Is it possible to be a "good tourist"?
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Hello, everyone. I'm Kimberly Adams. Welcome back to Make Me Smart, where none of us is as smart as all of us.

And I'm Rima Jerez. It is Tuesday, the 1st of July. It is time for our weekly deep dive. We are going to be talking today about tourism, specifically the problem of there being too many tourists. I know it's something I've been thinking about when figuring out my summer travel, so I am excited to get into it.

Yeah, we want to know more about this growing tension between tourists and locals and the global economic forces that play into all of it. So here to make us smart is Christopher Gaffney, professor at the Tisch Center of Hospitality at New York University. Welcome to the show, Christopher. Thanks very much. Pleasure to be here. And I understand you're in quite the tourist location yourself.

I am. I'm in Rome, Italy, where it is excruciatingly hot and chaotic with tourists. Oh my gosh. So first of all, can you lay out what has set up this moment where there are these protests happening, particularly in Europe, against tourists and why they're getting so much attention right now? Because these have been tourist spots for ages.

There have been tourist spots for, in some cases, 150, 200 years. In the case of Rome, since Christian pilgrimage became a thing. And the explosion of tourism in the last 20 years has really taken its toll on city centers, and especially for people who are not involved in the tourism industry.

And what we see with tourism numbers increasing, I was just looking at the numbers today, this year there were probably 1.5 billion international tourist flights and Europe receives the lion's share of those international tourists. And so if we think of a city like Barcelona where there's some very well-documented protests, it's a pretty small city. The metropolitan Barcelona is probably 3 million people.

And they receive 20, 30 million tourists a year, which is a lot of pressure on the city center. And so when tourists come, they consume more resources, they occupy transportation, but they also generate trash and noise and use more water, waste. And then the phenomenon of Airbnb takes long-term rentals off the market, which increases prices for locals.

And that creates a cost of living issue because then rents across the city become higher and Spanish salaries are not necessarily increasing. Students still study in Barcelona and they have to live further and further out from the city. And so what we've seen with this, it's a very steep increase in international tourism, which is a product of the growing middle class around the world, cheap airfare,

online booking platforms, influencers, etc. What we see is a concentration in these canonical

Western European tourist sites, which generate conflict because the benefits of that tourism, the economic benefits, are not very widely distributed. And it generates real systemic problems for the people that are living in those cities. Yeah, there's this tension where a lot of local economies depend on tourism. But I'm trying to wrap my head around this idea of like, when does mass tourism cross the line? Like, when does it go from being an economic engine to being a burden for the people who actually live there? Yeah.

I don't know if it's aligned so much as a series of event cascading events. So if we think of tourists, even to transport one tourist across the world from, say, Los Angeles to Rome,

The number of systems that have to be synchronized and working well for that to happen are quite incredible. From passports and government to airline booking systems, jet fuel, taxis, roadways, hotels, just all the things that have to happen to go together are part of what makes global capitalism tick as well.

And as tourism is between 10% and 15% of the global economy, depending on who you ask, it's mass consumption. And so it's not just call it mass tourism, it's mass consumption of places for the pleasure of non-locals.

And when you're just consuming a place where you're going in and as a kind of a sovereign agent in a way you can, especially with strong passports, you cross borders easily, you have a credit card, you can book, you don't have to even talk to anyone in the place anymore.

That becomes a form of mass consumption. And I think that is radically out of balance in the current context. And this is what many people are protesting against, is that they have no relationship with the tourists. The tourists, mass tourists use the cities that those people have created. And they are the things, you know, we go to see people, we go to see culture, we go, we don't. If we want to go, um,

Honestly, animals go to a safari or a zoo, but we go to a place where people have created the thing that is being consumed. And I think that mass tourism is a form of unwelcome extractivism, where we're taking the value of those places that have been created over centuries...

in millennia in the case of Rome and consuming it for our own benefit and taking our selfies and posting on Facebook or whatever and not giving anything back other than some cash. And so that purely transactional, very alienating form of tourism is what we would call mass tourism. And that has really captured the imagination of people that want to do less and less work

to consume the things that they want to have. And tourism is one of those things. To get the photo in front of the Colosseum or on Sagrada Familia, you have to then also engage in that extractivism on a deeply, and for many people, it's deeply personal because you're extracting the value from them and the things that they've created. So how do you as a traveler avoid that? Yeah.

I don't know that it's avoidable. I think that there's... How can we be more thoughtful, maybe? Well, this is the... We could be more thoughtful by thinking of ourselves as guests, right? Instead of just tourists or travelers. Like we're approaching someone's home. And when we go to visit someone's home, we bring something. We take off our shoes at the door. Or, you know, we don't...

clog the toilet if we can help. All these things that we try not to do in someone's house, we should also not do in someone else's city. And so we want to engage and to have more, to establish more friction in the relationships. That is that when we take time to talk with people and understand the culture or the cultures in any given place to make more meaningful connections rather than one that's just transactional.

And I think this kind of goes both ways where the hosts also should put demands on guests. So if someone comes to your, I lived in New York for many years and because the streets are dirty, we'd always ask our guests to take off their shoes. And it was a very rare instance when someone said no.

But if we didn't demand that they... We say, oh, well, you know, really? Then we have a conversation and they understand and then they take them off. Or we offer them some slippers. And so it is also a condition where hosts need to establish more rules for the guests because the guests we know are coming whether we like it or not. Well, yeah, let's talk about that. So thinking about city governments...

What are authorities doing? Like, have you seen a city successfully tackle overtourism? And if so, what does that look like? Well, overtourism, just to clarify the term, it takes many different forms. And so in Barcelona, one of the forms it's taking is excessive crowding and increased rents because of short-term rental platforms. But it's not taking the form of drunken British youth going and throwing up in the streets like it did in Amsterdam.

And so for many years, the Brits were going to Amsterdam, having their stag and bachelorette parties and throwing up everywhere. And then so the Amsterdam city government started demarketing Amsterdam to the Brits and showing people getting arrested and showing all the dumb things tourists are doing as an advertising site. If you want to do this, don't come here. This is what will happen to you.

And so they're establishing some rules in that way. Amsterdam is also, along with many other cities like New York as well, has banned short-term rental platforms. So you have to get a permit in order to lease out a room or to lease out a house.

Venice famously put the 20 euro tourism tax if you want to access the city center, which has been quite controversial because anyone that wants to go to the city center has to pay the tax, even those people that work there. And so it imposes something on the freedom of movement of Italian citizens as well. And so that's been controversial. So each city, each tourist complex, it's

has a different set of tourism pressures that create what we would call overtourism. In Sicily, it's water, where last summer the drought was so severe that the Sicilian provincial government had to decide whether to deliver water to farmers or to five-star resorts with pools and golf courses. And you can guess what they chose.

Yeah. Because that's where their money is coming. So that's a form of overtourism is resource consumption. So each place has its own particular characteristics. And that's one of the things my group and I were trying to work on at New York University is understanding the quantitative elements of overtourism in a given place and how that changes over time in order to understand the risks that a city is exposed to by welcoming tourists into their midst. Yeah.

So it really is understanding the risks that you're exposed to. And so those, depending on those risks, you have certain policy options at your disposal. We've talked a lot about European destinations that are dealing with mass tourism or overtourism. What other parts of the world cities are really grappling with this right now?

Well, one famous case is Machu Picchu, which has seen the stones of the temple complex actually subside from the weight of so many tourist feet over the last years.

So that's a struggle there. And getting people up to that high mountain region and back in the trash situation is very complicated. Of course, Mount Everest has been over-touristed for some time with lines of people trying to get up to the top to take their selfie and then go back down and all the trash at the base camp.

It's been pretty extraordinary. The Yucatan Peninsula, especially the Riviera Maya, is suffering from tremendous amounts of over-tourism, which is linked with pollution and cartel activity and cheap flights. It's the backyard of the United States. And so it's...

That is a place that's also really grappling with issues of arbor tourism. Oaxaca, also Hawaii, Thailand. I don't know if any of the listeners will remember the movie The Beach from Leonardo DiCaprio filmed on Kofi Phi Island. The next year that island was just absolutely destroyed by tourists. But then this is also something that the Thai government is promoting. And so the recent...

White Lotus season was filmed in Thailand with the support of the Thai Ministry of Tourism. And when I went through LaGuardia a couple months ago, there was an ad

in the airport showing the scenes from White Lotus with Kettle One Vodka and a couple other brands that were advertising saying come to Koh Samui or Phuket, I think it was, and have your vacation here. And so it's tricky because it's everywhere. And in some places, one tourist is over tourism. In some places like New York,

We wouldn't notice if there were an extra 5 million tourists in here because there's 66 million tourists in New York in here. So 70 or 60 doesn't make so much difference. It kind of just...

You've also got some lesser visited cities and regions, I think, positioning themselves as destination dupes, you know, so that you can still get an authentic experience, but with far fewer crowds and maybe the fraction of the price.

I'm just thinking of sustainability. What would it take for the tourism industry to become more sustainable for the planet and also for the people who live in these destinations? I imagine going to dupes is one option, but also major players like airlines and short-term rental companies, like you've said, also have a responsibility. Talk to us about the sustainability aspect, how we can become more sustainable with tourism. Stay home.

Travel locally. Don't travel.

where 2019 saw 1.5 billion international tourists. And now we're back to that. And that is, Harold, it is a good thing because of economic growth, sustainable growth. And so from my perspective, we need to stop talking about it in terms of sustainability because it's inherently unsustainable. Unless you consider the three questions I always ask about sustainability is what is being sustained, for whom, and under what conditions?

And so if we're sustaining infinite economic growth through flying very wealthy people from one side of the planet to another, if that's what's going to sustain economic growth, then we're really just transferring wealth from the Japanese to the Hungarians, from the Germans to the Spanish, from the Spanish to the Mexicans.

And so is that sustainable? No. Environmentally, impossible. Socially, also not sustainable. Politically, highly unsustainable when we have a refugee crisis and still 85% of the world's population has not been on an airplane. And so tourism is a product of over-accumulated wealth, which is an indication of inequality, and so is unsustainable.

Uh, and so I prefer to think about this as being more hospitable. Um, and so how can we act as good guests? How can we be good hosts? And this includes airlines or businesses. If we think, if we wrap this around the notion of hospitality instead of sustainability, we can think about being good guests on the planet. And so what are the planetary consequences and the political consequences of our travel decisions? Um,

And if that's not in the forefront of people's minds, I understand that because a holiday is baked into capitalist work culture as well. You have two weeks or three weeks and you want to get out of your city because it's chaotic and crazy. But, you know, for instance, in New York, there are plenty of places within a city

three-hour drive or a train ride that are just spectacularly beautiful, but people are more likely to get on a plane and cross the ocean than to explore the Catskills or the Outer Hondas or the main coast or even Quebec. Christopher Gaffney is a professor at the Tisch Center of Hospitality at New York University. Thanks so much for coming on, Chris. Thanks so much for having me on. It was a pleasure to talk with you. Yeah, thanks. You know, it's so interesting hearing that because, like,

There are so many places I want to go and I see all these social media posts about, you know, over tourism, mass tourism, how to be a responsible traveler. And it does feel like you can't really win because like I was interested to hear him say that –

money that comes from tourism and the economic benefit of tourism in these places is often not distributed widely in the economy. And, you know, you mentioned... Sicily example. Yeah. You mentioned those sort of destination dupes. I know our colleague Elizabeth Troval just did a story on that yesterday based on some data from Bank of America showing that a lot of people, especially millennials, are, you know, opting for those second-

I hesitate to say second tier locations, but those alternate locations that maybe are a little bit cheaper and a lot less crowded. I know. And it's honestly a better experience. My husband and I went to Indonesia a couple of years ago and everyone was telling us, you need to go to Bali. You need to check out this temple, go to this mountain. And after we did more research, like, yeah, we could go, but it just felt like they'd be overcrowded and

And so we looked into it more and ended up going to more remote areas. And we went to this like island that tourists don't go to, at least not international tourists. A lot of local residents go to. And honestly, it was much better. Like, I don't know what it would have been like to go to Bali, but we had a great time. Like we just spent, like,

Like we created a little routine. We went to this local coffee shop at night where they did karaoke and there was this local band and we ended up becoming friends with them. And like to the point where we even like celebrated one of the bandmates birthdays on the second night. It was just, and when we think back on that trip, we think of our memories that we made with people there who we met. And I don't think we would have had that experience had we gone to somewhere that is more, you know, like Bali or wherever. Yeah.

And so, yes, I think about this a lot too. And definitely whenever I'm thinking of travel, I'm trying to be more intentional about what can I contribute to? Like, how can I contribute to the local economy? And what can I, like, why am I even going in the first place? And oftentimes it's not to just like take a selfie in front of the thing that everyone wants to take a selfie in front of, right?

Yeah, you want to experience the place. Well, we want to hear what you think, where you want to travel, how you think about traveling and avoiding being a mass tourist, but still kind of seeing the places you want to see. You can leave us a voicemail at 508-827-6278, also known as 508-UBSmart, and we'll be right back. ♪

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Hi, Make Me Smart team. This is Rob from Detroit, Michigan. Rachel from Tempe, Arizona. Long time podcast listener, first time voice memo-er. I had a question. I love your take on it. Thank you for making me so much smarter. All right, it's time for the mailbag. First up is a voicemail from Becca in Fairfield County, Connecticut, with her thoughts on the proposed heat regulations for workers that we talked about last week.

I would like to highlight that one of the proposed changes, the requirement that there is a 15-minute break every two hours, already exists in my union. I'm a proud member of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, and we fight for these minimum things that workers should have and more. So workers out there, just remember that if your employer won't help and the government won't help, you have the power to do something about the way you're being treated at work.

I love that. We are not without agency, even in a moment when it feels like the government may not be the most responsive to the average working person. There are still things you can do. Yeah. Yeah. Good reminder that a lot of protections already exist in union contracts because workers organize to make them happen. That's amazing. Exactly. All right. Here's one more.

Hi there, Kimberly. This is Ryan from Ellicott City, Maryland. Just listened to the podcast where you talked about being allergic to mangoes while living in Egypt where everybody loves mangoes. Well, try being allergic to crab and living in Maryland. I have problems all the time. Oh, Ryan, bless your heart. That's tough. That's a tough one.

For people who don't know, like the Maryland crabs is a thing. I actually had crabs with a friend. Blue crabs. I had those with a friend of mine just like a week or two ago. And they were great. And I am very sad for you, Ryan. But also, man, I can't imagine being a Marylander and also not being able to eat crabs. So thank you for the solidarity, Ryan.

All right. Before we go, we're going to leave you with this week's answer to the make me smart question, which is what is something you thought you knew, but later found out you were wrong about? This week's answer comes from travel writer, Jessica Plotvian. Well, I used to think that air travel with only a carry on was the superior way of doing things and that gaming the system, avoiding fees, being a minimalist just made you a better traveler. But

but I've come to realize that checking a bag is actually really liberating. There's nothing wrong with wanting outfit options. It's nice to go hands-free at the airport. I personally don't like stressing about what I'm going to bring or if I'll have space to buy souvenirs. And only about 5% of bags get lost, so the odds are actually in your favor.

I'm not saying we should overpack and there's definitely a time and place for carry on only travel. But I'm here to release the people from that pressure if it stresses them out. Absolutely. If it's more than two days, I'm checking a bag because like I want my creature comforts when I'm traveling and I'm willing to pay the fee or and deal with the carriage baggage carousel to make that happen.

I really, yeah, I have a whole system where I love, I do love my carry-on, I will say that. But the wheels, I invested in a nice suitcase, splurged a bit on the wheels that are like multi-directional so that you can easily, you know, go through the airport and then put your purse or your backpack on top of it. That is like a system that I love, can be still like, you know, relatively hands-free. Yeah.

But, you know, also I'm thinking of what Chris said at the end of the conversation where he was like, just don't travel. That's also an option. You know, we were talking, we're talking a lot about travel right now. I also just really appreciate the perspective of you can stay at home and explore your local, your home and your community and surroundings. And this is also a very privileged conversation when we're talking about international travel. It is. That is my way of saying that. Like, oh, yeah.

No, no. Yeah. No, I appreciate you explicitly saying that. Exactly. Yeah. It's like if you don't have the money to travel, which a lot of people don't, especially travel internationally, these conversations are not just irrelevant, but sometimes they can feel like, oh, wow, you know, cry me a river worrying about over tourism when, you know, we have real big problems in America. And yeah, there are a lot of amazing places to see in the United States, in our own communities that we can be going to as well.

But we want to hear your answer to the Make Me Smart question. Leave us a voicemail at 508-UBSmart or email us at makemesmart at marketplace.org. Make Me Smart is produced by Courtney Bergseger. Today's program was engineered by Mingxin Zhiguang with mixing by Charlton Thorpe.

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