#AIS: Antonio Garcia Martinez & Glenn Greenwald debate Ukraine, moderated by David Sacks
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All right, this segment is on ukraine, and we have recall in the ukraine debate because we have two great writers and thinkers up here who are on slightly different sides of this issue of the U. S. Involvement, ukraine and internet.

Garcia Martinez writes, is the author of the best in books chaos monkey is about slim valley he writes um a sub stack called poor request and also has a great call and show and glen Green wall is greed all is back with us from yesterday also a phenomenal writer has an amazing subject of you guys should check out as well and a great coin show so in setting up this topic, let me to say I think you know that um you know thinking about the U S. Involved in ukraine um know there's not a lot of debate about this topic and in that sense it's pretty similar to other wars that the us. Has gotten into.

Many of you probably are not all enough to remember when the U S. Got into iraq or afghanistan um and i'm not enough to remember the U S. Going to be at now.

But the thing understand of all those wars is that, that we're incredible popular at the time that we entered them. And by the time that they ended, they were not and not are not saying i'm not prety judging ukraine and saying it's one of those. I think there's important differences that we should get into, but I think we should at least have this debate and we need more discussion around this. And so for that, i'm grateful that in twenty years time to participate, let your.

Winter, man, give.

We open sources to the .

fans and .

just got.

So where going to do is kick up to each of them for kind of five minute opening statements and then we will just get into sort of more of a back and fourth and we will send to you called thanks.

thanks, thanks for doing the moderation from like literally the first comparing IT to a rocks because I come up to say it's not about a rock at all. Um but yeah so let's just start off with, I think probably most people who know that I actually spent some time in ukraine. I D like a lot of the independent voices who decided to apply from a far about ukraine ine.

I felt that the american media discourse SE about ukraine was completely secured and IT just more kind of bullshit to me. And so I thought I had to go and actually see IT. And so I spent some time on the polish border with ukraine.

This was kind of in the earliest part of the war, kind of early march, and the western part of ukraine, which, by the way, is not particular dangerous. Anything is probably no more dangerous. And walking across inference is go these days, to be honest.

But IT was interesting to actually go and see. And I took away two things. I wrote two subject post about IT that I want to share with you two parts of the ukraine story.

One, the refugee situation is incredible. IT is something that you have to see to believe, and even then you can't quite understand the scope of IT. Ten million ukrainians, fully a quarter of the country is currently displaced. Something like six million ukrainean have left in the span of two months.

When you stand up the border at um media, which just one of the border crossing with poland, what you see is you're added and you realized you're at the fringes of sort of Normal western european life and you've entered on the other side of that is hell that people are escaping. And what do you see? You see again, the men can't leave because they prohibited from leaving because because they have to fight.

And so you see is old people or women with children. Imagine a women in their thirties with two kids, a literaly bag and like a cat in a bag, like, that's the typical thing. And just a line of them going over the border again and again and again.

And the polls have been amazing. And how they received the ukraine ans, literally millions of ukraine. Ans, but all the same as an enormous strain everywhere you go in eastern pole, in western ukraine, at the big open area is basically refugee camp, whether be a train station, repurpose, warehouses, all of IT. The human situation is just kind of mine boggling. The other thing i'd like to share across the border IT was where acrosst the border.

There's this line of people looking to leave and there's like you with my little starling and my little bag and my little body armor, like walking across the other way because you can't take cars across, everyone walks across and everyone is looking me like i'm crazy, right? Because why are you walking in the other direction? grow.

And any I walked in the other direction had a driver pick me up, experience a little bit western ukraine for a few days. And I experience what I think probably nobody here has experienced directly, which is total law, right? A society that's completely and totally mobilized to repel a foreign invader, right?

I was in a city called levive, which is one of the western cities that sort of free ukraine. And everything there is either men and weapons and trucks going east, or women and children and refugees going west. That's all you would see. That's all that.

What happened there? And all of society from the interpreter I had, because unfortunately I speak no ukrainian, the driver who drives me around to the hacker interview who was like ddos, sing russian websites. All them would punctuate their statements with we will win, right? And that's when I realized that the big mistake that everyone had made, I think particularly in the U.

S. Discourse, is underrating ukrainian resolve. And there is zeal for their own nationalist project right after. After spending a data again, remember this is the reality of the early days of the war key is tilden circled IT wasn't clear if the if the below reasons to start a western in front IT was all still up in the air.

But i'll starting to think, you know, I don't see how the russians windless like this just seems impossible. Ukraine is the size of texas as the population of forty million people, roughly the size. Imagine the russian is showing up with two hundred thousand soldiers and trying to control california.

This can be very difficult to do, particularly when literally everybody is staring at in saying we will win, which is what what happened. And that's when I realized that this whole story was very different than it's being projected in the united states and that I felt I felt vindicated in going because I think there aren't that many american journalists there. And I think a lot of the discourse in the us tends discrete towards iraq or towards projection of american political domestic neo sis.

And not the facts on the ground in ukraine in which you have devastate ted cities. You have women and children, refugees. You have literally a total war situation that the western world hasn't seen since world war two. That's the reality of ukraine and what I hope to debate here.

Hi, thank you. Well, great.

So I shouldn't respect for anyone's decision to go actually see a place that you want to talk about. I think that there is very a question of how much you can actually learn about a country of forty four million people with an incredible complex history with extreme diversity of thought in terms of the population, by going for whatever IT is a week or ten days, to a kind of sliver of that country that has extremely different views than another region.

For example, of in two thousand and three, you want to go before the war, iraq, and figure out what iraq I thought. If you went to the kurdish regions of iraq, you would hear nothing but I want the united states to come and liberate us from salem. Who's saying if you went to the sunni triangle, you would here, if you come, if the united states comes here, we're going make this a graveyard of americans and and similarly, if you go to western new ukraine, of course you're going to hear we want american help.

We want to fight the russians to the end. If you go to the eastern up reasons of ukraine, which are russian speaking, to identify with scale, you're going to hear the exact opposite. So I think it's commendable to go to our country like ukraine. I think we have to be humble about our ability to understand that the thoughts of the population, the reality on the ground when you go to certain segments that you select um and that are almost likely to kind of feedback to you, what IT is that um you're already expecting to hear.

The other thing I think is very important to note is that you know first all i'm a little surprised by the idea that I guess IT was implicit, that antony have felt that the media narrative has been off or one sighted in the sense that IT hasn't unfavorable enough to the idea that ukraine is the victim that needs help and russia is the clear grass. I can't remember ever reading an article on the mainstream press since the invasion that said anything other than that, which is why no eighty percent of the amErica is the entire bipartisan class and washed of parties are essentially unified and support the narrative that antonia believes, in my opinion, with great, sincere. I think there's been, if anything, a kind of lack of decent available in the united states on the other side.

And this is one thing I want to emphasize, there has been this claim, this sort of implicit claim, sometimes explicit claim, that the entire wars united behind the united states, behind ukraine, against russia. The reality is, overwhelmingly, the most of the world is, in fact, not united behind the united states. And then in opposition on ukraine, most of the global cell, fifteen of the, most of the twenty most, unless countries on the planet, either abstained or voted no.

When I came time to decide whether to excell russia from the human rights council, and some of those countries are tyranny, many of them, such as india, the world's largest democracy. Brazil, the second largest democracy. After that, at states very much deviates from the rap consensus in the united states, and sometimes they think for americans and we're living in a country in which were bombarded with one message, it's in combed upon us to ask why IT is there.

So much of the rest of the world does not believe that the united states is participating in the war in ukraine with the navel and intentions or with the desire to protect democracy. You're protect against aggression, which, in fact, that the rest of the world books at the history of the united states, not just distant for very recent, and sees a country not devoted to protecting democracy, but you're propping up tyranny. To fighting war is not to protect edicts, but to sacrifice innocent es in its own interest.

And so I think that's one really important thing is to make sure that we're looking at this war, not as a country that's essentially a obligation in IT, but as a country that is just a small part of the rest of the world that has a lot of opinions. The other thing I point out is war in general is the worst that humanity can unleash APP on itself. There is no war that doesn't involve extreme amounts of atrocities, extreme amounts of war crimes, all kinds of hindi st things.

And if you look at anywhere, anywhere, not just the ones that united states, the united states adversaries have started, but once the united states started, ones of the united states allies have started that we support, you're going to find enormous amounts of atrocities in any decent person with any kind of a minimum moral compass, which looks at any war like that is onna, walk away, horrible, and discuss that wanting to do something about IT. The only difference between what's happening in the war in ukraine and so many other wars is that the U. S.

Media is constantly showing us images and stories about ukranian victims, as IT should. But think about the war that the united states has itself started or is propping up, like, for example, the war in yemen that has been going on for many years. That is still going on, because united states is supplying saudi arabia, not exactly a democracy, with enormous amounts of weapons and money and intelligence to fight that war.

And think about how much you've heard or seen about the victims of yemen. How many humans have you heard from talking about their relatives who have been lost in, in, in, in battle, or how many are people who we bombed in wedding parties in the leg have been lost? And well, and so I think what this can happen is you can create an imbaLance on our perception.

The imbaLance isn't that the war in ukraine really is a horrible IT is, but that there's really nothing traditionary about what's taking place in that war. All wars, including the ones we start, the ones that we're waging, the ones that were supporting, have the same kinds of atrocities. And the question ultimately becomes, does the united states really have benevolent motives in trying to defend ukrainy set of sacrifice IT? And secondly, does united states have the ability to Foster a positive outcome on the other side of the world, involving extremely complex cultures and histories? And two countries are very intertwined.

georgia. C interest, that even if we did have the right motives, would you really have the ability, by flooding this country with weapons and all the other things we typically do in wars, to Foster a positive outcome? And I think that's why the rest of the world has a lot doubts.

Okay, thank you. lend. So let one a little longer. So turning why I could be a couple of minutes to respond to that. Then I want to ask you both the question OK.

I think I walk to the wrong thing. I didn't really always ready to be in yemen instead of ukraine going or indian forest and policy instead of our own. One thing I say, one thing you said is just completely wrong.

It's not the case that yesterday ukraine is profession. If so, how do you explain murray apple, a city completely destroyed that fought to the last man with civilian's literally holding up in the steel plate? How do you explain all the successes in the eastern part of the war? You never actually mention the facts of the war.

You're all was. What about in other countries reaction to the war, the fact that the eastern front in russia, that the war is going very poorly for russia? How do you explain that fact that if if eastern ukraine is actually that the russians are doing so poorly there?

The other thing I would say, I don't think it's the fact if you look at most polls and it's unna, this poll came out in instantly your friend tech or carson as well as the events had to change the reline on ukraine because they realized that it's hard to be a populist of reviews aren't very popular ap dia pole. And not just democrats support bin being tougher on, russian republicans do as well, right? And why is that?

Because you have a small country that's getting crushed by a country that's been the historic or swann enemy of the united states. As long as anyone can remember, I live out the middle nowhere in a red state trump country in the desert outside the reno. And people are flying ukrainian flags along with the us. flags. I don't think that because they are read the new york times, right? The other.

So etna tally as president. So we recently had well previously buying.

I just just one thing there, several points there. Um you know the other thing I would say is that you know this in that country don't support IT. One thing I found one aspect of the story that I found was very interesting that all of europe has shown up on ukraine's door to help out the ukrainians, right?

Usually i'm both us. citizen. Usually I read both media. It's like the us.

That is like the hard line rail politique and then the eu. That's in like geopolitical Alland. I think in the case of this story, it's been reversed. And I think the us. Is taking ukraine, projecting IT in a zone domestic political narratives like when is.

And I think the eur ans actually see their own collective history in the ukrainian story, because whether to be the spanish civil war, whether be the germans, they all remember what total war actually means, what IT is to stumble through the stories streets and be a refugee and displaced person. Americans don't have an experience of that. They can't really resonate with that, fortunately for us, to be clear.

But I think you rope's do so. If you go to that border area, you will see all of europe as far away, spain, dead, mark, whatever, showing up that actually have the ukrainy. The last thing I would say is, I think one thing that unites, I think, the old left, that you would probably put yourself into in with gland, like a berny left this.

And the new right is that both consider two key things. One, the us. Can never act abroad in a legitimate good way.

Everything the us. Does abroad is always a fiasco. And then two, everything that happens abroad is our fault.

Like literally the entire world's events are downstream of the state department phone call. And I just don't I just don't think that's true. Being in ukraine, IT doesn't seem to me as if the us.

Is pulling all the strings on the country. IT seems like a very chaotic situation where the ukraine is try to improvise as much as they can. And so again, on the one hand, I reject the fact that the U.

S. Can act abroad. Well, I think I can, if you look at things e stage of japan, korea, western europe itself, the U. S.

Has created the conditions for democracy in the etern. Is there a limit to wise U. S.

Involvement in ukraine? So we have biden basically said that putin cannot remain in power. And then immediately his own pressure walked out back as a gaffe.

You then had security of defense. Austin say that our objective in ukraine is not just to spill the russians, but till weak in russia as a great powers. So I can never throw a name one again.

You then have seth multon that the democrat, the house armed services committee, saying that we were in a proxy war with russia and then sending haulier the houseman doral leer said, we are at war with russia. Do you think we are at war with russia? Is that wise?

No.

we're in a prox. We're a proxy worth russia. What is the vital national interest in states that compels us to be in a war and middle through a proxy with russia that has six thousand nuclear weapons, even if I were a grant that we should be trying to, out of humAnitary arian motives, spell the russians from ukraine, do you believe that we should be trying to disabilities and top putty?

Let me come out that with the questions for me. I feel like come to bating two people, but I joked in my tweet, the odds are even worse with the ukrainians so i'll take IT but i'm I asked you a question of my amy not too longer, David.

You're the one who said we're threatning world war three were engaging in nuclear brinkmanship, by the way, things that we did all throughout the cold war, right? I was raised in as an eighty kid to here in miami. We used to do this thing all the time.

What point would you stop? At what point you think it's actually worth rolling the dice? At what point between levive and warsaw and your front door would you stop and say, actually world worth three and nuclear wars worth risking because that's in the entry. I don't get out of the APP sas. At what point you actually put your foot down?

Well, I mean, look, what i've said is that I willing to ARM ukraine under cold war rules. So I eat the way that we armed the major idea in afghanistan. So we provide them with stingers.

But IT wasn't a us. Flag on the box. And we didn't truck, you know, wasn't U. S. Flags on the trucks.

We there were a certain set of rules by which we engaged in to avoid the risk of war or three with the russians. You now I think it's I know, because we have now defined our objectives in a much more expensive way. And i'll let one speak for himself because I think he would not go as far as me.

I'm sort of I wanted to do a little bit more. But but no, I mean, look, you have the president ze states saying that he wants to basically top putin. And you've got awesome saying that our objectors here go beyond ukraine is basically to kick russia out of the legal great powers.

And moreover, you've got the state department declaring that we're in a global struggle between autocracy and democracy. So we've defined the struggle in manica in terms. And if somehow ukraine were to lose, there's like there's a domino theory we're dictators are going to take over the whole globe. And so I think we were investing uka. I would give them some help, but I would not allow the we know american president has ever claimed that the united states has a vital national interest in ukraine, named if the .

president was done IT before. Maybe good about that. So first of, at the start of every word that we fought over the last sixty years, the same climate, if we were in the united, it's would prevail as the one that's in this room every time some comment was made that the united states on the right side were actually doing the right thing.

We're fighting on behalf everybody in the auditor, oran wa. Pod, it's really good. It's a good feeling to feel, eg. Your country, your government is doing something deeply more.

So again, I just want to show, and maybe, you know, this doesn't matter, because you think that most other countries are primitive or arrogant or immersion propaganda, and we were not. But here at the top twenty countries by population, in the ones in yellow, are the ones who refused to support the U. N.

Resolution expelling russia from the U. N. Human rights council. And you can see that is nine out of the ten most populous countries that are on the opposite side of all the cheering that's taking place in this auditorium. This is exactly what his repeated itself. Every time we've gone to war in vietnam, iraq, in afghanistan, in libya, in syria, all americans across the board, eighty percent, eighty five percent, are on board with the war in the beginning, because IT feels so good to believe your country is going toward to do something positive.

And then six months later, or a year later, or five years later, every single one of those words, overwhelming majority say IT was a huge mistake that, at least to me, would cause some humility to ask, why is that pattern keeper itself? Why am I as american and american, always so suspect table to cheering my government's involvement in a war when the rest of the world is telling you that actually you're being propaganda ves, that the motive the united states government is claiming to have is defending democracy is not actually their motive, as illustrated by, I don't know why the rule is we're not allowed to evaluate other things the united states is doing to determine whether those motives are real, like what we do and something A, B, O, or what we do in you. And that seems like if someone comes to you and claims that they're acting with a certain motive to determine whether that's really the motive, you'd want to look at the history of that person and whether their behaviors consistent with that motive.

That's what the rest of the world is doing in the reason why they find these propagandists claims that the united states so preposterous, because so many of them have been victimized by the united states overthrowing their democratic elected governments, not in the distant past, but in the recent ones. Here's the next ten most populous countries, six out of ten, also dv, h. From the U.

S. position. And then as far as what David was saying, this was baracouda a so it's not what antony was saying.

People on the far, my friend tech or carles and evil farri people. This is barac obama in twenty sixteen. On his way out the door he was confronted in a very lengthy interview by jeffrey gold.

Berg, the new conservative editor in chief of the atlantic, could probably did more than anybody else to convince americans to support the warn iraq in two thousand and two and three by claiming that alka was an an alliance with saw a whose saying, and he was demanding to know why obama spent his presidency refusing to ARM the ukrainian unions and refusing to confront moscow. L, and here's what jerey golden g in twenty sixteen quoted obama is saying. This is gold bergs.

A quote for obama, quote, obama's theory here is simple, ukraine is a core russian interest, but not an american one. So russia will always be able to maintain equators dominance there. Quote, the fact is that ukraine, which is a non eaton country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by russia.

No matter what we do. It's realistic. But this is example of where we have to be very clear about what our core interests and what we are willing to go to war for. And then here is the current CIA director, William burns, who is also not on the far left or part of the far right, who went two thousand and eight in a memo to contel SE, a race when the bush wanted to expand ato up to russian borders, warned, this is what he wrote.

Quote, ukrainian entry in tanai is the greatest of all red lines for the rationally, not just putin, and more than two and a half years of conversations with key russian players from nuckles dragons and the dark recesses the criminal in to put in sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who have used ukraine and nato anything other than a direct chAllenge to russian interest. This has been conventional wisdom in washington up until february twenty forth, when IT suddenly became taboo to talk about russia use ukraine as the most vital interest to IT, because I was twice used by germany to invade russia the twenty eth century and virtually destroy IT, and that ukraine never has been and never will be, a vital interest to the united states. I think .

that arguments are Better .

in the original russian, to be honest. I I don't know why you're sitting here citing six year old atlantic pieces about obama. Are you going to dress the reality where we're talking about in that list of nations?

By the way, you included is that human rights luminaries as iran in china, having voted against IT. Let me ask you a direct question. Should russia be sitting on the un. Human rights council, a country that routinely incarcerates journalists and has a honest human rights record?

I mean, the quite give you look at who else is on the human rights council like the united states like you're what about the Price is not what about of them to say you have look at what the rest of the world is doing in order to understand the world framework.

Why is that that the united states that still has people on guantanamo for twenty years with no trial, that destroyed the country of iraq, a country of twenty five million people, that is the created, the worst humAnitarian, an crisis in the yemen, that is imprisoning journalists like juan sons with no charges for over a decade now has any moral credibility to say we are more or less appear. I know what good to say that, but the reality gives the united seats, if you look at what it's actually doing, which is going around the world, and it's always done this, supporting tierney, not supporting democracy, propping up desperate, not fighting them. If you want to believe that there's a way to go into out ukraine and defend the ukrainians and all of that, I believe that that's what you want to do. But I would be incredibly nice to refuse to ask ourselves whether that's really the of the united states, given everything we know about the government, and if the goal of the united states is not the one that you hope they have and that you have, but instead is a different one neighing not to defend ukraine and ukrainian ans, but to sacrifice ukraine in pursuit of this broader geopolitical goal that David mentioned, that they're now admitting, which is to weaken russia and bring about regime change. Then you're cheering for a war that is completely different than the war that is actually being full.

No, I disagree. And I I think you too long and play those cave of twitter and you don't start reality.

And you to be quite what I shows twitter, I shows you came from twitter.

IT came from the six year. The landing piece is even less relevant. Just this week, the finish in swedish parliaments voted to join nato.

Why is that? Your argument is completely backwards. Russia is not aggression.

Sa, let me respond to the point that there for two minutes, seeing that russia is not surrounded by nature. Russia is an aggressive because it's rounded by nato. It's surround by nature because it's aggressive.

okay. And countries like fin land and sweden have been living under the russian booo and filled most knows IT from the winter war. And that threats has been there constantly. So again, what do you know that the finishing swedish parliaments who are trying to make a decision for .

the people don't know, right? If I were a country, and I and I have the option to have the richest, powerful country with the biggest military tell me that if anyone invade you, i'm gonna go to war and fight again to, I would say, yeah, I would love that also. That sounds like a really great thing. Of course, every country would love to have a pledge from the world's greatest military that if anyone.

you seriously saying .

the country to line up to the ukraine, do you know, what do you know about the the united states and tensions that all of the countries I just showed you, not including tyrAnnies, many of which are on the united side, but many democracies who have had their democracies severity by the united states, who are saying, we do not believe the united states as well, intention that every time the united states involves itself in the war, IT convinces its own citizens that is going to do the evolving things. But the reality is exactly the opposite. What do you know that the entry, the rest of the world doesn't?

It's not the into the rest of the world, the urology, the uroquest were are closer. The conflict completely disagree with you. The gains, the coldly little gains are sitting left.

Lethal eight to ukraine is h this topic? So um story to interview. What is the outcome that you would like to see here and right now, the way that Victory is being defined with by ukraine and by our state department is that, uh, we kick russia out of ukraine, maybe even crimea too, that's efficient policy, and maybe we destabilize and top putin. I mean, where's the like? What do you what's the outcome that you think our objective should be here?

My ideal outcome is whatever the ukraine is one for themselves, which seems to be, if you listen to them, seem as to be a liberal democratic ukraine that wants to join the greater eu western sphere. If you look at the the madam protest in two thousand and fifteen, this is everyone kind of revolve IT against the the professions leader at the time, and there were civilian shootings.

And if you talk to ukrainians, I mean, there's been two hundred years or longer of ukrainian sort of nationalism kind of growing. But the two thousand and fourteen, two thousand and fifteen protests, we're really a former to appear with. The ukrainean rely said this is that we've got our own country.

And if you talked to them there, like we've had seven years of democracy, we're not giving IT up now, right? And if you look at things like the mass graves discovered a bookoo when the russians pulled back to look at that, and they say, if we fail, that's the future that awaits us, right? So they want the opposite of that.

Apparently, eighty to ninety percent of the population in crimea is russia. And once be part of russia, does that go back to ukraine or that go to russia?

A good question.

But the ukrainians under zinsky believe that crimea belongs to them. So is he wrong about that? Doesn't the principal self determination mean that those peoples should get to decide which country they go with?

I mean, that is as much a question for crime as that is. Got alonga in spain, I mean, you like, but the russians .

have a val based at seven stoppa that gives them control over the black sea. And if you tell them that that what ukrainian Victory means here is they get kicked out of that naval base and lose control the black sea, you have threatened them existentially. And you know they are policy with regard to nuclear weapons is it's a loud if their nation is essentially threatened. So we are playing with fire here. Is that an objective that we are willing to risk of nuclear war .

as we didn't cuba with nuclear weapons there.

I don't think we should be. So we need to define our objectives in here in a more limited way than just whatever the ukraine um say.

But but here's the reality right again, this is one of the things you get into american political discourse. Everything is in downstream of the american decision. This will come down to the fortunes of war on the ground and ukrainy, which is partially a functions of how much had to give them.

Obviously, yes, we can put springs on those weapons, right, to forty billion of weapons are going there, and this just this months delivery.

So I mean, and it's a good question to ask what happens to those weapons.

after which I believe our state department is working for negotiated peace.

I don't know the inner workings .

in the state park.

but should they be? No, I think the worst stop in the ukrainians, one of the stop .

there are so many .

countries all over the world who want the united states to do things that we don't, that we don't do for them. The humans have been begging the united states for six years to stop sending huge amounts of weaponry and intelligence to the the socialities. And you can say, oh yeah, yemen's, a totally different country.

Yemen's, a different country, still, the united states government and IT is extremely disturbing to me. I have to say that we suddenly seem to care so much about the lives of ukrainians and seem to care very little about the lives of all the countries in which we ourselves are the aggressors. And you can say, well, there's a completely different issue, but it's not a completely different issue because what the united, the outcome is of the united state's role in ukraine is determined by the U.

S. motive. And what you have to do to look at what the U.

S. Motive is is not picked. The rhetoric that makes you feel good. We're on the side of liberation. That's what George bush said in his two thousand and three state of union speech.

We're going to iraq because we love democracy, and we're going to liberate the iraqi people from saw and who saying that's what lindon Johnson said about why we're getting involved in the war, vietnam. We love the self enemies democrats, and we're going there to protect them from the self vietnam communist. Maybe if that had been true, those words would have had much different outcomes.

But that wasn't the reason that was the propagandists pretends. And so to refuse to say i'm going to interrogate the authenticity of what us. Motives are, is that just wash your hands of the reality of the war instead of what you hope the war is and and.

work. yeah. okay. i'm.

Going to twenty last words since he was a little bit of gone here not i've gone because you did more than find on your own but there was a little bof two on .

one so going to give into David what you just talking about the apparently even apparently, I know. So when I was going back from ukraine and I was crossing back and suddenly I was obviously wasn't really a refugee, but I was in the refugee line along with all of the ukrainians living. And you're at the border middle nowhere, by the way, it's not like a big city anything.

And you saw sign in polish and said you're entering poland in the eu flag, right? As a new citizen. That flag never really met much to me.

But and I could not that my time in ukon was that bad, but I did feel precarious. And IT was a war zone and sims going off. And now let's have to go back to what seemed like an ordered liberal world. Seem magical to me. I had the same feeling.

I went to report cuba on the internet years ago for a wide magazine, and when I landed at my my airport here was like, man, god, less amErica on that way back here there's a certain order and and rules for life. I think the global liberal order is real. And I think those who tend to shit on IT or at this question, its value are those that typically tend not to the outside of IT for one.

And under value is important in the world. Ladies and gentlemen, a debate for the age. Well done.

What your winners, right?

Right, man?

We open sources to the fans. And i've .

just got crazy with.

We should all just get a room, just have one big, huge orgy, because I like, like sexual attention. But they just need to release some what your B.

B, your here, B.

B, we need get marking.