INTENSE DEBATE: Should Trans-Children Be Allowed to Transition? Brianna Wu Vs WitsitsGetsIt
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All righty, and good afternoon, everybody. As you can probably see, I am not James. I am Bob, otherwise known as Sideshow Nav. And today, for this afternoon, we're going to kick it off

with Whitsitt and Brianna on should kids be allowed to transition. We'll start with five-minute openings on each. Brianna going first for about 60 minutes. Have open dialogue and then lessons learned. We'll have, and especially on this topic, about 30 minutes of Q&A if that's okay with you two. I love questions. All right, so get your questions ready. Listen up. With no further ado, I will turn the floor over to Brianna for your five-minute opening.

Thank you! I've got some friends over here. I appreciate that. Hi, my name is Brianna Wu. I am a software engineer. Most people know me from Gamergate. I ran for Congress. And a few months ago, I finally decided to come out and start talking about trans issues more openly.

I feel really strongly that the course we're on is a really, really destructive one. So just setting the tone today, if you're looking for the progressive line, that hardcore line, like should all kids be able to transition, I'm the wrong guest for you.

Like, I'm not gonna come here with moralism today. We're gonna talk through the science of what we know and who this is beneficial for. So I think if we are talking about children transitioning, it is really helpful to separate this into three cohorts and really two different subtypes of each cohort. And I'm gonna go through it really quickly.

So the first one is what I'm going to call the non-binary political project. You know, all these kids that decide they're halfway between things. Should they be allowed to transition? The answer to this is clearly no. There's no study I can point to that shows this helps them. There's no protocol to even identify these people. So either autistic or not autistic, I think that answer is very clearly no. The second group I want to talk about is natal females.

that want to transition to be boys. Should they be allowed to transition? I think a little bit of historical context is very helpful for this. When I transitioned 20 years ago, or the people before me transitioned,

Overwhelmingly, this was people like me. It was natal boys that wanted to be women. You can go back 3,000 years in history and you can see people like me. We were Roman priestesses that castrated ourselves and decided to go live as women. This new cohort of female to male transsexuals is actually very, very new. And I don't know if people know this. They've actually replaced us.

massive numbers. There are many many more natal females transitioning today than natal males. So if we're looking at their health care, should they be allowed to transition?

To me, this answer is also no. I don't see any danger in making them wait until they're 18. Testosterone is so powerful, as our very macho men in the audience here can show you, it will work as well at 15 as it will at 25. There's no rush to getting these natal females any help with this. Additionally, the overwhelming majority of the detransitioners, the people that transition and don't like it, are natal females.

The overwhelming bulk of it. So the autistic ones particularly have some other issues. Who is the third group here? It's the people like me. Needle males that want to grow up and be females. And this is where I do think we need a pathway for some people to be able to transition. And to be really clear here, the clinical protocol are way too low. We're medicalizing way too many of these kids. But the reality is testosterone is so powerful

If you're forcing these young boys to go through puberty, they're going to have a much harder time passing and integrating in life. I hope we can get into the psychological damage and also the plastic surgery and the contraindications you have to go through if you do delay that.

So what I'm really hoping I can have today with my esteemed co-panelist here today is not a moralized conversation, but one really rooted in healthcare policy and one that does not have like abstract political objectives as the highest principle. What we've got to be talking about here is individual patient outcomes. So thank you very much for coming.

Thank you for that opening statement. That's it. We'll turn the floor over to you now, sir, for a five-minute opening. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. So I'll be pretty blunt about my position here. Any form of a child being allowed to transition is child abuse. Even the mere possibility that a singular child would then grow up and change its mind completely eliminates any moral groundwork for claiming that they should be allowed to transition.

Obviously this position is not the more progressive and extreme one, which is that all children should be able to and it's a violation of human rights if they're not allowed to. But any sexualization of children is child abuse. And when I was a child, I wasn't talking about sex, I wasn't trying to memorize pronouns, I wasn't trying to figure out if I wanted to be what I was. I was playing with my friends outside.

And it is an atrocity that we've normalized this. So to get into more of the specifics, there is something called autogynephilia. Autogynephilia. Okay, and it is the core of what actually goes on with most of the transgenderism. So you have men dressing up as women.

And it's because they are sexually aroused at the idea of being a woman, being perceived as a woman, etc. And so that is a fetish. That is actually sexual deviancy. So to even introduce this idea to children, certainly in a public setting, is child abuse. You're teaching a child about a sexual fetish.

Okay, now that is actually the core of it. And as was pointed out, I mean, the vast majority of transgenderism is male to female. So either way, you should not be teaching children this. And I'll obviously address some of the basics most people probably know. When someone wants to detransition, but they find out that these chemicals that they've taken, all of the medicine that they've gone, God forbid, surgery that they've undergone, it's irreversible.

And oftentimes they want to commit suicide because they feel like there is no way out. And actually the suicide data is overwhelming and has been basically buried

So one of the other points I want to make kind of in the closing of the opener, I guess, is that a large motivation for pushing this is not just political, it's actually financially driven because there's an entire additional stream of revenue for doctors performing these surgeries and insurance companies that they originally did not have. And so they turned their head to anything.

open up any study that would allow for them to be able to introduce this new additional revenue. So not only are we abusing children, we're doing so so that certain companies and doctors can line their pockets for these surgeries.

So I will just bluntly say I think it is completely unacceptable across the board. It is literally child abuse. I think that any adult that sexualizes children or tries to convince them they can do this, much less gives them any of this medicine or chemicals or anything like that, even the psychological or emotional transitioning, should be a crime.

You should not be allowed to do that to children. They are innocent and you are warping their mind and putting them in a position that will allow them to be or cause them to be much more prone to suicidal thoughts. So that is my take. I have a pretty hard stance on it. I'm an absolutist. You should not be allowing children to transition at all.

All right. Thank you for those opening statements. Before I forget yet once again, we have been doing the manifold votes. So after hearing their opening statements, those who think that Brianna is going to make the most compelling arguments, if you could raise your hands, hold your hands up. Let me get a quick count on that. Hold them high so I can see them. Okay. And those who think that Witsit is going to convince you. Hold your hands high. Tough crowd. All righty. And with that, James. Really quick.

Thanks so much for that, Bob. I want to add, the reason that we're doing that is because Manifold is a sponsor of DebateCon. You can check out the link in the description box below. If you're watching at home, Manifold is the world's largest social prediction market. And you can predict at home via the link, or if you want to look it up on Manifold now with the app, you can predict who will be most persuasive in this debate. Thanks to our sponsor, Manifold. And with that, thank you very much. Bye.

And with that, the floor is all yours for 60 minutes open dialogue. I want to really get into this. Like, respectfully, I could sit here and spend two hours fact checking all those claims you made because it's just, it's so difficult. It's a fire hose, like you're saying stuff that's kind of true, but it's not really true. So I guess this is my grand question to you. What kind of discussion are we having here today?

I think if we're talking about healthcare policy, it makes the most sense to talk about

Studies, what we know, scientific labeling of things really examine these claims that we made. The overarching theme for everything you're saying seemed to be moralizing, like something straight out of the religious right or what we know the progressives are always doing. You can't say this, you can't do this. So which way would you like this to go? Do you want to talk about the science or do you want to get into your heavily moralized discussion here?

Just using the word science doesn't mean anything to me. That's just a catch-all phrase people use. We could properly define science if you would like to, but all these neo-terminology doesn't mean anything to me.

Yes, it is immoral. So, like, if you can come up with some type of quote-unquote scientific evidence that, like, raping children's okay, is that okay? Or is it just illegal because it's wrong and it's the abuse of children? Well, hold on here, buddy. You are just literally appealing to multiple scientific stats in your opening statement. She brought a suicide stat. She brought up the sexology theory of the typology with H.E.P.,

We're talking about regret rates. These are all scientific concepts. You understand, yes? I understand that you're utilizing the word science that way, and that's okay. It's not actually what science is. Oh. But if you want to use it loosely, I'm fine with that. I don't care about a semantical argument. We're talking about your arguments, my friend. These are arguments you made. Correct, yeah. And you're not addressing any of those. So you said that they're also— Let's go through it. Let's go through it. Okay. This will be beneficial for everyone.

You're saying that the vast majority of children shouldn't be allowed to transition? Yes. Okay. Let me dig into that because the way I want to do this, hand to God, look at me, everyone in the audience. If you follow the Brianna Wood playbook on this, the number of children transitioning would be reduced by anywhere from 85 to 95%. And the kids that would be transitioning, if I introduced you to these children, it would break your heart.

These are literally natal boys that by the, they're three years old and they are telling you I'm a girl. They are horrified by their body. They're shutting down. They grow up to have more emotional damage than I think you can understand if you've not actually had this child.

What, a three-year-old? It can literally be that old, yes. I have a two-year-old, and she changes her mind every five minutes. She's a spaceship one minute. Of course. No, hold on. You don't take one moment and extrapolate it. This is what it looks like. Really look at me and hear me here.

So the way it looks is you have a child. They start saying something for a really young age. They come to you, they're like, "Mommy, I'm supposed to be a girl. What's going on?" That doesn't happen. You wish that away. That's never happened. It literally happens. That's literally never occurred on the earth. Okay, well, you're full of shit. A three-year-old's gone up to their mom and said, "I'm supposed to be a girl." That's your argument? That doesn't happen. Unless that parent has suggested that idea to them,

They would never even conceive of I'm supposed to be something other than I am. They're still trying to figure out what even humans are. That's not true. That's not true. It is true. It's not, and hold on. Something that's really important to me as we're going here, I'd like to have good faith. I'm gonna take your argument seriously and I'm gonna hear it and I'm gonna respond to it.

It's not always three, but it's going to happen. The older you get, the more strong these declarations are going to get. The child is going to learn maladaptive behaviors. They're going to start having a lot of trouble integrating. They're going to be mocked. They're going to have trouble making friends. And yet my own, I had a really close sibling that saw this with me growing up. They told me it was like seeing the light in my eyes die day by day by day.

to the point where when I was 10, I couldn't leave the house. It was very difficult for me to go to school. My grades were terrible. I'm a reasonably smart person.

So I did need help. You may not want to believe that. This is an appeal to emotion. This is what a parent is trying to decide for their child. You're appealing to the emotion. I'm telling you clinically what this looks like. I'm letting you know that logically speaking, your entire argument is invalid. It's called an appeal to emotion. No. Now, if you want to address the actual situation, I brought up that even you are saying that up to 90% of children shouldn't transition. Yes.

You're now presenting that as a sales pitch as in it's beneficial to limit the number of children that transition. That is your fundamental argument. So, thank you. I agree with you. So then what are the detriments of those children transitioning that you would then present an argument to limit it? Well, hold on. Let's talk through what we mean by transition because there's social transition and there's medical transition.

And what I'm telling you is there's no rush for female to male transsexuals in going quickly. A mastectomy will work just as well for them at 18 or 19 as it will for 14. There's no reason to rush this because their detransition rates, hold on, are so high. But what I'm telling you is if you do this the other way,

there is permanent damage that ends up happening, and you're setting that person up for a much more difficult life. There's permanent damage that happens when you allow the children to transition too quickly as a child. I agree. Is that what you were saying? I'm saying there can be, yes. Right. So then we agree that this is a delicate situation, and it's extremely dangerous for children to transition because when they get older, if they change their mind, like children do.

then they could be suicidal, right? Because now they're stuck. If a child's going through puberty and then you just bombard them with chemicals, then it's like, what are we going to do now? Now they can never go back. They can never mature the same. And then what you did was still deflect away from the point, which was

if you don't mind, list off the negative side effects of allowing those kids to transition that's required for you to support your own argument. You're saying, if we went my route, it would be 90% less. So you're saying that's a good thing. You're saying it's a good thing to cut down. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Health care is not all or nothing. You're saying it's a good thing to cut down on the total number of children transitioning. Okay, why is that a good thing? Because...

The reason it is a good thing is these are permanent decisions. And what the science, what the studies are showing right now is the bulk of people that are transitioning and regretting it, they are natal females that regret transitioning to male. Think about all the celebrities out there talking about this, like people like Chloe Cole. They all come from one cohort. This is what I need for you to hear.

Here are the stats. I can show you science to back this up. If you're a natal male and you're someone like I was at four years old, you had gender dysphoria, you're very confused about this. There's a 90% chance that you're going to grow out of this and you're just going to be gay. I had a 90% chance of that. There's a 10% chance that you're going to grow up and then transition and be a transsexual.

The way that we tell this is if the child at the onset of puberty still has that gender dysphoria, it is overwhelmingly likely they are going to have that for the rest of their life. This is a medical condition that is overwhelmingly not going to go away. It does not make sense to me

to leave that child in a position where they cannot get treatment and they cannot have help when it's going to make their life so much worse. So hold off the medicalization. Well, what if it doesn't? What if they change their mind? Let me finish. Well, you're just kind of monologuing on sequiturs. My point is let the child, you're talking about this like we are medicalizing four-year-olds. We're not. I'm saying wait, take a cautious approach, get a long case history there. Only do this to the most extreme cases. Okay.

So I am asking you what the negative side effects are and you said only thing you said that even would be an answer is that it's a permanent decision.

Okay. Sure. Let's get through it. For which cohort do you want that? It doesn't matter because for any of them. You said I didn't answer your question. Tell me which cohort you want the answer to. You didn't. I asked you to list the negative side effects of allowing children to transition because in your own argument, you are presenting that as to be the case. Okay. I'm not going to stay on defensive this whole time. You're going to answer some of my questions, but let me answer really quickly.

So as I said in my opening statement, the non-binary cohort, there's no science to back this up that makes their lives better.

That's why you don't want to let them transition for the female to males the statistical probability is that they are going to Not like it and they're going to detransition and have bad feelings about that It's obviously suboptimal to have breast reconstruction when you had a mastectomy when you're 12 years old. That's a contraindication Also testosterone is so powerful. It's gonna fuck those girls up and their ability to pass

Wait, are you pro letting a little boy have medical surgery? I'm going to answer your question and then we can go off into that. The third thing is for the male to female cohort. The downsides to this is if you have one of these boys that had gender confusion at a very young age, there's actually a high likelihood they're going to grow up to be gay. So if you medicalize that too quickly, you could be doing damage to someone that's gay. But again, the good news is

is we have fairly high certainty because if that position is still on set at puberty, it's still present. What are all these vague terms? What does fairly high certainty mean?

What does that mean? I'm not going to sit here and answer defensive questions all day. Okay, so fairly high certainty is not 100%, right? It's a 90% chance roughly. 90% chance that if a little boy temporarily thinks he could be a girl that he's going to stay like that forever. Is that your claim? It doesn't stay that way forever, dude. It doesn't. Okay, so...

If a little boy says, I think I want to be a girl, you're saying that falls in the category if there's like six criteria. So let's say they check all the boxes. You keep saying the reason you should allow that child to transition, which is objectively child abuse.

You're saying that you should allow, you should abuse that child because there's a strong likelihood that when they got older, they wouldn't change their mind. So what is a strong likelihood? Like what's the percentage chance that that child won't change his mind? I'm going to repeat this to you. I know you have something going on. Look at me so you can hear this here. There's about a 90% chance that that child is going to grow out of it.

If the gender dysphoria is still there at puberty, there's a near certainty to the fact I cannot point to any study showing people to detransition. There's basically...

No evidence anyone can point to that gender dysphoria ever goes away if it's still present in puberty. Do you process that? Yeah, that's a cool claim. Show me a study to prove this. Literally anyone here can just pull their phone up and Google detransitioners, including people after puberty from boys to girls. Please do. Okay, it's effortless. I've seen them cry and be suicidal. So here's the question.

What is the acceptable amount if one child then regrets it and then commits suicide? Is that okay? This is what we're not going to do. I'm not going to spend this entire time on the defensive. You need to answer, this is good faith. You're making the affirmative claim. We need to go back and forth. You're advocating that we abuse children. Here's my question for you. At what point do the parents who understand their child best? Why can't a parent...

have the right to go to a psychiatrist, they understand their child the best, talk to them, find a course of treatment. Why do you get to override what a parent gets to choose to do with their own child's health care?

Why is that something you have the moral right to do? Children aren't dogs, or not even dogs. They're not inanimate objects that you just play with so you can run around and virtue signal about how you have a transgender child. It's a child that's learning how to even process the world. And there's so many different layers to this. If a child goes to school and he has a crush on a girl and he goes and asks her out and then she laughs at him, he's going to be like, damn, that sucked.

He's going to feel all bad, get all sad about it, right? If he comes home and his parents are letting him know, well, maybe, you know, you don't really have to be a boy and all this stuff. That little boy may think, oh, well, you know, I'll never have to face that rejection again. Like, I can just be a girl. And people can, we're talking about children, right?

i don't know if you guys have children okay but they change their mind a lot they're very emotional they're actually trying to learn how to process their emotions things like rejection and not being accepted is a big deal to them if you have someone putting in their ears all this sexualized terminology and this gender confusion then they're going to just look for a way out of whatever uncomfortable position they're in so

That is child abuse to even sexualize the children at all. What age should the children be allowed to have a conversation about changing their gender? You're talking about ages like three years old. You're not answering my question or going into some bullshit. So I'm going to ask you again. What gives you the moral right? A parent knows their child best. What gives you the right to go override a parent's right to make a medical decision about their own child with a doctor?

Why do you get to override? This isn't just a medical decision. It's like you can't just so you a parent can choose to do anything to their child and we'll just call it medical. If the child says, I don't think I should have two arms.

There is a medical protocol for this. There's a diagnosis protocol. I don't think I should have two arms. There are statistics that's not the same. You don't want to see the conclusion of this drawn out, obviously. It's a shitty analogy. It's bullshit. That's what you say, but the child says, I don't want to have two arms. Mommy and mommy says, you know what?

This is my right as his parent. We're going to take him to get amputated. Who are you to say that they can't cut off that child's arm? There's not a doctor out there that's going to facilitate that. There are doctors out there that specialize in this, that see these kinds of children all day long. And again, I'm telling you they're being over-medicalized. But there are, in good faith, doctors that will look at this

I think you're being so cavalier because you do not understand how difficult it is for these parents. They don't want to have this problem. My experience is that most of them like to virtue signal about it, and they hold up their children like a little token trophy of how amazingly progressive they are, and then they cause a lifelong damage to that child. And this is the part that didn't get addressed in my opener either. So...

There's something I'm sure you're aware of, right? Autogonophilia? Is that how you say it? Oh, we're going to talk about that. Yeah, let's talk about it. Sure. So that is one of the... It's typically not addressed. Some people are more bold. I think you've actually openly proclaimed that that applies to you. No! And so, on your Twitter. So this is where a man...

Gets her sexually aroused at the idea of being a woman or other people perceiving them to be a woman So it's a sexual fetish. So is it child abuse to introduce a sexual fetish to a child? So first of all if we're gonna have a good faith conversation question is this we're gonna have a good faith conversation You're not gonna say that kind of bullshit. That's over the line. I never said that on my Twitter. I

That's a fucking lie. You never said what? I said I had an autogynephilia. That's absolutely bullshit. You mean to read it? So let's go through this one by one. All right, we'll read it. Actually, don't surf your whole fucking thing while we're talking. Oh, you want to take back that you said it or you want me to read it? I did not. Forget it. So let's talk through this. You said it. Let's talk about this. Answer my question. What is your question?

Is it child abuse to introduce a sexual fetish to a child? The question makes no sense because it's not about a sexual fetish for the child. So you agree it is? It would be child abuse? If you look at what we actually know about this phenomenon, you don't understand enough to have a conversation about this.

These are just all fallacies. Identity defense model. You don't understand. Where AGP is a consequence of not affirming the child is not a root cause of this. And a child is never going to

They're not seeing their gender. They haven't even hit puberty yet to have anything like this. Who do you think discovered the typology? Do you know this? Many trans women go into sex work because a lot of us have autogonophilia and being objectified is erotic for us. Many trans women go into sex work because many trans women...

I've never done fucking sex work, dude. No, no. I didn't say, no. I said, well, a lot of us have autogynephilia. So you have absolutely, and there's multiple times where you've addressed it, attributing it to you. I have a very simple question. Can you admit that you lied? That's just bullshit. Lied about what?

It's total bad faith here. Are we having a real discussion? Yes, you're afraid to address this because this is the blunt truth of this. I'm trying to address it and you don't understand enough. It's sexual deviancy. That's what this is. It's sexual deviancy. And men have this weird sexual fantasy or fetish about being perceived as a woman

That's what it is. And so why are we introducing sexualized ideas and fetishes to children? That's child abuse. My question to you is, is it child abuse to introduce a sexual fetish to a child? It's a yes or no question. It would be if that's what is happening. I need you to pause. Take a breath. Just chill. It's going to be okay. I'm going to walk you through this. I'm going to walk the audience through it too.

There are two types of transsexuals according to Blanchard Typology, which has been, it's a very iffy theory. We actually had one of the main professors of this, John Michael Bailey, on my show a few weeks ago to talk about this in depth. So the first thing you need to know is there's a very small sample size for this, but most honest trans women will tell you it's onto something. So one of the things, there are two types. There's one, there's the homosexual transsexual.

This tends to be very early onset, so the children you're talking about by definition are generally going to be homosexual, transsexuals. We're the ones interested in boys and we generally grow up to be people like me. The other ones you have onset at puberty, that's roughly around seventh grade, 12, 13, 14, that can be the autogynephilic type.

What is important to understand about this is the AGP type. It's not, that's not the core thing motivating the behavior. It is a consequence of not being affirmed. It is a maladaptive coping mechanism. Okay. Children shouldn't even be introduced to sexual ideas. You keep on, you keep, you keep, you keep moving the goalposts. It is. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation. No one's talking about that.

You're talking about wearing tutus and playing with Barbies. Chill out. Okay, so what age is it appropriate to have any of this type of discussion with the child? How old does a child need to be before you start introducing the ideas of sexual orientation, changing your gender? You shouldn't talk about it. What you should do for those children at a young age is let them be themselves.

If they want to play with Barbie dolls, let them play with Barbie dolls. If they want to play with Taylor Swift, let them do that. If they want to watch girls' cartoons, let them do that. I'm talking about just letting them be themselves. Okay, and then once they hit puberty, if they still feel like they're more girly, then it's okay to transition. Now, I want you, let's just, we're going to cut straight to the chase here. I'm saying that is the point where it makes sense for them to go to a therapist or

That can help them unpack this. Okay, so what are you advocating? You said there's different types of transition, right? So like emotional, psychological, chemical, medical, surgical, I don't know. You named them. What are you advocating for? For a 13-year-old boy who says, I think I want to be a girl.

Instead of like going and playing some sports and working out and be like, no, I just need to get the girl. I need to figure out how to get the girl. They're like, no, I'll just, I'll be a girl. Okay. And so they're all confused and they're growing up and there's all these hormones going on. You're trying to figure out what's going on in the world. 13 says, I think I should be a girl. And we all know they're being propagandized and that's the truth. And it's in, it's in the curriculum. It's in the curriculum. What's the evidence that children are being propagandized?

Is that the question? Well, okay. Okay, okay, yeah. Including in curriculum and all over their YouTube, kids and everything. Okay, so say propagandized thinks he wants to be a girl at 13. You're advocating they should be transitioned. I'm asking what- That's not what I said. It is. It's absolutely not what I said. It is what you said. I'm gonna repeat this to you. It gets us so bad faith. It is so frustrating. Y'all, I can sit here and list every single study. I can talk about every aspect of this.

He doesn't understand enough about this subject to have a genuine discussion about health care. Okay, poisoning the well, ad hominems, red herrings, pills to emotion. Next. No, I'm saying you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Okay, that is just a baseless assertion. It's not an actual rebuttal. I asked you a simple question. What are you even here advocating for? You said there's different types of transition. You used that to muddy the water when you were asked another specific question. It's a medical fact.

- It's a medical fact. - Okay, so what type of transitioning are you advocating for for children? - So I'm gonna say this to you again. - This is a very straightforward question. - And I really hope you can hear me. I know it's hard for you to look at me, but try it. It may help you process it this time. The non-binaries, don't do it. The female to males, don't do it. - Don't do what? - Don't transition them. - Transition how? You said there's different types.

Don't medically transition. Medically transition. Let's talk about what does that mean? What does that mean? I'm going to answer your question. And I also, I may need the moderator to step in. I'm not going to send this entire thing on the back foot. This has to be some good faith.

You're saying that we should abuse children. You're taking the affirmative. So the final type is the male to female transsexual. And this is what I would say. If a child has early onset, like around five years old, you need to not rush it. You need to not medicalize this very quickly. It's very important to go slow. I would also say it's very important to find a non-ideological doctor.

It is absolutely true that a lot of these gender clinics are held by the progressive fringe and they're pushing medicalization on these kids. So make really sure you've got a doctor that you trust and that you will be able to answer questions to. So do not medically transition those kids

Do let them start exploring themselves because what you're probably going to find 90% of those times it says males are just going to grow up to be gay. Now in the 10% chance where puberty onsets and they still have these feelings, I think it makes sense to go to a therapist

See if it makes sense to transition, leave a door open there, but make it for the most serious, long, documented cases. Symptomology has to drive treatment. All I'm saying is there should be a window open there for those cases. You didn't specifically answer it. How did I not answer that? Well, I'm happy to explain.

Do you advocate specific medical transitioning of children? Don't say, I think they should go to a therapist. Answer the question. Are you saying they should be surgically transitioned? Should they be surgically transitioned? In those very rare cases, what makes sense to me is surgery should be off the table. And the good news is the Plastic Surgeon Society has just said they are not going to operate on any more minors.

So these horror stories of girls getting mastectomies at 14, that's not going to happen. So we agree that's child abuse. That's not going to happen anymore. So we agree on that. What I am saying is-- Do we agree that's child abuse? What I am saying is-- Talk about bad faith. --for those kids, as they're-- I'm saying it makes sense to get them on hormones, anti-androgens and estrogen.

and to make sure that their body is not damaged by testosterone and to let them start socially transitioning. Okay. What about when that boy decides that he doesn't want to be a girl in three years? I told you the odds of that are, there's no study I can point to that says that's going to happen. So you're just making the baseless claim and you're appealing to the absence of evidence. I'm telling you there's...

There's no scientific basis for what you're worried about. You're appealing to the absence of evidence to say that there's going to be nobody that changes their mind. That's your argument. So if there are some that change their mind, which there obviously are,

okay you can just go to tick tock and watch people ball their eyes out about how they got tricked into transitioning by these perverted adults that are sexual deviants and now they wish they could go back so you're claiming that doesn't exist at all no it's not what i'm saying i'm saying it's a different cohort in a way you don't understand oh it just this is your whole argument it just you don't understand

Oh, you don't understand. You don't understand my plight. If only you understood and then you appeal to the emotion of the audience, but you don't address what I'm saying. That's horseshit. I'm talking about policy and science and cohorts and things we know. In the scenario that someone changes their mind...

Okay, do you agree that's a bad thing? Let me walk you through why someone changes their mind. This is complicated. Do you agree it's a bad thing? I'm not going to keep going on my back foot. You're going to let me explain things so the audience can understand this so they can learn something. Well, you're trying to actually not address exact points. There are multiple kinds of transsexuals. Okay.

So one of the things that's happened with this progressive project is transvestites have been rolled into the transsexual category. When I transitioned 20 years ago, no one was talking about putting transvestites, males that get a sexual fetish from wearing women's clothing, on HRT. Today, those people are rolled into the trans umbrella.

Some of them have some gender dysphoria, but they are people with very lurid fantasies of being a woman. And what you're seeing in a lot of these detransitioner cases is these are people with low body dysmorphia,

that are not really strongly wanting to transition and it's not serving them. And they are finding that life as a woman is difficult and does not serve them. This is why this progressive project to take away all medical guidelines, the same set of procedures I had to go through to transition, you don't have to follow that anymore today.

So the detransitioners are not the boys who said they had an issue when they were 14 years old, statistically. It's not them. It is adults with a long history of fetishistic cross-dressing and low body dysmorphia who find it does not serve them. - Okay, so this is the problem, just like,

Big monologue, not address the question specifically. It's policy. It's policy. I'm trying to explain complicated stuff to you. Okay, chill out. So like, you're afraid to answer the questions directly. And you are. They're just too complicated for you to understand. No, they're not. They're not. You're talking about sexualizing children. It's disgusting. You're switching topic. No, I'm not. You're not talking about anything I just said. We're talking about adults. Dude, you're freaking out.

So the reality of the situation is I asked you point blank what transitioning should be allowed. Then I said, okay, because you just said statistically they're not going to detransition. Well, just a second ago there were no studies whatsoever. There were no numbers, no data. That's right. Oh, but now we can invoke statistics. Do you know what statistics means? A certain percentage of something? Statistics. You can't invoke statistics without the data. You're just making stuff up. That's what's actually happening. There's a literal study where they tracked people. Let me finish. Let me finish.

Thank you. So you're making stuff up and you keep appealing to the emotion of the audience. Vague claims just like baseless assertions. There's no evidence. Statistically speaking. You are too stupid to have this conversation with. There you go. You don't understand anything. That's called an ad hom, buddy. You're just stupid. You don't know anything about this. You're freaking out. You're a dumbass. All right. Good one. You're really not smart. Let Whitsitt answer this and then we'll give you a chance to respond. Yeah, someone's getting triggered.

I don't know what I'm talking about. Someone's getting triggered. Yeah, you're getting super triggered. So my question was very simple. What about when they change their mind? I've already answered this. No, you didn't. Can we get the moderator to give some structure here? They'll never answer the question because the truth is... I've answered it multiple times. Are you saying that's just a... Why is the moderator being invoked? She just monologued. He just monologued the whole time. Then I go to talk and immediately get cut off.

Not cutting you off, you asked a question. She says she's already answered it. If you can't concisely summarize that answer, then we'll move on to the next topic. The question is you allow some of those children to medically transition with the doctor, but a very low number with very high standards. That wasn't the question. The question is what about when they change their mind? Okay, and the answer is that the suicide rate is astronomical. Something else that -- Actually, you asked a question, let her answer. What if they change their mind? It's very statistically unlikely to happen.

There's no study to show this happens. I was literally talking to one of the specialists in this field last week who said in decades of doing this work, he's never seen this happen. Okay, 10th consecutive time to answer a question wasn't answered. So I'm asking when it does happen. So it's fine. I'm going to now make my point about it, which is...

that it can cause suicidal thoughts. It's incredibly detrimental, and everyone knows that, and the suicide rates are through the roof. Something else is they're finding that autism is very prevalent within this community, within transgenderism. So we're talking about people that are confused, people that are struggling, they're being propagandized with all these different sexualized ideas that have sexual fetishes embedded within them, and then they're given all kinds of these irreversible interventions,

And when they decide or they find out later that they were tricked and they changed their mind, they become suicidal. So can we agree that that's a very dangerous thing on its face, that the reason that you advocate for dropping the number down 90% is because it's so dangerous that people can become suicidal if we actually allow them to transition and they change their mind? They are the female to males, which are a very, very new cohort.

This did not exist. Do y'all realize Buck Angel was one of the first female to male transsexuals? If you guys don't know, that's a porn star because this is all just sexual deviancy. Go ahead and let her answer.

This is a very new phenomenon. And unlike my debate opponent, I actually sit here and look at the numbers, and that informs the policy that I support. We're not going to have a vibes-based gender-like healthcare system. It's got to be based on the studies. And by the way, this area is so criminally under-researched. One example, you brought up the typology in AGP. This is...

Like the numbers that they are using to force this typology, it is tiny. So every aspect of this is criminally under-researched. Okay. Survey found 8% of respondents had detransitioned temporarily or permanently at some point and that the majority did so temporarily. Rates of detransition were higher in transgender women, 11%, than transgender men, 4%.

Who is this according to? U.S. Transgender Survey from 2015 with a cross-sectional non-probability study of 27715TDD. No surveys exist, though. I mean, that just won. I said for that survey, which I took. This is why you don't understand what you're talking about. That survey, which I took.

had adults in it like me. Anyone could click on a link and follow it. My claim was for minors. No, no, no. Your actual claim was that when someone does it male to female after puberty, that they basically never decide to go back. That's what you said. If it's early onset. Okay, now can we agree on this? That the autogonophilia aspect of it is...

continue this debate if it's just me on my back foot. It has got to be some structured questions. She has answered that question, so go ahead. What do you want to pose to Whitsitt? So this is my question. You'll get a chance after this one. So how do you think, God, it's hard to even understand where to go. So how, if a child does not have sexual understanding, or at least I didn't, maybe you did, when 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10,

Why are you concluding that this is sexuality when the child is that young? Because for most of these kids, it's identity. They see girls in their group and they want to play with them. They want to play with Barbies. They want to wear tutus. Why are you coming up with this degenerate, weird idea that it's about sex? It's literally just about you trying to act like yourself.

You just said that oftentimes one of the reasons we should be cautious is because really it turns out they're homosexual. Most gay people know they're gay when they're younger, but they don't have the language for it. It's not sexual. That's what you say. Okay, so this entire premise is sexual in nature, right? It's not. It is. It's 100% not. It absolutely is because, for example— How do you know that? Okay, how do I know that? You keep appealing to just like possibilities. No, just answer my question.

How do I know that? Because it's grown adults that are sexual deviants that are all advocating that children be allowed to be introduced to the concepts of changing their gender and then physically transitioning and then making sure they can explore their sexuality. And it's always...

from the source of adults that are sexual deviants. And when you actually look into it, when it comes to men playing dress up like women, that group of people, there is a huge percentage of autogynephilia, which is specifically sexual in nature. And you yourself admitted it. So you even said that a large percentage of them after puberty that would be identifying as that, it is that autogynephilia nature. My question to you is about five-year-olds. You're talking about adults. So let's

Five-year-olds change their mind every few days. My question to you is why are you claiming it's about sexuality in children if children don't have sexuality yet?

Because you're introducing the concept that their sexual anatomy needs to be different. I'm not introducing anything. No. Yes. That's what it is, right? If you're going to consider that I'm a boy but I should be a girl, the very next step is to address your anatomical discrepancies, right? That is the very next thing. Oh, really? No.

All I wanted when I was a very young child was to play with Barbies and hang out with girls and watch Gem in the hologram. Yeah, just like my little sister liked to watch the Colts and memorize the wide receivers, and then she is married. Sure.

Now because she grew out of the fact that she... This is my point. Let those kids be kids. Don't sexualize them. Don't medicalize them. Like, don't get this bullshit out of school. You're here saying that at a certain age, so 13 or around puberty, so maybe 10, 11, that they should then be transitioned. That's what you're here advocating for. I'm saying that there should be a window open and we're getting back. You still have not answered my question.

Why do you think this is about sex? Do you not understand? I just answered that. Do you not understand this is about identity? I just answered it. It is so painful. It's a bunch of adults that are sexual deviants trying to push the... That's your argument? All trans people are sexual deviants? I mean... Yeah, yeah.

They are. But it's not even just that. I just addressed it specifically. It's autogynephilia. What's disgusting is autogynephilia being introduced to children. That's what's disgusting. That's not true. It's child abuse. That's not true. Look, it's pretty simple, man. It's very simple, okay?

Whenever you introduce this idea to a child, they should just be learning basic things, playing with their friends. They shouldn't be having these very heavy thoughts of, should I actually be a boy? What does that mean? What's a boy? What's a girl? So they're going to be like, what's the difference in a boy and what's the difference in a girl? And all you can point to is playing with Barbies? Well, believe it or not, there's more differences in boys and girls than Barbies. And so now the children are going to have to figure out what are those differences. I understand that you're very low on empathy. But for the people out there that aren't, I really want to tell you what it's like.

You are trying desperately to fit into the world and every time you try to express yourself You get all these signals from the world that you don't fit in and your every instinct you have is wrong from the things you want to play with from the vocal inflections that you use to the friends you want to make to the things you're interested in when I was a child I would literally hold my hands behind my back from the ages of like 7 to 11 and

'Cause when I talk, I'd be very expressive with my hands and they would call me a faggot. So it's like, what you're not understanding is it's so much deeper than this like conservative crazy stereotype you're coming to. You literally can't function and it breaks you in a fundamental way and maybe funny to you. - Dude, the irony of talking about functioning.

to go through. You're dysfunctional by definition. What are you talking about? I can't function. Like, no, I'm saying leave the children alone. If you think that they should one day they feel like they're the wrong gender and they should change the sex, the wrong sex, right? Then let them be adults. Yeah, that's correct and that's all there is. You just said the opposite. I corrected to say that it's sex because gender is a social construct. It's not a gender.

It is, though. So what I'm saying is why not just wait until they're adults? You're saying that for almost all of them, you should wait. Yeah. And then you say, well, if there's a female that wants to be a man, ah, just, you know, they're okay. You should let them socially transition. But specifically with what you identify as and based on your personal experience that when you were a kid, you were more prone to girly things, then we should let little boys –

transition into little girls for irreversible in irreversible ways irreversible ways chemicals that completely change their development forever and i've asked you talk about bad faith i've asked you the elephant in the room 30 times what about when they change their mind do you not agree that that would be terrible and detrimental and effectively abuse if a child answer this question directly if a child is being introduced these ideas could even coaxed into the idea

'cause they're just kinda confused when they're younger, and then they end up being given these chemicals and this medicine and treatment from adults, and then they change their mind a few years later. Is that abuse? - That would be a very bad outcome. - Would that be abuse? Would that be child abuse?

Maybe. I don't know. Yeah, so your own argument, what you're advocating for, if you yield even 1% of people changing their mind, you're saying you're advocating for child abuse. This is the problem with all or nothing thinking out there because his way of thinking tells every single one of those kids. Like, let's say it's, like...

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You think they could help us get up this next hill? One step at a time. Californians have the strongest privacy protections in the country. Go the extra mile to protect your information. Learn more at privacy.ca.gov. Trans girls into being meat from the machine for one child. There's an unconscious math that's going on here.

that trans people's life doesn't matter if it inconveniences someone who's not trans. And what I'm talking about here are very, very, very high safeguards. If you understood more of the science, we could talk through what those safeguards are. They're actually extremely high. We actually know a lot about them.

You want to lead to this all or nothing thinking that there's just not medical evidence for it. And there's a human cost to what you're advocating. No. So what your rebuttal right there was, was that, yeah, sure, that to the exceptions where it would be child abuse, it's worth it.

That it's like the cost-benefit analysis is that it's worth it based on the numbers. All medicine is a cost-benefit analysis. Your argument was that, yes, we should advocate for child abuse because the numbers will be low. And in fact, we don't even actually know the numbers. You're actually appealing to an absence of numbers. But this is the point. You've trapped yourself at this point. You're saying that in the scenario that they're taught these ideas, introduced to them, and then given treatment to transition but changed their mind, that that would be child abuse. I don't know how.

Now we can have a discussion with someone who literally does not care about those children. No, I do care about the children. The solution, you admitted it would be child abuse. You said, but we shouldn't just sacrifice the 99 for the one. The one is now going to be suicidal, has irreversible damage they can never get back. The 99 had to wait a little bit longer until they were adults to make their own decision.

is the benefit of doing it when they're so young that is worth child abuse. The damage is, it's not child abuse. That's complete bullshit. You just said it was. The damage is you're missing on socialization, which is very, very difficult. And testosterone is so powerful, it will permanently destroy your body and make it much harder to integrate. I want to ask you a question. So what, let's say tomorrow your child, you said they were two years old, are they a boy or a girl?

They're girls. Okay. Let's say you had a boy tomorrow. What would you do for a child? You have that child. You're horrified. They're three years old. They start asking you, dad, why do I have a penis? They show a complete, I know it's not actually funny. That's how God made you. It's actually not that funny. So as they get older, you find they're unable to socialize. They're withdrawn from you. They're hiding.

They're afraid. They are unable to make friends. You see them failing at school. And they're scared of you because you think all trans children, all trans adults are deviants in your own words. Like what would you do for your child in that situation? Well, you know, you're supposed to be able to raise your child in a way that they feel comfortable talking to you and you protect them from demonic sexual deviants that are propagandizing them to where they're sexually confused at young ages. That's what you do.

So this is the truth too that doesn't ever want to be talked about. A lot of this stems from trauma. When you actually look into it, so it's like over one third of those who claim to be transgender sought out mental treatment for mental illnesses. And then there's a huge overlap with trauma.

It's a comorbidity. So maybe don't traumatize your child. Maybe don't neglect them. Maybe don't feed them to the machine where they're propagandized. Maybe don't sexualize your children at all. Don't even have these comments. Three-year-olds don't walk up saying, I wish I didn't have a penis. That isn't reality. That doesn't actually happen. And if it does happen, that parent should be put in jail. The parent freaking taught them that. It is child abuse. And I just want to drive this home one more time.

You did agree that in the scenario that they were cooks into it, given treatment and changed their mind, it was child abuse. And you're saying that it's a worthy cause because of what? Your answer was socialization for the benefit of it being socially easier for that child. It's worth the risk. It's not just that. Abusing other children. It is the integration. It is missing the comorbidities you were just talking about. If you have a trans child,

Spin a roulette wheel because something else is gonna go wrong with them. They're gonna have a major depressive episode. They're gonna be suicidal. They're going to have social anxiety disorder through the roof. Like the comorbidities that happen to these kids when you don't affirm them are truly terrifying. You can damage those children for life. I think anyone out here can look at trans Twitter and

and see just how mentally unhealthy it is. Most of those kids grew up without any kind of support. Your answer, if you have that child, is essentially don't affirm them. You have some magical ideas about how to be able to avoid this. My parents did this to me. Healthy parenting is magical? My parents tried this to me. I still grew up to be trans. Okay, just to clarify, right, social integration, like I can easily counter that,

It's actually going to be way more detrimental when you actually coax them into it and you appease them and you just immediately affirm these... They're just asking questions. You're like, oh, well, actually, you're probably...

something that we call trans and you start coaxing them into it when you force when you like expedite integration to social integration when they then change their mind when they then find out that's not actually how they feel right because you because it's been so open the door's been opened up to invite them into this idea at such a young age you're the one that's going to cause the suicides and the evidence has shown that after medical treatment or actual transitions the suicide rate goes up this is not true yeah

This is what you don't understand fundamentally. You think you can just tell someone to grow up out of gender dysphoria. We really try this. We really try to be men. We try to push these feelings so deep inside of us. It is like wearing a mask all the time. No one knows who you are. You're pretending to feel things and like things that you just have no interest in.

You're more alone than I can begin to describe. And let me just tell you my story. Before I transitioned, I was literally a drug-addicted, shut-in mess. Recently smart person. I could not function. I could not hold a job. I went to a therapist for three months. They diagnosed me with gender dysphoria. I took that to a doctor. I got a note. I got an estrogen. Instantly. Instantly. Instantly.

Life 100% came into focus. I've not used a drug in 20 years Because I don't feel a need to do it anymore. I felt like I could function I will guarantee you I pay more in taxes a year than you do. I've done very very well for myself I've made a good career. This was health care for me. What are you talking about? I know. This I'm saying that this is medical treatment that made my life exponentially better

And you just think you can talk someone out of it. It's not true. No, you think that you can roll the dice with the future of children as adults, then introduce sexual deviancy to them, and I disagree with you. It's not sexual deviancy. It is because we all know that at the core of it, it is sexually driven. It's identity. Look, I can even say I can empathize with your position personally, okay, that you maybe were confused or whatever.

You should wait till you're an adult to act on those things. Okay. I did. Okay. Okay. There should be no, it nearly killed you. Okay. See, this is the one I'm in. This is what the actual evidence shows is that after some of these people, certainly when they're younger and they, they undergo these treatments that are irreversible, they find out my voice is never going to go back.

God forbid they do surgery, right? Because then they realize that that's horrific, okay? Even just trying to get through the actual healing process. And they want to go back, but they can't go back. And the suicide rate goes up. The suicide rate goes up. So this idea was the reason, the alleged rebuttal was the reason that suicide is so high within transgenderism is actually because...

they're not accepted. It's a lack of social integration. What we found out is that's not the case at all. Even whenever they're constantly being affirmed and it's thrown all over the place, there's still a very high rate of suicide. It's a very difficult path. This is why I would recommend to anyone, if you can find another way to deal with gender dysphoria, don't transition. It worked as well for me as it can work for anyone. It's a rough path.

Because you have to sit on panels like this and have this discussion justifying your own existence to people. I have no compassion for you. I want to talk about what some of the comorbidities happen if you don't treat this. You can look at my wrist right here. You can see the deepest scars. When I was a teenager, I spent so much time trying to slit my wrist right here.

I immediately, when I left home, I started doing every single drug I could get my hands on. Just trying to numb these feelings inside because I was so terrified about it. I had social anxiety disorder. I had no friends. It has frankly taken me, I'm 47 now, it has taken me many years of work to try to come to a point where I can put that trauma aside.

So I just, I feel like there's a callousness in how you're talking about this. Yes, because you are just so casually talking about introducing these concepts and even medical treatment. Not saying introduce it. I never claimed that. It doesn't come out of the sky, okay? That's right. Okay, so introducing medical treatments to them and then under your own admission. This is why you've always had to just say that basically never happens. Under your own admission that...

if it does happen, it would basically amount to child abuse and that it would increase the likelihood of suicide. - We've gone down this road. - Yeah, because that's the conclusion. - But it's bullshit. There's no study you can point to for this. - You're just virtue signaling and appealing to emotion when in the reality is I'm saying please leave the children alone. Let them grow up. If they decide to be an adult and they wanna do something like this, go for it. Don't confuse children. - Yeah, you're just gonna call them sexual degenerates if they do. - Well, if they are sexual degenerates, then I mean-- - We're not. We're normal people.

Autogonophilia isn't normal. Autogonophilia abates once you transition someone generally. It usually goes away. You're talking about a sexology. Yeah, because now they are identified. You're talking about a sexology theory.

that is a very minimally applicable theory for how most trans people live our lives. What happens is you transition, you go on hormones and those feelings, you integrate all these feelings and you just go have a normal life. If you like playing video games, by the way,

You have a lot of trans women to think about that. There are tons of them in the video game industry. Like we are normal people. Can we, maybe we can end on what we are talking about. It's like we're sexual super predators and we're just like under socialized geeky women.

Being this passionate about sexualizing children is a huge red flag. This is so much bullshit. It is so much bullshit. Hey, let me say one more thing. Fuck you. Maybe we can talk about what we agree on. I have never said sexualized children. That is a fucking lie. I didn't say what you said anything. Let's just see what we can agree on because I do actually, I will applaud you that you at least push back on the absolute insane progressive version of this. Okay, let's talk about why though.

Like, why are you so passionate about pushing back against the progressive version? Because there are people in here that are raising their hand and clapping for you. They're over there. No, they're not. So there are absolutely people in this room that are all like, yeah, yeah, affirm, affirm, affirm, affirm. It makes me better. Who are they? Point to them. We'll talk to them after the show. No, I'm not going to actually. I know some. Who is it? Look, look.

Look, I'm just saying, I'm trying to have a positive note here because this is fruitful, right? Like, can you, in good faith, list off all the very serious concerns and negative side effects with the current state of advocating for children to transition? And then we can just strongly disagree on that remaining 10%. And I would apply all the stuff that you would say to the 10%.

say that it's child abuse let them be adults can you list off all the very serious concerns you have because it sounds like you're running cover the fact that you don't raise that raise awareness to why it's bad five minutes to the Q&A you brought up safeguards but then let it go instead of going back to that topic if you want to go through the safeguards that are out there thank you so and this actually ties into one of your points about

the Progressive Political Project, which has actually dismantled a lot of the medical safeguarding out there. So symptomology drives treatment with gender dysphoria. There are actually six criteria out there for having gender dysphoria. When I transitioned, I had all six. Believe it or not, they have lowered it to just two standards. You just have to hit two things on this list nowadays to qualify for gender dysphoria, which is insanity.

So what I would say is if you're talking about a child, it really has to be the most extreme version of this, hitting six out of six, long years of history on this,

We can move back to these older standards from the DSM-IV, the DSM-IV-TR. We need to completely abolish the DSM-V standards of this and also roll back the SOC-VIII, which are very negative. He does have a point here that these institutions have been captured by the progressive fringe. Like him, they have all or nothing thinking on this. Like him, like him.

They don't want to look at the science of this, and like him, they have a political project that is going ahead of patient health. They don't want to look at these studies in depth with an open mind and find out what's going to be best for that patient. If we're serious about healthcare, we cannot let these wider political narratives set what we're doing for these patients. We need to make it about individualized healthcare. - Okay, yeah, so she's,

So the important part of the studies, every time I bring up the studies, you keep talking about that. Like that's just a political and I'm ignoring studies. No, every time I specify or ask for specified data, you ignore it. Like when I brought up that, I brought up that after reassignment surgery, suicide goes up. You said that wasn't true. Respectfully, you don't know. Long-term follow-up, transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery, cohort study in Sweden, sex reassigned persons also had an increased risk of suicide attempts and psychiatric and patient care. Oh, hand wave dismissal. Yeah.

actually waved her hand. Like, just hand wave dismissal. You just, you don't know what, it's so, anyone watching this can obviously see you have no fucking idea what you're talking about. That's all you got to add on. You do not understand. Add on. I'm saying, make a judgment on how much he understands. Okay, suicide attempts went up after people got reassignment surgery. Address the point.

I don't know which study you're talking about. If that did happen, what I would say is it is very difficult, particularly in this moment, to be a transgender person. There's absolutely a political project to push this out of public life. I've actually been called a sexual degenerate on stage. But that would have happened before the surgery. I've actually been called...

a sexual degenerate here today. It's exhausting. But why would it go up after the surgery? The dehumanization that you deal with. Why would it go up after the surgery? You're saying that it's social pressure. That occurred before the surgery. If anything, a surgery should help. That was your entire argument. I'm saying that there is a political mission that makes our lives much harder. It is wildly bad. It helped me personally. Okay, but what I'm asking you is, why would the suicide attempt...

attempt rate go up after the surgeries. What I said to you is I don't know the particular study you're talking about right there. I need to look at that. Can you give any guesses? I just fucking did that, dude. You are like crazy. No, you didn't. You cannot follow the conversation. No, you didn't. You addressed variables that exist prior to reassignment. So you didn't address it at all. The answer is they regret cutting off their penis. That's the reason that they're suicidal. I hate to break it to you. Go ahead. Let her respond to that now.

I don't even know what to say to this. Look, vaginoplasty is a complicated surgery. I like it. I like men. It's a good surgery. So, you know, there's some regret for it. It's very complicated. But definitely no children should do that, right? We agree on that. Yeah. No children should do that. It's bad for them because your vaginal depth would be terrible. And no children should take testosterone. Probably, yeah.

Okay, and on that agreement, that does wrap up our open discussion. If you would, we will have approximately 25 minutes of Q&A. Can someone bring me some whiskey, please? It's time to relapse. I need you to back up here to at least the X. Keep sliding back, please. Keep sliding back. Jesus Christ. Why can't you just yield the other 10%? I don't get it.

We could be on the same team in that way. I don't want to be on your team. Well. All righty. Let's see if we can get these questions kicked out here then, sir. Hi. Two questions for you. So just to make sure, first question, just to make sure I have it right. Of the minority of children that you would say meet the symptomology and should get

Treatment for for trends have the option with the doctor. Yes. Or in some rare cases get treated very rare cases. Right. I think you also said that the data there's no study to show. Yes. So like many other

treatments, pharmacology, pharmaceuticals, et cetera. Should we wait till such data exists before considering actually applying this and whether this is a good treatment or should we just kind of like, as your opponent said, roll the dice, apply the treatment and just see where things go? I think this is one of the reasons I was so against the Trump executive orders. This is a really good point that the Trump executive orders make NIH data, NIH grants to get that kind of data impossible now.

So even if we were interested in those kinds of answers, we can't do that right now. The studies here are so universally underfunded, so if we were in good faith sitting down and saying we're going to allocate a few hundred million dollars to this and really study it and really understand it and develop a clinical protocol, I would 100% support a pause there. The problem is this political mission is trying to stop all of it

and not do any more science on it because I think they're afraid of the answer. So I hope that answers your question. Hey, I got a question real fast. If a parent allowed a child to get a face... This is not... Okay, let's go ahead and go to the questions here from the audience. How you guys doing? This is a question for both you guys. Yes. So...

There's an actress named Megan Fox. I bet you all you guys know who she is. She's in Transformers, and she actually has three transgender sons, and she actually just adopted another transgender son. I wanted to see what you guys both think about that. Start with Kibiana. Seems statistically unlikely. I would like to know what trans means in this case. Does it mean they're non-binary? Are they medically transitioning? Do you know? Yeah, so, yeah, they're...

Transitioning to the opposite. Well, no, no, no. They were born like that, but she adopted somebody, like a son who's also like. Well, hold on. I want to make sure I understand your question. So you said she had three children. One of them she adopted, so that's exogenous. And the two natural children are both. No, no, no. The three are natural. All three are natural. She adopted someone who's natural as well. Are they non-binary or are they. They're non-binary, all of them. Well, that's just social contagion.

I think it's child abuse.

And that the statistical odds of all those children being like that are astronomically, laughably low. And it's child abuse. It's child abuse. I will heartily agree with you that some of these parents out there that seem to have all their children trans, that really sets off every red flag I have. And if I were a clinician, I would not work with them. It seems really, really strange to me.

Don't you see why that's what we should take? Just be safer than sorry and leave the children out of it. We've been down that road a few times here. Thank you.

You had asked about Megan Fox, and I was going to ask a similar question, so I won't. Sure. But the word we'll use is munchasm by proxy syndrome for the mothers to get attention. The first thing I was going to say is at one point you said that not transitioning children worsens their comorbidities. Yes. Wouldn't it be more the case that the comorbidity, the actual, the mental disorder, we might be speaking of the physical disorder, is the cause? And that, again, the idea that not transing them makes it worse is

if in fact the comorbidity is the only reason they're trans in the first place? Can we go one at a time so I can answer? Well, what makes more sense to you? Like, say for me, I had social anxiety disorder. Do you think I... Not three. I just knew I vaguely wanted to be a girl. I could have been older. It's all these... The age of onset, for me, it was very early. You don't know what you got at three.

But to answer your question, are you saying you think that depression, suicidality, that leads to gender dysphoria rather than gender dysphoria leading to the other? Closer to what I was saying, more to the effect of yes, you're depressed and then you're given this opportunity where you're given attention by people. You're immediately affirmed.

you're an unimportant person, all of a sudden you're a very important person. Especially at that age where attention is a very important thing. 100%. I think this is why this progressive bullshit about bringing this into schools, get rid of this today. I understand that what you're trying to do is sort of a position in the middle. Again, the last thing I was going to point out is that when you cite the social sciences,

I myself wanted to go to graduate school and all of you can say this is a joke but I had very good GREs, very good grades and it was very clear that I wasn't going to be compliant. And it was one of the, for a humanity or for a social science it matters that you have letters of recommendation. Sure. Things like that. You can be gate kept.

And the reason someone like myself isn't a social scientist or a humanities graduate student or PhD, I think, is because I wasn't going to be compliant with the type of activism that something like the social sciences is now owned by, by the perspective of many of us. So when you cite some of these statistics, I'm skeptical of the science behind it because I don't think it's science anymore. I think it's activism. I think that's a fair point. I really do. I think very clearly. But just to

For some good faith with this, like you mentioned AGP and HSTS, Blanchard is not progressive, and neither is John Michael Bailey. So neither is Ann Lawrence for that matter. So I don't think it's the case for everyone, but you're very right to be suspicious of the methodology on these studies. Look into them.

because it's generally done by grad students, it's generally surveys posted to students, and they put everyone into this giant soup. So non-binaries are there with people like me. It's bad methodology. - They're making millions and millions of dollars with an additional-- - There's not millions of dollars to be made through research. - Surgery, yeah, yes there is. Yes, for the therapy and the surgery. - I said through research. We're talking about research, yeah.

Well, it's Q&A just you talking like I'm just making a point that there's an additional revenue stream that wouldn't normally be there They're financially driven and that's an absolute relevant Variable not to research and that was your question any last words on that one Which part of it any of that you get the last word? I'm good. Let's keep going. All right You say that three-year-olds can know they're born in the wrong body but according to a famous study that I'm sure you're aware of is

53% of mothers of boys with gender identity disorder meet the diagnosis for borderline personality disorder. So I guess my question is what degree do you think those three-year-olds

are the result of mentally ill mothers grooming or suggesting it to them? Or does that study not count because you don't like the conclusion? I want to be honest, I've never seen that study. I 100% know you've seen that study. Every trans person has seen that study. I'm being honest with you. I don't think you're off. Did you say 53%? It's 53%? For the sake of-- Let me finish. For the sake of discussion, let's just posit that it's real.

I think there's a lot of glomming on to this like, the thing is early onset gender dysphoria, so call it three, four, five, six, anywhere in there. When you start socializing, that's what I'm talking about.

Okay, well I have one quick follow-up question. You say a three-year-old can know they're born in the wrong body? I didn't say that. You did. No. Yeah, you did earlier. You did. I don't believe that. Okay, then I don't have a follow-up question. Okay. Let me, since I may have said this inartfully, let me clarify my position.

So I think that when children are very young, a typical transsexual case study goes like this, where the parent will start saying things to their, the child will say things to their parent that they're very uncomfortable with certain things and that they expect to grow up to be a girl. That's just a typical thing in a transsexual case study with early onset gender dysphoria.

You said they ran up to the parent and said, "I'm supposed to be a girl." I just told you what I thought. I'm glad we agree that's totally fictitious. I have a question for T. When people have kids, a portion of that will be abused. If you advocate for people who have kids, knowing a small portion will be abused, are you advocating for child abuse? If not, why would advocating for what Mrs. Wu has, which has less than a 1% rate of the harmful effects you've been appealing to, be considered as advocating for child abuse like you've repeatedly said?

For one, it doesn't have 1%. That just made up. It doesn't have 1%. It's way greater than that. And two is because it is unavoidable, meaning that you are, it is avoidable. You can have children, right? And we have to have children to live and survive and sustain society. Okay. Now you can have children and not allow them to transition. It's an avoidable outcome. And we don't even,

know the severity of the outcome yet and it's way worse than is being suggested so that's the answer it's an avoidable outcome leave the children alone can can a parent go give a child a tattoo on their face when they're 10 no that would be child abuse okay so is transitioning them permanently to something that is permanent that they can't reverse and it'll cause them to potentially be suicidal so the answer is just that it's avoidable advocating for at all is advocating for child abuse

Great debate. My question is for the transgender. Hold on. If you're going to refer to me that way, I'm not interested in talking to you. Thank you. No, that's so different. Okay.

I think this question is like

That's what you are. And you can't accept that? I think the question was about tricking people into thinking that you're a girl and not letting them know. Do you think that's okay? What's it? She didn't want to answer that, so we'll go to the next question. We'll go to the next question. Do you not want to answer that? Okay. We'll go to the next question. Well, obviously it's wrong. How are you doing? I'm sorry, I don't know your name. I'm Brianna. Brianna. Good to see you. I want to ask you both separate questions. Okay.

To you, I want to know, as we know, kids when they're, know that they're transgender is when they are younger, that is true, right? But instead of them, what's called it, taking hormones or puberty blockers, I think wouldn't the solution would be more better if we're not too sure, would be the social transitioning?

and to go ahead let her answer first and go to him absolutely i want to be crystal clear about this and in fact you should actually go very slowly on the social transition which is not innocuous right so absolutely like let the kid experiment with who they are at home don't bring that to school go very slowly give them space to figure out who they are that's the only way to do it so yes i heavily

Enthusiastically endorse exploring with social transition first for as long as you can.

And to the guy, you mentioned trans people being sexual deviants, but wouldn't it actually be the activists, so we'd be saying it's more so the activists who are, I'll say probably sexual deviants in some cases, rather than like being broad and saying all trans people as sexual deviants?

Sure, yeah. I mean, I'm sure there may be an exception, but if we're just going to say what it is out loud, it is sexually driven and it's deviant in nature. And...

No, no. I said, sure, there may be some exceptions. I'm just saying, like, you know, that's realistically, that's what it is. And so that's my take. People can disagree, but maybe there are exceptions or people. How often do you find someone that's like, oh, I want to transition and change gender, and then they don't have any, like, sexual motivation to do so? That never happens. I said three times now that I'm sure there are exceptions. So, like, I don't know.

What to say? I pointed out autogynephilia is literally just about sexual deviancy. That's all it is. It's literally about sexual arousal. The literal researchers would disagree with you. That's the definition of it, being sexually aroused at the idea of being perceived to be a woman. That's how I think about it.

Hi, Brianna, thank you. Wonderful debate, and congratulations on joining the long list of people to beat Whitsitt in a debate. So studies have shown that a higher percentage of neurodivergent are trans than non-neurodivergent, and it also shows that a higher percentage of neurodivergent regret transitioning afterwards. Why do you think so many neurodivergent regret the choice afterwards

And does this mean that there should be different rules for neurodivergence when going through transitioning? Thank you for healthcare-based question that I can respond to with science. This is beautiful. This is what this debate should have been. So the answer is the number of people with autism in the community have skyrocketed. They transition for different reasons than I do. They are a completely new cohort. And to come back to your question about medical research, I am tremendously surprised

I don't want to say I want to stop it but I think we need to make really sure that this is serving them because it does not seem like it does in many cases a lot of these kids with autism like for me I transitioned I went out I got a job my life got much better you know became you know

pay taxes, ran for office, all that stuff. A lot of them literally sit online in these trans communities all day talking to each other.

I, Brianna Wu, cannot evaluate what's going on with them, but I can say that they're having a different trajectory than I did. So if you're a parent and you have a child with autism, my God would my suggestion to you to be go really slowly and make sure whatever healthcare you get that child is not from someone with the progressive agenda. Thank you. I appreciate your answer and well done on the debate. Thank you. So this is for both panelists.

Do you think puberty blockers would be a useful tool to help reduce the regret rate instead of introducing HRT to children? Do you think puberty blockers would be more useful as they are reversible? Yeah. Thank you again for a science-based question. The puberty blockers are not innocuous. There's been a lot of disinformation from the progressive fringe talking about it like they are. It will affect bone density for life. You can kind of get around it with calcium.

But it also slows your growth trajectory. So if you were going to grow up to be like six foot two, you get on puberty blockers, you're going to be much, much lower. So I think these drugs are not innocuous. They're also, this is the big misnomer, they're not covered by insurance. So I don't know how many parents out there can spend $12,000 a year on this stuff, but it's not most parents. So in most,

My opinion, I would say slow down if the child needs more time. Try to just go on HRT and anti-androgens the way that everyone else does. It's child abuse. You think the puberty blockers are child abuse? Yeah, absolutely. For the reasons that were just laid out. That there are irreversible damage to the bone density. That you're literally changing the trajectory of growing. It's...

Just go look. If you want to talk about empathy, go look at the people that are crying nonstop online, wanting to detransition, realizing that these puberty blockers and all this medication that they were given have completely ruined their life and that they will never get it back. So the virtue signaling about empathy is completely empty nonsense, in my opinion. You should not give it to the children. All right. Next.

So I'm kind of curious of the idea of individualized health care and that

comments and conversations about suicidality among trans youth and trans people in general. So you have the suicidality of what happens when there is denying of who you are and that you have to hide yourself and you have to wear a mask too then you have to hide your hands because talking with your hands is feminine. I'm not gonna get made fun of for talking with my hands.

So that version of suicidality. And now I'm curious, once the person transitions, why is there still suicidality there? Was there something else there? And so I'm curious, in hearing when we transition we're still suicidal, depression, anxiety, it's a chemical imbalance. So I'm curious, also from both of you,

I'm curious about that suicidality piece. - Thank you for such an interesting question. So let me, if I can tell you my story. So I had severe social anxiety, I had chemical dependence, I had depression, right?

All those things did not, like I still had to deal with the damage of that after I got the gender dysphoria under control. Additionally, I don't have to tell you, it is tough to figure out the rules of being a girl. It is a lot to figure out. So you're like going out with friends, you're trying to interact with people, you're trying to date boys, like it's a lot of stuff to figure out.

I think that one of the reasons I would be very critical of the Progressive Political Project is they're telling people that if you transition, it's gonna fix all of your problems. And it's not. It's really good for some people, but there's still a lot of work you have to do, and it creates other problems, like that jerk you saw what he was just saying to me a minute ago. That's every day on Twitter. So it's...

You know, that kind of abuse is unfortunately par for the course. Yeah. So it creates a new permanent irreversible problem. And so that obviously has the potential to be a huge source of depression or, you know, suicidal thoughts. Like, we should just be honest about that. I don't know why that's left off the list of things you're naming. It's the biggest one. It's the elephant in the room, you know, like.

It's all fun and games, and you can always decide to go back, right? You could just dress up for a year or two, change your mind. When you realize that you've permanently anatomically changed yourself, for example, right, that's a very intense thing, and that's why children should be nowhere close to these permanent changes. And really the data shows that the suicide rate goes up after reassignment surgery, so...

I don't know. I mean, and then, yeah, probably the other things you named, right? Like just anxiety about the whole entire experience in general isn't gonna just go away, but...

It's interesting that it goes the wrong direction according to the same study you're citing just so people know also shows the overwhelming majority of Transitioners are very happy at their transition just so you know, but thank you So my last comment is is that I wonder if both parts are true There are some individuals who do make the mistake. Then there's other individuals who don't make that mistake so I

There's theories everywhere that says two seemingly opposing ideas can be true at the same time. They are both true. Yeah, but that's why with the severity of the negative, you leave the children out of it. It's a very simple argument. Everyone's like, oh, it's so redundant. Yeah, because it's that simple, right? Even if there's just a percentage, it's such a severe outcome for the negative. You should not do that to kids, man. You should just leave them out of it. Let them be adults.

And I would still say, bro, they need to be careful, right? Like, obviously. Thank you for a smart question. Hi, my question is for Brianna. So do you, I know you were saying you support research into the, you know, the diagnosis and treatment or more research, right? So my question is, would you support research into the causal factors of gender dysphoria? And then do you have any intuition as to what,

If it may be fruitful or what they may be. There was a really interesting study that came out, I think it was 2018, where this is actually, there's a huge end for this, a huge cohort. And they did DNA sequencing of a lot of male to female transsexuals like me and found they're all common markers that we have in our protein receptors for testosterone.

So something is going on there biologically with people like me in how we process testosterone, which to me kind of signals that

I mean, I clearly didn't take to it the way my co-fandalists did. So I really do suspect we're eventually going to find there's a biological factor for it. I think the spicy thing I would say here is if you can find ways to abate this and stop this from happening to people, I would enthusiastically support them. This is not something I would wish on my worst enemy. I would love to see more research into it.

- Yeah, maybe not propagandizing them would be a good start. Can you at least admit that it is, there is a social aspect. - We've been down this, we've been down this, next question. - There's a social aspect of it? 'Cause there is. - We've been down this?

I have two questions. They're both for Brianna. I am on the side, though, that I think that you should leave children out of all kinds of these conversations. You shouldn't give them hormones or anything like that, specifically not in schools. I think that's a big deal. But my first question is, do you think that you are a woman?

I think that trans women are really our own thing, right? I think if you put a gun to my head and say there are two things, I think I'm closer to one than anything. But, I mean, I can't menstruate. I can't have children. I missed a lot of the social stuff growing up. So, no, I don't think so. But I think that I'm much more authentically female than I am male.

Okay, because thank you for saying that because I think today specifically it is a huge issue where trans women are seen as a biological, which I hate saying that word, woman because you're right. You don't have a period. You don't have boobs. You're never going to be able to be pregnant. So that's very frustrating as a woman to see online constantly. But then my second question and then I'm done. Can I just say one thing? I would never call you a biological woman. I would call you a normal woman. I think trans women are the abnormal women.

women in my view. And my last question is though is that how we're kind of talking about like deviant behavior and all you know that kind of stuff it is a direct quote that you say and I certainly don't tell every man I kiss or go on a date with about this the fact that you used to be a man so don't you think that that is kind of deviant that you wouldn't tell someone that? I don't know this quote.

Well, I found it online. You might want to look into that. Yeah. Well, I know, but do you think that that's okay, though, to not have to tell your partner or whoever you're going on a date with that you didn't used to be a man? I don't. I mean, I've been married for 17 years, but no, I don't think that's a good practice. Do you know who Gwendolyn Rucho is?

when a real hoe was a trans woman that was Taken by some men she didn't tell she was trans with and they took her and brutally murdered her over several days in an attic torturing her to death Which was really terrifying and I think men can be really violent on this so I think Disclosure is a good idea. Yeah, you should go to prison if you do that. I

I just see that online, so I just wanted to see if that was actually true or not, just because it is a little crazy. And I'd seen, too, that you were like, well, if I walk into a woman's bathroom, no one would bat an eye. But I mean this with total respect. I would bat an eye because this morning we were in the elevator together and I heard your voice. And I was like, wait. I was kind of confused. I'm not meaning that in a mean way. I'm just saying I would bat an eye at that. So I think that's why in the bathroom situation, that's also an important topic because you can't tell whenever there's someone that's not a woman in there. Sure. I don't talk in the bathroom, so.

Fair enough.

Hey, guys. Thanks so much for this discussion. I know it's a heated topic in our world today. My question is, I used to have body dysmorphia for 11 years in the form of an eating disorder, anorexia and bulimia. I'm now in remission for 11 years. But if someone had given me the option at that point in time to get, like, a gastric bypass surgery, even though I was 90 pounds, I probably would have taken it just to feel, like, relief of the anxiety. How do you see, like, how that equates to the dysmorphia that the trans community experiences? Yeah.

Well, I think the first thing I would say is most trans girls also struggle with bulimia and anorexia. I certainly have, so I really understand what you're talking about. I think the difference is there's no study you can point to with someone that would say

having anorexia and indulging that is a good thing, right? It's obviously not. So the fact that this can make some people's lives better, like that makes it seem very different to me, but maybe does that ring true to you or? - It does, I just wonder if I had been given the option then if I would have taken it, but because I didn't have an option, I had to like do intense mental reconditioning, positioning.

Yeah, I hear you. I don't think doctors should offer that. And again, I'll say it again, I think you should be very careful about offering this to people. I think there needs to be extensive safeguards. Thanks.

We can understand it with that, but not with something as permanent as sexual assault. For Austin specifically, but of course both of you can answer with this. Brianna advised a slow and careful progression for kids, for the parents of children, if they think their child is trans or has experienced dysphoria. It sounds neutral. It sounds like a hybrid approach versus the truly radical, but the problem isn't really the parents, is it?

Essentially, you've got celebrities, you've got activists, you've got online activists, you've got teachers, you've got organizations, and these are radical organizations. They can do a lot of what they do without parental consent in some cases. Under the last administration, they had a lot of legal protection for that as well, state laws and so forth. So what I'm asking you is the neutral position in your opinion, a Trojan horse for the activism? The Trojan horse is... You accept the neutral position and what that allows is the fringe to operate inside. Yeah.

I'm trying to understand your question. You're asking me what I would propose. I'm asking whether or not you think that when we accept a more neutral approach that seems more reasonable, are we leaving the door wide open? Yeah, of course we are, especially in this specific scenario. That's exactly what that is, is a Trojan horse. Because like you said, there's all kinds of propaganda that is pushing it

And dude, let's just call it like it is. Like people don't realize what's going on, but the rate of autism in general is skyrocketing. And I won't talk about why vaccines. So, and then we're also, and then, and then we're also, and then we're also, thank you. Jesus. Okay. So autism is skyrocketing. And then there's no,

They've now found that in transgenderism, autism is very prevalent, very, very prevalent. And so we are now dealing with what you brought up, all this propaganda on top of that. Like it's this social clout now to be trans. We are looking down the barrel of something very, very dangerous. And we are about to see this next generation grow up and regret what was done to them. And people don't seem to realize the actual severity of the magnitude of the numbers that we could possibly see. So

Yes, I think we're opening the door. We should push her back against it altogether. No, we don't slowly abuse our children. We just don't abuse them. If they want to be adults and they do something that's going to be harmful to them, then they have to learn their own way. But yeah, we have to, in fact, I would say the parents need to go out of their way to make sure they're helping explain this to them because of all those other variables that you're saying. So no, we don't slowly abuse the children. No, we don't socially integrate them. All right. Thank you. Next question. Sure.

Well, thank you. That was a great debate. My question that I would like to ask is for Brianna.

In the conversation, Austin, which it brought up, the point of kind of like social conditioning. So the question of like nature versus nurture, what would be like the litmus test to know if someone is being kind of like conditioned to certain kinds of perspectives versus being like a biological situation that they're engaging with? Can you ask that, use a little different words on that? Okay, so...

if someone is actually kind of, how do we know if a child is being like conditioned by like a community that's kind of promoting a certain kind of perspective versus one who really is like authentically going through this just on their own, you know, without like a, you know, a kind of a nurture.

I try not to answer things so I don't know them and I don't know how you detect children that are, we have a psych, we have someone that works as a therapist here. She can probably give a better answer than I do, but clearly therapists should be open to that kind of thing. And I guess before you medicalize children, you should very clearly like know those, the parents, right? Shouldn't medicalize children at all. I know. Thank you very much. Appreciate you.

You think 90% of it is bad? I just don't get it. All right, sir. So, Austin, question for you. During the debate several times you continually brought up that you want to leave children out of it and that you believe that children who are younger than a certain age, I think three was the age that came up, you said that you believe that children of that age don't have any concept of sexuality, relationships, gender identity, none of that. Is this correct?

No, I wouldn't say they have no concept. My daughter knows that she's a girl and that I'm a boy. No, they don't just walk up to you organically at three and say, I'm supposed to be a boy, which was the exact quote. Sure, they may not, but again, it's because they don't have the language for the concept at the time. Your children, I'm assuming you live with your wife. Your children watch you and your wife interact as a married couple, correct? Mm-hmm.

The question is, how can you deny that children don't understand that when your children's first relationship your children receive is between you and your wife? They understand gender identity because they see you as a man and how you interact with your wife. I just said they understand it. Right. And then, but you're saying that they don't organically come up. They don't have to necessarily say it to you. They're understanding. They're living it. Right.

And that's why they understand it. They know it. They don't come up and tell you, I'm in the wrong body. I'm supposed to be a girl. Like a little boy doesn't walk up to the... They're getting that experience because they're seeing your daughter is seeing you as a man act as a man. So if your daughter is saying, well, is this how I'm supposed to be? Or is this, or is mommy how I'm supposed to be? That doesn't happen. That's my point. That doesn't actually happen in reality. And then you're saying, well, they don't have to be able to communicate it to you. You can divine their thoughts.

This is predatory. This always starts flirting with predatory abusive behavior. Like, I think my child probably thinks this. We should probably introduce these concepts to them. It's like, no, my daughter, I had to teach her what being a girl was and I had to show her the difference in a girl and a boy. And she now will say, girl, boy, you know, it's like she doesn't come up to me and say, dad, I'm supposed to be a boy. I had this major revelation that I was misassigned. You know, it's like.

It requires abuse. It requires conditioning from an authoritative position and everyone in this room knows it and we can play this make-believe game that it doesn't but then you say well they can't communicate it so you know just trust me bro. So anyway that's my position. I think it's not a realistic situation. It doesn't happen. That doesn't occur. And also the person saying this thinks vaccines cause autism and the earth is flat just so people know. Okay and I understand basic biology.

All right, well thank you very much for the questions in-house here. Thank you to both debaters up here. Excellent job, appreciate it very much. Kept me on my toes and paying attention. Before I let anybody go, once again, as James had mentioned, one of our sponsors is Manifold. There were 30 of you who voted prior to us getting into the open discussion. Request that only if you voted the first time you vote the second time here.

First one, who thinks Brianna made the more convincing argument during this debate? Give me one second. Okay. Let me write this down. And while I'm writing this down, who thinks Whitsitt made the better argument? Okay.

Interesting, interesting. For those who remember, 30 votes to begin with, 12 said Brianna was going to convince them or keep them on that side, 18 Whitsitt. Brianna increased by two votes when it was all done up to 14. Whitsitt dropped to 14. So ended up being a dead heat there. So with that, it is now about a quarter after. James, what time are we going to start the next one?

Okay, we've got 15 minutes. 15 minutes to use the restroom. Go get something to drink. Thank you very much. Enjoy.

My watch says we've gone three miles. This app is like having a personal trainer. Yeah, but those apps collect a lot of your personal data. Aren't you worried? Really? That's creepy. How do I stop that? You should go to privacy.ca.gov to learn about your privacy rights and get on the best path to protect your privacy. You think they could help us get up this next hill? One step at a time. Californians have the strongest privacy protections in the country. Go the extra mile to protect your information. Learn more at privacy.ca.gov.