#41 - Sam Yarborough - The Squiggly Line to Success: Why It's Okay to Not Have It All Figured Out
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are excellent. You become unforgettable. Welcome to the In Bloom podcast. I'm Ella, your host, and today I'm so excited to chat about something I bet we've all wondered. Is there really such a thing as a normal career path anymore?

In today's professional landscape, the traditional notion of climbing a corporate ladder seems increasingly outdated, and it doesn't help that everywhere we look there's pressure to climb the corporate ladder while somehow maintaining a perfect work-life balance. Exhausting, isn't it? Many of us find ourselves struggling to reconcile our professional ambitions with our personal lives, often feeling like we're falling short on both fronts. And let me tell you, nothing drains your energy quite like feeling stuck in a job or a life that does not feel right.

This disconnect can lead to missed opportunities, unfulfilled potential, a pervasive sense of dissatisfaction. That's where our guest Sam Yarbrough comes in today. Her professional journey offers a refreshing counterpoint to these challenges. Her evolution from graphic designer to now chief growth officer at advisory showcases the potential of embracing change and recognizing unconventional opportunities. Her

Her insights promise to challenge our preconceptions about professional success. Her varied background spans from marketing emails to agency ownership. I mean, she even did professional calligraphy for a little while and we get into that. And it all provides a unique lens through which to view career development. The path of your life or career.

what she likes to call the squiggly line. In today's conversation, we delve into the advantages of non-traditional career trajectories, strategies for harmonizing leadership roles with family commitments, how to cultivate robust professional and personal partnerships, the significance of purposeful living and consistent goal evaluation. We'll also explore Sam's recent foray into event organization, specifically her conference for revenue leaders and

which underscores her dedication to nurturing meaningful industry connections. In a little while, a future episode, you will hear some more about the power and importance of networking, but just note that. Our aim today is to provide you with a fresh perspective on crafting a career and life that truly resonates with your values, whether you're contemplating a professional shift, feeling stagnant, or maybe even you're just simply curious about navigating today's dynamic work environment.

This discussion today offers valuable insights for forging a path that aligns with your personal definition of success. Join us as we unpack Sam's experiences and discover how embracing flexibility and intentionality can lead to unexpected achievements and genuine satisfaction. Let's get into today's episode. Thank you, Sam, for being here.

To start, I wanted to ask about your story. How did you get where you are today? Well, it's been a very squiggly line. We'll say that.

Which I think everybody's career kind of is. If it's a straight line, then, you know, I think that you were one of the lucky ones that knew where you were going. Or maybe not so lucky because there's been a lot of adventures along the way. So I actually started my professional career. I have a degree in graphic design. So I started my very first job was

Awful. Um, I was coding spam emails for car dealerships. So quickly learned what I did not want to be doing with my life. Um, so decided to make a shift from there. Um, a few hops and skips later, I actually found a job on Twitter. This was like a long time ago. I'm getting older now. Um,

But somebody had posted that they were looking for a graphic designer in a company in Charlotte, North Carolina, and they'd never been there. So I sent them like this pretty custom direct mail piece and they offered me the job. And I don't, this was like pre-Zoom, like we didn't even like meet face to face. We just talked over the phone.

So I'd never been there. I packed everything in my Subaru and drove to North Carolina and started working for an ad agency as a graphic designer, which was such an awesome experience. I actually moved from graphic designer to creative director there. And we did billboard campaigns for like really like small mom and pop, you know, stores to like

Dunkin Donuts was corporate, was one of my biggest customers. So like wide variety. And so that was kind of my first entrance into marketing. And I noticed, I learned a lot about myself in that role. I learned that like, I am very curious about how things work. So when people would come to me and say like, I want an ad for X, I would ask so many questions about like,

well, how does this fit into your overall campaign? And what are your goals for this? And what are you trying to do with that? And, you know, it kind of crossed the border between sales and marketing and my real job of being a creative director. And so I kind of followed that thread and started my own marketing agency, which I did for about two years. And I also did calligraphy on the side. Um,

I made a fair amount of money doing calligraphy, which is so funny to think back on. And then I moved into financial distribution products, which was another left turn. So I was a brand director of brand strategy for them.

which was also very interesting. You know, I think one of the red threads throughout my career is there's always something to learn, um, in every, every situation that you're in. So in this particular one, I learned a lot about retirement, um, and how to prepare for it. And, um,

I was there for a while. I definitely learned a lot. It was definitely a moment in my life, and this is something we can continue to chat about as women. But I think your career can ebb and flow. When I was in my early 20s, I was taking a lot of risks, and I had a lot of great ideas that I could follow because I didn't have a family and all the things that come along with that. But I took this job when Jason, my husband, and I got married because I wanted just...

some stability to focus on like having a relationship and not running a business at the time. Um, and then after that was my first entrance into partnerships. So that's a funny story. Um,

I actually took my husband's job. He gave it to me rather is the proper way to say that. But he left and they were looking for somebody to hire. And he actually was like, hmm, maybe you should talk to my wife. So PFL did. They hired me and I was director of partnerships there. And by the time I left, I was SVP of partnerships there.

And yeah, I've just kind of continued to stay in that partnership space. I'm lucky to have found it. I love it. It's a good calling back to those roots at the ad agency. It lets me wear all those hats in my everyday job. And now I consult other partners on how to run good partnerships within Salesforce at a company called advisory.

I love that. Long-winded. No, not long-winded. I feel like it perfectly explains the squiggly line adventure that you were talking about before. And what's interesting though, to me is how, I mean, maybe you can speak to this. Were you comfortable with the amount of squiggles that existed or were you kind of

almost aware of it. Like whenever you were a freelancer or whenever you were a brand strategist and you were doing all these things and hopping into all these different industries, like was there a part of you that wanted consistency or were you entirely fine with it? Like you loved the adventure. That's a really interesting question. And I think the now me would probably answer differently than the then me.

hindsight's 2020, you know, and I'm really grateful for all of those experiences because I do think that they've given me a good foundation to be successful in, in the role and the industry I'm in now. When you're young and you're, you're looking through your career and you're like looking for what's next, it can feel haphazard. It can feel a little directionalist at times, but I also think you don't know until you try. And if you don't take the at bats, then you're,

you know, you're never going to, you're never going to move up to that next level. So I think it's a necessary evil and,

And in the moment, it just felt like the right next thing to do. Yeah, I can relate to that. I feel like there have been times when I'm looking at my next moves or whenever I'm asking myself, okay, what am I doing? I don't feel as stable as I would want to, or maybe I'm comparing myself to other people who seem to have it all together. Did you do that a lot at that point? Totally. Totally. Yeah. And I think the comparison thing is really interesting. Yeah.

We're both women. And so there's a lot that happens in a woman's life. There's career trajectory, there's family trajectory, there's relationship trajectory. There's all these things that are happening at these moments in our life that's really easy to compare people to and against. And, you know,

I'm 35. I'm on, I have two kids. I'm married. I have a successful career and now that I'm on the other side of this, whatever this is still growing, like the path to get here is, or get wherever you're going is so different for every single person. And so, um,

Unless you have like a solid foundation of like, this is what's important to me at this moment in my life. And this is why I'm making the decisions that I am. You can get really easily trapped in that comparison matrix. And it gets really dangerous because you're comparing yourself against people who are striving for different things or who have different values or interests.

you know, just have a completely different outlook on life than you do. And so that comparison is just worthless and makes you feel terrible for no reason. Um, so it's a really important thing to keep your head on and be aware of. Yeah. I love that emphasis. And I also think that, um,

while jumping isn't the, maybe, maybe it's not jumping, but like while switching careers or switching industries, isn't always like the most recommended route that people would take. I think the, the thing to point out and like, I've definitely experienced this as well as you shouldn't do things that you hate. And there are so many people that stay doing things that they hate for too long because they are chasing that security. They are chasing, you know, that, um,

that stability that they can talk about almost, but like,

on the other side of it, they're not enjoying themselves or like it's not bringing the best out of them or it's not challenging them. So while there is a part of me that's like, oh, I totally understand the desire for stability. And I've definitely had periods where I feel more stable and other periods where I feel more unstable. And it's like, oh my gosh, I need to find what I'm looking for. Like whether it's a job or whether it's, you know, the relationship or whether whatever it is, maybe friendships, maybe community, like,

there's also something good in the wandering almost. Absolutely. And I'm a full proponent of it. Like at certain moments of your life, you should go explore because if you're only basing these decisions off of what you know, then by proxy, that's a limited view. And so if you're not saying yes to a few opportunities, and they don't have to be life-changing career, you know, new industries, like they can be small things like join a new company,

start a new hobby and find community around that. Like join a new Slack group, like just start to explore and you never know what that's going to lead to. But yeah. And then there's moments in your life like right now, actually, I just turned down an opportunity that this was like such a hard thing for me because every other moment in my life, it's been like a, well, I've been chasing career growth and

unknowingly. It just was like the thing to do, you know? And this was an awesome opportunity and it was surrounded by should for me was like, I should go do that. Cause it's a great role. It was great company, great, you know, whatever, whatever.

And I just wasn't feeling right about it. It just didn't sit right with me. And then, you know, it was like a ton of travel, a lot more work that I'm doing right now. And I had to take a step back and say, the old Sam should have done that and would have done that. But right now, what's important for me is like, I'm a mom of two small kids and they're small for me.

short time. And I'm in a really good place where I'm able to pay attention to that and be present with them while still having a good career. But the North Star, it was a weird moment for me because it changed in that moment. And it was the first time that I actually put words around that of like, huh, I'm not just chasing career growth to chase it. It's okay to be in this spot and

not grow in that sense. So that was a weird moment, but a big one.

That is a massive moment. You said that you're chasing career growth. How long did that period last? And you said that you were unknowingly chasing it. Like, has this always been a thing that you have strived towards the most inside of your career? Or was there a period, I guess it ebbs and flows, obviously, where, you know, sometimes you spend more time in your career, sometimes you spend less time. But how long did that period last? And can you kind of like,

see how your family life also affected the way that you chased different things and the way that your values showed up? Totally. Well, I mean, truly, it probably lasted 10 years. You know, every role I got, first of all, I'm not the type of person that can half-ass anything, which is a blessing and a curse. Yeah.

So when I'm in a role, I'm like fully committed. I'm, you know, like figuring out how I can do better, how I can bring more strategy, you know, change the way that we're doing things for the better, which is really helped propel me forward. Like, I don't know that I've ever like actively sought out a leadership role. I just keep finding myself in them, which is

great and I love them and I've learned to like really value that position, um, and cherish the opportunity to mentor people. Um, but yeah, then, you know, life changes and all of a sudden I have other things outside of work in my life. Um, it's really easy when you're in your early twenties or like thirties and you know, you're, you have nothing else. And so it's, it's hard. It's,

The work-life balance lines get really blurry because kids make it very easy. My kids come home at 4.30. They go to school at 8. And there is no doing work when they're around. So, you know, work-life balance became a thing that it was like, I got to pay attention to this because it's fleeting. So that definitely is a new lens in which I'm exploring.

You mentioned that you keep finding yourself in leadership positions. Why do you think that's the case? Like if you were to look at yourself, maybe from another person's perspective or just like...

if you were to look at yourself and maybe the qualities that you have, what do you think draws that either out of you or what do you think draws people to you? Well, I do think it's the work being the workhorse element for better or worse. But then also I do think that I'm not very good at looking at something single threaded. Like if you give me a task, like I mentioned earlier, like with my creative director days, it was like you give me something and it's like,

let's take a step back and look at the big picture and how this fits in. And so I always was like, but what's marketing doing over there? Or what's sales doing over there? And so thinking holistically about the company and the strategy moving forward, I would create allies in the other departments. Even before I was in partnerships, this was just like, sales was selling something. I'd be like, what's not working? And how can I help you? And then those allies just started to be like, why are you an IC?

And you're like doing my job. And so it just kind of naturally started to like propel me forward. And then also like the results started to show from it. So like at PFL, I was hired as an IC, I moved into director and then SVP. And it was because there were results, but I'm also really good at evangelizing those results internally. So yeah,

Creating allies with the leaders and then talking about the good work you're doing. Because if you're not talking about it, no one knows about it. Yeah. Did you ever struggle with like, I know that some people struggle with, um,

false humility kind of where it's like, oh, but I don't want to tell people what I'm doing. Because I think that's a massive, massive thing, learning to evangelize for yourself. Like nobody sees what you're doing, you know, behind closed doors and everybody actually wants to support it and wants to celebrate it if you give them the opportunity to. Yeah. And I don't think so, but hopefully if somebody is listening to this and they know differently, they'll call me out on it. Again, it goes back to like,

Again, I keep going back to this PFL example, but I was driving partnerships. I was creating a ton of like momentum and lead gen for the company. And for me, it wasn't about me. It was just like, all right, company, like, let's look at what this is doing for the overall strategy. How can we amplify that? And like telling, telling about those wins in a story that wasn't about me, but about what's in it for me.

the leaders, for the company, for the sales teams. Like, hey, this is happening over here. So yeah, I think the way in which you tell the story and the persona with which you're trying to communicate is really important to factor in. Yeah, I love that. What motivates you? So like, you know, you're talking about being a workhorse. You're talking about doing all these things inside of a company. What motivates

is your why? Like, why do you do that? That's a great question. And one that I probably need to do some more soul searching on. You know, as of late, again, I feel really lucky that

Well, not only me, but also my husband have fallen into this partnership place. So like foundationally, my why is to create a great living so that I can support my family and we can have a good lifestyle. Okay. But that's everybody's why. From a career perspective, it's definitely changed in the last few years as we've started to like,

lean into this partner community and help people understand that they can be really great leaders and also really great people. And there's more to life than work. So I know you're passionate about this too. We've talked about it a little bit, but like holistically, like why do you come to work? Why do you help people? And then like, what is it that you're giving to yourself outside of work that makes you a whole person? So helping people kind of

on Carver, that's really important. And I will say, I do really like, we talked about this a little bit, but mentoring and leading people and like helping them figure that out for themselves. I think that's an honor to be somebody's leader, not a job title. So I do try to take that pretty seriously. I love that. I find that at least for me, and we've talked about this before, the idea of

humanity existing. It's not just like we're, you know, machines trying to get a task done. The value of humans is not just that we can get things done, but also that we can be creative about how we do it. So like sometimes whenever you take a step back, you can find new methods of doing it. There's this thing on why procrastinators are actually really effective. And it's basically just like they don't want to do work. So then they figure out workarounds instead of

instead of having to do the whole thing. Highly efficient people. Yeah, exactly. Better way to put it. They're not procrastinators. They're highly efficient. Yeah. So I definitely understand that and totally resonate with that. How have you found that, I guess, balance between, you know, being a mom, being a wife, being somebody, you know, being a friend, being a worker,

Like, how do you make those clear distinctions? And do you, do you find that like, for example, I know that maybe this is just not your role, right? Because partnerships is very dynamic and you get to talk to people and you get to be in a lot of relationships, but

Um, I've spoken with people who have very demanding careers like lawyers and other, and the type of persona that they have to embody almost when they're in that role or when they're, you know, in front of a judge or, um, trying to console a family, like it, it takes a lot out of them, but it also blurs the lines between who they have to be at home and who they have to be in a work environment. Do you ever find that?

to be a difficult balance to strike as well. Yes, for sure. I will say that being all of those things, being a mom, being a career mom, being a wife, being a friend, being, you know, it's like, those are all different personas and it can get really messy and demanding to like keep all of those balls in the air and do it, do so effectively. Yeah.

You know, I do feel really lucky that I am in a career and I am in an opportunity that I do bring all of that to work with me. And I think that makes me a better leader. You know, some of my...

some of my team members like have kids or are talking about kids. And so I try to be really front facing about like, I got kids I'm leaving it for because there's an outdoor movie night and I'm not missing that. And like, you know, just leading by example of like, this is what's important to me. And I'm really going to like stand by that. And I would expect the same for you all. Like, yes, come to work, get your shit done. Like bottom line. But outside of that, like

If you're not happy in your life outside of work, then you can't be your best here. So really leading by example.

But it's also not all like sunshine and roses either. There's definitely moments where I feel like I have nothing left to give. And I have 60% to give to myself at the job that day. And I just try to be honest about that because that's the reality of life. And as long as you build a culture that

can like, if I can bring 60, then I need my team to bring the rest of my 40 to work that day. And there's a lot of times where I fill in to, to meet their a hundred percent. And so if we can find that balance, but we're all honest and open with each other about it, then that's a workplace I want to be a part of. So that's an ongoing challenge, but certainly something we strive towards. I love that. I love that, that, um,

that explanation of it. I heard somebody who once said something to the effect of like, actually it was somebody that I worked with. He was saying that sometimes he and his wife will talk and he's like, I only have 10%. Like I need you to fill in the rest of the 90. Like, or I have, I have 60%. How much do you have? And I think that's actually a really cool way to do

I mean, there's internal partnerships, right? Like you're partnering with your team to make everything work. And then there's relationship partnerships where you get to do that as well. But a little segue into relationships. So you and Jason have been married for what, six years now? We just celebrated our seventh anniversary. Seven, congrats. Thank you. That's awesome. So can you give me a little bit of background on your relationship and then just highlight like,

your top tip, the biggest thing that you've learned in seven years of being married? Okay. So Jason and I have a very interesting relationship and that like there is no separation of church and state. He normally sits right there and works there. He has the same job as me. We obviously have the same children. We live in the same house. We co-founded a company together.

Um, we both have work outside of that. So like, there's no like, see ya, see ya later. Hope you have a great day. It's just like all intertwined. And that's pretty fascinating for a lot of people because I don't think that's, that is right for everybody. Um, it works really, really well for us. And I'm really grateful for that. And that goes back to your previous question. Like I am as successful as I am or, um,

You know, try to be because of our partnership. Like I could not do all of this on our, on my own, but the way that our relationship started is he won't mind me sharing this with you, but he, he was married before me and he is also 10 years older than me.

So on our first date, it was like, well, I don't know. You've been on first dates before and it's like, you know, everybody's got on their shiny best and they're like, here's my resume and here's all the best factors about me. And I sit down with Jason and he's like, here's all my shit. And I was like, oh, wow. And I actually, it was so refreshing because it was like, oh my gosh, like a real conversation about real things and like,

you know, you've had life experience, you know, it works, but doesn't, you're not trying to hide anything from me. And there was just like this honesty from the very beginning that was really, really special. And that still stays true. Like nothing is sacred for us. It's all on the table. You know, we don't fight. We have conversations, but we certainly respect the hell out of each other. And we're both,

very equal parts in this life that we're building. And so I think my one piece of advice is do not harbor anything. Communication is of the utmost importance. And sometimes that can get messy, but

It is absolutely crucial to having a good relationship. Wow. I love y'all's relationship. Do you think that y'all started as best friends? Because I recently heard, what was it? I forget what it was, but there was this person that was saying something to the effect of a lot of people get into relationships and

Oh, I think it was the Godmans who are like researchers on lovers. I think it was them. They were basically like a lot of people get into relationships, but they never spend the time to figure out if they're actually compatible as friends. Like they're compatible romantically or they like each other, but then they never find out that they're compatible as friends. And that's what leads to a lot of divorce. And I was like, oh, wow, that's really interesting. Do you feel like y'all did that in the beginning as friends?

create that compatibility, create that friendship. And then that's the result of it. It's just a really unique kind of lifestyle. Yes, for sure. Obviously, that wasn't like an intentional, like, you know, we didn't set out to do that, but definitely. And then I think the other part that's super important that we also didn't intentionally do, but became pretty apparent in that like,

we shared really similar values. So, you know, I, Jason was working for a social media conference. I was an art director. So we both had like a very creative outlook on the world. And then like, I forget why, why we did this, what the impetus was. I think we just wanted an adventure, but I quit my job and we took a road trip across the country. And it was like, let's just go do that because we can. And like,

you know, that was so fun and crazy and ridiculous, but we had like, there was nothing to lose. And so we did it. And that was, you know, you can spend seven days in a car with somebody. And if you still like them at the end of it, that's worth something too. So I think the other part of that is getting out of your norm and like challenging the circumstances in which you're together is also a really excellent way to like battle test your relationship, you know?

Um, like I have a lot of friends who, you know, have gotten into relationships and gotten pretty serious and they don't talk about things like finance or what's your family like, or what's important to you and what do you want to be when you grow up? And like, those are all really valuable things and you can't lose your, you can't lose you as a person in your relationship. And so if you don't identify that from the beginning, um,

that's going to be a tough road ahead. Yeah. I love what you just said. You can't lose you or your person in a relationship. And then you, you mentioned something else that also kind of like dovetails with that. You said that y'all are both very equal parts in the life that you're building. Um, why do you think that is? Like there are people that will lose themselves where they have a relationship that's entirely unequal. You know, somebody is definitely more and somebody is definitely less. Um, how did you create that? Or

Or was that just like a natural thing for y'all to, um, yes. And natural with work. Um, you know, we definitely have ongoing conversations about that too. Like,

So it's all, it's also not linear. Like there's moments where I do more in the relationship than Jason does and vice versa. And so having those honest conversations with each other about like, yeah, I'm going to work full time while you, you know, go chase this and see if it's worthwhile or whatever.

you know, there's, there's little moments of that. There's big moments of that. Like, can you take the kids to school today? Because I need to like meditate or whatever, you know, but being really open and honest with each other about like the give and get, and then also being really gracious with your gratitude of like, I see you. I appreciate you. Thank you for like taking up that space so that I can have this space and

it's really easy to go through the motions and not appreciate your partner fully. Yeah. What have you learned about yourself through your relationship? They say that your partner is a mirror to yourself so much. I am not patient at all compared to Jason. Um, yeah, you know, I've learned so much. I'm really grateful for him and that he is more of a risk taker than me. Um,

And he's definitely challenged me in ways like that. I probably wouldn't have pushed myself because of that. I think I have a lot of potential. And he definitely is supportive of that and like pushes me outside of my comfort zone, which is great because if you don't have somebody that's doing that for you, it can be really easy to just be stagnant. So that's,

a really lovely part of our relationship. And I like to think I do the same for him too. So give and get. Yeah. And the part of you that recognizes that, you know, you have a lot of potential and you have a lot to give this world is,

How do you also reconcile the fact that, you know, you have a lot to give this world, but also you have a lot to give your kids and like you want to do both. It's like, okay, well, as a, as a mother, as a parent, like there's something that only I can give my kids and especially in this period of my life, but also on the other side, there are things that only I can give the world and I don't want to lose out on that. How do you reconcile those two? I mean, they seem like competing ideals, but do you see them as competing? That's a good question. Um,

People are always like, you can have it all. And some people are like, no, you can't. I'm a believer that you can, but it's not going to be all right now. And I think that's fine. And that's something that we all need to come to grips with. I know that being a working mom makes me a better mom. I made that choice.

Jason and I talked about when we had Jack our first, if it was like, should I stay home? And I thought about it because I had hormones rushing through my body and I was a new mom. And I was like, no, I would go crazy. I need that external outlet. And so it's important for me to have both. And it's important for me to just understand that I

have limits and that's okay. Like I still feel like we're doing a ton professionally and we're super present parents. And so it all comes down to priorities too. Like whatever you say yes to, there's something on the back end that you'll say no to. And so just being really clear on what those are for you personally, and they're going to be different for you than they are for me. So. Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. You can have it all just not right now.

Yeah. And it like that not right now can be like a matter of a day or a week or a month. Like this week I'm like fully invested in, you know, last week I was at Dreamforce. There is no parenting going on. This week I'm trying to drop my kids off as much as I can and be present for them while still like really committing to follow up and all that. So it's an ebb and flow always.

Yeah. I think that's a good point to make. Do you think, like, did you recognize that growing up or like whenever you were younger, did you recognize that there were going to be periods where you, you know, were going a little bit harder and a little bit softer on say like achievement or say like striving in one particular way? Because I feel like

at least in my experience, it's sold to you as this constant, right? You have to pick a lane and this is your constant life. And I don't think that's how it works. I am in full agreeance with you. And I think that we have the luxury of the internet on our side. I grew up

My parents got divorced when I was five. My mom was always a very hardworking, like corporate woman. And so that's kind of the view that I grew up in. So that was, there was never a question of like, what am I going to do? Because that was always really inspiring to me. My mom always likes to throw this one in my face, but I guess at some point, I don't remember this, but she, I told her I'm never going to be as busy or work as hard as you, which is,

Here I am. But I, you know, I think we have so much luxury right now. Like, you know, the ability to work remotely, the ability to opportunities that weren't available, like learning, you can, you can really become whatever you want right now, if you're going to put in the time and learn, like, so taking advantage of those and building a lifestyle around that, that you want is very feasible and, and,

that's certainly something I think about all the time. Like what, what is it that I'm striving towards and how can I optimize accordingly? I love that. You said that your parents got divorced. How did that affect you growing up and then into your later years? Well, you know what, going back to your previous question about like, why do I always find myself in leadership positions? That's probably why. So I was five. My sister was

not yet one. We then acquired a stepbrother who was the same age as my sister. So I was always like,

The ringleader. I was the constant in my sister's life, like when we're going back and forth between houses, you know? So it just kind of like, I naturally assumed that position and I just don't think I've ever stopped. I also think it made me really independent at a pretty young age. Cause I had to figure things out. Yeah.

I was just listening to this podcast about how in modern day parenting, we're stripping our children of their ability to be risk takers and be independent. And I look back at my childhood and I was like, there was no choice. I definitely just thought what needed to happen, so made it happen. So I think that for sure has carried through into my adulthood. Out of curiosity, did the independence ever...

challenge the, like your ability and the ability in your relationship for you to, um,

like accept the oneness aspect of it. Right. Cause like the goal in a relationship is that you're, you know, one and that your partners and that you're walking together. But I mean, at least something that I find in a lot of my friends that are very, very independent. And even myself is like, there's a part of you that craves that independence. Once you've gotten so used to it, it's like, Oh, but I love like doing things alone or like, I love this part of myself. Um, and it's almost like something to adjust to. Yeah.

It's a for sure an adjustment. I think going back to what I said earlier, too, though, like you have to be if you're if you're entering a relationship or you're in a relationship, you have to be really clear with yourself and your partner of like, this is what's important to me as an individual. And this is, you know, things these are non negotiables.

And to be totally fair, Ella, in the last year, I don't know that I've lost that in myself, but I've definitely over-indexed on career and parenting and therefore have lost my... I don't have any hobbies anymore. Here we go again, Jason inspiring me, but he did a huge run this summer and spent a lot of time training for it and whatnot, which...

fully supportive of it. But when he was done with it, I was like, wait a minute, I don't have anything. And there was a little bit of like, that's on me, you know, like that's on me if you're not standing up for myself and claiming my space and chasing after whatever it is that I, you know, that's so it's easy to fall into that space, but it's important to like take ownership over that for yourself and understand what your non-negotiables are.

Yeah. Do you ever challenge your non-negotiables? Like writing out that list, right? There are some people that have a list that's pages long of non-negotiables. Like, okay, I need my space on these days. I need X, Y, Z. How do you define the right non-negotiables for yourself? That's a good question. And I don't know that I've gotten as tactical as I may be

could or should for me right now, though, like, well, I've talked about this a lot, actually, in some podcasts that we do. Neil Pashrika, I think is his name. He does family contracts. And so like, I love the concept, because it's just like you would write a contract with work. Here's what's expected of you, your work X amount of hours, you know, all the things you do that with your family. And then like that in

includes yourself too. And so, you know, some unstated non-negotiables for me are like, I don't want to travel more than once a month. Like there may be moments where that absolutely has to happen, but I'm not going to willingly sign up for that to be the regular. Cause that goes back to like, I want to be present for my kids. You know, we have dinner together every night. These are really formative years for them. And so I,

There's just a few things like that. And going back to my point earlier, that was an eye-opening moment for me. Like truly within the last month of like, oh, my non-negotiables have changed and that's okay. But you know, it's time to like kind of reconsider how to optimize my life accordingly. And so just checking in with yourself is important too, because there's no moment where you're like, all right, life's different now. Yeah.

It just kind of gradually happens. Yeah, I think how it works, at least for me, is that I'll be operating with a certain set of rules and or non-negotiables in my head. And then one day...

I look at something and I'm like, oh, that didn't, that's not working the way that I want it to. And then whenever I reflect, it's like, okay, because the value and or the non-negotiable and or the thing that I set as being extremely important either is not correct anymore or needs to be clarified. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. How often do you do this or do you intentionally? Well, I

Well, so this is interesting because I used to write a lot. Like it's, it's very funny looking back at like journals, for example, because there are periods where I'm writing a ton. And I think those are the inflection points where things are changing, values are changing, some things, some things changing. And usually I tend to be

like an extreme ish kind of person. So like you were talking about yourself being like a workhorse, like I definitely have tendencies toward that. Or if I'm exercising, sometimes I'll like over do it. And it's just like, okay, we're doing it every, every single day. Or, um, like I tend toward extremes, but the, the good, uh,

thing with an asterisk has been that I learn things quickly. So like, because I do things pretty extremely, if there's something that's not working, I find out really quickly. And then I'm like, okay, I need to write about this because I also have a really interesting dialogue in my brain, which I wonder if you have thoughts on this, but like,

My brain doesn't like the way that I think it doesn't like to think unless I'm like talking or writing. Like I can't have processes as much. Do you have processes fully inside of your brain or is it like you have to write it out or talk it out? No, I'm with you. You know, it's actually funny because right behind me, I have a full, um, like, I don't know. There's like

There might be 12 little moleskins down there that are full, like front to back. And that's like how I used... You're spot on, like how I used to process anything and everything. And also being like a calligrapher and a creative person, it was just like an outlet for me. And when I was going to Dreamforce last week, I went down there to look for a notebook and I was like, wow, I haven't done this in like, I don't know how long. And

That's a problem because that means that I'm not like really internalizing or thinking through things or processing things the way that I probably should be. Um, so I'm so glad you brought that up because now I need to like go get a new moleskin and start using it. Um, yeah.

But I'm with you. I mean, you know, processes are not necessarily my friend in corporate world. They are a necessity and certainly something I've had to learn to adjust to unwillingly. But yeah, for us creative types, it's a little bit hard to fit into that box sometimes. Yeah.

Yeah. So this is funny, but do you write like the specific same prompts or how do you usually journal? Are you usually asking yourself similar questions? Normally it's just like free flow. So it's just, you know, here's what I'm thinking about. Here's what I'm struggling with. Here's what I'm, you know, and I think just getting that out is so helpful to like, oh,

it's a dumb thing to be like, you have to run the axle on or like, huh, there's an idea I hadn't thought about. So it just clears my, my brain personally better. But yeah, it's mostly just free, free form, not necessarily prompted for the most part. Do you, well, I usually ask myself questions. I also free flow. It depends on what's happening. If, if there's something wrong, like the problem with me is that I usually have multiple things. Like I don't,

I don't blow up or get upset or like, I don't like blow up, but it's more so I just get frustrated. Like I'll get frustrated and or annoyed with something, which I usually wouldn't.

And the problem is, is that it's not ever one thing. It's like five things happening all at once. So if something's happening, then usually I'll start with like a bulleted list. I'll be like, these are the points that I need to think through. And then I'll go into one at a time because I also forget things really easily. Like if I go really deep into a rabbit hole, I'm like, oh, what was I, what was I trying to think about the other one? And then sometimes they'll like, they'll start to connect.

in interesting ways too, like, oh, this connects with this. And then other times, like recently, I realized very similar to you that I had not opened up a journal in so long. Like I just hadn't asked myself the questions like, what do you want? Or where are you going? What are your values? What do you need? And so sometimes I'll just revisit with those questions. And I

It's kind of tough because I've asked myself those questions so many times that I feel like I'm writing the same thing, but it's like the tiny, tiniest detail that changed. And that's what I'm trying to find in that moment. That's really interesting. I did this exercise, I don't know, six months ago or whatever. It was like, I forget what it's called, but basically like your ideal life in 10 years and like write it in detail. I love that.

And you're spot on too, because then it's like, we'll revisit this and see like what has changed in yours. It can be like the most minute detail, but that can change a lot. And that can definitely change like the way you approach the world, the values in which you embody. So it is important to revisit that often. And okay, here we are. I'm going to hold you accountable and you do the same for me. So yeah.

I will. And the funny thing too, is that as humans, we are, we're kind of really bad at lying to ourselves. Like we, we create and we love integrity. So when something's off, um, we feel it or we know it. And then like, or at least I'm really, really, really attuned to when I'm not

acting or being integrous with myself and i'm like okay what's wrong like either either i've changed my values and i just don't know it yet or um i'm acting in a way that's not in accordance with my values or something's up because something's off and like it just feels off yeah for sure

And I think you brought up a really interesting point that I've recently like really in the power of intentionality. Like we talked about the squiggly line and, you know, like when you're young taking risks and all that. And I don't know that I had so much intentionality because I didn't know what was out there. But Jason and I talk about this all the time of like, okay, what do we want out of this life? And like writing that shit down and then like, okay, what are we going to do about that? And that changes. And like the idea of, um,

how that changes in what we're doing about it is really impactful. And so I think that's part of journaling too, that I didn't even know that I was doing, but just like getting those thoughts out. You know, I do look back. It is funny because I always envisioned living in Montana with a great career, but it wasn't like this. Like I didn't, I couldn't have pictured this. And so looking back, I'm like, Oh shit.

Like intentionality is a real thing. It works, you know? And so taking a moment and writing stuff down and then just subconsciously having that in your head is really powerful. Yeah.

The 10 years thing, my dad also shared that with me about like maybe five years ago because there was this Harvard professor. I forget. It was a woman, I think. And she started having her students do this. It's the same woman because I wrote it. Yes. Who is it? Do you know who it is? It's Lisa Congdon.

There you go. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So she was doing these like – she did this thing with her students and she had them all write it in extreme detail. And then she asked if they had ever had a perfect day. And every single one of them said yes. It was like I had that exact day at one point in my life. And just being able to paint that picture, I think it's probably a subconscious thing. But I think that's really, really, really important to do. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. The other cool thing I love about her and that story is she actually took a class from Milton Glaser, who was the original designer of like the I Love New York and all that. But so he's the one that kind of taught her this. So she did it a long time ago. And then

Kind of forgot about it and then found her journal like five years later or whatever. And like half the stuff that she had written had come to fruition. And, you know, she was like, oh my gosh, this is extraordinarily powerful. So that's why she started teaching her students. And so whether or not you're like actively striving towards or planning towards just like spending the moments to be like, huh, what is my potential? What do I want? There is definite power in that. 100%.

At this point in time, what do you want? Oh man, we got big plans. So this summer, Jason and I just hosted our first conference called Arcadia, which brought together 50 revenue leaders in Montana for like, our goal was to remove them from their day-to-day. So we hosted in Montana at a glamping resort. You were super helpful with this. So thank you and your help on promoting. And to really like help them realize that they are

are people outside of their jobs and that like there's a really tremendous community around them

So it went off like better than we could have ever imagined. So, you know, long-term Jason and I would love to like own a property in which we could host these ourselves. But we're definitely having another next summer. So stay tuned. But like, you know, there's also that community of people is really invested. So like, what do we, how do we continue to lift them up and how do we continue to be conduits for like,

creating those intentional connections and helping people be the best they can be. So that's the headspace we're in right now. So we're definitely in the dreaming and scheming phase of life. That's fun. How do you successfully dream and scheme with your husband and partner? We're learning, you know, because it's one thing. I'm very action oriented. Jason is

extraordinarily creative and has half a million ideas. So, you know, he can have an idea. I'm like, okay, what are we going to do about it? And so there's like a,

So that's an interesting partnership. And then like, how can we still be each other's best friends while not crossing the boundaries of like managing each other versus, you know? So we're definitely learning through that, but I do think it's exactly what we're just talking about. Like, let's write it down. Let's make a plan. I love that. This has been absolutely incredible. I want to hit you with a couple of rapid fire questions. Okay. I'm ready. I think. We'll do it.

I think you are. Okay. Question one, what advice would you give yourself or your daughter now reflecting on your own journey? Try everything and say yes. And that's pretty much it. Why? Because the universe responds to yeses. You never know what opportunity arises. You're never going to regret a conversation you have or an opportunity you take. You're going to learn something from it. Love that.

Second, what advice would you give to young women who want to be both successful in their career and also in their family? Find a great partner who can support you in that. And this is not a you versus the world. It's you and your partner versus the world. So have open communication on that.

And then also have your values, you know, pretty cemented so that when you are faced with opportunities that don't fit you or that are clearly against kind of what you're going for, you can confidently walk in the other direction. I love that.

And then my last question for you. So statistics right now are about 50%, 60% plus divorce rate, which is obviously not good. How do you protect and strengthen your relationship on a day-to-day basis? We never get complacent. So always being very patient.

forward with how we're feeling and how grateful we are for the other person. Do you feel like you and Jason have the same pace as well? Because that's something that somebody told me once. She was like, I found somebody with the same pace as me and I was with somebody that did not have the same pace as me before. And it's just an entirely different life when somebody can run next to you. Yeah, I love that. I think so. For the most part, yes. I mean, there's moments where like, I suck at sitting still.

Jason is really great at watching football. And so like, this is not a quick answer to your rapid fire, but like that's taken some work on my part to be like, well, those are my expectations of myself and I can't impose them on him. So I think, yes, find somebody who runs at the same pace as you, but you have to be realistic and that's not going to be in every facet of your life.

And then you have to like find ways that like, if I have these expectations of like the house has to be clean before I sit on the couch, you have to communicate that. And that's also not necessarily fair to impose on your partner. Was that hard for you to, to, I guess, change inside of yourself over time? Totally still is. Sometimes I'm like, get off, get off. What are you doing? But he's definitely like,

And he's certainly improved on that too. So had I not communicated about that, then you just harbor anger and things get resentful and that's never good.

That's never good. Thank you so, so, so much for you sharing your story, bouncing around on all of these topics, leadership, family, relationships, et cetera. This has been so much fun. And I'm so glad that we finally got to do this. Likewise. Ella, what you're doing here is great. So thank you so much for having me. I'm honored. I hope that you found this episode enriching. I would love to hear your thoughts if you would like to write a rating order.

be fantastic. You can also follow me at it. I'm looking forward to our next episode. Cheers. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that.