Syria’s New Era | Lebanese-Syrian Activist Rawan Osman on The New Middle East
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They're no longer afraid of being assassinated by Hezbollah. The death of Nasrallah was colossal. That changed the history in our region. It destroyed the spirit of the acts of resistance.

Hello and welcome to State of a Nation. I'm Elon Levy. The world is watching in shock and cautious hope at the dramatic and unexpected developments in Syria. After decades of brutal oppression under the Assad regime, and after nearly 14 years of civil war, a seismic shift has occurred. Assad is gone.

the new ruler of Syria, rebel leader Abu Muhammad al-Jolani, head of the Islamist militia Hayat Tahrir al-Sham. Until just a few days ago, the US government had a $10 million bounty on his head for information on his whereabouts, a reward that is now completely useless now that he's holding meetings with world leaders at the presidential palace in Damascus.

Syria is one of the seven fronts from which Israel has been attacked over the October 7th war. The Iranian regime used it to manufacture ballistic missiles. Israel just declassified footage of a stunning ground operation to blow up one of those underground factories.

The Ayatollahs also used Syrian territory to transfer WMDs to Hezbollah in Lebanon. And Israel responded. It responded to the fall of the Assad regime by seizing this strategic moment of opportunity. It bombed the regime's chemical weapons and WMDs to stop them from falling in the hands of jihadists. Thanks to Israel, jihadists don't have Assad's navy.

That's part of how Israel is keeping the world safe, and you can thank us later.

Israel also sent forces into the buffer zone that was patrolled by UN observers, patrolled until those observers were attacked by armed gunmen and the IDF stepped in to protect them. I was asked in an interview, by the way, how long the IDF would remain inside Syria, and I said that Israel is going to want serious guarantees that whatever UN observers take their place are not going to fold like an umbrella at the first sight of rain.

This new position places Israel on top of Mount Hermon, with a 360-degree view of the region and a clear path over Syria towards Iran's nuclear facilities. There are voices in Israel right now saying that now is the time to destroy the Iranian nuclear program before the Ayatollahs gain the ability to destroy Israel.

And the next Prime Minister of Canada, Pierre Polyev, is saying if Israel stops the Iranian regime from getting nuclear weapons, it would be Israel's gift to humanity. But back to Syria. The new regime is what analysts call a "black swan". A surprise event with major effects which we can rationalise in hindsight, but nobody saw coming. But what will those effects be?

Is this the start of a new era of peace and reconciliation? Does the collapse of the Iranian axis in the region liberate Syria to put war behind it? Or does this mark the start of a spiral into further chaos? To find out, that's why I wanted Rohan Osman back on the podcast. Rohan Osman is Syrian and Lebanese and an activist for peace with Israel.

Her last episode was one of our most popular, not just in English but also in Spanish, thanks to the innovative AI dubbing that brought her powerful insights to a wider audience. And by the way, if you have friends in the Spanish-speaking world, tell them to subscribe to Israel Estado de una Nación to hear all of these conversations dubbed into Spanish. I wanted to pick Roman's brains on what this turning point means.

and how we turn the dial of history towards ending this conflict with peace, not just a piece of paper. Today's conversation is one you won't want to miss. We'll be unpacking three key topics together. One, the fall of the Assad regime and its ripple effects. What does this dramatic shift mean for Syria's future, for stability in the region, and for Israel's strategic position in the wake of the October 7th massacre? Two,

changing perceptions on the ground in Lebanon and Syria. How are ordinary people, long silenced by fear, cowed by Iran's proxy armies, now speaking out against Hezbollah and the Iranian regime's influence? And what does this mean for the potential for peace? We also look at that bombshell 60 Minutes report about the Pager operation and how that is shifting perceptions in the region. And three, we look at the power of grassroots diplomacy and human connections.

From social media to face-to-face conversations, Rawan is sharing how Syrians and Lebanese in their diasporas are beginning to question old narratives and embrace the once unthinkable possibility of coexistence with Israel. This is a conversation with an extraordinary guest, a friend, about hope in uncertain times, about the power of truth and courage,

and about the small but vital steps that could reshape the future of our region at this critical turning point. Let's dive between the lines and beyond the headlines.

Rowan Habibdi, welcome back to State of a Nation.

Nice to see you again. It's so good to have old faces back on the podcast, especially faces who were, you know, the last episode we did was by far one of our most successful podcasts, not only in English, but also the Spanish version. Have you seen the Spanish version? No. We have partnered up with an Israeli AI firm called Linguana. They're a company that's been working on a new AI platform

that is doing AI dubbing for all of our podcast episodes. It's incredible technology because it replicates it in your voice. So if you watch the episode on YouTube, Estado de una Nación, I would be scared. You can hear you talking in Spanish how Israel no es el enemigo. Israel is not the enemy. Speaking Spanish in your voice. And it's one of the most wildly popular episodes we have.

Well, I'm very, very happy to hear. I'd like to know how I sound in Spanish. You sound perfect. And this one's going out in Spanish, too. Rowan, you're back in Israel. Yesterday, you met my old boss, President Isaac Herzog. Tell me how the meeting with Israel's president went. Awesome. He's a mensch. I met him and his wife, although I've already met his wife last May.

I had the honor to like spending half an hour with them. They had questions, asked me about my background, my story, which intrigues everybody. But we also spoke about the future of the region. They also have roots in Syria, in the Arab world. So we talked a bit about

Do they? The president's a big family history buff and talks a lot about his family's connections, but I'd never actually heard the Syrian connection. We spoke Arabic as well. No, you didn't know it. We did. And French. And Hebrew. The president's mother was born in Egypt. Egypt.

But I wasn't aware of a Syrian connection. I think it might have been his wife. But they have connections in the region. And we were talking about a future where people will be able to visit the graves of their ancestors, of their grandparents. Yeah, I'm very optimistic. And what else did you discuss with the president?

We talked about the developments in Lebanon and Syria, and they asked about what are people thinking on the ground. In this day and age, we have social media, so the Lebanese do not think the same way I did when I was a teenager, thinking Hezbollah are heroes and Israel attacks us out of the blue. People understand, so...

I conveyed the messages of Syrians and Lebanese who cannot afford speaking up out of fear of retaliation. Things are changing, Elan. My Lebanese and Syrian friends living in the comfort of Sydney and Toronto think our people are unsophisticated. They are not ready for peace. But the reality is, and I hear this from my followers on TikTok, and they're all Arabs,

People who live in Syria and Lebanon, people who went through hell, especially in the last 10 years, who were feeding their children from garbage and people think I'm exaggerating. They do not buy into the narrative of the axis of resistance

trying to liberate the poor Palestinians. They know it's nonsense. There are cartels, drug dealers, terrorists. They want peace with Israel. They want Beirut and Damascus to look like Dubai, not like Gaza. That's amazing. And that's a really optimistic vision. And part of what I want to discuss with you now about

The shifting landscape for Israel politically, strategically in a new Middle East that is being defined by the collapse of Iran's axis of resistance, the fall of the Assad regime, the destruction of Hezbollah's military, the destruction of Hamas.

For us, Syria and Lebanon are countries that are across a border, over checkpoints, over military lines, but they're so close. And it's so fascinating that now with the ability of social media, I hope that people in Syria and Lebanon are watching the stuff that I'm posting. And when I say that the war in Lebanon should end with peace, not a piece of paper, which is my favorite soundbite, I really hope that they're watching in Lebanon. You've also been meeting with the Israeli public who must be

fascinated by you. Tell me how that's been going. I've traveled a lot on this trip, but especially to the Golan Heights. Normally, I'm told by many Israelis, do not go there. It's too dangerous. But after the signing of the ceasefire,

I could travel this time. And many Syrians tell me, you're well connected in Israel. Tell them to give us back the Golden Heights. Hold on a second. That's not up to me. Let's go ask the people who live there. So I made a lot of videos. It needs editing. It's going to be posted. People who told me, no, thank you. We're happy here. You're talking not just the Israelis, also the Druze residents. The Druze who don't have Israeli citizenship or passports.

Because for a long time, I mean, let's, for viewers and listeners, lay out the context. Israel captures the Golan Heights from Syria in 1967, including a Druze population who for many years don't take Israeli citizenship, almost go out of their way to protest their loyalty to the Assad regime for fear that the Golan Heights might one day be handed back to Assad and they will be subject of a retribution. And now that's shifting because they're not afraid. So what are you hearing from them now that that fear filter has gone?

Unbelievable. First of all, I heard that in the last few years, more youngsters are applying for Israeli citizenship. Of course, everybody wants peace in the region, especially the Druze with Lebanon and Syria, so that they can visit their siblings, their cousins. But they said, no, thank you. We are respected citizens here. We're not afraid of the mokhabarat, of any intelligence apparatus here.

And we have the very basics, medical insurance, a pension system. They showed me in one village called Ain Qania, it's unbelievable, the head of the municipality there.

He showed me the projects that are financed by the Israeli government. Schools, stadiums. He's an athlete. He went to championships around the world and he has such a vision and he inspires the young Druze, but also Muslims. He showed me a village called Gajar, Alawite. They wanted to become part of Israel. So I heard a lot of experiences.

I also met a lady called Nadia, she's Lebanese, she married to the Golan Heights, she has family in Lebanon and she's saying it's absurd. We always had to travel to Turkey, to Cyprus to meet. So, inshallah, bizzat Hashem, I'll be able to visit them and they will be able to visit me if we sign peace deals. The question is, will the peace deal will be with Lebanon first or will it be with Syria?

I'm really optimistic in spite of everything happening on the ground. Well, let's have a look at what's happening on the ground now to try to map out how we can move towards that vision of peace between Israel and its neighbors. And I want to start us off talking about the dramatic developments in Syria, specifically the shock fall of the Assad regime, a plot twist that I don't think anyone saw coming. You know, sometimes it feels we're living in a movie and the plot writers that the screenwriters have gone a little bit mad.

Last time we spoke here in the studio, it feels like a world away. It was before Israel's elimination of Nasrallah. In fact, you predicted it just a week before. I did. The entire Hamas, the entire Hezbollah leadership before the beeper operation, what I'm calling Operation Beep Beep, before the surprise fall of the Assad regime.

Now, for most of the October 7th war, Syria was actually perhaps the most quiet of the seven fronts from which Israel has been attacked. It was relevant mainly as an arms corridor for Iran to smuggle weapons to Hezbollah, less as an actual base of rocket and drone attacks against Israel, although that did come. And now it's undergoing perhaps

perhaps the most dramatic transformation of any of the fronts, either bringing to an end a civil war or simply shifting it into a new phase. And I want to get your sense of how optimistic you are about what this means for Syria and what this means for Israel's strategic position in the region, because I'm hearing two voices, the more pessimistic and the more optimistic. On the one hand, Israel's leadership is being extremely hawkish.

The foreign minister, deputy foreign minister, is saying Al-Jolani is a wolf in sheep's clothing. This is a jihadi gang. Al-Qaeda, let's remember, they were on the U.S. bounty terror. There was a U.S. bounty on Jolani's head until just a few days ago. Do not fall for the attempts at moderation. This is Al-Qaeda that has taken over Damascus. But I'm hearing a different voice. I'm hearing a different voice from reporters who have been on the ground in Syria saying that

They say, look, these are jihadists. They haven't changed their stripes, but they ask them, so you're going to start a war with Israel next? And they're saying, one, are you crazy? We've just ended 13 years of civil war. We need to focus on rebuilding Syria. We're tired. We don't want another war. And two, did you see what these guys did to Hezbollah? We'd have to be crazy to pick a fight. So I'm wondering how you think that Israel should look at Syria. Is this an opportunity? Is this a challenge? What does this mean for us?

As a Syrian, I can tell you that many Syrians gave up on getting rid of Assad. It's like, it's your nightmare. He's not even going to die of old age. He's there. And all of a sudden, a ceasefire deal is signed between Hezbollah and Israel. And the massive plot twist came to reality. Look, I read it differently. Israel was taking out any Hezbollah member who sneezed in Lebanon and Syria.

And yet, still, they did not interfere when the rebels, including jihadists, many former al-Qaeda and ISIS members, started advancing. They took Aleppo, Hama, Homs, Damascus. In the span of 11 days, al-Assad, the monster of the century, was gone. He escaped like a mouse. I understand everybody's concerns.

Al-Julani did not transform into John Travolta. He's still a jihadist, a former Qaeda member. So do I trust him? Not at all. Do I trust his team? Many of them were identified by many intelligence services around the world as former Qaeda and ISIS members. They committed atrocities, right? And it's not that they've repented or changed their stripes. They've just trimmed their beards and put on a suit now.

I don't know, and this is where I read it differently. Israel allowed it to happen in spite of the risks. They did what the USA, what Israel could have never done. Had anybody killed Assad, he would have become a national hero like Saddam Hussein. They were allowed to do what they did,

It's good for the Syrian people. Finally, an era, 54 years of Assad regime is over. This is good news for the region, especially for Israel, because the corridor was closed between Iran and Hezbollah. Now, is this good news for the Syrian people? I don't believe that al-Julani is sophisticated enough to have done this on his own. A lot of people are monitoring the situation in Syria and helped him.

realize what Al-Julani and his people, these guys, did. They did not. They avoided bloodshed. We have to be realistic. This is why the Syrian people are happy. They did not kill Alawites, Christians. They appointed a Christian patriarch as the mayor of Aleppo. Now, they arrived in Damascus and they promised... Of course, lack of bloodshed because the Syrian army collapsed. I mean, he gave up Damascus without a fight.

But they did not slaughter people on the way in, like Alawites. Of course, there is a vendetta between the Syrians and the Alawites. Not all of them were involved with Assad, but the majority was. Are we not seeing revenge killings, the takeover of Alawite areas? These are individual cases. And I say this because I know what's happening on the ground, from people on the ground. This shouldn't happen. When you see lynching, and this is not, it looks awful.

But these individuals are responsible for the disappearance, for the torture and the murder of thousands. And they were nasty. But this is not acceptable. Arrest them, put them in prison and let them go to court. And this started like there was a wave of arrests in the last few days. I'm saying that now what is what's more concerning is that they promised to hand over to an elected leadership by March.

Now, the tone changed completely in the last few days, where Al-Julani is saying elections might take a few years. New leadership will come after a few years. A constitution needs years to be developed. What are you talking about? Are you fit for governance? Let's not forget he did not change his style and he's not pretending. Even if he trimmed his beard, he still asked the CNN reporter to cover her hair and she accepted, which is a no-go.

So I'm worried. However, I'm not as worried as the Israelis were thinking that Afghanistan, Syria is the new Afghanistan. No, you cannot compare Syria to Afghanistan or to Egypt. I don't think we need to think that somehow they've changed their spots to think that there's a strategic opportunity for Israel here, for Syria to be at least a neutral state, right? Because...

nasty jihadists as they may be who've taken over Damascus, they have no interest in allowing the Iranian regime to maintain a military presence in Syria and allowing Iran to use it as an arms corridor. And so maybe there's an opportunity for Israel to reach an accommodation, a modus vivendi with the new regime in Syria to say, look, we've established this buffer zone along the Golan Heights. You stay away from the border. You don't let the Iranians use your territory.

And we'll have non-aggression, at least, if not peace immediately. It was helpful for everybody that Israel demilitarized Syria swiftly. Because these buffoons, some of them are buffoons. Let me just explain. When you talk about Israel demilitarizing Syria, we're talking about the...

astonishing wave of airstrikes in the days after the fall of the Assad regime. Destroying the military. When Israel destroyed, right, destroyed Assad's navy, destroyed his weapons of mass destruction, his chemical weapons to stop them falling in the hands of the jihadists. You're saying this is a positive thing for Syria? Absolutely. Who would stop jihadists from using chemical weapons against the Kurds, for example?

The world owes the Kurds big time. Men and women, they fought ISIS. We owe them and we don't repay them by allowing jihadists to slaughter them, which is one of Erdogan's wishes. And the world has to interfere. I don't know what the future might bring, but I think one way for the Kurds to avoid what Erdogan has in mind for them would be

to remain part of Syria, but to seize the opportunity and try and demand from the new leadership that at least in the regions, Kurdish becomes an official language, and why not, as well as Syriac for the Christians. Imagine the same way we see signs in Israel

written in Arabic, Hebrew and English. Imagine a Syria where the official languages are Arabic, Kurdish and Syriac. And why not? Will the Syrians seize this opportunity to build a model in the Middle East that might inspire Lebanon, that might inspire Iraq? Because we do. These countries consist of many minorities. They are diverse.

And we're actually seeing, Israel is saying it doesn't want to interfere in Syria's internal affairs at all. We're taking this buffer zone apart from that we're not interfering. But actually we are hearing noises from the Israeli leadership flagging up internationally the need to protect Syria's minorities. Um,

Just the other week, Foreign Minister Gideon Sarr spoke about the need to protect the Kurds in Syria. And in fact, just minutes before we started recording this podcast, I saw he released a tweet. Foreign Minister Gideon Sarr spoke with the foreign minister of Greece and says that he underscored the need to urgently safeguard Syria's minorities, including the Kurds, Alawites and Christians.

And I'm wondering, do you think that this is something that Israel should be getting involved in at all, the fate of Syria's minorities? I mean, does this help or does this hinder? No, I think it helps. It is a fact that Israel is the strongest player in the region today, and they've proved their superiority, especially after the beating Hezbollah took in Lebanon. Did you see that the Druze in southern Syria

held a referendum and they voted unanimously unanimously unanimously

saying we'd like to be part of Israel. This is unbelievable. Now, this is a massive plot twist. People were afraid of saying Israel. No one imagined that Sinois launching a barbaric invasion on October 7th would end with parts of Syria trying to secede and form a union with Israel. It's wild. Absolutely wild. But also crazy, you know, while Israel talks about this being a temporary buffer zone,

In what constellation can Israel possibly cede territory if the local population is saying, no, no, no, no, no, don't leave us without effective guarantees for those minorities? Doesn't that open a door and require that Israel communicates with the Syrian leadership? But can Israel communicate with former Qaeda and ISIS members effectively?

I think if they're not going to go, if this is what we, if this is the...

The reality in the region in Syria now, I don't know if Israel should communicate with them, but that would help. They shouldn't leave the ground for the Qataris and for the Turkish. Sure, because the Qataris and Turks have been playing a really destructive role in the region as two of Hamas's biggest patrons. One of the guests we've had here on the podcast, Seth Fransman from the Jerusalem Post, makes the point that

What empowered Hamas was not necessarily the backing of the Iranian regime, but the fact that it received support from two Western allies.

from a NATO member, Turkey, from a non-NATO US ally, Qatar. That was what gave Hamas the feeling of invincibility, not the Iranian regime. And these appear to be two of the players that may benefit most from the shift inside Syria. And Israel will find a need to way to stop them using that as a base for hostility to Israel. But I want to get your sense actually of this character, al-Jilani.

popped into our lives seemingly out of nowhere. I was asked a question about him on Times Radio in the UK the other day that I wasn't sure how to answer. I want to get your take on it. They said Al-Jolani means the Golani, right? His nom de guerre is Golan.

What is this going to mean for Israel's control of the Golan Heights that it captured back in 1967? Is this a man who, I mean, what's his connection to the Golan Heights? Does he think that he has some sort of goal to reclaim the Golan Heights for Syria? How should we deal with this ominous moniker? Indeed, I also thought, why is this not a guerre al Golan in Israel?

When he says that we are not going to allow anybody to use Syrian ground to attack Israel, I thought that's promising. So maybe he's serious about... And he said Israel. He didn't say the Zionist entity. Exactly. That was promising. But now he's saying a constitution doesn't take two months, as he originally thought. It might take four years. Romain, do you know how long Israel's been working on a constitution? Oh, I know.

You know our Declaration of Independence promises a constitution by October 1948 or 9? He promised elections. And now he changed his mind. So I hope he doesn't change his mind about Israel. But let's be realistic. Jokes aside. He saw what happened to Hezbollah in Lebanon.

They know in the region, except the Houthis, because they are crazy, every other militia knows in the region you don't mess with the Israelis. They weren't sleeping. They proved superiority. So he wouldn't be that stupid. And I think, as I said, it's not his doing. This was an orchestrated, swift move, which ousted Assad completely.

What is the future of Syria? If they are clever, and he sounds very pragmatic, if they are clever, they should open a channel with the Israelis. Will the Israelis be ready to talk to them? I don't know. I would hope that we have at least back channels through spy agencies or intermediaries. But quite apart from the question of dealing with the leadership, there's the question of dealing with the people. Yes. And one of the most dramatic things

overlooked chapters, perhaps, of the Syrian civil war was Israel's Operation Good Neighbor, where for the duration of much of the civil war, Israel took in thousands of Syrians into Israeli territory for medical treatment, sent in humanitarian aid, flour, meat, medical supplies, you name it, into Syria. And I wonder now that Assad is gone,

What do you think the legacy of Israel's humanitarian aid operation in Syria is? Did it buy us goodwill and understanding that Israel isn't the enemy, a desire to pick up where we left off because those relationships couldn't be pursued during the civil war? What basis is there for Israel to speak with Syrians?

I met on this trip the officer who was in charge of this operation. A Yaldra? Yes. And I told him what I'm going... I translated his book about the operation. Really? Yes. It hasn't come out yet. And I told him what to him was a nice surprise. I know many Syrians in Europe who refused to partake in demonstrations, anti-Israel demonstrations, supporting Gaza, because they were treated in Israel. There is a ripple effect to kindness.

This is why, and he was present at that event, I told the people who came to see me, to meet me, what do you think about sponsoring a Syrian family? If an Israeli family sponsors a Syrian family, 100 US dollars makes a huge difference. And we're not creating parasites. We're not operating like UNRWA.

We're telling them, I'm supporting you until you stand on your feet, because we believe you will stand on your feet. It would be really interesting to do it for three or six months and to see who in Syria would accept to take the money. And this is not official. This is humanitarian. And we will ask, I don't know, maybe a church to be involved, whoever agrees to transfer this money. And we can start planting seeds.

And I do believe that this can change the situation between the people. You mean that Israel should now send humanitarian aid into Syria? Not officially. I just asked people who were sitting there, what do you think about this idea? And while I was speaking, people started raising their hands and I said questions at the end. And they said, no, no, I don't want to interrupt you, but I just want to say you have the first family. You have the second family. You have the third family. That was unbelievable. Israelis who want to come to Syria. Israelis who said, yes, I'm sponsoring a Syrian family. Find me one.

That's amazing. So this way we can start building bridges, small bridges, but we can build on that. You know, I've been thinking a lot during the fall of the Assad regime about the tragedy of Syria's minorities and the Middle East minorities. I look back, you know, when the French built Syria into a modern state.

Originally, they had a bunch of different mandates. There was the Christian mandate that ultimately became Lebanon. There was a little Druze microstate. There was an Alawite state on the border. There was a state of Aleppo. And they mowed them all together into this chimera called Syria. By the way, I was listening to another podcast that described Syria's history as...

this succession of empires and conquerors. And I said, you know, this story is so familiar because it's a story we tell about the land of Israel as well. Modern Syrian identity is very much a more modern construct. But I couldn't help think how things would have looked if back in the 1920s, the French had left a little Druze state, a little Alawite state, in addition to the little Christian state, a state that would have had a large Kurdish minority.

And if they had decided that actually they wanted to throw their lot in with the Jews in an alliance of minorities in the Middle East. And instead, the tragedy was that the Christians and the Alawites became the most vocal Arab nationalists because they saw it as their way to fit in the Middle East and make sure that the defining identity would be a secular Arab nationalist one.

rather than a Muslim religious one. And that led them to throw in their lot with other people in the region against Israel. And it's all exploded so dramatically in their faces now that the Alawites and Kurds and Christians in Syria, I think, have a very big reason to be fearful of the Islamic fundamentalist leadership that's taken over in Syria. And I'm wondering, do you think that the

There's any introspection, any soul-searching about whether it was a terrible mistake to have thrown in their lot with pan-Arab nationalism and that they should build those bridges with Israel, the Jews and other minorities in the Middle East now that they see that that experiment with pan-Arab nationalism has led them to disaster?

Indeed, and you hear many voices, especially in Lebanon on the news, where the margin for freedom is much bigger than in other Arab countries. People talking about this myth, the nationalist narrative that fell apart because we are not alike.

The Gazans are not like the Lebanese. The Gazans are not like the Syrians. So this idea of we're all Arabs and we have one cause, we have everything in common. No, we do not. Our histories are different. Our goals, our visions, our culture even is different, although the region was Arabized and Islamized. And especially in Syria. Syria, I heard some so-called experts in Israel comparing Syria to Egypt.

Egypt has a vast Sunni majority. Syria is completely different. We don't have accurate numbers due to the civil war, but we know that 60% of Syria today is roughly Sunni. And the rest are minorities. We have Druze, we have Kurds, we have Christians, even among Christians there are different minorities.

But let's go back to the Sunni, 60%. Most of them are secular because the two taboos you don't talk about during Assad regime, politics and religion. So they are afraid of... Most of Syria is secular? Most of Syria is secular. How are you defining secular, though? Secular means you don't... They're not sectarian, unlike the Lebanese who went through a horrible civil war. In Syria, they were afraid...

You don't talk about religion, you don't talk about politics. I'll tell you why they're afraid of talking about religion. Back in the 80s in Hama, there was this tendency towards jihadism and al-Assad bombed Hama and Homs. The estimates are 40,000 dead. He just killed everybody in Hama. Christian, Muslim, jihadist, non-jihadist, he just killed everybody.

This was back in 1982, right? So in Syria, you know, you don't mention politics because that's the realm of Assad. You don't talk about religion. You don't grow your beard because you might be suspected of having tendencies towards jihadism. So the country is secular. And if you don't believe me, remember, bear in mind that millions of Syrians were displaced and they had to leave the country.

These refugees, millions of Syrian refugees who live in the West, became secular. Of course, I'm aware, I live in Germany, many are extreme, they have extreme views, if they frequent specific mosques.

But in general, people had a brilliant experience. They studied in the West. They learned so many different languages. Remember that there was a wave of exiled Syrians or Syrians who left voluntarily. They acquired skills. They're secular.

And they have seen different models. They've seen what diversity means and that it's possible. And today, as they build friendships with people, regardless of their background, also with Jews, they are saying, hold on a second. We don't need to eliminate anybody in Syria. It's actually this diversity that is our wealth and we can build upon it. How do we build diversity?

On that, how do we convince Syrians living in Syria and in the diaspora in Europe as well, that we're not their enemy and we're not the bogeyman that they told them about? And there is no reason for there to be enmity or hostility or animosity between us and that we should have peace and we should have good neighborly relations.

Towards the end of the war in Lebanon, I wanted to know what the Lebanese and the Syrians are thinking. I was truly wondering, do they think like I used to when I was a teenager? So I built a TikTok account, although I had given up on that platform because it is the most anti-Semitic on social media.

And I started posting videos in Arabic without English subtitles. I did not want any Zionists, any Israelis, no fans there complimenting me. I wanted to know what the Arabs think if they see me wearing my Magan David talking about peace with Israel. And I was surprised. Those who live in Syria and Lebanon say, Hezbollah, what have they done to us? The country is destroyed because of them. Lebanon became a failed state because of Hezbollah, because of an Iranian agenda.

The Syrians in Syria... Because of the Iranian regime agenda. One of the most common... The Islamic regime. People always correct me. The Iranians protest. They say, don't say Iranian. My social media is full of some... I mean, sometimes I say Iran just because Islamic Republic of Iran is such a mouthful. It's shorthand. But Iranians are getting... get really angry on social media that you say Iran. So the Islamic regime in Iran...

has an agenda that destroyed a region. And I'm not talking about 10 comments, I'm talking about thousands of comments. In a span of two months, I had more than 40,000 followers. And in the video insights, I see where they're commenting and watching from. They're in the region and they're saying, since 2011, what happened to us is unbelievable and the world was indifferent. We did not see protests on the streets.

In the West, we did not see anybody on universities in the USA dying for us, protesting, saying, hello, he used chemical weapons. Assad, and it's not a rumor, used chemical weapons against his people. Besides, everybody was aware of the Captagon industry. They are a drug cartel.

And nobody interfered because the UN and the world is obsessed with Israel. They are preoccupied. And all this went unnoticed. So the Syrians are saying, until here and stop. If we got rid of Assad after 54 years, you're not turning my country into Afghanistan. And I don't want the Iranian influence, the influence of the Islamic regime in Iran, in my country anymore. Especially that Hezbollah

that claimed wanting to liberate the poor Palestinians, went and helped Assad, killed Syrians, starved Syrian children in Madaya, calling them Daesh children, so the Syrians do not believe. They don't buy into this narrative anymore. And I really hope that that prevails, that understanding in the Middle East, that one, it's not worth messing with Israel. Two, the Iranian regime, Hezbollah, are only going to bring you destruction. And three, that desire to...

Put a difficult and bloodied past behind you and look at the bigger picture and rebuild. It's not easy. There are immense challenges, but definitely opportunities in Syria as well. I want to pivot with you to talk about what's happening in Lebanon. As we record this podcast, there is a ceasefire in effect between Israel and Hezbollah.

It comes after what I think we should call the third Lebanon war, although no one is calling it that. The total destruction of Hezbollah's leadership, the astonishing Pager attack, the destruction of Hezbollah's military assets along the border. By the way, I went up just last week to a military base in northern Israel where the army had put on

An astonishing exhibit of weapons confiscated from Hezbollah. Every other house in the villages in southern Lebanon was being used as an arms depot. It's terrifying that Hezbollah was preparing for an invasion of Israel. It assembled a full-scale invasion force along Israel's borders.

And it doesn't bear thinking what would have happened if they had actually coordinated with Hamas in a Pinsir movement on October 7th. But anyway, the ceasefire now says this. Israel has 60 days to withdraw from southern Lebanon.

In that time, it is supposed to report on any existing Hezbollah infrastructure to the Americans. The Americans are meant to pass it on to the Lebanese army. The Lebanese army are meant to dismantle Hezbollah's military infrastructure. And Israel reserves the right to act and enforce the destruction of Hezbollah's military infrastructure if that is not done. I think Israel has learned its lesson from the total failure of UN peacekeepers recently.

And Hezbollah built this entire invasion force right under their noses and in plain sight of them. But anyway, what the ceasefire says is it not only gives the Lebanese people a chance to take their country back from Hezbollah, it mandates them to do so.

The ceasefire requires the Lebanese armed forces, in coordination with the Americans and with the useless UN peacekeepers, to disarm Hezbollah south of the Litani River, as they were meant to do under Resolution 1701 from 2006. Israel has given the Lebanese people an opportunity to take their country back, and the ceasefire mandates that they take their country back from Hezbollah. And I wonder, will they?

Absolutely not, unfortunately. The Lebanese want to get rid of Hezbollah. But immediately after signing the ceasefire, Hezbollah officials said on many TV channels, they won't disarm, make us. So I'm afraid maybe the Israelis will have to make them. I mean, just on this point before we move on, here's the ultimate tragedy, right?

of international diplomats who are saying that the war must end with a ceasefire and the ceasefire must take the form of Resolution 1701 that requires the dismantling of Hezbollah. Hang on. First of all, you're calling for the implementation of a solution that was meant to be put in place 18 years ago. Let's have a look at the reasons why it wasn't put in place 18 years ago. And that's because dismantling Hezbollah south of the Litani River means the Lebanese army

will forcibly disarm another Lebanese militia against its will. And we have to be honest and say that the implementation of Resolution 1701 means a Lebanese civil war. It means one Lebanese armed group, the armed forces, taking on another Lebanese militia. And I struggle to see how that happens. The Israelis did...

The hardest part, they've beaten Hezbollah, they humiliated Hezbollah in Lebanon. Now, the Lebanese are yet to take their country back. If they are incapable of doing so, they might have to request the assistance of the U.S. All this is on the table now. Hezbollah still was bluffing because they know they are weakened and humiliated.

especially after what happened in Syria. Nobody saw that coming. So their supply chain is disrupted. The Lebanese don't want another civil war. And they've admitted they don't have an ability to smuggle weapons through Syria anymore. That's been choked off. And yet they want disarm. So the Lebanese are trying to avoid another civil war. And maybe some of the listeners are aware of the bloody civil war that destroyed Lebanon for more than two decades. Yes.

But how would you like Hezbollah to disarm if this is the challenge they're telling you? Make us. So I don't think that at the end of the ceasefire, a peace agreement will emerge. Israel might have to finish Hezbollah if necessary.

Let's wait and see. But in general, the Lebanese, there are many delegations who went to Washington, D.C., who are requesting pressure on Hezbollah, on Iran, instead of soft diplomacy because it doesn't work. It doesn't work. Well, what does this mean for the ceasefire then? If we're saying that the ceasefire requires one Lebanese armed force to dismantle another Lebanese armed force, and that's not going to happen because Hezbollah...

on its knees, having lost its eyes and fingers, is still saying, make me. What does that mean for the ceasefire and Israel's ability to withdraw from southern Lebanon if the Lebanese aren't going to dismantle Hezbollah? UNIFIL's not going to dismantle Hezbollah. Are we going to have to continue the work? I think so. Oh, bugger.

It is sad that the world is not joining forces to help Israel in its mission because Israel is doing the entire globe a favor by weakening the so-called axis of resistance, resisting modernity and our Western values.

Why is the world watching? I don't know. Maybe they are assisting Israel under the table. Maybe the new American administration will help. I think I know why. I think I know why. I think the West is happy for Israel to do its dirty work for it because they know that Israel will. Because they know that push comes to shove.

Israel will destroy Saddam Hussein's nuclear reactor. Push comes to shove, they destroyed Assad's nuclear reactor. Push comes to shove, they stopped jihadists from getting their hands on Assad's chemical weapons and they abducted Eichmann from Argentina and rescued the hostages from Entebbe. All things that the United Nations condemned, of course, because these are serious violations of the international order. But they know that push comes to shove, the Israelis are going to do what they have to do to keep themselves safe.

helping the rest of the West. And so why get your hands dirty in helping them or supporting them when you know that the Israelis are going to do the dirty work keeping you safe and you can issue a stern condemnation or silence, but they're going to do it anyway. So why get your hands dirty? That's my sense of why the West likes to hang Israel out to dry a little bit. Definitely. And it reflects cowardice. You owe the people in the region to try and help.

Israel, if you don't care about the Israelis, help the Lebanese. Because this is the scenario we're facing. The Lebanese army will have to forcefully disarm Hezbollah. And Hezbollah is saying, make us. Now, the new Secretary General, the one who's still alive, promised to distribute Secretary General of Hezbollah.

promised after the ceasefire... About as much a supporter of terrorism as the Secretary General of the United Nations. Oh, thank you for the clarification. Promised a lot of US dollars here and there and compensations for the destruction, for the displacement, for this, for that. I don't know how he's going to pay them, especially as the tap was closed, no more kept on going.

no more arms, I don't know how they will sustain their people. I predict that we will witness

A schism. We will witness a war within Hezbollah because people started complaining. When is my money coming? People are cold. Schools are closed. People are mutilated. People need treatment. It is a very, very sad situation. And it's all on Hezbollah because they continue provoking Israel for over...

11 months and the world did not give Israel a golden star for showing restraint for opting for a diplomatic solution unlike what they've done in Gaza. The world had its chance to rescue the Lebanese and the world was indifferent. Interesting. So you think that actually as a result of Israel doing the dirty work of fighting Hezbollah which the Lebanese army didn't want to do the UN didn't want to do no one wanted to do because they're happy to let the Israelis do the dirty work as a result of all of that

And choking off Hezbollah's financial lifeline, its weapons shipments, you'll see the residual organization basically crumbling under the financial pressures of running an organization that's been cut off from its supply lines and its money. At the end of the day, you want to feed your children. They're unable to do that. You want a roof.

They are so weak. I do believe that this organization will collapse because of internal bickering, because people are starting to complain. And I don't think the new and tough secretary general of Hezbollah has any solutions in hand. On my way to Israel on the 19th of December, I was reading on the plane a report saying that Iran is shutting down schools. They can't afford electricity.

You cannot afford electricity, yet you want to destroy Israel, the West, and the USA. Give me a

Outrageous are things they're willing to expend energy on. Rowan, I want to get your take on the astonishing beeper attack that I've been saying is not only the most precise attack in military history, it's the most precise attack in the military future. Surgical is a grim way to put it. An attack that caused thousands of personal devices to

to explode simultaneously, designed so that you have to press two buttons and hold it up to your face in order to read it so that the blast radius would take out only the person reading the message, sold to Hezbollah through a series of straw companies. And the reason I want to flag this up now is that there has been a lot of talk about Mossad's decision, unprecedented, I think, to give an interview to 60 Minutes in the United States.

talking about this attack. And let's take a listen, and then I'll tell you why I want to discuss this. A short clip. The aim, it wasn't killing Hezbollah terrorist. If he just dead, so he's dead. But if you wounded, you have to take him to the hospital, take care of him. You need to invest money in efforts. And those people without hands and eyes are living proof walking in Lebanon of don't mess with us. They are walking proof of our superiority all around the Middle East.

Mutilated Hezbollah fighters walking embodiments of the message, don't mess with Israel. Tell me what the psychological impact has been of the BIPA attack, what some people are calling Operation Grim BIPA in Lebanon. I can tell you that everybody in Lebanon watched that episode of 60 Minutes. They were shocked, shocked at the stupidity of Hezbollah. You want to destroy a country,

thinking you are equal or you might be able to take them down and the mistakes you committed are unbelievable and the way it was done, executed, because we have video footage the beeper operation killed only Hezbollah operators they tried to avoid killing their children and their wives as was said in this episode

So this was, this is why I call it surgical. Everybody was talking about what Israel was doing in Gaza. This is collective punishment. So this time it was so accurate and the world still complained. But the

Lebanese saw that you should not mess with the Israelis. We were telling you stop provoking them. But it also sent a very positive message to the Lebanese who are not involved with Hezbollah. This war wasn't between Israel and Lebanon. It was between Israel and Hezbollah to the point where they literally tried to only damage or eliminate those who are involved in actual terror activity.

When the Lebanese see what happened to those who lost their fingers, their eyes, they felt a lot of sympathy because the initial reactions were like, no, no, no, schadenfreude, you shouldn't express that, this is so sad.

You're saying the original reaction was people were gleeful and then felt guilty that they were feeling gleeful. The original reaction, some people thought, yes, especially the Syrians. Remember what you've done to our children when you starved them. Remember that you helped Assad against us? The Syrians, the Lebanese were sympathetic, thinking, no, this is not the time to express schadenfreude because look at what happened to them.

But it is because of Hezbollah that the Lebanese said, you know what, you deserve it. Because they went on TV channels saying, we will do this to you. How dare you express schadenfreude. We are superior. We will destroy you. You're saying Hezbollah was threatening Lebanese civilians who were expressing schadenfreude. Or saying, it's because of you. It's your fault. Why did, like we told you many times, stop provoking the Israelis.

And because Hezbollah started threatening the Lebanese, the Lebanese said, you know what? Maybe you deserve it. You asked for it. It's on you. Help me understand what you think the thinking was behind the decision to go public with this interview on 60 Minutes. I was asked on Friday afternoon on a panel discussion on Israeli TV. They bring me on to talk about how this is perceived in the international media. They said, do you think it was the right decision to reveal this?

And I said, you know, I really don't know who the intended audience was of 60 Minutes. I don't think it was the American audience at home. No, this is why I told you that everybody in Lebanon watched it. How did they react?

They said enough. This is not your business. Warfare is not your business. Speaking to Hezbollah, it's enough. What more do you want happening in Lebanon for you to admit that you're losers? And these are politicians, academics, journalists, news anchors, name it, saying it's enough. So you think the effect of the 60 Minutes interview was to further... To embarrass Hezbollah.

Because if the Mossad is monitoring the tone within Lebanon, Hezbollah is talking about their victory, how they humiliated the Israelis. And the rest of the Lebanese are thinking, guys, you're detached from reality.

And this came in the perfect timing to punch them one more time in the face. Like, stop, stop. You both, like we created. This is pathetic, like drop it already. Exactly. You are pathetic, guys. Stop it. So this, I think, strengthens the other Lebanese, the other political parties that are saying it's enough. Disarm. And this sends a message to Hezbollah. See what we've done to you? And there was like they slipped a beautiful message there.

We already used the pages. We moved on to the next stage. So the Mossad is saying, we are ready. You haven't seen it all yet. So if you don't want to disarm,

You're going to see the rest of it. Because, of course, there isn't a person in Israel who doesn't want peace with Lebanon. And we look across the border and don't really understand why there is still a conflict because there's no territorial dispute. Again, going back to what I said earlier, things would have looked very different in 1948 if the Christians of Lebanon had thrown their lot in with the Jews rather than with Arab nationalism. But that was their mistake. Yeah.

And yet, there is a question of how you empower the voices inside Lebanon that are willing to bravely say, like other countries that have embraced the Abraham Accords, that it's time to put this chapter behind us and move towards peace with Israel. And you're saying part of empowering the voices, if not of peace, then at least of non-aggression and neutrality, is by...

humiliating, embarrassing, and dare I say, emasculating the terrorists who dragged Lebanon into the third Lebanon war. Elon, your viewers don't watch what's happening in Lebanon. This is why we bring you on so you can tell us. Lebanese journalists, filmmakers, professionals, politicians are talking about joining the Abraham Accords.

TV they're no longer afraid of being assassinated by Hezbollah the death of Nasrallah was colossal that changed the history in our region it destroyed the spirit of the acts of resistance when I visited Israel in the summer everybody was saying I hope we get rid of Khamenei I thought what do you mean he is senile maybe he's not

But Nasrallah is the biggest player. He is the spirit and it was crushed. And now people are talking about joining the Abraham Accords. They're not calling for Lebanon's neutrality. They would like to cooperate to learn from the Israeli experience. This is why I make videos and tell them

Meet my Druze friend, meet my Muslim friend in the IDF, meet this Bedouin doctor, meet this, meet that, women. Everybody's accepted, respected and contributing and this is why Israel is strong. Because everybody is working to build a nation instead of destroying others, other nations.

And the Lebanese realized that there's a lot to learn from the Israelis because they look at least on social media and they see that the Israelis are equal citizens regardless whether they're Jews, Christians, Muslims, Jews. Even if Israel is a Jewish state, the Jews proved fit to govern.

Unlike other players in the region. This is the only, Israel is the only successful model in the region. It would definitely be an extraordinary twist of events if Sinoise's barbaric invasion of October 7th ended up paving the way to peace between Israel and Lebanon. I think that world leaders have let us down. I feel personally betrayed by international diplomats and their failure of vision and courage

when they say that the war in Lebanon should end with a ceasefire and try to drag us back to an October 6th reality that they know means terrorist armies mobilizing on our borders because they know there is no effective mechanism to dismantle Hezbollah if Israel isn't going to do it itself.

And they seem to have totally normalized something that is abnormal, which is the lack of normal relations between Israel and its neighbors. As if it's a basic law of physics that Israel doesn't have basic diplomatic relations with its neighbors and that a war should end with a ceasefire, which means just freezing in place the status quo ante. And the message that I've been making to try to give world leaders a kick up the backside is, and it helps, the wordplay helps,

that this war should end with peace, not a piece of paper. And I'm wondering what you think I can be doing as an Israeli citizen, not an official position, not affiliated with the government, just a citizen who loves my country and wants peace for it, to better communicate that message to our neighbors across the border, that our hands are outstretched in peace. And what I can do maybe to empower and help

Those who are willing to extend another hand in peace and say, yes, we should be more ambitious than world leaders. This war should not end with a piece of paper. It should end with peace. Invite Lebanese and Syrians living abroad to your podcast. You can do it online, even if they cannot. Come to Israel. Start by that and you'll be surprised that you'll find plenty who are willing to talk to you. Speak to them. Address the people in Lebanon and Syria.

I already said this to the president yesterday, to the Israeli president. Address the people. Before coming to Israel, I told the Syrians, my following on TikTok, what questions do you have to the Israeli public? And some asked me,

to ask them, "Do you think the Syrians are like you, normal human beings? Or do you perceive us all as barbaric savages?" Unbelievable! Or, "Why do you plan on taking our countries? Why do you want great Israel? What is the plan? What are you going to do, kill all of us? What on earth?"

There are misconceptions in Israel where people think that the Lebanese and the Syrians are like the Gazans. We all attend UNRWA schools. No, not at all.

And the proof is, I've never seen a video, and I challenge Arabs as well when they tell me we're all alike. No, we're not. Give me one video of a Syrian woman who was told that her son was killed and she went like a maniac to rejoice on the street. This doesn't exist outside the Palestinian culture and the supporters of Hezbollah because it's against human nature. In Lebanon, another example to show you the difference between the Lebanese and the Gazans or the situation.

between the two places last week or the week before. A warehouse belonging to the Lebanese university was used to store weapons for Hezbollah. And as soon as the university learned about this, they said that the locks were broken

They called the Lebanese army and everything was confiscated. And the Lebanese university issued many statements saying we have nothing to do with it and we are very concerned for the safety of our students. Now imagine in Gaza. Imagine that you don't particularly like Hamas and you wanted to report that there is a rocket launcher now in your backyard. Who can you report to? A terror organization is in charge in Gaza.

Gaza and this can never be allowed again. Now, every Israeli social media

I thought it was useless and a waste of time. Social media gives each one of us a platform for free. Address the people there and tell them, share with them your vision for our future in the region. Ramon, there's a sense in Israel that we're willing to talk, but people don't actually want to listen to us. Or at minimum, they would be afraid. Do you think there are many Syrians and Lebanese in the diaspora who would be...

feel safe and comfortable appearing on a podcast with not just in Israel, your former government spokesman? Or is there still a fear barrier that they wouldn't overcome just yet? You will be surprised. Start paving the way. Asha, I'm talking to my producer here. Asha, let's make a note. We're going to do some podcasts with Syrians and Lebanese in the diaspora. I'll connect you with some people. And I would like to add one last thing.

It's funny you say that the world accepted the status quo and you are disappointed. I'm disappointed as well. And in Europe, when I'm at a conference, if an academic or even a politician says, this is our vision for the coming years, you know, it's realistic. We're not going to solve. It's not like the Middle East problem. And I always raise my hand. I always interrupt and I say, not funny, not funny. You

You think it's impossible to solve the Middle East conflict back where I come from. It costs people their lives. It's not funny. We have a moral obligation to try and solve this issue where I come from for my people. And when I say my people, I mean the Israelis and the Lebanese and the Syrians. We deserve better.

The Iranians deserve better. The Yemenites deserve better. The Iraqis deserve better. We have a moral obligation to end this nightmare. Yeah. And we do deserve better. We deserve better than an international order that takes it for granted that Israel and its neighbors are almost fated to live in permanent conflict. And we have to get beyond that. Rowan, just before we wrap up, I want your take. You've been here since December 19th.

Yes. How many Houthi sirens have woken you up? How many Houthi ballistic missiles have woken you up in the middle of the night from sirens? We landed and immediately we heard a siren. We had to run and hide already at the airport. At the airport? At the airport. As soon as we landed. And every night at 2 a.m., 3 a.m., 4 a.m., the Houthis are playing. And that...

Because of the Houthis, a million Israelis have to run down to shelters to take their children in blankets, in their pajamas, sometimes without the glasses. It is unbelievable.

The Houthis also disrupt global trade, don't care about the Israelis. How about a solution that would prevent them from disrupting world economy? Right, which is why I call them the Houthi pirates, because it's important to emphasize that they are not only launching ballistic missiles at Israel, they're also attacking international shipping. But just circling back, you said before, you know, Hezbollah, Syria, we're not like the Houthis, they're crazy.

Why do you think they're crazy? I mean, what is Israelis? I think in the last year have thought of the Houthi attacks as almost an amusing or entertaining nuisance because it was like Yemen. Where the hell did that come from? Who are these cartoonish villains, these primitive jihadists in the desert? So why do you call them crazy?

Exactly, because they are cartoonish villains. When I watch their propaganda songs, when I watch their statements... They're fabulously camp propaganda songs. Unbelievable. It's cheesy, to say the least. And their statements are ridiculous. They think they have the power to take down the West. Unbelievable. But I also like the way they behave when they are in full action.

They remind me of the villains or strange creatures in The Lord of the Rings. Yesterday I was watching and I thought, they have nothing to lose. They're the orcs. Exactly. They're not like Hezbollah members are serious ideologues. If they invade Israel, they are incapable of doing so. But they would never stop to rape anybody. They are very well trained, serious, nasty ideologues.

Right, because the lesson we learned from October 7th is we can never allow ourselves to underestimate or talk down our enemies sometimes.

You have to judge them by their capabilities. And the Houthi pirates are armed like a military with ballistic missiles. And there are so many. You can't underestimate them just as, you know, cut, chewing, whatever. No, but there are so many and they have nothing to lose.

So they don't really care. So what do we do about them? I mean, how do we make them stop firing missiles at us and at ships? That's all we want. We need somebody to tell them to stop. Maybe when Iran is on its knees, the Islamic Republic of Iran is on its knees. Because long live a free Iran. Yes.

Yes, absolutely. Amen to that. So it's going to have to come from the Islamic Republic. Someone has to tell them to stop because they have nothing to lose. And that's why in Israel you're hearing voices saying, after the Saudis and the Emiratis tried bombing the Houthis and it didn't work, we cannot try the same strategy. They keep popping. They keep popping up. It's going to have to come from taking the fight to the Islamic Republic of Iran. And it looks like,

extraordinary and tragic turn of events in the Middle East in the last year is careening towards a showdown between Israel and an Islamic Republic of Iran that has now lost the proxy armies that it built to defend it. Hamas, Hezbollah, the Assad regime.

And the Houthis as well are taking a serious pounding from Israel. Rohan Osman, this has been so much fun catching up with you. Promise me that next time you're in Israel, we'll do another episode. We want to do more of these episodes with repeat guests whose brains we enjoy picking. Promised. Let's celebrate bigger news next time. Deal. Let's see which terrorist army will fall by the next time you're here. It's a good luck charm. Rohan Osman, thank you for coming on State of a Nation.

And that brings us to the end of today's episode of State of a Nation with Rowan Osman. As I said at the start of the episode, these episodes are also being produced in Spanish thanks to AI dubbing software by our partner Linguana. So if you want to pass on this podcast to Spanish-speaking friends, you can search for Israel Estado de Una Nación. You can see the old episode with Rowan there, which is one of the most wildly popular episodes.

As always, if you enjoy these episodes in English or Spanish or whatever language, please do subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Give us a like and a follow on social media platforms. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram. We're everywhere because we're trying to get the message out and different narrative about a new Middle East that is possible without the low expectations of world leaders who have let us down. These wars have to end with peace, not a piece of paper. I'm Elon Levy, and thanks for joining us.