#44 - Overcoming Perfectionism at Work: Why Successful Women Are Choosing a Different Path with Jennifer Richey
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Welcome to the InBloom podcast. Today I'm very excited because we are talking about something that I've personally experienced and many of my girlfriends have as well.

Okay, you know that moment when you're in a meeting and you catch yourself dialing back your enthusiasm, your ideas, or maybe being a bit more disagreeable than normal so that people take you seriously. Or maybe, I mean, take it out of the meeting setting. Maybe you're just pausing before you send that slack because you're not sure how it's going to be received. I've been there.

In my first role, I had days where I literally, no joke, would not smile in a meeting because I thought that that was what I had to do for people to take me seriously. So today I'm bringing you a story that's going to change how you think about all of this.

I recently sat down with Jennifer Ritchie, a senior director and a powerhouse in the tech industry, who spent 20 years building partnerships and driving growth for major companies while keeping parts of herself hidden. Externally, she's this accomplished director building multi-million dollar partnerships, but after hours, she's...

playing in punk rock bands. She is covered in tattoos and she is very, very artistic. For years, she thought that these two worlds could never meet. And for that reason, she hid a part of herself. She built a remarkable career, leading huge initiatives, building teams, but she did it all while wearing what she calls a mask. She kept her creative, dynamic personality very carefully contained, but the cost was burnout.

And especially for someone who is neurodivergent and naturally very expressive like Jennifer, someone with ADHD, which we get into.

She shared,

actually made her a more effective leader. And today she's known for building incredible teams, driving business growth while championing authenticity, and using her unique perspective to see opportunities that others miss. In today's episode, we're going to explore how Jennifer went from hiding her tattoos to leveraging her creative thinking in executive meetings, practical ways to integrate your personality into your professional life,

Specific strategies for maintaining professionalism while also being true to yourself. How to turn your I'm too much into a great strength and real examples of using authenticity to build stronger business relationships.

Jennifer brings 20 plus years of experience in B2B tech, where she has seen firsthand how authenticity can transform how you build and lead teams, the way you approach problem solving, your ability to create meaningful partnerships, and especially your impact on company culture, which I know personally, I've seen various companies with different cultures. Culture is absolutely so important.

for creating a company that lasts, creating an environment where people work hard, and more. So today we are talking about what it means to really bring yourself to work fully, but also to be polished and professionals. You don't want to compromise either. You do want to bring yourself to work in a way that is polished and professional and the best of you, but you also want to make sure that you're integrating your authentic ideas, your authentic strengths, your authentic self. So let's get into the episode.

Jennifer, thank you so much for being here. I wanted to open up with a question. Who are you? Who are you? Where have you come from? I feel like I was just thinking about this last week about all of the chapters that I have lived and closed and turned in my time. It's every woman. But actually, that probably ought to be my theme song.

So what's super interesting right now, over the last few months, I've been going through a lot of shadow work and a lot of inner child work. Actually, I've been doing that for a few years, to be honest, but the inner child resolution point is now, I feel. And I think that's so important for everybody. It does sound really woo-woo, but I do think it's super important. But for me, at my core, at my, like if you were to strip everything away, I'm just,

super sweet and super shy and curious and optimistic and enthusiastic. I mean, at my center, I'm just like a little sweet bit of candy. And I was that way as a really small child. I was super shy and super nerdy. Didn't really fit in. Lots of, lots of times,

throughout my youth where I just wanted to disappear. And then middle school, of course that got worse. I shed that in high school and put on a new mask and became this, I guess, life of the party.

And then, you know, young adult, I was a mom and I'm still a mom, but I'm a very different kind of mom now because my kids are young adults. And so when I was a young mom, I was very, very focused on my career, but I was still very focused on being the best mom that I could be. Being very as present as I could be for my kids and exposing them to as many wonders and things, you know, as I could. And I still try to do that. It's much more fun for me now because we're on vacation.

more of the same wavelength. But there was a point over the last decade or so where I realized that I could integrate the different parts of me at work. I can't integrate all of it because I am kind of a rock and roller and musician as well. And, you know, was playing out in bands and stuff through my thirties and into my forties. And that stopped right before the pandemic. But

I'm still very much, I love hard rock. I love punk rock. I love all punk rock bands, especially. I love leather. I love tattoos. I love all that stuff. And that goes along with my creative person, but it doesn't always gel at work. But I have learned how to integrate those two pieces. Sometimes it's artistic jewelry.

Sometimes it's feeling comfortable enough to show my tattoos at work. Sometimes it is bringing a bit of a punk rock attitude into a business conversation and really leaning into my direct communication style. You know what I mean? So for many, many years, I kept personal me and professional me very separate. No one would have ever guessed I played music or enjoyed the things that I do. And now I'm just much more personal.

integrated and, and unguarded, I guess. The, the thing that you just said where you were talking about personal you and professional you and how you kept that separate for a long time. Why did you keep it separate initially? I mean, like, did you just not think that

Was it more so like an understanding thing? Like you didn't understand how to bring it into it or was it like a, like an acceptance thing? Like you didn't know how other people could accept that part of you. And then additionally on that, when did that change? That is such a good question. And what's interesting is outside of work, everyone calls me Jenny. That's cool. Yeah.

At work, everyone calls me Jennifer. And I made a conscious decision when I was 24 years old that my name at work would be Jennifer because it just felt much more professional. When I started in the B2B tech space, this was in a day when I think women, you couldn't find 20% women in any room. I was often the only woman in a room of eight, nine, 10 men.

Um, and I was, you know, 24, 25, 26 years old selling ERP systems that were going to run an entire organization to middle-aged white men who, um, you know, I had to make sure they took me seriously and whatever. I guess I just felt like I had to over-focus.

on being the best professional that I could be. I mean, I overcompensated all over the board. I worked 80 hours a week. I learned everything I could. I learned how to speak like them and how to approach things like they did. And I did it well. I was really successful with all that stuff. But just over time, I just realized, wow, they would never know who I was as a person.

if they never saw me outside of work. It was a complete mask. I think it started changing after I left that ecosystem. I spent the first 20, no, I would say when I went into partnerships is actually when it started changing. I've always been in and around partnerships. I grew up in the Microsoft Dynamics ecosystem, but I held a number of other roles. And then partnerships, when that became my first

or when I entered my first focus partnerships role, and I was building relationships with people in partnership versus sales, I started to let my guard down a little bit. And as people would tell me their hobbies, they were singer, songwriter, or they were working on a novel or whatever, then I actually felt much more comfortable bringing myself

to the table. I had never made that connection before just now. So thank you so much for that question. And then I guess the further along that it went, entering a new ecosystem where I met all new partners, you know, after 20 years of meeting and knowing the same people, it gave me an opportunity to further step into myself. And it actually was a much hipper ecosystem with the people's personalities were different.

looser, I guess, less conservative. They were more themselves. There was less of a boys club, although the boys club still exists 100%. So I guess as the environment kind of shifted and I think DEI initiatives and people talking about bringing your whole self to work and all of that, and I think a lot of that kind

conversation started, I guess, making the environment safer. And then part of me, may I swear on your podcast or no? Oh, yes, please. Okay. Part of me at some point was just like, fuck it. This is who I am. And, you know, it gets exhausting masking as a person with ADHD. And then to try, I mean, I'm a wicked creative spirit, you know, and that serves me really, really well at work. But

You know, there's no way I could bring 100% myself to work and still be successful. There's still a lot of masking that has to go on. So you were talking about your early career, right? And you being inside of this kind of atmosphere where there were mostly men and also you felt like you had to mask yourself.

Why did you initially go into tech? Like, why was that something that you decided to do? And then you said that, I mean, obviously, working 80 hours a week and learning everything that you could, you were obviously ambitious. Like, what was...

What was pushing you toward being ambitious? And given how things have changed, but also the fact that there are still things that are, you know, true, like the harder you work, the better you do most of the time. What would you recommend to other people? Like looking back on the things that you did well and the things that you would change? So,

I think I've always been ambitious. I grew up very, very poor, very food insecure, single mom. She worked hard to take care of us. I had to be very resourceful from a very, very early age. And

I just always knew that I needed to count on myself. And I also knew I wanted a different life for myself and for my kids. And so, you know, that's just always been part of me. I joke and say I have middle child syndrome, but that actually is one of my shadows that I'm working through and probably have been working through for a long time. For me, and I don't have a four-year degree. I did go to college for one year. I took two years off after high school, worked three jobs to save up money to go to college. Wow.

took very little out in, um, I had a tiny loan. And, um, by the time I got there, I was like, this is absolutely not for me. I changed majors twice in one year. And before you even declare a major. And I was like, this is definitely not for me. I need to work. Like I had that habit, um, in me of working, um, since I actually started working when I was 11, which sounds crazy now, but, um, it was, it was important for me to make an impact and,

For whatever reason, I wanted to just always do a great job. I've always been that way. And in order for me to live the life that I wanted to live, I needed to make money. So sales was great for me. But I look back now, the reason I worked anywhere from 60 to 80 hour weeks was not necessarily because there was that much work to do, but because of my ADHD in part,

We have technology now that helps with a lot of that stuff. And I have a huge light. How do I explain this? So I have a much deeper understanding of how my brain works now than I did then. But I was also, there's this curse of overcompensating that women carry and then women with ADHD extra carry. And then there's perfection, being a perfectionist. I just wanted everything to be

If I was going to present something, it had to be perfect. If it was going to be a proposal, it had to be so thorough and totally aligned to the customer's needs. So I did that to myself almost. You know what I mean? I think I could have been successful and not worked that many hours, but I was also getting a lot of satisfaction out of just working, creating, and making an impact and that. Yeah.

Hopefully that made sense. Yeah. So would you recommend, I mean, the perfectionism is a double-edged sword, right? Because like on one end, it's about pursuing excellence, you know, like you do something very, very well. And then that is helpful to other people. Like let's say you're presenting something and if it's done extremely well, then they're going to get as much information as possible from it and then maybe make some business decisions because of it. And like,

excellence is important. But then on the other side, I definitely see myself and a lot of other women included, hold themselves back sometimes because of their perfectionism. So what has been your relationship with this, you know, perfectionism? And where do you stand now? So actually, I'm very actively trying to let go of the need for perfectionism. And that has bitten me in the booty a couple of times here lately, because I'll send something out and then notice

a missing word or, you know, missing period. And I just have to keep telling myself it's okay. It's okay. Because it's almost like you get a little neurotic with it, but I a hundred percent agree with you that excellence is important. And you asked about recommending, I think I would recommend to everybody, if you are important to yourself, the quality of work that you do,

generate out your output, whatever. It absolutely speaks to who you are and how much you respect yourself and the people that you work with. So I'm a big believer in

for excellence. However, that said, I think there are ways that we can make it easier on ourselves. And I'll give you an example with leveraging technology. Super easy, and I bet everybody at this point probably has one on their desktop, but like a Grammarly bot or Quill bot or something. Something there to...

I mean, spell check is one thing, but little, just leveraging little bits of technology like that to kind of offload that cognitive piece. I actually use chat GPT, Claude and perplexity for taking that load off as well. So I don't reread and reread and reread what I write for readability. I make sure that what I want to say is in there and then I give it over the technology. So I'm also taking that. That's a perfectionist thing to do.

you know, that I'm taking off my plate and putting somewhere else. Did I answer your question or? Yes, that was, that was incredible. Okay. Yeah. You said that the quality of work speaks to how much you respect yourself and those around you. And I think that is an incredibly apt statement.

It, you know, and I think we can have strong quality of work without being overly perfectionistic. Perfectionistic? I think so. But, you know, I think we can give ourselves grace because even the pursuit of excellence is a growing learning exercise, right? All the time. So as long as you're in pursuit of it and give yourself grace.

That's where women fall down when we are being perfectionists. If we beat ourselves up because something's not absolutely perfect, you can have excellence without perfection. How do you know when it's excellent but not perfect? Because I mean, like one of my good friends, I was talking to her about just her work and her experiences and all the things that she's doing. And she's like,

I feel like I'm always asking somebody to tell me I'm doing a good job because I know it, but also like, I want to be perfect. You know, I want other people to see the things that I do and recognize them. And that's something that I struggled definitely more with in the past, but I was listening to Ryan holidays, the obstacles, the way, and he was like,

He was sharing, I think, a quote. I forget from who. But he was like, everybody looks to the world to define their value, right? To define that they're doing enough to define their purpose and mission. And he's like, the goal is to look at yourself and to allow the world...

allow the things that you do to be the answer, not for the answer to be something that the world tells you, but to be something that you tell the world, like the world gives you circumstances and then you get to tell the world, you know, who you are and what you do. Do you think that comes with like understanding your industry better or like, how do you best measure yourself and make sure that you're striving for excellence while not perfection? This is a, this is a ball of yarn question. I feel like because I,

I agree with what Ryan Holiday says. I mean, external validation is one thing, but even with external validation, if you don't have that super solid core of internal validation and you don't feel like you're good enough and you're constantly looking for others to tell you, you will continuously fall short and feel like you are not perfect or you are not good enough. Mm-hmm.

I think it's going to be different for everybody. And I think surround it for women, especially there's like, we all know there's a confidence gap. I was making, I'm going to take an aside here and then come back. I was making a joke with some women friends about how I'm just going to say it about how some men get promoted and it's because they're confident. And what I was looking at when I made the joke was this LinkedIn career path, this, an actual person and every person,

role, the skill gained was self-confidence, self-confidence. And he went from like a BDR to a senior AE to a VP somewhere. Meanwhile, women are questioning their worth and overworking and, and not getting as, you know, promoted as quickly or as often, you know, whatever. So I think the confidence gap is real. And I think there's a lot to be said for really believing in yourself. Some people are just born on this planet.

confident and walk through with without issue. Other people deal with incredible external forces and have to learn how to be confident in the face of all these things. Industry knowledge, you know, going back to my early career, gaining as much knowledge as I could, learning everything I could about the people that I was selling to or working with and making sure that I was on their level, even though they were 20 years older than me, that boosted my confidence. But

I say I think, you know, excellence versus perfection, it's going to be different for everybody else. One exercise I did lately was my career packet and I took it out to about 10 people. And everyone said, this is good or this is great and or but or I think you should do

this as well. So I thought what I brought out as a first product was really great and creative. And then I got some feedback that was great in the way that was very accurate and a hard pill for me to swallow. So I had to strip back some of my personality out of this career packet. And then I got some really good pieces of input that I would never even thought of including. And, and so my second version, let's say,

was better and my third version is excellent but it's not perfect and I'm not asking any more people so for me I'm like good enough is perfect sometimes that's good enough for me that it is excellent in my mind it's fine if other people don't think it is yeah good enough is perfect that's right yeah you have to leave room for iteration and improvement and you know all of that

You mentioned, so your career packet, is that kind of like a resume-ish or like basically the thing that you're using to send to jobs? Highlights of my career, my career path, a little bit about me and in a presentation format. My resume is jam-packed. It was originally three pages. And that's the other thing.

about, I don't know if it's ADHD or me or me wanting to be, it's probably some element of seeking external validation. I don't know. I have a gazillion points on my resume for every role I did. I did so much. Yes, it's very thorough, but I took my resume down from three pages to two, but it

still, you know, pretty jam packed. So I wanted to create something that was more engaging, more personable. I mean, obviously, if you're blind applying, which I don't do a lot of at this point in my career, but if you're blind applying, you want to get noticed, I did send my career packet in and got an email back two and a half hours later.

for a role that already had over 100 applicants. So that's pretty impressive. But really, it was designed as a tool for me to give those in my network who are willing to help me and keep their eyes and ears open for me. It's something that they can feel confident sharing with the people that they work with or people in their own networks if they want to recommend me for something. I've

I feel like that's really important that if we are going to ask someone for a recommendation that we give them something of substance that they can feel good about passing along. So that was the primary intent for that.

Yeah, I love that so much. I'm going to come back to that because I definitely want to touch on the idea of networks and networking. But I did want to touch back on the point that you made about women and confidence because I see that a lot. And I think I heard something somewhere where it was like women don't apply to jobs that they are not qualified for. So they overqualify themselves and will only apply when they check every box. And so that's really fascinating to me because it's not like –

that's not a political thing. It's not like a, that just is the way that we're wired in a way. Like, and I've met women that are not wired that way. So maybe it's just like,

a personality type or something that we learn eventually somehow. But I do find that me and a lot of my friends are like that, where it's like perfectionism. You know, we just want to make sure that we put our best foot forward or like we care a lot about the way that other people perceive us. And that really matters to us. We care about the way that we come across. So, yeah, I think that's that's important to note just as like

A thing to work on, like I've been doing that with myself as well, like when I when I feel like I'm not doing enough or like when I look at my task list or I look at my projects and I'm just like, oh, my gosh, there's so many things to do. Sometimes I will remind myself of all the things that I've done and I'm like, OK, like in the past, for example, this was a really good exercise.

the quarter's over. And so we were doing some quarterly reviews and I was like, okay, what have I actually done this quarter? Cause you always forget. And also I feel like there's just this bias to, um,

I don't know, just like to sweep it under the rug. Like it's done. I'm not going to think about it again, but then you forget all the things that you've actually accomplished. And so I was recapping and I was like, oh my gosh, we've done so much in just three months. And I think that's really, really helpful as well for building confidence. Absolutely. So important. And I think it's so important to do it more than on a quarterly basis. I got into the habit of writing down every day the

the big rocks that I got done. And I fell out of that habit and immediately was like, what have I done? Am I doing anything? And the fact of the matter is I was doing probably the jobs of three people and, you know, and that's why I couldn't remember. And so not only did I do that for myself, but I did it for my team. So every morning I would say,

What are your top three things? What did you accomplish yesterday? Not your to-do list, not the meetings you had. What were your accomplishments, like the meaty things? And then what are your top three priorities for today? And in my mind, I need, well, I need that, right, to stay on top of what's going on and help them if they need help with prioritization. But in my mind also, I was thinking, wow, I would have loved to have a manager back in the day.

to force me to do that so that I could look back in a month's time and a quarter's time when it was time to do my resume and move on to something new and remember all of the good work that I did. I think that's so, so important. I also want to make a

comment about women and confidence and applying to jobs. I do that too. I'm like, oh, I don't have that experience. I'm just now starting to say, but I can learn that. And honestly, with chat, GPT and AI, you can learn anything. If you have the aptitude and you've got the core skills of the role and you're hungry for a challenge, you can learn everything. So one part of it is the candidate.

And being confident enough to say, yes, I can learn that. The other part of that equation is companies need to stop trying to find these unicorns and really giving people an opportunity to grow and stretch in their career. That is so, so important. And I think there are some companies out there that are really doing that right. And I see that in role listings where they say we understand that certain groups of folks may not

want to apply because they don't feel qualified, we encourage you to do it anyway. And that is absolutely the right way to go. Another thing I'll say about confidence and women, and you said, you know, it's the way we're wired. And I believe strongly it is just a product of the patriarchy and the systems that we are living within. Because women have always had to fight harder for themselves to prove themselves and to

We've had to speak up louder, but not too loud and, you know, be direct, but not too direct. And so we're constantly in this fight or flight sort of freeze mode around what's right, what's not in a lot of cases. I don't know if that's so much the case for younger women these days, but, you know, when I grew up, you know, in my 20s in business, it was very much like that. And I still face some of that now with men.

some of the things I deal with with my ADHD. But women are taught to not be as confident as men, and men are taught to be more confident than women simply as a result of the system being designed for men. And I am not ashamed to say that. Yeah. Yeah.

I think you mentioned that like especially when you grew up, it was like that. I feel like now the conversations that I'm having with my friends are less about like systemic things or deep things, but more so about like just the nuances of navigating. So one of my friends is just like incredibly sweet, the most personable human ever. She's so bubbly. She's so kind. And she was like,

I feel like I'm not taken seriously. Like I'm smart, but everybody thinks I'm dumb because, you know, I just want to be nice and like balance between warmth and competence where it's like you show your best, you know, your best, you show that you're competent, you show that you can keep up while also maintaining your warmth. Because I don't want like as a woman, like I don't want to lose my warmth. I don't want to lose, you know, the part of me that,

I like to be with my friends or like with my family. I want to be warm and I also want to be competent. So it's like that balance is, is difficult and not clear. Yes. The struggle is real. And this is why it's so, so important that we have more women in leadership roles that are comfortable with their warm and soft and feminine selves, not just perpetuating a more masculine approach and,

To leadership. And I'll tell you, it's the double bind and there are studies on it about, you know, it's actually, I completely go down a rabbit hole if I start talking about that. So I will just say this. To this day, I still deal with that. If I am too enthusiastic or optimistic or I smile too much, people still do not take me as seriously, even though I've got a couple of decades under my belt. Wow.

And so it's, and I, and I see it happen with men too. So it's almost as though business, maybe folks in business feel like if you're not strict or direct that you're not as competent. I don't know exactly how I want to say it without it, but I think it's, it's more like there's not enough room in the room.

for optimism and joy and, and warmth. And I worked with, with someone years ago who told me that I was naive for putting some pretty lofty strategic goals in place. And I told him quite plainly that optimism is different than naivete. And, and I think that people are

see optimism, exuberance, enthusiasm as naivete. And I think it's, those are two very, very different things. So how do you feel like, or, I mean, so obviously you've been in leadership positions, you understand strategy, you understand, you know, what a business can do, what individuals can do for a business. How do you,

you know, toe that line between optimism and naivety? And then how do you also bring in the best that you can bring in a leadership position as a woman? Like, what are you consciously aware of doing to, I don't know, to bring your best, not just as a woman, but also as Jennifer, like the uniqueness that you have to offer? So I think,

data and a solid presentation that speaks to the audience in the way that it needs to speak to the audience. I think a lot of what I've done over the years is create something out of nothing. And I think a lot of partnerships

create something out of separate things. I mean, obviously that's what partnerships do, but a lot of times you're painting the vision and you're painting the picture. And in order to get people aligned and bought into the strategy, you've got to have a super solid foundation and that's got to be data-driven. It's got to be data-driven. And so I think

you know, there's credibility that you bring into the conversation by leveraging the right resources and structuring your presentation or your strategy or whatever it is in the right way and delivering it in the right way. But I think toeing the line

So that takes care of the naivete piece. So how do you continue to gain credibility while still being optimistic and smiley? And I mean, I love to smile and connect with people in a more casual kind of way. I think if you can break the ice and then continue to build, and then you'll just kind of learn there is some trial and error to when to whip out the bubbly stuff and when to keep it tucked away. You just kind of...

You just kind of learn and it takes a lot of observing and hopefully that answers the first part of your question. And then the second piece, as far as me being uniquely me and a woman in leadership, one of my strengths is that I am very empathetic and it's both a blessing and a curse, but

When I have people on a team that I'm directly managing, it's extremely important to me to understand what they need to get out of their career, this role, this project.

this teamwork, whatever. So I'm very focused on making sure that I'm creating a path or helping pave a path, removing obstacles, whatever it is, providing resources, whatever it might be, that aligns with their personal professional goals. That's extremely important to me. And I think that's probably why I ended up with five children in my brood, only two of mine and three

Two were mine and three are, you know, but it's super important to me that every single person that I work closely with or come in contact with is closely, is given the opportunity to shine in their best way and to have their strengths seen and their weaknesses seen.

compensated some other way or coached or whatever. I'm a big believer in leaning into your strengths and finding other people that have strengths that compliment your weaknesses. And, you know, so I think,

I think that is unique in that I will put the people first. And sometimes that does cause long work days when I'm putting my work second to the people. But I think good managers and good leaders are so, so, so important. Also advocacy, a huge advocate for my team. I'm also a realist. So if something just is not going to click and I have to be the voice of realism for the company and deliver tough news or whatever, I can do that. And I can do that with the people that I hire because I know they can handle it.

But teaching people how to advocate for themselves too, maybe not teaching them. Yeah. Teaching them. What phrases do you use? How do you stand up for yourself in this sort of a conversation or encouraging just

encouraging them that their voice is there to be heard, finding ways to softly call them out in meetings so that they can speak up, making room in the room or space at the table for every voice. That's super important to me. And I think that it's not unique. I'm not special in that way, but I am intentional about it. And so, and I know a lot of folks aren't, so I guess that's something that I feel

very passionate and proud of. I love that. That was something that took a little while for me to learn, but learn practically how to, how to implement was understanding the fact that you're not there just to fill a role. Like the goal of you being inside of a company is not that you fill a role. It's that you create value. What is the goal of any company? It is to provide value

and or solutions to somebody that needs it. Right. And like, there are lots of things in that, that go into that. And the,

the way that a company does things right now may not be the perfect way to do it. I mean, most of the time it's not, you know, the probability that somebody has found the exact perfect way to do every single thing, very low. And so the idea that you get to bring your whole self to a company and the idea that you get to, you know, use the thing that makes you uniquely human, which is your creativity and your dot connecting abilities and just like see things, see patterns, um,

I think that's where it makes so much sense to me that...

everybody sharing the things that they have to share is actually extremely important. Asking questions. I think that was, that was the intro point for me when I'm not confident in making a statement or like saying, this is something that I'm willing to risk myself on. I will ask questions instead. And I think even that is extremely valuable because it, it stands to question assumptions and, or get people thinking a different way. Um,

And so like, yes, you know, not everybody has earned the right to say something at the top leadership meeting, but like anybody can ask a question. And I think that's, that's something that helped me to reframe, especially at the earliest stages of my career, what it means to have a voice in a company. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So many people are afraid to ask questions. And so, yeah.

The fact that you're asking questions and you're brave about it, that's the way to be. And it's so interesting how one of the mistakes that I made in a role was I started out asking a bunch of questions and then I stopped asking questions and a little too soon and started putting things in place a little too soon. So this is a good reminder, I think for me and for everybody to continue asking questions.

Yeah, that's been something that I've sat with a lot recently is the, I don't know if you've read Naval Ravikant, his book, he has, so he's the founder of AngelList and he's just like a philosopher and he thinks about a lot of things, but he's also in the tech space.

And he has a lot of different really great ideas, but one of them is this concept called specific knowledge. And he basically says that like a person's job and goal in life is to find their specific knowledge, the thing that they can do that not anybody else can do. And he's like, it's not information that you learn from books. It's things that you learn from experience. Like your unique set of experiences are going to teach you something that cannot be replicated. Right.

by anybody else. And he's like, when you find your specific knowledge, it'll feel like play to you, but work to others. And so I've been asking myself the question in my role, like, where is the intersection between my specific knowledge and either revenue or business impact? And like, if you can find that, I feel like that's where there's a lot of opportunity. Mm-hmm.

Agree. I agree. And now I'm thinking I'm going to be thinking about this after we get off this call, because I've been doing a lot of thinking around, I mean, partnerships and how I can pull together all of the pieces across an organization to drive successful partnerships. That is great.

part of my specific knowledge, but it's not totally unique to, you know, other folks around me. I've been more focused on my purpose and my why. And so I think I'm still forming what might truly be my specific knowledge as a gift, if you will. I love that. What have you figured out about your purpose and your why so far? I,

I'm a lighthouse and that can be both good and bad at times, but I want to be a safe harbor. And so it's really important to me to kind of break the mold of normal corporate conversations or speak in places like LinkedIn. And I think I may have sent you a note about that, but like in public forums, I am completely comfortable speaking.

shining a light on issues or raising things to the surface. And I am, I'm a bit of a statistical anomaly with the things that I've been through in my life. Won't go through it. But I've been through like so many things that so many different people can relate to. And so I just commit

myself to being like the first domino or the first voice or someone to amplify a conversation that needs to be amplified. And in that way, I feel like I'm a lighthouse to say, I'm a lighthouse with certain issues with company culture. And then I want to be a safe harbor for people who need a place to land and to

to connect with that said I do not want to be a therapist but I do want people to know that they're not alone and it's really hard to be going through some things that people are are going through um and still trying to go to work and bring their best to work um and so yeah so I think that's part of my purpose is to do that for people

I love that. And one of the topics that you're extremely fascinated by right now, because you've experienced it, is ADHD. So what have you been learning about ADHD? And you found out late that you had ADHD, correct? I did, yes. Late diagnosed about 13, 14 years ago at this point. And when I was diagnosed, I was put on medication right away. And I was just told, you know,

you know, a few things. And I was like, okay, that makes sense why I can work super quickly, or I can understand the big picture and the details, or I can multitask and wear all these hats that partnership people wear, you know, a lot of that makes sense, but it didn't really, I didn't

I didn't do any deep dive learning then or have any real coaching or therapy at that time. So in this moment of clarity that I'm in right now with being off medication and really dedicating myself to understanding why my ADHD manifests the way it does in certain circumstances, that's, I'm learning just a ton about myself. And like, you know, I think I mentioned the shadow work. It's super important. But so, you know, I'm learning about the different types of ADHD, the way that it manifests,

for different people because it's different for every single person. And what I have probably the biggest thing that I have learned is that I have always had ADHD and it has manifested for me in different ways over the years, depending on my environment or choices that I've made people that I'm around the work that I'm doing. And so I,

you know, biggest thing for me is learning how to master the things that manifest negatively. So that could be one of the things that people with ADHD do is they interrupt or they sometimes things just tumble out of our mouths. And we don't mean to say that. So I find myself going, Oh, my God, did I just say that out loud? Or, oh, I didn't mean to cut you off, you know, so I'm thinking about

about, and I'll tell you, the first six weeks of this was really intense, because I was beating myself up. I've got this intense inner critic who keeps raising her head. And but I started feeling really bad about all of the times that I did that in

work or personal situations. And so just, this is another rambling answer, but recognizing those things about myself and what specifically was going on in the moment or in the capsule of time in which it happened and figuring out what do I put in place? Is it a governor for overthinking? Is it a breathing technique to hold myself back before I talk in a meeting? Is it, you know, things like that. So,

I'm learning all kinds of things. It's a very personal journey, but I'm also learning that my strengths have always been my strengths and I've always leaned into my strengths. So I'm going to continue doing that and encouraging other people to do that. But really it's just a matter of at this point, understanding the why behind it all. Whereas before I didn't give myself the space or have the coaching or the direction to do

figure out the why, you know, what the triggers are. Yeah. So you decided that you were going to go off of your medications to see the full manifestation of it and then to understand it. Was that the reason that you decided to do it? Yes, exactly. Yes. That's, that's brave. Uh, yes. Um, and what I found, I mean, it's, um,

I'm not thrilled that I am not working currently. I'm like, put me in coach. I'm ready for what's next. I absolutely, you know, intentionally have taken a slow path to find my next role because I knew I needed to do this because I don't, I don't want to hurt people. I don't want to upset people. And I also don't have the energy to wear a mask all the time. I just, I don't. And so it's,

If I'm not masking and I'm not medicated and like I'm who I am, I've got to figure out ways to do that. Ways to be me without masking. It's super tricky. But what I wanted to understand by going off the medication is what does my brain naturally gravitate towards? When and what kind of environmental factors, whether internal or external, can

affect me in which ways. So I've been doing, I mean, I've experimented with different sleep schedules, different kinds of food, cutting way down on alcohol, the things that I put into my brain, how long I spend doing certain things. So I'm really just giving my brain the opportunity to say,

okay, this is how I naturally function. And then I am pulling it back together with how I have to function and love to function at work and figuring out alternative ways of getting through those things, if that makes sense. Yeah, that's incredible. Because I mean, that's valuable, not just for people with ADHD or like something that they want to figure out, but like for anybody, definitely.

First, the grace to accept the parts of you that you do not understand and or that you don't like yet. And also the commitment to figuring yourself out, like saying, OK, I don't like when I do X or Y. Let me see if I change, you know, these variables. If an output changes, are you like journaling or reflecting on these things or like how are you making sure to notice that?

all of the little nuances. I'm journaling, which is I'm journaling every morning, which is a new practice for me because I used to journal occasionally at night and reflect on the day. What I'm doing differently now is journaling and in a very intentional way. Sometimes I just write

silly things, whatever, to keep writing. But most of the time I write things like, I want my car to run well. So I will make this appointment today that I've been putting off for two weeks for car service. I want, you know what I mean? I want my house to smell good. So I will get rid of this vase of dying flowers. I mean, things like that. So that is that. And then writing, having the luxury of not working right now with, it is stressful to not work. Mm-hmm.

But I'm always, everything always works out. So I'm always just a believer that everything always works out. But having the space,

to think and to write, it's going beyond journaling. So now I'm writing. And the more I write, the more I discover about myself. And I'm also using my notes app during the day. So I have a journal session. And then I write and then I am talking to text revelations into my notes. So I don't forget for the first time, one of my major breakthroughs is for the

for the first time in probably maybe close to 10 years, I have been able to sit down and read a paper book. And that is major for me. Like I have chills. It's major because there is, is there, the book's behind you. There's nothing better than curling up with a book and a cup of tea or coffee or whatever. And I mean, there's nothing better than that. But for so long, I've had to

do audiobook only because I haven't been able to slow my body down enough. So I have to move my body in order to think normally. Anyway, giving myself the space and doing all the writing and everything else is giving me the, it's just, yeah, new chapter is coming. I don't know how to say it without sounding too silly. No, it doesn't sound silly at all. And I think

I think it's underrated how important the space is. So like you were mentioning, yes, like there's a part of you that wants to be involved in a new job and just like already moving. And like I've experienced that so many times where it's like I'll be moving at a pace and I put myself there, right? Like I put myself there with this pace. And then there's a part of me that almost wants to self-sabotage the moment because –

because I want to be somewhere else or like I want a different pace, but it's like, no, like you were just in a different season. You just had a different pace and this is actually extremely valuable for you. Don't steal it from yourself. Why did you decide to take that gap to, you know, to slow yourself down a little bit and like to not jump straight into something new, but to almost take your time and figure yourself out. But also it seems like you're also looking for something very particular with your next role.

Yeah, it's interesting. I've done this a few times in my career and there are a few different reasons. I was approaching ADHD burnout and so I knew that now was the time for me to heal this part of me. So that was just a very like, if I don't do this, it's not going to be good for anybody. So very deep and personal motivation. But career-wise, a couple of realizations.

One, I don't know that I want to be a VP or a CXO level anymore. I used to have those ambitions. I don't think I want that anymore. And so that's a really big decision to make. And so I needed to do that justice and really honor that. Different things are a priority to me now, and that's okay. And so I needed some space to think through that and really kind of come to terms with that.

But from a career perspective, I've gone from operations, sales, marketing, partnerships, and I've done a number of different things in partnerships. So I've done partner, built a

channel business and manage the partners. I've managed alliances. I've done partner programs, partner marketing, partner experience and operations threaded throughout all of that. My most recent role was in strategy and the last few roles that I've had have taken me a little bit further away from the partners than what really lights my fire. And so a big, I guess, motivation factor.

for me and I feel like I'm pivoting again in my career to move back more towards working with partners so and and that also you know the higher up you go the less interaction you actually have with your partners and and that's not that's not what makes me happy about partnerships what makes me happy about partnerships is building and working with the people so I don't I really needed to think about that unravel that and and come to terms with my decision to make a

another pivot and why? That's so interesting. And I'm about to hit you with some rapid fire questions, but I just want to call out how important that is. So like often the goal is, you know,

the highest position, the greatest title, you know, often that is the goal. Like, what are you striving for? It's the best, it's the top. But the emphasis that like, everybody has a different best, like for you, if best is working with partners, if best, if the way that you're defining best is different, then that is 100% perfect. Because like, why be in a position that

you don't love like why why be in a place where your values aren't fully aligned or you feel like you're not fully leaning into what you could do or who you are um I think it's really fascinating that you say that like you've you know you've jumped all over you've done all these different things which have given you so much insight into what you like and also what you really don't like

And now you get to step back and say, okay, what is in full alignment with my values? What is in full alignment with who I am? And then like building a life and building a career and building a future that is entirely you and entirely in alignment. I think that's the goal of life. It's like, especially whenever you're young.

Try out a ton of things. You know, I've done so many things that like do not light me up at all, like actually kill my fire. But we're so valuable because then it's like, OK, well, I will not do those again. And being able to eventually craft the thing that does light your fire is like so aligned to you. I think that's a missing just like a missing gem in life.

Yeah. We subscribe too often to other people's idea of success or society's idea of success. And it's so important that we define that for ourselves and that we keep redefining that for ourselves because it can constantly change. And that's, that's okay. Yes. I love that. I love that. I mean, like, who knows, maybe in say five years, you're going to be like, you know what? That C-suite position is, that is calling my name. It's time. Ready now. No, we'll see. Yeah.

Who knows? Well, this has been incredible. I'm about to hit you with some rapid fire questions. These are just some final questions that you can give me. The first thing that pops into your head, I might, I have a tendency to not make them rapid fire because I usually ask follow-ups, but we'll see. Okay. But here they go. So question number one, what advice would you give yourself, your sister, your daughter now reflecting on your own journey? Follow your instinct, right?

Learn to listen to your gut and then follow it without question. That's a good one. Question number two, what advice would you give to a young woman who wants success in all aspects of her life, you know, career, friendship, family, everything, and she sees that it's hard to balance or it's hard to do all of them well? Okay.

Okay, I think I have a three part answer. One, define success for yourself. Two, define success beyond your current moment. So, you know, maybe it's a timeline, maybe understanding that you can't have it all like all at once, give yourself a path to build. And maybe it's just a two parter. I think the biggest thing is just defining it for yourself, like we were just talking about. Yeah, I love that. I think that's,

So correct. So on point for this conversation and just like, just the things that I see happening a lot, which is,

people assume other people's definitions just because it's easier like it's hard to sit with it and to define it for yourself and to do the work to figure out you know like what do I actually like what do I not like what is truly me like all the things that you were saying the whenever you shed parts of yourself like the thing that stays is truly you and my last question so you know the 80 20 product principle I'm not sure why am I thinking I don't know that uh it's basically like

So 80, it's like 80% of the results come from 20% of the work. Yeah, of course I know that. I felt like it was a trick question. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, not a trick question. I'm not trying to trick you. What 20% has accounted for 80% of your success, career, life, et cetera? Oh my gosh. It's two things. It's got to be two things combined, resilience and integrity.

doing the right thing. So to expand on that just a tiny bit, when I was in sales or selling to either prospects or existing customers,

or working with partners, didn't matter, whatever role I had, I was always focused on doing the right things, multiple things, and I knew the money would come. I was never driven by money. Some people are money motivated, totally fine. But for me, it was more about acting in integrity, doing the right things,

putting the customer, the partner and that first, and then I knew the money would come later. So, and you have to have resilience in all those roles in life. Oh yeah. And you have to have the, yeah, sometimes it's really hard to be integrous. It's hard to commit to integrity and to, you know, not take the easy way out. But I think that that's so important. And

Those two, resilience and integrity, are perfect way to end this episode. I think they frame who you are as a person, just the whole conversation very, very well. Thank you so much for sharing your story, sharing so much wisdom and just great points, great little one-liners. You were incredible and

I really appreciated this. Oh my gosh, you're fantastic. I don't even remember what I said, but thank you so much for having me and for this. I mean, I was a little worried I wasn't gonna be able to sit still for a whole hour, but you are just so engaging and just an excellent host. So thank you and keep doing what you do. I found this episode enriching. Let's see if you would like to listen. I'm looking forward to our next episode. Cheers. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that.