Tsunami of Antisemitism | Israel’s Special Envoy for Combatting Antisemitism Michal Cotler-Wunsh
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This strain of anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism or the denial of Israel's right to exist, you need not be a Jew to be the target of. You need just stand up for human rights in their original intent. And that has been enabled by democratic governments, administrations, entities, institutions, agencies, organizations that have allowed

the hijacking and the weaponization of human rights, the demonization and the delegitimization and double standards of the state of Israel, not just a problem for us, collapsing the entire infrastructure that was hijacked and weaponized.

Hello and welcome to State of the Nation, I'm Elon Vivi. October 7th triggered a wave, an explosion of anti-Semitism around the world, making attacks on Jews around the diaspora the eighth front of the Iranian regime's regional war against Israel. That's why it was so important for me to sit down with Michal Kotlawunsch. She is a former member of Knesset and Israel's special envoy for combating anti-Semitism.

Together, we talk about what the true meaning is of "Never Again." We talk about how Jews around the world are on the front lines of their country's fight to remain liberal and democratic. And we ask why the Iranian regime wants to kill her dad.

Join me beyond the headlines and between the lines. Michal Kotlawund, welcome to State of a Nation.

Thank you for having me on, Elon. I'm glad to have you here. We've been trying to make this work for a while, and it just so happens that you're coming on the podcast soon after news broke that Canadian authorities foiled an attempted assassination attempt by the Iranian regime against your father, law professor Owen Kotlin. First of all, I'm glad he's okay. Me too. Tell us, who is your father, Owen Kotlin? Why would the Iranian regime want to kill him?

So I just want to add, just before I explain who he is, the importance of understanding that his entire life's work has been dedicated to human rights and to giving voice to the voiceless, to essentially fighting for the freedom of thousands of people around the world.

And you're right, the assassination attempt that was foiled and was actually published, that occurred about a month ago, just a little over a month ago, is part and parcel of actually 24-hour-a-day police protection that he's been under since October the 7th, when he's in Montreal.

And when I say that, when I say that to Canadians, the understanding that this possibly the greatest human rights warrior in Canada's history, that fought for the freedom of thousands of people around the world is essentially under house arrest in his own home in Montreal, Canada, and is not free to leave the house when he would like to leave, certainly without, you would not believe, but seven black suburbans that take him everywhere that he goes, whether it's the hospital or a haircut.

It is what should be a devastating moment that sounds or rings all the sirens for all Canadians. As you said, thankfully he's okay.

It is part and parcel of a much larger tsunami of anti-Semitism that we have seen around the world. And in this case, Iran or the Islamic Republic of Iran, so the certain specific regime at the moment in Iran that abducts and tortures and executes the people of Iran, that of course is responsible for all of the

terror proxies around the world and that continues its pursuit of ballistic and nuclear capabilities, that Islamic regime in Iran, you'd say, why would, what would they care about this former justice minister and human rights activist, except that he's very heavily involved in having listed or attempting to list the RGC in Canada as a terror organization, as what it is.

And therefore, it is that Islamic regime in Iran that we have seen more and more and more cases of global sort of attempts to remove who it is that the regime would like removed, that this should be seen as part and parcel of and not just as a single case.

I myself have only just started to connect the dots in recent months about the threat that the Iranian regime poses to Western countries, not to Israel in terms of destabilizing them from within. Former British Home Secretary, Sawala Bravman, sat in the chair that you're sitting in and told us here on State of the Nation about the threat

organized crime gangs that the Iranian regime uses. The British police have foiled kill and kidnap orders on British soil by the Iranian regime. I was just in Britain. I briefed members of parliament. One of them pulled out a device from his pocket. I said, what is that? He said, it's a panic button. I said, why do you have a panic button? He said, because I'm on the Iranian regime sanctions list.

And I had never realized as a British citizen that MPs are carrying panic buttons because a foreign regime could target them. And so it's really disturbing to think that the Iranian regime is trying to kill not only its own dissidents, but foreign nationals in their own countries. But I want to backtrack a second.

Why is your father under permanent police protection since October 7th in the first place? So the intersection, of course, with what we have seen as an explosion of the mainstreaming of anti-Semitism in response to the October 7th massacre. Meaning when you and you just mentioned what I believe is an existential threat that anti-Semitism is just a predictor for,

or a very reliable sign for, as we've seen in thousands of years of history and memory, the understanding that anti-Semitism is the most reliable sign for what threatens and is a major threat to humanity, to freedom, and to the dignity of difference, as the late Rabbi Sachs very, very aptly warned and forewarned in his last book.

including morality, the understanding that what we're facing now, including with the Islamic regime in Iran, intersects with the October 7th massacre, of which but one of the Islamic regime's proxies perpetrated, being Hamas in that case.

And on October 8th, another one of its genocidal terror proxies, Hezbollah, joined in this multi-front attack on the state of Israel. That is not something that we can sort of gloss over anymore and see each event as a standalone event. It is a part of what I call the unconventional war for public opinion or the eighth front that has been raging for decades. Now, it hijacked

and weaponized the international institutions. And as a lawyer, I can tell you, having tracked what it is that happened in the international institutions, including or beginning with the 1975 Zionism as Racism Resolution, which we remember now that we marked 49 years, Patrick Moynihan, the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., understanding then the reality of today. Michal, we're getting carried away. I want to understand why your father was under police protection since the 7th. What happened to Trugada that the Canadian authorities, you know,

sometimes appear to be sticking their heads in the sand about the nature of extremism in Canada. I want to tell you about some experiences I had in Canada as well, but why would a former Canadian justice minister need...

police protection. What was the trigger? Because the normalization of anti-Semitism that we saw on the streets, including on Canadian streets, on campuses, including Canadian campuses, enabled or emboldened those elements of the Islamic regime, dormant cells, if you will, living in Montreal, Canada, to actually be able to embolden

or not just embolden them, but to be able to carry out their intent. Yes, to assassinate the former justice minister of Canada, who is very heavily involved with listing the IRGC as a terror entity, who also happens to be a human rights champion and a Jew in Montreal, Canada. And the understanding of what we have seen as part and parcel of what I have called already the tsunami of anti-Semitism.

that in response to the worst attack of Jews, war crimes, crimes against humanity, perpetrated on October the 7th, we see Jews attacked around the world. In response to the worst attack of Jews, that is that moment of reckoning that, for me, should have called to action democratic countries, democratic governments, international institutions. You mentioned Canada's current administration as well.

The false moral equivalence that democratic countries, including Canada's, created between the genocidal

barbaric savages that perpetrated the atrocities of October 7th. And I say over and over again, 10-7 like 9-11 was the attack of barbarism on civilization. But that's not the way it went down. The immediate response, well, a little bit of pity for a day or two, but the immediate response was false moral equivalence between that, genocidal terror entities of a murderous Islamic regime in Iran,

and the democratic country that defends itself from that intent to annihilate it, from that genocidal intent. And my father is just one of the many individuals, Jews around the world, and actually non-Jews, because this strain of anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism, or the denial of Israel's right to exist, you need not be a Jew to be the target of. You need just stand up for human rights in their original intent. And that has been enabled by democratic governments.

governments, administrations, entities, institutions, agencies, organizations that have allowed the hijacking and the weaponization of human rights for the demonization and the delegitimization and double standards of the state of Israel, not just a problem for us, collapsing the entire infrastructure that was hijacked and weaponized. And again, it's a single case and it's a case study.

That should be alarming to all Canadians and to all who cherish freedom and humanity. But it is just a single case and it's time that we connect the dots and see this as a raging eighth front of war. And that's a really critical point that I try to emphasize when I speak to foreign audiences, that just as Israel is fighting on the front lines of humanity here in the Middle East, the Jewish communities of Western countries are fighting on the front lines here.

of the cause to keep those countries liberal, democratic, healthy, sane, and that the way to fight back against the wave of hatred against Israel

that is importing political violence into these countries, real political violence, is not to humor the protesters and say, well, maybe you have a point. Maybe Israel is really evil after all. It's to stamp it out, make it clear what side you are on. And that's by standing with Israel against the forces of hatred. You are standing up for Canada. You are standing up for the U.S. You are standing up for...

The Netherlands I was just at as well, but by the way, it's taken for granted that Israel is committing genocide. The situation there is truly, truly appalling. And therefore, the fight for Israel is about standing up for other Western countries and not just standing up for Israel. Now, you've spoken at length. I want to try to unpack some of these issues, so there's no need to run straight ahead.

about the connection that we're seeing between anti-Zionism, the hatred of the State of Israel, anti-Semitism, the attacks that we're seeing on Jews around the world, which is the eighth front of this Eighth Front War,

And you do this in your capacity as Israel's special envoy for anti-Semitism, or rather for combating anti-Semitism. The anti-Semitism Tsar, we could say. Otherwise, I'm doing very well if it's for anti-Semitism. Good KPIs. Israel's special envoy for combating anti-Semitism, a position you assumed just shortly before the war. So first of all, what does that mean that you are the special envoy for anti-Semitism? What does your work involve for combating anti-Semitism?

So to make very clear, I'm one of about 35 special envoys for combating anti-Semitism appointed all over the world. Most Israelis don't know that this role exists.

And I fill my role. Not that Israel has 35 envoys. No, no. Different countries have. United States, Canada, European governments, South American countries. Australia has one. I think I met her just now in Australia. Exactly right. Exactly right. And the understanding that Israel joined a little bit late in the game. I'm Israel's second special envoy. My predecessor, you may know, is Noah Tishbein.

but that I fill this role still in a voluntary capacity. And as you said, I was appointed about three weeks before October the 7th. And so the voluntary capacity and nature of the voluntary capacity just sort of, for me, is a manifestation of the lack of understanding that this is just...

the manifestation of this eighth front of war, which we'll talk about a little bit more. Indeed, what it means or what it has meant up until now is that I have been on more airplanes, just like you, and in more cities and on more campuses and met with more legislators and more media than in my entire life. Since October the 7th, I basically left

My very best friend, Sanshiva, who was killed on October the 7th down south. What happened? If we can digress a second. Absolutely. Our ezering, like many of our heroes, we were in shul, as you remember, it was Shabbat, it was Simchat Torah, those of us that either were dancing at the Novo Peace Festival or dancing with the Torah. Most of us were in bed at 6.30 in the morning. So 6.29 we were in bed and awakened, but those of us...

that were then in the army and many of the heroes that ran basically into the fire. It's still an untold story, the magnitude of it. I remind us that 140% of those that were called up on that day showed up. 140%. I often say when I speak to audiences, if 140% of us show up to this multi-front war in the way that the heroes on October 7th and since October the 7th has shown up, then we've got this, right? 140%, and Ari Azering was one of those,

who was called up, who ran down south and basically said to his younger sister, tell mom and dad that I'm going down south, I won't make it to synagogue this morning, and was killed a few hours after in battle, heroically, as many, many other heroes were killed. And we were informed that Motsesha, that Saturday night, that he was killed.

And I actually left his Shiva knowing that this is the only war front that I know how to fight. So I didn't yet know precisely what it was that I would do in the United States, but I did know that the tsunami of anti-Semitism would come soon thereafter. So in my capacity as Israel's special envoy for combating anti-Semitism,

I felt it was very important that I be there, not just to speak to legislators and to decision makers and so on about what it was that should be ringing the sirens there, but also to be there for the community that would be all of a sudden faced with the shock

of what could have been anticipated, in my view, as this tsunami of anti-Semitism that hit immediately thereafter. So not only the anti-Semitism that fueled the atrocities of October 7th, but anti-Semitism that would fuel the responses of silence, right? Me too, unless you're a Jew, of denial that began on October the 7th, even while those barbaric savages live streamed what they perpetrated, denial began. That was, to me, one of the most devastating, because whereas it took decades for Holocaust denial to...

Denial of 10-7 began on 10-7. I remember soon after the attacks, the decision was made within a few weeks to screen to journalists the 47 minutes of atrocity footage.

And I gave a press conference as the government spokesman back then and said, in response to a Holocaust denial-like phenomenon evolving in real time, we are going to show the evidence of the atrocities. And Mark Grego, who was my superior at the prime minister's office, gave me a slap on the wrist and says, Holocaust denial-like phenomenon? Don't you think you're going a little bit too far? I said, Mark, you are not seeing what is happening on social media now. They are denying...

and then later projecting onto Israel, right? The atrocities in real time. But anyway, I digress now memory lane. And in addition to denial, right? Justification, right? Judith Butler, who I studied in law school, rape as armed resistance. I'm so sorry. That's right. And the understanding that then not just silence and denial and justification, but the attack of Jews, the literal attack of Jews. And if I were there at the time with your conversation with Mark Regev, I would have said,

It's not about what it is that happened in the Holocaust. Obviously, we do have a state, we do have sovereignty, and we do have an IDF. And never again for us means never again are we going to wait for somebody to come and save us. So, of course, the magnitude of the atrocities was not the same. Hang on, hang on. You just said something interesting that I want to unpack. Because we've been saying never again, never again, never again is now. And that phrase never again means something very different to different people.

Around the world, the never again is often taken as never again can we allow a horror like the Holocaust to be perpetrated or never again can we as a society, right, the Germans, for example, perpetrate such horrors. And Israelis would often say never again will we allow such horrors to be perpetrated against us. But you just put a different take on it. So I want to understand what you mean by never again. So I'll say the following. First of all, in a hearing that we held in the UN called Never Again is now one month after October the 7th.

I spoke about all of the never agains and the different meaning for never again. Never again for us, the Jewish people, and never again for the international community, because we have to be very clear. Never again is a prospective commitment. Never again in the future, right? We can't prevent the past. In order to be able to actually live up to never again in the future, we have to understand what it is that happened in the past,

identify the current or this sort of threat in the present so that we can prevent right the recurrence of atrocities in the future now October 7th was the clear failure of never again but never again was never meant for just Jews right never again to anyone when you understand that the international institutions including the UN and all of its agencies all of its committees all of that

infrastructure was created to ensure that never again to anyone, then you have to be able to understand what it was that happened that allowed the Holocaust to be perpetrated. And that's where I mentioned before the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition is so important.

Because in fact, we live in a world where, again and again, there's a genocide ongoing right now in Sudan as we sit here and speak. There are genocides in other parts of the world, and there have been genocides in other parts of the world. Real genocides. Real genocides. A word that has meaning. We'll talk a little bit about that. Not anymore, it doesn't. That Orwellian inversion of fact and law, you know, that appropriated genocide too. The understanding, and this is really important to understand, that the mechanism that enabled...

the atrocities of the Holocaust, too terrible to imagine, but not too terrible to have happened, is the mechanism we need to always be able to identify. And that mechanism is in the IRA, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of anti-Semitism. It's what singles it out as such an important definition. And let's park that thought for a moment. I'll just say what the mechanism is. Well, I want to unpack that, but I just want to go back to what you were saying now about October 7th being the failure

of the promise of never again, because that is a really jarring and haunting thought. It's a failure on the Israeli side that when we say never again, never again will we be defenseless, never again will we be helpless. The mechanisms that we, the Jewish people, had established to protect us from that sort of genocidal violence collapsed. They collapsed on October 7th.

And as well, internationally, the concept of never again. Never again? You allowed, through UN-funded schools, the jihadi ideology committed to a Nazi-like hatred of the Jewish people to flourish in Canadian, American, British taxpayer-funded schools? That's also a horrific betrayal of never again. And we need to learn those lessons in Israel, how we...

not underestimate our enemies and internationally as well in holding to account holding to account the officials who allowed this virulent anti-semitism to flourish under the scenes but under the surface and i wonder then as israel's special envoy for anti-semitism you're a kind of diplomat essentially um

So, you know, I come at this from, as I said, a very intense legal background as a former legislator that founded actually an interparliamentary task force to combat online anti-Semitism and more importantly as a human rights activist. And so when I was able to address these issues, I don't think that diplomat is what any of my colleagues certainly would view me as. And thankfully, I have been appointed for a role. Good, I hope you're undiplomatic.

I hope you're undiplomatic. And I haven't been appointed to a diplomatic role. So, you know, in many ways, I am not an ambassador. I am, in a voluntary capacity, Israel's special envoy for combating anti-Semitism. I just want to go back to the mechanism. And within that, when you speak to, I want to unpack that, but this issue is really important as well, the anti-Semitism that fueled October 7th. Do you find that in your conversations with international partners, with diplomats, that they understand that?

the anti-Semitism in Hamas's ideology within the Palestinian movement writ large, or is there still complete denialism about the ideology that they are funding and fueling and fermenting? So you've just answered your question, actually, in the latter part of your statement, because not only do they not understand it, they fund it and fuel it, right? And that's where I go back to understanding the

critical imperative of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition. Okay, tell me what is the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism? And I'll say why it's critically important.

If we understand antisemitism as what it is, a shape-shifting, ever-mutating virus that evolves or mutates because antisemitism didn't die in Auschwitz, it just mutated, right? So if we understand that and we understand that antisemitism evolves by latching on to the guiding social construct of each time,

religion, science, and the secular religion of our times, human rights, then we understand that this mutation of anti-Semitism too needs to be identified. Now, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, the result of a very long democratic process, includes 11 examples that enables to identify all strains, all existing strains, by the way, devastatingly, I will say, as I just said, because it's a thousands of year old strain

lethal virus that mutates over time, likely there will be another strain of what we call anti-Semitism. Today, we have 11 strains identified in the IRA and the mechanism that I spoke about before. So hang on, what is the definition? It's a whole page definition that includes 11 examples, but I would like to point out the mechanism that's a part of the IRA that's missing from all other definitions that have been offered.

And the importance of that mechanism is a little bit what we were speaking about before. Because dehumanization and delegitimization and double standards, actually Natan Sharansky's three Ds that are part and parcel of the IRA working definition of anti-Semitism, that is the mechanism that enables atrocities too terrible to imagine but not too terrible to happen again and again, not never again, precisely the likes of which occurred on October the 7th.

And if you think of those three Ds, dehumanization, you are not a human being. And therefore, you could rip down the poster of Kfir Bibas because that's not a human baby in the streets of New York City or Washington or Berlin. Dehumanization, delegitimization,

is not criticism of the state of Israel. Delegitimization denies Israel's very right to exist in any borders. That's what we saw on October the 7th. It wasn't about 1967 or any borders of Israel. It was about Israel's very existence and double standards.

The understanding of double standards in the international institutions, but also in university spaces, also in city spaces, the enforcement of any principle or rule selectively or double standards in the application of any principles, including holistic

holding Israel to a completely, I'm going to say not just double standard, non-existent standard in the way that it prosecutes war, double standards undermine or collapse the entire infrastructure. If you apply rules selectively, it's no longer worth the paper it's written on. So the mechanism that is part and parcel of the IRA is critical, those three Ds. And the understanding that IRA was not just the result of a long democratic process randomly.

the recognition that it was international law and its institutions and its mechanisms and its principles, including the ICC and the ICJ and UNRWA and all of them we can find, all of the different manifestations. But the understanding that those institutions, mechanisms, values, principles were hijacked and weaponized was what informed the IRA working definition of anti-Semitism and its formulation. Why? Because I mentioned before 1975, Zionism is racism, the UN resolution.

which I began to say Patrick Moynihan at the time, the U.S. ambassador to the U.N., understood very well that if Zionism is racism, the 1975 U.N. resolution, and Nazism is racism, then it's not long before Zionism will be deemed to be Nazism. And here we are in 2024.

The understanding that Zionism is racism was the first sort of opening shot in that unconventional war, continued in 2001, and that's what launched the process for the creation of the IRA. The 2001 Durban Conference Against Racism was the next Orwellian use or hijacking of international institutions and its mechanisms and its organizations

to accuse Israel of the second blood libel. Israel is an apartheid state. 2001 Durban Conference Against Racism turned into an anti-Semitic hate fest. Actually, we discussed my father. It was the first time I ever saw my father actually speechless. He came back from Durban and realized alongside many other human rights champions like Bob Bernstein, the founder of Human Rights Watch, and many others, that it was their life's work

that was hijacked and weaponized to demonize and delegitimize and apply double standards to the proverbial Jew among the nations, that is the State of Israel. To seat the State of Israel, Dreyfus, in the dock of the accused.

And that was when they began creating the definition of anti-Semitism that would be able to account and identify the abuse of human rights to demonize and delegitimize implied double standards in the state of Israel. And we have seen it come full circle in response to the 2023 October 7th massacre because the accusation of Israel of genocide

is by far the most Orwellian, I'm going to say not just inversion but perversion of fact and of law. The fact that the State of Israel was accused in none other than the International Court of Justice by none other than South Africa using the Convention for the Prevention and the Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

And you should know, genocide, a term coined by Raphael Lemkin, whose entire family was annihilated in Auschwitz, who dedicated his life to that convention for the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide, using that convention to accuse the state of Israel, to seat it, Dreyfus, on the dock of the accused, accuse it of perpetrating genocide, even as the state of Israel, the Jew among the nations,

is defending itself from genocidal intent, as you mentioned before, that like Mein Kampf is actually openly declared to its annihilation in the murder of Jews. And yet, Michal, I return to my original question. What is the IRA definition? The IRA definition, and everybody is invited and we can link to it here, has a neat little box of a certain perception of Jews. But as I said, it's not enough to read what's in the neat little box because it includes blood libel across the ages. But these are...

Because I understand the importance of the IRA definition, and I do think that the 11 examples that are listed

do a rather good job of summarizing where modern antisemitism lies. But the definition itself speaks of a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as a hostility and that can in certain contexts, which is a key point, manifest itself through any one of those 11 definitions. And so I wonder from an enforcement perspective, when you are going to other countries and lobbying them to adopt the IRA definition,

how useful it is when it is itself quite vague. And even those examples, they're not definitive. The definition says that those examples could, in certain contexts, be reflective of a certain perception. And that doesn't seem like a particularly watertight definition to me. So I'll be very, very clear. Look...

The thing with legal definitions is they're never watertight. They're always up to interpretation, right? It's a non-legally binding working definition. That's what the IRA was intended to be, so that you can identify and hopefully combat the various strains. But the goal of it was never to silence speech, if you will.

The goal of it was to be able to say that is anti-Semitism. Now I know what it is that I'm observing, what I'm seeing. And because there are, as we said, 11 examples with 11 strains, whether it's blaming the individual Jew for what the nation state of the Jewish people does as a collective or whether it's a blood libel of the Middle Ages, right, of accusing Jews of being Christ killers.

whatever it is that anti-Semitism has morphed into being is not something that you want to be able to use to silence speech. It is something that you want to be able to identify and combat comprehensively. That was the intent of the Iranians. And yet there is pushback. And yet there is pushback. So I want to say about the pushback.

Two things I want to say. First of all, I said that it's the result, the single definition that there's a result of a long, very long democratic process. The second thing that's important that people know is that it's already been adopted by more than 40 countries. What it hasn't been is implemented by more than 40 countries. It's been adopted by the UK. Actually, it was one of the first. Most of the UK universities have adopted the either working definition of antisemitism. The problem is with implementation.

And that's what we have seen throughout the year, not just with regards to Aira. Universities are not applying their regular protest policies with regards to the protest that we've seen on campus. And I know that many students on campus say all they want is universities to enforce the rules they have. But get this question of the definition of anti-Semitism. There is pushback.

And there are alternative definitions. I mean, there is the Jerusalem definition. Can you tell me what that is and why people might endorse that over IRA? Very clearly. And why we oppose it? I'll tell you why. It's called the Jerusalem. It sounds good. We like Jerusalem. It sounds amazing. So I'll tell you.

I'll tell you a few things. First of all, the people opposing or the reason for opposition of the IRA is because it precisely identifies, including the demonization, the de-legitimization of double standards towards the state of Israel. It precisely allows to identify this modern mainstream mutated, if you will, strain of anti-Semitism. We've called it anti-Zionism or the denial of Israel's right to exist.

And that is precisely the reason for the pushback against it. Because, you know, people want to be able to say, and they often do, including to me, but criticism of the state of Israel, well, surely that's not criticism. Surely that's not anti-Semitism. In fact, the IRS stipulates precisely that. Criticism of the state of Israel, like criticism of any other country, of course is not anti-Semitism. People just need to meet some Israelis and understand. We're plenty critical.

What is anti-Semitism is delegitimization, the denial of Israel's very right to exist. Now, that is not to be found in any of the alternate definitions, not a result of long democratic processes. It's sort of akin to you and I sort of saying, we don't like the definition of plant. We're going to come up with our own definition. So in brief, the reason we have these alternative definitions of anti-Semitism is because they don't like the fact that IRA includes...

challenging Israel's right to exist as a manifestation of anti-Semitism. They want to completely separate

the denial of the Jewish people's right to continue exercising self-determination in a state that already exists as being part of anti-Semitism. That's it. I'm going to say it's all three Ds. What they do not like and none of the other definitions, not the nexus, not the Jerusalem Declaration. By the way, the nexus is referred to in the White House strategy that was rolled out before October the 7th. What is the nexus? So the nexus also does not include the demonization and the delegitimization and the double standards against Judaism.

the Jewish nation state. Without those three Ds, the nexus cannot possibly identify. - What is the nexus? - It's another definition that they pulled out of a basement, a group of academics that came up with an alternate definition because they did not like or approve

of the fact that Israel was part and parcel of the definition of anti-Semitism, severing, if you will, this strain of anti-Semitism that we've called anti-Zionism or the denial of Israel's right to exist from just the targeting of Jews around the world. But they cannot be severed. And the point of whether it is legislators that I meet

or whether it is police chiefs, or whether it is university presidents, including the three that appeared in Congress shortly after I met with them, or whether it's media or Jewish communities around the world. This war that is raging with Israel on the front lines is not just, as we saw in the responses to it, is not just attacking the state of Israel. It's attacking Jews and all who support Israel around the world,

At this very, very time, it's one war. At the very same time, it is one war that is raging that

that demonizes and delegitimizes and applies double standards to the state of Israel. So without those three Ds, and only the IRA working definition has it, you can't actually identify and combat what we have seen that has normalized or mainstreamed, by the way, actually the older types of antisemitism. So they all intersect. Oh, they've all come up. The mind comes with antisemitism. We were speaking about Canada. I did a tour of Canada with Stand With Us Canada, went

coast to coast, sea to sea, as they say on Canadian, not from the river to the sea, from the sea to sea. Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal. And in Toronto, I asked them what sort of anti-Semitism they experience on campus. And the students, one student said, oh, I get called a dirty Jew. Yep.

I said, has anyone else? And someone else put their hand up. I said, where is this coming from? Is this coming from the Muslim students or from the white Canadians? Oh, it's the white Canadians. Oh, yeah. The white woke Canadians who think they're on the progressive left who are calling them dirty too. But anyway, Michal, I want to put the anti-Semitism issue.

To one side, just because I don't want everyone to think that being special envoy for anti-Semitism is the only thing you do. Sorry, special envoy for combating anti-Semitism. Trying. Is the only thing you do or the only thing you've done because you have a rich career in public life. And one of the things that you've been focusing on for many years before you were a lawmaker as well was the hostage issue. Because we speak now of the October 7th hostage crisis.

But the October 7th hostage crisis began long before October 7th. It started in 2014 with the killing and abduction of Hadar Goldin and Oran Shaul, Israeli soldiers, during a war with Hamas. In fact, Hadar Goldin was killed during a UN-mandated, US-negotiated, EU-facilitated ceasefire.

humanitarian ceasefire. And of course, Avera Mengistu and Hisham Asayid, two Israeli citizens who, for some reason, I still don't understand, crossed into the Gaza Strip, and they've been held there for the last 10 years in Mengistu's case. Now, you've actually worked closely with the Golden family, and Leah Golden sat in the chair where you are now and shared her heartbreaking story of how she felt abandoned and betrayed by

Actually, ironically, now people accuse the government of abandoning the hostages in order to prioritize the fight against Hamas. And she feels that she was abandoned because of a decision not to try to topple Hamas with her son's body being held in Gaza. But I digress. Tell me about your work with the Golden Family and how fighting for their right to bury their son shaped suddenly how you saw the hostage crisis after October 7th.

So, it's actually probably the most immediate catalyst at the time that led me to running for Knesset. And it intersects directly with the conversation we've just had about the Eighth Front. Tell us just briefly, you were in the Knesset when, with whom? 2020. I ran with then Bogi Alon, the formulation of blue and white that was made up of three parties.

Long story short, we're still in what is in many ways a continuum of everything that we saw in those five election campaigns. But most importantly, for me, the understanding that my knowledge and experience, including with international law and human rights,

intersected with the plight for the return of Hadar Golden, and you're 100% right, he was killed and abducted shortly after an internationally brokered humanitarian ceasefire came into effect, violated by Hamas.

And he and Oron Shaul, another deceased soldier, and two civilians who, by the way, are both emotionally unwell, and that's why they wandered into Gaza, Hisham Asaid and Avera Mangistu, have been held in what is a more than 10-year standing violation of international law.

We have to understand it's called a standing violation in the language of international law because every second of every minute of every hour of every day of every week of every month is another violation of international law when it is hostages that you have taken.

So the understanding that there was this international law case and cause, we called it the golden case and cause, and we brought it to the Secretary General of the UN, Antonio Guterres, and the Red Cross, who never visited any of the four and, of course, never demanded to see them. Totally useless. And the understanding that it was international institutions and, more importantly, countries who are themselves committed to upholding international law by which they were providing humanitarian aid.

Normally, currently the director general of the Red Cross is Mr. Kremble, who beforehand was the director general of UNRWA. It's a rotating door. But the understanding is much deeper than that, Ilan. The understanding, and I very often say to people, they say to me, think Hamas or Hezbollah or Iran, they don't care about international humanitarian law. That is true.

But the countries that fund those agencies, including UNRWA and the Red Cross, the countries that actually provide humanitarian aid because of their commitment to international humanitarian law, they're democratic countries that are actually violating international humanitarian law by supplying what we called humanitarian for humanitarian. Humanitarian aid

to entities they know trample humanitarian law. Hang on. Backtrack because that's a lot to absorb. You're saying that foreign countries are violating international law by sending humanitarian aid to Gaza? Absolutely, because they're not sending humanitarian aid. We know that for 10 years they were sending money to Hamas to build the terror tunnels and infrastructure. You didn't

need to be privy to secret information to understand what we saw every single Friday at the Black Arrow Memorial, where we stood, where we convened for, and still convene, for the last 10 plus years. And what happened on Fridays for those who weren't there?

For those who weren't there, what you would witness was what we called the sort of slight violations with balloons and kites and the burning down of fields and what we call the trickling of attacks on what is not the Gaza envelope, but the Israel envelope. That's actually one of Simcha Gualtin's very important contributions. It's

It's not Otef Aza, it's Otef Israel. And now we see the very same thing happening up north. These are not tricklings. It's not just balloons and kites that were burning down fields. They were violations of international law. Which is why it's critical that Israel is now saying the equation has changed. We're not going to allow Hezbollah to smuggle weapons here, move towards the border there, shoot a rocket there and not respond and absorb it. We are going to retaliate.

forcefully and enforce the ceasefire because we're not going to rely on useless international promises. And those diplomats, by the way, you're not a diplomat, but if you're speaking to these diplomats, they have blood on their hands. Yes, they do. We have paid in blood and treasure because of the failure of the international community to enforce its own resolutions that are supposed to keep these terrorists away from our borders. And so basically...

This issue, the issue, the standing issue of the 10 plus year standing violation of international law that has held four of the 101 for not 424 days, but for more than 10 years is part and parcel precisely of what has enabled the tsunami of antisemitism. Meaning the continued ignoring, silence, inaction, impunity that has been given by democratic countries

to enable the withholding of what is basic international humanitarian law, including Resolution 2474 that we brought before the UN, including special hearings that we brought before the UN, that those countries have a responsibility to uphold. You cannot just continue empowering or emboldening terror proxies of a murderous Islamic regime in Iran

to dictate the equations and the reality on the ground. But that is precisely what the international community has done for more than 10 years. This is an important point that I want to just linger on for a moment because hopefully this war is going to draw down to its long overdue conclusion with our enemies pushed away from our borders and all the hostages home, please God.

And the question will come about how we fortify Israel's security and how we make the case for Israel on the world stage. And it is absolutely critical that anyone who advocates for Israel, all these citizen spokespeople, as we call it, not allow their governments to continue providing resources that will end up in the pockets and the tunnels of terrorist organizations. It is impossible, impossible, impossible

to envisage any sort of peaceful reconstruction in the Gaza Strip if Hamas or any other terror organization is still in power. And we must be absolutely insistent that any concrete, any fuel, any electricity that makes its way into terrorist infrastructure in the Gaza Strip makes Western donor states complicit with terrorists

by giving them material support and that must not be allowed to pass or we'll end up in the same situation we were before. So I'll just say, I mean, the paradigm that collapsed on October the 7th has multi-level sort of ruins and I would argue that we're still hostage to the paradigm that collapsed on October the 7th. I say that with devastation and I'll explain why. Anti-Semitism as a looking glass actually shows that those democratic countries are still enabling

those entities and the ideology that fueled October the 7th to continue, I'll explain again, the 7,000 plus barbaric savages that perpetrated October the 7th, they were educated by UNRWA curriculum. But there are Palestinian children being educated by UNRWA curriculum now. By the way, this was apropos your work about combating antisemitism. I got it right this time, right?

I recently visited the British Parliament. I've been speaking with lawmakers, media, and one point that struck with everyone, and you can see the moment they say, huh, I hadn't thought about that before. I said, we know UNRWA staff took part in October 7th. Now, we know that not all the October 7th terrorists were UNRWA staff, but all of them

were UNRWA graduates. Because if UNRWA teaches most of the children in Gaza, it means most of the October 7th monsters went to Canadian, British, Dutch, delete as appropriate, taxpayer-funded schools. And that is a damning indictment of your foreign policy. And this is a point that Israel needs to be making more forcefully.

Because you're right, Onur is not only teaching in Gaza, they're teaching in the West Bank, they're teaching in East Jerusalem, which is absolutely something we need to fix. But I digress.

So you don't digress. You actually bring us sort of the understanding that UNRWA, look, UNRWA was born in sin. I say that because UNRWA is the single refugee agency that actually services only one group of refugees, whereas all other refugees around the world have another refugee agency that has far less budget than UNRWA.

Of course, because there's UNRWA and then the UN Refugee Agency. What makes the case even more absurd is that UN used to have other refugee agencies that dealt with other populations, like UNCRA, which dealt with Korean refugees. And there were no Korean refugees because they resettled them. Oh, why?

They didn't wait for the resolution of the original conflict. Because ANRA is the single refugee agency that passes down refugee status from generation to generation to generation to generation. According to that, you and I too are refugees. I am the granddaughter of one of 850,000 refugees from Arab lands and Iran, in my case, Iraq, according to which I'm a refugee. Of course, I am not a refugee.

And we go back to double standards. You don't want to go back to Iraq? You know I get messages sometimes telling me go back to Iraq? That's right, I get messages like that too. Not going to happen. I get sent back to Poland usually. The understanding that double standards, and I go back to the three Ds, the understanding that double standards have actually been what has enabled this consistent, systematic hijacking and weaponization of international law principles, collapsing them, basically rendering the paper they're written on useless, useless.

for everybody, forget Israel, forget Jews, I say all the time, you know, you need not be a Jew to understand, and antisemitism was never a problem of Jews. It's a problem of antisemites and of the places and spaces that allow them to infect them.

But you need not be a Jew or need not be an Israeli to understand that if the entire infrastructure created to ensure that never again collapses, that's a problem for everybody, especially in a world that we know, and we said before, again and again and again has been committed and is committed as we speak right now. So if we go back to understanding, and Anra is just a single case. Now I'll say something. Look.

We're sitting in the 76-year-old miracle that is the state of Israel, and I've been alive for almost two-thirds of its life. I remember all kinds of milestone moments of this country's life as a little girl that was alive for the peace treaty with Egypt and many other sort of moments of opportunity that we have today.

This is one of the greatest challenges that the state of Israel and the Jewish people have faced as a people, but it is also one of the greatest moments of opportunity that we have faced as a country and as a people. And I'll say, for thousands of years of Jewish history, we could not have even understood Rabbi Soloveitchik's differentiation between the covenant of fate and the covenant of destiny.

We have always been bound together by the covenant of fate. Anti-Semitism, they hate us. We have to stick together. Anti-Semitism actually is not what I would like to be using as we create the vision for the next 76 years. It's the covenant of destiny that we have the opportunity. I'm going to say the responsibility as a people that has experienced October 7th

and everything in the aftermath of October the 7th. So it's one more where one side of the same coin, Jews around the world have the opportunity to actually realize that covenant of destiny, meaning leaning into our identity, remembering the story of the Jewish people, reclaiming the identity. We've mentioned some of the words like Zionist, like indigenous. We returned to

to this nation state in 1948 as what is a prototypical indigenous people after thousands of years of exile and persecution in a country that is committed to equality. That's just Israel's Declaration of Independence. Why do I say prototypical indigenous? Indigeneity has meaning, and it was stolen from us. It doesn't mean there's not another indigenous people, by the way. But I know I am a member of an indigenous people, which means

I'm not white. It's not even a relevant social construct that you can apply on my story. So if we remember our story and reclaim our identity, including as Zionists, as an indigenous people, and if we renew that covenant, as I mentioned, renewing the covenant not just of fate but of destiny, then I think that this is one of the most important milestone moments in Jewish history.

And in that sense, you know, I have a great deal of hope. Again, I always quote the late Rabbi Sachs, who differentiated hope from optimism, saying the following, that optimism is a very passive virtue, whereas hope is a very active one. And it takes not very much courage to be an optimist, but a great deal of courage to have hope. Of course, reminding us that hope has kept us alive for thousands of years and that it's the anthem of the State of Israel, HaTikvah.

And on that note, this has been a fascinating conversation. And I have learned so much, not least that you too are an Iraqi Jew and will have to exchange to beat recipes. And former lone soldier. And former lone soldier. We'll put our exchange out to beat recipes and put them in the podcast notes. Michal, how can people follow you and your work as Israel's special envoy for combating anti-Semitism? Did I get it right this time? Absolutely. Hit the nail on the head.

So I'm very easy to find. It's just Kotler Wunsch across the social media sort of outlets. Not a typical Iraqi Jewish, then? Yes, exactly. No, no, no. And I do intend to actually take this to the next level and create what the state of Israel now has to do in order to be able to combat this East Front, and that is to create a national strategy for combating anti-Semitism of the state of Israel, as many countries have, except that in our case, as Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people.

it has to have an international component of identifying and combating anti-Semitism. I think that alongside my, as I said, colleagues around the world, we have sort of accepted these global guidelines and referenced IRA, the international working definition. But following this work and following the work that you do,

I think that each and every individual who watches this has a very important role as boots on the ground in this very important moment, I'm going to say, of challenge and opportunity for the Jewish people, for the state of Israel, and for humanity at large. Fantastic. I look forward to reading and unpacking your Israeli strategy for combating anti-Semitism. We'll have to have another discussion to follow up and unpack that. Michal Kotler-Wunsch, Israel's special envoy for combating anti-Semitism. Thank you, Eli. Thank you for coming on State of the Nation. Thank you, thank you.

And that brings us to the end of today's episode of State of a Nation with Israel's special envoy for combating anti-Semitism, former member of Knesset, Michal Kotlawonch. As always, if you enjoy these episodes and find them interesting and educational, please like and subscribe on YouTube, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Or why not all three? Wherever you get your podcasts, give us a like, subscribe, share this link with a friend who you think will

Enjoy learning more beyond the headlines and between the lines with us here on the podcast. I'm Elon Levy, and thanks for joining us.