Campus Antisemitism & Harvard Lawsuit | Eylon Levy & Shabbos Kestenbaum
51:37 Share

As I've said from day one, Harvard needs Jews, Jews don't need Harvard. And Harvard is beginning to realize that, the Democratic Party is beginning to realize that, and that will create sustainable and transformable change. Hello and welcome to State of the Nation, I'm Elon Levy. On colleges around the world, young Jews are standing up to campus bullies. In the face of rising anti-Semitism and protests celebrating Hamas's barbaric atrocities, young Jews are fighting back.

I like to tell them they're not Gen Z, they're Gen Zionists, showing colleges that you can pick on the Jews, but the Jews are no longer easy pickings. There have to be consequences to allowing pro-Hamas protests to take over the yard. Financial consequences, that means donors cancelling gifts, and legal consequences, accusing colleges of violating Jewish students' civil rights.

In the last year, we've seen a flood of so-called Title VI suits against universities. That's lawsuits under Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, alleging violations of Jewish students' civil rights. And with Donald Trump back in the White House for a second term, universities around America are reportedly scrambling to settle anti-Semitism complaints. One of them is Harvard.

Harvard just reached an agreement with Jewish students to settle two major lawsuits. While not admitting any liability or wrongdoing, it did commit to take tougher action to combat campus anti-Semitism and to ensure that Jewish and Israeli students feel welcome on campus. The coalition of students suing Harvard praised it for its leadership in the fight against anti-Semitism. But not everyone was impressed, and one plaintiff refused to settle.

His name is Shabazz Kestenbaum, and he joins me today on the podcast. Shabazz slammed the settlement as an attempt by Harvard to score PR points and tell the Trump administration the problem was fixed. But he's pushing ahead with his lawsuit. He's determined to depose Harvard's leadership under oath to put on the record in his words why they allowed anti-Semitism to fester on campus.

How much Qatar is funding Harvard? And why anti-Jewish bullies are never disciplined? We sat down to film this episode of the podcast before the news that Harvard had settled and Chávez had not. But Chávez's lawsuit is the same lawsuit. And in this conversation, we dig into why he is taking on one of the most prestigious academic institutions in the world and leaving no quarter.

Let's dive between the lines and beyond the headlines. Breaking news out of Israel this morning. Shocking hostage. Hundreds of Israelis are dead. I want to bring in Israeli government spokesman. What happened with the four-day court? Have you resolved this? Where does this go? Shabbos Kastemba and welcome to State of a Nation. Thank you for having me. Shabbos Shalom. Hey.

Very original. Very original. It's not the first time you've heard that. Not at all. I'm going to begin this podcast with a health warning. If you are used to listening to your podcast on 2x speed, you should be aware that Shabba speaks naturally at 4x speed. So if you like it at 2x, please slow down to half x right now and then you will hear it at your usual sped up pace. And I'll try talking extra quickly so that I can keep up with Shabba's.

Shabbos, I want to start off talking about your activism against antisemitism, particularly campus antisemitism, because there are two ways to try to tackle what I think everyone agrees now is a really serious problem. There's good cop, bad cop. And so if there's good Shabbos, you're playing bad Shabbos, right? Your style has been confrontational.

abrasive in your face. It's not saying, "Look, I want to deal with this quietly behind the scenes." It's thumping on the table and saying, "We're here and we have power and we're going to use it." And I want to understand

how that activism is going for you and what the nature is of the problem that you're trying to deal with on campuses. So start us off. You are now the lead plaintiff in a lawsuit against Harvard. What are you suing Harvard about? Where did that come from? What are you hoping to achieve? Sure. So first of all, let me just say it is a damning indictment on the state of higher education that for Jewish students to receive equity, equality, justice, we have to resort to a court of law. We have to go to a private lawsuit because we have no confidence in the

Department of Education, the Department of Justice, the FBI to do their own jobs. We've met with policymakers from both sides of the aisle, and there is not that sense of confidence within the U.S. government. So we filed a lawsuit in January against Harvard University pertaining to their violations of what's called Title VI of the Civil Rights Act, which is a provision of the Civil Rights Act that essentially prohibits discrimination based on

race, color, and national origin. President Trump in 2019 signed an executive order, Executive Order 13899, that implemented the IRA definition of antisemitism. Off the back of the groundbreaking lawsuit brought by our mutual friend Adela Kochal. Yes, Adela paved the way.

Her lawsuit against New York University really led to this executive order in 2019. That executive order of 2019 is now the basis of our lawsuit. So we are arguing that Harvard is an obvious violation of the Civil Rights Act. And to me, why? I mean, where do I begin? Let's start at the basics for the people who are not in the weeds, because you've been really fighting this in the trenches, but it's not obvious why Harvard.

would be in violation of the Civil Rights Act? What's the connection? What has actually been happening there? Sure. I mean, I always say that if you want to start the story, you have to go back 100 years. And it's funny because our ideological adversaries always take that approach with October 7th. And I agree. Let's go back to 1948 when the Arab nations rejected a two-state solution and tried to wipe off the Jews from the river to the sea. So let's go back 100 years. The president of Harvard University at the time is a man by the name of Abbott Lowell. Abbott Lowell thinks that there are, quote, too many damn Jews at the university. So he tries to implement... Is that a quote? That is a quote. He tries to implement...

A quota system, a legalized metric of discrimination, a cap on how many Jews are allowed into the university. And as a fun fact, there were more Jews at Harvard as a percentage under the proposed quota system than there are today. At its peak, Harvard University was 25% Jewish. Today it's 4% Jewish. And it's not because Jews got dumber over time. There has been a deliberate and systemic campaign to crack down on the amount of Jews at Harvard University. What do you mean?

If you look at the demographic change, you have seen the usurpation against Jews on college campuses, not just at Harvard, but across the Ivy Leagues, in favor of students who do not necessarily have the academic or intellectual capabilities. Hang on, are you saying that there's active discrimination in admissions?

It's not even what I'm saying. The Supreme Court found two years ago that Harvard and their affirmative action policies, their admissions criteria was, quote, unconstitutional. People forget that before October 7th, Harvard was found to have discriminated against white and Asian Americans. This is not a conservative take. It's not conjecture. It's not politics. And is that what you're suing Harvard about, the affirmative action policies that negatively affect Jewish students? We're not suing them in reference to affirmative action. We're suing them in terms of their treatment of Jewish students.

The affirmative action piece is relevant because it simply shows that Harvard has already discriminated against minority students. This is not something that is new to the scene. It's not something that appeared after October 7th. They have a strong track record of having and celebrating a culture of pervasive and systemic anti-Semitism.

So I can give you example after example. The fact that there were swastikas drawn on some of the undergraduate dorms before October 7th, the fact that there was apartheid walls being built on Harvard's campus, the fact that BDS was unanimously approved by the Harvard Crimson. This is all years and years before October 7th. You know, another example that comes to mind is there is a professor who teaches a course at Harvard called Religion and Peace, the Case of Israel-Palestine.

And this professor gets up and she says, in politics, in academia, in media, the Israeli narrative is the dominant narrative. Therefore, right, it's laughably wrong. So she says, therefore, in order to understand both sides of the story, in this class, as policy, we will not discuss, learn, study, or read any texts if they were written by Israelis.

The shocking normalization of anti-Semitism, of delegitimizing and dehumanizing the Israeli state was blatant. It was obvious. And it is a damn shame it took the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust for people to realize this. So what's the basis of the lawsuit? What are you claiming? What are you trying to get out of it?

So after October 7th, really the night of October 7th, I would say, when 34 student groups at Harvard University who saw on live TV in real time Jewish women bleeding from their private areas, they saw Jewish babies like fear crying as he's being hoarded onto a motorcycle, being deported into Gaza, saw the images of mangled, burnt bodies. 34 student groups see that and they jump out of beds to draft what they called an emergency statement to blame Jews for that thing.

We then had professors, specifically at the Religion and Public Life Department where I study, who released their own statement saying, "Well, if you begin the story on October 7th, and not the story of the Nakba, not the story of the illegal displacement of Palestinians, you only get one side of the story." We then had an Israeli student

who was told by her professor to leave the classroom because her nationality made others uncomfortable. We then had a Jewish undergrad who was spat on for wearing a kippah. We then had a Jewish freshman who had her mezuzah torn down from her dorm entrance. We then had a physical assault at Harvard Business School. In my case, there was a Harvard employee

who vandalized all of my hostage posters, writing on Kfir Bibas, his head is still on, where's the evidence? A Harvard employee? A Harvard employee, writing on Noah Arghamani that Jews are best friends with Jeffrey Epstein. He then challenged me to debate him in a secluded underpass as to whether Jews orchestrated 9-11 or not, and then posted a video taunting me with a machete saying he wants to fight and he has a plan to come after me and he wants more than blood. I emailed Harvard,

I sent them phone calls asking, inquiring about this individual's employment status. To this day, they've never once responded to me. It is inconceivable that any other minority group would be treated with the disdain, the disregard, and the contempt that Harvard has historically, consistently, and routinely treated its Jewish student population. And I encourage all of your listeners, our lawsuit is publicly available. They can read it. And they can see the shocking,

I brought you on the podcast to break it down for us. Right. They can see, and I'm happy to go into further detail. But we can add it in the podcast notes. Perfect. They can see the normalization, the acceptance, and yeah, the celebration of anti-Semitism that had been going on for years at Harvard University. So you're accusing Harvard of violating Jewish students' civil rights? Yes. And if you win the lawsuit, what does that mean? What are the operative results of that?

Sure. So there's a pragmatic approach, the operative results, and then there's sort of the court of public opinion. And I think when it comes to the court of public opinion, I think we're kind of already winning. So I look at the fact that Harvard, and this is sort of true with most Ivy Leagues in the United States today, Harvard has had a 17% drop in early applications. They've had a 5% drop in applications overall. They've had hundreds of millions of dollars in donations previously.

being withheld. Now with President Trump, there is a real serious effort to tax university endowments, to withhold federal funds, to deport foreign students who violated federal law. So the American people have repudiated the Ivy League values. They've repudiated this sense of elitism. And I think that's a really good thing. They've seen the intellectual bankruptcy. They've seen the moral hypocrisy. And they're naturally gravitating. They're naturally migrating to different institutions. But the lawsuit itself, you win and what, they give you a big check? What

So the lawsuit itself... Harvard has to change something? Yeah, so the lawsuit itself is asking for very pragmatic and reasonable changes. So number one, we want them to enforce their code of conduct, which...

was already on the books. We're not asking for special treatment under the law. We're asking for equal treatment under the law. So, for example, if you have two students... There's a constitutional amendment that's supposed to provide for that. Right, exactly. If you have two students who are caught on video physically accosting a Jewish student at Harvard Business School, those two students are obviously not only in violation of Harvard internal policy, but they're obviously in violation of federal law. It's a hate crime. Those two students need to be disciplined immediately.

If you have Jewish... Yeah, by the way, when I was in, I went to Harvard in September, speaking to Jewish students there, and I said, why is there not enforcement of the university's own rules? I was shocked to discover that it's because the university's own disciplinary mechanisms have been infiltrated by the pro-Palestinian faculty who then want to let the agitators off the hook because they agree with their agenda. Yeah, absolutely. That's what's happening? Absolutely.

I mean, you call it the tent of thought. I call it the Harvard Hamas homeless shelter, but we're all talking about the same thing. The Harvard Hamas homeless shelter. And at the Harvard Hamas homeless shelter, you had professors... I love it. Still sticking with tent of thought. You had professors in full regalia who were out cheering on the encampment leaders, who were out there pitching tents with their students. So yes, it has 100% been hijacked by these radical professors who teach this political indoctrination into the classroom, who told the university president that...

If you suspend, if you discipline, if you do not allow to walk at graduation, certain encampment leaders, these are encampment leaders who violated all time, place, and manner restrictions, who followed me on my way to class, who called for an intifada. If you do that, then we as the faculty will revolt in some way or the other. So these universities have capitulated, have acquiesced to the violent mob because they're scared of their own faculty. They're scared of their own students.

And to me, this is not just a Jewish issue. It's not just an issue of Israel and Zionism. Obviously, Israel and Zionism, the Jewish people, are the canary in the coal mine. But when you have students who have quite literally stated that their sole goal, this is the Columbia University Apartheid Divestment Coalition, their sole goal is the eradication of Western civilization. When you have Harvard students in their protests saying, down with the American capitalist system, these are serious, serious problems.

And I remember, I remember this so clearly, two, three days after October 7th, having a serious discussion in a Harvard classroom with classmates of mine as to whether the nails lodged in the Jewish women on October 7th by Hamas constituted rape or not.

I was of the position, it obviously does. And my progressive, elitist, educated friends, those who marched with the Women's March in 2017, those who took knees for Black Lives Matter, who very much are for reproductive freedoms in the United States, they were of the position of, no, it doesn't.

And Harvard purports to train the next generation of American leaders. By and large, they're kind of right. It's not an exaggeration at all to state, statistically speaking, I probably sat in a room with a future congressman, senator, even president. If these are America's future leaders, then America is in a very dangerous inflection point. Wow, that is such an important point. Whenever I speak to students and I'm trying to rev them up to use their voices and be more active, I say, there's a good chance you're in a classroom now with a future president.

Senate staffer, senator, president of the United States. And if these hate marches, these hate parades make their way all the way into the hallways of power, then we're in very big trouble. So you're trying to tackle this now with this lawsuit against Harvard. You've also become very active in the political space. You campaigned prominently for President Trump in this election.

Don't hold it against me. But no, no, no, no. I'm not at all what I will hold against you. You did vote for Bernie Sanders. Right. That you can hold against me. When was the last time you voted for Bernie Sanders? 2020. I voted for him against Biden in the primary. Not only that. Now, 2020, Bernie Sanders was already...

It was already very clear that Bernie Sanders was a very hostile voice to Israel. And so I'm wondering, why are you still voting for Bernie Sanders in 2020 when it's clear how antagonistic he is towards the Jewish state? So I always make the approach that President Ronald Reagan said it the best. I did not abandon the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party abandoned me.

When it comes to Bernie Sanders in particular, I always disagreed with his foreign policy. I always disagreed with his stance on Israel in particular. I always disagreed with his welcoming and then what later turned into his obvious support of the BDS movement. However, as a young American Jew, my attitudes towards Israel was Israel is a strong, independent Western country. And in fact, you even hear this from hardline sessioners.

in Israel. We shouldn't even accept foreign aid because we should be self-reliant. We should be producing our own ammunition. It's got nothing to do with settlers. So point B, right, that's true. It's not just a settler ideology, but the ideology is when we are reliant on foreign funding, when we are reliant on the United States, it does not bode well for Israel's long-term sustainability. You saw what happened when President Biden threatened that if we go into Rafah, where hostages were later found, he would withhold money.

Weapons the U.S. has used routinely in fighting counterterrorism, those 2,000-pound bombs. And there's an understanding in Israel that we do need our strategic independence. Right. So I always disagreed with that approach.

My sort of reconciliation or rationale was that it was not, it wasn't an issue because Israel is a strong Western independent country. And why would Bernie Sanders' approach to BDS, why would his approach to foreign policy actually matter? And then like a significant amount of American Jews, what happens? October 7th.

And you realize for the very first time, I'm a young person. I was not alive during the first Intifada. I just turned 25. You're a baby. I was four years old during the second Intifada. I don't know Israel as an existential issue. I don't know Israel where its legitimacy and its survival is at stake. I just don't know that. I know Israel because...

I studied there in Yeshiva for two years. I have grandparents here. I go to vacation here over Passover. And then all of a sudden, October 7th hits, and you realize for the very first time that actually, no, Israel is an existential issue. Israel is a country where its legitimacy is at stake here. And like many American Jews, my politics sort of began to evolve, and I realized that my prioritization was backward.

And foreign policy does matter. Anti-Semitism on college campuses does matter. And I started speaking out pretty vocally about it, trying to get my own party, the Democratic Party, trying to get progressive ideologues who I support, tried getting them to understand how important this issue was, tried saying, give us a reason to vote for you. I want to continue to vote for the Democratic Party. Give us that reason. And not only did they refuse to give us that reason, but they continuously sided with our ideological adversaries.

Many American Jews will support Israel because of the strong cultural, emotional links with the community here out of an understanding of the importance of Israel for the survival of the Jewish people at large. But obviously the question of what happens on campuses and the intellectual climate matters for Israel. You say it's existential for the state of Israel. Why do you think it matters to American Jews? Why should American Jews be agitated?

by how their government and their country treats Israel instead of saying, as many I think still do, well, that's a faraway country. I have nothing to do with. They can continue saying whatever they want about Israel. It's got nothing to do with me as an American Jew. I have nothing to do with Israel. Are they right? They're not right. They're not right at all. And first, I want to validate that question. And

Thank you. I feel validated. Yeah, no problem. That's how Harvard professors talk, by the way. I just want to validate your emotions first. But it is true. We can hold space for it. Exactly. One of the dirty secrets at Harvard, at Columbia, at Penn, at NYU was a significant amount of these protesters who were calling for the Intifada, who were donning keffiyehs on October 7th, who were saying glory to the resistance. A lot of these people were Jewish. A lot of them.

And there needs to be an understanding, not just within the Jewish community, but within the American community. There is a significant problem of this radicalization, and it does not discriminate based on religion or class or race or any of that. It's not a small fringe problem? Unfortunately not. I wish it were, but it isn't. What's driving it?

What drives Jews in America, not to say I'm sitting out this fight, but to say I'm going to prove I'm more pro-Palestinian than the Palestinians themselves and be the most hostile anti-Israel. Why do they do it? So when I'm not suing Harvard, I actually study the Holocaust. That's my academic interest. That's my really own specialty. Oh, okay. That's what you do for fun. Yes, yes. That's why I'm very optimistic all the time. And there was something called the Association of National German Jewry.

This phenomenon isn't...

It's not new. This is just its contemporary manifestation. The contemporary manifestation of the Erev Rav, of the mixed multitude, are those on college campuses today who say, as a Jew, globalize the Intifada. Okay, I can understand that there is a thread that goes through Jewish history that says that in every generation there have been Jews who have plumped with our

Oppressors, enemies, persecutors, call them what you will. But help me understand the American Jewish context. Where is this problem coming from in the American Jewish context? Because I want to know how we fight it. I would argue...

It's ultimately a lack of education. If you look at these Jews who are protesting for the Intifada, who are saying glory to the Intifada. The ones who write the Hebrew on the Pesach plate backwards and celebrate Hanukkah with a kwanzaa. Exactly. But why does that keep happening? Why is it so easy to poke fun at groups like Jewish Voices for Peace or If Not Now? Because they have a stunning lack of education. If you really want to combat hate, if you really want to stop anti-Semitism, then the American Jewish community should invest heavily

heavily in education, making sure that there is not a single American Jew today who is sending their kids to a public school because they can't afford a Jewish education. Do you not think that actually we're being patronizing and dismissive of the problem by saying it's a lack of education? My impression is that some of the most vocal anti-Israel Jews are actually perfectly literate in their Jewish history. They just take entirely different lessons. And maybe it's because they've reduced Judaism to...

some amorphous social justice thing because they disagree. Not that the Jewish people should have a state, that we are a people. They don't think that there are links of peoplehood that bond you and America and us in Israel. They're perfectly literate. They know their history. They've drawn different conclusions.

I'll put it this way. Simone Zimmerman is the young Jewish American who's the founder of If Not Now. She produced a film called Israelism, which basically argues that American Jews have been indoctrinated. Yes, praised by Francesca Albanese. Right, of course. And of course, it's, by the way, it was played at Harvard numerous times. My dean showed up. Almost all of the department heads showed up and praised this glorious revolutionary film. It's not exactly...

eye-opening to state that we American Jews don't agree with Israel anymore. That's sort of the MO of most Jews on college campuses these days. It's not interesting anymore. So I have respectfully but publicly issued a challenge to her.

Debate me. Anytime, anywhere, any venue, any moderator, let's talk about our differences. You, Simone Zimmerman, are obviously in the public spotlight. You have a cause. You seriously believe that the Jewish future is one outside of Israel. I'm somewhat in the spotlight, not nearly to the same extent, but I believe very different conclusions. Let's have a debate and air this out. She's never once responded.

Well, Simon Zimmerman, if you're listening to this episode of State of a Nation, the invitation to debate Shabbos is still open, and I'll extend an invitation to come on the podcast as well. Why not? Anytime, anywhere. I have never been less impressed by a group of ideas and a compilation of peoples than the anti-Zionist Jewish movement. But help me understand what is driving it. Help me understand the psychological pressures that are driving young Jews in American campuses to say that they want to express themselves through radical politics and

That calls to tear Israel down. Well, if you want to talk about psychological pressure, if you want to talk about social uniformity, then yes, there obviously is a pressurizing element within college campuses to fit in. There are obvious elements that are dictating what is considered socially acceptable or not. And it is passe, or let me rephrase it, it is popular. It is the norm.

to put on your keffiyeh i mean you know a friend of mine charlie kovett from harvard university he speaks very openly about this phenomenon at harvard of keffiyeh thursday when i told him we should challenge it with talis tuesday talis tuesday i love it hear more about this from the special episode of state of a nation we were on a panel together in palo alto at the z3 conference repackaged it as a podcast anyone enjoying this you can watch that back episode yeah charlie is a

Much better spokesman than I, but he makes this great point. No, it's Entrepreneurship Wednesday, not Talent Tuesday. There you go. But he makes this great point that they offer sloganeering. They offer physical or external attachments to an ideology. And

It's very easy to simply put on a keffiyeh. It's very easy to simply just put on a watermelon sticker on your laptop. You don't have to do much. To simply state Free Palestine on your social media. It's very easy to put on laptop stickers. Right. To simply post on your social media Free Palestine, it will engage you with a much larger community. And I would imagine that if you're an American Jew with not a strong sense of belonging, not with a strong sense of Jewish education, you would probably be swept up in this ideology as well.

which is why I really do believe belonging. It's not that they lack in my opinion. It's not that they lack facts. It's that they lack a sense that the Jewish people are a people. And when you've,

successfully reduced... This is part of American Jewry's survival strategy. Successfully reduced Judaism to just a religion. Hey, we're just like everyone else. We just have a different religion. And then you decide that even religion isn't something you want anymore because God is dead. You're not left with the sense that

Jews in Israel and Jews in America are part of the same transnational people. They say, we just don't even share the same cultural space. We don't share any terms of reference. We barely share a history and we don't really share a collective future together. And this disturbs me greatly because I think that

You say that part of what is driving American Jews against Israel is the pressure to fit in. And that means that the more we allow the lies about Israel to go unchallenged, the greater the psychological pressure on American Jews to say, either I stick my head above the parapet and I fight, and that's really scary to do, or I blend into the scenery or show violence.

to show my loyalty, I become even more anti-Israel because that's my way of surviving as American Jewry. And that's why I've been trying to argue that Israel advocacy is a Jewish safety issue in the United States because otherwise you're going to be tainted by association with whatever they're accusing Israel of doing. Now, Shabbos, Israel has traditionally, and American Jewry,

tried to keep Israel as a bipartisan issue. We have good relations with the Democrats. We have good relations with the Republicans. We as a community don't pick sides. We think it's important that both sides support the Jewish community, support Israel. Now Israel and apparently anti-Semitism on campus becoming increasingly a partisan issue. What isn't becoming a partisan issue in the US? And I wonder, first of all, do you think it's reversible? Can we go back to a world in which

in which Israel and the Jewish community are bipartisan issues? I certainly hope so. The fact is, a month ago, more than 70 Democratic congressmen signed a letter to the Biden administration asking him to withhold...

arms shipments to Israel, having an arms embargo. Not a single Republican signed on to that. And I'm a registered Democrat. I'm, as you said, I'm a progressive who voted for Bernie Sanders. I can compare my progressive credentials any day of the week. But the unfortunate reality is the Democratic Party has been hijacked, just like universities and institutions of higher learning have been hijacked.

and have capitulated to the most radical loud minority of their base. So in terms of is this reversible, I'll put it this way. Richie Torres, who I believe is a mutual friend, I hope and pray... And another previous podcast guest. There you go. If anyone wants to go through the back catalog. I hope and pray that he is the future of the Democratic Party.

Party. I hope and pray that he runs for governor of New York, which he's obviously toying with. And eventually he'll make his way to the presidency. And if he can be the model of what it means to be a progressive, openly gay man, and someone who is unabashedly pro-Israel, then I would 100% be the first one to say, I finally have a place back in the Democratic Party. But it is crucial for the survival of the Jewish state that yes, it is a bipartisan issue. And

The reality is, though, I shouldn't say and, but the reality is, though, at the moment, it is not. And I would ask the American Jewish community, regardless of your reservations or trepidations towards President Trump and the Trump administration, this is someone who is assembling the most pro-Israel administration, arguably, in American history, and we should 100% support his decisions as it pertains to Israel because they will have positive effects, not just for the Jewish state, but for the region at large. You're saying it is essential that Israel remain a bipartisan issue, yes? 100%.

You're saying you're hopeful that it can go back to being a bipartisan issue, correct? Yes. Do you think that plumping for Trump is helping it go back to being a bipartisan issue, or do you think you're aggravating the partisan divide? I think it 100% can create a bipartisan partnership once again. Help me understand. Because why am I a surrogate for the Trump campaign? Why am I someone who voted for President Trump and agreed to speak at the Republican convention? Because even though I'm a progressive, even though I've only voted for Democrats, the Democratic Party have so alienated American Jewry that we had to do this.

And the moment you can create legislative change, the moment you can make this a priority once again, we will happily support this party once again.

the fact that American Jewry has proven itself to be an electoral force to be reckoned with, it is not a force anymore that can be taken for granted, which the Democratic Party consistently and historically has done, then the Democrats will be forced to re-engage with the Jewish community. They will be forced to take pro-Israel positions once again. And if they don't, then we as the American Jewish community will simply not support you anymore. It is a very good thing. I've also heard that analysis saying that before the previous election, that if the Republicans, if the Jews...

don't swing for Trump as a community and the Republicans draw the conclusion that the Jews are electorally irrelevant for California, Florida and New York. They're therefore electorally irrelevant nationally at all and therefore the Republicans don't need them and the Democrats don't need them

and then you're on your own. Exactly. And by the way, it's not even just with electoral American politics. It's also true of institutions of higher learning. If you really want to change Harvard and Yale and Columbia, stop going. Tell them that our values are one whereby we cannot associate ourselves with anti-American and anti-Semitic universities. And you know what happens the moment we Jews take our talents and our money and our kids elsewhere? Immediately, you will start seeing serious and blatant structural reforms. So you're saying it is essentially...

Peace through strength. 100%. That instead of saying, well, actually, let's stay in the party. Let's try to handle things nicely behind the scenes. Actually show that you have power to be reckoned with and that will force real change. As I've said from day one, Harvard needs Jews. Jews don't need Harvard. And Harvard is beginning to realize that. The Democratic Party is beginning to realize that. And that will create sustainable and transformable change. 100%. Do you think that this...

confrontational style, that sort of throwing your weight around is working? And I ask because if anti-Semitism is a question of people not liking the Jews, do you think that your confrontational style is making Jews more likable?

That's an interesting question. I'll put it this way. Jonathan Greenblatt, who's the head of the ADL, he spoke at the Knesset yesterday, and he said that we as an organization... Another former guest on this podcast. Wow, you're killing it with all the guests. We're getting everyone. He has said we as an organization have not been able to quell this inferno of anti-Semitism. If the head of the ADL, which is really the...

prominent, preeminent organization that is meant to combat anti-Semitism is conceding and acknowledging that we need new ideas. We need a different approach. Then who better than young American Jews who are experiencing the worst, the brunt of anti-Semitism? Who better than those young American Jews to say this is what the approach should be? And I'm not interested, honestly, I am not interested as to whether people like Jews, whether people think we have horns, whether people think we control the banks,

I am interested as to whether they act on those beliefs or not. You can be anti-Semitic, you can be racist, you can be homophobic, you can be sexist. These are not good ideologies. I abhor them, I detest them, I condemn them, but they're ideologies. We live as part of Western civilization with a social contract that people are free to think what they would like. However, we also live in a society with laws, with a basis, a basis in security and protection.

And the moment you say, I'm an anti-Semite, and therefore I am entitled to block the entrance of a synagogue, I'm therefore entitled to call for Jews to get off my campus, to throw rocks through the synagogue, then I care about your anti-Semitism. You are never going to dictate or legislate your way out of an ideology. What you can do is enforce the law, create policies,

That will deter anti-Semitism. I am a big advocate of Holocaust education. It's what I study. It's what I do. I also concede that we don't need more Holocaust museums. They're good. People should go there. They are critical. But that's not how you defeat anti-Semitism. Dara Horn makes that point. Was she a guest?

Okay. Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. But she has to be. So she will be. She will be. So she gets a shout out. But her book, People Love Dead Jews, is always behind me on my shelf when I'm giving interviews. It's one of the subliminal messages. What is the crux of her argument? She points to a fascinating phenomenon that when it comes to anti-Semitism, the American Jewish community's approach, especially the legacy organizations, is let's take them to a Holocaust museum.

Let's take him to meet some kids affected by anti-Semitism. You can walk through every single Yad Vashem in the world, and you will only come with a perspective of Jews are victims. That's sad.

you will not learn anything about Jewish history, Jewish culture, Jewish peoplehood. It's definitely no way to build an identity and pride in a millennia-long, globe-spanning, civilizational accomplishment of Judaism. That's why I think the birthright model is actually pretty positive. Take them to Israel. Make them see the flourishment of Jewish life. Yeah, bring them to Israel. Get them to meet hot soldiers. Right, exactly, exactly. Show them the multicultural, multi-ethnic, diverse country that the Jewish people have not only built, but built it within five years.

of gas chambers. That is a remarkable testament to the Jewish story and to the Jewish legacy. Stop taking them to... There you go. Stop taking them to Poland. Stop taking them to Holocaust museums. And again, I'm a proponent of Holocaust education and of going to Poland, but that is not how you defeat anti-Semitism. By birthright trips, you're talking about taking Jewish students there.

and non-Jewish students. On other... No, there's definitely no replacement for student exchanges and bringing delegations. But I just want to understand your approach to how you see your role, at least, in the network of fighting anti-Semitism. You're not trying to reduce hatred. You're not trying to reduce prejudice. You're trying to reduce the ability to act on that prejudice? I would say so. Okay, you were saying that the legacy Jewish organizations... You feel let down by the legacy organizations? I'm going to give you a very political answer.

I got into trouble last month because I posted on my Twitter that I had very informally asked about 100 leading Jewish activists, Jewish students in the United States, what are some of the organizations that you felt have been helpful? And my only criteria was if two students out of the 115 I asked, if two students agree on an organization, the organization will be put on this list in my head. And...

eventually the list in my head became an actual tweet and I listed the organizations and the onslaught of, of vitriol of hate that I received, uh, against me. Number one, this wasn't my list, but number two, an incredible amount of, of prominent Jewish individuals in the United States felt almost offended. Why wasn't this organization on the list? What about that great work that they do? I am not out to get the Jewish nonprofit world. I'm not, uh,

creating a persona whereby it's me versus them. Absolutely not. I want every Jewish organization to succeed because we are all in this together. Every pro-Israel, pro-Jewish organization. I leave out JVP because it's not really a Jewish organization. Exactly. I said Jewish organization. Every pro-Israel, pro-American, pro-Jewish, NGO, nonprofit, I want them to succeed.

It is obviously the case, though. Does it help to pick fights with Hillel International online, though? I'd like to think what I was doing was not... Like, how are we going to fight anti-Semitism if we're dunking on the people who are on the same side? I don't think that what I'm doing is creating fights with Hillel International. It is creating positive, constructive criticism.

Because in order for us to get through this very difficult moment, we have to be intellectually honest and we have to be honest with our policies and our tactics that are working and are not working. Yeah, by the way, one of the ideas that I've heard from American Jewry that I really like is just as...

in Israel, we need a state commission of inquiry into the disaster of October 7th. American Jewry needs its own civil commission of inquiry into how everyone was suddenly horrified by the outburst of anti-Semitism and this was allowed to erupt on October 8th. 100%? Shabbos, you said earlier, you know, I think it's time for the young, listen to young American Jews and let them take the lead. I want to bring you the voice of another young American Jew, actually a critic of yours, and see what you say about this.

A colleague of yours from Harvard, Matthew Nikritz, how do I pronounce his name, wrote recently in the Crimson, Harvard's student newspaper, that he shares your view regarding what I call the tentifada, you call the Harvard homeless shelter. He writes this about you, and I want to get your reaction to it.

He says, instead of working to break down barriers to talk about these issues in what should be a thoughtful, constructive academic environment, Kestenbaum, like many of the people he disavows, has quite literally fought hate with hate.

It is for this reason that as I reflect on a complex and difficult school year, Shabbos is one of the people towards whom I feel the most anger and frustration. He goes on, I care that his actions made our campus a more hostile environment and that he is now wielding a claim to the Jewish experience at Harvard for political gain.

Your response. Sure. So the assertion that what I'm doing is for political gain, I would argue, is ludicrous simply because I did it because...

I was experiencing anti-Semitism. If the argument is you should not call out anti-Semitism because you might be criticized in the future for political gain, I mean, that's just a silly argument. Are you angling for a position with the Trump administration? Now I am, because I was put into a position whereby I can speak for the betterment of the American Jewish community. What position? I would like to do a position whereby I can speak on behalf, excuse me, not speak on behalf of, but I can speak...

and create legislative change for the betterment of American Jewry, whether that means the White House Jewish liaison, whether it means some position in the State Department. I've been put in a position whereby I can help. And if I can help, I'd love to do it. But that wasn't my goal. And how are those talks going?

I don't want to speculate on those things, but as I've told the Trump administration, if I can be of service to them, and if I, more importantly, can be of service to the American Jewish community, I'd love to do it. I don't want to speculate. What a political answer. Anyway, back to Mr. Kukri. One of the first things I did after...

October 7th, was I joined an organization that's now called the Institute for Multipartisan Education, I believe. And we started, I shouldn't say we, a talented friend of mine named Shira started a chat helpline. It was a nonpartisan helpline where people can anonymously pose their questions pertaining to Israel-Palestine. And we would answer those questions in a nonpartisan, nonaggressive way just for the purpose of education. I started working with a multitude of student organizations on campus to try to quell anti-Semitism. I

initially worked with DEI. I worked with those behind the scenes. And you went to the Harvard Divinity School, right? Yep. So you know that the ideology behind DEI is, of course, deism. Yep.

So I worked within the school framework. I worked with people from across political divides. The only time I stopped doing that was when I realized none of those things were going to work. If I had thought that working with DEI would be helpful, if I had thought that not calling out Harvard would be helpful, if I had thought that not calling out anti-Semitic students would be helpful, I would have continued to do all of those things.

But the reality is none of those things were helpful. You know what is helpful? Calling out anti-Semites, filing lawsuits, going on national media and talking about individuals who should be held accountable. And if people want to criticize me for that, then it is an honor to be criticized. I am happy to continue to receive the death threats and the public criticism that I have received for speaking on behalf of the American Jewish community. It is an honor every single day that I can get texts and emails and phone calls

from people who've said, we want you to amplify this story of antisemitism on my campus, or what can I do about this professor? I like the fact that I can be in a position of help, and I will continue to be in that position. I will continue to speak out and speak against antisemites and antisemitism. If people want to criticize me for that, then all I would say is, what are you doing to help?

Well, it's good to be criticized. It means you're doing something. People pay attention. You've been very critical of the outgoing Biden administration about its response to campus anti-Semitism, Kamala Harris campaign not meeting you or the Jewish student activists. Not me. Not me. They don't have to meet with me. This is not about me. Kamala Harris did not meet with a single Jewish student since October 7th, and I had been vocal from day one. Forget about me. I don't want to be part of the meeting. I don't want to hear from her. She should meet with Jewish students.

She should meet with those on the forefront against anti-Semitism. Those who have been told. You tried to get a meeting? 100%. But not for me. I tried getting meetings for Jewish students. Never received a response. Never even received a response. Never received a response. Not only that, we went to the Democratic National Convention. We said, why are the Republicans the only one who are amplifying anti-Semitism? You should have a Jewish student speak. Not me. Someone else. Amplifying the problem of anti-Semitism. Correct. Have a Jewish student speak.

They wouldn't respond. So again, if they are not going to take our concerns seriously, then we are simply not going to support them. And I'm looking now at a tweet of yours expressing outrage that the Biden administration has not done a number of a list of things, including deporting foreign students who violated

American law, withholding federal funds from anti-Semitic universities, etc., etc. Whether or not you do take a position with the White House and the Trump administration, how confident are you that the Trump administration will

enact these steps? Incredibly confident. I know that because not only have I had conversations with the individuals who are best in a position to do those things, but there is a serious and real commitment to crack down on DEI, to deport the foreign students who violated American law, to withhold federal funds, to tax the university endowments.

And again, it is a pretty damn shame that the Biden administration can literally do all of those things right now and are refusing to do it. Just this week, Rutgers University reached an understanding with the Department of Education.

That they would simply rededicate themselves to communicating internal policies pertaining to anti-Semitism. This is a university that has had more than 400 complaints since October 7th pertaining to anti-Semitism on its campus, including the identification of Jewish students with anti-Semitic students stating this is where they live and someone should kill them.

And the Biden administration reached an understanding with the university that they would do better to re-communicate their policies. Whether you are a Democrat or a Republican, that is outrageous. That is inexcusable. This should not be a partisan issue. But unfortunately, my party, the Democratic Party, has made it a partisan issue by not caring about the issue. I remember so clearly at Columbia, at Harvard, to have congressmen and women like Ayanna Pressley, like Jamal Bowman, like AOC come to Columbia, who I campaigned for.

Jamal Bowman, who came to Columbia, Ayanna Pressley, who came to Harvard, said to the encampment leaders, keep going. We support you. Tried working with the Harvard administration to make sure that none of them would be penalized. What a slap in the face to Jewish students. What a slap in the face to the idea of rule of law and of equal treatment and

And that perversion of justice... Who on the Democratic side do you think is doing a good job on anti-Semitism? John Fetterman, Kathy Manning, Richie Torres. Joe Biden initially was doing quite well, and then he capitulated. He acquiesced to the dumbest and most radical elements within our party. But there are a tremendous amount of Democratic lawmakers who are doing the good thing, who are doing the right thing. But unfortunately, it's few and far between. And if you look...

It's night and day between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. The Republican Party went out of its way to go to Columbia University, not to meet with encampment leaders, but to say this is inexcusable, this is outrageous, and we are going to hold this university accountable. We are going to enforce the rule of law.

And we became so enamored with people like Mike Johnson, so enamored with people like Elise Stefanik of Virginia Fox, because they were saying things that on paper make sense, but we were living in a society post-truth. We were living in a society and in a culture and in a college campus whereby the basic rule of law, whereby treating people with proper dignity was being discarded. I understand your disappointment with the Democratic Party. I want to ask whether you have any misgivings about swinging out so vocally for the Republican Party.

It is regrettable that I had to do it because I didn't want to. Why? Because I'm a Democrat. In what sense are you a Democrat? Democrats don't campaign for Trump. This Democrat did. And by the way, a significant amount of Jewish Democrats and Democrats broadly speaking voted for President Trump. What made it...

difficult for you to... I had never in my life voted for a Republican. I'm someone who believes in aggressive policies. Chavez, you're 25. You haven't been voting for that long. Well, I don't just vote in presidential elections on like half of Americans. I vote in municipal elections and the local elections. I vote. What was it about the Republican Party that made you say, actually, I don't want to vote for this thing?

Well, I disagree with certain Republican policies, and I agree with many Democratic policies. I believe in securing reproductive choices for women. I believe in aggressive policies to combat climate change. I believe in a $15 minimum wage. But at the end of the day, we can't talk about these issues if we're dead. We can't talk about these issues if there are seven, now six, American hostages in Gaza. We can't talk about those issues. But what gives you misgivings about supporting the Republican Party so vocally? Is it the questions of minimum wage and abortion rights or...

Or is it certain less friendly voices towards Israel and the Jews in that party, too? There is certainly an element within the far right fringes of the Republican Party. The irony is Trump is so philo-Semitic. This is someone who not only supports the state of Israel, but he has Jewish grandchildren, for God's sake. He so supports the Jewish people. So does President Biden. He so supports, not halachically, but that's a conversation for another time. Well, let's not get into that.

So this is someone who so supports the Jewish state, who so supports the Jewish people. On October 7th, 2024, he came. I was with him. I was with Ben Shapiro, a family of the hostage, with an Auschwitz survivor. He came to the OEL of the Lubavitcher Rebbe to listen to our concerns.

to hear the plight of a hostage families to tell the family of the Don Alexander that oh you have your brother's eyes what a handsome man we're gonna we're gonna bring him back he's in our thoughts and prayers we invited Kamala Harris to do the same thing she was invited to come to the O'Hill of the Lubavitch Rebbe and pray for the American hostages and she said no I mean do I need to make more of a case than that if our concerns are not even being met with a response

then why would we continue to support that party? Trump, because of his philo-Semitism, because of his love and appreciation for the Jewish people, he is keeping the far right and the far left anti-Semitic factions at bay. I truly and honestly believe that. And yet there is still that faction that has voted against pro-Israel legislation as well as against adopting the

IRA definition of anti-Semitism against Holocaust education legislation. What do you think that the GOP, the Republican Party, should do about this faction that you feel so uneasy about?

whether it's the far right or the far left faction anyone who votes against for example the international hot costs remembrance alliance definition anti-semitism who votes against the anti-semitism awareness act who says that arneman shipments to israel should be blockaded we should have an arms embargo whether you are a republican a democrat independent a centrist those people should be repudiated those people have no place in normative electoral american politics i really do believe that and i will continue to call out far-right anti-semitism and far-left anti-semitism i think it is a very good thing for example

that President Trump made it clear that someone like Laura Loomer had no role in his campaign, no role on his plane, no role in his administration. That is a very, very good thing because she is a far-right activist. It is a very good thing that Joe Biden or Kamala Harris, had they have done this, said to the squad, to those who are telling the encampment leaders, we got your back, that those people have no role in normative politics. Unfortunately, the Democratic Party has yet to do that. Fortunately, the Republican Party hasn't.

has done that. People like Thomas Massey, the Republican congressman in Kentucky, I abhor his politics. I think he is dangerous not only to Israel and the Jewish American community, but to his own constituents, to the American people. This is a far-right ideologue, and I am happy to continue to call out far-right and far-left anti-Semitism. I am not a partisan political hack.

I'm just not. I'm someone who cares about the interest of the American Jewish community. And to me, what would amplify and elevate our issues, what would alleviate our concerns, would be voting for President Trump. I'm glad I did. I'm glad I was able to speak at campaign events. And I'm glad that a continuing share of the American Jewish community have continued to vote for the Republican Party. Could we yet see you running for electoral office as a Democrat? There would have to be a lot of...

reform and change before I would even begin that consideration. But if you're successful in the strategy of saying, let's throw around our electoral power in order to force political change within the Democratic Party, if you're successful, then you would migrate back to the Democratic Party. In theory, I'll put it this way. My sole purpose for the next four years, my sole goal is working with the Trump administration in any way, working with the American government in any way to alleviate the concerns of the American Jewish community, of making the live,

of Jewish students on college campuses better, where they don't have to fear going to class, where they don't have to fear that they will be stigmatized, they will be bullied, they will be followed and intimidated and harassed for their religious ideology. That will be my sole focus, making sure that those concerns are heard and are being addressed. Okay, let the record state no denial about the intentions to run for electoral office one day.

I'll run for office if you run for office. Oh, no, God, no. My response is the Jewish people have suffered enough. Shabbos Kestum. This has been a fascinating episode. And for those who have been listening on half X speed in order to hear you at human speed, it will be by far the longest episode we've ever produced. Shabbos, how can people follow you and your work? They could follow me on Twitter and on Instagram. Just type in my name, Shabbos Kestum. Fantastic. Thank you for coming on. Thank you.

And that brings us to the end of today's episode of State of a Nation with Shabbos Kestenbaum. As promised, if you want to read his lawsuit against Harvard alleging violations of the Civil Rights Act, we have included that in the podcast notes for those who want to delve in deeper. As always, if you enjoy these podcasts, then you have to subscribe. If you came across this by accident on YouTube, Apple Podcasts,

or Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Give us a like, share the social media accounts with your friends, family, and anyone you think will be enlightened and entertained to learn more with us behind the scenes and beyond the headlines and between the lines. I'm Elon Levy. Thanks for joining.