Brazil and Ukraine: Unexpected Connections
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Brazil has the third largest Ukrainian community in the Americas. Over half a million Brazilians have Ukrainian origins, with most of them descendants of 19th century labor migrants. In this episode, we navigate through the unexpected links between the two countries and analyze why relations between Brazil and Ukraine are difficult today. You're listening to the Ukraine World Podcast, and it's serious thinking in dark times.

My name is Volodymyr Yarmolko, I'm a Ukrainian philosopher, chief editor of Ukraine World and president of Pan-Ukraine. This episode is a recording of a conversation at the Pan-Ukraine Ukraine World event, which took place in September 2024. This was a conversation with Brazilian journalists Sergio Uc and Flavia Tavares and with Brazilian filmmaker of Ukrainian origins Guto Pashko.

Before we start, let me remind you that Ukraine World is brought to you by Internet Ukraine, one of Ukraine's largest media NGOs. You can support our work at patreon.com/UkraineWorld. You can also support our volunteer trips to the war zones at PayPal, Ukraine.Resisting, Gmail.com. You can find these links in the description of this episode. This episode is produced in partnership with the Ukrainian Institute, the country's major public and cultural diplomacy institution.

So we're very glad to continue our conversations at PEN Ukraine and Ukraine World. And now we have the amazing people from Brazil who did a courageous trip to Ukraine and a very long trip. And we always, when we welcome people from the outside, we applaud the courage and solidarity of these people who are coming. So please give our guests a huge round of applause.

This is the series of meetings which we are doing in solidarity with Ukraine, supported by the International Renaissance Foundation. I'm very glad to introduce the guest today, Flavia Tavares. Sorry for making mistakes if I do. She is a Brazilian journalist and editor-in-chief of Meio.

and a journalist with more than 20 years of career who worked for the newspaper Estacio, for Epoca magazine, for CNN Brazil, who was editor-in-chief of the site, and who is covering politics and human rights. Flavia, thank you so much for being here.

Sergio Uch, journalist since many, many years, who worked for print media, for radio, for main TV stations in Brazil, who is also senior European correspondent since 2011, based in London and covering lots of very important events.

Globally, including the wars, including the Russian aggression to Ukraine, on Ukraine, who was covering also Syria and Iraq. And I was told it's the seventh time in Ukraine for you, is it correct? Yeah. Yeah, thank you so much. And, for example, also in 2016 he directed the independent short documentary called "The Boy Who Made a Museum". Please welcome. And Guto Pashko,

who has Ukrainian origin, who is Brazilian-Ukrainian. Can I say that? Yeah? And we are very, very glad to meet him, who began his artistic career as an actor and who has been working in the audiovisual market for over 25 years, who produced over 60 audiovisual works, including films and TV series. And among these films, there are five documentaries that portray the theme of Ukrainian immigration in Brazil.

and one of the films is called "Ivan" about the life story of a Ukrainian immigrant during the Second World War. Thank you so much, and Guto will be speaking to us in Ukrainian, I guess. So please also welcome Anna Wojchenko, who will help us to translate into English. And we are very, very pleased to have the Brazilian ambassador here in our place. Thank you so much, Your Excellency, for being here.

So we make this conversation in English and part in Ukrainian because we are also recording right now the podcast for Ukraine World.

And frankly speaking for us, it's a very interesting thing to go far away of this, you know, just the idea of explaining Ukraine to the foreign audience. Because we had here authors from India. We had here authors from South Africa. We had here, of course, authors from Britain or Poland or other countries. So all over the world.

And you've just returned from a very, very long and difficult trip to Kharkiv and to Izyum. This is the trip that actually we are also making quite regularly. But tell me first, what is your motivation to come to Ukraine? What came to your mind when you first grasped the idea?

how you decided to go because I guess that looking from Brazil, Ukraine looks like a country which is bombarded every day and every night. Well, actually this is true, but as you might see that it's quite possible to continue to live here. Flavia, let's start with you. What did you think first when you decided, yeah, it's a good idea to come to Ukraine?

Hello everyone. First of all, thank you for having me and for bringing me here. I think it suits to start with me with this question because I'm the only first timer in Ukraine. And so I really didn't know what to expect.

It's also my first time in a country who is a war zone, so I'm not a war correspondent or anything like that. I cannot lie that I am, although I've covered other sorts of human rights,

human tragedies, but never war. So I have to be honest about that. And that's why with this background I was probably much more afraid than my fellow Brazilian friends, because I'm also a mother and my daughter, beautiful daughter, is seven years old. And so I thought for a second,

If I was younger, if I didn't have her, probably I would have said yes without thinking, but because of her, I thought for a second. And as I told our friends here in PEN, yes, I thought that I would be in constant danger. I was afraid I would be in constant danger, and it certainly surprised me that...

especially in Kyiv, that life goes on in such a beautiful way. But also, I think it's kind of dangerous in certain ways because you almost forget there is a war. I thought the city was so beautiful and so alive and I was so ready to go sightseeing and to go to enjoy the nightlife and all.

Nightlife during the curfew is a very interesting experience. But for a second there you just forget what's going on. That's why this trip to Izium was really important, I think, in the whole schedule because in Kyiv you can really relax. At least it seems for us.

We arrived just a few hours after the attack of Monday morning. And so you had a difficult morning, but we missed it, thankfully. And so I don't know how you Ukrainians will deal with it to show the world that Kyiv is alive and kicking, as the old song, but...

but you are still in war. It's a dubious situation for us who come from abroad. And just to finish, I know I went too long and I'm sorry, but just to close it up, so going to Isium, that changed a bit my perspective. I didn't feel endangered in any way, but it was real. It was real. And it was... We had a very...

emotional encounter in Kamianka. And it really touched me deeply. With our friend Serhii. You met our friend Serhii. As wonderful as Serhii is, it was his mother for me. And she grabbed my hand as soon as she saw me. It was really strong. So it's good to be reminded both of the alive and

triumphant life in Kyiv and what it looks like for many people still under very very difficult situation. For our listeners I will just explain for those who are here and who will listen to us that Kamienka is a village, the next village after Izum, it's practically absolutely destroyed

There were very, very heavy fights on this road from Izum to Slovyansk. And we first met Serhiy...

I think it was late 2022, just a couple of months after the liberation of the Kharkiv region, and we just went to the village thinking that there is nobody here. We just occasionally met them. And there were, I think, five people in the whole village who were living there, which counted thousands before the war.

Let me ask Sergio, because you have a different perspective, of course, a little bit. You're coming to Ukraine already for the seventh time. We know little about Brazil, of course. I hope that in the audience there are people who know much more than me. I've never been to Brazil, but what I can guess is that the way how the war, the Russian aggression on Ukraine is seen in Brazil...

is completely different compared to the way how we perceive it in Ukrainians. I guess that lots of this, of course, that in Brazil the discourse about reshaping the world, about, you know, countering the, let's say, North American imperialism, it's quite strong and therefore it is difficult to

go through with our story and our story is of course not that it's United States that helps us wage the war, it's rather that United States do not help us in the way how we wanted to but that it is really genuine Ukrainian fight and it will continue regardless of the way will our Western partners help us and not only Western or not. Tell me how

in which environment you are trying to tell the Ukrainian story in Brazil and what are probably the major obstacles to the way how you try to tell it? Well, thank you very much for having invited us. I love to come to Ukraine every time. As I see, I'm a Bosch lover, you know, and I like to talk to people. What Flavia said about we had like amazing people who

Sorry, we have had amazing people, specialists and important people we met in the last days. But for me, the most important people to talk to is like people, people who are not specialists in anything, people who are only people.

And I love to have this experience in Ukraine. And I would disagree with you when you say that the way that we see the war, I think you are focused on a political level, government level. So you have the ambassador here to talk about it, but I think the perception in Brazil about this war is crystal clear.

If you ask a Brazilian, a normal Brazilian, people, as I said, what's happening here, people will say there is a country invading another country. This is clear. What you mentioned, and we could go with this conversation for hours, is there are some political differences between Brazil and Ukraine.

well, the leaders of both countries, sometimes they say things about each other that are not very kind, I could say that. But the perception of Brazilian people in general is that the victim here is Ukraine. There's no way to read the situation. I do think that sometimes there are some tones of grey between the black and white. We could discuss that as well.

But the big picture here, and I think this is clear, even confirmed in some polls in Brazil, is that there's one country invading another country. And what I do as a journalist, being here in London or talking to my friends when I go to Brazil, is trying

to explain how things work in Ukraine sometimes I try to explain why Ukrainians don't understand us as you know why some people here think that Brazil is maybe pro-Russia or pro-Putin this is not true at all we may sound like like we are sometimes mainly on a political level but we are not pro invaders

We are not pro a country that is invading another country. I mean, obviously, Brazilians, Brazilian people. And if you talk about politics, governments, etc., we could go on and on and on and on. But the main message, my main answer for your question is that Brazilians know what's going on. That's very important.

Every time we talk with people from Latin America, with Argentinians, with Colombians, with many others, with Mexicans, this message is the strongest, that let's try to go beyond politics or behind politics and try to talk about human beings. And this is probably the strongest thing. Let me ask Guto.

you are Brazilian-Ukrainian and correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm not mistaken in Brazil you have the third largest Ukrainian community in all Americas, Northern and Southern and maybe the biggest in Latin America, Southern America, is it right? What does it mean? Because we probably know more about Canadian-Americans

Glory to Ukraine. Glory to the Lord.

So hello, everyone. I will speak Ukrainian because though my Ukrainian may sound somewhat old because my

-

speak ukrainian because i feel uh it's uh more uh spiritual language than my english is so uh for uh

I hope you will understand me as well. In Ukraine, I have heard that my Ukrainian language sounds like a museum language, a language from the museum, so I was told that I would be made a museum object here.

Thank you very much for inviting me and for having me here. I'm very glad to come to Ukraine because I was born in Brazil. We have a huge Ukrainian community in Brazil and the

I'm Brazilian, yes. But I didn't understand

So I am a Brazilian, of course, but I had not understood that I was a Brazilian for a long time because in my childhood I used to speak only Ukrainian. Our old neighborhood was Ukrainian speaking.

Our family was Ukrainian speaking. My childhood friends were also Ukrainian speaking. Our Ukrainian church was also Ukrainian speaking. By the way, we have in our commune, in our neighborhood, 35 Greek Catholic Ukrainian churches.

So it took me a lot of time to actually realize that I was a Brazilian, and I started to realize that when I was sent to school.

- So until I turned eight years old, I did not speak Portuguese. And it was my grandfather who spoke to me all along about Ukraine. He used to tell me his stories about Ukraine while drinking shot after shot of vodka, one shot, one story. And this is how it went.

He told me many stories about Ukraine, how it used to be in Ukraine, though my grandfather was also born in Brazil because it was my grand-grandfather who came to Brazil first.

And why? For me, it was a problem.

So I felt this a problem because when I started my career in cinema, I did not at all knew which was my history, actually, which was...

because nobody in our family had already remembered the true story which was brought from Ukraine. Only the older in our family remembered, but after they deceased, there was no traces of our true story left.

So I started making films just to find out what was my story as a Ukrainian. And as Volodymyr said, I made 64 films as a director and producer. And among them,

Among them, five were devoted to the issue of my own Ukrainian story. I wanted just to grasp our Ukrainian history. You made that movie, "Pershchiy", which tells our great history, about three emigration, when they were, why they were, how they were, who came.

So I made those five films about Ukrainian migration to Brazil. My first film from that range was devoted to the wider topic of Ukrainian migration to Brazil, to the first wave of the migration. And my fifth film was devoted actually to the story of my family.

My mother was born, was a descendant from the Lviv region, from the

Brody district and her village is called Yasenya. My mother is actually Pashko and my father was from

was a descendant of another family from also the Lviv region, but the district of Zolochiv and his native village is called Svalyava. And when I made this film about my family story, I went to Ukraine and I did all the

and I compared what I'd heard from my grandfather to what I've seen with my own eyes and saw some

coincidences and some common features in what I've heard and what I've seen. And after my returning home, I told my grandfather all about my trip to Ukraine. I

retold them all I've seen there, all I've filmed there, and asked him. He said nothing. He just took shot after shot of Vorilka.

and listened to me very closely and very attentively. And then I asked him whether he wanted to visit Ukraine too, which he absolutely refused, and I was quite astounded.

because I did not realize how could it be possible when it was him who told me all these stories about Ukraine and now he refused from the idea of visiting Ukraine and I asked him how was it possible to which he replied that he was an old man already and he was

already preparing to die, but he said that the day he dies, his soul will live in Ukraine again because Ukraine is his personal heaven. And that day was a

the day that I realized what was the idea of Ukraine, what was the genuine Ukraine in Ukrainian mindset. I think this is already the beginning of an epic novel about, well, Maria Vargas Llosa or some other great...

Gabriel Garcia Marquez will have a big amount of envy towards this story when you write it. Thank you so much. And this shows, I think this story shows actually that despite the big distance in oceans, there is so many common things between us. I will ask a few more questions to Flavia and Sergio, and then we'll move to you. So please prepare your questions.

Flavia, just coming back to this experience that you've seen people in Kyiv but also in Izum and Kamyanka, what will be the first story that you will bring back to Brazil? Like, imagine you are addressed yourself by a journalist or a friend asking you to tell a story about Ukraine. What will you tell?

So you want a spoiler from my article? Is that it? I want another epic story. It's funny because it's probably going to be different in a bar table with a drink than what will go to the paper. Not the stories itself, but maybe the order of it.

Because in my article, I'm sure going to try to encapsulate all these amazing conversations we had and this effort we saw of Ukrainian people trying to convey the message of their identity, of their national sense of the country, of the people.

And although I have many human stories to fill that narrative, it's not the one that stuck with me the most, which is the mother of Sergi. Because she had her identity really figured out. She didn't have to make any effort to try and tell it.

She was just in need of human connection and attention. And that's a universal story, you know? I'm sorry, I got emotional because maybe now that I'm speaking, saying it out loud, maybe it makes more sense to open with her in my article. I don't know, I'm not sure. But...

It's really symbolic of how we can relate to each other in so many levels, human-wise, and also have so much pride of our national identities and our culture. So that's, for me, that's the trigger to all this trip.

And if I may, I know I already spoke too much, but Guto has opened a precedent. No, I just, I want to elaborate on what Sergio said, because I'm a politics reporter.

I was going to ask you a question about politics. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, it's okay. But let me first ask just a very brief question, very human. I once asked an Argentinian journalist, Carolina Amoroso, on my podcast, she wrote a book about Ukraine and the war, and asked her, what is the thing that connects you the most, like Argentinian society and Ukrainian society? She said, the role of women.

in families and in society. You're also telling me about the Serhii's mother and I know this person and I know what exactly strikes you because there is a certain even archetypical thing in herself. Will you agree with Carolina about that? Yes. One of the things I noticed the most in Kyiv before going there

was how many women were walking around the streets with their daughters. Well, that caught my attention because of my own personal history. Of course, we tend to see things that relate to us the most, but also with their sons. But I saw so many beautiful little girls and I thought about what will be the future for them here and how

how strong they have to be. And then we met, please remind me of her name, the drone operator. I'm sorry, I'm very bad with names, but I will never forget her, but I forgot her name. She's also a mother, she's in the front line, although her job is not one of contact, but it's still front line, very dangerous and all.

And she has a daughter, and her daughter wanted to join her in the army, and she said she wouldn't let her. And she was like, the daughter is an adult, she's 28 years old, and I so related to that. And so what I'm trying to summing it up, I don't know how much of a patriarchal society Ukraine is. I asked Lessa that, and she said it's a lot,

But I'm sure that although the men, mostly men that go to the front line in the military, will have their heroic stories and their patriarchal confirmation in certain ways, the struggle that women have to go by to manage what's going on is certainly a story worth telling.

and it will probably shape next generations. And I promised to ask you a question about politics. So in Ukraine we have a perception of BRICS, that it is a kind of a coalition which is not sympathetic to Ukraine.

Not because there is Russia, but also because there is China. And there is a lot of discussion, for example, in Ukraine of the role of China. I've just came back from the front line and asking with soldiers, so the role of China here in this war is very, very ambiguous. Because technologically, we all depend on China, unfortunately.

But we have this impression that BRICS is not strong enough with Russia on this war. And Brazil and South Africa and India... Well, China is a part, right? China is playing its own game. Would you agree with this? I think we have to divide this conversation into two aspects. First of all, it's the tradition of Brazilian diplomacy. And I say that because...

Apart from BRICS, our diplomacy was built and is still very strong conviction that we don't follow anyone. We try to be our own men, to be patriarchal, but mostly our diplomatic tradition is one of

Independent and peace. It's the first thing we always will say. And to sustain that, it's very hard to take sides. Because the minute you take sides, you are not at peace anymore with the other part. So we have never been to war as a protagonist. And that's something...

We have one massacre in our story, 200 years ago. It's not even fair to call it a war. We went there and we massacred some Paraguayan people, and it's not something to be proud of at all. But anyway, what I mean is it's our tradition not to express sides right away or at all.

Having said that, since Lula, in the first round of his government, his foreign politics was always very much focused on Global South. And although having great connections with the US, with Barack Obama especially, he had a great relationship with him. And Bush, yes. He always tried to...

enlarge those connections so that we wouldn't be so dependent of the United States power, which is huge in America. It's like overwhelming and they helped our dictatorship and so it's a long history of trying not to be under their toe. And last but not least,

You might remember that Bolsonaro didn't support Ukraine either. And that's because China and Russia nowadays have a very ambiguous position in the world, ideologically speaking. They are both dictatorships, but in some ways,

weird way they have been able to convey both that they are far right and they are far left. And in Brazil we are in a political moment that we are divided in half. Our population is half right leaning to far right and half center leaning to left. Far left is this size. This bit is pro-Russia.

even though Putin is what he is. This little piece of Brazil, but it's really small, it's like 2%, 3%. They think Mother Russia, communism, it's old stuff, but it's not relevant in the public discourse. But the half that is center to the left,

Summing it up, I'm so sorry, I got carried, but summing it up, ideologically, it's very hard for people who are engaged in politics to see Putin and China, Russia and China, clearly as

for what they are right now, because of history, because of their propaganda, because of affiliations, personal affiliations and all that. And Ukraine comes in the middle of that. The invasion that is happening here comes in the middle of that, comes in the middle of...

Russia telling, speaking about NATO, and Brazilians think, oh my God, so they're pushing. Oh, no, no, but wait, the US has to protect this. It's all very confusing. It's all very filled with misinformation. And also, it's not in the center of our worries, because we are a country that has...

miserable people and political internal problems. So it's not an easy message to go through. And I'm so sorry. It's great that you started this and I will go to Sergio and I'm really sorry that I keep it so long because I promised to the audience to ask the two questions, but it's actually two questions. So Sergio, to continue what Flavia was saying,

I personally understand why in Latin America there is so much anti-US sentiment. But maybe you are overestimating it as well. Yeah, of course. But let's say in this way, the United States were also doing the coup d'etat there, and we understand that.

But there is also this feeling that Russia is always an alternative. Russia is a good alternative to the United States. And is it still there? And just to finish my question, is there an understanding that, of course, we understand that there should be kind of more equity in the world, more justice, but...

If we make a stake on such countries like Russia and China, won't we be leading into a much worse world than it is now? Yeah, that's very difficult to balance, actually. I would like to tell something about BRICS, and I promise I'll be very short. I've covered many BRICS summits, so I see this thing happening.

and I've been to South Africa, to Russia, to India to cover this. This group, it came up as a huge coincidence. Someone, an economist in the West said, "Oh, Brazil, Russia, India, China, we have nothing to do with culturally, historically, with China, with Russia, or with India,

So it was purely economic. Now it's becoming a little bit political, mainly because now it's not only the five countries anymore. Now we have Iran, we have Ethiopia, we have Emirates, we have, well, lots of countries. Now we are 11, if I'm not wrong. And this was China-making. This was China.

Brazil was, they won't say it openly, but Brazil was against it. Brazil didn't want to open the BRICS because Brazilians knew they would lose control. They would lose power. And if you see today, Brazil and South Africa and India are the only democracies in BRICS. And India less and less. Yeah, India less and less. And when you say, we say, if you see like,

That's something very interesting to notice that Brazil has consistently voted in every single resolution at the United Nations against Russia. The only resolution that Brazil didn't vote of what Ukraine wanted to was the resolution, a resolution the Human Rights Commission, if I'm not wrong, that said that both that Russian side should be investigated

by violation, possible violation of human rights. What Brazil wants? That both sides should be investigated. This is too much. I don't think this is too much. But when we say that here in Ukraine, it sounds like we are pro-Russia. You know, how you want to investigate us? Why do you want to investigate us? I know it hurts when we say that sometimes for you guys who are being invaded, who are being bombed every day.

who are losing people, but for the thing to be done properly, it's necessary. But as we ratify the Rome Statute, we are open to this as well. Yeah, yeah. Can I open the floor to the public? Sorry for keeping it too long. Thank you, dear Volodya. My name is... Let me stand up, since I'm not sure what kind of manner you prefer here, so I will stand up.

My name is Daniel Lubkiewski. I represent here the Kyiv Security Forum. We call it Ukraine's foremost platform for discussions on war and peace. So I would like first to thank Volodya for inviting me to join such a lovely conversation and to thank you very much for coming to Ukraine, for coming to Kyiv.

For us, this is more than simply a gesture of solidarity. You know, we do understand that by coming to Kyiv, by coming to Ukraine, you demonstrate something of your personal bravery and of what connects

Not only personally you with us, but also our bilateral relations. And for that I'm so impressed with your story about your dido, you know, who was drinking shot by shot and dreaming about this Ukrainian heaven. You know, it's a wonderful metaphor for, you know, for those Ukrainians who live so

so far, far away from Ukraine, but love Ukraine, remember Ukraine, and think about Ukraine in their personal fairy tale. Maybe there was no that Ukraine that he dreamt about, but the symbol, the heart that he shared with you, this pain and love, you know, it made you come here. And for me personally, it's absolutely fantastic.

Certainly, we have to discover the relationship to reopen the relationship with Brazil. Unfortunately, Brazil is a known country for Ukraine in many senses. However, a lot of people know what Brazil is about. We definitely would like to...

You mentioned BRICS, and I agree with you that we don't need to overestimate what BRICS really means. However, it expands, includes new members, and some more members may be interested to join the club. But in my personal view, we cannot underestimate Brazil.

Since we believe that one day Brazil will join the permanent council of the United Nations Security Council as the permanent member. You deserve, you have to play a leading role. And here comes a risky question, a tricky one. We don't call you to choose the sides. We don't insist to choose.

support Ukraine or we don't insist you to decide between two banks because there are no two banks. There are no two sides. There is only one side. The side is called the international law.

You have to stick to this, and that would be the answer to anyone who may raise it in your country. Because you don't need to take sides saying that we do this because we love Ukraine. We will certainly admire this, but what is really needed is that you clearly state that there is aggressor,

And this aggressor attacks Ukraine. And your votes in the United Nations certainly testify to this fact. That's true. But we would like to see more active role of Brazil in bringing back the whole international community to the international law and civilized order of rules and principles that we all stand for. And this war is about that.

Thank you. Let's take a few questions. Thank you for this very interesting and important discussion for coming to Ukraine. My name is Ivan Fechko. I am an expert of the Latin American program of Foreign Policy Council of the Ukrainian Prizm. And now we are preparing a paper about Russian influence in Latin America, because from our point of view, what we see is that Russia really spent a lot of resources

to promote their ideas, propaganda, disinformation, and you also partially mentioned this, yeah? And, for example, about this political divisions that also use different approaches for right and left audience, and there's so much different activities also, like cultural diplomacy, for example, also. And it's very interesting for us, from your perspective as professional journalist, does Russia really has so much influence

influence in Brazil and does this propaganda really works on society, on common people, as for politicians also? And we, for example, the second question, in Ukraine don't have so much resources yet to beat this maybe propaganda. Maybe you have some recommendation for us how we can still be in Brazil and beat with this propaganda machine from Russian party. Thank you. Okay, I

Hello, my name is Dmytro Shulgan from International Renaissance Foundation, which is a Ukrainian open society foundation in Ukraine. I started to learn more about Brazil since 2022 when a lot of our partners and colleagues and me myself, I was started to engage more with Latin Americans in general and Brazilians in particular as well. We felt really kind of compassion, I mean, kind of solidarity on human level. And I saw also the public opinion polls, which were like really very positive.

uh the and by the way a lot of our colleagues from brazil were saying oh 2022 kind of just wait a little bit it will be better because there will be lula in 23 he will be the president so it will be end of the awful bolsonaro there will be progressive president and brazil will be better frankly speaking there was huge disappointment from our part from ukrainians i would say huge disappointment because of all the things lula said

and all the things he's done or has not done in foreign policy towards our conflict. You said that Brazil is kind of always in peace with everyone. Come on, Brazil was the only Latin American country who participated in the two world wars.

World War I, World War II, on the side of... Actually, in World War II, even militarily, kind of sent Brazilian corps. By the way, we know it was kind of... Actually, yeah, we can go into history, like how it happened, basically because of the influence of the U.S. Bad U.S., but kind of somehow it helped to be on the right side of the story for Brazil. And by the way, now Brazil openly sided with Palestine against Israel. Two sides, but...

I think that it's rather an example of Brazil caring about something, but not really caring about anything else. And Ukraine, Russia, frankly speaking, as I understood, basically is not really interesting for Brazilian, well, president, I think, first of all, maybe not foreign policy, but president. And last point, I mean, the General Assembly resolutions, exactly, exactly. The paradox is that what was written in these resolutions?

What is written in these resolutions? How they are named? What is written? What is the demand of these resolutions? The resolutions of the General Assembly, several of them, which were passed in '22-23, said that this is aggression, openly said, confirmation, that this is Russian aggression against Ukraine. And what is demanded? Immediate withdrawal of Russian troops from all the territory of Ukraine in the internationally recognized borders. Full stop.

This is the action plan. This is the peace plan. And Lula never, never, ever, ever, ever repeated this or ever be able to repeat this. And that's why I think that he doesn't care at all of what Brazil actually voted in the General Assembly. And this, frankly speaking, undermines, in my perception, his claim for Brazil to be a real republic.

foreign policy player able to claim the membership of the Security Council. I mean, come on, let's be frank about it. I mean, I understand that... I'm talking from the perspective of understanding that we really as people share common values.

This is a huge disappointment because I hoped that Brazil would be really on the bright side, on the side of the international law, on the side of humanity. And unfortunately, this is a big disappointment about it. Let me just point something very important. We are not representatives of the Brazilian government. We are not. I am the one who questioned the president about it. I questioned him many times about this issue.

And may I disagree, he had said, he had said, Brazil, he had said clearly, not as you wished, and I completely understand your disappointment. Maybe I'll be disappointed as yourself, because he said many things that sound very pro-Russia sometimes.

But he said Brazil has condemned the invasion of another country. He said, the minister said, etc. But I know how it sounds. I understand you completely. But let's continue. There is a question of international law. And just to follow up on Danilo's question...

when we talk to our friends from South America, Latin America, we understand how important international law and unviolability of borders is for you. Because if you, I always say this to Latin American friends, if you apply the concept of Russian world to Latin America,

meaning that wherever people speak one language should be one country. Of course, it concerns rather the Spanish-speaking countries. There will be catastrophe for Latin America. So how important this argument of international law is for Brazil?

I think it's important. Flávio has said this before, Brazil has a very strong diplomatic tradition. That's something that's very good in Brazil, is diplomacy. And sometimes it's completely different from what the presidents say. You might not remember, but I was there in Moscow days before the big-scale invasion, because President Bolsonaro was there.

And Bolsonaro said to Putin, like, "We have solidarity with Russia." How did that sound? It sounds like we are okay with Russia doing whatever.

But if you see what the diplomats say, what Brazilian diplomacy does, it's different. So I know it's a contradiction, it shouldn't be like that. It should be like one voice, one thing. But unfortunately, we have this noise in the official speech. I understand your impressions about Lula. I completely understand.

But at the same time, talking to Ukrainians as much as I do, sometimes I think you guys expect that Brazil will do exactly the same of Europeans and North Americans. We won't in any moment. We might agree with them on international law, on important issues,

But we have our own tradition, and we might condemn, as it happened, we condemned the invasion of... Actually, I hate saying things as I was defending the government, because I don't want to defend any government, Brazilian, Ukrainian, Russian, whatever. But I'm giving you facts. And there is a very important fact that

Sometimes what you expect, it's not what we are able to give. I remember the first moments of this war, Ukrainians were expecting that Brazil would deliver weapons to Ukraine, would sanction Russia. I knew since the beginning, this won't happen. This won't happen at all. And I think this was one of the problems. But that's a very important question for us as well.

that sometimes Ukrainians, we are ourselves sound too utopian. And one of the goals of this meeting is to give us also the sense of reality. But there was a question about Russian propaganda. Flavia, maybe you will comment, or Guto, maybe you'll... I think there is something that brings the three questions together in a way that for us in Brazil,

in the traditional media, this war has much, much less to do with Ukraine than it has to do with NATO.

and with the battle for space in Europe, and who infringed the international law first regarding expanding NATO's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not contesting that. I'm telling you how it's perceived.

It's something different. So, for a big part of the discussion, you mentioned that Brazil sent soldiers to both wars. It's true. I could have mentioned that

You know why I didn't? It's not because I wanted to withdraw information. It's because we don't even remember. Because it's not relevant to us as a country. This connection we are making here, you have to understand, the war was huge in Brazilian media for the first months. And nowadays...

really, it's getting less and less space. Since the war in Gaza, for instance, since our presidential election in the end of 2022, wore us out. We were exhausted about news. And we stopped, we as a people, not we as journalists and intellectuals and all that, but

So you ask what you could do to fight back the Russian narrative, the Russian propaganda and all that. First of all, the influence is... The US has a much bigger one. Much bigger. We have problems with our history, but we are, how do you say, Americanophilus?

Our country is much more adept to American culture, North American culture, than any other. We listen to American music, to American media. We consume American media from the films, series, all of that. So we are much more influenced by American narrative media than Russian. Much more.

The piece of Brazil that is influenced by some of the narrative from Russia, from their propaganda, is the left. And the far right. And the far right. And it's not all of it. So Putin probably got, his machine got, that the NATO narrative would get us.

Not the identity one, not that, ah, but they speak Russian, so they must... No, NATO is going too far. That's what partially stuck with the bit of Brazil that still is not convinced. For us, NATO is not going far enough. That's the problem.

But this is some cultural and historical difference. Sorry, I forgot your name, but that explains much more about Lula's behavior than him being able or not to take sides. He doesn't see Ukraine as the underdog as he sees Palestine.

Because our history is to be underdogs for the left, you know what I mean? So still...

Although he talks big sometimes, he says he was too aggressive to Zelensky in the beginning and that was a very bad choice internally for him. Politically, it didn't go well with Brazilians. He paid for it and he had to... He didn't make amends because he's a proud politician, but he had to fall back a bit in his aggressiveness.

And now, just to finish, it's a subject that we could stay here for days. We can continue, yeah, after the official sign. Okay, but just to finish, there's something that is beginning to change. He is, after Venezuela, now, he's having to come to terms with many of his international positions.

It's not like he's going to change radically. He's a man from the old left in Brazil, and the old left in Brazil thinks of Russia with heart, not with anger, not with dislike, with the heart. But he's having to come to terms with the fact that there are people who say they are the left, and Putin doesn't even say that anymore, but...

but are dictators and bloody, you know. I don't know if that answers you. Thank you. Guto? I think that in the political world,

So I have already told that it's them who are very smart about political issues, but as a Brazilian, I can tell that both Lula and Bolsonaro are problem for Brazil, actually.

Whoever it is, he makes a problem for the whole country. And actually in Brazil there are very, not so many people that who are understanding the political issues well and they just fight about that issues. They're

severely arguing, but this doesn't mean real understanding. Yes, yes, Sam. Yes. Without Lula and without Bolsonaro. Yes, democratic.

As for me, I myself do not support either Lula or Bolsonaro. I just want Brazil to be a democratic country. I don't need Lula to be president. I need that democracy is established in Brazil.

When they say sometimes that if not Lula, it's going to be communism in Brazil, this is absolutely not true, because he was president twice, and afterwards...

Dilma Rousseff came for two more presidential terms and no communism was established, so this is not such a problem for Brazil as the society being divided into two polar parts who are fighting between themselves.

This is true that people in Brazil understand very little about the situation in Ukraine. In Ukraine, this is why the work of journalists is of so importance.

So, and the question about Ukraine. I have already mentioned that when I came first to Ukraine, I was comparing what I remembered from my grandfather and what I had seen with my own eyes and...

I was like comparing my impressions and I would like to emphasize that Ukraine is also our country. For us, Brazil and Ukrainians. But I have to say more that you might not know where my story is.

would you go next? But you should obviously know where did you come from. I made my films about Ukrainian immigration to Brazil because I wanted to know my own history and

go deeper into my own story. But it's a great pleasure for me to be here with you now, and I thank you immensely for this opportunity to be here in Ukraine with you, because I'm convinced that we are making history every day with our own efforts and our own deeds.

I am so full of impressions that I probably will make one more documentary film about my stay in Ukraine for this time. And I again, immensely thank you for this opportunity. Thank you very much.

We had an amazing conversation in three languages, and this is amazing. Thank you, Guto, Flavia and Sergio for this conversation.

Yes. And thanks a lot, Anya, for amazing translation because it was a very interesting and really difficult task. But thanks to Anya, we will have really a podcast smoothly in English. And thank you all of you. I think despite, well, we have the air alerts, but I think we can still hang out here. And if you want to ask some more questions, we can continue. Thank you a lot.

This was a podcast by Ukraine World, a multilingual media about Ukraine. My name is Volodymyr Yermolenko. I'm a Ukrainian philosopher, journalist and chief editor of Ukraine World and president of Pan-Ukraine. This episode was a recording of a conversation at the Pan-Ukraine and Ukraine World event which took place in September 2024. Our conversation with Brazilian journalists Sergio Uch and Flavia Tavares and with Brazilian filmmaker of Ukrainian origin Kuto Pashko.

Let me remind you that you can support UkraineWorld at patreon.com/UkraineWorld. You can also support our volunteer trips to the front lines at paypal.ukraine.resisting.gmail.com. Stay with us and stand with Ukraine.