I want to figure out what that number really is. Yeah, I think that's important. And yeah, if you're listening to this and you haven't taken action on...

Just like the very first steps of FI, or frankly, if you're on the path to FI and you haven't readdressed this in a long time, I think it's important to do the exercise of writing down a couple of things. And it's really your net worth. I think that's critical.

critical. Hopefully most of us have a sense of that, but Ginger, you know as well as I do, sometimes you don't track things or you lose sight of it and you think, oh, I'm in good shape. But unless you see that pattern, unless you see the trend, sometimes you take your eye off the ball a little bit and you think you're doing well or you think you're doing poorly, but it could be the other way. And, oh, wow, the market was up 20 odd percent last year. Look at my net worth and it reinvigorates you or something. But

I think just tracking is so, so, so important. So, I mean, for anybody out there, like just go log into all your accounts, write down what the account values are, write down any liabilities you have, any debt that you owe, and just basically take the assets minus liabilities. And that gets you your net worth really in a very simple nutshell.

And yeah, I think writing down, you know, to put my accountant's hat on your income statement, we'll say, but, but really, Hey, what comes in every month and what goes out and really ideally ginger over a year, right? Like let's look at what is my income minus what are my expenses? And that gets you a sense of, Hey, what am I saving every year?

and what's left over, I think it's just really important. And obviously we know we can't calculate our fine number unless we have a real strong sense of what does my life cost? And that's why I love that you're doing that over 12 months. Yeah. Speaking of being in good shape...

This is going to be my transition, but now you said it like three minutes ago. You told me you've been getting a lot of questions about your workout routine. I want to talk about it. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. It's been, uh, it's been really cool. It was funny because the, the getting personal with personal finance episode that you did with Ron, who in fairness is a comedian, but I think he was that hopefully, hopefully being mostly true where he called my arms meat cannons. That was the most amazingly hilarious thing ever. Um, yeah, I, it's shocking. Like I'm a 45 year old guy and I'm, I'm in really pretty amazing shape. I don't usually like speak so highly of myself, but I'm in pretty, pretty amazing shape. And it's,

It's all been this, this new program that I've done. It was not that new. The program I've been doing with my trainer, Dean Turner, he's been on the podcast a couple of times and yeah, ginger, it's just been the greatest thing ever. I have had the opposite experience lately, which is that I, I'm a big walker and I will go on like hour and a half walks a couple of times a week, very consistently and have been for years.

which is all to say that's why this has been so upsetting. And within the last month, it's been like extremely painful to walk for five minutes. Oh no. Yeah. So I ended up, I finally had to just like bite the bullet and go to the doctor and go to PT and everything. And apparently it can be fixed. You know, it's about building muscle and compensation and blah, blah, blah. But oh my gosh, it's been really hard. Yeah.

And makes me think about what is important in your life and how it sounds silly to say, oh, I have this small injury and now I can't go on my morning walks. But it's a huge deal to me. And it makes you think about all the things people say about like if you don't have your health.

you don't have anything. And I am so feeling that and was so just ready to throw any amount of money at this problem and have thrown a lot of money at it because this is the whole deal with a high deductible plan. Oh, goodness. Gosh, I just cannot wait to get back to doing what I could do two months ago. It's been really hard.

Yeah. Oh, goodness. Well, first off, I'm sorry. That obviously really stinks. And it doesn't sound silly at all about the, oh, I can't go on my morning walk. I mean, that's a really important part of a good life for a lot of us is being outside, getting some sun, getting some physical activity, just maybe talking with a friend or significant other, a family member, or just...

just looking at nature or listening to a podcast, an audio book, like there's a lot of amazing stuff. I mean, that's actually one thing I wanted to talk about and I'll get back to my sidebar here, but what is an ideal day in your fi life look like? And that's, that was one of the prompts that we did on that speed friendshiping that came up with a conversation I had with a friend of mine recently. And I thought it would be perfect for speed friendshiping, but I think it's really important. And frankly, in my ideal day, I'm outside every day for at least an hour.

So believe me, I totally feel you on that. But I think what's interesting is a lot of us have realized that a lot of the science is coming to no matter what type of exercise you do, whether it be running or anything along along the whole spectrum, individual sports.

going to the gym, like building muscle is really, really important to living a healthy life. And it's not about being vain. It's not about just like looking like a muscle head or something crazy like that. It's just, it's really, really important to being a functional human being, especially as we age. And I think we're all susceptible to age-related muscle loss, which is called sarcopenia. And it's just the fact of the matter. Like everyone's

every year past 35, you lose one, two, 3% of your muscle mass. So you have to be actively working against that loss and then trying to gain in the process. Because frankly, like I think most of us at 70 or,

or beyond want to still be able to lift our suitcase into the overhead bin or lift up a grandchild or great grandchild, like simple things that you take for and walk up a couple of flights of steps. You take them for granted and it's not like, it's not guaranteed that those things go away. You just have to actively work at it. And I think it's really important. So yeah, I mean this workout regimen that I've been doing constantly,

kind of the really cool aspect of it is it almost, it feels like fi in a sense that it feels like a cheat code because ginger, like I go to the gym and I look around and everyone is working harder than me, quote unquote harder. They're sweating, they're grunting there. They look, you know, a lot, many of them look altogether miserable and I'm just sitting there chilling. I go to the gym for maybe an hour, hour and 15 minutes.

I exercise for about 15 of those 75 minutes. I walk for the other 60. I literally walk around the gym and I'm,

I'll exercise, like I said, 13 to 15 minutes each time, three to four times a week at most. I never sweat. I'm never miserable. I'm never hurt. And I, well, again, this is not about comparison, but you see a lot of people, they're still lifting the same weights they were lifting and I'm getting increasingly stronger every time. And it's just because when you find the cheat code, again, it's like fi, you just realize, oh, wow, this actually works.

So obviously the clear question is, okay, Brad, well, what does this actually mean? So I think it's the principles that matter. So I actually use machines for most of them because those are very targeted to build very specific muscles. So you do a tricep dip machine or a tricep pushdown machine that is very targeted for your triceps. You do a chest press machine and triceps.

that is very targeted for mostly your pec muscles, your chest. There's some always ancillary muscles that get worked on these machines. But I think the big thing is,

It's ultimately about each set. So when you start a set of exercise, it's that the last two reps, let's say last two repetitions slow down involuntarily. So against your will, those reps just take longer because I think frankly, ginger, like most of us have no idea. We go into the gym, we pick up a random weight, we do it for some random number of reps and

And we just stop and we think we've done something. I mean, yeah, you've done a little bit better than sitting on the couch, but like in terms of actually doing something, progressing, you've done virtually nothing if those last couple of reps have not slowed down against your will. So that's where the muscle is built is like the last couple of reps. So I think for anybody listening to this, it's like on, let's say that chest press machine, you want to be in like the, let's say six to 12 rep range.

And now every machine is going to be different. So it's almost weight agnostic. But obviously, if you go to the same gym, you're going to use the same machine. So if you sit on it the first time and you get to 12 reps and that last rep is not even close to slowing down, then on the next set, you add weight and you eventually get into that

little window where it's between six and 12 reps. And again, once you've been built up to 12 reps on the first set, then you add more weight. So it actually ginger, like it actually makes sense. Like there's some purpose to this. It's like I walk in, I know what my weight is because I've jotted it down from last time I take notes. And once I progressed to the point where that said I'm getting to 12 reps and it's, it doesn't slow down, then I know I have to add weight and you just, it's

it's rinse and repeat. So it's really wonderful. I basically do six exercises for upper body and I'll do two sets of each. I'll basically, the reason why I walk so much is I take a three to five minute rest between each set. So no joke, like I'm there for an hour walking and I'm there for, like I said, about 12 to 15 minutes actually doing exercise.

Because when you get to the point where the last rep or two, and that's where the muscle is built, is slowing down, it's really hard to come back after 30 seconds or a minute or even two minutes and do another set. Because you're at the point where you're pretty close to failure. So I think that's another kind of weird thing you see people doing at the gym is like, they'll just stop doing a set. And then just like randomly, 25 seconds later, they'll pick the weights back up. And it's like, that last set could not have been very intense.

If you're just randomly picking the weights back up 25 or 30 seconds later and doing another set. And really the point is it has to be a pretty intense set in order to build this muscle. And I think for anybody out there, like you're going to be shocked.

at the progress you see just using those principles. So another principle is perfect form, not swinging weights. Like you'll see ginger people do weird stuff, like to try to like, I don't know who they're trying to prove it to. Cause nobody cares at the gym, but it's like, I'll see people doing bicep curls and they're like,

swinging the weights, they're swinging their body. And it's like, come on, you got to like not have an ego here. Like the point is getting stronger and living a healthier life. It's not proving to the person at the next bench from you that you can lift anything.

35 pounds, not really 20 pounds, which is probably what you should have been lifting based on all the swinging you're doing. So it's like Google, just Google dumbbell bicep curls or chest press machine or triceps dips machine or assisted pull-up machine. Like the row machine is another one that I do not the rower, but the, uh, the actual weights. And I mean, that's like a day for me. That's upper body. It's like chest press the lat pull down machine. It's that row. It's

It's a overhead press, let's say, and then a tricep and a bicep. You can just Google all this. And like your gym is going to look a little different than mine, of course, but find the name of the machine, life fitness, tricep dip machine, Google that for a YouTube video, how to do that perfectly. And like, you want to go slow. You want to take your time. You don't want to rush through anything and it has to be perfect form. And I guarantee you, Ginger, I guarantee you, you will be shocked at your progress, like shocked beyond comprehension.

Have you ever had an injury or something physically that has made you feel your age? Has made you think about aging in a different way or your stage? Injury? No. So the first ravages of age have started with me. And I don't know if this has reached you yet, but my eyes, I've noticed are...

I have to hold the phone a little bit farther away, a little bit farther. It's only at night for right now. And it's only when I'm wearing my contacts. I don't know for any ophthalmologists out there, if you have any reason why that might be. But so when I have my glasses on, it's fine. And when it's not nighttime, but yeah. So that is like the one ravage of age that I've noticed. And I was like,

Oh, come on. I didn't think this was going to happen, but yeah, I mean, I have not, I used to get hurt when I was doing my old workout program and it's not to castigate like CrossFit or anything. CrossFit's great, but it was my own fault. But with this new program, like again, because everything is under control and I'm not forcing anything, I'm not compensating with other muscles or trying to do weird stuff that's not intended. Like I really pretty much can't get hurt.

which I know is a big statement, but it just, it helps minimize the incidence of injury dramatically. So did that explanation make sense? Yeah. Yeah.

One of the things that unfortunately this has made me realize is like, I am so annoying talking to all of my friends about my back. Okay. I did. I have to watch myself because this is like not a road I want to go down where I'm constantly like, Oh, let me tell you about every pain that I had when it's like such a part of your life. And it's like so upsetting. It's just like, Oh my gosh, I've been talking about it way too much.

Well, I mean, I get it that anything actionable for the audience with the injury or anything you do differently. Yeah, this is probably terrible to say, but I'm going to share it in case it's you'll see why it's maybe terrible. So I have a high deductible.

And the whole problem with insurance, right, is that you have no clue. You've no clue what anything is going to cost. And I even tried to get this information one time when I was at the PTs and they were like, oh, we don't know. Maybe someday we'll know. OK. So by the time I finally got accurate information.

about what these appointments were going to be, it was like maybe $300. Okay. And I had all these sessions booked for the month. I was like, I cannot pay like $4,000 for PT. Just, I can't. I mean, I could, but I can't, you know? Yeah, of course. So the next time I went in, I just said, Hey, like, I can't come here anymore. Give me the whole program.

I am great with homework. Just tell me everything now and I will do it on my own. And she was awesome. She totally did that for me and was very much like...

If you need extra help, you can email me. So I know that's sort of terrible because I get how there could really be an advantage to going and they do some extra things besides just teaching you the exercises. But for me, when it was like, okay, you really just need to build up this particular muscle set. It's like, I don't want to pay $4,000 to do that. And then I was really pleased with, I just asked and then they were, you know, great about it. So I wish I had done that like,

two weeks before, but I did it now. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And that is one of the real frustration of the many frustrations of our health insurance industry and healthcare industry here in the US. I think that's, yeah, not having any idea what anything costs is maybe the most maddening. I know that actually reminded me of some three websites that I passed along in my newsletter a while back. There's one called

MD, so like medical doctor, mdsave.com. And if you're able to get the code, it's called the CPT code for your procedure, and you should be able to get that from your doctor if they're prescribing a procedure or a test or something like that, you can actually put it into this site

And you can get like very specific, really quotes in essence from obviously legitimate providers in whatever radius you select. I think they let you choose, I don't know, 10 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles, whatever it may be. And it's shocking how much...

you can save. I think I had a CT scan a number of years ago and I think I paid, unfortunately, because I didn't know about this, I paid like $2,000. I think it was $2,100 if I remember correctly, which is ridiculous. And it would have cost a fraction of that, like three to $600 had I gone through MD Save. And it's the same CT scan. It might have even been the same provider, frankly, or another reputable provider in my area. And I was like, oh, come on, this is so ridiculous. So that's one.

Ulta Lab Tests. So U-L-T-A-L-A-B-T-E-S-T-S.com, Ulta Lab Tests. If you're looking for one-off blood testing, you can just buy individual blood tests. So I actually recently had...

my vitamin D checked. My vitamin D is chronically low and I've been kind of working on really getting outside a lot more often, getting a lot of sun. I actually have a tan. I had a tan in Richmond, Virginia in February. Don't worry, not a skin cancer issue, but I just got a lot of sun and I wanted to test my vitamin D and it's something you can just buy one-off, get

blood tests. And I was able to, I think I'm, I have quest diagnostics near me and I just, they help facilitate the appointment. It was easy as can be. I forget. It was probably like $17 or something like that. It was great to be able to just do that. And then finally, the other one that I've used recently is a Mark Cuban's prescription drug site called cost

Plusdrugs.com. And this I saved a fortune on. So I had my doctor send... I unfortunately had one prescription. I don't normally have prescriptions, but send it there. And I was able to save somewhere on the order of like 70% ginger. It was crazy. So I...

have used two of the three of these sites personally. I've not used mdsave.com personally, but I know I've referred a lot of people who have. So I feel pretty good talking about all three of these. It's just a nice way to save money depending on what your situation is. And yeah, I think ultimately, just like anything in this country, we have to do the best we can with this health fiasco that we have. Yeah. Do you know about GoodRx? Does everyone know about GoodRx? Tell us. I do know about it, but tell us.

Like, I don't know how or why it works, but if you download the app, GoodRx, it will give you... You can put in the drug that you need and it will give you a coupon and show you like where, again, like within five miles or whatever, where you can get the cheapest. So this is something that I have been thinking about lately because...

Our insurance changed and suddenly a medication that my son needs, which used to be like $50, went up to $240. Wow. What? What?

So I went up and looked at GoodRx, found a coupon. And then, so the thing is, is then you're not using insurance. You're just going through whatever. And now it's $30. What? What? I don't know. I don't know. Like I said, I don't know how it works.

Because you don't pay for it. It's just a free app, right? It's just a free app. Yeah. I've used that before. It's totally inexplicable. No idea, but it does work. I've definitely used that in the past. I think I wound up getting a little lower price on using cost plus drugs in this particular instance. But yeah, I mean,

It's totally inexplicable. I don't understand it. But yeah, good RX. Thank you for adding that as the fourth item on the list. Yeah. And part of that helpful thing is like you were talking about where it gives you that comparison. And that is not something I ever would have thought was a thing. Like if I go to Walgreens instead of Rite Aid or Target instead of Walgreens, that this exact same drug is going to be so different. I assumed that was regulated in some way. No, it isn't. No.

Seemingly nothing is regulated. So yeah, that's another frustrating thing is, like I said, with the CPT codes or even, yeah, with prescription medicine, like you think you're going to get the same price at CVS and Walgreens, but they could be dramatically different. So unfortunately, this is an instance where it's big dollars. So we have to do our due diligence and actually figure it out. So it's kind of annoying, but it's usually worth, especially for something recurring, it's worth the phone call. Yeah.

Thanks for listening to Chooseify and for all your support of our mission here. The absolute best way to support Chooseify is when you sign up for your next rewards credit card to use our cards page at chooseify.com slash cards. I keep this page constantly updated, so it should always be the top resource for you. Thanks for being part of our community and for your support.

Okay, well, let's veer away from medical stuff to something more fun. What's going on in your travel life? Ooh. So actually, I have a big thing going on. As we're recording this, I am leaving for the UK in exactly one week, which is awesome. We recently had the Donegans on the episode talking about their new music album, and I mentioned that they were winning the British Empire Medal from the King of England, which

And as wild as this is, they get three guests to come with them to the award ceremony at the Tower of London.

And one of those three guests is me. And I'm just so incredibly blown away and honored that, you know, they're great friends of mine, but goodness, they get three people and they invited me and I'm just, I can't believe it. So we're going to have a ball and just an absolute ball. I'm going to fly in, meet Katie's family right near the airport and spend some time with them and then go to this event.

on Friday. And then we're going to go to an English Premier League match, which I'm super excited about. It's not my beloved Arsenal, but they weren't playing in London, unfortunately. So that's going to be really cool. And then get to go out to some of their, you know, they know London and they also know food, the Donegans, which is really neat. So their favorite brunch place, I think it's called the Shum and we're going to go there. So that should be really awesome. And then

I'm going to head up to Edinburgh, Scotland, and hang out there for four nights. So it should be a really, really great trip. Yeah. Do you ever pay for plane tickets anymore? Well...

This was an odd one where I did pay for this flight, but it was very inexpensive. So I was okay with that. There were some needles to thread in terms of my daughters having their spring break. So I needed to leave at a particular time. And I also needed to get there in time for this event at the Tower of London. So this was a rare instance where I couldn't really make it work that my points were worthwhile. But of course, Ginger. Yeah.

in normal travel reward style, I was able to use free night certificates from Hyatt to get my London hotels for free. So the cool thing is those free night certificates, they're good for category one through four hotels. So usually you're not going to find

all that many category one through fours in like major metropolitan, like a New York or London or Tokyo or something like that. But there was one, well, I think there were two category four Hyatts in London. One was a little further afield, but...

But this one was pretty close in. It was on the eastern side of the city, so maybe not quite as fashionable as some areas, but it got great reviews. And it's only one or two tube stops away from where I need to be for the Tower of London. So to me, that's a slam dunk because London is a really expensive city in terms of lodging. So to use free night certificates to stay there for free, I thought was awesome.

Yeah, that reminds me. I have a hot tip for everyone. I recently, like my year was up for my Rapids Reward upgraded chase card, which I had gotten because they had the mini companion pass off group.

which was wonderful. And I'm so glad that I did. But then I let that anniversary come and go. And there's really not a reason for me to have that card this year. And it's $150, right? So I see that fee. And I only knew because I heard this probably on another podcast, but that you could call up to like you had 30 days to cancel it. And so I did that. It worked. I got my $150 back. You always kind of wonder, is that going to work?

So that's a good thing if you're a little bit less organized like me and let those dates slip that you can still get your money back. Yeah, I think that's a great tip, not only for credit card annual fees, but also charges in general. Of course, you want to be proactive. And I know I do this with, let's say, a subscription that I sign up for. I'll put it in my Todoist app and, oh, cancel this on X date. But

obviously a lot of stuff slips through, right? Like nobody's perfect by any means. I know Jonathan and I just went through this with a productivity tool for our website that we used to use that frankly, we're not on that platform anymore because Jonathan just redid the whole website, which is awesome. And we got charged, I think it was $89 and 10 cents. And it was a couple of weeks ago, but he was able to email them and say, Hey, look, we're not even using WordPress anymore. Is there any way to get a refund? And yeah, they were able to grant it. So I think short,

Sure, it's always better, just like prevention is better than trying to fix something after the case. It's always better to have this and to know when all your charges are going to hit. But, I mean, Ginger, you and I know that's not realistic, right, for every case. So the alternative is, at the very least, you should look at your credit card statements and see what's hitting as opposed to just being blissfully unaware. And, yeah, sometimes you'll find something that, oh, my goodness, I can't believe I got charged for that again. Customer service, of course, do they have to do that in the case of fraud?

you know, this service that I was using? No, they didn't have to refund us. They really didn't. But usually customer service is pretty good. And yeah, in your case with the annual fees on a card, I'm pretty sure you get 30 days after the charges hit to, you

call up and have them reverse it. I don't know definitively. I can't say that it's a hundred percent by law, but it's something akin to that if it's not actually by law. And yeah, I mean, that's a cool thing to do is just call up that number that's on the back of your card. And I think what a lot of people do also is just ask like, Hey, I'd love to keep this card open for a year, another year, but I really can't justify the annual fee. Is there any way you can waive it? Can you reduce it? Could you give me some other bonus maybe like, and people

people get surprising results from that. So you can also downgrade a card to a zero fee card if you wanted to keep that open for whatever reason. So you do have a lot of options, but I love that that worked out for you. And that's $150. There's nothing to sneeze at. Yeah. That's

That's really cool.

only way really to support us and of course support you. This is not a, you're not just supporting us, but if you're going to open a Travel Rewards credit card, just go to our page on our website on choosify.com. I keep my top 10 recommended cards updated at every given moment. And we have a master cards page at choosify.com slash cards. So if you're looking for a rewards card, yeah, it would be

really wonderful if you just happen to click through that instead of Googling the card name. So it's really as simple as that. So it shouldn't be any extra work on your part. But oh, and Ginger, I mentioned in passing that Jonathan has been updating the site. And this is actually really important. I know we've had a little before the episode starts, a little segment that I recorded. But just in case people are a little blind to something like that, which maybe does sound like an ad, even though it's not, Jonathan has been working like crazy to update our website and create a

better version of Facebook for Chooseify and the FI community and very specifically for Chooseify local groups. So if you're listening to this and you haven't signed up, I think it's somewhere close to 10,000 people have signed up already, which is really amazing. But we need that network effect. We need all of us who want to go to local events to sign up there so that your local admin, when

They create an event. They can go to our site. It takes five seconds for them to create an event and it gets emailed out to you. So you're not beholden to this stupid Facebook algorithm where you might see 1% of the things that show up. You actually will get emailed. And sadly, in today's day and age, the only reliable way to get in touch with you is email. So just go to choosefi.com. It's just the main homepage and right there, smack in the middle, it's create an account and log in.

And there's a ton of activity Jonathan's created and he's building this in public ginger, which is super cool. Like, so any suggestion you have, any feature requests you want, not just for local groups, but for conversation, for ability to ask questions for anything, Jonathan can build it, which is awesome, but he needs all of us to go there and, and,

ask questions and comment and be part of the conversation. Like this is what we've dreamed of for forever and we can finally do it, but we need all of us to just not go to stupid Facebook and just go to choose a red at common. Again, of course, just like anything, which is a buy it's free. It doesn't cost a penny. Jonathan's building this and he's doing an amazing job. So it's been fun. Have you thought about closing down the Facebook group? Yeah. Yes. But I don't know if that's going to happen or not. I think yeah,

That would be like the nuclear option that, yeah, if it got to the point where Facebook does something more malevolent than they already do, like, yeah, I would certainly think of it. But it is a nice way for people to communicate. And Facebook obviously has many, many billions of dollars to put into their development. But yeah, I mean, my goal would be, can we get all the conversation on our website?

and get people away from Facebook and really build something that's special for the FI community because Facebook certainly isn't doing that. They're making our lives harder. When I post in there, when I post in my own group with 130,000 people, if one or 2% of those people see anything, it's a lot.

So it's just so ridiculous. So I don't know is the question, but nobody should get worried if you're in a local group and you're happy with how it works. That's going to work for the time being. But yeah, it's not an ideal long-term scenario to have both the Facebook groups and our thing. So Ginger, I asked before...

about what does maybe like an ideal life. And I know that's a big statement, a big question without us really having time to think about this. I'm throwing this on you at the last moment, but it's interesting because I'll buy you some time. Like what does an ideal day look like? And of course every day is going to be different, but like, have you ever thought about that? Like in your post-fi life, like, Hey, what do I actually want my day to look like? And I think what's funny is you talked about like walkability before and

And I think like that is actually one of the single most important things. And like, what does an ideal day look like in my life is like, is really being able to walk places and be

It's hard to fathom that in America as currently constituted. And that's not to say it doesn't exist anywhere, but it sure doesn't exist like it does in Europe and other places. So, yeah, I mean, to me, walkability is a massive, massive, massive aspect. I think community, I think being outside, I think all of these things like, you know, I could keep talking, but have you thought about your ideal day? I love that question. I want to do homework about that question. I want to make a drama about that question.

Yeah, it's something I think about a lot. And in fact, earlier in our conversation, when we were talking about walking, it's one thing that I had thought about when I stopped being able to do this part of my routine was like a couple years ago when I really started getting into sort of the five movement.

I did think about this question a lot because I was thinking about like, what does my life actually cost? What do I actually value? And what I came up with was like, my favorite thing is to go for a walk and listen to a podcast and maybe get a cup of coffee. So like maybe you can throw $2 onto that. But that was like a really meaningful realization to have to say the things that make my life great are

don't cost a lot of money. And so then when that kind of went away, I just, oh, it was so hard because I thought, oh no, this was part of my ideal day. But it's okay, I'm gonna get back to it. The walkability thing is huge to me. And where I live, like maybe kind of, maybe better than some other places. I feel like when I visit other places in the US, I feel more grateful for where I'm at, but it's still not great. But what is your place?

plan about it? Oh, my actual plan. And related question, have you ever seriously considered moving abroad for any amount of time? Yes. So, well, that's a big one, Ginger.

Obviously, as you know, my life is changing, right? The circumstances of my life have changed. We talked about that on the Getting Personal with Personal Finance episode for anybody who didn't listen. I'm in the very, very final stages of finalizing a divorce. So yeah, I think my future is potentially different now than it ever has been. And I think

I slash we thought about, you know, in my ideal world, moving abroad while my daughters were younger would have been amazing. But I think and we had the flexibility and we had obviously the resources to do it. But I think we really valued them having continuity.

and they love their swim team, and they love their schools. And it just, it seemed like it would be dragging them away from something that they really enjoyed. And, you know, frankly, sometimes you make hard decisions as a parent, and you do what you think is best. And yeah, we, I guess we thought best to stay as is. So I did think about it, but it wasn't, it never really got to the point where it was even close to coming to fruition. But

Now, the practical reality of my life is my daughter, Molly, is going to graduate high school in May of 2030, which is five short years away. And I have the whole world at my fingertips then. And yeah, I mean, I would be lying if I said I am not thinking about moving abroad.

in some way. Now, is that a permanent move or is that something more akin to what the Donegans do, Alan and Katie? And actually, Ginger, it's funny, this brings us around to one of their speeches at Economy. They talked about zero-based thinking.

which was, it was actually their entire presentation was on travel and how much they've benefited from it. And some of the, some of the tips and tricks that they've picked up along the way, but this zero-based thinking was basically like starting fresh. Like it's a different take on sunk cost fallacy. So a lot of people look at, Oh, I've spent so much time and resources and whatever on this fill in the blank, this house or this location or this job or this whatever, but

What if you just said like, would I do this again today? Because it's in essence, by keeping what you're doing or where you're living or whatever, you're making the decision more or less to buy that thing again and again, because you're, you're not selling it, you're holding it. And, and I think a lot of us fall prey to that sunk cost fallacy, but what would it look like?

Would you take the same house again? Would you take the same location? Or again, would you buy something? And so like for me, my only what would I buy this again? As silly as it sounds is like my noise canceling headphones. I have these Bose noise canceling headphones that I absolutely love. Like, I don't know that there's anything else I own that I would like 100% slam dunk rebuy. I know it's that one thing, you know, of course, clothes and things like that. But it is a fun exercise, which also ties back to like the exercise of what is your ideal day look like?

So I think for me, the zero-based thinking is, would I live in Richmond, Virginia if I had the entire world at my fingertips? Yeah. And I think the answer almost invariably is no, right? Like, would I pick Richmond, Virginia out of every other location in the entire world if my kids weren't here? Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I think the answer is very obviously no. So do I know where my kids are going to end up? No, of course not. Yeah. I'm surprised to hear you saying these things. Ooh. Because...

Tell me. I remember not too long ago we were talking and it was like before you were going to Singapore. And I was like, oh, that's one of my dream cities. Can you go and tell me if I should live there? And I saw the shock on your face when I heard that.

So I thought this was like, you thought I was so nuts for thinking about this, but I'm always thinking about sort of that, how you just phrased it. Like, is this the best of all possible locations? If I wasn't tied down by things that maybe I'm not actually tied down by. Right. Are you actually tied down? And that's an interesting thing. And also knowing that there are seasons of life, right? Yeah. And,

Are you tied down there forever? Like, are you in Washington state forever? No, not by definition. And again, does this mean that I'm definitely going to move like June 1st, 2030? No, of course not. But like, I have to see where my daughters are, right? Like if they're not in Richmond, Virginia, they're not in Virginia. What's tying me to Virginia? Nothing at all. Zero things. Maybe I do something like,

Alan and Katie have done, and they find places to go and stay for two, three, four months at a time, and they build a life around that. So it's not like this transitory, super fast travel. It's like the epitome of slow travel in the sense that every year they go back to Puerto Vallarta.

at the beginning of the year. And that's just their life for a couple of months. And there's something really cool about that. So I think to me, and this is a thought exercise that I, that I did with a friend recently where we're talking about like, what would these perfect locations look like? And it's fun to build that out as you think about it. And as you have further discussions of like, you know, thinking about your life, thinking about your day-to-day thinking about what really lights you up and what's

important, what's not important. You're not going to get perfection. It's almost going to be, I don't want to say it's impossible because that's limiting, but you always have to choose certain things or else costs will become a massive factor. And that's fine too, I suppose. But again, for me, walkability is critical. Mm-hmm.

And yeah, when I was having this conversation with my friend, like both of us said, just the ability to walk to a grocery store. Like when I'm in London or when I was in Barcelona this past year and like in London going to the local M&S or the Sainsbury local, even the little ones, like if it's only...

a tenth of a mile or so, just a minute or two walk, like you go there every day and you can actually just like have fun. Like, oh, let's go pick up some cheese and let's have that wine and cheese tonight or whatever it may be. Like, oh, I feel like this for dinner tonight.

Let's go grab it. And like, I think there's just something fun and spontaneous about that for my life. And that's not to say everybody needs that, but it's cool. And even in my own community here in Richmond, like, are there options for that? And there are, there are mixed use communities where I saw a townhouse that was a 10th of a mile from Trader Joe's. Like it would be pretty darn cool to live a 10th of a mile from a minute or two walk from Trader Joe's. That would be really pretty awesome. There aren't that many people in America that can say that. And I feel like that would change your behavior. So yeah,

Yeah, a lot of thought exercises here, Ginger, but I think they're really, really important in terms of understanding yourself, understanding what you want life to look like. And yeah, I'm pleasantly surprised that I surprised you so much. Yeah.

Did I ever tell you I lived in South Korea for a year? No, never. Yeah, I lived in a suburb of Seoul. And it was this thing that you're describing now where you don't have a car and you don't miss having a car, which was just incredible for the quality of your life to have everything within walking distance. Yeah. You know, I think it's hard to imagine if you haven't had that. But yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's the cool thing is like, I think that's part of travel also. Right. It's like you not only see new cultures and are opened up to that. It was a conversation I had at economy was like, it's hard to walk away from travel and not realize that humans are humans are humans. And like, we all, we all want the same thing from life. There are very little grand differences in the, in the scheme of things like traveling opens your mind up, but I think it also makes you understand yourself better. Hmm.

And sometimes living in our own myopic little bubbles here in the U S like our islands of suburbia, like it's hard to realize what you actually want because this is the only thing you've ever experienced. And going to South Korea is pretty darn amazing. Going to Singapore, going to London or Barcelona or fill in whatever blank you want. And yeah,

You just learn more and more about yourself. And at the end of the day, isn't that what we're all looking for? Like, I think those of us in the five community are, we don't graze through life. And I mean, ginger to me, that is one of the most exciting parts. We going all the way back to the beginning episode of like going to a conference, like economy or a campfire or whatever. You just meet super interesting people. And yeah,

you find this diversity of thought and experience and background and hopes and dreams that is really inspiring. And I think to me, that's, that's one of the reasons I show up at these events. Yeah. I am so inspired by people doing things differently. And unless you see it, I mean, as you were talking about, Oh, the lesson you can get from travel is how much people are alike. And I feel like the powerful thing, lesson that I get is sort of the opposite, which is you go to these different places and you're like, Oh,

this is what it means to be a human here. And it can be really different. You know, like the day is structured really different or the sun feels so differently here. And until you kind of get to see that you don't question, is this working in my life? Could it be different? And there's so much of that in the five community, not just about geography, but about you are not thinking about the default. You are not recognizing that these could all be choices and,

Right. And that you could make them differently. So what a good pitch for going to a FI event, I think. I love that. Okay. I have an idea for how to end. Okay. Okay. So you talked about the new site, right?

Yeah. And you were talking about what would you buy again if you were sort of starting at zero? Okay. I love that question. I want to think about it. I want to make my list and I want to hear other people's lists. So how about like the day that this comes out, we also have a thread on the new site, which is asking that question. And then we invite people to share what are their items that they would buy again? Ooh, that,

That's cool. I love that. Damn, Ginger. Just off the top of your head. I love that. Okay. I will make that happen. That is an absolute slam dunk. So if you're listening to this, Ginger is going to be thinking about this list for the next couple of weeks. She's going to have a post in there for sure. Join us. Yeah, this is a cool thing. So join us. If you've already signed up, you're one of those 10,000 people. Come on back.

If you haven't signed up yet, create an account. It's so easy. Obviously, we're not asking anything from you. We'd never charge you for this. So just sign up. You get to click which local group you're part of. It's going to be real easy to find this particular thread. And yeah, we'll make it happen. I love that, Ginger. Thank you. All right. Well, on that note, Ginger, until next time, thanks for being here.

Thank you for listening to today's show and for being part of the Chooseify community. If you haven't already, the best ways to get involved are first, subscribe to the podcast. So you're listening to this on a podcast player, just hit subscribe and then subscribe to my weekly newsletter. I actually sit down every Monday and write this by hand.

and I send it out Tuesday morning. So just head over to choosefi.com/subscribe and it's really, really easy to get on the newsletter list right there and I would greatly appreciate it. It's the best way to get in touch with me. You can actually just hit reply to any of those emails and it comes directly to my inbox. So that's the way that I keep a pulse of the community and

How We Keep This, the Ultimate Crowdsource Personal Finance Show. And finally, if you're looking to join an in-real-life community, we have Chooseify local groups in 300-plus cities all around the world. So head to chooseify.com slash local, and you'll find a list of all of those cities in 20-plus countries all across the world.

And if you're just getting started with FI, or you have a family member or a friend who you think would be interested, two easy ways. Choose a FI episode 100 is kind of our welcome to the FI community. And even though it's a couple years old at this point, it still stands up. And it's a really great just starting point to get an understanding of what is financial independence? What are we doing here? Why are we looking to live a more intentional life where we save money and use it as a springboard to live a better life?

And then Choose a Vi created a financial independence 101 course that's entirely free. Just head to chooseavi.com slash fi101. And again, thanks for listening.