June Oscar on First Nations gender justice
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We're women, we are women who love this land. We are women who don't fear reaching out and asking for advice from each other. And I think we do that far more easily than the men. And I think that if there's a group of people that's going to bring real change in this country, it will be through the women.

Dr June Oscar is a proud Bunabar woman from the remote town of Fitzroy Crossing in Western Australia's Kimberley region.

I've come to know June because she now leads the First Nations Gender Justice Institute at the Australian National University. And of course, ANU is home to the Global Institute for Women's Leadership here in Australia. And we have the Sister Institute at King's College London. It was a real delight to join June for the launch of her institute earlier this year.

In this podcast, we talk about her remarkable career, which has taken her from a cattle station in a tiny Western Australian town to serving a five-year term as the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Social Justice Commissioner. The story of how she got from there to all of her many achievements is a truly inspiring one.

And a great theme that June talks about is hope. And I think for reconciliation in Australia, hope is such an important emotion, aspiration, word. I hope you enjoy this conversation. I most certainly did.

June, such a delight to have you with me for the podcast. Thank you, Julia. Great to connect again. We were together in March at the Australian National University for the launch of your institute, and we're going to talk about that. But I really want to start right back at the very beginning. You were born in the Kimberleys. Can you tell me a little bit about your mother, your father, the place where you were born? Yeah, sure. I was born in the Kimberleys.

And as, you know, all of our stories are, we have our histories, our places of, you know, that holds all of the memories that, you know, makes us who we are. So my beginnings started here in Fitzroy Crossing in the Kimberley, which is the southernmost point of Bunuba country, if you like. It's the...

Moai, it's the country of the Dangu people who are part of the Bonobo Nation. My mother was living on a cattle property called Brookings Springs and

And she was part of the domestic workforce. So I grew up, I was born in Fitzroy Crossing at the old AIM hospital, the Australian Inland Mission that Flynn helped to set up in these remote parts of Australia. And...

There was a hospital staffed by nurses and a visiting doctor. So I was born there in 1962. That's right on the banks of the Fitzroy River and then returned some weeks later with my mother to Brookings Springs.

So my father took myself and my mother to the police station and dropped us at the trackers camp. Then my mother went across the creek to the mission camp

or mission establishment that the United Aborigines Mission people had established and there were numbers of Aboriginal people who were seeking refuge and safe haven at the mission and became workers of the missionaries and

And so we stayed there and I can remember being there up until, well my memories are myself being three years of age and being at the mission from when I was born before my mother returned her and I out to Australia.

Leopold Downs Station, where my grandmother and my uncles and the rest of my family were, again, domestic and stockmen working to the managers of that property. So, you know, pretty rough beginnings, but that's, you know, that's what happened.

Certainly not an easy start in life, certainly not an easy start. It left you being raised in what seems to me like a matriarchy with your mother and your grandmother, you know, very involved in your care as you were young. And so with that strong role modelling, your mother and your grandmother, when did it first occur to you that boys and girls were treated differently? Oh, well, you're right. We're

my mother and grandmother being the primary

you know, caregivers parenting and raising me and who are my absolute strength. You know, they were my first teachers. They taught me everything I know. And my first language is Bonobo, then having to learn English later on. But they were the people that were responsible for guiding my development as a child.

and on to, you know, passing. So everything I know comes from them. In our culture and the way we're raised, boys often...

are with their mothers and fathers and grandmothers, and we both share in that space around the caregiving and the teaching by our mothers and grandmothers. Up until a certain age, the boys are then taken and guided by the male members of our family around...

knowledge and practice and understanding that boys need to learn until they're of age to go into ceremony, to go into manhood. And so we then really part company as siblings once they reach that age. But we're both cared for and nurtured by men

by our mother and grandmothers until that time, if you like.

And your early education is really a story of separation in many ways, isn't it? I've read that you were taken from your family and you went to a mission for your early education and that was 80 kilometres away from your home, from your mother, from your grandmother. You were living in dormitories.

And then you were identified as a very bright young girl. I'm sure you were a very bright young girl. And you then went to Perth for secondary school. Can you tell us a bit about that time, about those separations, how you felt at the time and also in the...

Those schools, were you taught things about what your role would be? Were you taught that a woman needed to be in the world in a certain way? For sure. Look, I can't remember the actual event when it took place, when we were removed or taken from our mother. I think...

It was too traumatising for me that I've just placed it somewhere in my memory and I can't pull it out, it seems. But I can remember the very first night in the dormitory, sleeping between cold sheets and in the dark and just everything about it was foreign to me.

And I cried and cried and cried all through the night. And a cousin who was older was in a bed next to me and she helped me to hop in to bed with her. I think I was about five years of age then. I couldn't understand what I was doing there, why I was there. And

Other girls who were there just kept saying to me, "You cried a lot." I mean, for goodness sake, I was five years of age, first time away from my mother and just didn't have any idea what was happening to me. Eventually, you know, made to feel some comfort and care with the other girls that were there.

I settled and made friends and we all started to support each other to understand and know that we can care for each other until we were back in the arms of our mothers again. So I focused on school and it was the Fitzroy Crossing program.

primary school, it was a government school several hundred metres down from the UAM dormitory, girls dormitory. And so along with my peers, you know, we were very fortunate. We had some very good non-Indigenous teachers and Indigenous teachers in the school.

we were encouraged to understand and learn numeracy and literacy. I loved learning English. I was fascinated by it. Really enjoyed books and reading and storytelling and it...

it goes on and I've listened to my peers um you know share with me these days you know we're all in our 60s and mid-60s and and they say to me thank god I can read I learned to read thank god we had the types of teachers who fought for our right to an education and they and they did fight um

As an adult, I've had conversations with our first principal of the school and him sharing with me the nonsense he put up with in fighting against bureaucracy and others who were part of the decision-making space.

for us to have a right to the level of education and how he wanted to assemble the best team to provide that to us. And he had the trust of many Aboriginal people who came and said, here's my child, teach him for me, look after him for me. And he shared with me some of those things. I'm very thankful for

to John Newman for the role that he played in fighting for all of us kids.

Wow, absolutely. And so you're in the girls' dormitory, but you were being educated boys and girls in the classroom. And then later you went on to secondary school in Perth. I mean, what did you imagine your life would be at that point? What job did you imagine for yourself? And did it in any way feel that there were certain jobs that were the kinds of jobs that women did or that

that only Indigenous women did? Did you have that sense that you only had a limited set of choices or did you have a sense that perhaps life could take you on some unexpected pathways? Oh, well, interestingly, you know, what we saw played out in front of us as kids, you know, our mothers and grandmothers and aunties were all housemaids and

you know, worked on their own country as workers in the big house, in the manager's house. And I thought, oh, well, I want to do that. I want to learn to cook. I want to learn to work in there. I didn't see it in its inequality, really.

and injustice, I just thought, oh, well, I want to do that. I want to be like them. And they were very good at it. They were very good at it. And, you know, as I got older, I thought, well, hang on, I really like working in an office. And so I thought,

I'm good at talking to people and I can become better at that and I want to be a secretary. And so my early years and studies after secondary school...

took me down that path where I had excelled in my learning, where I did end up working in an office and my first job was...

as a telephonist for the state government offices in South Hedland after college. And then I returned to Derby and worked for the Aboriginal Legal Services of Western Australia as a receptionist and typist because I did very well in speed typing. So I enjoyed that. I did that and I continued on working for government agencies in that kind of role.

And you and I are around the same age, so I'm going to feel the need to say to our younger listeners, before computers there were these things called typewriters. You'll probably be able to go and see one in a museum. And there used to be a job of receptionist and telephonist because putting people through to the right line in the office was actually an art

form, not something that people have to worry about these days, but I'm absolutely with you on all of that. I spent a fair bit of time typing myself in my early years and

But you did return to your community and you became Deputy Director of the Kimberley Land Council. When I studied your CV, June, and thought about this podcast, I knew there was no way in the world that

we were going to be able to talk about all of the remarkable things that you've done and the many times you were the first woman or the first Indigenous person to do them. But I do want to take you to a few highlights.

I want to take you to 1991 when you were in this deputy director role. You were 29 and the then Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, a man called Robert Tickner, rang to offer you a position on the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission, the federal government body at that stage that was the peak advisory body for First Nations peoples to the Australian government.

Now, is it true you hung up on him because you thought it was a hoax? That's so true. That's correct. It was a busy day in the organisation...

that I worked in called Marawarawara, Aboriginal Resource Agency in Fitzroy Crossing, and it was payday. So we were, you know, processing payments, we were responding to queries, and it was so busy. And this person rang and said, oh, hi, it's Robert Tickner, um,

you know, the Federal Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, blah, blah. And I just thought, oh, yeah, this is someone having a go. Someone playing a trick. Yeah, and I hung up on him.

And I said to the man next door to me, who was non-Indigenous and the head of the organisation, I said, oh, someone's just rung me and said he was Robert Tickner. And, you know, that's someone pulling my leg. And, yeah, so... And he rang again. And he said... And I thought, oh, OK, it is the real deal here. And this is Minister Tickner, so...

Yeah, then had a chat with him and he expressed his invitation to me for me to consider being one of his three appointments to ATSIC at the time, chaired by the late Lower Joe Donoghue. And I just said to him... That is a fantastic story. I said to him, I need to go and talk to some people.

before I can give you an answer and they were the you know the senior people in my community the old men and ladies and I had to tell them that this offer was being made they thought that I was going to be moving to Canberra and they said no you can't go we need you here

And so I said, no, it's not for me to go to live in Canberra. It's an invitation to attend meetings in Canberra over a certain period of time. And then they said, yeah, OK, do that. You can help to raise issues from our community. So, yeah, I told him, yes, I would accept that.

The invitation. Well, thank goodness he made that second call. I think there'd probably be some government ministers who'd get hung up on and wouldn't try again, but we're very grateful he made that second call.

And, of course, you went on to serve in a really very major appointment in government as the first woman to be appointed the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander and Social Justice Commissioner of the Australian Human Rights Commission. But your pathway to that role, which you were appointed to in 2017...

took you through so many remarkable jobs. You've been a filmmaker, you've run a cattle station, you've served in all sorts of representative capacities. I mean, is there in your mind a thread that joins these various career highlights and occupations together? What made you think when you were doing something like filmmaking that perhaps

you would end up running a cattle property? I think you're right. They're all interconnected and they speak to the many and varied... The whole story of our existence and different periods in time...

Where I was, you know, and I grew up on Bunuba country, which became a pastoral property when colonisation came into the Kimberley area.

much for the defence by Bunuba people against that arrival through Jandamara and the Bunuba people, and we've written about that in Jandamara and the Bunuba resistance. The land itself,

is country that we and our generations of families going back to time immemorial have occupied. We hold the stories and the knowledges of that country. So being on country and looking at how nations

Now, in this modern reality, we can be engaging in different forms of development and economic development, but also allowing us to have a presence on that country and to continue to look after the country and care for it as part of our family. So I thought it was important to be...

in the cattle business, in, you know, sitting, chairing the Bonobo Cattle Company at the time and making sure that, you know, we did well in that economic development time.

but also looking at the cultural significance of country and how do we continue to ensure access and use and responsibility for Bonobo people on these cattle properties. So being on country and looking after country

remembering and reconnecting with our people that have passed on. We relive the moments we shared with them out on country, so that's important for us so we don't forget. But we also...

look at well, what are the other spaces that's important for us to be engaging in to share understanding and knowledge around what are our priorities and so for me it was around continuing to elevate our voices and our presence and

and across spaces where you know they were important to us so so language and law and culture and land ownership but looking at economic development looking to hold space in the cultural interface between Aboriginal Australia and non Aboriginal Australia and to

to contribute to that space through creating relationships and sharing information and knowledge and not compromising who we are, but to say we have occupied this space since time immemorial through our ancestors. We are part of the continuous civilisation, the oldest continuous civilisation on earth

we have an important contribution to make to non-Aboriginal people's understanding without threat, without fear and for us to feel that we can hold ourselves strong and proud with integrity and dignity and

And we can create better understandings and relationships. We just have to create those spaces to do that. And I thought for myself as one person, that was something that was important to me. So how can I help to bring the divide

between us closer. And I think there's so many things that speaks to our humanity that makes matters that we might feel are different, but actually it's common and shared. And how do we come together with that kind of mindfulness around there's so many things in common that we hold as human beings. Absolutely. Absolutely.

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I mean, you used your role as commissioner to do exactly that, to bring people together and to elevate voices. You travelled right around the country. You went to around 50 Aboriginal communities. You literally spoke to thousands of women. And then you brought their voices in a report that

to federal parliament and to the nation in December 2020. Can you tell us a bit about that experience, travelling and talking to women and then articulating on their behalf what is needed for all of us to join together for a better shared future?

Yeah, when I look back at it and I thought, oh, wow, I jumped on about 300 flights, you know, to get to some of these places. How did I do that? When, I think, as you would appreciate, when you're doing something that's real and has such purpose and depth and benefits for so many people,

We tried to work out how's the best way to include as many people into this conversation and to hear from them and be guided by them. So that being the focus, we wanted to reach women in all of our diversity across the country and to some of those places where they're often overlooked by

you know, national engagement processes driven by timelines, by government agencies. And they miss so many people and they miss some real quality information and advice around how members of our community are thriving and growing.

living out in different locations across this great country of ours. So we visited women in the city communities, in urban spaces. We know that there's a myth that...

People who live in many of these developed places have access to far more services. Well, that's not true in many of these cases. They still struggle to access services and supports, which you would assume they would have ready access to.

I think we're getting better at that now and that scenario is changing. But we went to some of these regional towns, you know, places like Mildura in Barkindji country and engaged with people who were impacted by huge developments in, you know, one of the food producing centres in this country. Well, how are people...

coping with all of that? What are their stories? So we met with young people in the schools there and women of all generations around the community. We went out to places like, you know, the Torres Straits where...

they're out of sight, out of mind. We went to one of the furthest islands, Saibai, which is seven minutes on an outboard dinghy from Papua New Guinea. You can see the huts on the shoreline of Papua New Guinea. And we sat with women and

heard their stories and witnessed the rising tides caused by climate change and the inundation that's happening there and sadly before too long that will be one of the islands that will disappear because of this so we sat in places like that I was the first Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander social justice commissioner to visit Murray Island

the birthplace of Native Title. Visited Koiki Mabo's grave, his resting place, welcomed by some of the remaining plaintiffs from the Mabo case and sat with communities and returned to their communities to engage with women and engage with the menfolk as well on the side with some of their issues.

But we went to places like Yalata, very near where the atomic nuclear thing took place in your home state. Yes, yes, the nuclear testing. Yes, and sat with women, young women there, and listened to them through the involvement and support of interpreters.

and listen to what they had to say. We also, Julia, important for me to note, we also included in these national engagements the engagement with gender diverse mob in our community that often are overlooked in these gendered engagement processes. So it was the first time that, you know...

women in the Northern Territory, the sister girls in the Tiwi Islands and gender diverse mobs of all different age groups came and said, thank you, this is the first time ever we've been included in a national engagement process that's focused on women. And I was just so sad to hear that that has been...

their experience. And so I have made it absolutely clear that gender diverse mob need to be engaged with in this space. They need to be raising the issues that are their priorities from their lived experience. And so I'm really proud of the work that we've done in that space too.

a very inclusive process to hear from as many. And we also received, you know, hundreds of submissions from organisations contributing to the questions that we were asking women. And we took a very strong human rights-based approach to the engagements. We asked women, you know, what it is that...

enable them to achieve the things that they're achieving at community, family, organisational levels and what were the things that were causing them frustration and then thirdly, what is it that they needed to see happen to bring change

change into those spaces. And women talked about, and girls talked about, you know, the need for their right to agency, their right to be co-deciding and co-designing, their right to their voices from their lived experiences.

and the right for them to be respected, their voice to be respected in this space. Yes. And, of course, you are continuing... I mean, you've changed role, you've moved beyond the role of being a commissioner, but you're continuing this important work now.

at the First Nations Gender Justice Institute, which I had the very great honour of being there for the launch with you earlier this year. The institute is at the Australian National University and, of course, the Global Institute for Women's Leadership is there too with its sister institute at King's College London.

I know one of the themes of the Institute is looking at women's role in peace building, the way that First Nations women are really activists in peace building globally, nationally and locally within communities. And I wondered whether you wanted to say a few words about that, that peace building role and what you want to achieve with the Institute. Thank you.

Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, it's a topic that's so relevant for all of us. The holidays are all about sharing with family. Meals, couches, stories, grandma's secret pecan pie recipe. And now you can also share a cart with Instacart's Family Carts.

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All of these different countries and spaces are leading in the space of, as peacekeepers, peacemakers, responding to the existing conflict and, you know, discord that's taking place, we see, internationally. But within our own country, I think...

you know, First Nations women can have some real role in building peace and bringing understandings in such a way that respects individuals in reforming, reflecting and reforming and changing behaviours and attitudes, filling their minds with far more...

caring mindfulness around how we can do this. People are, you know, living and carrying intergenerational trauma, individual trauma, and there's so much that impacts the lives of everyone on a daily basis here. And

That really places stresses on people and their ability to cope and manage themselves and their relationships with others.

So when I've sat with women, I've really listened to how First Nations women are addressing this. And some of these leaders in the space are using their knowledges based on the customary law framework and the kinship and relationship thread that's embedded in our way of living and reminding individuals that we have...

responsibility and obligation and expectations that others care for us, but we need to be actioning, living and displaying all of that ourselves. So, you know, I've listened to that being the approach that First Nations women are taking and they're helping us

to present themselves as the carers and leaders that are uniquely positioned to address conflict and foster reconciliation and maintain social harmony. And when I look at this and I think of the investments that we could be making into the social fabric of

of community life, of national community life. We've really totally neglected the investment into the social fabric of what keeps us as Australians supported but enabled to do the things that are important to us

renewing and re-strengthening each other and having a far more healthier, respectful and reconciled relationship with each other. And June, looking at your work, I mean, you've talked about how Aboriginal women, Aboriginal communities want agency, how people want respect.

Is that the pathway that takes us to reconciliation, that moves us beyond where we ended up with the voice referendum last year? Yeah, look, I think we're all recovering from what I feel, and, you know, this is my view about it. It was a real missed opportunity for the nation, a real missed opportunity.

But, you know, I'm optimistic, Julia, about the future because I see the empowerment of First Nations women as a key opportunity to meaningful change. You know, we are strong. We have to carry hope.

and hope gives us the ability to lead, to care and to advocate for our communities. And that's always been our greatest strength. We never lose hope and we continue to push for recognition and equality and, you know,

bringing in the allies, the sisters to work with us and to walk with us. And, you know, I'm very grateful for the many people that I'm able to sit and share with my young team of staff at the ANU in the Institute. And

the huge support that we receive and we enjoy from so many that absolutely believe in our right to self-determination and how our voices can be

included in all of these different spaces. And we don't lose sight of our right to our identity, you know, as First Nations women, as Australian women, and that we live in a great country and there's so many opportunities here for us. And some of those opportunities, if they don't exist, we go and create them. And we know that we have some fantastic relationships

in our organisations with each other that can enable us to achieve that for the young women, the young girls coming behind. It's fantastic to hear you talk about hope and having hope. I'm grateful for that.

Where we always end this podcast is with a quote from Virginia Woolf. And the quote that I have for you comes from her book, To the Lighthouse. And Virginia Woolf writes, what is the meaning of life?

That was all a simple question, one that tended to close in on one with years. The great revelation had never come. The great revelation perhaps never did come. Instead, there were little daily miracles, illuminations, matches struck unexpectedly in the dark.

And that quote made me think of you and your work because of all of the time you've been out there talking to women, talking to communities and finding, I'm sure, daily miracles, illuminations, matches struck unexpectedly in the dark. Do those words resonate with you? Mm. They do. And I think we continue to...

celebrate each of our achievements, as small as they are, they mean something in terms of, you know, the steps we make going forward. The right to be who we are as First Nations women in this country, the opportunities we have to create wonderful things that can make life that little bit easier for people,

Even when times are challenging, we find those spaces of beauty and care and the love we have for each other and the belief that we don't

stay here in this space of deficit, of hopelessness, we can and we do find those points where the windows can open to let in light and fresh air and that really comes deep into our soul to...

to drive us to pursuing what we need to pursue next, to deliver us out of this space of...

you know, of hopelessness. And we need people to understand that they don't know each of our stories, that those stories belong to us, and it's a privilege when we do share, because there's so many assumptions being made about someone knowing your story better than you and that you are this and not that.

And unfortunately, sometimes we hear that from the men in our community, that you are this, you are that. Well, everyone has their story. Everyone knows their story and knows what's important. And, you know, you've been a wonderful example and leader for us to look up to and take on.

encouragement and strength from your journey too as a leader in our country Julia and we're women we are women who love this land we are women who can who don't fear reaching out and asking for advice from each other and I think we do that far more easily than the men and I think that's

If there's a group of people that's going to bring real change in this country, it will be through the women. What a fantastic concluding sentence, June. I've so enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for joining me on a podcast of one's own. Thank you for the opportunity. I look forward to catching up next time.

A podcast of one's own is created by the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at the Australian National University, Canberra, with support from our sister institute at King's College, London. Earnings from the podcast go back into funding for the institute, which was founded by our host, Julia Gillard, and brings together rigorous research, practice and advocacy as a powerful force to advance gender equality and promote fair and equal access to leadership.

Research and production for this podcast is by Becca Shepard, Alice Higgins and Alina Ecott, with editing by Liz Kean from Headline Productions. If you have feedback or ideas, please email us at giwl at anu.edu.au.

To stay up to date with the Institute's work, go to giwl.anu.edu.au and sign up to our updates or follow us on social media at Jewel ANU. You can also find a podcast of one's own on Instagram.

The team at A Podcast of One's Own acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. Thanks for listening, and we hope you'll join us next time.

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