Defund NPR, How To Handle Bridge Protestors, & Humane AI’s Disaster Release
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Np s new CEO, a woman in Kathy marr brand, was calling her like an NPC left is talking about her like this mobility privilege, criticizing silicon valley and even people like you as sona what to do about .

these people who are blocking the bridges of very brief, publicly televised flogged. And I know that's going to sound crazy, but i'm going to break IT down. you.

You should have bridge down like four hours. You know, many people are car you, me.

This called the A I N by humane. This is the worst product I ve ever reviewed in my entire youtube history.

For one, it's a gay name. It's just the artist like gordy war old is a humane AI.

What's of guys? Welcome back to the pod. Um I this we're talking about M P R. We've got to talking about M P R. Of course we're talking about M P R. Um M P R is the intersection of I mean multiple tech personalities now, including obviously you mask jumping in there. Um you have sort of a IT looks like orange lunch running the company. You have people you have people quitting, people potentially being fired, people writing for competitive outlets to talk about how biased IT is, IT said A I am sort of I was dropped in the middle controversy and obviously like started swing um but I think we should ground you guys in the actual news of IT all first and there's no one Better for that then saga tell us what IT actually happened rather .

than what happened in my sort of fear imagination yeah I mean so N P R I guess the new cycle around M P R began last week um when a now former senior editor but who was then imploy at the company published the kind of tele um really whistle blower piece in the free press so basis is free press um where he basically made explicit what many people have suspected for years, which is that after or during the the twenty sixteen election and the tram presidency, npr was basically consumed by trump t arrangements syndrome that informed every aspect of editorial decisions that were made at the company and so um this senior dator said, you know we basically made the decision not to report on the hunter biden laptop story when I came out this was something that or I think M P R at the time that they weren't going to report on that because IT was like not CoOperated or something like that but they didn't even pursue IT um he talks about how they explicit made the decision not to you know give much credence to the covet labeling theory because they thought I was racist and you know they were sort of all in on the the fouche um you know natural origin there if IT and IT was really just this kind of explosive piece from a guy who said. You know i'm self identified liberal I drive a suba he sees the son of a lesbian .

or something like that drive .

to suit you yeah and yeah .

and .

and he was saying, you know like we lost merica's trust. And it's it's remarkable to look at the change in the demographics of epr listeners from like the eighties to now um when you know a few decades ago you had a much more politically diverse set of americans who is listening to this taxpayer funded media ganim ation. Um then you do now so this piece came out and IT Sparked this sort of firestorm of of criticism and pr. The editor was suspended uh, shortly after publication of this piece he since resigned um but in the meantime uh journalists and activists like Chris roofs start looking into N P R S new city a woman and Kathy marr who was named CEO in january but has assumed the position I guess last month and what they discovered is basically a kind of archetype of in Brendan was calling her like an NPC leftist I mean she's she's basically was that like an affluent White female liberal and SHE yeah he is awful um and SHE you know has SHE started her career in the nonprofit sector and SHE worked for uns f SHE um headed up the weak media foundation and he .

has worked in in webmd IT as well .

yes .

yeah I think so. Her C V is kind of a laundry list of um like I don't know per censorship sort of both type uh non profits I think she's on the board of the signal file condition um which you know has a lot of people or sort of A I dumas um anyway Chris roof o among other people started dig up prd tweet and fines like this gold mine basically where she's sort of variously calling trump a racist sociopath ath talking about her like this mobility privilege SHE at one point um I guess on a sume call sort of says like the first amendment is the number one chAllenge we face when we're fighting this information yeah not .

saving the first a moment, the existence of the first a moment?

Yes, the existence of the first moment. exactly. And that SHE thinks, you know, when he was a weak media foundation, SHE said, you know, we do think that we should be censoring and removing content we dem racist method ism transformed c acta so he is one of these types of people uh but where we come into the story is um did some digging and and got some tips and find that actually he also a long history of criticizing silicon valley and even people like you as sona SHE is very upset about the influence of White male westerners like you I give me .

A A lot but so .

basically I mean he has outline her position against silicon bali most coherently outside and this this twenty eighteen speech he gave in front of the ox for union, which is a kind of mix of like a coherent and actually interesting full official position.

I think where she's basically saying, you know, like this publicly traded companies uh, are able to collect personal information at scale and this raises all of these know questions about privacy and user experience. Sort of similar to um a book that came out a few years ago about like the rise of surveilLance capitalism. I mean, it's 这 interesting argument I think that she's making。 But then he goes on this tangent where she's like, and all these companies are run by White men who you know actively suppress basically the voices of women and minorities. And you can see that .

their products, not it's to be clear, we're run by indian men. Most of our companies are run by indian men.

The example SHE gives her like software, like voice recognition software that doesn't recognize um non native english speakers, uh you know A I that has trouble recognizing darker skin terms and SHE basically uses us to say, well, this A I is allowing us to this technologies is allowing us to encode racism at scale and this is one of the reasons why you know fundamentally we should um believe that tech empires are net negative for society and that's that sort of where her argument leads off. Um and I can run through the list of her tweet stuff but you know .

I wish that he would have just, I mean, so the thing I like about timid gau SHE doesn't screw around like SHE comes in and he says no same moment is trying to genocide all black people and I think if you're going to be crazy, just be crazy. Get in there and give us what we want. Uh, I want to take you from like the very top and just I want to start with the dude who that would like a whistle lower.

It's like not really, I guess maybe a waist of layer but the whole drama surrounding like why he like, oh, he was suspended and this is i'm clutching my perl. How could they do that? Like, don't they care about free speech? He works for them.

And that he went to a competitive media outlet and trash them. I would have fired. He would not be suspended.

He would be gone. You would all be gone. Everyone, you can forget IT. Um I don't understand why people are returning. That's a shock.

Um I I guess I understand why people are returning mp r being liberal as a shock because we all have to kind of pretend it's weird. It's like no matter what they do or how um obviously bias their spain is the story of them and of of neutrality. Neutrality of institutions is so strong in amErica that even in our criticism we claimed to the delusion of their neutrality.

Like how dare you not be neutral like we know they're not neutral. Um there's like not really there's not really a surprise there. Uh, I don't IT doesn't bother me as much when IT comes from like M S N B C.

I don't care whenever we track M M S B C or fox whatever is someone to stupid will go after them, but I never go after their bias. I don't mind the biased media outlet ah. What I mind is is um is an outlet to purpose not to be biased.

And what I really mind is being forced to pay for a media outlet. And that is, I think, really why this is even a controversy. Wouldn't matter if IT was just some like the new ark times or something, even like who can we have know where the new time stands and where they stand, by the way, is to the right of M P R.

They're definitely moderate right of where national pop radio. But why are we paying for them? I ve never understood this.

Um I don't understand how it's legal and in a beautiful ways like I don't know how it's not considered you know grossly unfair for truth seeking outlets like pie wires um and I also don't understand how is not in conflict with the first a moment in some way IT seems weird to force americans to associate with a very little left wing media outlet um and yeah I don't think um I don't think that this would be a controversy word not for that I do think that mp r needs to be defended um I think the error of of of us not talking about this is maybe finally close to over and and maybe my last thought is just um her tweet were not that controversial like even the one kind of referencing like kind of luting to founder fine as being part of the K K, K. I looked at that. I was like, i've seen crazy shit like that for years.

What's crazy is that it's no longer tolerable. Like she's talking about how bad the White men are and she's talking about systemic White primacy and he's saying taxi force for evil in the world because it's run by White men and all this kind of stuff. None of that when he was tweet IT four years ago in twenty twenty SHE was waiting IT.

Then as a professional, people knew and nobody cared because the culture was so different. And like once again, it's like another uh, example of just how far we have really changed. And there's a question of you know what will will come of IT if these people will be fired, if the institutions will correct themselves? Um I don't know. I hear really compelling arguments in both directions. They are Christoph ho actually just had a really interesting debate with cursor pin where they sort of passed some of this out a irvin believing the institutions are right to beyon saving and Christopher roof over the being an idea list in this way he he thinks he can change these things um but I do just think it's interesting like we are all really going in and just the world is so different I am SHE has not change just not like she's just now crazy this is just what amErica looked like four years ago, what you guys like.

Yeah I mean, I think that people isn't to in P R, so they can look down on others like it's like the most deaders. why? It's like my mom was a has like A P H touch. You the name like IT did.

Did I really to think we had in P R ribero? Like is just like it's something that exists like if you live in a college town or a big city and it's something that like cover middle by liberals. Listen to and yeah I mean, I I I don't even do people actually even think that it's neutral. I i've never gotten that. I think people think the P B S is kind of neural because if you actually like A P B S, new casual and I mean in the rest of is just White access to me street you know thirty six hour kinder ns documents about civil war whatever um but within P R it's like here's a lesbian uh reggio e band the best out of toronto who can like kids like I don't know, it's just like curling jena's happy show they .

say IT in that brother is like r we're looking .

at the lesbian reckon .

ban as .

he takes her super rude to the burning man camp discusses the ano endangered spotted frog and why this is actually the fault of the western man. Yeah, I love with Terry .

gross like interviews, like an annoying gay person or something .

like yeah .

yeah thing I rule not rule this that other guy, the Brown guy dilly H.

I know you're talking about you. Like, where is dresses to the events?

Yeah yeah yeah yeah you just like, so how did you get to theory? He was a always dressed just crazy on funning um but yeah I mean i'd like N P R is like kind of soothing why I still listen to IT sometimes because they they would have like these phone kind of like human interest stories whether you're like we found this corky old man who lives in in new hampshire team who closed glass he's like interesting for no reason um but I mean yeah like this the politics are like completely like liberal and buy I don't bet getting ready um I bit of people are thinking otherwise like wearing that have ever .

listened yeah yeah yeah I think that that's true today for sure but the entire justification and M. P, R was that I was going to serve some vital public interest. And I still, I would love and answer as to why because you know, this question gets kicked up.

This not the first mp r controversy. This is not even the first M P R controversy that i've been embroiled in myself. This is, you know, part of a tradition of M P R controversy in which M P R does some dumps IT.

And the whole country remembers that we're paying them millions of dollars year to do that dumb shit and they say, I am furious about me being forced to pay you for this. And then if we just move on until the next stupid M P R. Controversy um I don't know if that that feels like IT will happen again.

I don't going to the cam. I like SHE asn't responded on twitter. If they fire her IT sort of things like this seems ly like they are capitalinc the sort of right wing ideologues they're never going to respect and think. Maybe I shouldn't be talking about, you know, over half the country in the super alienating way if i'm supposed to represent the entire country or something like that, I think it's onna, move on and, uh, it'll be like this forever.

But uh, somebody on my timeline characterized her tweet history as in this house to tweet history just like very apt. I thought it's striking how much of an mpc SHE appears to be. And I think the question now is like actually i'm actually just kind of crippling from the sky.

And Daniel freedmen, he he had a little a very short tweet thread that I thought really put IT well and he kind of asks like he's like, I don't see a lot of liberals circling the wagons around Catherine and he says, probably because a lot of them doing the exact same thing as her between like between twenty sixteen and twenty twenty one. So it's like what um they're all still out there right with these tweet histories and they're all probably still in positions of power. And I think you know the question is like what are they going to do? Like you know, they got ta just have like put their put their heads down and and maybe like delete their old tweet yeah.

these people are working stuff that you can delete your tweets. I don't want all .

by twice from twenty twenty and .

I would be deleted my tweet yeah, if finalize this crazy should back not about that I was actually kind of the opposite that and one a little book while because in the gripes of natal addiction just to go but like, no, if you still have tweet up from twenty twenty delete about .

yeah I like .

to say some of us were on the right side of history. I was out there I looked up we recently as tech ma copa where these um huge uh investors and famous professionals were talking about the various cancelled people and how they should have done more and one such person was palmer. Lucky they're like, man, I should have really said something.

I was saying something. I went keyword, I like keyword, search my name. And I was like guide, like ten likes because nobody follow back then. But I was like, this is outrageous but IT was more I think I was like, I I tacked IT in different ways and and I also I went up to like, care wish I point with this like there were people. There is just like they were not being listened to.

We were the middle of massive rea that last year was like twenty seventeen to twenty twenty one probably is like actual massive rea and there is just no speaking reason to anybody and yeah like the catheter mayors of the world, he was one of a million. And when is there are gona be any kind of, I don't know, justice for what they did and the terror that they inflicted on people I don't think ever because honestly they're still in charge is just it's just believe toned things down like I think lt. Culture has has at least shamed away the crazy speech. But those people are still in all the positions of .

power yeah they don't want us. They're onna try to pretend that never happened um after they had, they went insane on everyone. They went absolutely psychotic c and they destroy a lot of people's lives people like cathern mayor, she's the prototype of a person that was doing this in twenty eighteen. And I think what we're going to see now is that they're going to try to brush holder under the rug, downplay what they had said and what they were doing and hope for the best. I think it's our job to make sure he doesn't go out well .

for them to hold them to account. Yes, we are the, we are the journalist. We are the media. Now I want to talk about what to do about these people who are blocking the bridges of america. I was in service to go just couple days, scope.

And I was on the day I was like the palestine protesters, like day of outrage or whatever was they have, look at me, and they closed bridges around the country and airport. And I think they were stuff abroad in europe two, and they are all just like very mad. A day later, sort of in a dollar short, they tried to fuck up google and got arrested, and now are all fire.

That's a separate story. I want to focus on the narrow question of crazy left ling activists, or let you say, crazy activists of any kind, any political stripe blocking abridge. Um I think that there are like there's a distinction, an important distinction to be made here.

You you have people who are just protesting in an annoying way about things that maybe you don't agree with and that can take place in the streets of new york city and you're like, ah, I hate them, should not let me on whatever then you have blocking a vital through way in a major city. In the case of the golden grid, you're connecting your in county to san Francisco. There are any number of things that are happening on that bridge.

From me, the ambuLances passing, someone can be needed to a hospital. The last that not this one. The last time for sure. I know there was an organ delivery happening and was fine.

Everything worked out, but like this is the important things happened on this bridge and that separate from the question of like false imprisonment and if you're stuck on a bridge and their people behind you and now you can get out and you're there for five hours, that just Better legal people have got to jail for this in the past. Now every time the bridge protests happen and they're happening in now in greater frequency because it's a mean, it's a successful mean, they actually get a lot of attention. We all talk about them because we're totally outraged.

Uh I would say if I went a steel man, the palestinian side here, they they think that people need to know about this thing and think that nobody knows about IT. And um so when someone says, hey, idiot ah you're just going to piece people off. You're not going to convert people to your cause.

They don't care about convert people to their cause. They just want the attention on the issue. That's the whole entire goal.

And then I would say what what's really happening as they want the attention on themselves, their identity as someone who who is doing good things, is very important in the idea of them getting arrested is part of that. The idea of them going to prison potentially is part of that. So now, whenever one's like, what do we do to stop this? We've got to start throwing people in jail.

These people were arrest. The first thing that says these people needs to be arrested a most people didn't even realize that they were all arrested. They were immediately or not immediately as quickly as they could possibly be arrested and removed.

They were arrested in removed. This always happens um now they're to be charged. This one was pretty serious so they probably be in charged uh, with false imprisonment.

People are already there's a link you can follow to. You are on the bridge to actually petition for this. We are looking at the situation and where in which these people going to go to prison. And many people are like, great, we want more prison. Um I don't think that's going to end the bridge protests in the first place and in the second I think that's pretty harsh.

I am a criminal justice advocate and I think that all of these people should be given an option between you know five to seven years in prisoner or whatever is for false in prisoner and attempted murder um and a very brief publicly televised flogging and I know that's going to sound crazy, but i'm going to break IT down for you. So what is blocking I mean fully like you're strapped to a poll and you're just like spent in front of people. Um and I think IT should happen like like one every third friday of the month.

There should be the P B S should broadcast um the national flocking and all of the people that month who did bridge protests and you know or something of this nature, we could have probably have a the handful of crimes in this category um who have accepted flogging rather than person uh will be flagged and the great thing about the separate from the fact that that keeps these people out of prison which is so barberry and I can't believe that people are still locating for that such things you know twenty twenty four um separate for freedom of that fate uh, you're confronting the me responsible for the protests directly so now instead of perpetuating the myth of these people as these horrific freedom fighters really, really is and i'm going to jail. Uh, it's shatter because they're not going to jail. They can be be free to walk around the next day if they can.

A following the flogging um that's replaced with the image of them like sort of crying and with their pants around their echoes, which is the and um in fine and I think people will start looking forward to bridge protest rather than dreading them so they can get to the flagging of these people who they hate which that desire alone ends the bridge protests once and for all. I solve the problem. I genuinely believe this, but I know it's controversial. I would like to hear your perspective.

The public logging is very air there. Are they into that? Too many. We did IT.

Americans did IT in this country. I looked into flogging. Americans have been doing so that the idea also, I think, with this ideas, like, oh my god, that we could never do, we did do that for thousands of years.

Start up until, like nineteen fifty, I think, was the last flogging. Like there were been flogging all of our founding fathers. They were down with flogging ones who wrote, uh, they didn't like rule, unusual punishment.

They did not consider flog a cruel or unusual punishment. Um it's not just erap, it's western, it's super. It's like every every country in the world has had some four of this. And I think we got to get back to shaming, to public shaming or I think at least I don't forget to get back to IT. I would like .

to talk about IT just to be clearing your idea to a you you're talking about not whipping them with with natural bullwhip, but pulling down their pants and like bear hand to bear us banking like I think .

probably I think like a wooden paddle dover .

to go yeah for free .

the street fair. Like why are we pretending this is shocking? They're doing IT out there in a public parade like we can do public flogging, I think, a little too much. No problem. I don't want them permanently, you know mam, that would be crazy, but I think pants around the ankles like modifying very painful and like they should be crying and mostly out of embarrassed, but mostly out of embarrassment not not pain you know um .

who is span alt as a child like prety.

that's illegal. Now i'm saying we ve got to bring some version of that back and look at.

is that lego.

I think it's illegal to hate your kids.

is IT not a group .

in text and as they like, legal, which are cute until disabled people, I hope that they're a unique like you, like you and they're what corporal .

punishment was still allowed in schools in alama. I think up until very recently um there was a lot .

of schools in texas when I was in school, I was banked in school.

But there is no way that ah I was I really think as yeah .

I was in the six cream because I gone to a fight with .

and that this was that the religious private .

school no is a public school that's .

shocking to me.

I know growing .

up in A I knew .

about schools, I know about schools that were un or the teachers were not .

katel c .

goals yeah, they would like hit the kids, hit their nuckles with a ruler or other sort of physical forms of punishment. But I had never heard that in a public school before.

I mean, i'm looking at a map right now. If you look up school corporal punic .

united yeah legal .

and publish taxis still yeah as as well as of december twenty twenty three, it's legal. Florida, it's legal a bunch day .

yeah .

yes so put up the .

map but it's .

it's yei member talking about this weekend .

beat children for talking in class. We can definitely flog a arranged bursa for blocking the golden gate bridge. I think it's perfectly reasonable, but you are about to say that you disait well.

no, no. I I mean, I don't actually know where I stand. I am that it's clear that whatever our current approaches to arresting these people is not working because I mean, for example, servants to go, the beverage protesters you are talking about, who were they were charged with like false imprisonment and refused to to comply with the peace officer. Tons of charges that could have at least theoretically, landed them in prison for a year, and recently was announced that they .

got out of trial. We are usually by the ones before .

this last one they remember. yeah. So this is it's an allegiance IT was the same thing that happened this time just the bay bridge instead of the golden gate bridge um they were rested, they were charged.

The district atterley sort of exceptionally decided to pursue the charges um and they basically got off with a slapped on the rest of me. They have to pay like fifty dollars of restitution and they do a few hours of community service and they're not even going to trial. Um so that I didn't realize .

I didn't realize there are already out. Everyone was so that when really the evoked theory in the city and I thought I especially because they were going to prosecute, I thought for sure this was going .

to be different. Yeah no, everyone did. I mean, IT was IT was shocking SHE was berk. Jenkins was like the only D A in the country who was doing this.

Um and at less in a blue um and they just basically walked away and also got a lot of a earned media from the whole thing, which is know they call themselves the bay bridge seven D A and they like got all these they have these rings in their honor. So I agree that arresting is is not working. My only concern.

Well, I guess one of my concerns of flocking is just I don't actually know if I agree that IT wouldn't make them like matters basically. I mean, like that IT wouldn't sort of benefit their public image in some way, right? Because you're saying it's going to be embarrassing for them and they're not going to be able to capitalism on IT. The way they capitalized on like their arrest photo isn't .

to use that out. What happened? People hate these people like we. I hate these people. Imagine you see, like, I don't know what's a good name for one of IT like like Sparkle butterfly as a boy and he's got like, I don't know, we're tattoo where weird peer singing and like a puppy blue hair thing and he was just screaming on the bridge and there was like a pregnant mom trying to get through and he wouldn't move because he was like, fuck you, you're participating in genocide then he gets arrested.

Then he gets, then we, the public are given a day and they're like, hey, like you're going to a get the chance to see Sparkle butterfly get flagged it's gonna be on friday i'd o'clock get your popcorn ready um I will fuck and be there right i'm going to be there. I'm going to watch IT I live with my friends, will have a drink, will be laughing about IT. But also Sparkle butterflies is going to end up on like a leader board of like the funniest reactions to getting flogs.

And now a big part of their story online is not that there are these people protesting. It's like, look at Sparkle butterfly cry while getting spanked by a cop and I think that that is memetics powerful and I think that I will change the way that we do these things. Um I think the the the policing element of IT um it's like if it's no is actually scared of the cops, it's all it's all feather.

Um so you have to find some like competitive story with that frame work that it's not like you you really want to disincentivize them with the banking, you you want to change, you want them to be afraid of the way that we remembered. And I think that I genuinely think there's something in that now I actually had read. So there was a book that I was recommended a while back called I should plug um in defensive ve flogging by Peter moscow never actually read IT IT was summer.

So that was like sort of popping around in my head. Just I, you could introduce such a bizarre concept, such apparently bizarre concept, and then sit with IT, like, wait a minute, what is the, what is the place that something like this used to fill in culture? Maybe what IT happens to culture wants the shame based solution to punishment is gone. anyway. I think I think that that fear would actually I do believe that I would stop people from doing IT um much more so than than even the threat of percent time, which anyway we are not even doing.

If you talk to these people, they actually think it's like a victims crime. And I want to be like, you shout that bridge stone for, like four hours. You know, only people shoot their car. You me like that all I can think about like, so what who's like? You know, like OK, I am on google.

Like, okay, five minutes to seven eleven I can make IT and then you pull up and people are like training about you more crimes and that you just shared your car and those people are not coming forward because it's embarrassing. But there the real victims here. And so if there is a flogging, I would like, we can put them in like hoods or something, and like to store their voices. But I think we need like the I A plastic and.

Yeah, I agree that's also and I agree, can see their identities but let them give testimony that's such a .

good idea like kids to watch me shit about. They also think the I like you don't have him.

It's a traumatic memory .

yeah the other thing that we could do is just actually pull the protesters. Yeah, I could.

Didn't four .

maybe maybe start there?

I I wonder I don't want I know it's easy to dog on safety ces go um but that I think that IT was pretty dangerous like you you had a fall so you had first while they they it's a bridge is different than in floria in miami or I think he was miami where I saw the footage was like a regular giant road there was places to hold them IT was a very different situation that you're a narrow bridge um or relatively narrowed space.

You have three theyve drove three cars up, locked them to a chain them together. Then in front of those cars they they chained themselves and they put their arms in these like weird barrier thing. So like they have really set IT up in such a way as you could not remove them without doing serious damage to them, which is a very like terroristic way of doing IT.

It's like, you know they're praying on our innate goodness, not a to harm them. They know this system is good enough not to actually deal with them the way like I mean any non democratic society would deal with them. Um I don't know I don't think I was so easy as just removing them because they also removed the much quicker last time um on the the beverage this is like within you know an hour it's done, my sense, and I D have to dig in to all the details. Es, my sense from what I heard from people on the actual bridge and from just the coverage of the way this was down and how long I took with that, I was actually very hard this time .

in their sound. Gy, I think you know about this. But aren't there's legal starker in place that prevents um cops from removing protesters in cep cisco and in york or drive that wrong just .

in new york I mean, in new york yeah you the settlement I mean, there was basically so a lot of this comes back to the floyd protests. But basically after in the aftermath of the floyd riots and looting in manhattan, the A L U sued um I think they sued N Y P D for like this treatment of the the writers um and they won a settlement with the police department which basically implement IT requires the police department follows this very convoluted like multitiered stem whenever they are responding to a protest where they basically have to get approval from these designated like protests like officers .

who offers .

yeah yeah observers whatever before they before they arrest people, they have to get permission before they move people off the road. So there's this kind of convoluted system um but that's in new york center ces ago. As far as I know, he doesn't have something like that, but I I think in in the golden bridge situation, IT was definitely logistically be chAllenging to get them off because they also throw their keys into the ocean or the bay. That's like they are tactic. They're not leaving their keys in the in the ignition to facilitate the the removal .

of the cars to truck. I mean a full truck every often.

right? But to get the toe truck onto the golden gate bridge when there's already cars, I mean it's do able obvious ly didn't few .

hours um the idea of them throwing the keys into the base, although just further drives home the fact that all this is narrative driven like they could easily just hide the key in the back of the car like tell people if like they will have to actually that they're doing IT because of the character of themselves that list inside their own head and the story they are trying to project to the world about who they are and what they're doing.

And so the only way that you're going to a fight, something that is just so entirely narrative based, is with a competing, powerful narrative, their heroes. The only way to change this is to make them look by clouds. And we don't do that enough.

I added um anyway, that we could go about flogging forever. I certainly could got a lot of push. I was he was like, again, I was, I was like, we should do prison.

We should do actually, what about all of the hours at every single person there lost times what they get paid in their salary. And these few people should be forced to pay. We're talking like millions of dollars for them for you know the rain less there. Maybe I need a lot of them, probably a family money, but if I do is like life ending money.

I think it's interesting that we think that those two things like why do we think that those two things are less severe than a brief five minutes spanking like public spanking and I think it's because culturally, and I know i've been joking on here to a small extent, I think I still think this should be an option. But I am i'm playing with IT. Uh, but I do you think it's interesting how like shocking the idea of public shame is to us now uh, we are really a quite shameless culture and um that is a very recent phenomenon that we become so shameless.

I used to be a very big part of what we were there was on our only thing but IT was a huge IT was one of the pillars of society was trying to avoid this kind of shaming, this public shaming and it's just completely gone down. In fact, you have the opposite river you will looted to um you know same for six ans, flocking each other for fun and fall some street fair. Um that's so like that's a that's like what is that but uh a celebration of shamelessness.

It's like the I mean is really the opposite of shame culture. I mean that's pride culture, right? It's like, no, no, no, not shamed. I'm proud. Um you know I don't know where that that came from, but I do feel that, that has uh a sort of larger impact probably on the way that we do things in the way that are society functions that we maybe even give IT um we maybe even believe, yes.

somebody told me one time that a the reason that they have full some is because gay guys invented IT so that the castro would have become side. No, my cobell thought in work.

yeah. And now we've got an army of queer women who are actually this dating I am washing venture on rules right now. Don't don't, don't make of me for this. Don't hate me for this. Don't judge me for this.

I just reality television is important and I lazy and sometimes I see my brain to turn off um and i'm encountering this drama in which one of the characters has uh or one of the people two of them are having a wedding and their pastor because he's a real Christian, has problem with gay people and of course, these people all live in west hollywood. In there it's like a huge scandal that the pastor of these people who lives in kentucky and their wedding is going to be in conducting y that pastor said things about key people. They all get mad. And the two people who leave the charge, one is um um bye xuan woman who recently has come out and come to terminate their bisexuality while in a relationship with the he's still with who is the other person leading the charge and he's doing so on behalf of his bisexual girlfriend who again is dating a man him um it's like these two it's a straight couple who are appalls personally offended not just like this is bad for these other they're talking about their own personal offense um here well you know who you got a public flogging this week was um or sort of defector .

like a virtual public login was humane ai bread IT tell us the drama sure um just for readers you don't know her sorry listeners who don't know what humane AI is um IT is a wearable A I device um that sort of part of this first heat of companies making attempts at taking AI from the laptop in the phone and getting IT to onto a device um that this humane is is called the AI pin by humane basically what IT is is a little a multimodal A I that you can talk to you and I will speak back to you so a psychologically and is also a visual.

So IT has a projector and IT projects onto your hand if you if you want to look at its results. And the way that you can control IT with the projector is you have these sort of intuitive hand movements that allow you to score through different options or or show different things that you want to see, such as like the time of day, the temperature outside or whatever IT is. There's been kind of a long hype cycle around humane.

It's spin like I covered IT in the White pill gift guide. Um you now we're talk in six six month or so ago, but I I recently hit the market and people are starting to finally get IT and and be able to use IT and the the feedback and the reviews have been like pretty much overwhelmingly negative um and and most recently this uh very, very big youtube tech uh reviewer called Marcus Brown lee. He put out a review that IT was titled something like this is the worst product I ve ever reviewed in my entire youtube history.

Um I watched the video and he actually he's very he's very fair um with his review uh the title is is you know kind of click bait but he does make he justifies the title with with how he criticize the device um and he ultimately lands on this point where he's like look like smart phones are not going away and this device is is not disrupting that format yet. Um so that's kind of a controversy um and yeah like it's sort of sad to see I I intuitive ly like what he may to win because there they're really casting right now for a different format. They've come up with something and I also I wanted to say reminds me um I don't maybe some of you you remember this are are older listeners or remember when we were transitioning from like walk men and disk men to the iphone, there was all these like like for ten years, what what we did was we went to this like funny format of like A M P three player.

Pretty much I remember I had A A SONY mini desk player um and basically like the market couldn't decide the best the best format for a device that played mp three. Ultimately, we landed on the ipod but shinin the iphone. But I feel like we're in that period right now with the A I device like we can't quite figure out how to get the A I off of our laptops.

Into something that feeds the AI to us actually, you know like all the time. Um but people like humane, companies like humane or like the early players like trying to figure this thing out. And that's why I like humane though after watch after watching Marcus review IT does seem like not a very well uh designed uh product.

I think that such a good point you just made about that period of time in hardening back to that and the excitement of that um IT was not just mp three IT IT was tech devices broadly. Remember you had video games that were hand held that you could buy the store for one game, like a throw away type game that they would be like your street fighter thing or would at home alone um I saw, uh uh short he was like an instagram real recently they were looking at these um like old phones you could get like a giant phone, like a like a hello Kitty phone and like you picked IT up and whatever there are all these weird you get to the hot topic. Like just technology came in strange shapes.

There are a million different kinds of phone you can get there compared to the the iphone at the same time you had the blackberry was still happening and there were other kinds of tex devices and things like this IT was um what we're really talking about is the word for apple period. And I think we ve forget how enormous apple has become and how much of all stuff IT is really swallow up, including our computers. Ever mean apple? The mac twenty years ago was like the cool IT was like you had this cash is like I think that cool kids did like you are you work at a coffee shop, you have a mac.

I bed like I was dead. I was like you were a hipster. Um now it's all we have and I agree that it's been nice to see this. It's like um when there's an extinction event and then all there's like all this evolution that happens and all these like weird fucking animal show up and like most of them go extinct. But it's like very cool for a minute.

Um if that is sort of where we are, I think I hope it's like the early days of that still but there are all sorts of interesting hard where things happening. It's still not yet that huge rush. Um and I can't even quite put my finger on why it's happening right now.

Does this kind of seem strange? Is not like there's this huge there are all A I bits. There are other things like they're like sole reader and and there there are a bunch of different kinds of hardware things being designed. I think it's almost like people got bored and they want to do IT. And maybe that's a good enough of a reason, I much sure.

Yeah, it's a question. Um the other sort of A I wearable contenders, I think, are that it's obviously like the apple vision pro and then there's matters raban, which are also very interesting looking markets reviews them as well. Um but maybe you include apple watch in that category too. Yeah he may really feels like like one of the first true A I wearable .

I at the watch. I don't want that shit on my rest. I don't want I like MIT the other oppression that i'm feeling or pressure that i'm feeling is just from the technology itself. But you know, the phone field, the phone in my pocket, already feels like more of a position than I want. I want less of an opposition on me from the technological world that I find the internet to be very exhAusting and I kind of uniquely live a lot of my there so probably ever one's different to some degree but um I was never a watch guy. I I want fewer notifications .

yeah I I agree. And I mean, I think there's a couple of problems here. Like for one humain, I A I, it's a gay name.

Like just the autos. It's thought like gordy were all it's a humane. It's my like. It's just the marketing is good and it's like a ugly broach or something I don't know. Like it's just like why that like why you why on your chase is there's just a lot of things about IT that like are like aesthetically unappealing and um not even in like the eye ronicky that like that the apple google asses were um and I don't know.

I just think a lot .

of the should fuck in goofy and that's why people like IT and that a body I need to reach IT on my head and like I have my phone in my hand. I don't need like IT just doesn't making me sense to be very like I I did. People are like, they're just like, like it's people are pitching things and they were like, all like that sounds cool in theory.

but then it's 这个 i am old enough to member the iphone。 Not making sense to people. People were like, I don't need all this, some iphone, what do I? I just needed to make a call or whatever like we were still looking in a world where we thought calls to keep up me, do you?

With the last, I don't have calls unless someone has a gun to my head like that was considered like the iphone was IT was like the killer APP on the iphone. Was the phone still, of course. So why don't like just much play phone? And I just IT wasn't there was a whole behavior that we didn't realize was going to become a much bigger part of our lives and that I I think that's the value prop for something like human a eyes. There is this other world of things that are going to be happening that we don't quite know about and which I think is fair. H, it's like a fair speculative thing in the world of the, I mean, I should conceivably change everything if it's if you even close to what proponents and people work now they are saying.

I think the other chAllenge that devices like these are trying to address is just the latency issue between the fact you have to type with your thumbs onto your iphone and you get an answer after that. It's much faster to speak and even faster to think. Your question and i'm referencing like neural link, for example. Um I think that I think that is one of the chAllenges of of our next generation of devices is just a decreasingly and see um such that you don't have to type things with with your dumbs um and so yeah .

I think where you can do like tech speech to text.

not show one.

Yeah and I I I tell i'd never used that, but it's bit i've had a phone that can let me do that for like for five years old like I think i've only ever done IT when I like drive or something. Just guess I don't want people know to know what on texts like going to want to mean the grocery sort like.

yeah people know speak text are like always older and bombers .

yes speak text .

in summer I guess um it's first the .

neural link thing I don't know. I don't want like my thoughts to go direct .

email the brain .

cock yeah I mean, like I don't know there's like there's a reason that like I don't know. Like do we really how would that even work? Like do you have to think sound?

I mean, I don't know yearly, we don't have to go there because the first thing is doing is helping people with paralysis play chess and should like I would like we just let them do that and then probably the use if there's A U case at all little md, I agree to listen. I am not trying to get microchips, okay? Like that's not a thing that i'm excited about right now but i'm also on the paradox gic um the god and so I feel like that like that an interesting thing there.

There are use cases in some of the stuff that just but I agree, I think the thing but neural like sometimes the technologies will do something that is, or create something with the story that is just sort of implicity a little bit, destroy a and that sort of, I mean, B, R is kind of that, right? We see IT reflected in the fiction. It's top. It's very distant. Like if the world is so good, the only possible Victory for V R is that it's just as realistic as the real world and if that's the case, then what is IT but an exit from the real world and the real world crumbles um which actually works as a perfect segway into our final piece here, which is a piece that I wrote called exit first built um couple of teams in here and uh I want to just get two guys as fast as cancel summarized and pretty quickly first all check IT out on firewire. Uh the premise of IT is what's is really a discussion of these two concepts are really of this one debate in largely in the tech industry that we've been having for years now.

He feels like the listening twenty twenty when we first all faced a the maybe just full extent to which are important and cherish have kind of rode to their core um what is the city but a series of institutions um same thing as a country and in the country of safe cisco let's say we we have this debate over whether we should um you know work there hard to fix IT, which was framed as voice, or to leave, which was framed as exit. And then there are a variety of different forms of exit. One is just going to a different state, want to sort of leaving behind the world of government completely into building companies.

One in the sort of piece instantiation would be a the concept of network states and building digital community. And like we're going to have we don't have an anything in common is not the problems of these cities or the institutions. The problem is like we are a different emerging class and we have more in common with people, tech workers in nigeria.

And we have with like a bara in sanford, cisco. And that was really called into question during the paul gram thing, which we talked about last week, paul gram, verstand ation of nigeria, over the question over the word dell. Those people were largely tech workers.

And that was the first time I started thinking, like, will wait a minute um I don't have more in common with people freaking out over the word del than I do with you a bara who I sort of disagree with an american i'm an american um and I started really thinking about, uh, things that we've read about here paradise for a very long time um just, you know, how do you build, how do you rebuild the city where you live? I think it's like change. basically.

I think you could still IT down to, I believe, change. Doesn't you need some giant, you know, world altering strategy like with the guy on the Whiteboard, the meme of him, sort of like put piece in the conspirators gether IT starts on a city block, and that's IT. Um the piece want to talk you guys about first go check out that old thing.

It's a whole big thing. We will debate uh, in the chat on friday when this is airing. Um I got the idea first for IT uh the premise that became the story, the sort of coronal at the museum of natural history, which has recently taken down the statue IT was theatre rose evelina.

So famously there was a mono infamous ously there was a statue of massive statue of teddy rose evelina at at the museum flaked by a black guy and like a native american dude. And this was framed very recently as racist. And that was, like others, racial hiera here IT was created by a guy.

He was like super against the trail of tears and um had that what that I was looking back at him talking about the way the native americans were treated and what not the sculptor clearly this ash, he was designed to evoke racial harmony and unity um all throughout the museum you see uh the signs of of this mentality to sort of like take down our heroes and say, no, no, no, we're bad wherewi ites the premises, whatever that thinking is baked in every exhibit but say every every exhibit that's Younger than a few hundred years old. Um it's other people about in general, why people about specifically, uh I google there D E I manifesto that that precipitated the entire change. The museum IT was a published in twenty eighteen.

And in if they use the word global, they say we are a global institution. And I got to realizing like that is actually the key to all of this is not about weird, anti human environmentally ism. It's not about D.

E. I is sanity about marxism. Like what are all of these things haven't common.

They haven't common. This idea that we're not american, like the global perspective is not a thing. You cannot have a global perspective because you're in america.

You cannot be a global institution that is located in new york city, run by americans, funded by americans, visited almost entirely by americans. You are hopelessly americans. There's no is skipping your american is all i'm really hearing when you say that you're global, private in american is that you hate yourself. And I think that that's the high level thing, maybe that existence society right now that we're all struggling with itself and that's where maybe I don't know what you guys think about, I don't think a very sort of heady kind of concept, but um I see IT everywhere. What do you guys to think about that?

I mean I agree I think that I I ve always thought that like the the way that amErica particularly exports its like racial taxonomy to other countries and tries to impose that um on countries that are have different history than we do and the different ethnic makeup has always it's always been weird and sort of has the biggest uptake among like the university educated sort of professional managerial class that probably shares the most similar ids globally. I mean, this is something that people have talked about for a while that there's this kind of rootlessness um who travels all the time and doesn't really feel a particular sense of belonging to place and there are the only people who can entertain this fantasy of like you know we could have a global community right because um you know we have sort of people who are I ideologically like minded um around the world for us uh but I mean I I would question when the people when people talk about this, I would be interested to know who they identify as their global analogue e and like where they were educated um you know what their beliefs are like. I think you're gona actually find that it's a very small group of people who probably went to like similar universities um and you know obviously in most of this stuff is happening in english um so a lot of these people probably if there when they grew up abroad, maybe went international schools or something like that um but yeah I do think it's a fantasy that in some ways is informed by not having like actually um read a lot of history are sort of interacted with a lot of people who are not part of these are not constantly you know traveling in this way. Um yes, I think it's .

interesting because the generally we are talking about sort of frame is weakness. It's like, oh, these people who these are these nasty elites who hate the common man and like taking they're Better and they have always weird like this straight language of the E I would not imposed on us um but when you framed IT the way you just did with about um you know i'd be curious who they are but they think their analogs are abroad and like what language they speak I also thought like what what religion, like what god do they worship and um like what is there, what history do they have, what who do, who who, what do they love, like what are they? What cultural things do they like a lot I started it's it's very .

tech like like the people .

who could do this are very potentially the taxi is as closest you can get to that in terms of shared values and why not. And even still, I think is a huge there's a huge divide, a massive there's an ocean between um american technologists and I think like you know, a product manager in logos or something, I think very, very, very different culturally the amount of a similar job um but in this way, like the network state concept is kind of the first it's kind of it's like a it's a IT feels a little bit wall like I hate to say IT but like it's like it's it's sort of seems like a walk fantasy um in in a sets. I know I want to I be tended, if there be open to push back, but that's kind of what that feels like.

Now what when you say that is a talking about, like all the tech people coming together and like creating global community.

So the idea that there are global values that are transcending of american file is super anty nationalist the network day fundamentally in fact, logy is said like um the internet is the new amErica and stuff like this and with that implies obviously not think of the same values is like your your sustainable world college professor are very, very different values but what they have in common is to believe that their community transcends board first and that they are global community, which is like, what was I was global was mark is not the first.

I like that yeah it's .

like that's not i'm not global. And global is a thing that I have mait really, really, really, really not. And much more so that are not woke, much more so that are not an a to human environmental is much more so that are not a marxist.

I am not global. I am american. And and I was made in amErica up. I am fighting for america. If amErica goes down and go down with because we're the fucking I M I going, it's like sounds really exhAusting to start over somewhere else. This is my country.

Um I feel that we are very different in other places and and distinct and I just think it's um not only do I think it's sort of immoral to run away that way and uh betray your country for some other sort of fantasy country, um I think it's a logical I don't think it's actually possible. I think the only people who pretend to not have these sorts of nationalistic values are americans who hate themselves. There's no one in the thing that we've saw last week with nigeria was like IT was not like the nigerians were being bad or something.

IT was nigerian saying, we're nigerian. We're proud being nigerian, and they're petitioning for nigerian culture. Broadly, there is no such thing as a global culture.

There are people fighting for their own culture. IT just seems strange to us, because in america, the default state is to hate yourself. Sorry, river.

Yeah, I agree. But I also just think that hanging out with people who have the same job as you are like like you are in the same social classes. You even if you wanted narrow that dam to just tag what you're just like a some set of like the professional managerial class or I guess like if you only need a Marks, are like the rosie, like your founders but like to .

me this just I don't know my I ported media.

My husband apart tender like my friends were like amazon drivers and like and they also people who like or like public is is like working, like media. Our writers stuff ends like it's actually interesting to have a diverse group of friends and to like being contact with people are outside of your like social class and social menu because others SE you become very narrow and you become delusion at all and you start thinking that you have more common. And with somebody in nigeria than like you know a guy who another american guy who was like pretty similar to you in a lot of ways, but just has like a lesser king job in a different .

industry that so yeah, we have voted even just like the difference between, I don't think, the difference between, let's say, a more moderate guy who votes biting and a more moderate guy who just tills trump. The the difference between those two guys is nothing compared to the difference between the average trump supporter and the average nigerian. Like what are we talking about here is just completely it's a total delusional world. Um and the more that we pretend that that's real and give IT any kind of legitimacy, I think the last we spend, i'm ourselves and sort of rebuilding our culture, rebuilding our cultural institutions and things like this.

I think this is a symptomatic of america's unique um denial. I think that some like that, we can have this conversation about how some cultures are actually Better than other cultures. And I think that's what like we're not willing to say like I don't want to live with a bunch of people from another culture because actually like their customs and their values like kinda suck and they would not be fun to limit those people right?

Um it's really easy to prove this you know you could say um to a woman who lives here in amErica who has a job in tempo, would you would you prefer to live here, let's say one of the google protesters, right? Would you prefer to live here or would you like to go, let's say, to syria, where you have to wear in a club and you have to, like, literally, when you're eating, you have to put your fork underneath in a cob just to get the food to your mouth underneath this thing. Which one do you prefer? You have to make decision right now. So I I think you know, like that's what pology even misses, right? Like if he, if, uh, I don't do this pology, you want to have a physical .

location for this netware. The ideas that I would lead you start with the online law and. Online online community, online law and then you find these um either this sort of, uh what have they called the state within a state um .

microsoft territories or something charter cities.

You can do some form of a charter city or a whole as new country on an island or something some version of that in that world, which we've been talked this like a theme that existed since the world of this anywhere I came up. Um some version of the ad will take place, but only after the online community. He sort of a very it's a very interesting idea. He's he's wedding a lot of different ideas over the last fifteen years in sort of like the intellectual tax spaces together to to conclude the network state, I don't know, avoid global, build local, expand rail c next week.