Terrorism and Moral Inversion | PIRATE WIRES EP#18 🏴‍☠️
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Welcome back to the pot. We have the one in only lowest Smith with us today. Finally, super sock to have you. thanks. We're coming.

Hey.

thanks me on we also got some kind, of course, and brand in this week. I originally so I I reached out to know about the podcast right after I think you had just said something about twitter you had mentioned and cracked me if i'm wrong here from getting a quiet IT was like you've had found yourself going back to like the near times I comer IT was you'd you'd find yourself with a new link situation on twitter in which links are stripped of their title and they're hard to kind of understand. You've got yourself going back to make regular mainstream out right right?

So um taking headlines out of um out of um the title card, out of tweet basically has made a very difficult tell you know what article is about what you because you can know make people can describe the contents of the article in the tweet but you don't know that that's what they're developing. So if someone says he could be their own commentary and you don't know that necessary what the articles about. So I don't click on the external links and in fact, i've heard that said the E I made the change so that he could discourages from click on external links because the idea is that eventually X, X, twitter will replace the news instead of simply integrating with the media ecosystem. I think that was his idea.

Yes, I think that's definitely his idea. Brands going to go off on that in a minute as well. I have had the a similar I think experience leading up to the weekend. I my sense was like obviously it's a war with links. Um I don't think it's helpful.

I certainly I had found myself going back to the new work times more often because of IT and IT seemed like twitter had lost some of its a lot of its edge as a like go to place for the news. IT was no longer the only place I had to go to. A lot of people for a long time have been lying about the fact only get their news on twitter um and that is they've been lying and .

they actually we're getting in somewhere else no to know.

I think they were actually getting at all on twitter, which seems kind of I and I didn't yet I made that but that now i'm realizing I think that was really the truth because, uh, I am noticing now you know i'm i'm going in new york's that com which I haven't done for a long, long time uh other than the backside myself on something or whatever um but I will say that my opinion changed somewhat uh, this weekend so I was really seeing what of a decline in twitter generally as a place where I would go and have to go for the news.

But now in the middle serious event on yet, you have the israel uh palestine situation um IT I don't think I would have known what was going on without twitter. Uh, I don't know. Is that like maybe where are you on that have even changed your perspective .

at all or well, no, actually I think that what I found on twitter was almost entirely was almost entirely gist commentary. So I could go on twitter to find out all the sort of horrible things that dsa people were saying in response to the, you know, homos tacks supporting homos tacks. And I could go there just to see see though, you know, the comment.

Worse, twitter continues to be the comments section of the of the world where people just fight flame. But I didn't if if I wanted to learn the actual events, I didn't go to witter. In fact, I IT was not very good at that.

So I started going to, I went to the washington post. I also subscribe in york times. I do something got to washington st. And and so I start going there. And also some other outlets I would check, but mainly washing post for updates, no sort of live updates about what's going on in the, you know the actual fact of what's happening. And in terms of the commentary, in terms of what people are shouting about IT, there you can go to to that's what that's while to me.

I don't know. I had told a different experience near times from page. It's a blasted out building in god this saturday morning, blasted out building in goa.

You have a death toll, homos and israel war. There was some kind of a Terry attack. But like twitter, the first thing I saw was the body of a german girl on a truck. And IT was too terrorist sort of laughing a kid bits honour um that drags me into the actual carnage feed which was distributing and toxic.

And like that's a whole other kind of conversation of, I mean, do I do I want that in my head? Do I need that in my head? Is an important or something, but but really like the scale of the attack itself. And I did check the washington post, I check, I check fox CNN like nothing gave me a more accurate sense of, like, the sheer scale of carnage than twitter. And I actually think that that conversation is what pulled in new york times to a more twitter like reporting by tuesday evening, like several days later.

maybe. So you know, I think we have a lot of we we think about the new work times a lot as a specific entity. I would say that the news outlets that I saw got seem to get the facts pretty stray IT as soon as they came out.

In fact, that the twitter people were pulling effect from the news with a lag. So I still saw off example, the number of israeli is were dead attack. I saw um everyone to think two sixty, two sixty is really is dead.

I saw the number ah got to six hundred and nine hundred on new sites before I saw on twitter and people on twitter were still just repeating to sixty and and there is is not a large leg and it's not a know I mean, it's not that big deal, I guess in the in the overall sense but I felt like fact we are coming from the news sites and then commentary was going from twitter. Uh, now of course, you know videos and images are exception that right because you don't um you know so so I I got some of these videos from you know british tabloid. There's something like that searching on google news uh you know twitter actually when I searched on twitter to see the photos of oral stuff, which I believe we should always make ourselves look at the photos of the horrible stuff.

So it's not just abstract to us and we don't just you know have the sort of this um you know detached blood thirst of saying I support this many people on paper dying for this abstract reason. You just see what's like, you know you see this is what he looks like when a child blood is smear all across a bid or or you see burn corpses of babies and and you have to make yourself look at that at least once. So when I was looking for that, I didn't actually find on twitter until I had already found IT somewhere else and posted about IT. And then people posted in the replies and nasty photos. When I did a twitter search, IT didn't cop, and I didn't cop in my feet either.

This is crazy. Me, what was your the two of your experience? My experience is genuinely like one hundred and eight percent in the opposite direction.

I, I actually trying to avoid that. I was clicking the trends. I clicked, uh, I clack israel like to MaaS. I clicked just, I went to the trends. And every trend I clicked was like one of the feed of arnage.

Yeah, no, I didn't go to the trends. I never go to trends. You know, maybe, maybe I been using twitter wrong all these years.

Just I twitter, if just keyword search didn't find IT .

not good on twitter but I A long time on the link thing that's .

a religion .

what is your perspective on that bring um yeah like .

I I have this theory and and I I think I came to IT you basically actually know you you set IT out loud um whether whether or not the alan knows IT yet his logic of optimizing the four you feed for unrequited user minutes means that he needs to subject ate every platform that host content whether that platform is sub stack, which obviously he's gone to war with uh youtube or the new york times um and like there's there's evidence that has been doing this in a few ways and and there are the only ways to do this, which is too like number one, like how do you get people to stay on the feet? It's uh first off just advise them from leaving the feet at all, which again we ve seen that really like he's struggling.

Sub stack links a month ago, york times said that you know for a weekend um their links had reached far fewer people than they were used to so in various ways he's he's already throwing links like you said, no, he's taken headlines off of links. So now links, links, posts are in coherent and then the sort of positive way to get people to stay on the feet longer to increase the number of integrated user minutes, is to simply make the content that's on the feed Better and higher quality. And like, how do do you do that? Well, you have to get more and higher quality content creators and more expensive content creators onto x dot com as their primary way to dish, distribute their own content. And the way to do that is to make ext com the best place to monitise your content online, which again puts you in direct competition, in my opinion, with somebody likes sub stack. And even the new york times.

yeah, weird that he sees the new york times as as the lot of weird but that's the major change is that he more and times competition no Marks okba with the new york times that is competition.

I don't even know if is that. I don't I think just where the logic ends up, right? Like you your in competition in the new york.

So now I mean I mean like before before they take over, new york times probably saw its twitter followers as like the top of the fund for subscriptions. You can monitor ze experts ent of the twitter followers per month, and you can rely on that a source of revenue. Now that's indirect opposition to the primary KPI of the four u feed at the threat.

So like what's elon going to do? Like he has to subjective these companies in one way another, whether that's like I don't doing things to put them out of business or acquiring them. I think that's where this thing ends up. Zoom ing up.

I don't think you're going to have a media content monopoly in the united states or the world.

I mean.

like in twenty .

fifteen, around twenty fifteen, this has happened a few times. Like with facebook, for example, around two and fifteen um their news feed was like ascendant. They were distributing tons and tents of traffic. To uh to lots of newcomer's to the media ecosystem. And one of the things that they did was released this product called uh instead articles.

I don't know if you guys remember that or not um but instant articles where he was essentially an offer to publishers, what I was was like will pay will give you a raf share of the advertising associated with the with your with your instant article. If you post your article on facebook directly and they kind of try to take over, I don't know if they try to take over news, but like that was a way to get to keep people on the news on their news feeds longer um like you said, no, I like that didn't work. This has happened before and like new or times survived, youtube survived. Sub stack was born, right? Like we still have a like good no dynamic ecosystem media um but I get I think I think I think where .

the facebook inst some articles thing never really do golf.

I I never saw single one that was that was not a good.

The dominance that you are referring to was entirely external inks.

That's right.

yeah. And so twitter twitter's dominance of media, facebook got out of that game mostly and twitters, a dominance of media was always the external links. That was the interface being a platform for content creators um through external links rather than the place where the content was created itself.

Except you obviously just comment IT was the comment section of the internet. Um you I think you could basically think of IT is as publications outsource in their comments section to one giant communal comment section. Um but I never yeah so we we've never seen a platform like that try to just basically be the one newspaper, the one uber newspaper.

They are also trying to stay on the right side of two thirty. So the more you become like an actual newspaper, the more in danger you are becoming capable for everything that is written on your platform. And I keep wondering, i'll get what point does that actually come more and to play for ella, I think he's becoming more and more a straight up publisher.

I should criticize twitter a lot for being the defect publisher. I would think about their friends, actually, they would have fall on those, never those stories. They would do like these kind of like aggregated stories. And that to me and my first security that's publication. You've have definitely a team writing this stuff that I don't know how two thirds didn't come into play at this point.

Um this my friend of V J pandora on who invent t to that.

So that stuff used to be the thing that really dropping the the crazy is about twitter is to hate that shit. Nice to feel like this is you coming in with your editorial opinion and like, that's fine, but then you're publisher and so you you have to be coping for the ship. I I think it's it's a it's a huge risk for them. They have a lot to gain from maintaining their staff under two thirty. Um and I think it's a mistake.

It's also though just i'm completely bias because it's so much worse for me personally like the golden age of me being able to post links on encumbers to my and it's crazy that I have to be like it's weird that that I am like I I wish I could post mile I mean, we all want to live in a world where we can share the links to our work. And um that was Better for me and I was Better for power wire. Think he was Better a for me as a reader, a consumer.

IT was Better for me as a creator. So when we talk about crature, you know, he wants the best creators on this platform, wants them they will monotoned this new product. Is not that for me I don't want.

It's i'm never gonna able to make as much on twitter subscriptions as I am uh on sub stack for pie wires um or even just my own you know email, news letter service whatever. So I don't like IT um I do think it's good for the world like I think that that IT felt to me extremely different than when I saw anywhere else. And I do think the over ten window has brought in quite a bit.

I wondering I don't understand what the europeans are talking about and what they want right now. I don't know why they were mad about what they saw on twitter. I I wish they would say IT I wish that we could see what the e regulators are are paste about um you have any sense now?

Yeah I they put that exposed to the legal content like I I think I was like you posted illegal content, like content that the illegal in the E. U. wasn't. What weren't those the words?

I don't know they should say IT. I would like to know what specifically they did not want there? Yeah, don't know.

But on that, like, I mean, we should talk about you know but this weekend a little bit um I try not to and i'm not going to hear maybe like little disclaim er I am not going to solve middle ast gern politics um and that's not my that's not my interest. That is not my goal here. I tend to follow this stuff, as in america, and I tend to be interested in the react look.

So for this week of erp is called moral inversion for firewire. And the anchor of IT was the reaction that I saw to the sort of, I mean, the worst i've i've ever in my life. I would say like genuinely, i'd never seen anything as bad as I saw and is really maybe that is because I haven't had access to IT.

I don't know what other fucked up things have happened that I just missed because they weren't allowed or they were treated away I don't know but this was really unfair able to me um and I was very IT was hard and I saw you know I talking a lot about this um so I think that were kind of probably roughly on the same pager IT was really hard to wash. The reaction to this stuff a IT kind of seems to have bubbled up mostly from college campuses. And you see a lot of professor sing the professor is going viral now from yell for uh, her sort of they weren't civilians tweet.

That was one. I saw handful of professors saying that this was legitimate. One was a hawaii's studies, a major who was like a hawaii studies professor or he was like, going, this is what need to be doing here.

why? And I was like, a god like, this is crazy. Um so know before we're going to like noise take on this and there was a lot was the lay of the land of the college .

campuses right now yeah I mean so I guess broad brush strokes ah what you've had happened over the past few days is a lot of university student groups have issued statements about the events that happened in israel and massa's attack um that have been unleashed reactions and subsequent apologies in some cases from the students and then double down, doubling down in other cases um so for example, uh a very well known incident at this point happened a when and why you law and why you lost student bar association their president issued a statement um where they said because I believe this person identifies as non binary hi all this week I won't express first and for most my unwavering and absolute solidarity of palestinians in their resistance against depression, toward liberation, self determination.

Israel, bear's for responsibility for this tremendous loss of life and then this person goes on to say, you know, I condemn the violence, apartheid I condemn the baLance of set of the colony ism and then they end their statement by saying, palestinians be free. And so the day after, or few days after the statement comes out, and following massive backlash on twitter, the White shoe law firm that this person had a job offer at a winston and straw, just a firm that you know has notably defended uh general motors and you know there they're involved in lots of corporate litigation. So there's a bit of irony of this person presenting themselves as you know a freedom fighter or something but they withdrew um their job offer.

And this is you know one of many cases that have occurred so there was a statement that was issued by um the harvard a palestine solidarity groups um which IT begins with the sentence we the undersigned student organizations hold the israeli regime entirely responsible for all enfolding violence and this was signed by a ton of uh student associations including um the harvard islamic society, harvard south asian law student association, the up and the police students association signed IT um and then Larry summer, former president of harvard um got on twitter and and sort of twitted you know he was he was disappointed to see the statement was published um bill ackman tweed um that he'd been asked by a bunch of C E S whether harvard would release A A sort of list of students who had signed this kind of a statement and max mayer I believe in and other people actually ended up putting together um they published what they called a terrorism where they basically listed students who head um signed on to these statements um which all you know use the same boiler plate kind of phrases like israel bear's ful responsibility for the attack um glory term matters from river to sea to quote the berkeley statement and um you know it's interesting because um initially I know in the case of of stanford momma um they released this very banal statement the day after the attacks um where they said something like you know we know there's lots of troubling things going on the world and here's here's where you can get counselling um and this was admit no stanford students hanging um like sheet all over her campus um with things written in you red inks saying this really occupation is nothing but illusion. Of dust the land remembers her people um the illusion of israel is burning and so there is this like growing pressure for university administration to issue a statement condemning, uh, how is attacks which they eventually did?

When have I hack to so the all like the students are responding to the stuff the same time that we on saturday like this is mostly when we are all kind of the super online people are processing this talking about IT, I am horrified at what seems to me at that point like um you have the south that I saw the the celebration is directly following this the same day that to me is like that's like a rape parade basically um and i'm Harrison ed by that i'm thinking, man I am like not in i'm not aligned with with culture this is hard to deal with.

Three days later, dos feel like that now four days later, right wednesday, IT seems like there's been a broad institutional backlash and now we're dealing with is the cancellation of the councillors. Uh, no, what is your kind of rough take on, I guess, this to start with? like.

How do you feel about, you know, the this harper thing in particular? You have these groups now. You have a list of names of people who have who have signed on to the protection r thing. I don't know what .

do you think .

about what? It's a list of names, it's a political list. What is this? Is this sady feel about IT? Well, so what happens is that .

that people join these groups and you're in this association, right, sometimes to go to the meetings and I get some pizza, right? Maybe shiny, try to hook up with someone where on.

And so then when the the leadership of those groups of the people who are really invested and who really care, who make IT their sort of everyday thing, and everyone in this group sort of knows that the postini ans oppressed, and there's really is the ones oppressing them, and that's how morality works, and that sort of the moral fermat, right? But they don't think about IT a lot on day to day basis. And then the event happens, right?

Most parag lies across the border and slaughters like a thousand people or something IT burns babies and to head them and very super and all that, you know, stuff. And then the org that the leadership, you know, the three or four people for whom this is their life, and there, you know, probably not very well just to people and they're pretty blood. Third extremist, you know college kids, they put out the statement, they just put IT out there as this is the statement of our work.

And your average member of that or doesn't hear about IT and if give, you know didn't sign their name to IT, simply was a member of the work, right? And and if they had gotten a chance to see IT, uh, might have might have signed off, might have not, we don't know, but the chance is the fact is that the members of these organizations had nothing to do with IT. They just like somehow have shot for Peter.

I will just quick clarify, say that what I saw, maxi list IT, looks like leadership. And you have had some examples of leaders in some of these groups saying, I didn't even see this and I was publish without me and I retracted or whatever, but they were I don't see the full list of thirty forty people agree bivens y that that maybe exist but IT maybe IT will exist. So the broader er question .

is important but less marine asked for IT.

So what he asked for us of every single person in the group IT makes me uncomfortable. I think that there's also something obviously throwing themselves back into the council culture conversation. And it's like where you were against cancer culture. Now here you are trying to cancel someone and I want to like dialog back, rewind a little bit to the punch and nazi stuff. So I was not unlike, I don't think you should just go up to someone and punching them if you think that they're not see a big part of that was everyone who was of republican was being accused of being a nazi um and that was what was feeling in the punch of nazi conversation like Donald trump was a nutsy trump supporters were not sees um I don't think that nothing should simply be punched.

I think nazi should be allowed to go and say what they want to say in amErica but I also don't want to be working with a nazi actually like I i've never wanted to be like sitting next to a nazi who's publicly espousing nazi opinions like it's weird to be sitting next and what's exterminate the jews as i'm not a jewish, but I imagine for a jewish son that would be very difficult. And I think it's perfectly reasonable to not want to work with someone who is publicly and not see. And so when he comes to this goa shit, you know, you're suddenly with co homos person. I don't see a difference there. And I think it's perfectly reasonable to not want to work with a supporter of terrorism.

Well, no, I mean, why guy? I agree you, I think people have many, many people have repugnant person opinions. IT would be IT would be difficult to find a workplace without a couple people who will have a hidden republic. My personal beings that they keep to themselves and they do have professionalism, is that you keep IT to yourself. And someone who signs a public statement that makes tweet declaring that they have this horrible view of, like, I support these rapists and murders and baby killers um god, baby killers is no longer exaggerated terms .

IT IT depends on who you ask. You asked .

the on .

the details .

may be baby behests my .

big I had I don't sorry some of the babies were .

only burned and not be had they have were burned with their heads on shelf anyway. Um and I like a curse on this .

podcast ah course all .

the it's pirate wires here I want to curse right anyway a will have Better IT. But anyway my coin is that if you put your stuff out there and you're local bad person, a have local like horble opinions, that's one thing. If you're just someone who sits there and just sort of silently you know like copes that our team goes and kills all their team and some foreign war, but then you don't talk about IT professionalism requires that we not go rooting around in people's lives to discover people's hidden bad opinions and that if they keep IT to themselves then um then it's fine but he said about .

IT it's really being framed as like where the truth is the palestinian his real thing is complicated otherwise I would have ve been solved by it's like a abortion. I like people have very strong opinions that been fighting about IT for fucking thousands of years well I guess last eighty years for sure. Um it's like it's very not something that i'm trying to come in here and be like know the palestinian position is beyond like like you.

It's so immoral that you must be kicked out of you work forever or something. It's specifically like that high yall with pumpkin fall stationary on a newsletter saying, like, I support this violence. I support this specific thing that we all like inside of online watching the carnage that is, has i've never before seen and then you have someone still like cheerfully say something that is so beyond what I want to be working next to.

It's like, I think for a lot of people across the country, there was this moment where you were like, I didn't realize you were actually evil like I thought that we disagreed on some stuff. I did not realize that you were going to be celebrating rape like that is just crazy. And for the whole left, this is a really big problem.

I thought job, I very smartly, came out very soon. I think he probably saw some reports pretty fast that we're like, you, there are american hostages. You, I want to be anywhere near this crazy left to shit.

Celebrating this like this is going to be a huge problem. And he was sort of against out of the gate. He was very strong in support of israel.

And in espousing like this is really a tragic thing that I saw, what not, but the other leftist organizations did not get that memo. The student groups certainly did not. Um the bonding groups berny berny I didn't see bernie. I know most of the berny center day.

And you know why? Because these guys are old and they remember the last time this kind of stuff happen. They remember the people who would you know um chain in this like left us people who chain in the street from now or the commercial photog, whatever. And then they remember red that we don't have any personal memory of that we can read in some article that that happened at one point, but that doesn't mean it's real. Ed us.

They remember the last time that you had A A sort of a situation of geopolitical chaos, increasing atrocities where a bunch of america, where amErica was sort of divided, and a bunch of americans just on, ironically, unapologetically supported some of that horrible stuff um primarily because they were cottle's stern middle class kids who just you know like to watch some conflict on T V and you know but but also just because western leftism and western riding m as well you know extreme ideologies and people have this idea. Bernie and biden remembred those things. And so they knew they could sense which way the moral wind would blow. They could escape to where the puck was gonna because they knew where the puck was gonna. And a lot of the rest of us haven't lived through IT.

That is interest, I think is probably right. I think that it's if you go back though to those moments, I want to give the college campus students who were supporting like now a little bit of A A support here because they didn't have the violence in a life fee that you learn that history that's like you learn like the stories come out slowly over time and you have to be adjust.

There was not this like constant life feed from the moment starts of the actual carnage um maybe i'm being too nice to the marxists of the sixties and they would have celebrated the carnage. Ge, have they seen the life feed? Um but there is really something going to nice .

yeah i've probably .

I I I don't hate marx's. I feel like I hate them more than you do so I should be less nice. Um what about, uh, what what do you make of the impact of this on the left right now?

Um I think that I ve always made a distinction between progressives and left us to me and that was not a distinction simply along a spectrum was like the left us. So are the more extreme people on this line. There seem to me I I sort of a clustering algorithm in my head where these people you know cared about like know prison and police and welfare and things like that.

Those were the progressives and these other people had a collection of issue is like, um you know they did care about some domestic they wanted student debt cancellation and what not but then they they care a lot about a lot of foreign stuff. Passing is obviously the number one issue by far uh that they were also you know pretty supportive of of anything they will end by american basically. And my cluster algorithm para those in the two clusters, because those are the two two distinct use of people I knew in college.

But then but you can definitely see the the chopper trap house guys, and like the, the the B, L, M people, the prison abolition ous people were very different groups of people. That doesn't mean either one is less extreme than the other. It's not on a spectrum.

You can see prison abolitionists and police abolition is get insanely. And you can see the chapo. You can see socialist leaning people who are are more moderate you know um sometimes um but then but this this hope the cluster of the the socialist, the people who sort of identified with this global left, tim, who cheered for hugo chavez.

We're not simply you know prison reform people, but more extreme they were they cared about a different clustered issues. They cared about foreign policy a lot more. And that ideological cluster that I call the leftists that I was like, no, these are not progressive.

They may call themselves progresses for like hot minute opportunity isn't ally, but then they will call themselves socialists tomorrow. And mark is the next day in whatever they call themselves, whatever they're just A A faction of people who just thinks all day about power are ultimately, ultimately we call them tank ys. And I think what we're now starting to realize that there's a lot more tankee in amErica than we realized.

It's not just the people who say, you know, who have the hamer and sickle in their bio and say, literally, styling did nothing wrong. Baba ba people talk about the deficits, that tiny thing. We're now realizing that tankee, that the chop out trap house people are actually just tankee, and that a lot of the dsa people are actually just tankee.

And take is this insult that british um socialists actually made up to insult british communist for supporting stolen invading hungary. Ajo silva with tanks are check of the lock is not done, but the soviet union invading your eastern eupeptic tries with tanks when they try to do sort of moderate socialism stuff the soviet attack them attacks and so and so that's why tankee is that what that word comes from? I think we're now starting to realize that um you know the the existent ous comic twitter account uh um branda uh joy gray um or a lot of these people, these are all tank ys and so ah and their bad that seems like .

at this point these are people who. Would have been extreme in a different time now. Yes, they arent extreme.

And yet they occupy different levers, are different, institutionally important spaces like that. They're kind of, they are kind of mixed in. You have these people everywhere.

They have been allowed into polite society and they dominated there to a certain extent. IT looked a little bit when I saw all of the, uh, institutional messages coming out. Mostly yesterday was when all of the like the revision was happening.

If they're like go away a minute, like we're retracting things and we're they were like rewriting things very fact that feel like a civil war to me on the institutional left I would say, um who do you think wins that? I mean, when I right and then is, is there a Victory there? Perhaps I don't see the tank's certain ly the tank is like to fight. I don't see them just losing.

I see them losing relevance. They were there in the one thousand nine hundred eighties um those people were around uh and um if you watch the movie slacker, which is a sort of the petition of what Austin culture was like, the one hundred eight, you see this guy sitting there cheerfully passing out pallets.

People saying terrorism is the searching and strike evvy the opportunity was a tank that was those days, you know and they were joke and you see another guy who's in a cop house early in the movie sitting there talking about how you know um he he's just so extremely obsessed with politics and speaking in a way very similar to how we see D S. A. People talk about potens on twitter and you recognized that these types have been around. What happens is that they received that this this would be revolutionary left the sort of nasty turkeys for whom really just bringing down the united states is like the number one north star, right? Um these guys receded and they become a joke. And you saw audi's receded and become a joke and then they came back and was like, wow, you know, shouts think there's people in the street chanting judes will not replace us in the street and the president sort of kind of saying some equipment or maybe even nice things about them that was like, that was amazing and and you could see trumps approval numbers which have been high in that popular more in from sixteen you can see after Charles still they text and never never recovered um he IT .

seems so much IT seems so different. Do IT seems so different that that you are we're talking about actual institutional support for these things right now versus some kids doing some really fucked up crazy shit in the president. I mean, what he really saying, White nationalists are kind of good. I don't think so. I think he made a massive fumble there and was trying to IT talk about a broader thing, and he was totally wrong, but he was not the same as people actually saying burb time from, you know, it's like the n why you whatever, like having your name on IT proud of IT. Uh, this is justified violence and it's across the country. Those people don't just all venit you fired a couple but like they're occupying actual positions of power of this girl is going to be going into uh, you know being a lawyer at like some like microsoft or some shit, uh she's one how we will actually think like that he feels a lot IT was my sense this weekend was like Young people genuinely kind of are of this belief. I also just follow a big like follow the engagement person online and um there is plenty of tones of like shocking amounts of support for this stuff like really huge I mean any post I have very well I say run my mouth of a lot but like I don't get a lot of haters in in my comments i've never gone so many genuinely uh once when I was piled twice when I was piled on by trouble house guys um uh while ago over a santana go thing and then this week when I was saying like just simple things like this is horrible like all my god like I can't believe one of singer whatever like indicated with comments, there's a lot of support for this stuff. I don't really see how I just goes away.

Now I have a question for you. Like what percent of twitter users i'm going to just keep calling on twitter because .

calling in excess and let's .

call twitter. Now I say, what percent of twitter users do you think are in the united states of the america?

That's a good question. Yeah, you're right. So I I think probably uh, not a majority .

and I did says.

yeah, I maybe tempers .

what about .

like people who are actually making the .

most start out with the fact english is the global language? Everybody sort of speaks IT. And everyone know most, most of the people on twitter speaking english and most of the tweet are in english. And then most of the people on twitter are english speaking.

People of speaking english to some degree who are not from this counter um then after that uh ask this how many people are actually um like the engagement you're getting represents how many actual people. So if you see some of the most horrible tweet that I saw no in favor of, hoos got twenty thousand likes. Now, twenty thousands, a lot. people. Forty five.

the I G. Prostitute clifter. The forty five thousand.

That is a lot of people, right? But I wouldn't fill the michigan stadium, you know, IT. Wouldn't that in the grand scheme of global things, that's a tiny drop at the bucket.

So i've always believed that twitters um not not the twitter allows them in terms of what you see, but the the twitter set up in terms of the way that concentrates responses on certain things. Um IT produces the illusion of vast quantities of people, produced the illusion of consensus, the illusion of math opinion, where none actually exists. IT is an illusion. And I think that, you know, I would get piled on by the the D S. A people like all the time with just a couple hundred people yelling like euro docker and and sending the just the same dub means and they they never have an already they just say you are nude but then there IT is um and my job is sort of to get called stupid by stupid people all day and I I reckons out of myself of that but then but it's only a few hundred people and like even at this this massive moment when like the whole world is watching and twitter has how many, like what over one hundred million users and then like you know millions of regular users you have yeah but .

IT was enough. That's enough. Your manufacturing consent. I understand that it's it's a it's a minority of people, but they are able to use these tools to change behavior. Among the broad pocus.

I would say there is a general thing that this was complicated and you see that that's the reason that the universities were so tentative in their commentary on this in the beginning that didn't want to offend anybody. And and so they do have you're right. I I think you're right that IT is a minority of people, and I think that they are able to export a lot of influence on institutions.

And I hope IT, I hope this is the moment that that changes the bl, I thought was really crazy from chicago. Um so you you had the B L. Chicago put up a heroic image of a parisot parachutes famously went into the uh into the festival in mass occurred two hundred and sixty people looked like there were some pretty brutal rapes there without accounts of that.

Now a kidnapping, obviously, if family, the girl screaming on the back of truck being dragged into gaza, uh, and you have bill m celebrating that there was a uh J C A A um founder of a company in uh tech. SHE was like to tweeted, uh I received immense pressure in twenty twenty to not only support this privately I I was IT was insisted that I publicly support bm, the organization. And now washing this, and the mask is finally off. I think a lot of people are having that experience with these organizations, right? I say, I think, I hope, I hope that a woman.

the truth about B, L. M. Organizations is that they were discredited at a long time ago, even among people who marched in B.

L. M. protests. So billion protests were very widespread. I mean, the flow protests were, by some measure, the largest protests in modern american history. I mean, that was partly just because people needed something due during the lockdown, but partly because there was a mass outward IT IT was nationwide. Um the billion orders are actually very small orders that just take that name because no one else has the right to tell them not to use IT. And they are consistent drifters and embed lars and and most of the people in march in the marches will have negative things to say about .

those organza ride. I wonder what their perspective is also.

So the people who decide I am B L M, we are just going to declare where five people who we're going to clear that we are B L M chicago, like those are just the dsa guys looking for more and and using this popular brand, you know, because there's no copyright, there's no intellectual property here. They can just use that brand and then everyone thinks bad is be alone and whatever there is like a and piled police brutality march.

You know, the chance black lives matter people think that march is some of being organized by that, or that just took the name, but it's not. And like most people think, those people are drifters. Now that being said, among the general like lefty youth movement, there's way way way wait too much acceptance of the sort of um tankee perspective and and the the promos perspective and that IT is way too common. Um but I think that what we're seeing is a separation where uh I ve been using the words progressive and left us different timing ing different things for years now and and sometimes people people even don't realize i'm using differently.

But left I don't use progressive. I think it's like just not fairy. I don't deserve the word but left test in liberal I was I used different .

differently yeah and and the people you know themselves will define these terms fairly plastically. You know there there is a funny moment in after super tuesday, twenty twenty, when berny lost that primary when all of the of like the know current affairs and the chop of guys and the standard campaign, they stopped using the word socialist and started using the word progressive the day after berny lost.

And IT was amazing, just the shift, they just all switched. They were like copper were progresses now, because now they were falling back. They at first they thought, like, we're socialists.

We're going to overthrow the progressives who were just weak in wimpy and were socialists. Then when they realized that that the democratic primary voters working, going to go for that at all, they pivoted extremely quickly. And actually, we're progressive. We're just like. Receive candidate and no one went for IT.

Your use of that word that is confusing me not just on the fact that I think the word progressive means something that I consider myself but like just is not how it's used in some Francisco and safran cisco progressive is used for leftists IT is distinguished from moderates, liberals and and and so progressive to me is is left as I don't see a distinction there at all I don't use the word progressive but like that is how they that is what they all .

call themselves that's right. Um there's nothing. So I can really do anything about that.

I'm trying to use words and I can make up my own terms and then I have to be one of those guys, you know makes up his own terms and then and then tries to get everyone else to use them. Well, actually it's this. This is what you are. I've made up this word and you have to apply yourself. And I could be that guy, but you instead I just sort of like, aim at the target.

ask question the back. And I think it's interesting silence about you. This is a huge thing that was said in twenty and twenty and never believe that then. I still don't believe that now. But brand, you want to frame the question and let's have a conversation about that.

Yeah the question is simply is saying the silence is violence. Is that council culture can you can the right turn around and say silence is violence because .

even if democrats ever right now saying like you have like is the concept of like you being quiet as an institution, as an individual in the place of power, is that valid in a moment .

like this act, either act man or summers said said that almost forbid these .

people did a summer wanted to harvard to say something in in response yeah.

And that that felt very ironic to me when I read that.

I was just going to say, I mean, I think that we're kind of at the the end of the life cycle of silence is violence to some extent um and that the the kind of counter cancellation of the people who issued the student groups who issued these statements to me shows that because there's now this sort of like the stanford president who who eventually issued the international president who venture sued the statement condemning uh the homes attacks and israel had this addendum at the end of his uh statement where he said, you know it's it's been in vogue in recent years for universities to issue statements on all kinds of geopolitical issues and to you constantly um you know provide their take um and you know I think that going forward university should do less of this um because really maybe this isn't in their preview and I do think that there is this kind of like the way that the student groups have been puni shed for issuing these new jc boiler plate statements. Which by the way, I think in a lot of cases, i'm not sure that actually indicates like very wealth thought through political belief to the extent that like all of these statements are kind of copy and pasted from each other um and they all use the same sort of slogans um that we've become a customer now to hearing like you know from the river to the sea that kind of thing um but you know the silence is violence thing I think started with B L M in twenty, twenty, twenty and there is this huge pressure for us all to let come out and you know the black square phenomenon and you know say that we thought police preti was wrong um and I just I don't know if it's if the next time a crisis like this erruptive I was be rushing to SHE stated .

nice in a tes was IT an aides thing what silence is violence? I feel IT was an eighties thing that was then brought back in this context. I I don't not to look IT up.

I think that you can't be expecting someone to speak out ever. I think it's like I want the world to be, especially people are not for plugged in. You don't want to speak about a political thing.

Please do not like stay home. Don't put up your black square for any of these things. You're perfectly entitled to not being logged into the news and speaking out about IT that goes for institutions, that goes for people.

I I think um I also understand why, let's say, you're a hard core palestinian person and the most atrocious thing that you've ever seen happens is this isri thing and you really do believe it's like it's extremely disturbing. It's bad. But you're thinking yourself like i'm going to get blamed for this and it's not what palestinians are and the whole topic just upsets you because you're like, oh god, everyone's going to think this is palestine.

It's just to us how do I talk about this? I can't talk about IT without pissing off uh, muslims. Maybe you're in a space where that's really difficult. You have a muslim family that is like super obsessed with this. You can talk about IT you wanted to go away. I kind of understand just like wanting to stay out of bit and um I would never hold that against anyone personally like I think that there are a million reasons you might not want to talk about something and IT doesn't necessarily mean that it's because your pro violence. It's it's when people aren't silent and they come and say, hey, i'm pro violence that's what i'm like okay, well, we have to talk about this now.

What what are the chances that, uh, two things that were actually the same would write? Very low which tells you it's very likely that people just said silence as violence because IT rived remembering .

and remembering that um i'm pretty sure sciences violence on those lawn signs where IT says in this house we believe and science, like all humans are illegal and then like the last thing, silence is violence.

I think you might just be creating this .

on our let me .

look up IT in the south you believe I see kindness is everything as the the standard one. The original one said in this, actually believe black lights matter. Women's rights to human rights.

No human is illegal sciences. Real love is love, kindness. No sciences .

is not silence.

probably somebody else.

Silence is violence everywhere. You know, I would just remember being in college at the time, and IT was like, you could not post anything on social media that did not have.

I live in los. There was multiple bed sheet like hanging off of rich people's houses in the hills with spray painted like White. Silence is violence and and in the driveway to you also see all .

the store fronts putting IT up because they don't want to your window shadow .

and it's like that's that's like the star of David on on the the egyptian the duty last but .

your son is isn't killed by the the plague of god so if I don't look me sign .

but anyway um but the point is this IT is perfectly legitimate to criticize people for actually accepting and not speaking up about ongoing atrocities in society, in the abstract. That's a legitimate to do right? If you are.

someone should be expected. Who should be expected? Everyone has to say, I saw that.

are not saying that. I am saying that you can IT is an arguable thing. There are situations in which I think there are sins of omission and not just sense of commission, in which bystandard ds actually do something bad by doing not. I think those situations exist. There is not.

I would say in your times, was complicit in that this weekend from their reporting. I was i've rote about IT. I think that that was omission, but their job is to report the truth. I think the average person on instagram is like, I don't know what .

the box going thing you walk by, you see someone getting rave, you don't call the cops, you don't try to do anything. You had these arguments for decades and there are their legitimate comments and there there are highly situation um I think that in in the abstract there can be times when people can be expected to do something we're doing. Nothing is bad.

A sin of omission is a real thing that sometimes happens, right? And that doesn't mean vivid slogans like silence. Is violence universalize that idea in a way that doesn't make any sense and that is, we can all think of times, many, many times when silence is not violence.

And so there is no general principle where we can say silence is or is not violence. There are some situations in which people can reasonable be expected to do something that they didn't do a single miss, right? And there are many situations in which you think you have no right to expect people to do something that they didn't do. And so I think that it's so situation that trying to discover you make some blanket principle about all that just ryans is no, there's no universal principle.

Anyway, I wanted.

I sorry, situation effects relatives.

So so I mean, are we, I guess, just on the cancer culture thing? Is this, are we cancellable people? And is that good? Is that? Is that where we've landed? Or the walk right?

The walk right.

I said wilful, yes, yes, IT is the wow. But i'm saying where the woke right like this is they introduce this language to us. And it's like we've attacked for years and now here we are saying, but some things are perhaps worthy of cancellation.

Well, you know, so I think the people who point out that cancer culture is social austrasia m and social austria been around forever are correct. That doesn't make IT always good and that doesn't mean social australis m is always a good thing. But I think it's correct to identify that that's what IT is.

And I think um I think what happens is that society and technology change to make social austerity m more uh of a burden on society and less of a burden. So I think that for example, if you're in a small town in new england in like the you know early eighty hundred, there's something like that cancel culture or social ostracism. I will say, well, which is just cancel culture is very, very bad here.

It's extremely conformist, you know. Oh no, you slept with your boyfriend now you get a big great a on your head that bad like but then social austrasia of like you're in the the ninety eighties and you're in like uh a pon grack cine and then you wear like swash is and you're always talking about like native shit at the pump rock concert and people like shove you out the door. They don't come with the concert. That's fine because you just do a different concert and not see dork like and the point is that um what are .

those things are not the other. You're just forcing your own your own values, right? So you're saying it's good provided we're cancelling the right things.

That's no. I'm saying that there there's technological situation, a technological meu in which um I don't even know another word for IT, but a set of technologies and in the world that will make social ostracism incredibly damaging to people's lives and will make social ostracism merely slightly annoying and technology determines that.

And when people complain about council culture now what what actually complaining about, even if they don't realize that, is that the internet has change social optimism to turn the world more into a small town. And we are now rediscovering some of the an annoyance of living, some of the burden of living in a small town and being subject to the consensus morality of small, of the small town mob. You know, we're rediscovering this after decades in which the car and the mother industrial economy, all these things at urban ization liberated us, temporary from small town moral consensus, breathing down our next all day.

We then are rediscovering IT because twitter and the rest of the internet turned our society into a small town again. Maybe it's a small town of like a few hundred thousand people. Maybe it's a small town of a few million people on who are actually active twitter users, but it's still a small town because, you know, everyone knows everything that everyone else says and everyone knows everybody.

And and so it's I think, and and nobody ever forgets anything. Everyone remembers what you did. You know, if you if you were caught having sex with some person, that if you one remembers that for twenty years, for the rest of your life, because the internet is forever, because they can screen shot your tweet and they can screen your facebook messages and they had your photo there, and everyone knows you are. And though, you know, we we escaped small town life in the mid and late twenty eight centuries, and all of us grew up in a time when we could escape the small town morality and then a new technology came that thrust us back into that small town. And we hate.

I think there is something interesting about just, you used to be able to, I think, about that small town, the your time, even the carlo letter, if you got really bad, you still could leave towns and that is just no longer the case, right? Yeah, it's like we're all in a small town and yet it's everybody and we're not supposed to be in a small town literally everybody, someone, nobody about to come and will bring you back in.

But I do you have a question person before as we're getting closing here, it's for a hate to like be giving you like as a Younger person questions but as as a Younger person um is sick stupid conversation like the cancellation thing been so internalized that people are just like obviously we're going to be cancellable forever um it's not even cancellation like it's just, you know its consequences. Is that is that totally in grained? Or is IT more of a trend? Uh, are people thinking about IT differently, specifically in the context of this way? You see in this of god is real thing is that has that changed the conversation at all?

Yeah, I mean, I think I do agree with you know, to the extent that I think cancellation is really just sort of emergent with the technology we use, like I think that it's almost, in my opinion, naive to think we can escape cancel culture when we're using a technology that allows people to sort of that rewards people for the kind of viral uh, tweet in which they are, you know, citing something someone said and this tweet gets references ced and then IT goes you know ah IT blows up and and this gets to the person who's posting the treat a lot of notoriety.

I mean I think what i've seen from people I know um who I don't know anyone who's gotten cancelled for posting you know stuff after um the homes attack, but I have seen a kind of um realization from a lot of people I know on the left that um the cultural winds are shifting such that they will now have to resign themselves in a way that's more advantages um and I think you know i've always again with these university statements. It's like all of this is just virtue signals of course why does the Apollo dent association need to issue a state men about the homes attack on in gaza walls because we live in like this cultural paradigm where they think they're expected in order to stay in in you know the good Graces of their peers to issue this kind of statement. Now they're being punished for IT.

And so I think they're just going to real line um you know to what they think will be full, allow them to stay in the good Graces of their peers um and I don't think that that in my mind that doesn't constitute like A A reckoning of about cancel culture. Like I don't think I see people my age. We're like maybe we should stop posting screen shots of our peers saying stupid shit um you know from their slack pages and you know messenger uh, conversations just the option that there yeah sorry .

yeah just .

they're just no relinquished sort of do that that kind of thing.

So which will have consequences across repercussive. Left broadly, I think IT has to evolve right now, especially you want to mean I think just practically speaking, if you want the support of jewish people who are a major part of the the democratic party, um not in terms of population, obviously it's a small group of people, but it's it's a culturally important IT is in terms of uh, donations and just Howard status like jew's people bring a lot to the table and uh I don't know how moving forward the democratic party could possibly maintain support from jewish people without. Doing what biden is been doing smartly, I think, which is just coming in really, really.

really strong on on this issue or just people they used to be. I mean, they're down to last one point six or one point eight percent of the population from a former .

like five to six percent of the us. population. So but I don't think they matter as a voting block though I never have it's more about cultural and economic impacts.

And like I mean start like even it's where I was me that that I always been aware of how huge people there wear from jersey. I was surrounded by jewish, and this has come up always in my whole life that I want to boston, want to be you. Third of my house was jewish, like I ve known jewish people.

The added that there weren't many jewish as weird to understand um but I didn't know IT um but the places that I go right like I was in publishing, i'm in tech. I was like A A college like these are places where um those people exist and uh and do you have influences? I think and I think IT is important and they do out a lot to the democratic party.

So it's not something that you want to just lose. And also, the israel relationship is incredibly born to amErica for all sorts of crazy. I'm not going again. I'm not sitting here trying to have a geopolitical conversation on the power wires podcast, but IT seems like that is an important lions. And I I want to .

sort of get back to my my whole you punchline here about my idea that that council culture is actually just cancel technology, and the people always tried to cancer each other. I think that the idea, every everyone sort of in their mind, has this, this mental model of cultural phenomena has being autonomy s like people just decide this, and then enormous change, and then people talk about and decide this other thing.

And I think there is that, you know, there's not zero of that in the world, but think we consistently under the impact of technology. And so I think that um and the enter play between two and I think that my instinctive solution is for for the problem of everyone being in one small town is to break up the small town and to have and I think we're already seeing this. I think most discussion is now happens in D M groups, be that on facebook or or chat WhatsApp signal um telegram, whatever D M groups, even twitter D M groups um or slack or discord or things like that or or small groups.

You know discords are not dm slack are not dms but it's a small group, you know it's it's a small town. And if you say something horrible in a discord group and then someone goes impositive to twitter, a few people make care, but it's not like something that you posted to twitter. So I think facebook was the problem in the mid twenty tens and solved itself by pushing all the discussions into facebook groups.

And that's why no one talks about facebook is a political force anymore, even though people are discussing politics on facebook. Plenty of doing in groups and dms. 嗯， and I think twitter is twitter is the same. I think we twitter needs to I I would like IT if twitter just died, but i'll be happy if twitter simply shrinks in importance to where IT becomes this sort of paper bag that everyone shots into but that ultimately that's not where a real discussion, real consequent discussion happened most on twitter dying.

And this is a not a rolly question. I'm genuinely .

good or shrinking.

right? I say like let's talk because I why um are you on IT? Because you think that you .

have to be on IT?

Yes, for your fair job. okay.

So that is I like quin. Second, I would never be up.

Yeah I would say that IT definitely is a kind of poison in my life but has always been and yet IT also has tremendous ly benefit me and I can't deny that I am good at IT as are you and IT has health works I about IT is not an audience and .

that you know writer and publisher .

and it's important for those reasons I don't see a Better tool still um though I can share my link so maybe I don't know uh brand I cut you off a moment O I want to tell with this technology is second and are going to keep going. Then there we are a last topic, but I would want to make sure that I get brand point IT before I come off.

Sure just just that um know what you described kito culture as um actually A A technology a like an an emergent phenomenon from a technology. I think there's still another side of that like when we complained about and and complained about cancer culture, now we complained about IT because people are getting cancelled for really stupid uncancelled able stuff like the as ease and sorry, bad date like that for me.

When I think about cancer culture, I think about microprograms sions. And so I think cancel culture is is you can't disconnect IT from um I don't know the shifting norms that started in twenty eighteen and have lasted until maybe now maybe maybe now we're sort of at the tail end of IT, but my my point was just to say that I don't know that you can say it's only attack a technology issue. I think it's also like people are getting cancelled for telling a bad joke at an elevator and having been overheard, this happened at the attack conference in like twenty seventeen or something .

like that yeah that is also maybe just it's it's possible to be you can disseminate stuff like that because of the technology rapidly. And IT is, excuse me, associated to a profile or not. I still do is I I think IT is a cultural change, but I would have been a the cultural change would have been not really impactful if there were not a way to spread that message around rapidly and have a affect your actual life status.

Like what could you even have done with something like that in the nineties? I mean, how would a would a joke that you told that an elevator have been have spread? And I think that unless someone put IT on the news, which is like unthinkable, I wouldn't have mattered.

I know. But we're in a situation right now where all four of us are talking about our kind of feeling like some people should be cancelled for the really bad stuff that they're doing right now. They're saying that they're doing great parades, right? We're like that can table um a season stories. Bad day maybe now well.

so here's I think because the the influence that we now have with our opinions, also because of technology, makes IT somewhat. There is some validity to like if someone is out there, a spouse, truly horrendous things and they have a huge distance, you want to talk about that and and you have more of a reason, like, I don't know what a student group would have done at harvard in the nineties for nature.

Sy, where would they have written, I guess that would they have written something in the crimes in? And like, where would they have done that even um like an email they didn't even have a birthday, even emails in the nineties. I remember Emily in the nineteen like in the midd nineties or some nineteen eighties.

Like like where did those messages you would have had to have gone to some coffee shop to meet some crazy person um and even then I would have been stuck in the coffee you wouldn't heard about IT elsewhere. Um he was just like the technology has allowed for much Spiker culture like weird extremes. And because of that there's it's actually somewhat rational. Someone, when I have for me today for looking at this girl, I saw two tweet of hers no, you guys all maybe i've seen IT was the girl saying, i'm waiting for, like, White americans to stand up and denounce every macho hinging and we are all like, yeah like.

yes, I do for sure. I couple yes.

IT was a crazy thing. And then her other one was like, just a pro revolution on on saturday morning, SHE treated pro revolution and I squeeze out those. I was like me. I think there's a cultural difference here.

And I started to send a cultural difference here um between like us and her and someone was like, why do you engage with these crazy people I like because that's a lots of people are seeing that and lots of people are i'm looking at the numbers like people do agree with that. And so I think that you are looking at trends. And as I think no is that earlier, I think it's true that they are less.

They're less of them. Then IT feels like when you're on twitter, but these trends do grow. I was in Brandon, you're at doc catalogue editing me fifteen, twelve, may be twelve years ago when people were talking about systemic White supremacy and that I was like, that's fucking crazy.

I would talk about IT with people in the real world. They never heard of that before. And I was in there.

He is like message, like in the comment section of these dumb articles. Be like, that's a crazy idea. AmErica is not a systemically White supreme this country. Now that is a standard opinion.

So because of the technology, because of how fast and idea can be, can proferred or can spread and prolific like you, I think you are forced to kind of engage with this stuff to a certain degree until you shot down. But I don't know how you shut IT down. I don't know. You can just lip a switch and turn off the internet. Ability to mainstream these crazy ideas.

It's just twitter. And it's not that you just said .

it's not because you want to shut IT down. Why do you want to shut IT down? Because you'd recognize the power of IT. And if you can say.

I know that what I mean, it's just twitter as when you talk about the internet, the the the aggregated internet is much less good at IT does spread crazy beliefs, but their spread is naturally limited by the size of groups.

Redit birds gamble. There are a little bit narrower. I mean, we have massive redit groups for people aggregate but IT ah you know maybe I see you're saying maybe does a maan dream quite as quickly. Twitter is pure IT is like pure a pure .

pure mainstream of extremism and and amErica has now been forced to mainstream the extremism of everybody in every other country too. And I think our miracle 的 causes us to forget that a lot of these complete genois assets or dig are are sitting there in a country with a per cabinet GDP of two thousand dollars and just， you know, like tweet out their ethnic gators and we think it's the person .

next door to us. It's not just twitter. I I think you you we should do now and say it's basically the discovery algorithm.

Tiktok has a discovery algorithm by that, I mean um but it's an algorithm an algorithm tune to. Not giving you content from the people that you follow. It's an algorithm that optimizes keeping you on the the platform that you're looking at.

And so you're just getting the um the thing that's going to uh Spike your quarters all or domain levels as much as possible and any algorithm does that um that's the facebook news feed algorithm gytha that's tiktok and that's twitter right now. I think gona promote it's gna promote this this site, the small town I don't know thing that you describe nowhere just scattered kally not just witter. I don't think .

this type of to talk about because all these you have by parts and consensus right now, and you have for quite a while to do to do something about the algorithms, I think that there's no way something is not. Maybe i'm wrong, maybe just because the democrats wants something totally different than the republicans when they all want something done. I was talking to, I can't say I can someone in the day and, uh, they were like, obviously the republicans want, uh, less.

They want, they want social mean companies to have a less power over what what what can I cannot be removed ah that has been diminished somewhat under the age of elan because he just is so important right now to so many republicans um but the democrats just want watch much more and so maybe just by that reason, nothing happens. Maybe we are just like stuck in this like legislatively, nothing will happen. IT doesn't seem like any other companies like this can emerge.

The platforms are so mature. Tiktok took me by surprise. But um I mean, that was a new medium like we would need a new medium to accompany one of these platforms to grow uh to grow again. Um I don't know know at last thoughts before we wrap IT up.

I think that the world adapted the technologies. And if if you set there in the ID eighteen hundreds and you look at the impact of the pressing press and of pamphlets that people are just pass out saying, like, kill all those people in the blah, you would say that the printing press have been unmitigated disaster for social stability. And we had thousands of years of agricultural stability under kings.

And then along come these crazy revolutionary and start beheading people, you know and doing all these horrible things um because of the printing press and then by you know by the by the two thousands the printing press like newspapers, you know then the the the paperboy throwing the city newspaper on the your front lawn is regarded as the safe thing you know that now is being chAllenged by these scary new online media things I think um humanity adapt to technologies and sometimes are adaptations are social and sometimes are adaptations are legal and political and sometimes are adaptations are technological in nature. But I think that we do adapt. And it's just a question of how fast, how fast to adapt in overall, I see us adapting to new chAllenges faster than we did the eighty hundred years and early ninety hundreds.

I think that I used to take us fifty to one hundred years to adapt to. Some of these things are maybe even multiple centuries. And now I see us adapting with them like a couple decades, and it's still a couple decades is a significant portion of our life. And so we live a significant portion of our life in the case created by social media. But I believe that we will adapt and that the fragmentation of discussion we're seeing is already sign of adaptation and that twitter is not going to succeed in aggregating all discussion on into one clap form, that instead the tendency is tored fragmentation and that that's good.

Okay, well, I have a lot to push back on the goodness of the printing press, but we will save IT for another day. No, you guys should check out, know a sub stack. He are. You just know a Smith on twitter. I just thought I .

see you no opinion on twitter as well.

No, no opinion. That's what is no opinion on twitter. Check out on sub stack. Thank you for joining us. We will see guys next week.