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cover of episode TRAPPED at Burning Man! & Elon Musk vs. ADL | PIRATE WIRES EP# 13 🏴‍☠️

TRAPPED at Burning Man! & Elon Musk vs. ADL | PIRATE WIRES EP# 13 🏴‍☠️

2023/9/8
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I was told they were met in hazmat suits there quarantining the entire plant, potentially, like many, many, many people, are going to die. What was your experience on the ground?

I think we had the most insane party of other head um we part just like does eight hours state in one of our tents if anything I would say IT became even more fun.

Here's my amp camp.

Yeah did not bother.

did not have ebola. Welcome back to the pod today. We've got special guest library, a former professional poker player, current host of the wind wind pod. And I guess you would say just x risk researcher for later pic all around fun person on twitter.

We made online um a couple of years ago, like all my best, I think everyone here in this chat I met on line first much maybe brand and I think brand and night I saw before I um and um and we've got around today, we are going to do a lot of a lot of stuff. We are going to talk about the d elvers elon stuff. We're going to talk about the times A I one hundred list, but we're all else going to talk about burning men and live with there.

I've been there I went there years ago backing twenty fifteen. Have a lot of thoughts on IT, but that is where we're going to start because live I was surprised to see I was I think monday when you waited and um I was shocked to see that you were alive um you add night you would not got ten lost in the mud and you would not starve to death. You would not been eaten by giant fairy shrip. You would not had your skin burned off by acid .

mud um did not ebola.

did not have ebola which was shocking to me because I was told that they were met in hazmat suits, their quarantining, the entire pia um what was your experience on the ground was the first one was, is there any truth like while you were done, let's say, saturday morning about friday night, saturday morning, pop mean sort of flurry and he was multi partition you know you saw on the right, you saw on the left, you saw people in the media talking about IT.

You saw regular as norm people talking about IT was unlike the regular local news um it's kind of where ended up by by mid weekend and there was a night there was a sense that um U S. Were in middle of an actual like sort of apocalypse level scenario potentially like many, many, many people are going to die. That was that was kind of what we were seeing, what was IT like on the ground. And i'm wondering if there was any truth to any of that sort of leading up to the, I would say, like crazy misinformation this .

area a um yes. So from my perspective, yes, the the city definitely ground to a halt um in terms of you couldn't the way people usually get around a burning man is via bike um or on like an art car lesson sort of three percent of people are walking um and you could not write a bike on the and the mud is insanely you so you he's usually on this this like dusty player which is very like baked hard, completely flat surface but when he gets water added to IT it's like this like incredibly find silt that turns into glue for one of a Better word um so IT did ground the city to a halt but in terms of like the the atmosphere there, if anything I would say IT became even more fun because like the whole e source of burning man is um about like expecting the unexpected and you know making the best of of strange situations which this certainly was and most crucially like you have to be self a self a lion as possible.

But also bring access um whether that is excess food access, expertise, effort and so on and so people you know does like turned up what they only do which is like making sure that everyone is OK and taking care each other um and you know so we couldn't go out on party like in the player like you Normally do. So we just had the most insight on the friday night when the mud got absolutely like like at its worse and the rain was coming down really heavily. I think we had a couple of inches of rain.

I think we had the most insane party i've ever had. We party just like dance for eight hours, state in one of our tents um and like both friends like even hike across player one, a friend of my high tower for like an hour half through the thick mud to get to the know he figured out we would probably be parting and came over so yes the ground the city ground to hold in a conventional sense but still burning man Carried on IT was just like generally more localize and there was known on bikes. And then in terms of like was this if the rain had continued for like six days, which would be such an unprecedented event, would be like like four signal events, something like that.

Then maybe ship would start to get a bit real because I genuinely people would start running out of supplies. But most people what people don't seem to understand is that most people we're planning on leaving to monday, on sunday, on monday and this end on friday. So IT wasn't like there was suddenly a shortage.

Um one of the most astonishing things about burning man is that you get like seventy eighty thousand thousand people together in incredibly dense living, inhospitable conditions, whether it's rain or shine for a week and there's you all kinds of like altered minds and all sort of stuff going on. And I have never in my eight years going seen a single act of violence, like not one i've seen people bricker yeah no sure. Like tensions get afraid and now and then but like it's I feel safer in that city than I do in any city on earth, walking around as a woman and you know, walking around with anyone, you know and and and nothing in regard changed.

So IT was, yes, the the truth that was you and and they don't get me wrong. Some media were actually quite accurate like yeah like there's been a lot of mud and so people can't really move around right now. And that was incentive if those media did a great job, but there was so much hype given like it's it's a pocalypse out, their diseases spreading dollar and IT was just orbit.

I think when the new start started to break for the first time, I felt like a lot of people who are talking about this who really had no sense of what burning man was because your description of the rain in how people celebrated, and that was just fun and actually people's as a chAllenge. They wanted to meet what night?

I think, I think for people who have ever bent there, or who really don't know anything about IT IT sounds, IT could sound immediate. Two different ways. One, like, you're making that up.

I couldn't possibly be like that or two like uh you know you're being a little bit precious about like you like this Sparkly Sparkly like perfect like environmentally conscious people are like dugas or whatever um but IT just is actually facts like this is a good of people who are looking first of all, so many of these people are looking for an interesting chAllenge. And I member, before I went, this was a huge part of IT that was drilled into me, was the preparation for this. You know you're going out there.

The environments actually extreme um self reliance surprised people who are building shit that surprised when I first heard about IT I was in my really one is burning man is not like a music festive. I think people think of burning men and they like all people are out there are doing drugs, dancing and it's like diploma is performing and what not but they don't headline. There's just something allowed. You don't have musicians like billing their performance or why not some go like diploma went to have fun and probably was performing in our car, whatever.

But he is my campus .

was at your camp. Yeah so but but he was not like you're not like a star, like build gesture, whatever. That's not pretty. I don't even know if you could say it's an art festival is a campout.

It's a very radical sort of subversive thing that started one hundred and eighty six beaches of 3 france is go, this kind of first version of this, where just people celebrating assault, the summer assault, and they let a giant sort of woman, man on fire, twenty people with there, this group of a coffy society. This is a sanfords isco area based, based group their sort of dedicated like mistress making an interesting pranks. So they were um super super camera cultural uh group.

They were actually responsible for the first same icon. This is before he became A A flap boy thing. IT was just a john law described IT to me as we've got a bunch of sand us out on the golden gate bridge to freak people out and that's that's just like, wouldn't be weird, he said.

If you were driving down the golden gate bridge and they were just fifty sanc loses standing there, that would be thought weird. And IT was. And that's how IT started. And the idea was they took IT to the desert.

And this was going to be from the beginning, IT was a kind of synthesis technology of r IT was just like smart, strange, like hippy culture and pop culture coming together. Yeah, doing something quite like radical, which was building a temporary city in the midst of the desert, a from nothing. And in december, ling IT and vanishing without you, leaving a trace.

And that was what was compelling to me, music as a essay kid in my early twenty, when I first about IT, just because we can't build anything today, like at all, in the real world. And so how could you build? And if you see some of these pictures of burning man structures and the actual loud of the city and the organization there, IT is, like you said, IT is a seventy or eighty thousand person city.

And that just fluctuations ool. And the kind of people who are attracted to that tend to be a little equipped. They also tend to be kind of radical and crazy. And like I thinking then, I bet IT is really, really fucking fun right now.

Actually, I think everyone is going to look back on this, and this is gonna know their favorite burning me first before I I want to talk about some of the reaction I was on social. But like my take on the burning is that you've been there, he said, I think you see with, yes. So you're way more into this than I am. Is that kind of roughly how you would describe burning? Man, what have I missed making to eat those you talk about?

yes. I mean, mean that what's so interesting about IT is that basically it's as IT IT goes as hard as possible on like allowing for freedom as IT can without falling completely interactive. And it's like a really like tough dance to have with any kind of society, right? It's like how many what is the minimum number of rules that you can have that maximize freedom without selling into complete chaos? Ani and IT feels to me, at least for something of this size and in this environment, if they figure that out, they have basically ten rules. Then even rules their principles um I want listen all but like things like .

um inclusive ity I get inclusive .

ity like everyone is welcome whatever that you creed color background in police unit and and any trudie is diverse set thing people like oh it's all happy is or it's it's all rich people know like IT is truly um and IT tries hard as I can to be as diverse as possible in the in the like highest sense of the term diversity as well like ideological diversity because you mention a good point like IT, there's a lot of like sort of a like combo hippy types, but there's also a bunch of like fuck you burn, fuck you like sort of the earth, like proper puns.

You will come and like you know you like you basically like fuck up your shit a little bit. And I love that I love that attention between those two you know those two sort of categories and everything in between um but there is also stuff like a radical self of reliance you know don't expect someone to get you out of trouble even though probably someone will because people are kind you know bring you know don't expect to as leach off the community, bring surplus so that you can help someone else out and someone else will help you out. There's no buying of anything. There's no bartering either. It's all done on gifting and surplus.

which is another I want to double click on out really quick. This is the kind of the department I really expected to hate everybody there. I was going because I thought the history was interesting.

And I want to see a temporary city. I just that idea was enough and I and I just really wanted to see that um and I was convinced I was going to go there in some ash was gonna the exam. We don't believe in money here.

And like he shoes like a fucking and soda and like you've got to give me something that IT was actually a IT was uncomfortable for me for about a half a day in which you you're walking through the city and people are just handing new states like food lunch is uh like whenever free hand tattoos coming here and let's do a class on a back as science camp back then walk the page um run by or currently run by a front end of money is molecular biologist and our synthetic biology i'm sorry and it's for real people are bringing stuff to the to this experience just to give IT two other people and it's just I can explain how just IT IT was nice and I I hate to sali. It's like feel i'm going to fuck up my brand over here by coming this kind of here. But like he was like really quite beautiful and um everyone was primed for just interesting human connection with very, very strange, very, very radical people are with lots of interesting ideas IT was ideas festival I think almost before all the other stuff.

Yeah I would complete degree. It's it's um and I an that's not to say that IT doesn't come without tensions. You know like there are um you know one of the things that sort of like if if you can like take the community in aggregate is is trying to do is IT resist falling into any kind of monoculture because I think that's part of the problem.

Something becomes to combine I or two fuck you burn or whatever, then IT doesn't work and it's just like that IT finds a way to like coexist with these tensions in a way that something like online know twitter does not you know we ve fall into the the summaries. And diversity makes us going to culture wars there. But in burning man, diversity literally makes people stronger.

And yeah, but anyway, what was that? Where was that before? Like they get these ten principles.

Yeah, I think I don't want to listen. And one of them is like, leave no trace, don't leave trash. Basically, you know, everything you bring in has to bring out there is that one.

He's gna pick your trash up for you. Um what else? A D commodification. That's an important one. You know, you touched on IT basically do not come to like hip, your pip, your company here like that is one thing that everyone will sand .

down the commodification of self you see on social media that, I mean, you selling yourself online. You know, i'm taking lots of instagram photos and i'm sharing them with the world, but really, I want attention and I want to earn likes and waves and comments and things like this. Uh, you see that online and I think that's the exposure that a lot of hap to burn manage just like this release list. I think they're called like Sparkle ponies on the pride like where is like in the show we outfits in there like you know constant posts like lid laugh loving my way through burning men or whatever really found upon like you you're not even supose at your point out really a burning man. It's it's like very o to like there are these other army my rules but just culturally you feel this role strong resistance .

to IT and yeah I have to say is one I struggle with myself. Like for example, this year I was the first time I ever did anything where I like, I decided going to do to talks at IT. And like my eager, I was that I went back and forth in IT.

Like, aren't you down like self promoting if you advertise that gonna do these talks something like, yeah, I kind of aam, so maybe I shouldn't be at same time like, I know that i've got like the shit I wanted talk about is like, you is like my existence. Al, risk of staff. And so and that really matters.

And I think that bunning, my community would benefit from IT. So it's like, how do I navigate that and and at the same time, like I takes I know I do get a couple of sixth photos on the player. Like maybe I shouldn't post them, but like I want I want as many people to come and I get to experience this experience for how do you do that without like advertising IT.

And yeah, I don't know what the the right part is there. And I maybe I i've probably myself like fAllen too much into like they're like posting of pictures. Um it's it's interesting. But as again, like it's part of this tension that we have to figure out how to navigate.

But all of this stuff, I really I the strangest of the event and the the way that IT sort doesn't track ideologically to any one thing and yet does mean something in general IT makes IT really hard to share with people who have not been there, and IT makes IT really hard to attack in a way that is coherent.

Now if you've got got been there and you see the attacks, that doesn't really matter because you don't know that it's but while you guys were there, what I saw um so stranger than the misinformation was I always say it's been strange at this point because I saw IT with the versions. We've en this for a while when people who are perceived to be um Better off in some way experience something calvus. They are easy, very loud contention of people on and celebrate feel like there was an almost like national holiday following the implosion of this visible with non stop, just hard core socialist excited the billionaire ed, this one was not quite so bad because I think one person died, which was framed as like, of course, he was a disaster.

If someone died, someone dies almost every year. This is eighty thousand person. City people died at burning me.

People died all sorts of festivals. IT is sad. It's like people are doing drugs. They're dehydrated, like the things happen.

Well, if you get if you take any random IT sample of eighty thousand people on earth statistic, it's not that unlikely that one of them dies during that time period during one week like yes, like that part of life.

So the reaction though you had you had right wing people. So you had a lot of people on the right of the sort of trade, right, let's say, who are looking at this. They were saying, and this is kind of maybe what you expect.

And this is you would have gotten thirty years ago. You have people looking at that and saying, um here are these devil worshipers in this kind of assad omi the mora. Ask about canada.

A of course, god is smiling them down. One, that's A A very group basic one. Two, I like a generator. I want a lot of older um jex people being like these millennial have reached middle age and they want everyone to care about this. But he doesn't matter. It's not cool and look as IT ever been cool like when is burning men ever really been a part of culture? Even like me stream like super suc culture, it's kind of an out wire.

But then three, you have uh you have your hard left and like these rich people, right all the sudden burning man is eighty thousand venture capitalists like you were just on twitter that that is sort of you're like it's it's pagan venture capitalist that is the only to that's what everyone there is um and that was the commonality with everyone I guess you there was one commonality was there's a perception that everyone at burning men is rich um crazy because the burning man for me cost less than a trip to disney world IT is a tent that I stayed I heard actually cardboard covered an illuminated oil um food, water, some costumes and uh that I only pass from my jeep and the ticket which is like five hundred books for a week five fifty I think or something like that. So um everyone's kind of coming down on the thing like projecting their the thing that they hate most ideologically in the world ought to this event that really has nothing to do with IT or then or even mainstream culture at all. Its its own serve unique outlier. What if all of you guys, if I mean, they want jumping here like live, what do you make of that that projection, that weird thing that happened where people are kind of throwing their their casting their enemies, so to speak, on the the staying and then and that IT not only did they make up the person at burning man, that then made up an event that is hurting that person, and then they celebrated IT. I mean, it's a fucking crazy cycle right there.

Yeah I mean, I think it's it's part of like this this cultural sickness that we have, which is shadowed fighter, you know it's wanting to feel pleasure at other people's misfortune, even though in this case this wasn't even a misfortune. But they had then there was an misfortune and then they invented whatever their personal like belief system is that were unable to like, unable to like. Point out what was wrong with that in the first place. Some way I shouldn't have existed.

Um and Frankly, you know I don't know maybe this is wishful thinking, but i'd like to actually think that this will make the event stronger because the people the people who are are able to like see through the nonsense will now be probably more even more in trip to go and that's what I heard you know and and more boring like the the people who could not unfortunate everyone can go by a right like there is a hot cap of like eighty thousand um these core principles are so valid, like also valuable to society and so much the antithesis of this. Like not a part coin a phrase, but like it's such a win win environment where somehow like through adversity and like all these differences, like truly pete, like it's like the sum of the whole is greater than the parts and that's like the the exact opposite of this, like very wind loose mindset that seems to have prevented the online world, and to an extent like the real world as well. Like this, one of the most dangerous things we can have in the world is like a full sense of zero on this.

Like is plenty of scarcity out that like, don't get me wrong. And like, you know, there are truly we lose dynamics that we have to figure how to navigate. But what is even worse is when we falsely think something is when lose, when it's not.

And bony man is because IT is such a like when when environment. I think it's almost like there's like this, like meta physical entity that wants things to be like when lose and hostile. That is like collectively using all of the like pathologies of all these like very different groups of people to like flying attack this thing that is frightening um the the the like abundant reality of a the this burning principles and sounds very happy. I ve probably still got a lot of IT in my head in my sister a bit um yeah he does make me sad. I H I think it's going to the evi wonder .

if you can you said they're very important principles and I I agree with in context. I I felt um I know I got so much out of the experience even as honestly being out my phone for a week was was a big barter that had been isolated from in quarantine from the internet and being forced to just be with human beings for seven days was very valuable back when I first started farmers.

But is like twenty eleven there was a good nose of team music, a big burner. And he also, I think I came in through the sea setting institute. So this is like the primary al gov.

That LED to like, uh, in terms of intellectual do that LED to, I guess like the charger city's movement and things like this step working today. It's these people, it's all of these people who they want to build new places and new of doing things and are really experimental with community of what not to look. Every time he would come back from burning, man like, man like, how do we bring that back here? Like what do we do here? Do what you can.

You maybe you can. I think about this because um in ma context of like mars, which was a really compelling idea to me and still is for so many reasons but it's a black slate right burning man is sort of that is a desert. So you know it's rarely impressive that you can build so much a city there for in a week or I guess it's a little bit of the plane before that, but most of the heavy living is done the week before that. It's gone. Um but maybe it's just you need to be starting from nothing and that needs to be temporary or or I mean, how much of that can you can you bring into the into the real world?

Yeah it's difficult because like the real world orality has is like very like entrench starting conditions. I know like just Operating from a principle of like like kindness. That's one saying that i've found i've got this like. I know, I notice I, as soon as I saw a log back online, like I was I N O and that was all just like, just like I was like a wall of negativity that I become like, like, like no, and hit me. I like like this is this is actually what the online world is like.

IT doesn't was marked because I just know the like you're talking about, the nicest, most open people ever or two nici was the assets, I feel in the in group and and people were nice. They were just fucked in nice. And so to see, especially on tiktok, just post after post after post of just hate.

And it's not just for that, right? I'm on tiktok for work purposes. okay? I will the chinese spy up for reason, and I ve got to keep up with the kids.

And IT is like a hateful, is just as hateful as twitter, if not more IT IT is I only even hateful? Maybe the role is like hater. It's like, who can we be fucked in that? That who can we tear down?

You want to find some weird social justice reason for IT. It's all is based on this. I think what you said, this zero, some idea there is a limited amount of things. And so we need to, we need to take people that are something right in order.

in order to to change the world, you have to destroy first without, you know, instead of building it's it's like that like destruction is the way to change.

sure. It's like those people, they just want to burn shit down. And I think that I am just tired pretending that they don't. So a guys last thoughts on before ve, I got a question for the two burners in the chat live. I would say my brother, I was a guest, happy.

So you do to think that the the internet viral tribal sort of orientation or the burning man friendly anarchy orientation and is closer to the sort of human baseline like which which which one is closer to like, what if we took away the internet completely? Would the world be more like burning man? Or would the world still be more like what we see on twitter? All by the quick answer then i'm going to later.

But my sense is that you IT depends on what you mean by the world when there's any group of people who have a lot and come in ideologically. So burning them is a place where people have they're very different in diverse in lots of ways, but they're the same in one very important way, which is they're going to a place open like it's specifically they know that IT is an open place meant for this kind of freedom orientation and meeting lots of different kinds of people when not people already primed for that. Uh, so I I think it's just I think if you have the values going in, it's very nal to be you know positive. I think when you have a collapse of values, there's a real struggle to regain that. And that is what is manifesting maybe as the visceral.

yeah, I would degree. The other thing I would say is what the internet does, that no other form of, like human interaction, sadly not burning menders, is that IT reduces the amount of information transfer going on between humans, right? By definition.

I mean, this is as high fidelity as we get, and we're talking through a videoing and so on. We can see each other. We can each other station expressions. We can hear the tone of voice. And so when we say up, can hear the arms and the eyes, even that you still like you are more likely to have a like an argument with a friend over a video call that you are probably face to face because I like there's even more information going on when you're physically you're able to touch someone you can like.

Who know is that what we can even can smell like biochemically all this kind of stuff, and especially through the written form, like there is just such a wealth of being lost in every interaction that IT in their inviting, like reducing the human experience down to this like this like singular very um collapsed state, which made by by definition is dehumanizing. And when you dehumanize someone, that's when you get the way that happened, like the like the conflicts, like gather, we tend to become more tribal. We look for other ways because we can't like physically reach out and hold someone's hand. We look for we look for other means of connection and IT, just like gives space to this terrible tribalism to rise and and um yes, so that's why I had a great question because I go back comfortable and like, would we be Better if the internet disappeared? And I don't know I don't know the answer.

but I think that we're asking that ten years ago that was an unthinkable question. But I find myself, for the first time in my life, actually having to sit with there are downside, obviously treated upsides, but it's not just this utopian one wins everything is Better scenario. You we're losing a lot because of the internet.

I do I make a lot of you mad at me for signing this, but I do think a big car of IT is that we haven't figured out a model of capitalism that is well with the internet. You know, like in many ways, yes, it's allowed. It's great.

It's like democratized the ability for people to build staff and so on, which is which is fantastic, and capital spread out more. But at the same time, because again, like measuring, you know A P N L like like you know call to the earnings report and these kind of things, they are again they are a very a mono dimensional measure of like whether something is good or not. Know did we did we hit our quality and report or whatever.

Um it's IT misses out all these other values like you know a social media network doesn't actually IT isn't optimising for all its users happy. It's optimising for all its users coming back and clicking refresh all the time. And those things are all fogging or if anything, they're actually anti correlated. Like what is what makes someone keep coming back in? Clicking for more is actually probably IT seems to be more like things like outrage and negative emotions tend to create user engagement at present in the current setup, for example, social media and mainstream media.

Um then um what know what is actually making people smarter, happier? Why is a kinder eeta? And so we need to figure out a way of measuring like success of like companies on the internet that isn't just simply like A A narrow metric of like bottom line or at least like we need to like internalize all these negative example ties .

into into these like to carbon cardis.

But for happiness or something, I think exactly something like that.

yes, I want know live got out there. We have to get the like. Did you see people having trouble getting out? Because that was a whole part of the they are never getting out. I saw some picture.

Anyone anyone who tried to leave on either the friday or the saturday had troubles getting out, right? Because the mud was was so fit. Um we were originally planning on leaving on sunday on monday and in the end we we decided to hike out on sunday because our campus leader IT would bring again on sunday morning and he was like, we were going to drive out with a friend in their ov and our campsite was like, look, anyone who is up for hiking out, I think I would prefer youtube because we don't know when the rains are going to start.

So if you are up to the work and you you can Carry what you know Carrier as much, you can then please, please make the hike out. So we decided to do that. In retrospect, I wish i'd stayed because the rain stopped. I I wanted to, like, ride out with with the people we write. We went in. And but in the end, basically, unless you wanted, unless you desperate, needed to leave on friday or saturday, which as I said, like ninety plus percent of people don't leave to sunday anyway then you basically work like nothing had changed um but no you couldn't easily leave. I saw like some you know I saw I ve stuck in the marta people who tried to drive, you know if you if you don't have a big chunk y four wheel drive, you weren't getting out when the right when the .

mud was so and when you said you hacked out, you hiked like I was like five .

miles to a robe. But there are big ah ah our campus.

unlike the third point from work, actually were .

you he he famous .

video rock this people said .

that he got .

a private like a private shadow or something. He hikes like five miles road and a fan saw him and they give a they ride. They wrote him to town.

From what I understand, he had like a show. He had to be at that. He only raised my, he was again. He wasn't. He was having the time of his .

life and reason. He had a professional commitment .

to get out for the only reason we left us because our cami was like, look, if you wouldn't mind just because we done and how long it's gonna. And you know, at some point we will need to think about food. We again, we were nowhere close to IT and camps as a thing campus want to provide for those who are maybe in shortage because you know our our camp did have a plenty and like maybe people in the area didn't worth starting, they might start to run out if the worst case happened what he did um so yeah and I mean, I was fun I I like I like the experience of hiking out never done that before but yeah, they are part of me wishes you know we had you know well had stay on three more days yeah .

next maybe be another flood um and in the trip last question, no very trip.

I wish I love with dogs. And Sandy.

that was the one that was the one in in a torrent of endless misinformation that when I came up and on my I think that actually might be true. I think that there might be some very sure patching from eggs and I kind of vegal river hearing about something like that when I was there that this was like a potential and but so far no hard evidence the photos I saw her from years prior.

Um okay, I want to move on a speaking of capitalism, we got to get to elon and musk. So uh, our boy ellan decided very publicly that he was going to sue the anti defamation league. This is a phenomenal story.

So river going give a little rivers is going to give a little context on the eighty definition league in a moment. But very quickly, i'll to say this is an ago that has been going to eland's twitter's advertisers from the moment twitter changed hands in an effort to have them leave the platform. The reason is because.

And this is just one of many ngos that have been participating in this kind of a biggest activist effort. There is a perception among, let's just say, is the left that elan's, quote, free speed, which is bad for people. IT is dangerous.

Uh, he is going to lead, I think, the real reason to a trump Victory so there is an effort to punish h him and until he relents and caves in and adopt the same speech coast that mark sucker berg has adopted and that twitter had before he took over over I will say this broadly cross tech. There's spent a thin of that. Things are much Better than they were two years ago.

But we're also not deeping an election in my senses. As we get closer to the election, all of the companies are going to reap t the speech codes and there's just a question of whether or not that will happen on you know twitter slash x 点 com。 So uh first before we get them to the el uh verse elon dramas, what IT means, the ng stuff, some background on the eighty defamation .

league ever go yes so um the ado um has its one of these organizations that sort of seen as like an of acceptance you can think others there's like glad they're like you know for the gay people um you have the southern poverty loss and and you have the A D L which um is a jewish civil rights organization, but they also uh monitor other types of hate as they say um but I think the perception that this is sort of a the event civil right organza is not really correct to look at their history. Um in ninety ninety three I came out that the A D L had um spent the last twenty years spying on american citizens all the way from sitting U S. Congresswomen to college kids um for a variety of things the most strange of which was um people who oppose south africa apart time, so they are keeping files like thousands of them on um all sorts of people who had attended anti part type protest had um congresspeople who had introduced legislation against um the expansions, legislation against south africa and they were selling this information to the south african government.

What is the because in general, IT is just a group that is that is like the glad but for jewish people it's they gone police content to make sure that it's not you know hate to the jew h people I think .

is kind of roughly that's perception of what they do. Um I would argue that the ago was very mercenary um and they have traditionally had a lot of connections to foreign governments. For example turkey. If you go to their website for their um courage to care award um you'll find that for two thousand and IT goes from two thousand and four D A two thousand and six is missing two thousand and five because that's the year that they gave that award to reach of arta who's the president of turkey and that is become a dictator theyve take IT off um he was also denied the armenian uh genocide which is like the sand position and turkey and in two thousand and seven year actually bobbed um some would say for legal reasons, I am not going to say on behalf of the turkish government but some people might say that um to stop a congressional resolution recognizing the armenian genocide the fact that they love against IT is known um the precise reasons are unknown but people can train their own conclusions um I I think that some of IT is especially during the tenure of their old a boss uh brahm foxman. I think that IT was political connections, that he had a road that was behind a lot this but I think there is something ideological about IT the sense that maybe .

you know um well so .

maybe somehow we recognize the armenian genocide IT takes away from you know the hole being this uh sort of unequipped event that you know nothing else can be compared to .

that will say that IT seems that there is broad contempt for the organization growing among jewish certain y writers on tablet from entire free robust series on all of the different ways in which the group is kind of lost. They reframing is like lost its way. That's kind of my read to is that they use to be a group that deep care really a lot about the jewish image in american press, thinking that like this is going to lead in some way to violence and maybe IT did in in certain places.

Um 我 certainly before but like it's certainly outside of amErica as um but I I think that that was kind of roughly the thing is like let's let's control the image of jewish people in amErica and and like not be violent and then now it's like it's just pretty much of the letting ng o at least that's you know that's a time what read there is this broader kind of ago thing and that I really want to talk about the way that we are a country in which you have a right to say whatever you want。 Kind of a big part of would say that is maybe the one thing that people kind of roughly agree on, they don't necessarily know what that means. And so we'll say things like hate speech needs to be illegal, whatever.

But if you ask them how they think about free speech, they say they believe in IT. They just define IT in different ways now ah that's a recent phenomenon. I think it's becoming less popular on the left.

You there have been times in the past where it's been a little bit less popular on the right. I think about the virgin mary paintings um in new york city when I was a kid um that were super, super sive in left wing artists. We're creating these things at a lot of right Christian people but IT but in general, we're kind of bought into the rough idea um legally the government can do anything about speech that people don't like.

And so you know internet comes along, social media comes along. Now everybody speaking, lot of people are saying things that other people don't like because everybody saying something, um how do you control that? It's like what what do you do? The platforms are going to have to do the censorship because the government will never do IT.

And the only way that you can make that happen is by pressuring them through their advertisers. And um and that's what we've seen from you know the D L. Most recently.

This is specifically what you want is charging the way this is very soon. Then ironically, uh, the entire is being sued for defamation. Potentially we have to kind of follow the lawsuit still kind of ongoing.

Uh, and then we talked previously about the center of canner in digital hate, which is a sort of invented ago that is intensively, you know, researching, uh, hate speech online again, creating fake study, sending into the activist press that hates the concept of free speech right now online under each one specifically and using that to scare away money and punish the platform. Unions already said they are sixty percent down with american advertisers for where they were before he took over over all because of this. And uh, it's a pretty big issue. This is a way that you create and the fact of sort of censorship online and you know completely the unelected powers, I think very huge proper .

yeah it'll released statistics to I can't remember if there's a uh syratech al hated the ideal that released these I was reading on the other day they are saying that oh uh increase use of uh the end words reason by this much increase use of a slams against gay men have released as much and I like, okay. Well, I think a lot of that might also be people like the only people I ever see post on twitter. R, G, so I thought, so I been liberated that, you know.

a little man, I don't want to drag him into this right now. He said at queen of mine is a writer's jewish. He said that he saw he'd been seeing a lot more. He's a left wing guys so he's already for now into the elon speech ideas and sort of credit elon with a Spike in eight images among or I don't see I don't know what anyone is talking about. I don't see this stuff and um I I wonder if this is i'm not like clicking shit.

I if you IT is the algorithm has become much more tiktok like I will say the things that you look at or engage with even a little bit or pumped into your feed. Um I wonder if that's what's happening. I don't know. Let you have any what is what do you making of uh, the speech question generally maybe or .

the yeah I mean, it's it's such a it's such a tRicky, tRicky line to walk as well because I mean, I I actually have noticed um like on my burning man post I did notice one person made like you know a comment on my partner who is jewish you know a negative comment I was I can I have not seen that before so I don't know if that's one data point but at the same time have I been looking for IT? No do I engage with IT ever although that said, I mean I will actually go I mean I did go track on that user because also like the focus is what focus on with this person you know um I so I don't know it's it's incredibly hard to measure um that said, I hate the idea that anyone, whether it's N N G O, whether it's an individual who owns a platform or you know their team of sn, can control what isn't what isn't speech you know IT is IT allowable speech because I mean i'm still reeling off the back of of covet where like just they do to the degree of um censorship around legitimate solutions to the problem was so was so insane and there was such a like mono monoculture about what is allowed to be said like you couldn't discuss that like the the the overuse of like the fact that they were forcing you know a Mandating vaccines on Young people where the race benefit was very not you know very unclear seems to correct or you know I say this is a accent ated person um but you know it's like those after seeing just how bad the censorship can go in in an unhealthy direction, which then create A A backlash which is even worse than the first thing. You I come away from that going and we shouldn't be controlling speech but at the same time they are they is gene like they still somehow is genuine antisemitic is about the like as I you know so it's like I I just know know i'm not denying yeah definitely .

know that that exist and wouldn't be I know that that exist somewhere online. I just haven't seeing IT and I agree with. This is I think what i'm reacting to is what you're reacting to, which is I know where they're trying to take this and I don't want that and I will I have to fight against that is specifically the guy in charge of the al is in a clip where he like he's going through defending the concept of speech controls and uh, he compares anti actors to I S in in the clip he's rippling off the things that are just skill beyond the pale and it's like, see, this is what we're talking about.

You're producing things that we all agree are and then your your including things that we need to be able to debate and of course, anti backs that phrase note that word no longer means like I am opposed to all vaccines, which by the way, even if you were, you should be lowed to talk about that. In my opinion, i'm not at all i'm a what backs me up, but like you should be able to discuss that. They are talking about people who are opposed to vaccine Mandates, COVID vaccine dates, that is, that is how the word was applied a couple years ago and we cannot live in a world where that is the stuff that's being being banned as me saying, hey, wait and I don't want to be forcibly vaccinated. That's terrifying to me that is some authority, an like prison country shit and um and we ve got like we got to resist IT .

and and what you go too hard to and I feel like that also makes things worse for the people you're sensibly trying to protect. Like is a little bit more stream example, but brazil recently past uh rule I guess a judge rule that people can be thrown into jail for saying homework export and like I can't imagine like a worst thing for gay people because then you're turning just like casual homophone into political prisoners essentially um and so this just like feeding power of the cause and I think like you obviously like there are certain things that you shouldn't be able to say online. But I think when you become overseas um IT gives the impression that there is like this vast conspiracy against you know x group of like casual, bigger, whatever that can then turn like x experience a casual and he so either whatever into like a fob not right.

So yeah they they just they don't think about the second order order effects. They just pay out to the thing, right? It's like the short time effect all this part that a bad thing. It's think about, you know, if you turn someone who was mild into, basically you yeah, as you say, like a political, political prisoner, the backache is going to be so much worse. Because then the Jenny, when gonna get people who are in the right now of lining with the cause, and that's that's even .

was on the narrow gage apple. We actually have data to support this in america, which is here for years, last last eight, five years, we've lived in a world that up until maybe a year ago, was increasingly some serious on day lesbian but really trans issues um and then the trends sort of censorship thing has had 的 an impact on the entire rest of the alphabet。 Let's say you just look at pulling data on acceptance of things like gay relationships.

Are gay marriages down, gay relationships? The concept of, like, gay acceptance is down among all age groups, including Young people. That is, for someone whose I grew up, IT is only gotten Better every single year of my life.

IT is really, really a big deal. That IT is gone worse by the numbers has gone work like i'm not saying i'm like stared to be, you know, out there holding hands with my boyfriend. I'm saying that IT is literally worse.

We know that it's worse. We know that people's perceptions are worse. And how could they not be? My perception is worse.

I look at this crazy shit that I can, and I was a lot of to talk about IT. I'm mad. I like that is that makes me, that makes me, I can totally emphasize with where people are coming from.

But there is the second order effect IT. IT is a bitch but still that having been said, it's like still not as scary me as as the medical stuff um and uh I think is a huge problem. Of course the media takes IT as U S, E, O.

I'm going to see the hat. L the los Angeles times refer to that as the single most enthusiastic comment by a public figure in one hundred years. This is crazy because his river pointed out in her slash title yesterday, tony west was out here and supporting adou hiller. Like a year ago, he was saying relatively .

nice .

things for maybe I want to hear what to learn the last .

time of years exactly.

Yeah yeah metis m before hitler r too like like in the and he was like americans where every all the amErica was IT was anti sites washing popham like the history of anti semitism is real and long. And like the fact that ever saying i'm going to see the A D L, which tablet magazine is out of here attacking every single day is the thematic thing that's ever said that that's so crazy. It's predictable in an information work, which is what this is.

And and because I think people just it's it's the same thing with like black lives matter, right? It's when these organizations use such a good branding term that they become synonymous with the actual principle and that all people need to realises that these organza on they might be aligned. Sometimes they could be, again, either a so gna or completely anti correlated.

But like how would you be against blood? You are course black lives matter so you are against black yeah you know if you criticize the organization black life matter races, it's like, no, I don't see that organization as the actual course like maybe that's what we should actually have a ban on IT. So you are not allowed to name your organization after the principle itself that if .

we do something that we create very strong speech rules, right, like three speeches is done, but we're not going to ban work. We're going to weirdest rules ever and you have to kind of navigate that. I would be interested.

do you have to put T M after IT? You're like you about you know B L M, T M or bm. The actual principle, like thousand of people do you know any day, is kind of this band switch thing that then these organizations do is like, oh, europe, if you're against us and you're against the schools, I can fuck you.

No, no, i'm against what you're doing right now. But I actually agree with your cause. You know.

I think part of that something about this is just very simple, which is is the the information work component of this that the media that is engaging, of course, they are going to come after for elon. The only time is mad for a couple of reasons. One there they want money and they they see social media, generally speaking, is where the money is.

This is what's leading to all the policy around the world that is forcing these companies to give publishers money to, uh, this is a very the censorship stuff is a very popular opinion on the sort of press left right now, which dominates the entire media ecosystem. So they're going to go after him. Uh, they're going to say this.

He he is the biggest threat to them. He represents elan is the bigger threat to them in their cause of censorship online. He represents, uh the first example we have of a huge tech guy over the last five years who's really strongly and I would say to the sense successfully resisted ah this push now this big, this sarod.

So I mean that said, I do think IT is worth pointing out that I think IT on himself has too much power um he you know he's just one person. He is far from perfect um and like if he is not careful, he can go too far in a different direction and that itself is is a problem that needs to be examined. So there is some truth to the the general point.

It's like a too much power in anyone's person hand. Anyone's person hands is a problem. How do we build our systems so that they are robust to not to to the winds of material people in general?

How much before congress is sort of second appearance when he kind of reemerged as like a very polished looking wizard um and laid down he was behind that there was like a bitcoin clock behind him and he was like laying dose of like freedom, like print freedom oriented principles one after another he said someone was like, should we be able to stop you from publishing X, Y? He said, no, you should not have.

I don't believe that you should have that power. I don't believe anyone, myself included, should have that power and I think that he to, I think that jack is the only person i've seen to publicly really scrapple with this unique power that now exists in the world and uh and to fear, respect, IT and the best that he could. And I think he really believed that iran would be Better than him and he really believed jack really believed that he felt in in his use of that power over the course of especially the election.

And um yeah, it's a it's it's a question that is opening this is going to get I think things are a lot worse than me. Election IT does bring us the media though in the interesting way that they they have just almost transparently wage information war in the buck in crinisus ever and uh this reminds me of the time time just released its A I like one hundred most influential people in A I list artificial intelligence list um live you seem that you got some thoughts on that before we start filming. What does your take just like roughly I saw um you know very lovely looking photo all sorts of people none of them I recognized at all other evident like five that I recognized, uh, what are you? What are .

your thoughts? I mean, I guess I just have a general like this taste for these these lists in the first place because it's like, who are the people at time? And don't get me wrong, I think time i've been impressed with time general like platforming, particularly of the like some of the singer arguments about like A I safety or like that's call IT ai awareness of risk that perhaps other other places haven't been.

That said, just like when these these lists do have real life impact, when someone decides these are the most one hundred influential people, and invariably they then miss people off or two people who just happen to be, who not happened to have written a blogger at the right time. Mark Andrea, know on the list that are actually probably don't deserve to be on the it's it's annoying because that, that then set the tones for the next few years. They're the ones who we're going to get caught on to speak with conference or whatever whatever. So you know again, it's sort of like face of this problem of like ultimately there is these like centralized powers that um have real world impacts, even though they don't necessarily have the the chopped to to call that. I know you know the thing they are just annoyed me with this list like there are people on there probably shouldn't be and there are a lot of people missed off who should be even in the top ten and aren't included perhaps that because they wanted to stay on below ground I don't know um but yeah IT is the general idea that anyone knows how to rank um people of such such such a as major as A I and also how U S A centric IT is that is like so many british people or like foreign that aren't included that should be well i'm fine .

with the U S centric mature of IT but I think it's really crazy that time thinks that they are the ones that we're going to create this list. It's artificial intelligence is is very for most of my memory, IT was a ish very tightened group of people working on something that most stock was. Science stationed and bottle lines are stupid. Um there are important .

people .

in in that space. I, as someone who is definitely closer to IT in time magazine, would never even dare be so arrogant, is to think that I was going to list the most one hundred important people in that group. It's crazy.

I ouldn't even knew that for something that I do myself, which is right. It's just like a tremendous urgence. But as you mentioned, IT does have an impact.

This is what time is attempting to do here. And they included some people who you would obviously have to include. Some movement is the one that comes to mind, right? You're running. Open eye is the most important AI company.

I believe he said. Is that minus .

there as well?

Incredibly .

obvious one, important one, yes. But then what you do is you include people like tin, Deborah and the the purpose of that timid is who I spoken about quite a lot of, were a piece about her called robots, or racist. You should check IT out if you want to.

Full, deep dive on who this woman is. This is a woman who is, he does not work on the action, is not in an engineer, to the best of my knowledge, maybe, maybe he is a book engineer is not what her job is. Now SHE researches like A I safety SHE calls IT. No, no, no.

no. He would be matter you for saying that SHE researches A I ethics, which for some reason SHE doesn't like A I safety, which makes no sense to me because it's funny.

because I saw her go. A I ethic is he is like, where did this come from? It's like, where is that come from? You talk about A I ethics all the time, but the point is SHE is someone who believes genuinely, I don't about genuinely, I actually don't think genuinely.

But her argument that is entirely parodied in the press is that the people working on A I right now are genuinely interested in genocide, that this these things are being built in such a way that they will lead inevitably to genocide. There are White to premises. And I IT sounds crazy, because this is a crazy thing to say, allah.

But I promise you that this is her argument. Please check out the peace read, exact are analyzed. Her entire, I washed her whole as stupid talk on this thing.

Um SHE really believes this. This is a person. This is what hurt SHE does. This a woman who was a SHE SHE quick google SHE says that he was fired. SHE actually resigned, and they accepted her resignation wisely um and uh and that's kind of that what was her claim to vae SHE worked to the place that didn't do really much at all um and uh got lapped by open eye and now he wants to see at the table to talk about how the stuff should be regulated, which is really crazy. Places like time elevate voices like that as a weapon against the technology industry.

And no live you have very complicated uh the use here probably because you you study x risk in your super uh of the belief that this is downing to kill us all. Potentially no。 okay. So I don't want to put words in your mouth, but IT seems like you probably are more into straight regulation generally speaking on and maybe I just actually give you that take you what you what do you kind of think about that right there?

Yeah I mean, I want to say I feel very almost by ponder on the topic of A I like some days, you know, when I have having conversations with people who are like. More on the acceleration is side um but are actually thinking about the problems probably i'm like, okay, where actually going to be alright because these these guys are talking about this and then I speak to ones who are pouring money in and literally don't understand the principles at all.

For example, not to pick on him, but he blocked me on twitter after I criticized him for a second so I feel free to, uh is mark and reason and who like breathing is the boat N A I and then rates write one blog saying how oh uh intelligence doesn't equal control. We shouldn't be worried about IT and like but made much arguments he clearly doesn't understand the concept at all. Um goes and gets put on the list um and is basically right now there is there is the actual like race to develop A I is completely out of control.

So that might be OK if we somehow figure out alignment in time to you know as as this a this as this wheel turns faster, faster. Because as way IT goes, the more more progresses is made, the faster will get. But there there is no there is effectively no cause button right now.

There's a lot of discussion of like how we could build one and so but that that doesn't exist. So all the while that does not exist um and all the while that bad actors exist in the world, people who would use technologies for their own ends. Um then I think we are under you, insufficiently prepared for the types of risks are going to be emerging from my eyes.

So that's why I would technically fall into the AI safety. I think that, that is more collected than progress. That said, I think A I we need in many ways to solve some of our big corporation problems .

like so I think just to fend mark for a second, I don't end because the licence is like crazy, like just cut clown world should not have happened. Like control all, delete the list, like with the list of the tall, so bad. marketing。

I think that he is in a place where he is experiences some of what i've experience from A I safety people, which is just I think maybe you were caught up and I don't know what happened there up, but I know what would happen with me like i'd become very sensitive to the r sixty people because they come after you like you're an idiot and like you've never thought of anything and like they're the only people who have ever thought of this issue in the entire world as if there are people working on this right now. We're actually working on if you don't agree with them. I think it's just it's very complicated.

I understand that it's complicated. Um I I think that there is something from allied costs where I became more on this and not on the acceleration where where I took a harder line on the safety people is when the laser cosy came out and made that comment do that interviewer, he made that comment about bombing the data centers, which I know there we can cripple all day on the exact face phrasing of that and what was really meant. But it's like I don't want to ever be in a place where we're talking about bombing data centres.

And I think that it's like at that point I thought I wasn't into the violence of the rhetoric IT was just the hysteria of the rhetoric and the kind of surreal nature of IT IT didn't feel like we were grounded in the real conversation anymore. IT felt like we were talking about science fiction. And I know that he was a science fiction writer.

I'm a science fiction writer. Um that kind of stuff really bothers me and probably what's happening there is people react and I had friends of mine, not you, but I maybe you you've been in my mentioned on this this issue actually but but even Jeffery follow another one. You like I like a lot and like he comes in hard on this issue um .

IT feels I I can see where .

a quick block maybe could could come from there.

Well, okay, but I didn't. I I just pointed out like these arguments making a sense .

and I can pull up .

the exactly and we can you sure I don't know. But I was like, I was shocked that he blocked me because I wasn't IT wasn't, you know, I IT was okay more anyway, where to start so I I don't know that was so the alias the only as a thing, I I not need to defend the alias A I don't agree with some of his conclusions. I sadly disagree with the methodology he uses to discuss some of these things.

Um so I don't like that he is considered like the leader of a safety um because it's wrong. I think there far Better to like someone like a conney. For example, they check out conney go go.

Doesn't his debate with George hot, which is one the best thing that i've ever seen, where is like the rock? The steel man for the acceleration is the steel man for safety. And IT goes back and forth, if people actually want to understand the tension of the issue, go watch that.

Because those are two brilliant people having a really good faith discussion. And like, truly, and you know, i'll leave you up to you, do you do decide who wins? Who loses? Everyone wins as a classic win win discussion.

So you know, I think first of all, there there's that. But that said, I would what annoys me about like people quoting 哦 and he said, I said we should be bombing data centres. He was talking a in the hypothetical.

So there was that, yes, he was. He was saying, if in in o but okay, would you okay, let's say, let's say, I some, you know, kim john n has developed a pathogen that is as contained, as covered and as deadly as ebola. We might need to go and bomb a his labs. Would you or would you not be in principle .

against that?

Say .

no, kid lizer said he was talking about a treaty. If we have a treaty to not be doing A I research and someone breaks the treaty, you would have to bomb the data centers that's not comparable to like a concrete actual .

because you don't say you don't you?

Yes, if there is, if if I can, terminator evolved on on on an island and they're like, we can only stop that if we bomb IT, that would have been a very different conversation than, like, there are these nerds who refused to listen to our international treaty. Better kill them that that's like that that you do not want to tell them. So I don't want to and but no.

you know no Better. I will point out one thing, like is that you did once upon a time a few years ago we had a little disagreement where you were like, I don't believe that these you know A I safety people actually think this is A A genuine threat because if IT was, they would be talking about violence and they're not so now when they do go and talk about a thing of violence, you're now mocking them for that. So is a yeah .

lies where I believe, no I so that change, I believe that he believes IT. That doesn't mean that I justify the violence. And I said by what I said, most of these people, I don't think really believe that.

I think it's too abstracted a question I do believe he does. And i'm glad you brought that up because I think it's like one of the smarter things that I ve said. I this is like, very obviously you are lying and this is a great argument like .

why that's really not ying, really not lying. And I I don't know.

can now make great they really believe IT and they have to be stopped because I don't want to live in that world.

okay. Well, as always, you have really, really robust measures to be able to completely know that you can stop.

No, you to explain to me why I have to start bombing like i'm not the one who's recommending I don't .

think not recommending either.

I'm saying like he's got to get Better art. I needed to come up with all these we're crazy arguments that can prove you know for sure that think he has to prove beyond reason totally that that the people potentially need to die to stop this thing from that.

And that's why I disagree with what he said because I think the arab is a way too too high to ever justify, at least at present, to justify any any major, major tax things. Which is why, from my perspective, I think we need to be talking more about like for example, even as having discussions about treaties or at least having some kind of like saying measures of when systems are starting to get so powerful that we may not be able to control. How do you sorry.

good. I was going to say when the issue with the treat, like how effective treatments be, really because I think that would be difficult to get actors who would I would potentially do the most destructive stuff. Russia, china, north korea like this takes like north korea on to sign on to these treaties.

I mean, if it's in Bobby science, I am sure whatever, but you know the other ones, but they're not going to do IT anyway, probably. So I don't know how effective that would be if we're really worried about AI terrorism or whatever from states. Well, if nothing else.

that would start a means IT would create a norm of paying attention to when people are building this. Because right now it's just anything goes. It's like really anything goes. Anyone who can like no one who appreciates the doll lose sufficiently, like.

see you went inspectors like nuclear inspectors that go into like russia and cabinet toria like .

what I like that. Now, of course they can defect. They can do all of things.

But right now we have nothing. We have literally nothing. You know, this is, this is like nineteen forty.

We've discovered how to split the atom. Well, that said, we had nothing. We had nothing to this beauty you want. IT worked out .

for us actually, to get to a place where where we at the bomb and other people didn't. I wonder. This is an, I don't know the end of this question, but a lot of the you you always see when he comes to the question of um international sort of sharing the information to be like on the question of safety and what not.

It's always the countries that are behind that are really, really excited about this um and I think it's because they see this chance at getting more information. And uh, I think they are probably correctly perceive us to be in a kind of A I arms raised the moment. How do you think about that? There is an international piece that concerns me, like I just in a foreign policy.

Absolutely no. I think it's A A A huge concern. And I also get a huge concern that anyone know that like power becomes too centralized that also fucking terrifying like everything yeah and the censorship .

conversation we were having because now you're talking thing that controlled everything yeah don't be this is also maybe why I keep shutting down because I like I don't see I do not see a um I I do not see a medicine that is that is not really, really, really toxic in itself. This is nick boston in his book toxic about his. His suggestions are chilling their catharina arian to stop a and um I don't I just don't want to live in that world and so I just want to choose between here right .

exactly and it's a Daniel's slatin gg to cause IT I don't if you have seen him, I did a lunch t with him on like A I and the psychology problem I was called in molecules basically like the arms race dynamic um well like well if I don't do IT, then those guys are going to do IT.

Why might to do IT anyway? Basically this like game therefore drivers that like essentially makes everyone trapped in this situation where no one wants a bad thing to happen. But IT ends up happening anyway because um it's really hard to align um and he talks about this need for like some kind of third gravitational attraction because right now we have these stuck seemingly two parts.

We either go down the light of V D D centralized no rules anche route, which will make you know, leave IT like things open to bad actors. You again, like especially when you combine A A I was synthetic biology, you're gonna be seeing like pathogen s we'd never imagined before. And like this becomes more more democratized til like any idiot would basically a few thousand dollars and and a little lab they can build in their garage.

In theory, you kill millions of people um or in the other direction you have more more centralized control which leads vulnerable to like to rani forever. All of these these are horrible options and IT seems like those are the only to work with either one or the other. We need to. I know what IT looks like, but some kind of like third, don't like a tractor that minimize both risks and maximes the best outcomes of those I think about majority in all of .

this sort of um when I talked interviewed drives a while back and he had just looked at the day that I was in reviewing her the day before that he was just getting off of this sort of I want to call IT the prefer was a hack bon and sort of I can dream the fun where he was working with majority people to create different potential utopia images images of what the you toh utopian society could actually look like um which is very cold to me the center of powers that I think are really interesting could we use the A I to help us conceive of a new safety AI order? Do we can need the AI to help us solve the AI problem?

Yes, IT seems like IT, and that's thus the chicken in ae situation we are in in many ways like I don't see IT away for us to navigate. Although like increasing the interrelated crisis, we have you know like supply and chain issues coming from climate change, which is coming from abb aba, we need A I to solve many of these.

But at the same time, the more powerful of A I systems we build are the more potential that offer them to either fall into the wrong hands or you know, some kind of action happen and so on. And mid journey is an interesting example because IT is likes it's such A I know he like IT feels like he David is like touched on something where it's like i'm gonna timide for beauty yes, as as as a shared value and it's something that everyone seemingly like not their head to. There's another .

project 是的。 And IT is so different. It's also funny that he escaped most of the conversation about safety because it's not words. It's yeah beautiful is .

and as there's is another team who I have charted to a little bit who like they had the idea of like getting as many people from, again, as many diverse backwards as possible to like make, to just like input little stories of meaningfulness like moments in their in in their life in the last day or the last week or the last year that felt meaningful.

You know, few hundred words write IT down and add that to a data base of basically like human meaning and then maybe because start training and A I on that data set. So it's not just that into that which has everything from like really caught IT to like horrific nazis and other stuff. No, let's do stuff on. Like what people like these like uniquely human things that we feel meaningful that that contains is like wisdom of humanity and let's art trading IT. Or that I think they going to call .

themselves why Z I, that's direction, which import group communities, current ideas and being intentional about what you want to build and create things like this IT is sort of time back to an earlier concept in this conversation. We were talking about the incentives of social media and what IT drives IT was so obvious in the A I safety conversation. Um let's say I think he was a handful a months ago.

Um you had gary Marcus open letter that was published. I don't believe the lazer to coffee was on. He might have been, but he then had that S A um uh I think he was on IT and then he had his S A about canada.

S what not um tim ever goes after both of them. And I was surprised at first because I saw gary and aliza as um. Two of the most ferocious critics of this stuff out there and he is one of them as well.

They critical in different ways but they are both very, very, very aggressive in their um in their torc attacks. They are thrown out there and then IT occur to me that and I was like, wish n't to tip timid on the sort of the letter, wish you sign your name to sort of do regulation. And whenever they're all in competition with each other for attention and they all want the same thing they all want to be, they're all on that list.

I don't have gary markets and probably not, which is hilarious. Um but the other two are they want to be they want to be in that like top fot they want the attention, our our social media incentivises this kind of behavior. And so of course they are seeing extreme things because how else are they going? Of course it's like bomb.

The data center is first. The AI genocide is coming on purpose. Sam 要 and specifically wants to do IT。 And how was sult, by the way, to say that to a jewish son? But that is that is like that that's the that's the frame um they have to compete within that frame. And I think until we figure out.

I will point out that there's only one party in that group that you mentioned that actually going after the others SHE, whose name begins with tea I was a shocked as you are also like they were.

Um I mean I guess because to be fair, that is like a finite amount of like funding that can go into essentially you know a research or you know so slow down dollars effectively um which is what they all kind of calling for, right? You know like let's let's slow this down or like let's let's rutlidge this. There is a finite pool of that.

And so if he sees like the sort of the existent al risk concern people getting a lot of dollars, then that means you know they agree with with bias people are getting less. Um I don't think that strictly true. I mean, I think both areas are I think all areas are horribly underfunded.

Um be personally I do I even think I can't stand her methods um in the way he goes about IT in such a zero some way. But I do think you just still has some kind of point that that I think any bias that exists is you know as systems become more careful is going to become more more amplified till IT does actually become a problem. So I think that should also be looked into. But the point is it's like it's not a competition um and like ultimately the the the race dynamic, this moloch monster is by far running the show and is so powerful that's really what everyone is be talking about and know not even individual v or whoever. Um last question .

is a difficult one impossible almost. So if you guys don't have in this, I mean, how do you create a more curated experience online that allows for more productive conversations and art and you know collaboration and things like that because he does feel really hard. You know like you, you're up against title forces here.

I don't know if you can, but I do think personally I think that a vast majority of like censorship has to go away. I I don't think that if if you go back .

to like even like .

early to twenty ten, you have um march docker berg saying like i'm jewish but i'm going to about helicopter now on facebook because of Victory speech as like been told memory hold like we really not that far away from that sort of minds dominating and tap in social media and I think that we do have to we have to go back to where you know, unless someone is being like threatened in a very specific like violent way, you kind of have to let the ref of in because eventually they will tire themselves out is the thing I I believe um I think that .

too much creation .

might actually be the problem. I feel good when you everything's becomes incredibly curated. I mean, I guess it's fine for instagram mar whatever you just want to look at like dogs or hot people or whatever all day. But if you want actually if actually having conversations, I don't think curation is actually really something you should be looking forward.

I I just wanted know why time left off the the most important person in A I like unbelievable oversight, jo didier put him on his opinion, on everything he could have. He could sort of this conversation out from the start you live in sona would have been completely an alignment here if we just had to rule jole solve the it's it's an .

intonation problem that seems but I think we need to think more about like this tyranny metrics um where if you are optimising for just one narrow thing then you are leaving yourself vulnerable to basically being alive. You know it's like you need we need to find a Better way to capture all of the values same as like you know like something like carbon credit is on to internalize the .

exchange of these like competitive .

um full profit cut competitive games that are going on between these companies that make us end up optimising for things like outrage instead of joy um or you black and way thinking instead of nuances. So anything they can like somehow incapable ate nuances and a wider, a wider band of metrics into into the games that are going on online and would be a good thing. How the fuck we do that?

I have no idea. Well, maybe on the next spot, thank you guys for make a lip for drawing us today.

Thank you again.

I love to say this joke. I got to saying eventually you have have no choice to be here, the internet little guys. I just.