Why a MAGA influencer turned on Trump
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That was another huge thing that really opened my eyes and made me realize that, hey, if I've been in spaces of people who are reporting Russian propaganda, I could be radicalizing myself without even knowing. The 2024 election was undeniably the influencer election. MAGA content creators, podcasters, and other independent media played a crucial role in securing Trump's victory. And with Trump in power, these influencers are set to play an even larger role in his administration. One Trump advisor recently talked about replacing all the reporters in the press briefing room with influencers.

Clarkson Lawson is one such influencer. Let me tell you why I vote Republican as a gay man. He amassed nearly 850,000 followers on TikTok and over 30 million likes by posting pro-Trump videos on a range of topics. Somebody just tried to...

Trump. Clearly it was a liberal that attempted it because they missed. If you're voting for Biden after that debate, you have to really hate Trump. But recently Clarkson had a change of heart. In a YouTube video titled, Why I Left MAGA, I Regret My Vote, he talks about how he no longer has faith in Donald Trump and the MAGA movement. Today, I'm talking to Lawson about MAGA internet and what happens when a pro-Trump influencer pivots. Clarkson, welcome to Power User. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Okay, so Clarkson, you started

posting content back in 2021, primarily on TikTok, but I know you've expanded onto tons of other platforms. Talk to me about the type of content you were posting back then. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, I think in 2021, we were all feeling politically charged by COVID, BLM, everything that was going on, and even Donald Trump, you know, claiming the election was stolen. So back then, I was very politically charged, and I took it upon myself to speak on the issues that I felt under were being underrepresented in the media, especially as a gay man, I've always tended to lean a little bit right. But

I'm more on the moderate side, but when it comes to economics, I tend to support Republicans. And I saw that my voice was not being shared, that people were casting all gay men like a monolith. They were casting Republicans or Republican-leaning people in a bad light. So I wanted to be a voice for the voiceless, and that's what I did. So you're making sort of pro-Trump content. I think you were at Mar-a-Lago at one point. Talk to me about being part of this conservative online ecosystem. Yeah.

I was talking about a range of subjects. You know, I would have articles, probably one of yours at some point in the background of my video, talking about my commentary. I would talk about LGBT issues. I would talk about cultural issues. And I think that just talking about all of these different subjects while also being an outspoken Trump supporter really puts you in this

it pivots you in this corner as, you know, a MAGA creator. And at the time, you know, I really had no problem with that. And I was enjoying sharing my opinions on all of these different subjects. What initially drew you to support Trump and the MAGA movement?

Were you always a Republican? My immediate family has always been Republican. I did grow up watching Fox News with my dad in the mornings. But then, you know, my extended family is very classically liberal. But, you know, I'm very anti-establishment. One would say I have a problem with authority, and I think that...

Trump's ability to articulate that feeling of being anti-establishment, it really resonated with me in 2016 and 2020. And I think that's what initially pulled me to him, in addition to the fact that I already lean a little bit right on most issues. So because we had that in common and he was hitting those anti-establishment points, it really was like the perfect present of a politician.

when it came to me choosing who to vote for. - How did your involvement with the sort of MAGA internet and these pro-Trump communities shape your life? - It really changed a lot. At the beginning, you know, I was just schizophrenically ranting to my phone. But after I started to get the views and, you know, I moved to Florida, well, I moved to Tampa, Florida, I found myself just

creating a whole community of like-minded creators and like-minded people who were drawn to me and I was drawn to them. And I've made great friends because of it. There's great people involved in the movement, but it really did change the types of

situations that I put myself in and the people that are involved in them. Well, you also started to get more online attention, more opportunities. Can you tell me about when you first got your first brand deal? I think you started to make money off of this, right? Yeah. So, I mean, TikTok has a creator program. So if your video goes viral and it's longer than a minute, you make money off of that, which I'm very thankful to be

to be a part of. My first brand deal wasn't until last year because I've always been super controversial so most brands are turned off by me anyways. My first brand deal was like a free mattress that they just gifted me so I'm still using it honestly it's my I've got great lumbar support but I think my first

paid brand deal was with a friend of mine who is who was a MAGA influencer and actually created his own company. And he's like, Hey, I want to support you. Can you advertise my company? And and that's really the only paid brand deal minus a few other ones here and there. You also got sort of sucked up into this pro Trump or right wing sort of creator ecosystem. Can you talk about Turning Point USA and the role that it played? I know that you, I think,

attended some of their events or something, but tell me about your involvement with them. Yeah. So I've never officially worked with turning point. However, they, they invited me to their events as a special guest and they have these events, you know, two, three times a year. So I would go out to those events and connect with other creators. We do collabs. What are these events like? These are for conservative content creators, right? Especially Gen Z. Yeah. And also, you know, just kind of fans of conservatism, you know, they'd have big speakers. Donald Trump was just at their last one, uh,

And people who are really involved in the political atmosphere, whether you're a spectator or a creator, these events are more like a huge hype event for it. So all your different creators that you follow are going to be there and then these big politicians. So I would go to them, connect with other creators,

listen to other people speak. And I'm very thankful that that turning point invited me to these events because a lot of opportunities came from it. So after years of kind of posting this sort of content on the internet, you came out with a video that definitely went viral, I would say. I saw a lot of people talking about it. And you talked about kind of going to vote and having this crisis and ultimately kind of leaving the MAGA movement.

I'm sure you all are confused on what policies actually deterred me from voting for Donald Trump in 2024. So let's get into it. When did you start to sort of question the ideology that you had been promoting? I would say it started about six to eight months ago when RFK got into the race. He kind of opened the door for me to listen to more liberal talking points because he is traditionally liberal. And

I was starting to get a little bit disenfranchised by the MAGA movement because I was starting to see the foundation shake a bit on the principles that they stood for. So when RFK ran as an independent, that's when I started listening to liberal commentators because I wanted to hear the other side.

And I, surprisingly enough, whenever I would formulate my opinion on a story, I would watch people like Rachel Maddow or Joy Reid, who are the radicals on the other side, because I know that I'm in an echo chamber, so I'm also hearing radicals. So what that did was it made me see through the BS and actually find the truth in a lot of these stories by forcefully exposing myself to directly opposing content.

I'm just dying over the fact that you say you're de-radicalized by someone like Rachel Maddow or Joy Reid. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? What was your media consumption patterns like initially?

like while you were in this sort of pro-Trump world and how did those media consumption habits shift as you sort of got out of it? I was listening to a lot of creators. I think a lot of conservative creators who form their opinions on things, people on TikTok who talk very quickly and come off like they know what they're talking about, but they don't. And I was also listening to news outlets like the Daily Wire. You know, I had their push notifications on. I was listening to their morning wire every morning just to get a rundown on what's going on in politics.

And once I started to see this shift and I started to be open to the other side, I realized how much of an echo chamber that I was sitting in. So I started listening to people like Mark Cuban, who became very vocal about politics. And all of my habits started to change once RFK, especially right after he dropped out of the race, because my shift to I was left not knowing who to support.

do I go back to Trump? Do I go to the other side? Now I'm just in the middle. So it forced me to really find different creators that come from a more moderate stance. Well, tell me about that. Where were you seeing these creators and did you sort of start to see them come up? Like as your sort of politics evolved, did you start to see more of that content on TikTok? Were you seeking out these people to find on Twitter, X, YouTube, other platforms? Yeah, I think that the algorithm is very intuitive.

So what happened with me is that I was starting to see through a lot of the propaganda on the right and therefore I stopped engaging with that content. So I started engaging with content that I'm like, whoa, that's a really good point. This is based in fact, this creator is actually explaining their opinion and it's solid. And I think that the algorithm naturally shifted me more to the middle so I could find even these smaller creators

Um, there's one on Tik TOK, which I think her name is like Sarah with a PhD. She's a, she's an economist and I follow her. She's not the biggest creator, but she knows what she's talking about. And there's so many small ones that whether or not you follow them, they might end up on your for you page that are doing great work. So I,

I didn't purposefully make the algorithm shift, but I'm very thankful that it did. I feel like there's so much moral panic around these algorithms and this idea that they're radicalizing everyone. I know YouTube did change their algorithm to sort of actually expose people to more varying viewpoints to not put people down these rabbit holes. Do you feel like the algorithm almost helped you escape the rabbit hole that you were in? I think the algorithm plays on what you want.

And most people want to feel like they're a part of something. They want to find a way to explain what's going on around them and all the tragedy that's happening in the world. So these extreme ideologies are very attractive to them because they give them comfort in assuming they know everything because it's not comfortable for people to admit that they don't know why things are happening, but they're happening anyway.

ways. So I don't think the algorithm is the problem. I think human nature is the problem, and it just plays on that. You also told me, I think last time we were talking about Twitter's community notes feature and how you started to sort of see community notes on conservative posts. Can you talk about that feature and how it maybe changed your perception of

the media that you were consuming? Yeah, the community notes feature is one of my favorite things because, you know, there was fact-checking a lot during 2020 and 2021, and a lot of that was great work, but a lot of it was faulty. So I think that that, especially to an anti-establishment group, can turn people off from actually looking for...

for the facts and stories, but because Community Notes involves more than just one biased organization, it's really opened my eyes. I see MAGA influencers saying that they're eating the cats and the dogs, and then you actually get links to that not being true. And if those weren't there, I don't know if I would have fallen for that misinformation. So I'm very thankful that that feature was adopted. I just hope that it can be adopted on other platforms or something similar to it.

You mentioned the like eating cats and dogs, the Haitian immigrants. I mean, that was such a big sort of viral media story that I think galvanized a lot of support for Trump. What other sort of big moments in the media also started to sort of shift your worldview? Well, the tenant media scandal was a really big one. And I know you've reported on that.

For people that don't know, I'll just explain it really quick. Basically, a bunch of these right-wing influencers, Tim Pool, Benny Johnson, and others were receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars from this Russia propaganda effort. And the Department of Justice ultimately investigated it. And yeah, I mean, Tim Pool, I think, was getting like $400,000 a month to produce his videos. Anyway, sorry, continue.

No, yeah. So that's exactly right. So I think that that scandal, especially because I've been in the spaces with a lot of these influencers, that opened my mind even more to the fact that, oh, wow, these people aren't doing this because this is what they believe in. For a lot of people, they don't have the character. They're not standing on truth. They're just selling out.

And I think that that really opened my eyes to begin questioning things a lot more. So then during the debate, the presidential debate, when Kamala Harris told something to the likes of Trump saying, you know, world leaders want you to be in power because you could be manipulated through flattery. That really stuck out to me.

As somebody who'd never listened to Kamala Harris, I always would take the other side when she said that. That stuck out to me because first of all, she was poking Trump's ego that entire debate and he was acting crazed. So clearly he's not this strong man who can keep himself composed. Second of all, Trump responds to her and says, oh, well, Putin just endorsed her and

We all know that that was just Putin trolling because if Putin really wanted her to be president, he would be paying Democrat influencers. So I think that that was another huge thing that really opened my eyes to the problems in the MAGA movement and made me realize that, hey, if I've been in spaces of people who are reporting Russian propaganda, I might need to put myself in other spaces because I could be radicalizing myself without even knowing it.

It's just so funny to hear you say all of this because it's like, first of all, it is true and it is disturbing. But also I feel like there was so much panic after the 2016 election from people like Rachel Maddow talking about Russia's influence and all of this stuff. And then it's sort of, I mean, I don't know how successful those propaganda efforts were, but as you said, like they did ultimately spend a lot of money with these sort of like influence campaigns. And I think it's really dubious also that so many of these right-wing creators were willing to accept propaganda

hundreds of thousands of dollars without any questions being asked? Like one plus one equals two. Um, that's all I'm going to say on it. So I don't get sued, but I just feel like it should raise the hairs on your arms a little bit. Just being okay with that. And you know, you're right. I mean, when they screamed Russia, Russia, Russia for so long, anytime that apologists and talks about Russia, I usually just turn the other cheek because I'm like, okay, okay, here we go again.

But this was different because, you know, it directly affected people in my space. And people like Lauren Chin, you know, I already had a problem with her because she was online on her YouTube channel saying that, you know, women shouldn't have the right to vote and women shouldn't share their opinions. I'm like, but that's literally what you do for your job. Like, it's blatantly hypocritical. So once I saw she was involved, of course, I'm like, OK, well, I've never really liked her. So let me actually look into this. And when I did, that's when the floodgates started to open and my mind started to shift a bit.

So talk to me about going to the voting booth back in November. You know, you were all prepared. I think you recorded this video in your car actually talking about it. But you were all prepared to vote for Donald Trump and then something changed. Can you kind of walk us through what happened?

So I was having this whole political shift and I changed my content before voting because I don't want to give the impression that I was still making pro-Trump content when I started going through this. Yeah. Talk to me about that, because I feel like you weren't openly not pro-Trump, but you stopped sort of like directly espousing his sort of stuff, right?

Yeah. So I started talking about like political optics or I would talk about a Trump policy that I don't necessarily agree with. I made a whole video with my whiteboard breaking down tariffs and how I disagree with Trump on tariffs. So I was never lying to my audience. I just wasn't

I didn't know what I was feeling. I didn't know if I was just burnt out. And these are just in the months up to the election, right? Correct, correct. About like six to eight months, I would say prior, my content started to change. But I didn't want to lie. I can't lie. So because in order to be creative, you have to base it in honesty. So that's why my content shifted.

And when I went to the voting booth, you know, I got my mail-in ballot. I circled Donald Trump's name for president. I circled a Republican for the House of Representatives and a Democrat for the Senate because I wanted there to be balance of power. I don't like when one side gets too much. And then I recorded a video.

And you can see in my eyes in this video that something is off. It should be insulting to all of us who are feeling this out that these candidates and the way they've ran their campaign is enough to win the most powerful position in the world. And I wanted people who felt like I did at the ballot box who were like, "I just don't know why I'm choosing this person," to get a little bit of solace in that video.

But in that video, my ballot said Donald Trump. So I walked in to drop it off and I just was looking at my ballot and I was like, something feels off. And I'm like, you can't not vote for this man because I can't lie. Like, I don't have that in my body. You built your brand around being conservative and pro-Trump. Right.

Right. So I knew the grifting allegations were going to come. I knew everything was going to happen. And I'm not going to lie. So I'm going to have to be honest about it at some point. But in an effort to not lie to my audience and not be called all of these names because I'm human and I've changed my opinions on things, I was lying to myself. So I asked them for a new ballot. And then I voted for Kamala Harris for president. And then I voted for a Republican in the House because if you take Trump out...

Republicans tend to be a little bit more fiscally conservative and then a Republican in the Senate. And it took me a little bit to come to terms with that after I left the ballot box. But I felt like I did the right thing by listening to myself rather than what everybody else wanted me to do. So you post this YouTube video, which I think went pretty viral. At least I saw it all over saying, you know, why I left ballot.

MAGA and sort of talking about this evolution. What was the response to that video like, especially from conservative internet? It's the left's response in 2020 that conservatives are copying. It's the most shocking thing to me, seeing the allegations that have come out about me, like entirely defamatory things from people I've never met before. And then, you know, people calling me a grifter. But I think the hardest part was that I tend to look at people through rose-colored glasses, I think.

And the hardest part was seeing not only a lot of these content creators that I've been in spaces with that I have routinely done things outside of the public eye for that, you know, just to be a good person and a good friend, not even stick up for my character. You know, they could have just came out and said, hey, I know Clark. I know he's losing money by posting this. I don't agree with him, but he's definitely not grifting or he's definitely not X, Y, Z. But not only did I not see that, a lot of these content creators started coming for me because it's a trending topic.

And I'm like, this is actually kind of crazy how quickly people can flip the switch. But you know, it happens in every industry. People who are ambitious, they don't really care who they step on to get a little bit higher and to get the next, you know, viral tweet or video. I mean, I feel like you were experiencing so much backlash, especially in these conservative dominated spaces, like on X or Rumble or even TikTok. Like did any of these creators like

reach out and try to build a bridge with you? I mean, did you, did anyone in the conservative movement say like, Hey, listen, I'm sorry, you're feeling a little disillusioned, but like, let me try to bring you back, you know, like, come on, come on back over to our side. Or was it like sort of very swift excommunication? You would think that's what they would do because I literally voted for Republicans in the house and Senate. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like I just went full blown liberal dim, like a

they're acting like I voted for Jill Stein, but do you think that they would try to like pull me back in and be like, "Hey, so this is X, Y, Z." But I got a text from creators specifically that I've worked with. I've got two creators reached out to me. Out of all the creators that I've worked with, two said, "Hey, are you okay?"

I don't agree with you, but I totally understand how you're feeling and I support you having an opinion. And that's, I've been in spaces of 50 to 100 different creators and I've also gotten nasty messages with them too. But yeah, no, it was, it's very shocking how intolerant this supposed big tent party has become if you don't support Donald Trump.

Well, talk to me about the audience as well, because you've cultivated this conservative audience for years now, and many of them discovered you through those original sort of extremely pro-Trump videos back in 2021. How did you go about managing this rebrand? And how have you managed the sort of backlash from your own audience? Not a lot of thought went into it, I'll be honest. So I wasn't really thinking about anything having to do with like a rebrand or things of that nature. I just...

wanted to be honest. And I know that being honest is a key part of content creation and being authentic as that. So when I realized that, no, this feeling isn't just me being burnt out by politics. I didn't just make a weird mistake at the ballot box. This is who I am. These are my principles that I'm standing on. Now is the time to share it. That's exactly what I did. You also...

I think unlike a lot of other content creators have a day job and I know you're making money through content creation, but do you feel like having that day job also insulated you a little bit from the

the fallout of, of, uh, of sort of switching sides like this. Oh, absolutely. And I've, I've specifically chosen to keep my day job because of that. I knew, I know myself, I know that my opinions change even back, uh, during the Olympics, the opening ceremonies, how everybody was calling it the last supper when it wasn't, it was, it was an actual painting that they were depicting. I posted about that and I lost like 2000 followers just saying like, Hey guys, this isn't the last supper. Uh,

So even since then, I'm like, okay, I know that I being dedicated to truth rather than to party, I could potentially get myself in a situation that is not a solid foundation to base my career on. So I've kept my nine to five for the specific reason of not having

having to sell myself out. And I use any other revenue from social media just to save, you know, I came from nothing and I'm finally being able to, to build a life where I can have a little bit of security because of social media, but it's not required, uh, for my, for me to sustain my living. That said, I want to talk about the sort of dynamics and the

the financial, the very real financial pressure, I think that a lot of people feel, and also the amount of money and infrastructure on the right. You posted a tweet where you said, if I were in this for the money, I'd be licking the feet of conservative organizations just to keep a roof over my head. That's never been the case. Can you talk about this infrastructure on the right and the money and the brands available and kind of how it works in that ecosystem? Because I think a lot of content creators do stay in that world for the financial upside.

Yeah. I mean, there's so many organizations that it's not just, you know, conservative companies that sell protein powder that you might get a brand deal with. It's, you know, Turning Point USA, PragerU, the Heritage Foundation, all of these different nonprofits that may have a political goal that need a messenger for it.

You know, they'll reach out and they will pay you to talk about specific issues or these conservative filmmakers that want to have their films advertised to specific conservative audiences. You know, being...

involved in a very tribalistic community that is based on something that you think you all share the same values, it's very lucrative because people are very trusting. They're like, "Oh, if you're conservative, I trust you. Here's my money." And that's why it gets a lot of people stuck in it. And a lot of these companies know that. It's not actually about the values.

It's about the market that they've created. Yeah. And the billions of dollars being poured into that market from billionaires also. Correct. Since you've,

evolved and left sort of MAGA, have you found anything like that? I mean, does that infrastructure exist on the left? I would argue it does not. But have you sort of, yeah, what have you encountered? You know, I would counter your argument a little bit by saying that I think the rest of culture is more liberal and more open to liberal creators. So you're saying like now you can participate in more like mainstream culture. Right. So I don't think that, you know,

Pepsi would do a brand deal with me if I was spouting Trump, Trump, Trump. But maybe if I'm like, hey, I'm a liberal and I like Kamala Harris, I think they'd be more open to working with me. So I think that I could go into that arena. I don't think that it's actually going to work for me because I'm still way too controversial. Well, also, like, those brands fundamentally don't want political creators. Right, right.

Correct. So it's like you're to like depoliticize yourself. You're right. Like you can then work with anyone, but I don't know that there's like, you know, there's not really like the equivalent of like the heritage foundations, like the money that they pump into creators, like, or turning point for the left. I think the DNC invests in creators more than the RNC does. I would say that that's, that is true, but that's the only,

thing that Democrats do when it comes to investment in creators more than conservatives do. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I was at the DNC this year. I think this year they definitely did like make that big effort and really tried, although they weren't their choice of creators was quite strange.

And also, ironically, Republicans have just sort of welcomed, that just is the Republican and conservative media ecosystem. I don't think they view like, this is our creator strategy. It's so intertwined. I mean, I was at the RNC back in 2016 in Cleveland. There was all

all YouTubers and content creators and Vine personalities and stuff, you know? Yeah, I think that was... They did invite me and I declined. But that's because, you know, I was going through this. But yeah, I guess I would see that point when it comes to the RNC too. But I think that conservatives have been on the other side of culture for so long that they created this ecosystem out of necessity because...

you weren't hearing conservative ideas in TV shows. And a lot of political programming happens subconsciously. It doesn't actually happen. It's not because you went to PragerU and said, I want to learn about taxes. It's because you watch a TV show that expressed anti-

or anti-tax sentiment or vice versa. And then that sort of shaped your opinion on specific policy. And I think that liberals, because in creative industries they dominate those, conservatives feel like their values weren't being seen. So they took it upon themselves to create another market for it. And this is the result. There's an upside and there's a downside to everything. But I will say it's very impressive, the system that they've created.

It's massive. Yeah, I think of Adam Faze, the iconic internet entrepreneur. I don't even know how to describe him. He runs a content studio. But he said, you know, liberals own Hollywood and conservatives own the internet and Hollywood is irrelevant.

And I kind of agree with that. When you look back at your content, you know, have you gone back and sort of re-evaluated some of the messaging now that you know a little bit more truth around issues like, you know, election fraud or these sort of other culture war type issues? Have you gone back and readdressed any of your 2021 videos or sort of recontextualized any of that old content? Or are you sort of just leaving it in the past?

So I have not put the content in my videos because I looked different. I didn't have as many muscles. My forehead was big. So I'm like, I don't want to show my old self. But I mean, I still talk about issues and I'm very open. Like if I'm on TikTok live or if I'm making a video, I'll say, hey, like I've changed my position on this. Or if I'm just talking about the election, I'll be like, well, when Trump lied about the election and then my father's like, wait, you switched stuff. I'm like, yeah, I did because I was presented with new information. I think

the most important thing is yes, take down videos obviously if they're blatantly wrong. But for a lot of creators, if you hyper focus on every single little mistake that you've made, you're never gonna be able to continue to grow and move forward. And you're not really being authentic because humans make mistakes.

Some of my videos that I look back on, I'll see them come up and I'll be like, let's take this off because I don't necessarily agree with that anymore. And then as we talk about it, whenever it's in the news again, I'll be honest about that. But not yet. I haven't done like a throwback video, but I might do that now. That might be a good idea. Well, so I want to talk a little bit about your ideology now. I mean, are you full on pro-democracy?

blue through and through like Democrat now? - No, I've learned my lesson, okay? I don't wanna have this-- - You're not going full resistance, Lib. - No, not yet, not yet. I mean, here's the thing. If the culture shifts and this, I hate saying normalize 'cause everybody's like, "We need to normalize everything."

But this really does need to be normalized in politics. We should be able to look at where the country is going and what the country needs every election and decide based off of that. In four years, if we see a huge pendulum swing to the right, I'm gonna probably be at the DNC.

But if we don't see that, and I see that the country needs more balance between liberalism and conservatism, then I'll probably still be situated in the middle. But I think that what the country needs varies. It varies per election cycle. So I'm going to station myself in the middle. And then as those things come up, I'll be blatantly honest and I'll trust my instincts from here on out because I didn't do that previously. Have you found a new group of content creators to collaborate with? I mean, have you

found anyone else that sort of shares your centrist like belief system or that, that, um, you know, you align with ideologically these days a little bit more. Honestly, Taylor, I kind of hate people. So like, I don't do a lot of collabs. Um, it's just too much work, but there's some creators that have reached out to me that are on the other side that I, I, I really respect and I'm not going to name drop them, but, uh, and, and they've had,

had interest in doing collabs or they've just talked about different opinions and they're just more open to listening to what I have to say. And they're like, Hey, I saw your, I hated you three years ago. Um, but now you're making a lot of sense. So yeah, there's some, but I don't think that I'm going to put myself in another situation where I'm surrounded by creators who only agree with me. Um, if somebody wants to collab with me, that's on the other side of the aisle, either way, then I'll be open to it. Uh, if I don't deem them annoying.

I mean, I feel like so many politicians, the reason they're focused on content creators, you know, for better or worse, especially this past election cycle is because they're trying to reach Gen Z. And most people, at least the people I talked to under 40, and I think polling backs this up, are super anti-establishment. They really don't like either party. Like they're depressed about the fact that our options are someone like Kamala Harris and Trump. Yeah.

What do you think politicians can do to better connect with people from your generation and maybe get them out of this rabbit hole of radicalization? Yeah.

Yeah, I think that authenticity is key. And that's really why Trump has had the success that he's had. I don't think his authenticity should be rewarded with the presidency, but he is authentic and authenticity is magnetic. I know that because whenever I'm being the most authentic online, that's when my videos go viral.

And that's really what's being rewarded is people want to see humans in politics. They don't want to see these overly politically correct figures that have rehearsed every single thing they've said in hopes of not hurting somebody's feelings.

I think that being authentic in and of itself is anti-establishment because the establishment is so politically correct. So if you really want to capture my generation's attention, I think that just being honest and being authentic

is the key to do it. What advice would you give to other sort of content creators that feel trapped by their brand? Because I feel like, you know, when you build a brand around a certain piece of content, it is so hard to pivot. It is so hard to break out of that. Like not just because you're getting the financial pressure, the pressure from your audience, but also it's like, it's what you succeeded at.

And if you do something else, you might not succeed at that. So I guess like, how do you think people can evolve their brands as they, their, you know, own belief system changes? This is something that I've, I've known could be a possibility that I might, I might not want to talk about politics, you know, four years from now. So I have been very meticulous in having two different types of content. You know, I have just like my funny commentary where I'm just like posting for,

whatever reason, and then I have my political commentary. So I know that people follow me based off of this niche, so if one of my political videos blows up, I will continue to post political content maybe three times a week, but then I'll sprinkle in some other content so they get used to it and it's not a big shift for them.

And then eventually I get better at making that other content for that other niche. And that becomes my main niche. So I'm constantly evolving my content, but doing it slowly so I don't see a huge drop off if I ever make any changes to the niche that I'm supporting. - Where do you see the Clarkson Lawson brand going? Like if we're looking a few years ahead.

I mean, where do you see yourself taking this? You know, I don't know. I'm really just trying to get through this last debacle. But I think that when it comes to politics, most people, I wouldn't say people who work in politics, but most people who genuinely care about politics, they do so because they care about the well-being of others. We just disagree on how we can help other people. And I think that that's where my motivation for talking about politics comes from, is

So I think that talking about more generalized subjects, but in a way that helps people learn and grow and live better lives, especially given that I've been working since I was 14. I couldn't even put food on the table. I was paying for my family's food. I've came from nothing. And I think that me knowing that I can do it and sharing with other people different things that can help them get out of bad situations helps.

That's my motivating factor when it comes to making content. So whether that stays being channeled through politics or through other, you know, forms of conversation, I think it'll maintain like that. So there's this idea of the sort of like never Trump Republicans, although I think they're increasingly disappearing. But, you know, a lot of people sort of don't like Trump or Trumpism, but they still identify with the Republican Party.

And you talked about kind of losing faith in some of the Republican Party's policies. Were there any kind of specific moments where ideologically you realize that you just don't vibe with kind of what the current version of the Republican Party is pushing? Yeah, I mean, there's there's economic policy. There's things like capping credit card interest rates. There's tariffs and things like that that I don't necessarily agree with. There's that fight over the H-1.

H1B visas. That's a, that's a whole other thing, you know? And I think that what this has to do is populism and you can only be a populist for so long, uh, without having to entirely shift your principles. Trump was a populist in 2016 that drew me in. And now you're seeing that because populism is shifted by the majority, uh,

his views on a lot of things are changing because the majority is changing their opinions around them. And I think that that's the biggest concerning factor when it comes to MAGA for me is that I don't think that the movement actually stands on principle. I don't really know what I'm supporting. And you're just sort of like supporting the cult of personality of

Trump. Correct. And it's like, I'm involved in this because I want to feel like I'm a part of something. It's really playing on the communal nature of humans. And it's actually very dark when you think about how politics does that, how it makes people feel a sense of purpose and belonging when it really, you know, we should be feeling that together. But I don't necessarily know what MAGA is going to be in four years. And I think that that's the biggest thing for me. What about, you know, you were part of this like gaze for Trump internet

like community of LGBTQ people that I, you know, we're pushing pro-Trump messaging. Now, I think we've seen a lot of people in Trump's circle come out with pretty hardline positions against the gay community. You know, we've seen perhaps

perhaps a willingness from his, uh, administration to potentially pass things that would really restrict, um, LGBTQ people's rights. So did you ever have a sort of moment where you realized that, you know, his policies might affect your own freedoms? Trump is notoriously very like ambiguous when it comes to LGBT issues. He never actually speaks on them himself really. Um, and I did, listen, I was at Mar-a-Lago and he spoke to us about decriminalizing, um,

homosexuality across the globe. And that's something that I care about because we are very privileged in the United States. So I was like, okay, this is great. And I don't necessarily think Trump is the problem. I think Trump being a populist is because you're seeing as MAGA's opinions change

and they become the majority, a lot of these figures who are very anti-gay are coming out of the woodworks and they're expressing their sentiment. - I think those aren't necessarily the majority opinions though, 'cause when you pull people about things like LGBTQ rights, most people support those. It's really just this sort of like hardline people within the far right that don't.

Right. And I think that politics attracts naturally more extreme people. So the main public isn't really indicative of what the party is believing because the people who are working in the party tend to be a little bit more radical than the average person who's just working a corporate job. Which has also cultivated that radicalism.

Right, exactly. And I think that my problem is that because Trump's opinions are dictated by the majority and what he thinks will be the majority, right? It's dictated by this majority that he surrounds himself with is what I'm saying. Yes, because that under his impression, that may be the majority.

Of like the 10 people that he's sort of listening to all the time. The majority of the party. Yeah, I see a shift and that's what I get worried. I don't think it's the majority now, but I can see in four years it very well could be. And I don't want to support a candidate that could potentially shift on those issues or doesn't actually have principles that they're following because I know how culture shifts and changes. Yeah. I mean, what did you make of it when these big sort of anti-gay protests

Trump influencers starting to get more power. I'm thinking of people like Libs of TikTok or, you know, the Gays Against Groomers account, which has also now sort of come out against a lot of just plain old gay people. Like,

How did you navigate the rise of those other influencers in the sort of conservative community? Well, Gays Against Rumors, you know, I actually worked with them at the beginning. And Jamie Mitchell, I'm still friends with her. She's actually been, she's one of the very nice people who's continued to support me. So I think that there are ideological differences when it comes to that. I wouldn't say that they're necessarily the most radical. But to your point that there are people coming up in the party that are very anti-gay, you know. To me, the hairs are starting to stick up. You know, I'm like, okay, I can see where culture is going.

And that's why it does worry me. Now, I'm not somebody who lives in a victim complex. If people want to attack gay people, then obviously I will opposely go against them. But you can see that the culture is shifting as they get more power. And it's something to just keep in the back of your head and look out for, especially if you're a gay republic.

because I don't want gay people to think they can't be Republicans. In fact, because there are gay people that are Republicans, I think that's something that's stopping the party from becoming more radical. So I don't ever want to give off the sentiment that gay Republicans are invalid, but I do want them to stand on principle and to call out some of that behavior so it doesn't get popular in the party. It seems like since...

Trump won, you've seen the leaders of all of these social platforms come around and like kiss the ring. You had Mark Zuckerberg, you know, having lunch with him at Mar-a-Lago. Obviously, Elon Musk is completely in the tank for Trump and has sort of remade Twitter in a way to boost pro-Trump sentiment. And then you have the rise of all these alternative platforms like Rumble or Locals and even platforms like Substack that have really shown an alignment with sort of conservatives online. How has that

affected you and how do you think about that now that you're not one of those conservative influencers that has the sort of, I guess, the upper hand on all of these platforms? How are you thinking about the platform ecosystem? Does it worry you now that you've sort of left this movement that's like about to get power? They're about to have power for the next four years. And you just...

Left it. Yeah. And I just, I find it ironic that I'm called a grifter. And that's the main accusation that's coming out. Right, because you would do the opposite if you were grifting. Right. I mean, if I was feeling, if it was truly just about money, then I would have came out with this when Kamala was doing all these Republicans for Trump, or for Kamala events. I would have done it back then. You could have been with Dick Cheney.

- Dick Cheney. - Right, I mean who doesn't wanna be with Dick Cheney? So that, I mean, I just, I find it ironic. And you know, I think that being a contrarian is something that naturally comes to me. So I'm not really worried because the thing is, is like social media is a creative outlet for me. If I lose the revenue from it, I lose the revenue from it. But I just wanna be able to creatively express myself. So if I don't get clicks because of it, that's totally fine as long as I'm being true to who I am. That stuff just is secondary.

So I'm a millennial and I grew up in an age where, yes, we had the internet, we had Facebook in college and all of these other things, but we didn't have to sort of like put our whole belief system on the internet from such a young age. You're in your mid twenties and you grew up in a completely different generation. And I feel like for so many Gen Zs, you're seeing these young people have to deal with their political evolutions or their belief systems, like evolve in real time in public on the internet.

What are your thoughts on that? And like, do you feel like this evolution and what you've had to go through in terms of this backlash and rebranding yourself and all this stuff, like is something that a lot of other Gen Zs might experience on like a more micro level? Yeah. I mean, I think that this is something that we're going to have to deal with, especially in politics. You know, it's not just about political views. It's about, you know, things that you've sent, pictures you've sent to people. We've lived our lives online. So there's going to come a point where we all just have to either become numb to a lot of the

human mistakes that people have made or become a little bit more forgiving, or it's going to push people into a corner to not evolve or grow. Now, I'm not choosing the latter, and I think that it's going to be hard. It's a harder path for the people who choose not to, but it'll eventually be more rewarding. And I talk about this a lot, especially with politics, because my generation's not really getting into politics. We're not going to get into it until we're probably in our 40s.

But it's going to look vastly different. You know, the allegations against Trump are going to be nothing comparatively to when my generation does, especially the pictures that are going to be out of every politician. I just feel like the culture is going to entirely shift when the people who have lived their lives online actually have to become these public figures. Well, yeah, I feel like, I mean, look, there's always the like scare of like, oh, the old pictures are going to come out when you were drinking in college or whatever. I feel like what's harder is how...

having nuance online and evolving your opinions on things. I mean, I've certainly like evolved my opinions on certain issues, but I'm sure you could find some old posts that I did in 2017 to like contradict it or something and make it seem like, oh, she's not like true, you know, to this belief system. And so I do think that it like,

I do think that the way the internet is currently structured where everything is default permanent and default public, it does sort of push people not to change and kind of like trap people in their belief systems because you don't want to get attacked for evolving. Well, I mean, honestly, my biggest fear is always being called a hypocrite.

And that allegation can be true for some of my content. If you were to look two years ago at what I've said and what I'm saying now, but I think what we have to understand is just have a little bit more grace for, for humanity, I guess, because, you know, I,

I don't know. I just feel like if you are dead set in your ways and you're not changing your mind, especially at my age or even your age or at any age, it's just a recipe for disaster. How do you learn and grow as a person if you're just stuck in this corner? And that's one critique that I have of a lot of political influencers on both sides is that there are people who are my age who are just talking point, talking point, talking point. And some of them are even hating on me for being honest about my evolution. And I'm like,

you're going to get to being 50 years old and you're going to realize you've never been introduced to an opposing idea or you've never even listened to it. And I think that that's going to have a lot of effects on, you know, economic decisions on just everything in our country because people are not open to any nuance. And when you're not open to that, you're not actually open to finding the truth and good solutions. Well, one thing I'll say is like, I think as somebody, we all are like this, probably I think if we're thoughtful people have very nuanced positions, I feel like

Certainly, I've been made a caricature on the internet in a certain way. I was looking at some Fox News article about me this morning, and I'm just like, who is this person that you're writing about? Because it's certainly not me. And I hope that there can be more of a recognition, too, that these people that we look at online, they're really just characters. And a lot of people have a lot more depth and nuance than you're able to see if you just...

sort of know about them through the media or know about them through like seeing a few videos about them online. Well, yeah, I mean, even just over the last week, I'm like opening my Twitter and seeing all of these different things and you can't help like we're human. You can't help be like, is that, is that true about me? You know? And then, you know, we're all human beings. So of course we're going to doubt ourselves. And I hope that people can be more forgiving and more understanding, but I just, I don't see that ever happening. I'm sorry.

Yeah, I don't think it will. I mean, maybe people will become more numb to accusations. And I think that kind of happened with Trump, you know, because so many things like the kitchen sink has been thrown at him. And most of it true. People are numb to it. They don't care what he does anymore or what comes up about the past because of all of the different accusations. So I think we may get to a point in culture where nobody really cares about an allegation anymore, which could be a good thing or a bad thing. I just want to ask him.

Like one more question about the media. I'm just so interested in the fact that you got de-radicalized by MSNBC. Like I can't actually get over it. Like it's so funny to me. How does that happen? Yes, because I feel like.

I mean, everything that we find about like, I mean, just as somebody that's written about de-radicalization and sort of shifting people out of their echo chambers and bubbles, I guess, like it's usually so much more about the internet and sort of like slowly introducing them to new ideas. So I'm just curious, like, you know, when you started, and I understand like you wanted to go from this one extreme to this like sort of other extreme of like the most like DNC pilled, I guess, media that you could find. But so did you like buy a cable subscription or like, I don't even know how to watch MSNBC if I wanted to, like,

I just watch clips on YouTube and a lot of them are posted on TikTok too. So like if you start watching Rachel Maddow, she'll show up more. I mean, I agree. Maybe it's not the normal standard way of being like D. I don't think I was ever radicalized though, to be honest. Well, not radicalized, but like breaking out of your filter bubble. Like I feel like you made such an intentional choice to break out of it. So I think that for me personally, I...

I do best by reading between the lines of people and I think a lot of radicals will post or they'll say a lot of BS, but then there'll also be a little bit of truth. And understanding that mentality helps me understand the opposing mentality and then I'm able to actually find out what the truth is when it comes to these political arguments.

You know, I mean, when Joy Reid talks about racism and she's saying, you know, if she were to say like all white people are racist, I don't know if she's ever said that before. I don't know. I don't want to get sued. And then, you know, somebody on the other side says that X, Y, Z, you can kind of find the seed of where that idea is coming from. And then you can understand both of those people, which forces you to understand those ideas more.

One thing that I feel like you didn't talk about when you're talking about getting off of this MAGA pipeline is journalism. Traditional journalists, I think, have tried so hard to report facts about stuff and really haven't broken through. I would argue they're increasingly irrelevant, I guess.

It makes me sad. I'm a journalist too, so I feel like I can say this. But like, you know, I'm being real. This is literally why I left like traditional media, although I still freelance in it, like is to try to reach more people online. But like, why don't you think- Why don't I look to journalists? Why can't journalists like-

fix this? Like, I feel like nobody wants to hear from them. The thing about journalists, and this is, I think this is the main problem with the way people perceive them, is that I think their biases are not put on the front for a reason, but it's less trusting. I would much rather listen to somebody who I entirely disagree with, spew their opinions, some of them being false, and then

understand that person a little bit more because at least they're being real. And, you know, it's not to disrespect any journalists because obviously I do still like read some, some journalists and I appreciate that. But I think that a lot of that,

No, the whole thing is built on obscuring, like pretending like you don't have an opinion. The trust for journalists has been destroyed in the public because they've weaponized that trust to push their own biases. And because of that, nobody trusts them at all. I would love for there to be a happy medium where like, and there's this one website that like tells you what way like your journalist. Okay, that website is so broken though.

Okay, I've never used it. I'm just saying the ideas there. I don't even want to name it. The irony is you sort of have to know the journalists. Because you can't really say an outlet is... I mean, certain outlets do push certain ideologies undeniably. They have certain worldviews and editorial views. But if you're reading someone at the New York Times, if I'm reading something from their text section by, I don't know, some of the many reputable journalists there, it's very different than reading something by somebody like David Leinhart, who is...

lying constantly and yet publishing it as news articles. And same thing with even where I used to work, right? Like at any of these places, I'm like, I know my colleagues. Some of them are incredibly trustworthy. And then you have some random person on the opinion page that's spouting nonsense that's framed as news. But I agree with you. I mean, I think that the news media ecosystem, it sounds like what you're saying, and I'm

completely agree with this is like this like pretend that they're like holding up this farce of neutrality. They've never been neutral. Journalism is inherently not a neutral act and yet pretending to be neutral while pushing specific editorial agendas it makes people like

lose trust in you because I'm with you. It's like, I'd rather know where you're coming from because I might disagree with you, but at least I know where you're coming from. If you pretend not to have an opinion, but you shape these articles to push specific narratives, that's disingenuous. Exactly. Yeah. And one thing though, that I think that a lot of people who are just observers in the political space are going to realize is that the qualms with the mainstream media have nothing to do with the mainstream media and everything to do with human nature.

Okay. So influencers are just as subject to manipulating you for whether it's capital or for ulterior motives. And I don't think that the public realizes that because influencing is so much more personal. That trust that they used to have in journalists was now moved to influencers. But there's going to come a point where they're going to be like, oh my gosh, the bubble has broke and these influencers are also lying.

So hopefully that just demands more and more authenticity from people who are talking about different subjects. But I wish they would open their eyes to people who are truly manipulating them for money and clout, because it's not the ones who come out after the election and lose money by being honest. It's the ones who are still pushing it. And it's not the journalists making like

$65,000 a year to try to expose financial crimes. It's like, yes, do people go on cable news? Yes, there are terrible reprehensible media figures, but there's also really hardworking journalists that...

that don't have financial incentives. And yeah, I thought actually Andrew Callahan of Channel 5, like his video, he made this Instagram video that came up on my feed the other day and was talking about this exact issue. And I hope that people eventually get to that place where they realize really you can't trust much of anything and you need to develop your own sense of media literacy, but I don't have a huge amount of faith in Americans to do that. I think it's,

a lot easier to just sit and consume daily wire push alerts all day and live in that reality. It's a lot less stressful and confusing. I mean, it's really not hard to do. Like even when I started shifting my content to be, to attempt to be a little bit more objective, I would start it out by saying, I am a right leaning guy. This is my opinion on the debate of me trying to be objective.

So I already built that trust right at the beginning of the video and they have their guard up. They're like, okay, well, if I'm a liberal, this guy's right-leaning, but let me hear him out. And I think that if journalists were to be a little bit more open with that, maybe that would rebuild the trust. But it also comes down to the fact that what wins now is being...

entertaining. It's not about facts. And a lot of journalists don't have that quality. They've got the brains, but they aren't necessarily somebody that you want to watch for an hour. So I think that finding a way to incorporate these journalists into the media sphere, especially with these influencers, whether it's like working with influencers to make sure they're reporting on the right things, that could be a solution. But

you know, charisma is not something that really exists. It's not something everyone has. I certainly struggle with it myself. No, not at all. You're in it too. Well, Clarkson, thank you so much for chatting with me today. Thank you for having me. We'll talk soon.

That's all for the show. You can watch full episodes on my YouTube channel at Taylor Lorenz. Power User is produced by Travis Larchuk and Jelani Carter. Our executive producer is Zach Mack. If you like the show, give us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. In the meantime, subscribe to my tech and online culture newsletter at usermag.co. That's usermag.co. See you next week.