Chris Dixon On Crypto, AI, and Why We Need Blockchain More Than Ever
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Open source is a miracle. A crazy bunch of hackers on the internet have built the greatest Operating system in the world, the greatest website from the world. Social networking became on by companies.

And my mind that money would otherwise be going to the edges of the network. I'm not sort of a blockage is a community own financial service. IT figured out a way to sell fund service.

That idea appeals to a lot of people. We've had something on the order companies who have the bank. You see the word of chain, they will call you and say thanking you the next battle in crypto that hasn't really fully started yet. We'll be about whether you can have your own world. And this will effect the new line of attack is that is terrible financing, which none of the data shows.

This concerns me how much power is putting in the hands of corporations that i've already proved in. They do not necessarily have my best interest in mind.

Just bizarre that we would let somebody who happen to build some technical infrastructure have the power to control global politics, global business and global culture. Part of my point of book is just say, like, don't think this is an incredible branch factory. We want to .

work on IT this room for hope we would be that we can make IT out of this regulatory environment.

A guys, welcome back to the pod today. We have with us Chris dicks in the founder managing partner of a sixteen e crypto and the author of this fantastic book read right own also a friend of mine. I'm super excited for this conversation.

Obviously, i'm aware of you kind of role you've played in silicon Amberley and investing and certainly crypto um but the book is awesome and I really I was kind of worried going going I going and I was like a man I hope this book is good because how many how to talk you about award and IT would be really awkward if I didn't like IT. I loved IT. There are A I guess, just high level.

I think that there are not enough great like history books of the internet and this for me I guess I I was reading early early on um that was the very first like you know, page in the introduction. Even the burly chapter for one when I started for me was like wild this is I don't there's probably interesting out there of the internet but is comparable but like this for me felt like the first thing that i'd read that that really took us to the beginning. Um and um any internet protocol so sentence one a network architecture is destiny.

Um first of philotas tic persons. Um I think IT is absolutely true. It's a vocative of martial mclain to me. You kind of trapped within the systems that are created by people a long time ago and you have this opportunity inherent of new networks to create new rules that um influence the world and perhaps a Better way or a worse way depending.

I have a lot of questions both on the history and I I want to really lay that out because I did think I was so exciting just to read through. Um we're going to talk about the the three different networks that kind of exist as you've illustrated. Um we're going to talk with the three different types of networks were going to get to the block chain eventually as um an answer to this current moment that we live in, which is dominated by corporations.

The very first thing that I want to do is begin with like the miracle of the of the internet protocol, which which feels to me, uh, as I was reading, you laid down that history IT reminded me of the founding of amErica in that IT was really weird and almost shouldn't have happened. Uh, you had this like vacuum of power, where a handful of ideological people that then committed, I don't know, suda libertarian founder type people on today, like blue, like blue happy libertarians forty years ago, like a twenty three year old like happy deciding the the the future of uh the structure of the internet. Um we felt like a precious gift and I think people don't understand that. And I was hoping maybe you could just start with with with that. Like could you take us back to the any history?

No, it's a great question. And just just in writing the book, I I think that there are some good histories of the internet. There's um like k half or whether there was a step late is about sort of the early you know kind vent surf. And in I P stuff there's a few other interesting books.

I I don't think their books that look at IT to the lens of kind of economics and power, which is really kind of lens I look at IT through, like how how is IT built in such a how is IT built? And why did the way I was built affect how the money in the power float? Like, I do think that I believe this is the least to mind knowledge of the first sort of attempt to do that.

I think, by the way, that's when I rode the book, I was like, this is above good and bad that I have to I like it's good and that I am up to just say something I think that hasn't been said. The risk is i'm sort of asking the reader to to buy into a bunch of new tanks and sort of making I sort of described IT to my editors like i'm asking you to believe not one big new thing but two big new things, right? Um and maybe that's too far outside of the over ten winter.

I guess we will see you when people read the book. But the first new thing you have, i'm trying to argue, as you said, is that network architecture is that that that essentially our network design is destiny. That the way to think about and by the way, the things are about to say, I would say our kind of standard knowledge among internet veterans um but not among the mass citizen.

So and I I always found when I went on, tried to explain block chains and things that I, in an hour conversation IT was very chAllenging because people didn't have that that prerequisite knowledge. And I was a long time bloggers and am a big believer that I don't like a business book if it's going to be, if you can be a blog post. But I would just felt really strongly. This case, like you just have to have two hundred pages, is to like make to make this case.

I this way I wanted to start, I know it's blockchain in obvious. You in Better A C, C grip. You do need IT. You like actually need this to understand why that matters. I I think you do.

I think you do. So, yeah, so so the kind of simple way to think about is the internet in network of networks. So there's sort of a base layer, and this is part of the genius of the design, is a base layer called in its protocol called internet protocol I P.

See if when you type in a number in your browse, that's address right and that sort of the bit as the base layer. And one of the genius things in the design is the base layer is is unopinionated IT just move bits around, okay? And anyone can add a computer to the network and IT doesn't care with the bits are in effect.

This is very interesting history. I didn't t right here. There were a lot of alternative uh, proposals back then. If you go back to the eighties, nineties, which were highly opinionated protocols, which had things like the ability to sensor and do other things and and you could and attacked a lot of smart people thought those were Better ways because they were sort of fully featured and did all this stuff .

and um and as a whole interesting history as to why they didn't win. How didn't I mean, how did you gave the birthday of the net?

I jana, I maybe one, I was one, but yeah but IT. So that was sort of the day that I P became. I mean, they are all so what in the seventies and even so, yeah, in the seventy essentially there was darpa, arpa and that would they connected a bunch of universities but they still had sort of a little bit of tower bible. There were different protocols, different and so eighty one was when they when they said, okay, let's all um let's all standardize on IP internet protocol and have that be kind of the linger Franka so that we can all speak together right and so that that some people would say, I mean, you could debate IT because this is one of these .

sort of brick things. How do how many how do people decide on what is I guess so what for people who I have, my audience is both technical and non technical lic. We're talking about the thing that allows us to have something like um anyone can have a website and anyone can have any email address and IT can be taken away from you.

Yeah like I mean it's that's like the kind of distilled version of what we're talking about here. Um how was that allowed? Yeah so this is only .

you're very important there. So you had IP and then you have to think of DNS, which we still have a course, which is you know if you have a domain name, you're going to DNF. And D, N S.

Was a very, very important thing. So I began actually a lot of this. That was a very bottom of the saying.

There was not, yes, there was not A, A, A set, a committee when they were committees and thing. But really, IT was bottom m up. IT was offered developers sort of coming together and sort of an open source, right, and saying, hey, this is cool. This works right. And so for a long time, when you had this problem on on the internet, you in the year for a long time, in the seven eighty where IT was really hard to know, to remember, your every computer has a number.

The numbers you people are probably seen these know two, forty six, one, twenty two, seven, five, two or whatever, right there, four numbers separated by periods that sort of the you your address every computer has an address on the internet, but those are very hard to remember and so people started um keeping what they called post files, which is a file on your computer that's a mapping of like mixon's. Is this number right? I was just sort of what the hackers did because hackers of the type of people, that if you got a problem, if you write some sort and my and then the problem was, how do you sink the host files, right? Like I have a difference that a host files, you changes.

Then of course, they wrote thinking software and did all of things that, and eventually, hey, we should all get together, have a system. And they called the DNS. And I was basically a system where they know today has these, what I call the group servers, and those servers kind of keep a master post file, and then that propagate down all of the machines and IT make sure that keeps IT all saying actually is not perfect.

Like for people to know this ever domain, to change you to remains and have to take the dare to to propagate, right? But that's what's happening is the machine is copying those both. But the very t there's a very, very important thing here, which is not technical.

It's really economic and and is really a power and money in the end, which is that IT in that design. And this is just the hackers doing and I don't think they were thinking long term about economics and but they said, of course, the user mike salona should control um that his mapping right you should control your mapping of your domain name. So you know um by wires um you control the mapping to work.

So the computer you're to the computers that are the host. That right and that and that I think initially was done just because that seemed like a natural thing to do, you know and I was sort of like, this is a and network owned by the user. Why wooden? The users control this, and there was no centralized entity to really control of the time anyways.

But what IT ended up meaning is that IT shifted power to you, right? Because let's say you today, you host your files at. You know, hosting provider and let's say that hosting provider decides they want to they don't like your content or they want to charge you more money.

Or think about all the things that social networks are doing today. We don't like that. You're linking out of your out of your blog post. Yes.

I know that.

Imagine to imagine if that happened with your way hosting provider. You d say, fuck, fuck you. I'm in the switch.

right? I mean, web so that we're talking about companies like you would not be able to build a company in an environment like that. That that was .

thing is a downstream in the nineties. What happened is because of this little architectural thing that you controlled, you had this little plot of land, okay, you everyone got a little plot of land, and you could do whatever you want with that land. And that that is ultimately head in a bunny profound downs.

Am, count you described IT in the book is property rights and IT is property right? I mean, I value that. I have c dicks and at work, and I know I will always have that.

And no matter what they rules, they make any social network. Now, maybe no one will ever go there anymore because, you know, internet and spot companies and known logical link out for something. But but at least you have IT right? Yeah, our world docotor mine. And so and and I and Better, you value IT business people value IT and you value that you have your email, for example, probably right. And think email, by the way, also of course.

is used DNS and uses. And so yes, this is I guess I as I was reading that I was getting excited. I was remembering just this, this like this precious gift that we were given in the book.

There's a passion I want to read. A broad community of researchers and developers spearhead ad of the international development through the next couple decades. These academics and tankers brought with them a tradition of open access.

They believed in the free exchange of ideas, equal opportunity and maroon racy. In their view, the people who use internet services, the users should have control the structural governance of their research communities, advisory groups and task forces embodied their democratic ideals. IT was like, we were lucky that these people were the ones who built the internet, which nobody cared about back then, but then became the most important tool in the world.

Now, I think the to bridge to the next p. So this is the read kind of the read error right to bridge to the next piece the right error. Um when you have a system that's open like this and you can build companies, uh that have value, that happens and they they emerge.

That brings us to the next area, the web two point o era. Couple questions here. You want to just kind of introduced that me so so the .

way I think about in the reason the books could read right down as I think of the and by the way, so I think the internet is what are going to three years as um the read right part by the way, is a common um it's not mine, it's a common way describe IT. In fact, the so called web two movement in the two thousands, like an alternative named for was the read right movement.

There were conferences, there was a famous website read right, or there is read right web so that this was a common terminal and and I actually quote te the opening manifesto of read right webs like two thousand and three um but the basic idea is that in the the internet of the ninety, so sort of multiple threats are sort of the architecture like the so the the things we are talking about, protocols and thing. But the separate thing of how do we use the internet? And in the nineties, what happened is what happens to a lot of forms of media.

When you have me know when films, when films started in the early twenty th century, right? The early films were just sort of people taking a camera and film to play here. And I took a, you look at a modern film like open heim, and there's all of this laborat grammar that goes on, right, this close ups and stabbing shots. And I would even know half of IT. But now there's there's a language this developed over time, the word.

so the phrase .

I use this, this is coming from Steve jobs. Steve jobs had this phrase you like skorpios, which refers to, you know, like you remember the original iphone, and had like A A book, a book APP that had like a grainy book shelf. He used to like to do things like design that kind of reminded you of the last era.

So they would make you more accessible and and scheme pic i've come to use and other people have as a broader term to mean whenever you have sort of a new wave of tack, the first thing people often do is they sort of important things from the prior former media um and so for in the early nineteen, sorry, in the nineties, a lot of the web was essentially brochures, catalogues. People took kind of ideas, know things that you would exist in the offline world and they sort of made versions of them. And good.

There's probably right, right website you can go to and look at that. They look like these like flashy brochures, like these big, how ridiculous things. Um IT IT was charming, but but I didn't look, I think then what happened in the two thousands and this one I really got involved, and I started my first company and I was in service of active brisport, the web community.

The exciting idea then was, hey, we haven't really tapped into the power of this medium, right? The real power of this medium is that can be read and right, meaning you cannot just sort of you can do, it's really cool that you can type a word in and, you know, instead read about Abraham lincoln, n, which is what you could do in the nineties with the search engine, you know, and and all these information size. But what if anyone could publish to what if I was a two way, me IT was both you could read information, but you could write information that read, write is sort of a nerd phrase, all looting the file systems.

But that was sort of the phrase people use um and so the idea was you know that that began a blogging right so there was a little bit of that in the nineties but really in earnest like blogging and these other kind of websites popped up in the two thousands IT IT was still very nerdy um and and hard to use and you till we had to configure your own website and settle with HTML and do all these kinds of things. Very interestingly, by the way, I I was there remember sort of the paramedic soup modern social media. You had tumble blogs which become tumblr r you had short you what called link blogs, which became twitter.

You had, you had photo blogs, you know, which became instagram. So I think, I think you sort of said all of the kind of original patterns were happening in the blog format. And then what course happened is entrepreneurs like marco berg, G, J, these other people are, they took these kind of primordial ideas, and they package them in more accessible forms, and and they raised funding.

and and they raised funding.

And if we had a very important part of this, and and I think and important, so and in part of this right is there was a, there a, there were two. There were two pass we could take at that point. There was a, no, there is a protocol.

L, R, S, S. People know about R S. R S today is used in podcasting and a few other context. But at one point, I would say up until two thousand and eight, IT was a legitimate, like the data shows that I had as many users as facebook into IT.

Like IT was a legitimate, there was able, legitimate horse race going on effectively, free and open, open and working protocol. So like the way that we have free and open, you know, web protocol, free and open email protocol, we could have had a free and open social media today. I my view, we took a fork and we could have taken a different four in the road and we could have free and open society. And that has.

by the way, the ten IT is like the pivotal was at the pivotal year two thousand nine.

twenty ten. Yeah, I was around two thousand ten. I think maybe eleven twelve was year that that twitter turned off as the google reader shut down.

So I was sort of the final end of IT, but IT was happening for a couple of years. Um you know when it's sort you look what had so yes, so basically you have these new services come up like what I got subsidies. So you know I the case study I using the book is youtube.

So and I remember this clearly in two thousand and five, youtube came at, started as the dating site and a pivoted to the video site. And at the time, if you wanted to have loved one are having video on their blogs. Um if you had two choices, you could use open R S S. And I mean, I actually like install some videos software on your server you had to pay for hosting was very expensive and youtube came along g and they said, look, all you have to do is click a few buttons and will pay you can emt IT in your in your blog and by when I was original, pitch was an ebel in your blog. Not no one went to youtube back.

You just want to embed in your blog and was that was a killer feature that that they had this embed H D M L code right at the top um but the killer thing was a subsidized right they pay for free hosting and in the trade they made is but we're not going to also show the video on youtube doc m which was like, okay, why not like I don't care. Right more traffic um but then of course what happened later on is that is that, uh no, that youtube dom came place, everyone went instead of the website. Powerful network of first year.

And I was the calculation of vcs me, they were smart and they understood this. They understood that if they put in billions of dollars to subsidize the the hosting that sunday, the product like today, while analysts say you two hundred and forty billion, that might be more know probably they probably spent ten billion in the initial subsidies. So that was the trade, the kind of economic trade.

And our just couldn't ep up with that. How why would you want to use something we need? Know, as a blogger in your castle APP, you're not going to do IT, right? So that so that's one read.

So anyway, so so so at the time, there were sort of a real question. And so as we had this sort of web to movement happening and the the web became interactive and. Publishing became not just consumption of information, but the publishing of information became democratized.

There was a question as to how would this be architect that would have be done in the open way of the early internet, where the users and the creators and the software developers and and entrepreneurs are empowered or will be done in this sort of centralized way. And of course, fast ford IT was done in the centralized way. And I believe this is sort of the key moment.

Understand why the internet has now become essentially console around five companies. Was that that was the moment and and is a sheet like the economic it's little bit surprising to me like I would hope people could read this spoke. And even if you don't, callie, even in the block chain stuff, just understand that like that that swing of of like that, the fact that that that social networking became on by companies, and my mind that money would otherwise be going to the edges of the network swang IT to five companies when I could have been over to the kind of the users of the network. So IT was a very consequential, uh, I believe I was an extremely consequently and I think it's overlook. That's why I thought like even it's a little bit kind of nerdy and everything else, I felt important to put the book because I really think that has profound economic consequences.

yes. Now the shift from R S style of things to the twitter ifor ation of the world is IT happens because twitter is Better, right? It's like IT happens because more got tons of funding.

You are herring, tons of developers. You make IT easier for people to use and then you have the network which becomes unescapable. That's the m as a thing that you stick around for. I think what's interest one of the interesting things about this to me in .

in the the deference .

between two models, the sort of uh, the R S model, vers, now the corporate model that is owning control by central group of players who have all of the financial gain and also in critically control. So fast forward to the elections and things like the election and cover that I M in everything that you've not been able to say or share online as how to do with this pivot in the road. IT is overseen by someone who I have tremendous.

I love jack orsi. He is someone who seems to care about these things, and not even he can really resist the market forces that lead him to you characterize this question for companies, Young founders who want to maintain for free in this environment uh as like you can either add here to your values or succeed as a company is is basically IT like there's not really a way to succeed as a corporation um unless you play to win. And that inevitably places us in competition with uh the corporation like a in my house in never only places corporations in competition with the users on the platform a way out of that.

Yeah I have this, have this section. The book I called the attracts extract cycle. And I I argue that every network goes through every come corporate on network goes through this this cycle, which is they start off in the beginning.

They obviously, they don't have network effects yet. They want to build network effects and so they do everything they can to solicit users. You know come like media size, content size, you think about like early youtube and they were out like B, D teams about pitching in the yr times and cbs and things like this.

And then um and and then over time, what happens is, you know all technology, this is not unique to to my to networks, but all technologies were falling askar, right? They start off. They they grow a little bit. They hit there is successful. They are kind of ramp.

And then there's some point the growth and slows down just inevitably because there's only some of people the world um and when they get to the top of the s like you think about the logic of a google or something like all of google is based around twenty percent revenue year of your growth like you go read the wall street reports, like the whole machine is based around getting twenty percent year of the year growth right? And and to be clear, i'm not in the book and and or ever critical the individual people here and in the system like I like a lot of the people and I think there are intention, including jacket. I think it's the system that's the issue is the system of having these companies on these networks anyway so as to take the google.

So like you, you're growing. You need to grow twenty percent area. All of your employee compensation is mostly stock options. They all expect twenty percent area well, expect twenty year.

They're not getting twenty percent year a year and more from organic growth, right? So how do they get the twenty percent they started? They squeak more and more jews of the stone, right? And that and that if you go to your mobile phone now and search for, I don't know, a restaurant or travel or something, the entire first page will be the google on properties or ads, right? You know, you see this on amazon is more and more ads.

You see this pressure that on twitter and facebook, the big thing now is time spent, right? They to keep you in the ecosystem is not enough to have a bunch users. They they can be clicking out, you know, they start to view things like substances as economic leakage, right? Because you in some way, sub stack patron is a whole ecosystem of of the websites who were basically are kind of offer amps from the corporate network back to the freedom, the haven of protocol networks, right? I mean, why is not a coincidence that this sort of sub stack patriot ds built on website, sub stack built email, like all this sort of trying to say, hey, you could still build your audience on twitter, but you can monitor ze on the goods fashioned, old fashioned brief window before now there's a crackdown going and twitter, all all the social networks. Now I did in three years you're going to .

see just very little linking up works what is blamed for the link apocalypse? Um and he was awful I mean, personally I hate but he he was actually doing was he he I think Doris, he had allowed something to persist for a while that was not in the best interest of the company and IT was weird and uh elan came in immediately just do with everybody else was already dealing.

You're on something yeah I think take off and and I don't use them a lot but my understanding is you can barely link out and yeah you I I .

want to cap this really quick because I I want to get to block chain stuff. You're a part of this like history like you're there while all this the shifts are happening and you're calling shots and it's got to be to a certain extent, frustrating for you looking back, you um you share .

a blog post and .

I wanted just quickly be from IT um in two thousand and nine. The problem is twitter isn't really open. For twitter to be truly open, IT would have to be possible to use twitter without in any way involving twitter, the institution.

Instead, all data goes. Twitter centralized service. Today's dominant core internet services, the web HTTP email m tp and subscription messaging R S S, are open protocols that are distributed across millions of institutions.

If twitter of plants rs s IT will be the first core internet service that has a single four crypt gatekeeper, at some point twitter will need to make lots of money to justify their valuation. Then we can really assess the impact of having a single company control a court internet service. And in a sense, I feel like this book is that assessment um maybe like the first assessment of of this kind. And interestingly, like you say, like you're calling the shots, but you are also building on top of twitter and that was your company A I like hunch.

I was an AI company. I saw that started in two thousand and and sold the event thousand eleven.

So you've got got to take me now to the new era because we are living. I think this be like, except the stage we're living in the world now, where everything that we do on the international control by a small handful of companies, um I at this point in the conversation, I look kind of laid down my cards on the table. I feel like I am fox mulder here like I want to believe I am desperate to believe that there is new era is possible.

We're going to get get out of this situation. I'm a little concern that you have four shadowed the core problem here. When you talk about R, S, S, you said R, S, S, expected too much from users.

And that is, I read that I thought this is like, this is how I viewed the last wave, the last bull run in in cyp. Du, it's like IT really felt like way too much was expected of the average person. And in that environment, IT is so complicated with the ease of the corporate tools.

And I I didn't see a way to win. Um I wanted to win. I wanted hear I have a lot of questions about this. But first, could you kind of like break down, uh, the revolution that was bitcoin, what that what that made, what the block chain .

network made possible yeah I am so the shirt and so you bit the bitcoin started with the bitcoin White paper um in two thousand is two thousand eight um and yeah written by, as everyone knows, a sudan minus person inside I moto and you know, I think like a lot of people I thought I was of interesting and curious about, I got really into IT, probably thousand and twelve and then started making investments like coin days and uh, bitcoin mine.

Actually biology, biology should of us since a bitcoin mining company was my first investment thousand thirteen and um and so you know I kind of got into that world and body was interesting and know for me um I like I came to IT from this land of of you what I write about the book which is I I was I was frustrated that protocol networks, which I believe IT looked by the way, I say this is a book. If there were a way to bring R S, S. Back and we didn't need block chains, like I would be the first one.

And okay, like i'm not i'm not sort of a blockchain maxim im I am an open internet maximum. okay. So um I just have seen that like has been thirty years and the only only two protocol networks scale, and they were both started the one thousand eight and I and I think they succeeded partly because they just they were kind of incubated in patchy fish, you know the environment.

They didn't have to compete in the rough ocean of corporate. Competition, right? Um and since then, they have articles are not been able to compete. So when I saw the blocks in, I like this is interesting because you get a lot of these properties of protocol networks, but you can also do more things.

And specifically, it's a way it's a way I I think if IT is now the way to address the two shortcomings of R S S, which are features in funding, right? So so block chains, one of the interest things with block change that they have their own internal funding mechanism. So this is a big point, like a big coin in a digital goal. And that's interesting. And we can talk about that if you want.

But there's s not really interesting thing, right, which is IT figured out a way to sell fund services, right? So we basically there's a system called mining where you know people may know about this, where essentially the bitcoin using bitcoins itself and kind of a circular way is funding its own its own of hosting costs um and that so that was sort of a route into kind of subsidization. And you know if you going back to the youtube bar asset thing, right, like okay with this is interesting because maybe you could do a variation of this.

We're like it's actually funding a bunch of other things, right? Um and then on the feature side, I mean, look going back our s one of the big shortcomings feature wise of these open systems was the fact that you had like in the flow, in the sign up flow for our access and said, go to go daddy I and pay eight dollars and by domain and then twitter said, click a button and get a get a name for free okay and that was a killer that that alone probably killed our R S. I mean, I think a lot of tech people don't realizes, but domain ames are not consumer problem. Like I have one, you have one businesses have them go stop somebody on the street and be like, why would I have that? It's not like IT is not I think a lot of people that like R S S, people who are my friends and I like them, I like guys like this, not a consumer product like most not to pay hate box a year for this thing.

That's like there are these people who who are still cleaning to R S S. They are. And look, that left .

just and I and I do I really do group for them, but I just don't think it's realistic to ask people to pay a um and do all the little you know the set up and all the other kinds of things. And so one of the other interesting properties of book chains, where do they have not? They have their own they have their own storage space.

You can store names and things in all other kinds of stuff on a block, right? So it's got, so it's a protocol in the way you can go a block chain, a protocol like R, S, S, well, with its own internal source of funding and its own way to store information, which lets you get to Better features. Now to your point, I agree with you completely that like a lot of it's both in the last wave of blocking ing p, but also today, the features are not there yet.

And I think and I said this in the book, I never get a minimum. We need feature. I don't think you'll ever be web two on features because it's really nice on features. I think we should get to feature parity, and I do think that we will get there.

So just sort of like you won't feel like it's different, but then you'll have but then why would you adopt IT? Because instead of getting zero percent of the economics or two percent of the economics in nineteen eight percent of economics and there, so so I think like the way I think about IT is the way the path of Victory is a feature parody at a minimum. Um and I get i'm tired deep into the infrastructure, obviously, in my day job.

And I do think we'll get there and I think it'll be in the near future and I will have future parity. And you won't know. And you think if you go to forecasting today is getting pretty is not quite there, but it's getting pretty close to future parity. Um with the with the central lize social it's social network built on a blockchain. Um it's not quite there but but I think I will get there. Um and and so and then the the adding if you get feature parity and then you get all of these other things, specifically economic things, I think I think um going to people like you and you know if if we can get a for example, a bloc k chain social network to scale um and and the pitch to a creator is that you get to keep most of the money like that can be an international pitch, right but what I think i'll say is like the the point of the book, there also is not to are not expecting to completely convinced everybody that like this is the answer. I'm just like I just say about the day of the world right now, there are very powerful forces trying to ban all the block change um and so I am trying to and like and I don't completely blame them because their view of IT is is is john is by the casino stuff that they see the F T X.

I don't think so. I I don't think that let's I was going to say that this for the we can get IT into IT. Now it's about this with .

war and I very well, I just like to part of my point of book, you say, don't want this. This is a credible this is a credible branch of the textor. We want to work on IT put guard rails around IT, if you want, but like just, you know so i'm not necessarily expecting everybody to read IT to walk away and say, oh my god, i'm putting my job and doing this but I hope they would read IT and say, hey, this is actually like a credible, valuable thing. And I can see why some people are excited about IT. That's all i'm sort of asking of the reader.

I now worried my user, perhaps a little more radical than yours. So I am looking at this word. I learned the word scheme pic from you before the .

great word um i've might pronouncing IT right skorpios .

of people c technology or application of blockchain is money right? It's like that's what the coin is at the first we so blocking essentially in introduces um scarcity into the digital world for the first time ever. Uh you can clone a thing a million times and you talk about the difference of fundable and non fungible tokens.

But just the idea that something can be scared can be a limited number of things that are digital is really important. That means you can store value a sudden. And so the first that we use, uh IT for the within the blockchain e exists was so c or so I of them there were um can create a form of money that is free from the rest of the world, can be inflated artificially by a government, can be taken away, um will always exist, invincible.

And so far, you know, was IT a fifteen years later, like still going strong. The value of IT, they people always focus on the value of bitcoin, like the number of the dollar number next to IT was important about bit. When is they still exist, right? Like haven't been IT hasn't they haven't not been destroy IT, they haven't been taken over like your bitcoin is your bitcoin.

Um I think that that concept separate from the entire other world of potentials like that, when we get these sort of furious world and you talk about um the block chain network as a layer on top of which whole metaverse is exist in what not like before we get to defend all of that possibility. There is just this one thing that already exists that is itself very threatening to a government that controls the money supply um IT places IT sort of in opposition to to people like a live more and who really want to control the money, the money supply because they want to control the country. And um I think it's like it's it's it's just a hard cell for an authoritarian like how how are you going to make that? I'm the authoritarian.

I'm liz warn. I want to control the world. What is your pitch to me to keep IT free?

Well I don't know for fifties with one coming convinced um that this should be kept free. I mean, there is a sort of big debate and for those don't follow the think of the C D B C central bank CBDC central bank to the currency that has been talking about a lot.

Um and I think well, I think in the next couple of years will become a big political issue um which is essentially this idea that you would have a digital currency that is issued by the government and fully controlled by the government and that that means, for example, the government revoke your money or put controls on your money um and that that that is a um looming I think that will be you know in the same way that what you can say on a social network was a hot topic last four years. I think that a lot of that, I believe a lot of that will ship to money. Course.

this is so much scarier. We saw in the trucker protest in canada was an our government. That was the government right up north that supposed be the Better government, the government, when you threatened to revoke banking or or you actually revoke banking critics of people who are protesting your government.

That's very scary. Giving them power over that. A scary.

Yeah, i'm guy. I don't you know, i'm not a sort of hard work libertarian. I very much believe that people should have control of their money. You know you obviously need safeguards for you know terrorist financing and money launder ing and all those other things. But but like like like I just you like in our portfolio, we've had something on the order, twenty companies who have been the bank um meaning like J P. Morgan went to their website and little if you see the word blockchain they will call you and say hi we're not banking you banking you and that's legal believe in and not um and and we we give up particularly records.

We expect at some point the justice thing.

it's like they're about gambling, not coin base. Like with these are literally these are literally companies that like get us we wire them us to hollers to their bank out and then they go build some blockchain infrastructure and many don't have tokens involved in.

They think right, like they are working on the stack.

So there is no risk of like volatility. They have no exposure to. Um to any crap to assets there, they are like building wallets because like literal software, yeah um they don't need that.

This is the crazy thing is that the banks don't need a justification. They can just do IT and you have no recourse and they do not need to tell you why. I was sort of done to learn about the whole world. Um yeah there is just you I think you had a you I think he was nara I think from on your side had a Operation showing show point point that gets very real the Operation show point two point.

I mean, I tell you, because we've had twenty companies like this is literally like we will sign a term shy right now where a big silica venture firm and we will sign a term shy with a bunch of kids out of M I T know top engineering team, and we'll a great work and war the money and like we don't we can get a bank count right um you like that's what we're talking about. We're not talking about some people in the baros running you know cyp to exchanges or something right right. Um like it's it's it's pretty crazy where people who .

do you want to focus on like S P F and what talk about casino at all. And I think these are basically distractions because I I don't believe that the push to ban this stuff is exists because that is with warrant is worried about S P, F stealing somebody's money. I just don't think that's true.

I think it's clearly about power. SHE wants IT and bitcoin a decentralizing or the block chain. And decentralizing technology is fundamentally a threat to power as all decentralizing technology as most technology in generally is other than that seems like increasingly by the day A I which I want to .

end with yeah like I think similar things about to happen and I with I order the look, the big thing is going to happen, i'll tell you like so right now, a lot of the focus in cypher u has been on security law. The esc. There's A A C B to see yesterday, they started trial with the sec.

And as a question of like are certain token securities, which necessary briefly, securities are a subset of assets in the world where there's a metric, there's a management team that that, that is working to, you know improve the value of that asset. And therefore, there's there's asem trc information. And the scs job is make sure that if there's asem trc information that is that is disclosed and uh properly and so the question is now and by the way, the the S C C is said the bitcoin is not a security a theory um is probably not a security.

Um the next battle in cypher to that hasn't really fully started yet. We'll be about whether you can have your own wallet and this will affect bitcoin, right? So like right now, you can have bitcoin at coin base or you can you know a lot of the more hard core people ah you have your own wallet that is going to be under threat. How like that it's you see the new the new line of attack is IT is terrorist financing, which none of the data shows this. It's um you know challis's said you know point two percent of all ecri pt to transaction.

This is a firm that makes their money selling software law enforcement and they said point two percent of encrypt to transactions are elicit and that's actually lower than in the fight number um so it's is simply not true um in fact like there was a journal article about alleging that some cyphered in the coin or something was sent to a moss and IT just was simply literally false on the company they decided came out the boy posting the it's just not the case. In fact, if you talk A W enforcement is a blockchain IT literally has a permanent audit trail of every transaction is is a terrible way to do money launder ing IT would be like the worst possible way. So it's just not true. But that's the line of attack. And the attack is why would you need to keep the big coin on your on your computer and hosted here and not with a register authority um you know and and and so therefore, that should be illegal, but that that is going to be the only how do they .

stop you from having a wallet because I don't host on my computer, right? It's like the block chain. I don't control the block name. It's IT exists separate from me and separate from .

my hardware. All I need is a code that control like over ten thousand dollars, like money under like you have to K Y C everything you know you go to going basis K Y C. By the way, there is a lot of misunderstandings about the K Y C. In two thousand thirteen, every user go through K Y C. Like this is just a bath that is not they have always had a big compliance group.

But then like if you want to send money, like how do you buy your bitcoin? Imagine this world world you have to go coin base U K Y and and A C hey, if you're sending more than nest, you have to register ister out like how do you get IT right um and so today they like it's U S government is Annie dent. They'll they if they decide to do, they'll do.

You know look, there's a lot of um um but but IT is not at all. You know there's there's there as a lot of people that don't agree with that, including people power, that we had a very similar uh, uh kind of debate in the nineties of a photography for those h because the public most of the hours are too Young. But there was a very serious legitimate attempt to ban crepy phy.

In fact, the scape hundred twenty a bit, netscape was classified as municipality, was in the same government class patients cruise missile, not one thousand, nine hundred and ninety nine. So they had to have a thirty two bit like basically one that was easy to crack if you were if you were outside of the U. S.

And you winter the website and you tried to downtown, you say, hey, you have to go to thirty two bit because aren't twenty eight bit. Is, is, is export munitions. And by the way, I think is what are going to do with the eye. I think the frontier frontier models are .

going .

to be are going to be musicians. I think that's what .

I mean the room for hope. Yer, so we're talking about the thing that seems prethident thing to the government um before we can even get to the potential of blockchain. Uh I mean, what do they also get make IT out of this regulatory environment?

Well, so I mean, you know, it's interesting. I I ve gotten the crash course. I spent a lot of time and I maybe going hat my time on policy. Now I outside like the books stuff and to the daytime b investing but i'm um yeah look at the three branches. The government are very important.

Um so the year, for example, with the security lost of the C C is lost in number cases um already um you know the um I think you know there's an important supreme court case coming up on this. This if you follow the shaft on reference is a very important case has to do with the power of the of the executive branch and the kind of the regulatory apparatus. S um essentially there is a there is a am not a leg expert, but there was a decision at one point to give them very wide birth in what they can do and this could limit that.

So there's a sort of this is meta thing going on which are not part of but there's a sort of you know the highland of fifty year battle going on between the different power relative power of the different branches of government, right? So legislative, executive and judicial and the basically the executive branch has sort of exerted more and more power. Um I would argue the AI executive order and look at that, that's a complete the executive order is just a complete planned to regulate A I and it's never gone through anyone elected officials really. I mean you know in the legislation de like I should be my view a lot of these things like should watch change be legal, should open source A I be legal like that's a question for democracy and the way you generally do that is through passing laws right um and and that's in look if we lose and by the way and so do your question like if if I believe if congress had a vote today so we would win a lot of these gript the issues, I think, yes, this haven't gone there a lot.

The chAllenges, lot of congresswomen have some exposure to big corn.

I think now and they but they're sympathetic to IT and and I think give them this the like i'll tell you, moisture is like meeting with elected officials is like a lot of well, red smart they have smart staffers like they get IT um or some set of them do um and and I think if they were like a vote today, that would actually be quite positive for block chains and they also probably for A I um but the activation energy required to get legislation passed is very high. And so what happens in the kind of void is that other entity step in and end up the fact you're regulating, which was happening today.

Let's say we make IT out of this environment, right? Um and there are some signs of just listed them then. Um I want to talk a little bit about the future of the block chain network. Um you have a quote in sort of contracting the second world in this new third potential um blockchain networks turn dop evil into campy evil. Their architecture provides a strong guarantees that their data in code will forever remain open and remixable this immediately it's true and yet immediately strikes me as something um that is a weakness of the network uh because corporations are doing the things they're doing, not because they're you know actually evil, but because they want to win. And if they can do whatever he takes to win and a network of blocked in really are are they sort of fundamentally um aren't blocked in network sort of fundamentally at a disadvantage of the corporations?

You you said yourself, why do you like bit in you like the fact that is twenty one million big coins and can go up, right? I mean, I like I think I think you see, I mean, you people say out to fifteen years, where's all the applications? I would say fifteen years. And there's a lot of people who really like the idea of decline and theory and and these other things that we can proceed by the energy and everything else and the idea that you can have a neutral, uh you know, a digital service that makes strong commitments is truly owned by the users as A N is a community owned financial service. Like that that idea appeals to a lot of people um including you, I think and .

so no IT does a lot but I don't so what lessons talk about something about a version of that can so twitter, for example, all of the content on twitter is generated by a small fraction of the people there and that's not I mean, the value is the number the number number people going to twitter to see funny shit or whatever IT is information like that what you're selling ads to a so you need a lot of people involved.

You need a lot of people bought into the concept who are not necessarily creating anything. You have to kind of convince everybody all IT wants that this is more valuable and what you seen, and I wonder what you think about this. So as crypto for for a long time, I i've thought about the um the change in like the crature friendly, the sort of new soft, the softer side of corporations, the creator friend meeting that was happening a couple years ago as a response to like sub stack.

Um you saw you saw a suddenly A A really aggressive pitch for for crater even on twitter and now under ill on the rise of um you know description revenue and things like this, which is pennies. Um I think maybe actually what I was response to was crypto IT was response to the web. Three thing was happening uh, because they were scared of of potentially a future where a significant number of creators would actually leave.

But the corporations are the corporations are smart. They are run by smart people who want to win. They immediately give just enough like on youtube they give quite a lot.

So like the man, the main the main players are like mr. Beast right now. Um he's pretty happy on youtube. It's going to take a lot to get him to sacrifice all of that to go to a new network. And you kind of don't you sort of need that don't you need all of these people maybe even take a short term hit for this long term game? Yeah like I think .

of IT is I mean sounds grandiose, but like we're thirty years into the internet and if that sounds great, do I mean I think of the internet is A I think IT will be a thousand, like it's gonna be one of these things like the printing Price, right? I don't think it's hyper ball like to say that and it's we're the very, very beginnings, right?

Um I think and there's going to be like a weather like and maybe and maybe in some cases, to your point, there are like people still excel is still very popular software even after whatever is forty years in google dogs and light yeah like a lot a lot of a lot of technology has a really long life cycle. And IT may be the case that social networking is so entrenched, as you say, that it's not a good place for block chance to try to to try to go um and and that maybe you know but look, there's for thirty years into IT, there's gonna be a thousand new networks created. There's gonna AI networks and you know and network metaphor stuff and video games and just like this going to be a million new networks I think um and so there's like this distinction, like they talk about an enterprise off for a Green field, Brown field.

Brown field is do you go and try to redo the old stuff and Green field is already you go to the so like there there's a fork in the road here and and like i'll grant you that maybe it's too tough on the older one. Like I still want to give you a shot and we're investing in people that they are going at IT, right? But IT, maybe that just the real opportunity is in the new stuff.

So we have like a bunch of them of people doing like cool kind of AI meets blockchain stuff as an example, financial services developing world, like there's a bunch of kind of more you know of frontier areas. So like i'm some you know I think you're making very good points now. I also say like when you know going going back to my putting my web two head on or something, there's a whole kind of theory of how you build market mark places, which is what youtube is, that marketplace mein a network where the two sides of the network, right? So there's sort of the creator side and the and the user side.

And I think the general of you would be that the way you go and and build a new like video network like that is you go in and get the craters right. You get like the top fifty craters, you sort get the supply sides. So does the demand follows, right?

Um and he look a lot of times lot of times like I loved that when strike raised their first round of funding, the vcs ask them who are your customers and they said they don't exist yet um you know which is uh youtube Better way youtube. But I was another giving on the youtube story at the time. There was two two sets of companies.

There was youtube which was like to wild west loud people accused that have just copyright infringement. And you know I mean there is a huge loss member. And then there was this sort of the there was as either say like brico and a bunch of other companies and said, you know, that's crazy.

What we're going to do is we're going to go to cbs and we're going to put, you know what's whatever the cbs T V shows are on on the internet to a sort of scheme more figure tive or something um and so anyway, so to the point about social network, maybe that look, mr. Bees, maybe a youtube driver, but there's gonna a new there's ten years ago, ten years from now, there's going to be a new thing. There's always a new set of people coming in.

And can you build systems where some of those people are attracted to IT and particularly on probably on the supply side, you know kind of the new creator wave and but there maybe some weird french thing and maybe there are big liners or they know their interested, maybe there A I box or something or A I avataras, I don't know there's going to be all sorts of crazy shit, right? And like how does that new crazy shit like itself? That's what that's what networks are, is like how do they decide to organize himself and do we offer them? Can we meaning people like me and the ogni we invest in like hopefully will be there with compelling tools they might want choose to use, right?

yes. Um I want to have rounded out with artificial intelligence .

so maybe the .

first person .

who actually .

framed this for me in a way that I found shocking and like alarming, uh, was my boss uh Peter till at founders fund. He he he said, um clipt was libertarian and A I is communities st. ARM. And as I was reading your book, it's like it's all kind of right there. I think you even use you talk about did you talk about .

the centralization of I think I would slightly reframe him and say the AI centralizing .

Crystals decentralizing like right .

that I mean, I think .

that is I mean, it's it's alarming to me it's it's like and I guess I had i'm going to be honest, I think um I was evident excited about bitcoin. Uh, little after you I like twenty thirteen is when I finally was convinced by my hard core and alcott alist friends that this was the future and I was stupid for having dragged my feet um and I became a enema red of IT or by IT um and I was showered during the characterises the casino chemistry, the where youtube were selling token. A lot of games at that point even while I understood that there were real things being built at that time and be real.

it's my way I grew you. I think that I don't blame .

for being sired on that your book did was IT reminded me in the context of this ai looming A I think you don't really you not mean to I I just kind of maybe come out of with I think it's a powerful, amazing tool. But IT concerns me how much power is putting in my hands of corporations that have already proved him they do not necessarily have my best interest are in mind. And and it's like as i'm reading this spoke and remembering what block chain is and what IT promises, starting to seem to me like really the only hope of, well, really just sort of like that, the only hope, the last hope. But it's like helping obe.

One like I am. So I like zuck said yesterday that they have three hundred and fifty thousand, eight one hundreds, eight one hundred hundreds advanced G, P, U. By video.

They have three hundred fifty thousand people were saying an estimated that cost ten billion, eight, ten billion dollars. Just literally just the G, P, S, doesn't county electricity cost. And now by the way, there they're making the open source to the credit, to the great credit.

I think they are not getting enough credit facebook with with law motor but but um but generally like it's just really really the data like who has all the da in the world like you need data like all of the the best A I models now they all have the common core and all the other kinds of the basically the entire internet although that will be now that's gonna litigated. Now it's like the new year times opening all student things. What can you use? But you know the how much dated is google have you know I don't know exactly what the terms are on on service, but like you know they have state at the clicks that all that up they can use.

I don't know about the gmail and things like this, but they have just mountains amounts of data. They are mountains amounts of compute um and you know the opening ice and amazing job and they seem to to put themselves in place of an in combine, but it's very likely that they are basic. I call IT five, maybe ten companies that that really have kind of control this and you know the nature of the technology, right? You go to h GPT is like you don't you know you you say, hey, what's what are tend fun things to do in new york city and you don't really need links anymore, so you don't need to link out to the web.

And so again, you're going to have this sort of silo effect or so. I think we I think I think a very likely outcome, I think is actually very sadly, the likely outcome right now is that five years from now, there will be the internet will essentially be five to ten, you know, applications. And there are these sort of five social networks where you're totally silent and you never leave and you never link out.

And it'll be a couple of these chat pots that just give me the answer. And yes, into your point, I look, and I don't think this is the left, right thing. I really feel like this is just anyone who thinks a thing like the idea that putting a product manager in polo alto to decide it's like it's like if we'd let A T and t decide who could make phone, it's just bizarre that we would let somebody happened to build some technical infrastructure, have the power to control global politics, global business and global culture.

Like IT doesn't make any sense in a democracy, right? You should either have to be done literally through democracy, through laws and things, or through democratic computing systems, like the way we do with the early internet, right? IT worked really well.

Better way. People like go you this fantasy utopia and blockin, we have existence groups. The web and email work really, really well.

And they are democratic systems, right? And is their bad stuff sent by email on the web? Yes, there's bad stuff, but overall, the system works. When you do something illegal, it's taken down, right? If you do something crazy, you know probably you won't IT promoted as much or something maybe IT exists like the systems were.

We have democratic computing systems that have worked incredibly well for three years, email and the worldwide web um and so you know and you've and the world hasn't ended. There hasn't been some horrible rise in criminal activity in terrorism. All of that shop was predicted, by the way. I mean, this was a huge debate in the nineties about whether you can have S S L.

S S L was considered this, like if you ask somebody in the nineties, and this was this happened where you had senate hearings, where they said, why would you need to encrypt the information unless you're a criminal and the answer, of course, was because someday people will buy stuff on the internet, which sounded fanciful in future yeah and try to be absolutely cking true, right? So like um anyway, so I just think it's a terrible, terrible idea. So you going to have I think you're going to have these five companies that you know whatever some some small set and they're going to have the AI boss, which is sort of the search use case, and then you're going to have the social networking use case.

And so I feel like like Better way. I feel like the air people. I'm thinking .

this through fully.

I'm about just let me say i'm ai open source A I but um so I not improve all this stuff, but I think we need but I do not think we need to think through these systems. Like if like take the psychological example, I think that you're getting your seed core and like if you go and kill off this community, okay, well, what i'm on a new program in language comes along and you want to train on that. Like you the communis not there.

Like the you're basically voicing my concerns. Me this is like at my last question is is hinting at this. I bring up the other thing like I I see that I think about this future makes me very nervous. I would love for you to please give me some hope let's .

if you I think big policy battle, it's not you know is not a thing certainty by any means that will work. But I do believe there are a lot of really smart people working on stuff. I think there is various kind of fly wheel in the fact, which is what you need an computing or sort of things get Better at an expansion al rate.

And so um the last section, the book we read IT is causes optimism. And I got to go through those those those things, but it's like one of these things determent. I do you think the policy thing is the most important thing is right now, it's just such a burden on the companies were involved with to have to spend probably half the funding MIT raise on legal stuff.

I think the other big thing will be open source. I if we can if if the best models in the world there are open source software um that will have an incredible democratizing effect. Look, remember there was all this talk in the nineties about digital divide and how people will have international access.

Five billion people have international access today more than they have running water. Why is that? Because of open sour soft, you can buy a phone that basically the Price of the physical materials today, so like ten dollars. And that's because all of the software on the phone and on the data center, it's all free. Open source is a miracle.

That is a miracle that like a crazy bunch of like hackers on the internet have built the greatest Operating system in the world, the greatest web server in the world, all of the entire stack, like, I think, is the most unappreciated miracle in history. computing. And it's what it's what lets start up exist.

Like why can you go? And just like, throw together some amazing thing, do what you do. How much opens for ourself? Assist, everywhere I permeate is the oxygen supports, the open internet, right? And so whether A I is controlled by five companies or its open source, unlike, I hope, the facebook eps doing into their credit, there's also much to startups doing IT.

Um I think that is the like that if that is open source and like, look, yeah sure they can have someone going to have their model that does tells you how to think but you you know someone else this real competition right someone else come along and and zoos and i'm like and I think that like I don't like the executive order had basically, if I think effectively looks like they want to ban open source ai. But I think that that woke up a lot of people and and I do think there is going to be a counter movement to that. And you know, I don't know, I think it's like the old saying of what is the amErica always gets wrong until eventually gets a writer.

I'm putera the phrase, but like I do, I I am optimistic that we will get to the right we did get the right place on the internet. I think we got the right policy. They adding the policies around the internet.

We're pretty good. Um and IT was generally kept open and photography was kept open. You can use photography today.

And so I think it's gonna a battle. And I would encourage your listeners to the extent agree with this. Do you be part of that? Because we need all the help we can.

But I do think like kind of exciting for open sour software, for open services through block chains for democratic internet is a critical issue and will be, I think, of defining the way I think that the thing is going on is look, I think you talk about this might in your in your blog post, look how harder is to build in the offline world um look how harder is to build a train to build a why is in a train california because of all because you now have thousand people who can be to anything right and and I really worry we have headed for that in the digital world now. And I think that sort of the mega tran, right, lot of lot of the digital world kind of grew what you know as as well. Look at those nerds doing their thing.

We don't need to worry about that right thing. Social media and elections of things changed that and now everything immediately is under the spotlight. And there's good every I think every I I like maybe in bias, but I I feel like clipped there. We're just to the tip of the spear. The first ones to experience IT, I think, is going to be just the narrative for the next for our lifetime is going to be just a constant .

battle over every email I worry about the internet protocol that foundational. I mean, like that itself seems more threatening today that I did thirty years ago.

Yeah unfetter unfeared conversations. So you can send anything you want. You know like it's I I think there's a lot yeah. So I I think that will be a defining issue is going forward is that we're going to have these debates over all of these a kind of internet issues. And I think it's going to be the primary divide between people that want to keep IT open and democratic and people that want to consolidate IT. Um and then you know well.

thank you for coming on is a really fantastic c book read right own um I highly recommended. I do think it's the first important a history book of the internet. I think that you guys have to check this out.

I don't think that we're able to do anything in the future. I think at this point, we can have to know the precious elements of the internet exists in order to defend them moving forward. As you just mention in this enviro that is increasingly hostile, that everything that has made the internet free, um IT was in an awesome book. Uh, thank you again. And um got to be IT to go by the book.

Thank thank， thank you. appreciate.