#42 - How to Stop Being A People Pleaser At Work - Angie Parker
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When you are excellent, you become unforgettable. Welcome to IndieWay. I am your host, Tia Valencian, and this is a First Humanity Podcast.

Welcome back to the In Bloom podcast. I'm Ella, and today we're exploring something that I think about a lot. What success really means to each of us. I recently sat down with Angie Parker, who brings a really interesting perspective to this question. What struck me most in this conversation wasn't just her impressive background, but how she thinks about success. While many of us are caught up in the traditional metrics, the job titles, the achievements, the external validation, Angie looks at it a little bit differently.

For her, success is about being comfortable in your own skin and showing up authentically for others. And when you learn about her path, you understand why her perspective carries weight. She's someone who helps founders regain their most precious resources, time and attention. With 15 years of experience supporting everyone from Air Force colonels to startup CEOs, she's developed a philosophy she calls Go Fast and Fix Things.

She's also part of the 1% who served as airborne service members in the air. During our talk, we covered quite a bit of ground, why traditional definitions of success might be holding you back, how to maintain strong relationships while pursuing ambitious career goals, the unexpected connection between facing your fears and building self-trust, a fresh approach to networking that focuses on genuine connection and giving, practical ways to balance inner drive with outer calm, real talk about couples therapy and building strong relationship foundations.

how to recognize when comfort is holding you back versus when it's serving you. One thing that I really appreciated about this conversation was Angie's honesty about her journey. She shares openly about the moments of uncertainty and how she's learned to define success on her own terms. So whether you are navigating your career path, thinking about relationships, or just curious about a different perspective on success, I think you'll find some valuable insights in this conversation. All right, let's dive in.

Hello, Angie. Today, I want to start out asking you a question that I've been thinking a lot about. What is your definition of success? I think success to me is feeling comfortable and confident with myself, right? Like the things I do, I say this a lot. I say, I am enough. I do enough. I have enough. And that is

is success to me. You know, it's not so much the what's in my bank account or what's on my resume. You know, to me, I think it's how did I show up for other people? And, you know, I have to sleep with myself at night in my own head and I have to like myself. And so I think at the end of the day, success is being happy with who you are and how you're going through the world and treating others.

Did you always feel like that or was that something that you grew in yourself? I mean, I said it to you just as much as I said it back to myself. So it's a continuous learning thing because I think I am programmed like a lot of people to say, oh, success is the resume. Success is the bank account. That is sort of the world that we live in. And I want to opt out of it to the extent that I can, you know, bring some success.

Calm to life. Yeah, that's very interesting that you value calm as a busy entrepreneur and chief of staff. Can you tell me about your background and kind of your journey to chief of staff and then specifically highlight the parts of your journey that have made you really, really, really value this calm? Yeah.

Yeah. So I grew up in Florida on the Space Coast, due east of Orlando and all the theme parks. So I grew up watching all the rockets and shuttles and launches. It was amazing. I actually, as a kid, we were so close to the across the river that our neighborhood we descended upon with tourists.

And so I would sell not just lemonade and like rice kistri treats, but I would sell parking in our corner lot yard. Oh, wow. I made so much money as a kid, candy money. It's not even funny. So I've been an entrepreneur since like a very early age. But I knew that unlike my family, I'm working out of the Cape, Cape Canaveral and NASA. That wasn't for me. And I have a very dear uncle who, I,

I was in the Air Force and I was like, you know what? I think I want to do that. And so I joined the Air Force. I flew on a plane called AWACS, which is a basically it's a big radar dome on the top of the planes, like an air traffic control tower on a plane. So a mobile air traffic control tower. And instead of keeping planes apart,

we put fighter aircraft together. And so we go real high up and we control fighter aircraft. So we have that God's eye view of wartime combat and control. Wow.

And so, yeah, it was really cool. Less than 1% of all Air Force are airborne. And so I was airborne and had to go through SEER school and survival training and water survival and some really tough technical school as well. So a couple hundred hours flying with the Air Force and then did my four years and got out and didn't re-enlist. But I had made my way to Seattle.

And because my job didn't exist in the civilian world, I relied on my secondary duties, which were in the office of the director of operations, the number three in my squadron. So I leveraged very basic office management skills and landed in a startup position.

Unbeknownst to me, I didn't even really think I knew what the word startup meant. I had no awareness of it coming out of the military. And I think a little bit of nature and nurture of the military in me, plus my personality, I got bored easily. And I was like, hey, what are you doing? Can I do that? Or as the CEO or founder, should you be doing that?

you know, I can do payroll or I can write some blog posts or I can round up some, you know, testing and find some bugs and such in the, in the code. And, um,

very quickly worked my way up to the right hand man to the founder and CEO and co-founders. And that has been my path ever since. So I've had, I have over 15 years of startup ops and executive support for colonels, CEOs and founders of all varieties. And, you know, I think I was born a helper. Joining the military was just one facet to that and,

As well as the chief of staff role. Like I dig it. Like this is, this is my jam. I get to solve really crazy hard problems that are varied. And I also am naturally at a fast pace, even though I might appear calm, I enjoy the fast paced startup life. And so by day I'm community operations and marketing at a early stage veteran founded veteran focused VC firm. And,

And then by night, I am chief of staff to an executive director at Culture and Sports, which is a nonprofit organization dedicated to addressing toxic sports culture in organizations. So that is...

in a nutshell about, you know, how I came to chief of staff role and my love of entrepreneurship as well. I have had two startups myself. I'm secretly working on a third in the zero free hours that I have. I'm a lifelong learner. I am drawn to hard tasks and learning new things. I'm very analytical.

analytical. And what else? A fun fact, I have not eaten fast food for over 15 years. Wow. And yeah, and I haven't bought new clothes since 2019. I've been doing like thrift stores or thread up. So I hadn't bought anything from a store or Amazon. So

Wow. I'm going to ask you about that in a little bit because I would totally love to hear about that. I love clothes, but I also love finding those pieces that you never expected to. And that's my favorite thing about thrift stores is that you go to them, you don't know what you're going to find. And then sometimes you just stumble upon these gems and it's like the best thing ever. Yes. Yeah. Also, the fashion industry is not so great for the environment, nor are pocketbooks. Yeah.

True. Very, very, very true. I wanted to go back to whenever you were talking about, you know, being in that 1%. Was that something that you worked for? Or was that something that it just like happened to be that you and your class or like, was it a goal that you had that you were like, okay, I know that this is not something that normally happens, but I'm going to make it? I had no real awareness that of like the percentage. So I

After high school, I tried college for about a year and realized, you know, 19-year-old Angie isn't really equipped to continue successfully doing this. So I had a couple of credits underneath me. I took the military entrance test and I scored really, really high.

My, my uncle Eric actually wrote me hand wrote two pages from the back of like electronics 101. Cause that's part of a portion of the test as well. And so I, I scored really well across all areas. And so no job in the military was out of reach for me as an enlisted, not officer, but enlisted. And I also went in going, you know, coached by my uncle Eric. He said, well,

Don't accept a job that you think you're going to hate because you will hate the years that you're in and you're stuck there. So get a job that you really like. And so I was a woman who scored really well on the ASVAB, the entrance test.

And I was also very determined and adamant and stuck to my guns and fired up about getting a good job. And so I was like, I'm not going to sit behind a desk. I'm not going to be finance. I'm not going to be like maintenance or something boring. And they're like, okay, well, what about flying? I was like that. I'll take that. I don't know what that means or what the job is. But once I got in, I realized that, hey, this is,

The longest tech school, any enlisted job is like a year long. It's super technical radar systems, computer systems as a 20 year old. Like what? I was just for sure I was not going to pass and that they would figure out at some point that I was an idiot. But I just kept passing the test like each course one after another.

And then to include the physical tests of POW training, survival training, weapons. So all kinds of really cool things. And it really made me who I am. So, yeah, only after the fact did I look back and go, wow, that's some pretty cool stuff. I had no idea I was raising my hand for that. But this is awesome.

That's incredible. That's incredible that you ended up doing that. Did you, so you said that you've always moved at a fast pace. Like this has always been the, I don't know, the speed that you like to do your life. I think so. And looking back, you know, there's like the timeline of your life and looking back, you can, you can make meaning of your past. Right. And I think the meaning that I tell the story that I tell is like,

I don't like to stagnate and I can tell in very specific points of my life when I felt like I was stagnating and I was like, Ooh, this is not comfortable. I do not like this. I cannot spend my life in Titusville, Florida, you know, going where I thought, you know, it's considered nowhere. Um,

Yeah. So definitely I move at a fast pace, even though I think I come across as calm. I don't like to sit still. And I like to do hard things and I like to, I'm very goal oriented. Is this innate? That sounds like a resume stuff, but it's, it is really actually me. Is that innate or is that something that you feel like you built inside of yourself or maybe like even inside of the military, that was something that was, you know, built inside of you?

That's a tough question, actually. I think there's a lot of layers to that question because it's nature and nurture again, right? Like how I was raised was not exactly an easy path. It was a tumultuous childhood. It was very stressful and sometimes dangerous. And I think

That lack of safety as a very young child, there's something called adverse childhood experiences, ACEs. And there's like a score of, I think it's like eight or nine. When you have a high ACEs score,

you compensate to feel safe, both externally and about yourself. And then as an adult, those traits come out where you have to succeed and be successful and do well and be a perfectionist and be super smart and all these things. So I think some of it is a compensation from what happened.

But also I feel like I was born this way too. I was born a fighter. I often wish that I could be like reincarnated as like a army ranger in the 275 and, you know, altruistic go-kill bad guys. That would be awesome. Yeah, it would be. It would be really cool. But instead I channeled that into...

Going fast and fixing things. That's my little chief of staff motto. I really, really appreciate when, first off, people are so self-aware to who they are and where they've come from and the stories that have made them.

And it sounds like you've done a lot of reflection on that and come to understand yourself in a way that makes it easier for you to both accept yourself in the moment and also make decisions toward the future and toward what you want to become, the goals that you have. You were talking about how you've had moments in your life where you've sat down and you've been like, okay, looking around, I am just way too comfortable. I'm too stagnant. I'm too comfortable. I don't feel good.

have you ever questioned the validity of comfort? Like, have you, have there been any periods of your life where you're just like, maybe I do want to, to like foster a little bit more comfort. Maybe I don't want to achieve or like seek after something so much. Or have you always been a seeker? Yeah. I think I might say that I, I do seek out. However, I would say that there's also something, a comfort in,

facing my fears like like literally jumping out of an airplane like that scared me and so I did it and I didn't do it strapped to another human I did it on my own like out of the military civilian on my own like took a class to jump out on my own like I was like if I'm gonna do this it's gonna be like the full full thing but also like stagnation means that like I'm not comfortable and

I'm not comfortable settling in my perspective in settling where I am. So how can I fix that and get back to a comfort level? Because I do have expectations of myself to some degree. Like I didn't go to college the normal path. A lot of my family didn't. And so I went to the Air Force. I'd had a career. And then I was terrified of going back to college. I thought that it was something I couldn't do that.

that I wasn't smart enough. Even though I did this amazing job in the Air Force, I thought I wasn't smart enough to go back to school and get a degree. So I put on this pedestal and I just, it was a terrifying thing. And I got to a point, you know, where you hit a wall, everyone, everyone's wall is farther along, but like, or wherever their wall is, is unique. But

I finally hit this wall where I was like, on my deathbed, top three things I would regret. One of them is not going to school, getting a college degree. That's just me. And so I hit the wall and I was like, hey, husband, this is what I want for myself. I have my GI Bill, so it's not like I'm going to not bring in money.

I have the GI Bill to pay for it because of my military service. And my job is stagnating and I can't go anywhere else because I'm literally second to the CEO and founder and he's not going anywhere. Right. So this is the time I feel like I'm stagnating. I have this this fear that I'm ready to confront and I need to do this for myself.

And to feel comfortable again. So there's a lot to comfort, right? Like, why are you uncomfortable? Or why are you comfortable? Are those for good reasons or for bad reasons? Like, what is your coping mechanisms? Are you uncomfortable because you're, you've got a bad coping? Or are you uncomfortable because it's a good coping mechanism?

I love this point. I like the fact that you draw a distinction between stagnation and comfort because I think a lot of people put those two things together where it's like stagnation and comfort are synonymous. But like the idea that stagnation is actually uncomfortable and whether or not you acknowledge the discomfort, it's still uncomfortable. And

while like it's not always going to be pleasurable. Like, you know, let's say you're a runner, like you're comfortable running. Right. And, and it's not that running is always going to be pleasurable or that it's never going to hurt your joints or that it's never going to, you know, be difficult mentally, but like you're comfortable doing it. And I think that's, that's a really, really valuable thing that you, that you, you know, made that difference between.

I want to call back to that, that conversation about going to school. So you're talking about the fears that we have, right. And like the fears that, um, that hold us back and like, we have walls. Do you see that like in all the people that you're mentoring, the people that you're around, um, that a lot of people are maybe underestimating their potential, um,

because they are too scared to face a fear or how would you explain that? Maybe I don't like to judge others, um, or tell people what they should do. I really don't like the word should most of the time. Um,

I have recently come into, you know, I've got a new mentor who is very direct with me and she calls me out on my stuff and she says, no, what you're doing right now, what you're saying right now, you're negating your capabilities. And I don't even catch it.

And so I like I love her for that. And I I need people like that in my life. But other people might not be ready to hear that for themselves. And that's OK. And so I don't find it in my mentoring of others because I also have mentors. But for my mentor mentees.

I first have to get to know them before I start creeping towards the, what are you going to do here? And it's unique to each person because like with your friends or family, like in relationships, like I have had girlfriends where I'm like, your boyfriend is a jerk. Like,

I'm pretty sure he's cheating on you, but I can't keep dissing on your boyfriend all the time and telling you how bad of a human I think he is because it's going to come in between our friendship. And at some point she's going to go, even though you might be right and she's not seeing it, she's going to push me away because I keep bad mouthing her boyfriend.

So rather than saying doing that, she, I just have to sit with her and be with her as a friend until she hits her wall of, I can no longer take this. This is no longer okay behavior. It's not for me to tell her when that wall is or where that wall is. It's just me as a friend being there.

If and when she hits it and if and when she goes into a well, like go down there and sit with her. I'm not going to tell her how to get out or what to do or that she'll get over it. Like, yeah, there's a lot there. Yeah, I like that. Tell me about your experience with fear and the wall that you hit. Yeah.

I think with jumping out of a plane, it was just, it's an obvious fear, right? Like I think it's an obvious human fear of, of that. But funny thing about that was it was all the prep that was the most fearful because the actual act of it was,

and i was the last one out of the plane before me was this old guy he was literally like 91 or 92 was his birthday or something and he was jumping out of a plane i might do strap to another guy but like this old man if if this old man can jump out of this plane like if he can do it i can do it too and um

And once you jump out, that's the funny thing is like, you have no frame of reference, like a roller coaster. Like you can see how fast you're going because things are whizzing by you or like trail running. You feel like you're running really, really fast because things are really close. But when you jump out of a plane, you don't necessarily see the plane that you jumped out of. And also it's doing this. And so it's,

your stomach doesn't drop. You have no sense of falling. You're just there. So the actual physicalness, the physical feeling that you have of jumping off of a roof into a pool or something or a diving board, you don't have that. So things aren't actually maybe as scary as they seem. It's just what you've built them up to be. And that's exactly what I did with college.

like I made it this thing that I could never accomplish that I put myself in a box and I said, that's just not me. I'm not smart enough. I, I just, I'm not capable of doing that for my own, you know, unhealed wounds. So, and, and just over time life and having a great partner and good friends and working on myself and,

Not comfortable with like the stagnation of me and my fears. Finally reaching the point where, you know, I'd hit the wall. And also I had, I'm lucky to have the safety net of like my GI bill and, you know, some savings and a partner who works also works. And so everything lined up to go, okay, this is when you're going to do it. You're going to, you've reached the point where you can no longer accept it.

Wow. What do you think led to you reaching that point? Couples counseling. Really? Yeah. My husband and I, before we got married, we did two years of couples counseling once a week. Phenomenal. Absolutely recommend it. 10 out of 10.

the counselor brought it up, like, you know, because there's, there's reactions that you have, but it's like, if you do a five wise analysis, like in business school, they teach you, you know, five wise or like, you know,

root cause analysis. Well, why are you angry or frustrated? Well, it's because of this. Well, why, why this? Well, cause actually this, Oh, that's interesting. Say more. Oh, cause it comes from this. And then you're like, now you're in childhood and you're going, I'm, I'm not smart. My mom never, you know, blah, blah, blah. Or my parents or whatever. Like I, you know, my teacher didn't whatever, you know? And so you're like, Oh, that's where it comes from. But it, it presents itself, you know, as you know,

whatever. So I think it was just like, I wanted more for myself career wise. And I kept being told or kept thinking that I would never get there because I didn't have a degree, even though there are plenty of people in the world who have gotten to really amazing places without a degree. I didn't feel like I was that kind of special either. Like I wasn't a special kind of smart and that I couldn't go to college and be successful. Yeah.

But because I was so at that wall of like frustration with not being able to do it, that it was like a fire under me. Like it was a fire in my stomach. Like I couldn't, it wouldn't go away until I did it. What do you think it gave you now that you have it? More courage for sure. Absolutely learned a ton. I mean,

I learned so much. I loved every single class. I absolutely just, I wish I could be a lifelong learner. I wish I could just be in college forever. But I think going as an adult to like,

Every single class, I was like, oh, my God, I see how this like in the real world, like I can apply it. I wish I would have known this with this client or this accounting problem or this, you know, management thing or entrepreneurial marketing. Oh, my God, this makes so much sense. I loved I loved every single class almost.

That's so funny. Me and my brothers joke about this as well, because we all love school. I'm like, I wish I could just take one class per, you know, six months or one class per three months just to be around people that are like asking questions and to learn from professors that just absolutely love certain topics. It's one of my favorite things ever. Yeah, agreed. I'm curious.

Why did you want career success? So you were saying that like, you know, you had gotten to a certain point where you were just like, I want to achieve more. Why was that important to you? Like, why was that one of your primary values, if you will? I don't know that I have a clear answer. I think it's just, it's sort of just innately me. Like, I think that's the nature part, you know, um, I want to keep going. Like I want to see how far I can go.

I want to make things in the world, right? Like I don't have kids. I don't have dogs at the moment. I have plants, but that's about it. I want things for myself already.

you know, I want to push myself and it's not to say that that's any better, but it's just different than someone who is totally okay with, you know, working a nine to five, you know, office manager, they clock in, they clock out, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, that's probably way less stress. You have a lot more work-life balance, but I like work. I like

what I do and I want to see how far I can go. And I don't, I don't know that there's any other explanation other than maybe some childhood trauma, but also like, I think I might've been born that way too. I think that's a perfect answer. What you mentioned your husband a couple of times, what are the pillars of your life that allow you to be successful in all these things that you're striving after? Yeah, definitely support. Um,

at the right amount, right? I can't just do my job and then bring my stress to, to my husband, Charles, and just download to him entirely. Right. That's not really fair. Um, that's emotional labor for him, um, and vice versa. But, you know, I think for us, it really is the pillar of like,

Communication, I mean, is key. That's why we did couples counseling and couples communication therapy really is really what it was. Learning about someone else and what has happened to them in their life allows you to understand that the words you use can be interpreted a different way. Right. And so.

there's this concept of like, there's a book called the four agreements that I absolutely love. And that was an inflection point for my life and self-awareness. But like, if you imagine yourself in a bubble, everybody's bubble is different. And it's like a filter that's made over time. And it looks different for everyone. And,

That filter is made up by things that have happened to you as a kid and things that have happened to you as an adult and things that you just naturally start to believe about yourself. And as you get nicked in that bubble, you can spiral down even further into the negative self-talk and what you believe about yourself. But understanding someone else's bubble and what its shape is.

allows me to, you know, so if, if this is Charles's bubble and I say something like this, but going through his bubble, it transforms it. And he hears something else because of his filter. I meant it one way and he interpreted it another because of his filter by understanding what his filter looks like. I can speak to him in a way that doesn't trigger him and vice versa.

And I know that, you know, what is important to him, I can treat him better. I can speak better. We can communicate better. So definitely communication is a pillar. But also, like, I know that he is a good human. Like, he doesn't mean to hurt me with his words. That is not his intent. And so I think it's giving people the benefit of a doubt, too.

And also letting things go that book, The Four Agreements, man, it is so good. So the four agreements are be impeccable with your word. I think that translates to integrity. Don't take anything personally. It's a reflection of them. The third one is don't make assumptions. Be empathetic and curious and ask questions. And the fourth is always do your best. So don't take anything personally.

That means that if Charles is having a bad day and he maybe doesn't take the trash out or do something or leaves a mess or says something a little short, I don't have to take it personally. It's him. It's not me.

That's such a weight off my shoulders. And now I don't have this like invisible IOU bag for him either. Oh, he's, he left the dishes out or didn't take the trash out. Oh, he snapped at me. And now you have this IOU bag and you're like, and then you eventually it gets to like, where you just have to like, you can't carry it anymore. You got to take it off and throw it at him. Right. And so then that's when fights happen. And so it's like, be impeccable with your word as best you can. That way you don't trigger people. And also like,

Be a good human. Don't take anything personally because it's not you. Like if you are walking around the grocery store and you turn an aisle and you bump into somebody and they scowl at you, it was an accident. Them having a bad day and scowling at you isn't about you. It's them. That's to me, it's infinitely like, it lifts a weight off of me. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, that sounds like it does. What made y'all both enough receptive to go through couples therapy in the beginning, you know, and then to actually hear each other's story out and then to hear the way that the other person needed to be communicated to and to actually change because of that? I think we were both on the same wavelength of wanting more self-awareness and wanting to treat other people with respect. Like,

everyone might say that they want those things, but like on what level do you actually like act those out? Like everyone says they like to go for walks, but do you actually go for a daily walk? Right. Or like for us, it was really important. Um, my husband is over 20 years sober. And so he has this system of support that he's used to from AA, um, and from his men's group. And so, um,

by saying those things, you already can kind of tell that he is a human that prioritizes working on himself, right? Because at the end of the day, that's all you can do. You can't change someone else. You cannot change someone else. That's a snippet that we use. Like you can't, you have to accept them as they are. And hopefully you can pick someone that you can accept those little things because of everything else is so good. Right.

And accepting someone is on you again, right? So we prioritize all of that stuff. It's important to both of us. And it's important to me. It's almost critical in professional life as well that I feel heard, understood and acknowledged. And so I need this from my partner. I need this level of understanding. I can't accept anything else.

And so a catalyst for going to this was a misalignment and a breakdown of communication. But yet we were so solid and wonderful everywhere else that it was worth for me doing something I'd never done, going to counseling. It was worth it for him. It was worth it for the relationship, the potential I saw in us. Well, how long have y'all been together?

I think next month is six years that we're married. And I think this is also the 10 years that we've been dating this year. Wow. What did you love most about him when you met him? Oh, he was adorable. I loved his smile. And I liked how he treated other people. We met on an adult master's rowing team.

And so we were friends. Yeah. We were friends first and we were both doing something that we love. We were both out in the world, like doing a really fun thing, um, with great people. And, um, which I, I highly recommend for meeting people like go out and do the things you're going to do anyway and meet people that like to do those things. Um,

And he was just adorable and cute and he was kind and had a really cute smile. And I liked, I just liked everything about him. You mentioned like the day-to-dayness of it. So leaving dishes or, you know, taking out the trash or whatever. How do you maintain your, you know, respect for him and just like love of him over time? Because I feel like for a lot of people, what happens is over time,

that respect and love dwindles, or it's just like little things start to bother them. And then they don't protect the idea of who they are in their minds. So, you know, over time, it's like, you're not, you're not even the person that, you know, I felt like you once were, which isn't really fair, but I feel like that starts with the individual first. It's like, how can you protect their image in your own mind? Yeah. I think it's a choice.

I honestly think it's a personal choice. I love Charles in spite of him leaving a dish out. Like, I don't think I'm going to find, you know, and it's not, I don't consciously think like this, but like, I don't, I'm not going to get this, this entire, this great full package of a human and who doesn't leave dishes out or his toothbrush on the counter. Like those, those are things that bother me. You know, those aren't,

hurtful, like attacks on, on me. Right. So I think it's a, it's a conscious effort. And I know for me personally, it is absolutely a conscious effort to let it go. Just roll, roll off my back, let it go. Why hold on to that?

against a human that I adore and love and think the world of and think is a great human being. Like, why would I hold a plate against him? I definitely know 23 year old Angie would have and definitely did with her boyfriends back in the day and partners. And it's just over time that it's like, I don't, I don't want to be that human. I don't,

I'm so much happier and lighter when I can just go, Oh, Charles, you know, because he does it to me. He gives me grace all the time. But I really think that grace to us of a good word, like it is, it is easy. And this is, I think a nature thing. I think I was born this way. I think it was, I was born, um,

able to give grace to others easily. It's hard to give it to myself. That's a whole other thing, but I can give it in spades to other people, especially when they're someone as wonderful as Charles. Have you found any tactics that are really helpful when you're say holding onto something that you know that you should let go of? Yeah. I kind of watch for patterns in myself. Like, okay,

It happened once. I'm not going to say anything. I'm going to let it go. But my, my brain, it's still going to be like cataloged, right? I can't help that, but like, I can help letting it go. But if it happens again, I'm like, all right, that's really annoying cataloged, letting go. But if it's a third time, we're like,

some number of times where I'm like, all right, this is, I've hit a wall on this behavior and I have to say something. And I, and I purposely make a point of saying, okay, I didn't hold it against you when you did it X, Y, and Z times on purpose, but this is the fourth or end time. And now it's really bothering me. And I, I'm, I need to say something because I

Otherwise it's going to cause an issue. Um, so I don't have an IOU bag, but it's cataloged if that makes sense. Um, and I try not to say it when there's tension or, um, we're already at like a frustrated level with work or life or whatever. And so it really is about finding the time to say, Hey babe, can I talk to you about something real quick? Just wanted to say like, that really annoyed me when you did that or said that, or really hurt my feelings. Um,

And you've done it in the past and it didn't hurt me then, but it's become a thing. And I just want you to know that that hurts my feelings or whatever. And he hears me. He's really good about that and vice versa.

Wow. I love that. Um, I might come back and ask you a couple of tips in our rapid fire at the very end, but, um, I wanted to comment on your presence. So one of the things that person who introduced us, shout out James, um, said about you was that when you walk into a room, it feels different. And that's one of the things that he admires most about you. And, um,

I have noticed that. I watched a couple of videos that were online of yours and then even throughout this whole conversation, like the amount of strength that you embody, but also warmth is very admirable. Have you worked on this or is this something that you feel was partially innate, like a part of your personality? It's not something I've worked on for sure. Like that's not the case at all. But I think I...

I have an inner chaos, but an outer calm. I think my brain is going in a mile a minute with all kinds of thoughts. And I, but I, but I do that. One thing I do am conscious of doing and that I practice is like is sitting still, even if I'm super, you know, all over the place in my head, I can still sit and be calm and try and be present and,

One time when I was a kid, I think I was like 17 or 18, my aunt and uncle and cousins, we all went to Busch Gardens. And I had the little kids with me, like they were like five and six, and they were off with their older daughter just to spend time with the older one, one-on-one with her. And we were going to meet up at a ride. And

We made it into the ride like staging area, but we knew that our family was in the next like cohort behind us. And so we just sat on a bench and waited for their bride to come back and for them to join us. But some kids my age hopped the thing and were they skipped the line. And I'm like my inner justice warrior was like, no, no.

So I like stood up. I was terrified. I was literally like shaking. I was probably physically shaking. But I was like, this is not okay. You're giving all of us teenagers a bad rap. You need to go back to the end of the line and wait like everyone else. It was a boy and two girls.

the boy got in my face and the girls were just shouting nasty things at me in front of like a six and seven year old girl. And I was like, Oh heck no, this is not happening. So I, you know, I stood up and I had a presence and I was like, really dude, you're going to throw punches at me for being a jerk. Um, and so like the security people came, he was literally going to throw punches. Like he was getting physical. No way. Yes. And my uncle saw this and that man is terrifying. Yeah.

He hopped the fence and he just came running. He's like, he's a physically intimidating man, former Marine and everything. And especially with his kids nearby and he treats me like a kid of his. And so like Papa bear too, like it was terrifying, but everyone afterwards, they were like, Angie, you were so calm. Yeah.

really? I'm like, my face is probably red. I was shaking physically. My voice is probably gone. Like they were like, wow, you look so calm. Nah, that's incredible. That like,

So, I mean, this is something that a lot of people struggle with, including me. I have the hardest time being present whenever there's a ton on my mind. Like whenever I'm trying to think through things or trying to process things or there's a problem that's just absolutely pestering me, like I cannot be present. It's so, so, so, so difficult for me. And I bet also in your work environments, like it's so valuable to be able to say, okay, even though

you know, this, this thing's bothering me. Like I need to compartmentalize so that I can make effective decisions right now. Um,

Have you learned how to do that? And also, I mean, I guess the military is also an interesting place because let's say you're, you know, flying planes or jumping out of planes or, you know, even operating some sort of machine. Like you have to be able to regulate yourself and make good decisions in a moment when maybe fear is really intense or maybe there are a lot of thoughts on your mind or maybe you're afraid of dying. Like so many things. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a lot. Um, I'd say in the military, you, you are trained and trained and everything is on repetition. So that doing the really scary things that will kill you or will kill other people, um, like turning on a big radar, um, on a plane with jet fuel, you know, or refueling in air, like energy and fuel don't go together. Well, um, uh,

You do things so many times on repeat that you, you have a process and that's what keeps people safe. I think the military is training and repetition, but in the civilian world, I think for me, I also, I struggle with that too. And sometimes I have little hacks that I do. And so hacks are things like, I like,

become aware that I'm rabbit holing. I'm like, this is not important. How did I end up? We call it yak shaving. Like, how did I end up shaving a yak? I was trying to just make an email.

Here I am shaving a yak. What the? And so like, then it's like awareness. Oh, right. And then now it's like setting up systems. Like I have multiple physical screens, but also digital extra screens on my computer. And so I like for things like this, I get a separate window, a separate display.

display screen and put only that window there and make the other monitor completely empty. And I move away my keyboard and I only have my iPad and my pen to take notes. That way I can, like, I'm forcing myself.

to focus. I'm not looking at Slack. I'm not looking at email. I'm not looking in that project I'm making. I'm here and I turn off my phone or face it another way or keep it in another room. It's like I force it on myself because I know that I have to do that. And also things like I have a sticky note in front of me that says, give it five minutes.

think don't react like I know when I when I get stressed I look at that like I I have literal physical muscle memory and looking at that thing and going yeah okay pause process and it's just hacks it's you know it

Yeah. Speaking of hacks though too, that's how I approach mentoring and helping people too. I've been in a job search for a long time after graduating school and I was helping other people

to hack it coming back to me because I am terrible for asking for help. And so I hacked it without being conscious of it until I was conscious of like, oh, this is how I hack it. I'm giving, I'm freely giving and it will come back to me. But you can also freely give while being conscious of it too. There's nothing wrong with that. What you're building is an army of people who want good things for you.

There's nothing wrong with being purposeful about that. This is something that I also found really fascinating whenever I was looking at things that you had written and learning from all of those things that you've done prior. You really care about networking. Has that always been important to you? And why is that so valuable? I think you said something along the lines of getting to where we want through skill and hard work alone is a myth. Why do you believe that?

Yeah. Current version of Angie is definitely a networker and more extrovert than introvert. But 10, 12 years ago, Angie would have been a complete introvert. Well, not complete, way more so an introvert. And Angie before the military would have been an absolute mouse. Like I was terrified to speak. But now...

Now I realize, especially with the chief of staff role, which is so trust and relationship heavy. I mean, it's built on trust. You can't have the access that you need to go fast and fix things without having full trust from your principal. And there are things to get you there faster, but also you might see a chief of staff job posted, but the reality is that they're going to

turn to their network that they trust to fill that position. It's really rare for me to come across a chief of staff who blindly applied and got the role. I've been pinged many times for jobs that have never been posted. And in fact, most of my jobs currently have not been posted. And I still like

get pinged, "Hey Angie, are you looking for another thing? We have this job. We haven't posted it anywhere. We don't have a job description, but we're thinking of you." You've got to build your network so that people know what you're looking for. You have to tell everyone because they might not have a job for you, but they might know someone who does or might know a mentor or have great wisdom or tips or collaborators. Just like for founders, your network is

is work. Like if I, if we met, I'm going to send you a followup email with the thing I said I was going to do or introduce you to so-and-so or that is work, but that is much more mentally, physically, emotionally, um,

I can do that for days rather than the black hole of online, you know, job hunting, soul sucking, morale killing, right? That gets you nowhere, especially for this role. So it's, and I think it's also part of being, you know, born a helper, like networking is

allows me to help other people. Oh, I just saw this product. You need to try this thing or, oh, you need to talk to my friend. They can do that. Or my friend's an expert in this or, oh, I would love to help you about that. I love talking about customer discovery or whatever. And so when I realized that I was getting nowhere with my job hunt and that it was all about networking, I had a bit of a mini breakdown because it was so stressful doing it the old way. But

Once I turned on the networking machine that kept going and growing, it was so much more reliable, like relaxing and like enjoyable. I could do this all day. And so it was a real light bulb moment of like, I'm sorry, I really don't want to tell you this, but yeah, you're infinitely qualified. You have a PhD. Yeah.

in, you know, supply chain and operations and finance, but you can't find a job because you are not networking because nobody knows you exist. Yeah. The algorithm of LinkedIn might, but like, I'm sorry, but that's not how the world works anymore. And that's what I mean by like, you can't get by on merit and resume and LinkedIn profile alone, or even your GitHub repo, like

Sorry. Like, if you want a cool job at Anthropic or OpenAI, like, you kind of got to know someone. That is an underrated point that you just made. That was, this is exactly how...

how I stumbled into all of the roles that I've had. I met the right person and somehow, you know, I, they didn't even see my resume before they were interested in hiring me, but it was because we had a really, really awesome conversation, which indicated competence. And they were like, I think you can do the job. And,

And then we had a conversation about the job specifically and then everything else came. And then they posted the job description because it was a formality and like, and that was how, how the process went. Um, and I think there are a lot of people out there, including a lot of my friends who like,

are searching for jobs and they're, you know, doing the one click LinkedIn resume and they're trying to figure it out. And they're like, how are none of these jobs working out? But it's because, um, exactly what you said, you have to be somebody that, that people know. And, um,

I mean, when it comes to hiring, like hiring is a gamble. And so if people know you, it's less of a gamble. It's expensive. It's tough. They have to onboard you. Um, they don't want to gamble that, you know, you're not going to stay or that you're not actually quality that they want somebody that's a high bet, a high, high potential bet for just success. And so like, that's the best way for them to, to achieve that. Um, yeah.

So how can you be helpful, right? Like if networking is all about being helpful, I feel like the hard thing that people, especially younger people are trying to figure out is like, okay, I haven't built up that much. You know, I don't have that many friends that you can talk to. I don't know how to be helpful to you. Let's say you're talking to a CEO. Let's say that you want to build a network of really incredible individuals. How do you figure out the best ways to be helpful to people? Yeah.

Um, well, I would say first start with networking with your peers, right? Like you can definitely help your peers, resume reviews. Let's write a cover letter together, even though nobody reads these things. Let me introduce you to someone else, right? Um, let's go to this networking event together. Um, I would start with your peers because they are not competitors. They have completely different skill sets and interests. Um,

So start with your peers and you don't have to have anything to give. If you really just need help, allow someone to give you help. That's one thing that I recently learned as well as like you have to give the yin and the yang of give and receive. You have to let someone give you the chance to help you.

And so at the end of somebody giving you like a mentor session, I really don't like when the mentee says, Angie, you've given me so, so much. Like, how can I thank you? What can I do for you? And I'm like, no, man, don't take away from all the good stuff I just gave you. I just did that, you know,

Altruistically now you're making it, you know, extrinsically motivating. Like I know, dude, I did it because I wanted to just take it, take the help. Right. And so it's like two psychological hacks here. And this is science. One from anyway, people want to help you because we get a chemical feel good boost from

And two, another psychological feel good boost. People like to talk about themselves, you know, so I have a double whammy of, of feel good chemicals right now. Let other people, you know, help you knowing that they want to, and knowing that it makes them feel good. You don't have to give them, you know, maybe later on in your thank you email, you can go, Hey, you know, thanks so much, James, here's that book I was telling you about, or here's an article that I read about your industry. Um,

And just make a point or mark your calendar for two weeks later to just go, oh, check in. How are you doing? I remember you mentioned blah or this or that was happening. How to go. Have a personal CRM that you keep up with. People will notice. And make it easy for people to help you.

Write them an email, a thank you email that includes like a third person, three or five sentences about you and your resume so that they can always just one click forward to you. You've removed all barriers to them helping you. You have a calendar link so people can schedule with you, like remove all the barriers. Don't ask when they're available. Tell them when you are available and give them your calendar and like make it dead simple for them to help you.

And just, yeah, schedule your entire day of networking if you're job searching. I love that. Do you have a personal CRM? I try to hack one for myself, but it's also like the entrepreneur in me. It's like in my book of ideas, it's like number 1,287. It is really personal CRM. Like I, I totally want to do it.

What does that look like? Because I've tried to build a couple of personal CRMs and I've gotten the advice at a certain point to like build a CRM. But then the one that somebody else had advised was like really, really big and bulky. And I feel like at least whenever you're starting, simplicity is extremely important just to get it right. Like do the simple things well and then you can build on top of it. What works for you?

I mean a spreadsheet for one, and I'm not saying that I do this anymore, but I did start it and I, um, absolutely use my calendar to prioritize myself too. So like after this, I'll, you know, put it on my calendar, um, you know, in two weeks, check with, you know, check with Ella or, um, in, in a month, check back with Zach or whatever, or so-and-so, um, and like make a little note, but there's definitely, there's, um,

an article like somebody's blog post about how they did it and they had some really interesting um like criteria of like how useful is this person to you not in a negative way but like is this a really high value contact that you just made who like really could get you a job or is it just one of your peers so it's nice to meet right and so maybe you don't need to reach out to them every single month but the high value person you absolutely do um and there's nothing wrong with like

filtering people on that, you know, importance level. So different criteria for your own personal needs, like you'll figure out what those criteria are that you need to track. And like, I will, I will write down, like I take handwritten notes and then transpose them for like,

personal preference. I have like a gift list as well for my family. When somebody says something like, Oh, I want, you know, one of my friends wants a, um, she really misses having like a little pocket knife to like open packages or like feel safe in her car or whatever. And, but she was like, I want a pink one. And she said that she said that probably in like March,

I still remember it. And so I write it down so that I can like be thoughtful in my next interaction. Right. So I do that in my, in my networking as well. I love that. I've done like the sporadic moment where like somebody says something, I think I'm so cool. And so I write it down, but like, it's not all in one place. So then I literally never go back to it and I never remember it. But I bet if I scroll through my notes, it's like, Oh,

That would have been nice to remember. Yeah. Yeah. I do it a lot with my husband because he's always like amazed at my gift giving abilities. And I'm like, no, look, man, I hack it. I wrote it down. She said this. I wrote it down. And then they're surprised at Christmas when they get it too. And they're like, oh my God, this is awesome. Like you, you gave me the idea. Just remembered.

I love gifts. This is a hack. I love this because I feel like gifts are your moment and opportunity to show people that you listen and that you care and that you know them personally. And that's why it's so easy to give people gifts when you know them. And it's a lot harder to give people gifts when you don't know them at all. But to actually like put a system behind that is so, so brilliant. Yeah. Just, you know, the hacks over time, it just comes with age. You can't help it. Like,

You just, you just learn more. It's nice to share it though. It's nice. Cause I was like, you know, I would have liked to know these things. You know, I just recently took a personality, like work behavioral professional, like test called the Berkman test. I just got my, I love it. I just got my results yesterday and I,

It was so perfect for me, but also like it, that's me being analytical and self-awareness analytical. So it's like double extra good. But like, I was like, this is a gift I got to get everyone. Like I want everyone to have this. Like I want my, you know, 20 something year old step kids to,

I wish they had this information because I wish I had it at their age. I wish I had this level of awareness. Not so much that they can not make mistakes that I made because you got to go through your own things. I'll be there for them when they do. But if you at least plant a seed or share your story, they might...

unconsciously or unconsciously go, oh, maybe I won't date this guy or take this crappy job or maybe I'll prioritize this a little differently because of something I said or some nugget that I gave them. I love personality tests. That's one of my favorite. This is so good.

I'll have to look into it there. I think I've taken all of the ones that I've known about. Um, and the one that's been the most helpful for me was the big five personalities. I don't know if you've heard that one. It's,

Great. And then the other interesting thing that I was able to do was put together me and my boyfriend's results and see where we land in terms of like, okay, he's really high here. I'm really low here. And what's interesting is like I have a friend who I recommended they do it because they're always confused why they don't totally understand each other. Like their communication is like off. Right.

And they're opposite on so many things. Whereas like he and I are closer on a lot of things or like we land in the same areas. So I think like that was really valuable too because you look at somebody or you look at relationships or even yourself and you're just like, why am I like this? And just having that answer is so, so nice and recognizing that it's not a flaw. It's just like –

it's your makeup. Like that is how you, how you were built. And it's something to, um, to embrace because it comes with, you know, pros and it comes with strengths, but also to understand and to figure out and to, to, I guess like understand how you can leverage that to achieve your goals kind of.

Absolutely. And that's the stuff that you get in couples therapy as well. Like you'll do these exercises and then you go, wow, you think like that? That's so weird. Okay. Okay. And yeah, like, um,

I want my husband's out away on a camping trip with his buddies, but like when he gets back, I'm like, okay, welcome home. Required reading. Please, please read this. Please know me even more than you already do. I don't know that any of it's going to be a surprise to him, but I really need him to read this because it's so good. It makes so much sense. Yeah.

And I want him, I'm going to totally gift this to him for sure. It's a little bit expensive, but like it is so worth it. So it's definitely his Christmas gift. That's for sure. That's so cool. And I think it's so cool that you and he have that kind of relationship where it's like, I want you to know me. So read these things. Yeah. Society has changed so much. I know we're coming up on time, but it's like back in the day, like,

Women, you know, it was very traditional, quote unquote traditional. We had friends that were neighbors, like our women friends were our friends. You know, we gossiped and got out all of what we had to get out with our friends, not our partner, not our husbands. They were off at work, you know, they had a whole other life. And so when they came home, we weren't just like, well, maybe we were, but like we, they weren't there. They weren't our primary, like source of like divulging or like,

But now, like, I think relationships have this bigger expectation on not only are you my lover, you're also my best friend and my confidant. And like all these expectations, the dynamic of relationships has changed. And I know for sure for me, I definitely expect that. I want I definitely want best friend and lover and life partner. You know, I do ask for it all.

But I have friends who are like, oh, no, my husband is not my best friend. And they're perfectly happy because it works for their dynamic. But like, that's I feel like that's less rare or that's more rare. Sorry.

Less common.

You said that for you, it works to have both. Why do you think it works for you to have both? It's our personalities, I think, for sure. I am extroverted, but I don't have a large group of close friends. And so I'm on the line of introvert-extrovert, which this personality test also shows.

confirmed. I'm just over into extrovert. So like I do need the deep and meaningful one-on-ones and especially with my partner, it really matters to me. I can't, you know, nature nurture my personality. Like I, I can't be with someone who doesn't know literally everything about me. I just can't. I like that. Okay. Rapid fire questions. All right, let's go.

First question, what advice would you give your younger self, maybe your sister, if you have one, or maybe a friend, reflecting on your own journey? What advice would you give now? Listen to the tiny voice in the back of your head. Pay attention to your body. Listen to your body's responses to people and situations. If the hair on the back of your neck is standing up, it's probably for a good reason.

Trust yourself. I love that. Second question. What advice would you give to a young woman who wants career success, but also really, really values having a strong relationship? Go for it. You know, expect nothing less.

There's nothing wrong with that. Would we ask that of a man? We wouldn't get it all. You know, LFG. And then the last question, I want to call back to you saying that you haven't bought new clothes since 2019, which is incredible. Why did you initially make that decision? And has that been easy?

Initially, it was just out of pure curiosity and like budget. And it was COVID too. So getting a box of like used clothes to go through was kind of fun and cheap. And then it just kind of stuck. And then I went back to college and I had to take this writing course. And they're like, oh, what topic do you want to do? And I'm kind of an environmental person.

nut. And so I did a paper on fashion, fast fashion and like the environmental damage. And then I was like, okay, let's, let's see how long I can go. And I don't like malls anyway. They, they really stress me out. I don't,

Like malls, it's very consumerist and there's something about it that stresses me out. Like, don't tell me what I need to be. But I just kept going with it. And I was like, well, let's, let's see if it's like a streak. Like, let's see if I can just see how long I can go. It's been quite a while now. It's just fun. Same with fast food. Like I moved to Seattle and I was like, you know what? Let's turn a new corner and just see how long I can go without eating fast food. And never missed it.

Dang. I also, I mean, I haven't yet gotten to the point where I'm like, okay, I'm not buying any other clothes from anywhere else, but I just enjoy buying clothes from a thrift store so much more or like just the finding, like we were talking about before. It's, it's the best exploration. Yeah, exactly. I hope that you found this episode enriching your thoughts. If you would like to write a fantastic follow me article,

I'm looking forward to our next episode. Cheers. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that.