AEE 2395: 3 Conversation Mistakes and How to Avoid Them with Matt Abrahams
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This is an All Ears English podcast, episode 2395. Three conversation mistakes and how to avoid them with Matt Abrahams.

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In today's episode, I interview Stanford lecturer Matt Abrahams, and he tells us the three most common mistakes that people tend to make in conversations, how to avoid them, and what to do instead. Listen in today.

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Hello, Matt. Welcome to All Ears English. I'm excited to have you on the show. Lindsay, it is awesome to be with you on your show. We've done lots of things together and I'm excited to do this with you. Yes, absolutely. I'm going to take a minute and introduce you to the audience. So listeners, today I have Matt Abrahams on the show.

Matt is the host of the Think Fast, Talk Smart podcast. He's also a lecturer in strategic communication at Stanford University's Graduate School of Business and is the author of the book Think Faster, Talk Smarter. Welcome again, Matt. Glad you're here.

Super excited to be with you. Thank you. Yes. So a lot of our listeners, I know that you've had a lot of experience, obviously out in the world, being in conversation through your career, probably presenting at conferences, meeting people at conferences, talking with students, and also now hosting your podcast, which of course is all about conversations.

So I'm really curious to know today from you, what are three conversation mistakes that you've seen people make? And more importantly, Matt, how can we avoid those mistakes? Does that sound like a good topic to get into today? Sounds like a great topic to get into. And I have to tell you, I still make these mistakes myself as I'm out in the world. So three big mistakes people make.

First, people tend to make the conversation about themselves. It's not about you. It's about the other person.

Conversation is an opportunity to connect and learn from other people. And so you need to make sure that you include them in it. It's not just a one-way broadcast. So that's mistake number one. Mistake number two. I just want to ask you a couple of questions. I'm going to jump right in before we move on to the second one. I was going to give all three while I remembered them, but it's okay. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Well, we'll go through them one by one if you're okay with that. Yeah. So, so this is, this is similar as I was a guest on your show recently, we talked a little bit about the importance of focusing on something else other than ourselves. Yeah. Let's go through that, Matt. I mean, so getting the focus off of ourselves, not talking about ourselves too much. How does that make our listener kind of feel when we do talk about ourselves?

I mean, what's your experience here? Absolutely. So when we talk about ourselves, it can be disengaging for the other person. It can be seen as being bragging or nervous because you don't want to go out and ask a question of somebody else because you don't know how that'll be. So there are a lot of perceptions that people have of you when you just talk about yourself. Now, it makes a lot of sense that we might be inclined to do that. One, we know ourselves.

Two, we feel in conversation we have to talk. What better to talk about than something I know well? But actually conversations are really about connection. I know connection and not perfection is a mantra for you. One of the things that I would challenge people to think about is that the word communication comes from the origin of the word is to make comments.

And the way you make something common is by actually discussing it with other people. I don't make it common by just throwing it out into the world. So the whole purpose of communication is that connection, is that searching for commonality. And the only way you do that is if we both contribute. So how can you do this easily? You asked me to give some bits of advice. One great way is to ask questions.

When I ask a question, I invite you in. A conversation is a series of invitations I make to you, you make to me.

A question is a great way to do it. Another way is to bring up a topic that is shared. So I could point to or refer to something that's in the environment. I started an amazing conversation with somebody who became a good friend waiting in line, a buffet line at a conference. - Oh, that's nice. Yeah, I love that. - I didn't know anybody. I didn't know anybody. He didn't either. And I looked at him and I noticed a lot of people in the room were wearing blue and they weren't uniforms. It was just a coincidence. I said, wow.

I didn't get the message saying I was supposed to wear blue. He looked around and he said, me either. And that started the conversation. We talked about where did you come from? Why are you here? We are now good friends. And whenever I travel to where he lives, I try to visit him. So pointing to something in the context, using questions, these are ways to invite the other to have a conversation with you. And when you do that, you are truly meeting the definition of what a conversation is.

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Yeah, I love it. Let me ask you a question. So we talk about this a lot for our conversation clubs with our listeners. And we use the term me monster, right? So don't be a me monster, right? Don't be someone that always talks about yourself. Do you think that what are your thoughts on inter if someone just goes on and on and on and talks about themselves from the listener's perspective from the one trying to be in conversation? What are your thoughts on interrupting?

that person and kind of, or do you feel like that becomes essentially kind of a speaking match kind of? What are your thoughts on that? So I believe it is appropriate to interrupt to move the conversation in a direction you want, but I have a very specific way I suggest you interrupt. Yes. I believe one of the most vital and important communication skills anybody can develop is paraphrasing.

Paraphrasing is where you take what somebody has said, some version of it in your own words, and you name it, and then you can do so much with it. So the way I like to interrupt if I have to,

is I simply highlight something of interest or value that the other person has said, and I name it, and then I take it somewhere else. So I might... Let's imagine you and I having a conversation, and you're sharing with me about your vacation. And you are going on and on about all these things in your vacation. And I might be interested, but you've now talked for a long time. Yes. I might interrupt, and I might say...

A sauna. That's really interesting. You know, the last trip I took, I tried a sauna for the first time. I've interrupted you, but I did so by valuing something you've said. So I do think it's appropriate to interrupt. And I think using a paraphrase is a great tool to politely do that. I love that. That is a fantastic answer.

uh strategy because people are they feel heard i'm sure that the person who has been speaking a lot does feel heard and as you said valued but it's your way to pivot onto you having a chance to speak and share something so good all right so matt the first one is don't you know avoiding talking about ourselves too much that is the first mistake talking about ourselves too much what would be our second mistake in conversation that you've seen

Yeah. So it's related. All three of mine are related to each other. Many of us feel intense pressure to be really interesting in conversation because we think that's what's going to keep people talking to us. I was very fortunate to have lots of really amazing guests, including yourself on my show. And I interviewed a woman named Rachel Greenwald. And Rachel is an academic.

but she's also a professional matchmaker. And she gave me this phrase that I always have in my head when I'm having a conversation. The goal of a good conversation is to be interested, not interesting. And when you focus on that, it changes everything. And I think we use the wrong analogy. Many of us see conversations as a tennis match where I want to ace the ball over the net and get a score. And in fact,

It's all about, do you know that game hacky sack where it's a little beanbag ball? Oh yeah. I remember. And the whole goal is to keep the ball off the ground. So it's in my best interest to toss it to you in an easy way so you can toss it back to me. Yeah. So if we reframe it as hacky sack where we're helping each other, what it means is I'm asking you lots of questions. It means that I'm giving you space to answer my mother-in-law.

had a black belt in conversation she was amazing and here's her secret after somebody said something she would pause and she would use three words tell me more

What a wonderful way to get somebody sharing more information, showing you're interested by giving them extra space. Many of us feel pressure to jump right on and say, oh, I got something to say or I got something to say. But if you listen and you pause. So asking questions, giving space for more information. That's how we avoid that trap of.

of feeling like I have to say something so valuable that you're gonna go away and remember this for years. - Yes, I love that. That's very inspiring to hear about your mother-in-law. I love that. So pausing and asking and saying, tell me more. Are there any other English phrases we might use that our listeners could use then in that moment that kind of mean the same thing or would serve the same function?

So in terms of serving the same function, asking a follow-up question, saying things like, I'm curious to learn more. What more can you tell me about that?

Or asking a specific question like, how did that play out? Or what came next? So these are all questions that invite the person to continue and they signal that you're interested. I love it. You know, many people come to conversation as thinking like the other person speaking is just what I have to go through in order to get my turn to talk again, which is totally the wrong approach. And that gets us back to that being about me and not you getting out of that me box, which I really like. Yeah.

Yes, that is that's so important to know. So the first mistake, the second mistake is not being interested in the person we're speaking with, right? That is the goal to learn more about who we're speaking to. Love it. Correct. Yeah. What would be the third thing, Matt?

The third mistake that you see.

And there are two primary different, two types of terms. There is a supporting term and a switching turn. A supporting turn is just like what we've talked about where I keep you on the same topic and we keep focused on the same topic. A switching turn is where we switch to a different topic. Let me give you an example. Let's go back to the vacation you took to Hawaii or pretend you took one and you're talking to me. And then it's logical for me to respond.

A supportive turn might be say, oh, tell me where you went or which beach did you find the most favorite? That's keeping on the same topic. You might, another version is you tell me about your trip and I say, oh, I also took a trip and I went to Costa Rica. So I have now switched topics. What the mistake many people do is they do too many switches. Hmm.

So the conversation is bouncing all over the place. And we have all been part of conversations that feel like, where am I? And we get dazed and confused. Yes. And what the research says is that you should have a blend of switching and supporting with more supporting turns than switching turns.

And what they measure is people's satisfaction with the conversation. So you come away and say, that was a good conversation. Now, what you are rating good that they don't ask people. Some people might be, I learned something. Some people might say, I feel like I know the person better. But the question was, was it a good conversation? And more people report good conversations when there are more supporting turns than switching turns.

And I think we've all been part of conversations where we just feel like this conversation is going in all the different directions. And as somebody who might not have the cultural context or the language skills, I think it even gets more complicated. So the thing to keep in mind is more supporting where I'm encouraging you to stay on the topic versus switching, but you don't want them all just supporting or all just switching. So it's just keeping in mind and

And it's that awareness that leads to better conversations. Interesting. Why do you think people do this? The balance gets kind of out of whack and they end up doing more switching turns. And like you said, a conversation feels all over the place. Where's that tendency coming from?

from? I think it comes back from the first communication issue conversation challenge I mentioned, I think we just feel more comfortable talking about ourselves and things we know. Because if if you start taking the conversation one direction, I might know less, and that feels very uncomfortable. And I'm not sure where you're taking it. So if I switch it back to something I know, and I'm comfortable with, then I can feel better.

but that's at the expense of the quality of our conversation. - Right, of course. And it feels like there's really a place for curiosity here, cultivating a sense of curiosity and it's empathy too. It's wanting to know who is this person in front of me? What is their life like? What is their perspective on the world like, right?

I often, you know, you have your mantras. I have several as well. And one that I constantly say is it's all about curiosity and empathy. You have to be curious enough about what the other person is experiencing, needs to know, and then empathetic enough to change your communication to address it. So you're absolutely right. So when you, you know, conversations, a lot of people dread small talk and chit chat.

I love it because so many wonderful things happen. I challenge everybody who says, "I don't like small talk." I say, "Think about your friend network, not your online friends, but your real friends." My hunch is at least one of them you met in some way, shape or form through small talk. Of course. Of course. Right. It brings valuable things to us.

And there are things we can do by demonstrating curiosity and empathy to really connect, collaborate and learn. And so we just have to remind ourselves that this is not a competition. This is not a daunting task. This is simply being curious and open and good things can happen.

Yes, I love that. That is super important, Matt. So just to recap your three mistakes that we want to avoid, and we've talked about how to go about avoiding those, make sure we're not talking about ourselves too much. We want to avoid that. We want to make sure that we are interested and not trying to be interesting.

And we want to make sure we are using more supporting turns rather than switching turns. So we're staying on the topic and asking additional questions instead of saying what I did and I went here and I did that and switching the conversation topic. Is there any final piece of advice, Matt, that you'd like, broad piece of advice that you'd like to offer our listeners around having good conversations?

Beyond general curiosity, the overall curiosity and empathy, I think it's really important to be engaging as well. And there are ways to engage. So I can just broadcast information. I can just put out information or I can ask questions or I can use analogies or I can use very vivid, descriptive language.

And all of that makes the conversation more rich. It stimulates more sentence, the senses. So as I'm having a conversation, I try to use these different tools so that it's more enjoyable for me and more enjoyable for you and hopefully more memorable and will want you to have a future conversations with me. So that's,

It can be hard, especially when you're learning a language for the first time or a new context or culture. But as you get more comfortable, you can think about, is there a story here I could share? Or is there a comparison I can use? Or is there some way I can ask a question? One of my favorite questions is, what would it be like if? Or imagine what's possible. Because

You have an experience of that. When I say imagine what it would be like, you actually see that in your mind's eye. All of a sudden you're engaged in a different way than if I just told you. So there are a whole bunch of engagement tools that I think make conversations much richer, stickier and inviting.

But they're second order. You first have to be comfortable with doing some of the things we talked about before. But that's where I would take people next. Love it. Love it. So speaking of that, Matt, where can our listeners find you online to learn more about your podcast or your book or what you're working on?

Excellent. Well, thank you. So the podcast is Think Fast, Talk Smart. We are all about communication skills and career building and leadership. FasterSmarter.io. FasterSmarter.io takes you to a whole bunch of richness of materials we have.

activities we have, and we actually have English language learning content for each of our episodes. We give one noun, one verb, one descriptor, and then one idiom in every language. So we're hoping to help people who are newer to English as well. All right. Sounds great. Well, thank you for being on the show and thanks for bringing these mistakes. Such good points to think about today. Thank you, Matt. Thank you, Lindsay. Keep up the great work. All right. Hope to have you on again soon. Thank you. Bye. Thanks.

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