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cover of episode The likelihood of Phase Two - with Amit Segal

The likelihood of Phase Two - with Amit Segal

2025/2/24
logo of podcast Call Me Back - with Dan Senor

Call Me Back - with Dan Senor

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Amit Segal: 我认为,就如同我们过去在与巴勒斯坦权力机构的谈判中所称的那样,冲突的结束,战争的结束,是无法达成一致的,因为哈马斯永远不会同意被逐出加沙,而内塔尼亚胡也永远、绝对不会同意结束战争。当前局势面临两难选择:恢复战争或继续执行协议的下一阶段。哈马斯通过宣传视频传递双重信息:展示其力量,并暗示只有通过谈判才能归还以色列人质,战争会阻止人质返回。以色列人希望优先归还人质,然后尽快、果断、彻底地恢复战争以击败哈马斯。哈马斯希望利用以色列人质作为筹码,以维持其在加沙的统治。以色列公众就何时击败哈马斯存在战术分歧,而非意识形态分歧。一部分人认为应立即采取行动,另一部分人则认为应先归还人质,然后再采取行动。以色列公众普遍认为与哈马斯无法共存,只是在如何消灭哈马斯的问题上存在分歧。阿拉伯国家的回应意在阻止特朗普关于美国接管加沙并遣散居民的提议,但其本质上与过去几十年来的做法并无不同。特朗普反对向加沙提供更多援助,因为他认为这些资金会被用于资助恐怖主义活动。Witkoff所说的第二阶段实际上是指延长协议,而非真正意义上的第二阶段谈判,因为哈马斯不可能放弃在加沙的权力。Witkoff希望延长协议,以便以色列在人质数量减少的情况下恢复战争。内塔尼亚胡将战争目标(击败哈马斯和归还人质)视为一个连续体,而非二元对立。哈马斯可能会利用各种借口,例如声称未能找到某些人质,来阻止以色列恢复战争。无论内塔尼亚胡做出多少让步,他最终都将面临两难境地:即使加沙还有人质,他也必须决定是否重返加沙。以色列政府高层官员不会公开承认以色列无法收回所有的人质这一现实。内塔尼亚胡的目标是缩小这场冲突的影响,从而能够在未来进行谈判或采取其他行动。内塔尼亚胡签署了其支持者反对的协议,并利用特朗普的言论作为借口来继续执行协议。以色列和哈马斯都不可能同意结束战争。以色列国内的争论并非关于是否要找回人质,而是关于哪种风险更大:人质的安危还是释放恐怖分子带来的长期安全风险。释放被俘的恐怖分子以换取人质可能会导致恐怖主义活动增加,并向其他敌人发出错误信号。以色列政府在人质问题上的决策受到公众舆论和人质家属的影响,难以完全按照理论原则行事。如果战争重启,以色列国防军可以取得以下四方面的进展:军队实力增强;哈马斯实力削弱;哈马斯失去外部援助;可以多方面同时进攻加沙。目前,摧毁哈马斯和归还所有以色列人质这两个主要战争目标之间存在不可调和的冲突。可以同时实现这两个目标,但不可能完全实现。必须终结在以色列边境附近盛行的死亡文化,并改变加沙、约旦河西岸和巴勒斯坦权力机构的教育体系。 Dan Senor: [对Amit Segal观点的回应和补充,以及对事件的总结和分析]

Deep Dive

Chapters
Hamas's recent actions show a paradox: they provoke Israelis through psychological warfare, yet simultaneously use hostages to incentivize Israel to continue the deal. This chapter analyzes the twofold message of Hamas's actions: showcasing their strength and emphasizing that a deal, not war, is the only way to return hostages.
  • Hamas uses propaganda videos showing Israeli hostages begging to be released to push for phase two of the deal.
  • Hamas's actions enrage Israelis, increasing pressure to end the deal and resume war.
  • Hamas believes that using Israeli hostages as a bargaining chip will force Israel to continue the deal.

Shownotes Transcript

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As phase 1 of the ceasefire and hostage deal enters its final week, the fate of phase 2 of the deal remains uncertain. While hostages’ families are urging for a continuation of the deal to bring all the remaining hostages home, parts of the Israeli government are pressing for a return to the war. 

With Mideast Envoy Steve Witkoff traveling to the region this week to push for an extension of the deal, we turned to a Call Me Back regular and leading Israeli journalist to make sense of the mixed signals we are seeing from every direction. Amit Segal is a columnist for Yediot Ahronot, and a senior political analyst for Israel’s Channel 12. 

CREDITS:

ILAN BENATAR - Producer & EditorMARTIN HUERGO - Additional EditingSTAV SLAMA - Director of Operations GABE SILVERSTEIN - Research YUVAL SEMO - Music Composer