Morocco is Now a Major Hub for Chinese Investment in Africa
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Hello and welcome to another edition of the China in Africa podcast, a proud member of the Seneca Podcast Network. I'm Eric Olander, and as always, I'm joined by CGSP's Africa editor, Jero Nima, from the beautiful island of Mauritius. A very good afternoon to you, Jero. Good afternoon, Eric.

Géraud, today we're going to focus on a region in Africa that we don't spend enough time on and it's been an area that we've neglected over the years, particularly, you know, in recent years. And that's shameful on our part because Morocco and North Africa have become incredibly important in the broader China-Africa relationship. We saw this during the pandemic when Algeria, Morocco and Egypt in particular benefited far

far more from Chinese vaccine distribution. We see this increasingly in BRI investment, and then now more and more in the auto manufacturing sector. This all came into very clear focus last month when Chinese President Xi Jinping, on his way home from the G20 summit in Brazil, made an unannounced announcement

visit to Casablanca, where he spent a few hours in the North African country meeting with Crown Prince Muley el-Hassan and Prime Minister Aziz Akhanoush. And what was kind of neat is when he arrived in Casablanca, and again, it took everybody by surprise because the foreign ministry did not say this was on his itinerary, but when he landed, the Crown Prince, who is only 21 years old,

greeted Xi at the airport, and that got a lot of positive buzz over on X and on social media, where you have this young man greeting the president of China in an unannounced visit. So that was a little bit nice to see, actually. But why did Xi go to Morocco, of all countries? He could have stopped over anywhere.

And when we talk about China-Africa, Morocco really doesn't get the attention that it deserves. And when you look at the fact that Morocco, more than a lot of countries, is becoming increasingly aligned with China's new economic priorities, especially in the auto sector,

Well, now it starts to make a lot more sense. Let me just give you a few data points from this year alone. Back in April, the Moroccan government signed a $300 million agreement with China's BTR New Material Group to build a plant in the port city of Tangier to produce cathodes used in electric vehicle batteries.

In June, China's Goshin Hitech Group, which is part German-owned by Volkswagen, announced that it will build Morocco's first EV battery gigafactory for more than a billion dollars. And then just this week, rumors began to circulate that Chinese engine maker Zhongshan Group is planning to build a facility to design and build both electric vehicle engines and hybrid engines.

So a lot going on. I could have spent maybe 10 more minutes talking to you about all the different deals across the automotive vehicle supply chain that happened this year, really highlighting the importance that Morocco's playing for the Chinese auto sector. Now, long before all of these announcements, BYD built a factory way back in 2017. And that was well before what BYD has been doing for the past year on a building spree throughout the global south. And the reason why...

All of these Chinese automotive companies and parts suppliers are being drawn to Morocco because they've got an automotive manufacturing ecosystem that is really unrivaled in the region. And just last year, they produced more than half a million motor vehicles, which was a 27% increase over the previous year.

And that generated 14 billion dollars for the local economy. Now the reason this is all possible is because Morocco, in many ways, is an auto manufacturing nirvana.

way more advanced than almost anywhere else in the global south. The country is home to a holistic automotive supply chain from parts to batteries to full manufacturing. And now increasingly, and this is something that Giraud has been following, it's also becoming a source of key battery metals like lithium. So we can probably start seeing more on the downstream of mining, refining, and then moving into the automotive industry.

manufacturing. But it's not just their manufacturing capabilities that make Morocco special. They are also one of the only countries in Africa and one of only a handful in the world that have free trade agreements with both the United States

and the European Union. Now, Giraud, while that is a huge opportunity for Morocco because they can export tariff-free into the United States and into Europe, increasingly in this new Trump era that's about to start, that could also be seen as a potential liability given the concerns that both the Europeans and the Americans have about Chinese autos. Both Europe and the United States have slapped huge tariffs

on Chinese autos, more in the United States where they've blocked it altogether. And I guess there's concern that BYD and other Chinese auto companies may use Morocco as a backdoor into these markets. Give us a little bit of your assessment, because this is an area that you've studied, about how Morocco is now having to contend with both market pressures to keep up with the automotive industry and also very serious geopolitical concerns.

You've covered a big part of what could be said about that. Morocco, as I've pointed out a few months ago on a paper, that Morocco is becoming that country that China is using to circumvent Europeans and American measure against Chinese EV cars into the market in the US and Europe. And Morocco is really taking advantage of that, I think, not willingly, but unwillingly because of its proximity.

being geographical or economic proximity. As you mentioned, the fact that they have FTA, free trade agreement with both EU and the United States at the same time. But they also have a very strong industrial landscape allowing them to attract the kind of investment that are useful for Chinese investment. The China, what I call the China 2.0, the future of China in Africa, in a sense where China is looking much more into stable environment where you can really invest into more advanced

advanced economy than the one that we used to see before. So yes, Morocco now is attracting that and we see a lot of Korean companies. Among the companies that you mentioned, we had Chinese Yoshan with LJ Chem from Korea creating a joint venture to set up shops in Morocco. We see a Canadian company, One Lithium, I believe, also wanted to set up a shop in Morocco with a Chinese company.

So we see that happening. And now Morocco is going to have, as you mentioned, to contend with the probability that the Trump administration may react unfavorably to the fact that there are third party countries that are serving as a vessel for Chinese automakers to circumvent the measure that's been put in place by the U.S. to keep China cars out.

The question is, Morocco is not the only one, because in America we have also Mexico, with almost a similar context with Morocco. Even there, the U.S. also took action against them. So now we're going to have to look into how the U.S. will react to that. But in Europe, we don't sense that same level of

angst or anxiety by having morocco attracting chinese investment i was talking to a few europeans executive in the automakers industry they were telling me that you know sometime it may serve us well in a sense where if we cannot stop brussels into putting tariffs on the market at least we can get some of the input from morocco because morocco has a free trade agreement with us so

It's going really to be interesting to see how Moroke is going to balance all the geopolitical tensions that are going to arise because of its position and because it's attracting Chinese money in that industry.

Well, let's find out more about this. And again, I'm very excited to dive into this topic because we haven't covered it enough. But we have one of the top experts with us today, Francois Conradi, who's a lead political economist at Oxford Economics Africa and joins us on the line for the show for the first time from Casablanca. Francois, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today.

Hi, Eric. Hi, Jehol. It's good to be with you. Great. We've kind of laid the table for you on all the critical issues. Let's start with the question that I asked right at the top of why did Xi Jinping stop in Morocco on his way home when he could, of course, gone anywhere? Why do you think he chose Morocco to go to in terms of the importance that it may be playing for China and the optics of the visit that he had back in November?

Yes, as you said, it was an unexpected, unannounced visit. No one knew about it. I was actually driving around Casablanca on the evening and, you know, suddenly there were just police roadblocks everywhere. And we didn't really know until a bit later that this is the reason that Xi Jinping was in Casablanca. It would have been coordinated with the Moroccans. So...

The visit wasn't a state visit or an official visit or even what they call a working visit. They called it a technical stopover because there are safety rules about flying. So these world leaders stop for a bit when they fly around the world. So between Brazil and China...

The president had to stop somewhere on the west coast of Africa. On the way there, he'd stopped in the Canary Islands, and then on the way back in Casablanca. So it would have been coordinated with the Moroccans, and I think the biggest reason is what you've been talking about since the podcast started, the automotive industry and the importance of that for both countries. So as you say, the Chinese companies have been very active in investing in Morocco. So apart from that...

The two other considerations that I think might be interesting, the one is fisheries, because there's a bit of uncertainty now at the moment about the legal right that European fishermen will have to fish off the coast of the Sahara.

because the European Court of Justice issued a ruling saying that the existing agreements on which this trade is based are illegitimate and this will, as

as I have it, mean that a year from now, European fishers will no longer have the right to trawl off the coast of the Sahara, which is a big problem for the Spanish fleet in particular. So there's a lot of uncertainty about this. So the European governments are now scrambling to find a way to challenge the ECG ruling or

I don't know what really can happen there, but as I have it, this ruling is binding on member states and the governments and companies that operate and that are registered in them, which has led the Moroccans to think… And you think the Chinese could be benefiting from this in some ways, that Chinese fishing would then kind of replace what the Europeans are doing?

Exactly. Yes, yes, exactly. So that's an angle that I'm sure came up in this meeting, which would make sense for the Moroccans because as things stand, they have a quite a big trade deficit with China. You know, it's of the order of 10 times a bit more actually. So in 2023, it was about $450 million of Moroccan exports to China. And it was mostly low value added products, ores and scrap compared to almost 7 billion of Moroccan imports from China, which are much more.

high value added machineries and textiles. So the Moroccans will be looking to boost their exports to China and at the same time do as well as they can on imports from China, especially at a time when they're doing all this thickening of the industrial fabric and looking to use renewable energy to power all these factories. And for that, I mean, at the moment, you have to be looking to China for your solar panels and turbines. So there's that.

And then the last thing is probably a diplomatic angle in that Morocco's main diplomatic priority is to get more governments to recognize its plan for autonomy over the Sahara and to get countries that recognize the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic to withdraw that recognition. Now, it's been doing well at that, but there's still quite a few countries in Africa that do recognize the Sahara.

And a lot of them are in eastern and southern Africa, where China has quite a lot of influence. So...

It will have been Moroccans will be thinking about looking for ways in which the Chinese can have a word with the Kenyans and the Mozambicans and the Zimbabweans and the South Africans and Ethiopians to whether there isn't a way to try and sway them. And then the last thing is Prince Mullah Hassan has been meeting world leaders. It's clear that the palace is signaling his readiness to take over and to reassure people that, you know, the transition from one king to the next

won't be disruptive. So he met President Xi when he came. He met President Macron when he was here not long ago. So that was also an important part of the stopover. You have provided us with a lot of insight myself I really didn't think about. When I look into Morocco on how it fits Chinese interests or Chinese angle on the African side,

you mentioned fishery and something that frankly speaking when you talk about fishery and we talked about Chinese fisheries in Africa we see in the west coast in Gulf of Guinea we also see on the Indian Ocean but Morocco didn't really come up into mind mind you Morocco is one of the big countries when it comes to fishery and

also mentioning the diplomatic angle of the Polisario situation where West Area being China advocating or somehow wouldn't say pressuring other countries I would say much more advocating other countries to side on Morocco in that case but let's go back a bit on how from your perspective how now Morocco fits into China strategy that we are seeing right now in Africa that are taking place do you see Morocco being

much more aligned, as Eric mentioned during his introduction, being aligned much more to what China is looking to do in Africa right now? Or it's only because of its proximity with Europe and the US when it comes to critical minerals and the EV industry and all of that? Yes. So these things are happening at the same time. So there's been a bit, you guys will know better than me, a bit of a change in emphasis in the way China invests in Africa. So they've gone from

buying debt and lending on a bilateral basis to African governments. There was a time when there was a bit of criticism and backlash about that. And also the Chinese had to take a haircut on some of the debt that they had lent in Africa. So they were able to shift away from that towards FDI, towards rather a

using savings and then credits that can be extended by China's banking system to set up production in African countries where it makes sense. And the countries of late, it has made the most sense of Morocco and Egypt.

and to some degree Algeria too. But Morocco and Egypt have been places where there's been the most news of Chinese FDI coming in. Egypt has become a lot more attractive lately as a place to cite production because of the devaluation of the pound, which has made production there less expensive. And then Morocco is the other benefit. So there's no perspective in the near term, at least of a big change in the exchange rate. But

It has all the other advantages. So labor isn't very expensive as it is. It's skilled. The parts system, the supply chains that a factory needs are in place. It's close to Europe. This is almost the main thing. It's close to Europe and the harbors, especially around Tangier, Tangier Met, are there to allow, you know, very quick supply.

supply to the factories and shipping from Morocco again. And then there's the minerals that Eric mentioned, the lithium, that is obtainable in Morocco without any of the concerns over conflict or child labor, which are a problem when you source it from elsewhere in Africa.

Let's talk about some of these trade issues because I think they're going to be very prominent next month when Donald Trump takes power. What about this issue that a lot of people are raising that the Chinese could use a country like Morocco as a backdoor into the U.S., taking advantage of the free trade agreement? Are there controls that Morocco may impose on what they export out in order to avoid the risk of retaliatory tariffs from the White House?

I don't know. That's a good question. So even under President Biden, the US has been quite protectionist about EVs. They've already got a special tariff on EVs. That's not going to go away under Trump. So it might. I'm sure like a White House under Trump is going to be very alive to any attempts by China to site production in a third country to get around

tariffs and we'll have to get that so that i don't know if the u.s was ever really the intended destination for production by chinese companies in morocco i think it was always more europe uh so there's already but it's not just evs though because of the free trade agreement they could ship anything in into the united states right i mean so even beyond evs i guess i'm just wondering in places like casablanca the people you talk to are there concerns about the chinese setting up

shop in Morocco to take advantage of these free trade agreements because of the restrictions that they're facing elsewhere. We see that here in Southeast Asia, where Chinese manufacturing is moving in order to transship more into these markets where they're having difficulties or they're expecting to have difficulties.

Well, look, if it happens, it's not something that would concern the Moroccans. I mean, that's very much what they want. The main Morocco wants to attract FDI and production to create employment in Morocco and then add value here to boost export value. So that's very much something that they think is a possible advantage of the free trade agreements. So it's more, if they have a concern, it's more about a retaliation about this than a

attracting the kind of negative attention from a protectionist US government that will then impact their other exports to America. But I'll just say that, you know, the Americans can be, despite the existence of the free trade agreement, they use other rules to act

act a bit mercantilist when it suits them. So not long ago, there was a suit against the OCP in which an American competitor of the OCP in fertilizers now. So the OCP is the big Moroccan parastatal phosphates company, a big producer of fertilizer, said that the OCP, because it's a parastatal, receives government subsidies and this is unfair competition. And OCP's sales in America then got slapped with an extraordinary tariff. So that sort of thing

It happens all the time, free trade agreements or not. And it's sort of part of the give and take of commercial diplomacy in the world, you know?

You just mentioned about the OCP and fertilizer. One of the things that we see China being present a lot and starting to invest in Morocco is also that area of fertilizer and being with Morocco with, I think, with phosphate, with all the reserves that it has, it really has potential to really become one of the main fertilizers of the world and also selling to the Chinese market. You are in Casablanca, you're based in Casablanca. Have you seen

seen a strong dynamic taking place around the fertilizer industry with Chinese companies, with Chinese investment in that area? Have you seen really traction taking place, investment, larger scale investment, and Moroccans, businessmen also taking advantage of that Chinese interest toward Moroccan fertilizer industry?

So the OCP for decades, their focus has been on adding the maximum value at home and they've sort of got it down. So there's some area where an investment will be welcomed that will compete with the OCP or buy lower value added products from the OCP to manufacture fertilizers here. So that's the way I see it. Nor have I heard of any investments in this space. So what they try to do rather is to establish joint ventures in other countries. And this happens in Nigeria,

and elsewhere in Africa to then here and there site the manufacture of fertilizer in other countries and then just ship the raw material there when it makes sense for the company. And it's interesting that Nigeria and Kenya are two countries that recognize the Sahrawi Republic. So there's an element there too of using trade as a sort of a beginning of a soft approach to get what they want diplomatically.

So getting back to the trade element, to the trade that you mentioned, and we've mentioned the trade deficit that Morocco has to China and how Morocco is now trying to attract more FDI, especially from other parts of the world, but also from China to be able to really create employment. You're an economist. Do you see what the tools that Morocco can use today to

try to balance or if there is any way to balance that trade deficit with China. China has been promoting elsewhere in Africa, agricultural import from Africa, all the different kind of scheme in South Africa as well, where we talk about import of avocado and fruit and different kind of fruits elsewhere in Kenya as well. In Morocco, what could be the tools and the leverage that Morocco can put on the table to allow it to try as much as possible to start to rebalance its trade deficit with China?

I don't think they're going to get anywhere close to a balance because that would mean Morocco increasing its exports to China by over $6 billion a year, closer to $7 billion. So it's not going to balance anytime soon, especially as Morocco, its imports are going to be quite high. This has already become apparent. Its imports are high at the moment because it's importing the machinery it needs, the equipment for this infrastructure overhaul.

The economic fabric of the country. So there's it's a lot of it has to do with electricity generation, but it needs desalination plants. It needs the cable connections to transport electricity. So all of that is keeping imports in Morocco quite high and a lot of it is going to keep coming from China.

So I think that one thing that can change the picture a little bit, but it won't be massive, is fish. But I mean, Morocco's total exports of fish are only a billion dollars a year. So even if it substantially boosts the share that goes to China,

It'll make only a small difference to the trade deficit. Do you see any potential that they could sell finished goods? Because in many ways, Morocco is better positioned to sell a manufactured product back to China. I mean, it's hard to imagine what China would buy in the form of a manufactured product from Morocco, given the fact that China makes almost everything on that front. I mean, they're certainly not going to buy cars from Morocco. But is there any opportunity for Moroccans to diversify their exports

beyond, say, commodities, food, and agriculture to actually move up the value chain to sell something that the Chinese may need and then generate more income from that? No, I don't think so. So the logic of moving up the value chain is very much present in Morocco's economic strategy, but the client is always Europe. So that's what the engagement with the Chinese is leading to, is increased production in Morocco of autos, but also airplane parts,

and little machine parts and various other manufactured things that they sell to Europe. But the final clients in this logic is Europe and the United States, not nowhere else. I'm not trying to

So basically, they're finding themselves in a conjunction of interest where China wants to maintain its access to Europe and to the United States. And Morocco wants to really becoming that manufacturing hub for Europe motor makers. So basically, both of them, they're really in

objective alliance where all the interests are kind of coming all together, where China is really bringing in the equipment, investment, the FDI, all the money, and Morocco is creating the context and taking advantage of this import of the equipment imported from China to really now all getting to the European market and the US market. That's really quite interesting. It's really, at the end, Morocco is not really, as I was thinking, bystander in that strategy. It's

maybe slowly in a silent way, a very active player in that strategy to try to find the right partners, allowing it to really get its own economic goals toward the US and Europe. Yeah, so as I mentioned earlier, like almost the main concern of Morocco's policymakers is employment, you know, creating more decent, well-paid jobs in the secondary sector.

And Chinese investment definitely plays a very welcome role in this. So there's no reason for the relations to be anything but very good. Listen, let's wrap up our discussion looking ahead. It's the end of the year now. We're looking to 2025.

It's going to be a bumpy year in geopolitics in 2025, not only in the United States, but in Europe as well. Lots of turbulence in places like Germany. Countries like Morocco are very vulnerable to these shocks, given disruptions in trade and politics and tensions between the U.S. and China and all of that. When you take out your crystal ball and your clients say, what do you see, Francois, you know, going into 2025 and among all these big tectonic plates that are moving,

Where does Morocco stand in all of this? And what do you think they should do in order to buttress themselves against what most people think is going to be quite a turbulent year? It's interesting you mentioned Germany. So there's a lot of unpredictability in the ether. But the re-election of Donald Trump and the way it happened and the score that he got does look like a bit of a pendulum swing in the direction of protectionism by

the biggest Western country. Protectionism and also, I don't want to say rejection, but a much more nuanced view of

environmental issues and so on. And then the reason I talk about this is that if the same swing happens in Europe, then you're going to see it in Germany. So there's been a lot of bad news out of Germany lately about Volkswagen having to close factories. And, you know, if there is a protectionist swing in Germany, then it'll be they're going to get hostile to people

imports of cars and they're going to get hostile to the whole idea of green energy which is um you know moving away from nuclear already has made the life quite difficult for german industry and much of the industrial bets of morocco is on continued enthusiasm for green energy of various kinds in europe you know so there's a lot of

projects to crack water into hydrogen using solar power and that's green hydrogen and if the europeans decide no actually we don't want this we're going to go back to nuclear and gas then that could be difficult so that's something the german federal election is going to be the next important weathervane i reckon for the state of protectionism in the west and you know a more protectionist west

is less friendly to Morocco. - And all of these issues, of course, are interconnected because part of the reason that Volkswagen is having difficulties and potentially facing a devastating strike is in part because they're facing huge competition in China. And the sales in China have hit them very hard and the competition around the world from likes of BYD are making it difficult for Volkswagen to raise wages and increase output in Europe. So there's a lot of interconnectivity in a lot of these issues.

Francois, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. It was fascinating to get your insights and for us to spend more time on Morocco. And we'd love to circle back with you in a few months to check in on how 2025 is going. Francois Conradi is the lead political economist at Oxford Economics Africa in Casablanca. And we really appreciate your time today. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks, Eric. Thanks, Joel. It was a great chat. Thanks for having me on.

- Morocco is such an interesting country because it is at the crossroads of so many industries. Geographically, it's at the crossroads as well.

but it's also at the front lines of a lot of very potentially dangerous trends that could have a horrifying impact on Morocco if protectionism swings in Europe the way that Francois was talking about, and the same time the impact from the United States and the fact that it is doing so much with China very well could draw some negative attention from Washington and the Trump administration. So lots of opportunity, but also lots of risk as well for a country like Morocco.

Exactly. Given that it's going to come in a moment, we have that situation in the palace where there is maybe the transition to with a new king. It's going to be interesting how he intends to manage that complexity. And Morocco, I think in a world where we have bipolar vision or much more tension into you are either with us, either against us,

Morocco is going to have to play really hard ball to be able to maintain its independence and to be able to take advantage of its positioning toward the US and with Europe and also with China at the same time. And that's going to require a lot of diplomacy, a lot of tactical geopolitical move to be able to just pull that out. But given how Morocco has been managing so far with the West Syrian situation and all of that, I believe

that they have much more tool and assets on the table, allowing them to be able to get something out of there. And mind you, you have a lot of French and European companies that also see Morocco as in a land of opportunities. So I think there is a dynamic there where Morocco can really have a space where it can really take advantage of all that context that's taking place now. Now, we should put a little bit of a footnote on our conversation today. We've been talking about Morocco as if it's a part

of Africa, which of course it is physically a part of Africa, but in both the U.S. and the Chinese context, diplomatically, it's not a part of Africa. It's part of the MENA Middle East region. And so in that sense, there is some differences in terms of how China engages Morocco because it engages it under more of its MENA strategy, its Middle East North Africa strategy, rather than its Africa, its Sub-Saharan Africa strategy. One of the reasons why

during the pandemic, so many vaccines went to the North African rim and not to Sub-Saharan Africa was because they were technically two different divisions within the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and within the Chinese thinking about Africa. Again, the Chinese are not unique there. Mirrors very similar split.

that the Americans, and I'm not sure about the Europeans, but the Americans make as well on this. But when we look at Morocco as a part of Africa, when we look at the development of their automotive industry, in many respects, they are a leader, pretty much right there with South Africa that has a full automotive supply chain as well. And what's coming up quite quickly in Egypt as well, and that's been a big,

a magnet for foreign direct investment into those countries as well. But the rest of the continent has been talking about moving up the value supply chain, up the manufacturing supply chain. You've studied Morocco and you've looked at this. What do you think other sub-Saharan African countries can take away from the experience of what Morocco's been able to achieve?

Beyond the fact that, of course, as Francois talked about, the geography and being so close to Europe does make a huge difference. But are there other things that the Moroccans have done that you see countries say Kenya, Ghana, Nigeria, Angola could do in order to move up the value chain?

Of course, there are many things that we can look into what Morocco has done successfully, but it's going to take quite a bit of time for other countries in sub-Saharan Africa to be able to pull that out. South Africa, of course, already has done that, but it's much more about the industrial landscape that the country has that really attract investment and political stability. This is something that we cannot overstate, that really it's important to have that stable political landscape and overhaul.

also a good economic situation to be able to attract those investment and for those country to be able to take advantage of the of the natural resources or to move up the value chain it's gonna take much more than just policies or declaration or you know them wanting to do that they're gonna have to really to create the conditions and morocco i don't think without really wanting it because at that time it was not part of the debate of the old critical minerals and all the

EVs, Morocco already had started to develop its own automotive industry with strong infrastructure and everything. So when the old debates about EV, battery, EV, value chain and moving up the value chain came, Morocco just was ready.

I don't think that Morocco planned for it, but it was planning for something else, but that something else allowed it to be ready for the next level of investment we are going to see, the next level of industrial move that we're going to see to happen on the EV industry. And this is, I think, not what lacks to many African countries, sub-Saharan African countries. They have the natural resources, but they do not have the industrial landscape, the manufacturing landscape, the basic infrastructure landscape that really allows you to move

move up to the value chain because you don't, as I say, you don't really need to plan for it, but that landscape also can be used for a different part of industries. This is much more an industrial problem for many African countries than anything else. And corruption is a mounting problem in Morocco. The kingdom has fallen in the rankings of Transparency International's corruption index. They fell three points to 97th out of 180 countries.

countries last year in 2023, and then they've fallen 24 places in the past five years. So just as a measure of corruption, that could be a problem for Morocco going forward. Again, that's been a big part of the problem in attracting FDI. You talked about political stability, but corruption drives a lot of that instability and that short-term planning that goes into building sustainable industries. Investors really don't like corruption.

I mean, it just makes it very hard. I mean, it just makes it very difficult. Yeah, they don't like it. It's all about making a functional corruption happening. In certain countries, corruptions are really crippling. They're really, truly crippling. In other parts of the world, corruption is there, but it doesn't cripple the industry, doesn't cripple the economy. It doesn't create the kind of instability that makes investments go away. It's like it's there because...

This is quote-unquote a way of doing business, but it doesn't create that space of, well, big uncertainty, not knowing if tomorrow or after tomorrow there's going to be a big shift in the industrial landscape of the country. Well, you identified Morocco as an unexpected winner of China's strategy to circumvent the U.S. Inflation Reduction Act.

Now, with the Trump administration coming in, the IRA may not be as important as it was under the Biden administration. What's your view in terms of Morocco emerging as a Chinese lithium producer and other battery metals that could be important in that supply chain and whether or not the U.S. IRA will have any impact on that?

I think if the IRA is not upheld, if there are changes on the IRA, I think Morocco can basically keep on taking advantage of that. Because beside the U.S., we still have Europe. We still have Europe where now we are talking about tariffs on Chinese EV cars and everything. So yes, IRA might change or might not change. But at the end, Morocco is still going to take advantage of that. It's going to be the winners of that all geopolitical context. Because the reality is in the U.S.,

The Trump administration, if we have to guess, we know that there's still going to be a 90 China move. We're already talking about 100% tariff on Chinese EVs and everything. So we're going to expect those kind of initiatives by the Trump administration to take place. And Morocco still, because of this FTA, can still be an asset for China to maintain access to the U.S. market.

Well, we're going to leave it there. You're going to get the last word of 2024. This is our last normal show of the year. Giro, can you believe we've done 80 shows and next week will be our 81st show of 2024? I mean, that is just remarkable. Who thought there would be this much to talk about? And this is now going into our...

Oh, gosh. We're now going into our 15th year of production next year on this show. 15 years we're doing this show. So I want to give a big, big thank you to all of our subscribers this year and all of our Patreon supporters. You guys have been there for us. You help make this all happen. Your support is just, it just comes, it's just, I can't even express it in words how much it means to us. You know, we're running a small independent media company here.

And you hear all of the headlines about the difficulties that CNN and MSNBC and, you know, all the newspapers in Europe and Japan and all around the world the media is having. And this is a brutally tough business. Covering China is not an easy business for us either. And so this support from subscribers and readers is what makes this possible. So if you would like to join us,

our community of readers, and just to support the work that Giraud and Kobus and Johnny and Edwin and Lucy and everybody's doing at the China Global South Project around the world. We would greatly, greatly appreciate it. We need your support in order for us to continue doing this work that we're doing in order to push back

on some of the extreme coverage that really distorts our understanding of these big geopolitical events on all sides, not just with the Chinese but against the Americans and the Europeans and Japanese and Africans and others. Go to ChinaGlobalSouth.com/subscribe. Subscriptions are very affordable. They start at just $19 a month. Of course, if you are a student or a teacher, you can get half off. Just email me, [email protected], and I will send you the links

for our half-off subscriptions that start at just $10. Please use your academic email address when you send me that email. But wow, Kodjero, and I just want to give a shout out to Kobus as well for just an amazing year of podcasts. We're doing our last show of the year next week.

with our annual year in review and year in preview program where Gero Kobus and I will look back on all the key stories in China, Africa for the past year, and then give a little bit of a forecast of what we're expecting ahead in 2025. So for Geronima in Mauritius, I'm Eric Olander. Until next week, thank you so much for listening.

The discussion continues online. Tag us on Twitter at ChinaGSProject and visit us at ChinaGlobalSouth.com. If you speak French, check out our full coverage at ProjetAfriqueChine.com and AfriqueChine on Twitter. That's Afrique with a K. And you'll also find links to our sites and social media channels in Arabic.

Oh, no.