#51 - *SPECIAL* What No One Tells You About the Growth You Experience When You Choose Family Over Career with Heather Morehouse
01:01:22 Share

Welcome to the In Bloom podcast where we're exploring what it means to design a life you are so fulfilled and proud of. I'm Ella, your host. Today's guest, I've been wanting to have her on since I actually started this part of the podcast where I talk to women because she is one of the women that I admire most. Her name is Heather Morehouse. She is a mother, a homeschool mom, a stay-at-home wife. She is just incredible and the way that she lives her life

and loves people and just is such a light of joy to so many different people that that's taught by. It is so refreshing. We talked today a little bit about motherhood, personal growth, what it truly means to live with intention, especially when your path looks a little bit different from what society often celebrates. I mean,

It's no secret. Often we tie our worth to what we do, and motherhood is not something that society always tells you is worthwhile. So we dive into that and why this journey has been so important and impactful for her. I'm so excited to share this with you. I'm so excited to share Heather Morehouse with you. Let's get into the episode. You are excellent. You become unforgettable. Welcome to Indie Media.

I want to hear your story. Where did you grow up? I'm from Michigan, fairly average traditional family, except that we were homeschooled. I was at least for a little bit. And so in some ways, when I look back, I think that probably set me right away on a different path than maybe most people because I was

In the mid-80s, nobody homeschooled. Right. In fact, my parents wouldn't let me go outside until traditional school was out for the day. Are you serious? Yeah, because it was kind of in the courts then. It was still being decided if it was legal. Whoa. Yeah. So yeah, my background's fairly traditional. My dad went to work. My mom stayed home with us. I had a brother and a sister and lived in that same town in Michigan all growing up until I got married. I married Isaac Morehouse. I'm

I've been married to him for 21 years. We have four kids. I homeschool now. If I was to ask you, what does a day in your life look like generally, what would you say? That is such a hard question to answer because I feel like I'm coming and going all the time and no day is the same. But

Generally, I wake up and I start my day with a devotional and tea and dark chocolate. And everybody knows to not talk to me until I've done that because I'm actually pretty grouchy if I haven't had time alone to begin with. But then after that, I might go for a run. And then eventually we start school. So we either start schoolwork, which is usually my youngest in me.

My girls do their own thing now. I check in now and then. And then at some point, we usually have somewhere to go, whether it's our co-op classes or groceries. You know, I do all the shopping, make all of our meals. So I do have to go out and get the food during the week. And they usually come and help me with that. They always have. So our days are full of just everything. Sports practice, stuff like that. Lots of coming and going. But I still try to...

Every day, sit with my legs up and do some kind of reading or I'll even listen to a podcast while I fold laundry, but some kind of downtime in the afternoon really helps me. So, yeah. Is that something that you always knew about yourself that you needed downtime or is that something you figured out on the back end?

I think I always knew it, and I just naturally took that time for myself when I was younger. A huge part of my childhood was spent outdoors playing. I was kind of weird playing. I made furniture. I would chop down trees, and I would saw them into logs and then nail them into furniture and build huts and tree houses and things.

took apart various things of my dad's like i don't know radios and left his tools out so i was just always kind of exploring and tinkering

tons of time outside exploring so I think I've always known that I needed time alone outside but that gets harder as you get older you have lots of kids so I've had to kind of channel that into somewhat practical ways like even folding laundry if I'm left alone while I do it and I can listen to a podcast that can actually recharge me you just have to get creative you know

Yeah, I really like that. That's not glamorous, right? That's not like building tree houses or anything, but it works. It works for me. Have you always been in touch with the part of yourself that needs things? Have you always noticed what you need in a moment or have there ever been moments where you come back to yourself and you're like, okay, obviously I didn't show up the way that I wanted to. I need something and I have not been getting it. In a way, yes. I'm actually really selfish and so I really am. And I've always...

yes, I've always needed this and needed that and been aware and demanded that I get this thing ASAP if possible. I'm just, I'm kind of tumultuous and demanding and, but that goes too far, right? Like that can be too self-indulgent. And so you really have to kind of, in some ways, put down the back burner when you have kids. And that's been good for me to balance that side of myself out. Interestingly, now I think I'm kind of swinging back into a, okay, well,

Apart from being self-indulgent to myself or being overly indulgent to my kids, what does it really look like to take care of myself now? That's actually hard to figure out, strangely. And I haven't really put in a lot of time figuring that out. But that's new territory for me because I always thought it was all about me for a long time. Then it's about your kids, which is a good thing.

So what does it really mean to be honest about what I need for the first time ever maybe? I'm going to come back to this in a second. I want to go back before we go too deep into being a mom into your experience. So you said that your mom was a stay-at-home mom. Did you always know that you were going to be a stay-at-home mom? Because really quickly, before we get into this, you quite literally, every single person that I know that knows you just admires the way that you're a mom so much. You make people happy. Okay.

And it's so crazy. That's amazing to hear. Thank you. I feel like we should bring my kids in here and have them hear me say that and they would just straight up laugh or roll their eyes. When people pay me compliments like that, I always feel like I have to bring the kids in so they can hear the other side of the story. But thank you. I appreciate that. That's why I wanted to have you on the podcast because I talk to a lot of career women, a lot of people that are chasing something in the world, right? Like their

their title success, however they're defining it. You obviously define success a little differently. And the way that you have taken being a stay at home mom and made it your own is just really cool to me. Did you always know that you wanted to be a stay at home mom because your mom was one? First of all, I love that my mom did that. And I love that it was hard. It was a sacrifice. People love to say, well, that's nice. You were able to do that.

They don't know that we were actually really poor. We were really poor. My dad had a hard time. He worked full time. He did his best. But they had a hard time paying bills. And we were on government assistance for a while. And family members would help now and then, relatives. Really, we needed my mom to work.

But for the little years until I was 10, it was really important to her. She did not have that experience of a mother staying home and she felt the lack of it. And she really wanted to be there for us. So they carved it out and made it work. It was not easy. And I valued that so much. Not so much like in

intellectually I didn't really get that but she was always there and she made homeschooling fun and she made homemaking fun I mean it's not glamorous but she made it fun so I always knew that I would I wouldn't say that I was passionate about it like her you know it's not like I thought I am excited to be a homemaker and a stay-at-home mom growing up but I knew I would do it I also knew that I'd be a homeschool mom that I kind of dreaded because I don't like to teach I

But at the same time, I had these dreams and aspirations or I thought I did. I'm kind of a jack of all trades and a master of absolutely nothing, which is partly my personality and partly because I'm really lazy by nature too. So I said I'd do this. I said I'd be a jet fighter pilot. I said I'd be a doctor. And then I said I'd be an archaeologist. And I actually really was interested in archaeology because I love history.

And then I settled on social work because I love adoption. I've been passionate about it since I was a kid. And I worked at a homeless shelter for a couple of years. So I kind of got my feet wet there. I just decided I was burned out from school. And at that point, Isaac and I had our first kid. And so the path was chosen for me already. I mean, I could have. I could have worked, but I didn't want to. It was really important to me, even though it was all kind of happening. I was only 23 when I had our oldest child.

It all kind of happened before I expected. And in some ways, I felt like life was happening to me. But I was faced with a decision at that point. And I decided I wanted to stay home and raise my kids. So you initially wanted to do all these things, though. Was it hard for you to transition into the whole like, okay, I'm no longer defining success that way. I'm no longer trying to achieve in this way. Like success is going to look like being at home and like loving a little thing really well.

A little bit, but I don't think I realized how hard parenting would be, or I probably would have felt maybe the weight of that sacrifice in quotes more, you know, I think that I didn't take anything really that seriously. I didn't take parenting that seriously at first that's probably getting ahead of ourselves but I didn't take anything.

adulting seriously. Why? What do you mean by that? That's kind of complicated. I kind of feel like I had a lot of arrested development even when I got married and first had kids. I think I had a lot of growing up to do still and I didn't know I did. So fair, yeah. I think that if I had not had kids right away and started a career, I think that would have been like

oh my gosh, this adult stuff is really hard. It's hard for everybody. It is legit harder for some people than others. I didn't learn a lot of the things that I needed to learn growing up. My parents were awesome in a lot of ways, but they weren't really, they didn't like disciple us. They didn't, they didn't teach us about growing up. They were there, they worked, but they didn't like teach us the nitty gritty about life. And so I've had to parent myself while I've parented my kids

It's kind of weird. No, it makes sense. And I actually tell my dad this a bit because I think his family was a bit the same. I wonder if it's a generational thing. Like the generation that raised you wanted to protect you because like their parents went through so many wars. And then it was like all of a sudden you had this opportunity to just let these kids be kids and like let them worry about nothing. And I mean, the 80s were fun. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like each generation...

deals with hardship differently and in the way they deal with it really affects what they pass on to their kids right my grandparents grew up in the depression and went through wars like you're talking about and so it was really important to them to make as much money as they could yeah but then my mom was raised by a babysitter and she decided she was not going to do that so she was there for me every day but she also grew up in this house where it wasn't okay to talk about your feelings and

Even though she can to some degree, that didn't translate into knowing how to actually teach us about life. Right? Yeah. And I would say my mom would say the exact same thing. Like I've had a conversation with her where she's like, I grew up next to you. Yes. And it's cool as a child, though, like to be able to see your parent change. But yeah. What was that like as a mom going through that? You know, I thought I was doing well for a long time. But it was I was really just like treadmill parenting.

I didn't realize until our oldest was probably, I mean, this is going to sound so delinquent, but I don't think I put in any hard cognition when it comes to parenting until our oldest was at least 10. Why? Because it's hard.

It's hard. And I think I thought I'm arrogant and I thought I have strong opinions. And I, we grew up having these strong conversations, but not really saying anything, not having any real pushback to where I might have realized that

oh my word, these beliefs I hold dearly have lots of holes in them. I don't think I ever really got the pushback to where I realized I needed to put in hard mental work to really even figure out what I think about myself and what I believe. And I carry that over into parenting. So I didn't realize that I was not parenting him. So I would, it's funny, we unschooled our oldest. I don't know how many of your listeners would know what that is, but it's kind of a branch of homeschool where it's child-led learning.

And it sounds cool, and it is a lot of the time. It's like, okay, maybe you don't do math and reading. Instead, your kid wants to play Legos, and they learn that way. They love engineering, and so you go on all kinds of cool field trips to foster that love, right? But a lot of the time, it can turn into unparenting, where your kid, it's not even about their education. They're just not even being parented. And I feel like we did that with him. So it sounded cool to people, and we would talk like we're –

living this really rich life but he needed more from me he needed me to be an adult and set down strong parameters that I didn't do and so I don't even to answer your question I didn't even know that I was failing at it for a long time until he was older and then we really started to put in the hard work and it was hard because I would say our kids weren't used to us thinking hard about things and say no to certain things and yes to other things you mentioned that like the way that you were

Kind of came into your parenting. Do you feel like that's accurate to say, like, as a mom and just as a person, who you are and how you develop yourself, like, it will come into your parenting always? Like, there's direct correlation? Always. 100%. 100%. And I would say your kids are going to push against your weak spot.

spots you know like I I feel like the only thing that ever made me really work on myself as a person because I told you I'm lazy and arrogant and conceited the only thing that's ever some people are just intrinsically better people they're intrinsically motivated I'm more extrinsically motivated like if I don't feel well or if I feel the shame of people around me I will work on myself like

I'm a Christian. I feel like God was convicting me of how I was failing my kids and I couldn't handle that feeling. So working on myself made me a better parent and we all benefit. Was that hard for you? And like, do you feel different at all? Or like the way that you interact with the world? You mean like as I've worked on myself? Yeah. Yes. I feel totally different and I feel a lot closer to God. I don't know how many of your listeners are Christians, but for me, when I started, it's interesting because I,

When I started to really put in this head down work on being a better parent, which requires I be a better person myself, I started to have some kind of health issues pop up. And I've read the book, The Body Keeps the Score. I'd already read that. I read that when my dad was sick and dying. And it, so it made sense to me. It was scary, but I felt like, oh, this is the inevitable. As we're working on ourselves and our inner lives, it can manifest physically. And so that was different for me, but I,

I felt like I had to kind of just lay it all bare. Like, well, this is the life I've chosen. I've made these mistakes. I'm really hoping that I will have the grace to get through all this and be a better parent. And they kind of both started to resolve at the same time. Better relationships with my kids. Yeah, more of like a sense of equanimity with the world. And I feel better physically. Strange. It's holistic, right? Yeah.

Yeah. What did you start doing? I read a book called You Can Heal Your Life by Louise Hay, which that's not even a Christian book, but it's just the whole premise is any part of yourself, mental, physical, spiritual, you're in the driver's seat. We don't get to choose the things that happen to us in many circumstances, but the whole idea is work through your pain and trauma and figure it out and release it. And I just, gosh, it's hard to even, it's hard to parse it out.

But I did a lot of praying and really being sorry for the mistakes I've made that I can still remember. And I think that kind of just set me on a different path. I still get really angry at drivers on the road. But my seven-year-old was telling me, Mom, Dad said not to get angry on the road today. And I was like, oh, he's right. That is the one. I really cannot make progress in this. But everything else I've let go of more.

I really, you have to, you know? Is it, was it hard to like show up differently? Like, so you're,

Right. Like the ideal and like the mental ideals that you come into marriage and you're perfectly ready and then you have kids and you're perfectly ready and like, you know, they're great. No such thing. But there's literally no such thing. So sometimes it's that idea that you have to build the plane while you're in the air or whatever. Yep. It's like. Get till you make it. Yeah. Like we're already going. I need to fix something. Best time to start is now. Like what am I going to do? And like the hard part is.

Sometimes you don't see immediate change, but you just have to kind of commit to it. Yeah. So what did that look like changing the whole way that you were parenting? And did you show up differently in your marriage too? Probably. I think that...

being gut-wrenchingly honest with myself about the things I really dislike and the ways in which I've been like I started to realize Heather you've been actually kind of a villain like we want to think we're the hero of the story and at times we're the villains so I think that being that gut-wrenchingly piercingly honest about the ways in which we fail I mean if you're that way with your spouse and they're bringing the same thing to the table you can't help but benefit

You know, like who isn't really enamored by that vulnerability, right? So, but a lot of that process was messing up over and over and over again, but this time messing up and knowing what you did wrong right away. I messed up, but I realized it right away where before I was messing up and just feeling like I was right to be angry. You know what I mean?

And this time, you know, you just keep reminding yourself. It's like, I feel like I fell off the bicycle just like a million times and it's all bloodied and bruised. But eventually you remember like, oh, wait, I'm not shouting at my kids as much. I've decided not to do that. Right. Like going back. I'm sorry. I keep saying I'm sorry. I keep messing up. Please forgive me over and over and over as long as it takes. That's what it looked like. It was really bumpy. It was not a smooth transition. I'm just kind of like a lullaby.

mess up in front of everybody all the time kind of person which is why I always feel the need when people say really kind things to me about parenting I'm like well let's hear what my kids have to say about it really you know what I mean yeah they have seen me improve I think the fact that I have a good relationship with my oldest who's 20 when I'm he's a guinea pig I made so many mistakes with him but he loves me and he wants to be around me so we've made progress

It's interesting because some people are very much like the, okay, flip switches, I'm done. And then other people are like two steps forward, one step back. And I'm definitely the two step forward, one step back kind of person where like I'll fail and then I'll remind myself like, it's okay, this is a journey. And like sometimes you put so much emphasis on trying to show up every single time the right way, but just reminding yourself that like, okay, there's a broader span here. So you mentioned that you shout less in the car. Kind of.

Do you feel like you're less angry overall now? Or like, how would you feel like your relationship with the world is? And I mean, do you even have a definition of success to you? Like, I know a lot of people have their definition of success that is influenced so heavily by the world and like what they're doing or things like that. But how would you define that for yourself? Oh my gosh, I've asked myself this question. I don't know if I know. And I'm kind of all over the place about

what it even means to be successful. And I'll have days where I feel like, what am I doing? I'm such a failure. Why am I? So I don't, I don't know. I would say I definitely don't have an idea of success that most people probably do. I think that if I get through each day and there's peace in my house, that feels like success. I don't know that I have success.

What are you chasing? Like, what do you want? I want to raise kids who are good people and love God and finish their life strong. And I want the same for myself. So it's kind of big and vague, but it feels specific to me. I've never been...

I've never been super into a specific dream. That's not who I am. I'm more like a bumbling through every day. And you know, my husband Isaac and I will talk about, he will try to get me to talk about where do you want to be in five years, 10 years, 15 years, which I feel like you're probably like that too, right? That question cripples me. I don't even know how to answer it. It almost splinters my brain. So all I know is I'm like, I just want to get through today and I want us all to love each other at the end of the day. But

maybe this was kind of related to that I would I feel like having been a mom for 20 years now and a mom who hasn't had to earn any money that whole time and a mom who's youngest to seven and less needy of me now I have this little voice in me saying okay Heather it's time for you to push yourself a little more because even though I'm messy about it and I don't do anything really well I

I say that to say like I don't have the homeschooling thing down pat, but I look like I do. And I think that I need to kind of venture into a different realm. So I love, Ella, you know that I love herbalism. I love foraging. I love being outside. And I've toyed around with the idea of maybe monetizing that somehow.

I don't know what that would look like. I don't even like that I just said that out loud because now I feel like I have to make it happen. But I feel like it's time for me to start switching gears just a little bit and thinking about what's next. So that's about as much as I can answer that question.

No, that's huge. That's huge though. And like, did you always, whenever you were homeschooling or like whenever you went into it, I know that everybody looks at each other. Like in whatever world you're in, like everybody will look at each other and compare. Did you do that too? Yes. All the time? Yes. You mean like comparing myself to other homeschool moms? Yeah. 100%. And yeah, there are types of homeschool.

Yes. And there are homeschool moms that are really rigid and they get a lot done. Their children are, you know, learning Greek. They're, they're getting a classical education or there are the moms who I kind of got connected with a group in Tennessee called wild and free. They're awesome moms.

But it can feel like everyone in this group is beautiful all the time. Their houses are perfectly clean. They all look like they're these gorgeous modern farmhouses. And if you don't have six kids and they don't all look beautiful and perfect and happy all the time, then you're failing.

So, yeah, I've looked at all the different types of homeschool moms and felt utterly inferior. I know that in a different mood, I know that's ridiculous, but I waffle back and forth all the time and I have for years. I think that's probably the human condition. But yeah, yeah, definitely. And then like whenever it comes to like you just as an individual, something that it seems like, which I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you're pretty comfortable with yourself. Yeah.

I am at times. I have moments. I have gone through times of depression throughout my life. When I was a teen, I did. After certain pregnancies, I did. Even through phases unrelated to those, there are times when I've gotten fairly blue. So I'm not going to make it sound like I'm always comfortable with myself.

But when I'm, when I zoom out, I am. Yeah. For the most part, I am. Have you always been, or was that process? That's a process. Yeah. That's been a process. So as a teenager, I was not, I actually really disliked myself and you know, your teenage years are hard. That's probably a whole other thing to jump into. I had some things in my life I was not very happy about, some struggles, but yeah, getting to the point where I'm like,

like pretty comfortable with myself has been a real process. I'm 43 and it's, I mean, it's taken every year of my life to get to where I am now. What would you recommend to like younger people? It's interesting too, as a side note, it seems like your kids are really comfortable with themselves. Is it just the way that you raise them? Do you think? No, I would say, I mean, maybe a little bit, but only in that I feel like they're free to talk.

they're free to express themselves. I mean, sometimes too much where I'll look at them and be like, that was rude. So for better, for worse, they're free to express themselves. And so I think that probably partially accounts for that. But I think that that's the natural state of children. I think that's just how humans are. And if they're not impeded by, you know, being forced to do a lot of things they don't want to do for K through 12,

Or like beyond. Or even social stereotypes or like social pressures. What would you recommend to somebody that like, let's say they've gone through all the traditional school, they've gone through traditional programs, whatever. They had a lot of social pressure and now they're in this period where they're trying to figure out like, okay, I need to be comfortable with myself. Oh.

I need to know myself. I need to like get to this place where in the least, like I can be honest enough with myself about where I want to be. What would you recommend there? Like for that? Read a lot.

Read a ton. Put your phone down and read a ton. Go for walks without your phone and just observe everything around you. And actually, this actually popped into my head today because I'll just space out and imagine stuff. I really think one of the most important things for anybody to do is wherever you are, if you're in your house, if you're in your car, you're at the store, you're at work, wherever you are on a walk, look for people to help.

Because it doesn't seem like it would do anything for you in terms of discovering who you are. It does, though. It's magical. You'll have this amazing connection with that person. And just taking your eyes off yourself benefits yourself. Look for people to help, old people, young people, somebody that's all put together and beautiful and putting off the vibe that they don't want help. If they need help opening a door, open the door. Find people to help.

Yeah. Maybe that even more than reading, but reading too. Reading definitely, reading definitely expanded my perspective of like who I could possibly be. It also, one of the things that we were talking about before was that like, that when you are young, you compare yourself to the examples that you have in your life. So it's like, I compared, do I want to homeschool with only the homeschool around me? Or like you compared, do I want to be a working mom with only the working moms around you? And like,

that is a really small subset of the population that you're comparing yourself and what you could possibly do to. Did you create your own definition of homeschool or how did that change? Because like you said, you're a jack of all trades, right? You've done a ton of things and it's actually kind of quite impressive because you have a lot of knowledge and like all kinds of different areas. But did you define that yourself? Because I would say homeschool is like your homeschool is just so unique to you.

That's true. I think in some ways I de facto defined it myself. I no doubt I brought it's somewhat informed by how I was homeschooled. But that was more structured than I began with, you know, we, especially Isaac, especially my husband at first, he spent a lot of time reading about what education means for kids and, you know, kind of like.

Just sort of out of the box learning about home education. So that informed it a little bit. But honestly, the main thing at the beginning was I had an out of the box kid who wasn't going to do what he didn't want to do. And so all the things, all the preconceived ideas I had about homeschool, I tried with him and it didn't work. We were fighting all the time. And I know everyone's going to say, well, sorry, kids, they'd have to learn. They're going to learn.

And I just sort of threw out my hands and I said, I can't live this way anymore. He, I don't know. I don't know what this means for the future, but whatever I'm trying right now is not working. I didn't even know about unschooling at this point. This is a little earlier on, but you know what?

Then he taught himself to read. The kid taught himself to read. Calvin and Hobbes. He read through all of Calvin and Hobbes. Thank you, Bill Watterson. And he would come to us when he couldn't pronounce a word because there's lots of huge words in those comics. But the kid learned to read on his own. And then math, here you go. He wanted to go to a small private school in like eighth grade. He spent the whole summer before that learning math. K through seventh grade math in one summer.

Seriously. I can tell people that now I couldn't at the time. They would have called a truancy officer on me, but it didn't work with him. Now with my other kids, we do things differently. I can make them. I also know better how to pick my battles and make the kids do some things they need to do. I didn't know how to do that then. All I knew was that we were battling and fighting and it was really miserable. But there you go. Kids will learn what they need to learn. So I kind of figured it out.

Through trial and error and then also educating myself, I've listened to a lot of podcasts about education. For many years, I listened to this awesome podcast called The School Sucks Podcast. It used to be cool. I don't even know if it's on anymore. I haven't listened to it for probably 10 years. But anyway, so my learning about education

what I even believe about homeschool has been all over the place and mostly probably trial and error based on my kids. Yeah, I love that. Why do you think it's so difficult for young women to decide if they want to homeschool? Like you've, you've experienced a lot of people going into homeschool and, and also probably coming out of it, like deciding it's not for them, but like,

And more than that, even like staying at home, being a stay at home mom, right? Like that decision, whenever, let's say you get married and then you're looking at your family and saying, hmm, I want to be more present or whatever it is. Like, why do you think that that is so hard for us? I think it won't be as hard in a few years, but the whole, the age we've been in has

has been very against that. You know, for whatever reason, everybody's got their views and reasons and thoughts on the age we live in and are coming out of it. But the age and society have been absolutely 100% against and they don't give any strokes to that kind of life and that choice. It's all been college and career. And I'm not against those things at all. But it's been you should want those before you should want to be a mommy at all costs.

And I think that's shifting, personally. But if you know you're going to be facing derision or even wrath sometimes because of that decision, that's hard. It's hard to go against the grain. Honestly, whenever I meet a young mom who chose homeschool on her own, wasn't in her paradigm growing up, I'm like, you're amazing. Because I don't know if I would have if my mom hadn't seen that out for me. My mom was a pioneer. She came from a family of academics, right?

And they looked down on her choice to homeschool. She was amazing. She blazed the trail. I don't think I would have done it. I don't think I have the courage to do that if I didn't have that laid out for me. It's just different. And I think, going back to what you're asking, we'll see more people. You know, there's a shift toward more traditional approaches to life now. So I think we're going to see more people being willing to take that risk. I think it's...

approaches to life that enrich your life like yeah like things that are enriching right and like it's interesting to me how non-enriching some parts of life are and how how non-enriching they can be and and you can just accept that do you mean specifically like certain types of education just or not not education per se but like um like some people can

work for years travel all the time never see their family for money and that's it and like like there's no there's no there's no fulfilling aspect of it it's just like it's just the like I

I do X, you give me Y. And like, Y is most important to me enough that I'm going to put all of these things that could enrich my life so much. And maybe that's like you were saying before, like maybe it's a privilege to be able to say that. But like, I grew up in a family that was also very poor. And like being able to watch people

your family make choices, right? Like I didn't go on vacations. My public school friends did, right? Or like, and like, it's just, what do you want? What kind of life do you want to live? And then on the other side of that, I think, I think that's, that's where I've been sitting and also just like having a lot of conversations with my friends and

The question of like what would enrich your life is a really hard question to answer sometimes. Or like what do you want even like you were saying. Like it's so hard to answer. And I feel like at certain parts of your life, life asks you that question more. It's like at the beginning before you do anything. And then as a mom, whenever your kids go away and like they're old enough that you don't have to focus on them as much. Then it's like, okay, that comes up again because –

I mean, we've all seen somebody who gets old and then has no purpose. And like, you know, you need purpose to live life well. 100%. I personally think that that's what the midlife crisis is. I feel like it's life saying, what are you doing? Are you doing what you really want to be doing? Figure it out. You know, it's a wake up call to get off the conveyor belt life. I feel like everybody's on this.

bare belt life. You get married when you finally decide to and you automatically have kids. You automatically have a dog. You automatically rack up debt. I'm like, think. But we're not, we don't live in a world where you can think because we're not encouraged to imagine. Imagination is key to everything. Think and imagine or else it's not even in your paradigm. You can't even conceptualize it. I think a lot of people get stuck in the working four years traveling like you're talking about because

They don't even think of there being an alternative. It's hard to assume. Well, it's hard to understand that there's an alternative. And then it's also hard because everybody tells you the other one is safe. Yes. And, like, secure. Yeah. And it's not actually. Right. Which is hard. Right. And, like, none of life is safe and secure. And it's like... Yeah. Safety at all costs? No. What does that even mean? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's very interesting to me because...

At least in this stage of my life, everybody around me is asking – well, I think you're right. Like there's a midlife crisis. There's also something I think just with – maybe it's like remote work. Maybe it's like this change in sentiment. Like we don't actually have to choose things that we don't love. Yeah. And I think that's also coming into –

uh slowly but the way that people view motherhood yeah so like yeah initially the way that I think people are viewing motherhood is is like okay I'll just work from home I talked to somebody that that did that or tried that and she's like it is so hard to work from home and to have a baby I believe like oh my gosh I've often thought that'd be so hard yeah like I don't actually I don't think it's as easy as people think but I do think the like

The way to rethink motherhood now is probably in seasons. Okay, if I focus fully right now because they're so young and they need me and like I just want to be present for them and then I maintain something. So it's like you put your time into podcasts and like learning herbalism and learning, you know, cooking and like all these different cool things. If you keep on learning something, then by the time you're ready to go back and do something with it, you can. Yeah, so it won't be this –

wild jarring pivot right yeah and I think like I think you can actually view your life like that yeah I agree yeah I totally agree and I really feel like it's the same I mean life is hard for everybody it doesn't matter who you are and how old you are man or woman whatever mother not a mother everything is hard it's just make the best choice you can be gut-wrenchingly honest with yourself

And like, I think that you're so right. I think that it almost makes sense to look at, to compartmentalize it in a way where, okay, maybe I'm, when I had all babies, I mean, my kids were not that close together, but when they were all really little, the things I can do now were not possible then. But at that point, it's still, I looked, I looked at the path of motherhood and it felt like this long, you know, mundane line of drudgery.

It wasn't like that at all. It was all over the place and it was dynamic. And some things are possible now that weren't then. Some things were possible then that aren't now. Like I had peaceful afternoons when the babies were sleeping. I don't have now, but I have other things. I can go make a Hawthorne leaf and berry tincture uninterrupted for the most part. Right. And just flowing with that. Isn't that life for everyone? Don't we all have seasons? So.

So why do you think we imagine this like long life of drudgery? Like I've, I've sat there and like actually had that exact thought where it's like, Oh, that could be my future. And I despise that as my future. Well,

Well, that could be the reality if we looked at it that way. And I have days where I feel like that. I'll look around and be like, all I do is go around and pick up stuff around this house. And that is, I mean, for the rest of my life. That's what I am going to be going around picking stuff up around the house. It's going to be different when it's just Isaac and me someday. But I have to change the way I look at it.

And I'm saying that to myself right now, too, because that's what I'm really bad at is elevating my mind out of those moments where I feel like it's all a drudgery. That's a challenge in life for everyone.

Whether you're home with kids changing diapers or whether you're going to the office every day is elevating our mindset from the drudgery. Is a way that you did that by having hobbies or like things that you did too? Or how did you do that? Well, because I think I don't do that. Well, okay, but I'm, I'm like increasingly aware of it. I think it's that I don't want to be sad and I don't want to feel melancholy. And it's kind of like breaking a spell when you realize like,

This is just how I'm looking at it. That's what, that's what's going on here. This it's just a lot of this cloud over me is just because I'm looking at it a certain way. And it's like, then you fake it till you make it. I'm going to put a smile on my face. And I'm not saying everyone has to fake everything, but for me,

That really works. Just kind of like shift things a bit, right? Yeah, sometimes this is a funny example, but probably, possibly, actually, possibly relatable. Sometimes I'll get frustrated with somebody, particularly my boyfriend, and then I'll sit there. Oh, what? And then I'll sit there and I'll just be like,

No, there's really no reason for me to be frustrated. Like I just need to I just need to snap out of it. And like snapping out of it is so hard sometimes. But like you just have to choose to and like somehow make yourself do it. Yeah. Maybe there's time to pull up that thread and see am I chronically frustrated about this certain thing? Is there something to be worked out? Yeah. Okay.

But, you know, it either is or it isn't. And if you decide it's, am I going to get rid of laundry? No. I mean, I guess I could hire a service, but that doesn't make sense to me. So I'm just going to like just deal with the laundry. Right. And laundry is drudgery. But, you know, one way that I've made it work better is I listen to a podcast while I'm doing it. And now I strangely look forward to it.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's a little hack, right? I guess. No, it is. I told myself this past year, I was like, I'm going to love doing the dishes because that's going to serve me in my life. And so and so literally every single time that I went to do the dishes, I'd like consciously tell myself I love doing the dishes. And like now I actually kind of enjoy it a little bit more than I did before.

You're moving in the right direction, right? Yeah. And I do think that that's like really valuable to be able to recognize those parts of yourself that you can almost just like will. Like this is a funny example, but my brother literally will his hair to turn curly. I don't know what he did, but like he would look at his hair in the mirror every single day and like he would like move his hair around and like, yeah. And he would look up some things and

Eventually, it actually did turn so curly. I mean, I'm surprised and not surprised at the same time. Yeah, not surprised to be honest. Awesome. There's power in our thoughts and our will, for sure. There's so much power in our thoughts and our will. And I think something else that's cool is

when, I mean, I'm Christian as well. And like, when you view your life as this thing that is meant to perfect you, like this thing that's meant to make you better, right? Not just this thing that that's meant to consume or like enjoy pleasurably and that's it. It makes those things a lot easier because it's like when I'm frustrated and I know that I really have no right to be frustrated and it's okay to get over it. It's like,

okay, this is important for me to be better toward that goal. And all these people in your life, your husband, your kids, your family, they're all helpers in that journey too. Absolutely. Yeah. You feel like you're working with instead of antagonistic towards, right? It's a crucible. You're burning out impurities, but only if you're willing to. It's hard though, because we have days where we feel like everything and everyone's against us.

that's just resistance to get through saying it to myself first this whole whole first part of today was like that too and I was so angry all the boomers on the road I live in Florida and there are lots of older people down here and they frustrate me on the road so that was my that was resistance this morning my seven-year-old had to call me out and he did okay so toward the end of this podcast one other thing that I want to chat chat about a little bit and then and then I'll ask you a couple rapid fire questions is your relationship with Isaac so you

Obviously, y'all got together. Y'all have grown a ton. Yes. How have y'all grown together? Because some couples grow apart, right? Like they start great and it's like they grow apart. But y'all started and then continued growing together. Yeah. Gosh, yeah. 21 years and we've gone through phases of growing.

you know, more closeness, less closeness, although we've still always been close. I really like him and he really likes me. And I think that that is such a,

a binding agent. We like to read the same kinds of things. It's shifted a bit. He might read a book now that I would never... I'm not going to read that. I'm not even going to pretend to like it. But I like hearing his thoughts on it. So I like him still and he likes me still. And I think that maybe part of that is we chose each other well. Part of that might just be

Good luck and grace, but we work at it too. It's interesting because at the beginning, the early years when we first were together, I almost feel like we were growing up still and almost like a little codependent. And so it's been interesting to watch us come into our own as individuals and

And like observe that and be okay with it. Because if you're codependent, it's a little strange seeing two distinct people emerge, right? But we've been through a lot together. We've never given up. I mean, honestly, we're not giving up. It's not a possibility. And so the only thing to do is to get through it. Anything hard. Did you always have that mindset? Yes. So it was always like this solid, we're in this period thing.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like there's, there's no way out. But us getting through life together. That's what I want. You know, that was our upbringing. My parents were together. I mean, it's not, it's not a judgment on any relationships that end. Life is really hard. And there are all kinds of reasons why relationships end.

But it's just not on the table for us. And I'm sure it makes a difference when you come from two sets of parents who are still together. I mean, Isaac's parents have been through a lot. His dad was in a catastrophic car crash when Isaac was three. And his mom did not outsource his care. His mom has been his dad's caretaker for almost 40 years.

That's resilience. That's a good example to us that doesn't matter what comes, you're in it together, right? So I mean, number one, there's no way out. You know what I mean? That's not an option. So you're really forced to get along.

But then I like them still too. That's interesting. And actually, the fact that you brought that up yesterday or two days ago, I met Isaac's mom. And actually, I had this flashback to this movie that I watched. It's a terrible movie. Would not recommend it. But it taught me something. It was...

a beautiful mind or something like that russell crowe yeah i've seen that it's been a long time yeah and i had been asking myself a question like what does it mean to be married a lot because i'd i know the answer like i know the answer from a catholic perspective and i know the answer from you know a law perspective and i know the answer but i was i was really wanting something more tangible and then i watched this movie which like in the case that you described

Her husband ends up having a disease and then she has to take care of everything. But she still loves him so well. Like that is what marriage is. It's like I'm choosing you so that if your life changes, my life changes. Absolutely. And like that's crazy. Yes. But it's awesome. It's a choice. I mean, we are in the driver's seat. We can't choose what happens to us, but we choose how we react. It's a choice. 100%.

And like, you'll feel sometimes like it's not a choice, you know, like our lower selves, our lesser selves want us to think, want us to at least feel like we're victims and, and,

We got to get rid of that. It's not, it never serves us. It never serves us. Even when maybe we are being victimized in some way. I just mean like, how do you combat that though? Like, like I feel like that's, that's pretty easy to do is whether it's in a relationship or literally any other part of your life. Like you feel like you're being victimized. You can put up a stink. And then especially if it's in your relationship, like you can tell your husband, like, oh, you're not loving me well. Right. But how do you take ownership of that? Yeah.

Well, I mean, for me personally, if I've just observed, if I'm feeling, if I'm in a state of mind where I'm feeling like a victim and then I try to go solve the situation in that mindset, it always blows back in my face. It just doesn't work. If I can reorient myself and wrap my head around what I want to change, it may or may not change. But if I

can just kind of calm myself down and get out of that victim-y feeling, I'm more likely to have a better outcome. That's just, it's really like nuts and bolts pragmatic. But I, a lot of the time, Ella, I just pray too. I'm like, I don't know what to think right now. God help me. You know what I mean? So I've learned a few pragmatic things. And then a big part of it is just kind of like knowing that I need help outside of myself for sure.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Last question about you and Isaac and then we'll hop to some rapid fire. So when you think back about your marriage and your relationship with Isaac, what are you most proud of? I'm really proud of the fact that we still like each other.

I love playing pickleball with him. We get really competitive. I love that we can have fun together. Has that always been the case? Always. And, like, we'll be mad at each other, but we can go play pickleball and, like, take it out that way. And it's fun. And, you know, I get over things pretty quickly. Having, like, short-term anger helps. Yeah. So that helps, too. But we have a lot of fun together. And it's just...

I mean, we've gone through... This is going to sound... I feel like the takeaway, maybe for your listeners, is that we've had an especially rosy marriage. Oh, it's hard. In fact, our last six years have been the hardest ever. So I feel like there have been a few things that...

Maybe from having gotten married and had kids young, we kind of didn't work through that we've had to work through later on in our marriage. And it was harder to do that. But we did it and we got through it. And it required being really vulnerable and really honest and giving each other space to be upset for a while. That's been one of the hardest things for me in marriage is being okay with him being upset with me for a certain amount of time. And just living in that, functioning throughout life.

knowing he still loves me, but he's not happy with me right now for a while. Like I couldn't, I couldn't deal with that. I needed him to like me at all times when we first got married. So that's been a challenge, but I'm really proud of being able to get through that. And I'm really, really proud of us learning together to be better parents. You know, like that's huge. It's been everything that are all of our kids love us and want to talk to us. How would you recommend people go about finding the right person? I think that this isn't,

quite answering but it's like a pre-answer think a little bit less about the person you're looking for and just really work on yourself it's it's like yeah you still have to get out there i know that it's really hard for young people these days to have like face-to-face contact and really get out there and meet people but

I also really feel like if you put your phone down and you just do really hard inner work on yourself, get into better shape, do the real hard like character work, you know, like life finds a way of drawing people to you. Church too. Church is, I grew up in the church and I have had issues with it, but I feel like it's the way to meet good people. So work on yourself and then go where there are good people or people that have values, right? Yes, absolutely. Um,

Yeah, it's like when you break it down, it's like, okay, what are the things that you value? How is it that if you paint out your perfect life, what do you do well if you're like working out awesome? Like it seems like you all like each other because you have things in common too. Yes. Like the more that you overlap, the nicer it is. Yeah. And the easier it is to kind of like grow together because it's like you keep on overlapping. 100%. Yeah, and you have to make the other person a priority. Like you're already talking about being in a relationship.

It often doesn't feel good. There are other things that you feel like doing more. Maybe you feel like going out on a run, even though you know you've got this issue you've got to work through with your significant other. You've got to do the hard work before and during relationships. It's hard work, and it doesn't feel good for a long time, but it pays off. It has to pay off.

I love it. Okay. Wrap it to our questions really quickly. I'm scared. No, no, they're not. They're not scary. Okay. Question number one is because you're such a good hostess and no, you literally are so good. You're the best. What like five things are a must whenever somebody comes to your home? Let's say that we're talking to a woman that is new to having a home and she's just like, okay, my mom did not tell me where to begin. Well, I would be that person. I love my mom, but you know, she's probably in that with

me. We were smiling a hug. If there are people that are okay with hugs, like, you know, err on the side of hugging them. I feel like warmth goes really far. Like I am a huggy warm person. I'm really grouchy and moody, but I am a warm person. And I think people like that. So

So offer them a comfortable place to sit right away. Don't let them walk in and feel like they're interrupting something. Right. And I would say this is something that's been hard for me to learn. Unplug all the kids from devices before people are coming because they need time to, I mean, I'm really trying to just rein that in with my kids and life anyway, but guests coming over want to feel like they've been expected and not like they're interrupting. Have food for them to eat.

Food and water, you know, especially because it gives you something to do with your hands. Oh, that's interesting. The hand thing. Drink, food to eat. Because like people are nervous or something? They're nervous, yeah. Okay, interesting. So something for them to do even like music on or some trivia cards because I have walked into certain situations where if I didn't have something to do with my nervous energy, I would have fallen to pieces.

And there was a family in particular that I learned so much from. We were dear friends with them for years in Charleston. And this lady, she's just the best hostess. I learned so much from her. You don't necessarily learn about grace in

employees and hosting when you're from Michigan but this lady had a wonderful upbringing in Maine and she learned the arts of hosting I learned so much from her I took so much away from that and some of the things I just said to you yeah that's so cool and so did you just kind of like you were just there a lot and asking her questions or like I just watched I just observed

Because we were friends and we were at their house a lot and I would like take mental notes and at times feel like I'm so boorish for not. I remember coming over and not bringing a bottle of wine and I didn't know I'm from Michigan.

People say, bring this or that in Michigan. And you say, okay, you know, I'm bringing a casserole because it's Michigan. But in other parts of the country, especially more affluent areas, you just bring something. You know you're just going to bring something. Well, I didn't know that growing up, but probably partly because I was poor. Anyway, so I learned that from them. You never come empty-handed, right? Anyway. I love that. It's crazy. Like all those little things that, I mean, I –

I don't think they give you a handbook on what it's like to be a mom too, though, because it's like, what does your daughter need to know? Like, my mom didn't tell me a lot of things, but I don't think she knew to tell me, you know, and like her mom, her mom didn't tell her either. It's just like, it's like they assume that you learn through osmosis, but it'd be easier if they just told you. Yes. And I, I need to know now that there are things that I'm not telling my girls, my children that they would have needed to know. I'm failing. Part of me is failing. Yep.

Yeah. Being okay with that. It sucks, but it's life, you know? True. What is something else that you learned the hard way?

that you wish that you would have learned sooner? Managing money. Managing money. I'm terrible myself, naturally. I'm terrible with money. Why do you think? Some people have an innate ability to manage money. I don't. But then on top of that, I was not reared to be good with money at all. I spent everything I ever had. I'm still like that. So thank goodness that my husband's really good with money. And we've had hard conversations. Like,

I have a certain amount of money I run our household with. I don't even look at what's in our other bank accounts because I know I can't handle that. To me, that's like, ooh, we can go to the mall. And that's not how you act as a grownup. So that's part of working through our marriage together too, right? Is knowing who's better with money and trusting that

Okay, so you're talking about imagining a while ago, like the power of imagination, why it's so good. What is a good question for people to ask themselves to imagine, like a good prompt that somebody could sit with, with the imagine question? It's hard for me to answer because I've been a reader my whole life. And so reading launches my imagination. Just be on a walk and...

I just kind of start to float away and think about stuff. I love science fiction. So my brain goes there too. Like I love Lord of the Rings trilogy. I'm into fantasy like that. I love everything. So it's hard for me to extricate. I don't even know if I would have a sense of imagination without having been quite a reader since I was like eight. But you know, the thing is your imagination just takes over on its own if you're unplugged from

That's huge. Actually, yes, you're right. For me, I'm 43 and there were no cell phones when I was a kid. So I see this, but I can see how your generation and younger, it's probably not even in your paradigm necessarily to know that just –

If you literally just leave your phone right there on that table and go outside without it, you'll be okay. And trust your brain to take over. I mean, you're not like that, but a lot of people are. Like, it's just not how your brain's wired anymore, right? And it's not even just that. Like, for Lent, so Catholics give things up for Lent. And, like, for Lent, I gave up any –

like intermediate or intermediary noise. So like I always had a podcast on or like if I'm showering, a podcast is on or if I'm cooking, a podcast is on or like if I'm outside walking, I'm talking on the phone or like there's no silence ever in my life or like if I was getting dressed, there was noise. And so like

I took that away and it's been so interesting to me. Just hard at first. It's still hard. Like I'll look down at my phone and be like, Oh no, no, I can't. Yeah. And like, it's still so hard, but I've,

I've noticed that my relationship with the world that I'm living in is actually deeper and stronger. And like you're saying, like your imagination actually picks up a lot whenever you give it the space to for sure, which is really cool. It is really cool, but you almost have to like trust the process, especially I feel like young people these days. I think that the quiet is like overwhelming to a lot of people. It's like that resounding silence, right? It's uncomfortable until you sit in it for a while.

But it's so doable. It is. And then you can ask yourself hard questions and like actually sit with it and answer it, even though that's really hard too. Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be hard questions. Everything. Just see, just observe what floats in and out. It's like your imagination is like a muscle. It gets atrophied. You got to work at it and just observe what floats in and out. Have you heard about morning pages from Julia Cameron?

That could be something that you'd also like. So basically there's this, she's an artist and she's really cool. She actually has a book that I think you'd like too, but yeah. So what she does is she commits to every single day. She writes three pages, although sometimes I can't do that because I just don't have the time, but like where she literally will mind dump every single thing in her head. So it's like, it's like, it's like the sun is shining. It's hot. Yeah. Like literally. I can see. Yeah. It's, it's all over the bathroom. Squirrels, money.

Yeah. I have to do this one thing. Yeah. Like literally every single thing. And she just starts grabbing it. Cause then you get a lot better at grabbing the things that like float in your head. Um, instead of like barely noticing them. And so that's been something that I've been doing too. And like that alongside it.

has actually been really fascinating to just see kind of like, what does my mind gravitate toward? That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting to make a discipline what seems like chaos, right? Yeah. Cool. Because that's what the artist does, right? Yeah. Yeah, it is. Very cool. Well, this was so much fun. Did you have a last thought for best advice? On about being a woman? Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I just, this is probably not what you expect, but I feel like I've learned a lot about being a woman from reading Jane Austen. Really? So...

Actually, your humor reminds me of her, so that would make so much sense. Oh my gosh, thank you. Yeah, she's left an indelible mark in my life. Indelible. Yes, indelible. That is so Jane Austen. She would say that. She has in every book. But I read her, I started reading her when I was maybe 20, and then I reread all her books probably every decade since. It makes me feel old. And they're different every time. And what I love about her, excuse me, just really quick, is she's

Almost every one of her protagonists is a woman I aspire to be like. They may have, some of them have foibles and some flaws, but on the whole, they either come through those on top or they had amazing character all along and they stayed the narrow course. And I so admire that. And it sounds silly. Like,

She's just an author, but she, there's such integrity and character. And I really look up to that. So I've taken away so much about femininity and what it is to be a woman from her characters.

Dang. Dang. Actually, I'm going to have to do that because something I've been dying for and looking for is like, I love stories. Like I love seeing a woman that I would like to aspire to be like, and I don't see those in TV almost at all. And like, no, like almost at all. And sometimes I'll find a particular woman that has particular characteristics that I like, but like there's always the hero's journey.

And you almost have to like be able to imagine it for yourself. Like if you can see something or if you see it demonstrated, like she had this experience and then she reacted in this way. And like putting yourself in those situations is really good for character building. Absolutely. And what a good author.

that they would kind of paint a scenario where you can kind of see yourself and what you might do in that situation, right? To me, that's the mark of a really good author to make me almost feel like I'm living my life vicariously. Would I make those choices too? Well, this has been so much fun. Thank you for doing this with me. Oh, it's my pleasure. I had such a good time. I'm looking forward to our next episode. Cheers. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that.