Inside Gaza | Special Forces Soldier Reveals Realities of Modern Warfare
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They think that Israeli soldiers are deliberately trying to harm Palestinian civilians. They think it's deliberate. If we wanted to harm them, the war wouldn't never go for 14 months. It will go for a day at the most. Hello and welcome to State of a Nation. I'm Elon Levy. The war Israel is fighting in Gaza is in the most fiendishly difficult urban battlefield that any army has ever seen. Because Hamas rigged the battlefield.

Hamas rigged the battlefield to try to make it impossible for Israeli soldiers to exercise the principles of precision, of proportionality, of distinction by deliberately embedding themselves among civilians, knowing that the world will blame Israel when civilians get hurt.

But what is it like to be an Israeli soldier on the ground in Gaza knowing that threats can come not only from 360 degrees around you but from above, from below, from anywhere? That's why I wanted to bring on Stav Cohen on the podcast. Stav is an Israeli reservist. He was

sprung into action on October 7th in his Special Forces Unit to try to defend the communities in the south and defend us from Hamas's invasion. He has been in and out of reserves for most of the past year, over a year. Together we sit down for a discussion about what really happens inside Gaza, what the battlefield is with which Hamas has confronted soldiers and

and how they deal with the impossible dilemmas presented by the Hamas terrorist regime on the ground. Welcome to

to State of a Nation. Stav Cohen, welcome to State of a Nation. Thank you. It's great to be here. You are a special forces reservist and this is a special episode because you are the first guest.

in the new set that we have here at Mindspace LaGuardia Tel Aviv. And if you notice something a little bit different in the audio for those following us on the audio platforms, I advise you go into YouTube, give us a like, subscribe. We've changed the set here because we want to focus on the voices that we bring on the podcast. We want to bring guests who have special stories, life experiences that will educate us.

That's why we've moved to this new podcast set, but we'll be speaking more closely into the microphones and why I'm glad to have you here to hear your experiences because, Stav, many of the guests we've had here are familiar faces, recognizable names, and you are just a regular schmoe.

But in Israel, being a regular Shmo means being a lawyer by day and a terrorist hunter by night. So tell me, who are you? Well, first of all, my mom says that I'm special anyway. I'm 29 years old, just like you said, special forces reservist for the past 11 years now. During the day, I'm doing my internship in law, studied law.

and I run two NGOs. First one is supporting Holocaust survivor, second one is supporting people with autism. Between rounds of reserves, what I'm trying to do is go abroad, and thanks to good people like you, to make the authentic voice of the soldiers from the battlefield heard.

That's what I'm trying to do. That's basically who I am. And that's really important because we get so much criticism internationally about the supposed alleged behavior of Israeli soldiers. And that's why I really want to hear from you what you saw in Gaza, what you experienced as a reservist, how you're experiencing the schizophrenic leap between

Being a trainee lawyer by day and then in reserves jumping in and fighting Hamas terrorists. But first of all, tell me about your background. Who are you? Where do you come from? Well, I come from a small village in the center of Israel, about 30 minutes south to Tel Aviv. The name of the village is Benaya, like a small community, you know, up until no more than 200 people.

I grew up on my grandfather's laps, basically. He was a Holocaust survivor from Auschwitz. Listening to his stories to the atrocities made me realize that I want to be worthy to be his grandson. You know, that's all I ever wanted. I actually even tattooed

his figure because his name is Tzvi which will be a deer in English you know so I tattooed a deer with the woods which he escaped from death march 1945 you know so

Listening to his stories make me realize that I want to be worthy. And then when I was 15, he died of cancer. So I started to train to the army. You know, that's what 15 year old Israeli do. A lot of people talking about the 18 year old, but it goes way back. When you're 15 year old and you want to go to special forces, you have to train, I'd say four up to five times a week.

To get into the necessary fitness? Yeah, only to knock on the door, you know, and to say, hi, I'd like to have a series of physical and mental tests. One thing led to another, 18-year-old, drafted to special force, and ever since I've been fighting terrorists. Now, your military service began with another war, the 2014 war against Hamas in Gaza. Tell me what sort of action you saw then.

Well, atrocities, basically. When we went into Gaza to try to eliminate the threat, we were very cautious. We tried to do as minimum damage as we could with the maximum officialty. So we went very slowly, tried to be very precise. It was on the cost of our own safety.

that's that's what happened basically hang on i'm trying to understand yeah when you're fighting the war against hamas in 2014 right part of being methodical part of you know not carpet bombing gaza from the sky and going in as a special forces officer part of the precision is that you are putting yourself in danger well i mean there might be a safer way to do it but would come at

bigger civilian damage, do I understand correctly? Yeah, definitely. And why does the army do that? Well, that's... you got me, you know. Basically what we're doing is we're trying to sneak in with, again, with the minimum damage as you can imagine and to get the mission done. The mission basically is to eliminate the threat. If they wanted to bomb all over Gaza, they would never send special forces in the first place.

which really puts paid to the absurd lie that Israel is somehow committing genocide or trying to inflict or not taking care to avoid harm to Palestinians when you yourselves are saying, look, I'm a special forces officer. I get sent in when you need to be as precise as possible. I want to understand what you saw in this war in Gaza. But before that, you said that

Having come out of reserve duty on the side of being a trainee lawyer and running two NGOs, because of course you're an extraordinary human being, you've taken it on yourself to speak and share the voices of Israeli soldiers and what they've seen and to join the public diplomacy battle. And I'm wondering why you have enough on your plate as a trainee lawyer and running two NGOs. Just go back to your life. Well...

For nearly 10 years I was in the shadows. You know, I did my thing in the army, went back home and got back to the army as soon as I got the call. But then I realized that the army front is just one front out of multiple fronts that we're losing in. After a few months of fighting the war, I saw...

that the world has somehow managed to forget what I live on a daily basis, and that is the Hamas atrocities.

So when I got out after a few months of fighting and I realized that some of the most influencers are denying that the October 7th ever happened in the first place and actually taking a strong opinion against Israel, which only tried to protect itself. I had to. I had to go to the US, went abroad. I was in Alabama, Mississippi, New York,

tried to tell the story. Obviously, it offends our sense of justice and truth that there are people out there denying the atrocities of October 7th. But in the big picture, I do wonder sometimes to what extent the public diplomacy and the information war really matter. And I want to get your perspective as a soldier who was on the ground because I get the feeling that fighting for international security

Public opinion is not just about whether people like us. It's about whether their leaders will continue to give us the military, political, diplomatic support we win. And I'm wondering, from your perspective as a soldier on the battlefield, to what extent did you feel that international public opinion mattered?

in your fight as a soldier against Hamas terrorists? Well, it's like in the battlefield, it's like oxygen. You know, if you don't have the US support at this very same moment, then you'll have like a cough. You'll have like minimum possibilities to defend yourself, not even to try to eliminate the threat.

I mean, take me back, for example, when President Biden made his historic visit to Israel, the first U.S. president to visit Israel during a wartime. What did that do to morale of troops on the ground? Well, I knew it only after, you know, because we were busy. So I don't have... You weren't following the news. No.

Not the news, not what's going on with my family. It's like you're living a different reality. And then when you find out that the president of the free world has come to visit Israel, what does that do to morale to the soldiers on the ground? It made me feel better. You know, it made me feel that we have someone to watch our back. It made me feel that we actually have an ally here.

in the hour that we needed the most. And then conversely, how does it feel as a soldier on the battlefield when you hear world leaders condemning Israel, when you have

heightened focus on Israel, like with the tragedy of the killing of the World Central Kitchen staff. The first time, not the second time, when it turned out one of them was in fact a Hamas terrorist who took part in October 7th. The first time, and suddenly the whole world has this laser focus on Israel and the movement of its troops. What does that do for soldiers on the ground?

Well, first of all, that's horrible. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think seven of the volunteers of the World Central Kitchen have died, right? Yes. In war, you have mistakes. Sometimes they are horrific, but that was never in our attention as a special force to hit any volunteers.

civilian to it and not not along a volunteer from another country you know um not that i have anything to had anything to do with that specific event but that's that's the idea

You talked about the war leaders. And I do want to say that as soon as I got out after the first round of reserves, we're talking about months, day and night, fighting terrorists. Okay, you do your... I don't know how to pronounce that in a polite way, but you do your needs in a bag and you try to bury it so it won't smell. You share a can of tuna with a few of your friends because...

You need it, you know. There are no flushable toilets in a tank, you're saying. Not kitchens as well. So what I'm trying to say is after I fought day and night versus Hamas, I got out a few months after October 7th for the first time, saw the world leaders, some of them, actually taking position against Israel. It made me mad because...

None of them has ever been here in Gaza, in Judea and Samaria, at the battlefield. They have the nerve to tell me that we're committing genocide? If I would commit even one quarter than what the clown that you schooled not long ago in a debate, if I would... Mehdi Hassan, for those who won't follow. If I would have done a quarter of what he says...

then my safety will be 100% better, you know, because I could shoot whoever I want, according to his logic. But we put ourselves in danger time after time because we're trying not to fall into Hamas's traps. So tell me, what is your mission? And how has Hamas rigged the battlefield to try to make your mission impossible and place you in an impossible position? Take me inside.

You're out there. You have a warfare. You have a zone.

When you're in Gaza, you need to make sure that there are no Hamas terrorists around. You're trying to eliminate the threat, simple as it is. What they're doing, Hamas, they will take a bunch, a group of citizens, Gazans. They will lead them, tell them when to go, where to go. They will lead them. They will dress up as civilians, hide in the group.

They know you know. They know you know they know. But nobody can do anything. That's basically how it is. You're trying to wait for the time that you could spot them when there are no civilians around them. That is hard. First of all, because they dressed up as civilians. A lot of people say...

that we only need to shoot those who wear uniforms in Gaza. Please, I wish when I go to Gaza, I put on my uniform. I gave an interview once to Channel 4 in Britain. We were talking about the ONRA staff who took part in October 7th. And I said they were card carrying Hamas members. And the interviewer said, do you mean to say they were literally carrying cards? And I said, no, if they were carrying ID cards, it would

make it much easier. It's just a figure of speech. But you're seeing Hamas fighters dressed as civilians, deliberately embedding themselves among civilians so that they can open fire at you from inside a crowd. What else? How else did Hamas rig Gaza's cityscape? And what do you think they were trying to achieve? First of all, you have scouts. You know, you have

Many, 10, from 5 to 10-year-old kids riding bicycles, walking, just trying to see where the soldiers are located. Hamas, you're saying, is taking children, putting them on bicycles, children as young as 5? Definitely. The youngest I've seen was 6. I'd say, I mean, I spoke with him, so I know he was 6, but yeah, around that age. Tell me what happened.

So they're going with bicycles or either they're playing football or going with like they're trying to look innocent and they are innocent. They are children. You know, they're trying to see where you're like you IDF located and then they'll go back to Hamas. Then we'll tell them who's where.

And that's the oldest trick in the book that is happening all the time. I tell you what, when you're fighting terrorists who hides among civilians, you will get mixed with the civilians. You know, you will see them face to face. Um, and, and,

You'll have to do some explanations. You have to talk to them. You have to ask them to do some things, maybe to evacuate a specific zone that you know for sure they are terrorists around there. So...

Basically, you have, we call it hikuch, you know, it's like... Friction. Friction with the civilians. Okay. So this six-year-old cycles towards you with a bicycle and you know that Hamas is using him essentially as a child soldier. Right. To scout out. What do you do?

Well, first of all, you already know what's going on, you know, so we're trying to either make him leave by yelling something or maybe to see who sends him. It depends. If it's like a kid, you will ask him to leave. You know, sometimes they will send teenagers close to 18. That will be easier. You can actually go approach and speak with them.

But basically, you don't have a good solution to that. What else has Hamas done? There's been a lot of criticism of the way that Hamas has been fighting out of schools and homes and hospitals and mosques and tunnel entrances poking out in these civilian buildings. What did you see with your own eyes in Gaza? 2014, we had the humanitarian ceasefire.

I was on the watch and I saw an ambulance. Back then I didn't even had the idea what that means. You know, I just, I never knew that this ambulance is collaborating with Hamas. I just saw an ambulance. I like, I said it over the radio.

And then I saw from the... Like you have a narrower high window, you know? And you could see that the curtain is not closed all the way. So through the gap, I could see a stretcher with weapons, with metal, something made of metal and black on it. As soon as they opened the door...

We're talking about people with uniforms of the ambulance, right? As soon as they opened the door, they started to get bags. And I could see the edge of the weapon. Being brought out of an ambulance? Yeah. We have seen an extraordinary amount of damage here.

to the infrastructure in the Gaza Strip. We've seen very high levels of casualties and we can dispute Hamas's figures and what percentage were civilians. Many people have been killed. Right. How do you explain that? Well, first of all, we spoke about the humanitarian shield, the human shield. When they shoot from a home, someone's house,

and you're trying to shoot back and you're trying to be as precise as you can, sometimes you can harm civilians. You don't even know that it's happening because they're shooting from civilians dressed up as civilians. Sometimes they will actually hurt themselves because they think that, you know, if they think that someone is collaborating with IDF, he will be immediately executed.

So I would say three reasons. First of all is the human shield method. Second reason will be the fact that they're hurting themselves. Third reasons, I'd say they're lying for sure. I mean, who's accountable for these numbers? Who gave us the numbers? Hamas, am I right?

Yes, and I don't believe the Hamas numbers and they are inflated and they understate the military casualties. In fact, I don't even mention military casualties at all. But yet we have seen extensive damage to infrastructure in Gaza. And that has been one of the...

against Israel that it is wantonly destroying infrastructure in Gaza in order to make it uninhabitable. So my question for you as a soldier who's been in there is how do we explain the rubble? Why is so much of Gaza in ruins? How has Hamas been fighting and how has Israel been fighting that has led to this? Because observers from the outside will look and say, well, it doesn't look particularly precise when entire neighborhoods have been reduced to rubble. Mm-hmm.

will give a mouse some place to hide and it will do it. Most of Gaza is in the control of Hamas by October 7th. So they can get wherever they want with tunnels. I'd say that it's way bigger than Manhattan,

Would you agree? Oh, yes. Hamas' underground tunnel network, longer than the New York subway. Okay, so I can only say what I assume according to what I saw, but they can get anywhere they want, and they can hide anywhere they want and shoot from any building. You know, if we're doing like the legitimate targets method, meaning that I wear uniforms in Gaza, therefore they can shoot me.

Or you have a military base in Israel, therefore you can attack it, but not civilians. They're not playing this game. They're not playing any game. They just want to kill us all. And that is why they're hiding in any building. That is why any building can make a threat. So if I understand correctly, as a result of Hamas governing Gaza for 16 years before...

It launches the October 7th war. Building a network of tunnels longer than the New York subway under all of Gaza's civilian infrastructure and then fighting dirty out of that infrastructure. You end up turning a lot of Gaza into a legitimate target because they've built this military infrastructure underneath. So I'm curious, as a soldier who has a weapon, the power to kill, and you go into war,

What are the rules of engagement? When are you allowed to shoot? What constitutes a legitimate target? Take me into the mind of the soldier on the ground. Let's go. Let's take it easy. Let's go from the easy to the hardest. If you shoot me, I'll shoot you, you know, because you're making... Deal. Deal. Fair enough. I wouldn't do that. I would never do it to you either. Not even in paintball. So...

if a terrorist will shoot over then I'll know he's a terrorist for sure and I could shoot back problem is what they're doing is they're hiding behind corners of buildings mostly okay I know you have the sharp edge they will take their weapon if this is the wall they will take the weapon after the wall shoot on automatic and then they will pull back and run speaking of automatic

For the past 11 years, I've been fighting Hamas. I have never in my entire life shot an automatic, not once, but I've never been shot not on automatic. Hang on. You have an automatic weapon? I do have. Why do you not shoot on automatic? I mean, talk to me like I'm five and I know nothing about it. Sure. Each bullet has an address, you know, so you need the bullet to get to this specific place that you want it to be.

you don't want to shoot an automatic because you might miss and even if you'll hit the target you don't want to make more damage that you should you see

Fighting in the IDF could be sucks because it's not about what you want to do. It's about what needs to be done. So even if I'm angry because they murdered eight of my friends on October 7th, and I am very angry about that, and I want to do some things, I would never do what I want to do. I would do what needs to be done. So are those your orders? You're not allowed to shoot on automatic mode? Yeah, the entire IDF soldiers...

We're not doing the automatic thing unless you have a special weapon with a special... Special training. Special training, special operation. Most, the majority of the IDF soldiers were not doing the automatic thing. No matter how angry you are and you want to go Rambo. Talk to me again about legitimate targets. What counts as a legitimate target? When you're allowed to shoot. Okay, if I shoot you, you shoot me back. If there's fire coming from around a building, you're allowed to shoot back at the source of the fire.

What else? If they know for sure our intelligence, that there is a specific place, let's say a building, a room, you name it, that they have terrorists in there and they could tell that there are no civilians around. What efforts do you make as a soldier in order to prevent harm to civilians? Well, I breathe deeply, you know, because it's very intense to be in the battlefields.

day after day, night after night, you have many threats, you have many shooting from around you. If you get panicked and you'll shoot anywhere you're afraid from, any threats,

then it won't be good. You have to be patient and you have to basically risk your life because you're holding your ground. You're not shooting whenever you feel in danger. You shoot only when it's necessary. Do you think that those rules are well understood by all Israeli soldiers on the battlefield when they're allowed to shoot and when they're not? Well, yeah. Yeah.

But, you know, we're talking about a lot of people. Sometimes you do have an unfortunate occasion, you know. And it's hard for me as a civilian, as a staff, for me it's hard to judge them. I know a person who lost two of his family members, not his siblings, of his cousins. And now he's still fighting in Gaza. It's hard for me to judge his feelings, you know.

Hard to judge feelings, but at the same time, we're not a shuttle with a militia. We're a sovereign democratic country with a professional army, and it's important that soldiers understand those standards. If you'll go across the line, they will immediately pull you back and you will get kicked out immediately. We're talking about trying to prevent harm to civilians in a reality in which, as we said, Hamas is rigging the battlefield to try to...

make it impossible for you to distinguish and to exercise that international principle. That is the word impossible. Right. So have you had experiences in which they have set up a trap to deliberately trick you? Yeah. And try to...

You know, we've been saying that Hamas not only has a human shield strategy, it has a human sacrifice strategy where it tries to get people killed so it can blame it on you. We look bad on CNN and it gets pressure on Israel to leave the Hamas rapist regime standing after the war that it started. So in what ways has Hamas tried to

Play with your mind on the battlefield. Well, all the time, basically. They can make sounds of children. Up until this day, I don't know if those are real sounds or like speaker sounds. But when you're in a building, they can make sounds from a specific room, trick you in order to think that they have children over there. And they're trying to pull you in. You've heard this? Yeah, but back in 2014.

Back in 2014, you heard children's voices and you don't know whether these are real children or you have reason to think that this is on a speaker system. Right. Up until this day, I don't know what happened. But they will put... How do you say... I'm sorry. How do you say mitan?

A bomb. A bomb. They will put explosives. Not only with a black box says bomb. It could be something flat underneath a carton. It can be inside doors. It could be something that you lean on, step on, something you'll move on.

And they can make you think that there is a specific house, that there are no terrorists over there, because they won't get near that, because they know that you think it's safe. And then when you think it's safe, boom. War is obviously a horrible business, and I get the impression that sometimes...

World leaders, other commentators think that the battlefield is more sterile than it is, that you're not constantly confronted with impossible choices, that the enemy hasn't rigged the battlefield to try to confront you with impossible choices. And I wonder, how do you feel when Israel comes under international criticism for how you, you, an Israeli soldier, are operating by people who don't seem to understand how messy the reality of war is?

I feel betrayed, you know. My grandfather survived Auschwitz. He lost both of his parents there, burned to death. He survived Auschwitz, came to Israel, fought in the 1948 war. He established the state of Israel. My dad fought the 1973 Yom Kippur War. And then you have me, 50 years sharp into the future, same war, same enemy.

Same fight for existence, trying to defend my own family. That's not a joke. We're fighting for our lives here. And then when I go out for a 24 hours break from fighting terrorists who are sending children into the front lines, I read about the UN claims that we're or have investigations of the claims that we're committing genocide. I mean, are you kidding me? I feel betrayed.

We came up with the phrase. I mean, we, the Jewish people, we're the reason you have the phrase genocide in the first place. So October 7th happens, and how quickly do you find yourself in uniform, in action? A couple of hours. You are called up for reserves? Yeah. Is that a choice? It's a legal obligation? Let's start from the beginning. I'm an IDF disabled, so...

You're a wounded veteran. Yeah, wounded veteran. I have my card, you know. If I wanted to, I could get out of reserves immediately. Not even talking about special force.

I had to go through a series of treatments in order to be fit, to stay in shape, to do what I do. What happened to you, share with us. Well, my shoulder got badly dislocated in 2014 in the war. I was on top of like a tank.

And then they shot at me, so I jumped over, but I still held like a pole, and then my shoulder just got badly dislocated, and then it happened again and again. So you're technically a disabled veteran. You could get out of military service altogether if you wanted to, so it's not really a legal obligation for you. So I get back to my question. You're in the tank, you're sleeping in an open field, staring up at the stars, thinking...

What the hell am I doing here? How do you answer that? What motivates you? That I want my family to live. You have to understand, I mean that. They're constantly, Hamas and Iran's proxies, they're constantly trying to eliminate the Jewish people. They're having an attack in the Jaffa train, killing eight people. They will stab, they will run over, they will bomb civilians everywhere.

I know that I have the option to defend my people, to defend my mom, to defend my girlfriend, my fiance. I'm sorry. Mazel tov. Thank you. I don't want to get in trouble. My beautiful fiance. And I have to, you know, but it's not because I have to because of the moral obligation, because I could get out the minute I wanted. I have to because it's a moral compass. And I keep thinking that if my grandfather could fight the Nazis when he's in Auschwitz, then I'm...

I can do my part fighting the new Nazis. Do you think that that perception is common among your fellow comrades? Because you said people have a right to be angry. And of course, they have a right to be livid about what happened to their friends on October 7th. But there is a perception internationally sometimes that very much leaning into old Christian anti-Semitism, right? About vengeful Jews. The belief that Israelis are acting out of blind anger.

And vengeance. And yet what you described to me is that you regard this war as genuinely existential for our country, for our people, and for your family as well. It's about defending your family so that terrorists cannot invade their village and murder and abduct them like they did on October 7th. So I wonder if you can speak for your brothers in arms about

What is motivating them at a point when, come on, you get called up for reserves. There are ways to wriggle out of it by now. Definitely. Easily, by the way. I think it's the same reason. And it is as simple as that. We are fighting for our very existence. You don't have a choice. And again, not the legal choice, the existential choice. You know, you have a humanitarian hallway in the middle of Gaza. The humanitarian corridor. Thank you. Yeah.

Sometimes civilians want to go from one place to another. It could be old people. It could be wounded or sick people. We'll help them. We'll have them cross. We'll have them to get from A to B physically. We will carry their things, belongings. They will lean on us. We will give them the shoulder that they need. Yeah, they would never film that. They would never...

It will never go viral. What do you mean Israeli soldiers are helping Palestinian civilians, carrying them, allowing them to lean on them? This isn't the behavior one expects from the IDF's unearned reputation around the world. Really? I mean, why not? Because people around the world think you're baby killers.

The IDF has a very bad reputation nowadays as a result of a very toxic propaganda war that has been waged against us that is trying to paint this war not as you describe it, a war of precision and deliberation to try to eliminate an enemy threatening to do October 7th again and again. They think that Israeli soldiers are deliberately trying to harm us.

Palestinian civilians. They think it's deliberate. If we wanted to harm them, the war wouldn't never go for 14 months. It will go for a day at the most, you know.

or less than 14 months. What we're trying to do in Gaza is we have to help the civilians. And I don't mean like national law have to. Even though I respect it and I act according it, I don't need the international law to tell me what to do. You know, I have my morality. I have my orders that I sworn by to act by when they gave me a weapon in the first place.

When I see a civilian in Gaza and I can make sure that he's not a terrorist, we have our methods. We'll help them. We'll help them to get to safety. We'll give them food. I gave a 10-year-old kid a hamgashit, you know, like a box of food. I could see the media guys with the vest with the media. They saw us. They never took pictures of it. It's not interesting. Yeah, I guess not. But, you know, if the job of the media is to report something...

surprising or contrary to the narrative then that's interesting right because that's man bites dog but anyway yeah um anyway when we see them when we see civilians we're trying to help them because we're they're not our they're not our goal you know my goal is to eliminate hamas okay let me tell you this when i was 18 i fought hamas when i was 28 i fought hamas

If it will happen again, you know the math, when I'll be 38, when my son will be born, he'll have to face Hamas just like my dad, just like my grandfather with the Nazis. When we see civilians, we're trying to move them away if we can.

and to eliminate the threat. If they'll stay put, we won't be able to reach the terrorists because I would never, I mean, I won't shoot towards the group of the civilians that I see, even though I know, I know that there are terrorists in there. I know. And sometimes I even know who, but I cannot take the risk that I'll miss the shot. You fought Hamas when you were 18. Yeah. You fought Hamas when you were 28. You don't want to fight Hamas when you're 38. Yeah.

What needs to happen to make sure that you're not back in uniform in 38? Finish the job. What does that mean? That means not to do what we did in 2014. You know, in 2014, we fought. I've lost some friends in the battlefield. One of them in my own hands. He died in my own hands. Moshe Kodovino drew his last breath in my hands. It happened again because we never finished the job. We harmed Hamas in 2014, but we never...

eliminated the threat. You need to overthrow, you need to make sure that the government won't be able to have another army from more money they'll get because they keep getting money. I mean, that's crazy. I cannot understand why it's happening from the word. I'm not talking about the Qatar money, you know, about the Iranian money. What we need to do is to make sure that the threat won't go big again.

If I may, I know I'm going, it's not about that, but when I went to the States, when I went to Colombia, and I could see these students, I saw one student, a female, a girl with, I'd say, 20-year-old, with shorts and keffiyeh around the waist,

And I find it funny because if she'll go in Ramallah dressed up like that, she will get executed immediately. So what I'm trying to say is the support that the students are giving Hamas in the name of the pro-Palestinian resistance...

What they're making is that the threat will get to them. You know, you say West is next. I agree. I say West is now. If we won't eliminate the threat today, you'll have more Tyler Swift terror attacks in Europe. You'll have more and more damage to the entire world because that's what they're trying to do. And I can see it in the battlefield. We've spoken a lot about your motivations for why you...

You mentioned your Holocaust grandfather. Holocaust survivor grandfather. You've spoken about the desire to prevent another October 7th, to be on the front lines of the free world in preventing this extremist violence from spreading. As we film this episode, there are still 100 hostages trapped in the Gaza terror dungeons. Tell me among your friends in the special forces, to what extent the hostage issue, the hostage crisis is,

is weighing on your minds as a central motivation to wake up every morning and keep doing the dirty work of waging a war? Whenever I'll get the call, I'll go back in and fight Hamas because even though I have a choice not to, because the legal obligation, you can easily get out of it. Even though I have a choice, they, the hostages, don't have a choice either.

And say whatever you want about Israelis. But when the time is coming, the money time, we're sticking together. As long as there are hostages in Gaza's tunnels, I will not rest. You can give me a break from one round to another to keep me fresh. Let's go, by all means. But you can call me for as many rounds as you want. You...

I've done a round of campuses, so let me pose a question that I received when I was at the University of Calgary in Canada, just before I got Allahu Akbar'd off campus by the protesters. There was one girl in the audience who was very hostile and was shouting at me, Israel isn't fighting for the hostages, Israel just wants to destroy Gaza. No, I'm not a soldier. I haven't fought a war. You have.

What would you have told her if she had said to your face, you're not fighting for the hostages? I would go with it, you know, mostly questions, because I know that they are brainwashed. You're such a Jew, answering a question with another question. I'll tell you why though, because when I met the protesters, I realized that I could never persuade them for something else. I realized that it's easy to brainwash someone's mind rather than convince them.

Someone, you know, the girl who led the raid on Colombia on May, she told me and her colleague that Arabs in Israel are not allowed to go wherever they want. I never said a word. I just asked, what makes you think that? Googled Arab Supreme Court judge, showed her. Arab parliament members in the Knesset in Israel's parliament show, you know, so...

Mostly I would deal with facts. Stav, I'm really glad that on the sidelines of being a trainee lawyer, running two NGOs and planning a wedding as well.

You have the time to be what we call a citizen spokesperson, someone who's simply taking it on himself to speak up for Israel and the Jewish people speaking to campuses. And afterwards, offline, let's talk about maybe how we can support your efforts. And I'm really glad that you've filmed content with us as well with the citizen spokesperson's office. And we're at your disposal because yours is an important voice we want to elevate.

For people who want to continue following your work and hear more from you and about you, how can they follow you? Well, first of all, thank you. That was my pleasure being here. And it's all in my profile in Instagram, stavkoen.il.

It's all in there. Just Instagram or other social media platforms? Well, I also do TikTok, but they banned me because I'm not supporting Hamas. You got banned from TikTok? Well, my posts are not going above 30 viewers. Oh, you think you've been shadow banned? Oh, definitely. No, no, no.

Send me the details. We'll try to sort it out with TikTok. I'd love to. Okay, Stavko, and normally in the previous set of the podcast, we used to shake hands at the end, but we can't. So instead we'll shink glasses and say truly L'chaim to life and Mazel Tov.

And that brings us to the end of today's episode of State of a Nation with our new podcast set here in Tel Aviv. As always, if you enjoy this episode and the podcast, please subscribe and follow on YouTube, on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us and give us a like on social media platforms as well. And please share the link with a friend, with a neighbor, with a family member. You think we'll find these conversations enlightening and informative.

I'm Elon Levy, and thanks for joining us.