Three Browsers Are Better Than One with Matt Birchler
35:22 Share

Hello and welcome to App Stories. Today's episode is brought to you by Things by Cultured Code and Memberful. I'm John Voorhees and with me is Federico Vittici who is going to introduce our very special guest today. Hello, John. I hope you're doing well. It's been a busy week. I'm doing very well. It's been an eventful week. You survived an explosion. That's what I like to say now.

I did survive, even though Apple made you think that maybe I had perished. Yeah, so there's more details about that on Blue Sky if you're interested, but Johnny's alive and kicking. That's what you're doing. We're joined today by a, I described in the pre-show, friend of the show, comfort zone co-host...

web and app developer, and also writer, blogger, Matt Birchler. Welcome to the show, Matt. And YouTuber. And YouTuber. I forgot something. I knew it. Welcome to the show, Matt. Thank you for having me. And thank you for the extended intro. I appreciate it. For those who are not aware, you're obviously doing a lot of things. Can you have a more serious introduction of yourself and all the things you do than what I just did?

Yeah, I've been doing Apple...

coverage for many years. I've had a blog since 2010. I've been doing that and started YouTube during the pandemic and more recently started doing app development. So yeah, I have an app that lets you review things and make posters that you can share on social media. And it's pretty cool. And yeah, I should probably name these things. The blog is birchtree.me. The YouTube channel is called A Better Computer. And the app is called Quick Reviews.

I was going to say, I didn't realize you started your YouTube channel during the pandemic. That time period, I can't remember anything that happened then, whether it happened before or after. I thought it had been around longer than that.

Absolutely not. I'm a huge fan of the YouTube channel. Obviously, like a big fan of your work. The YouTube channel, I think, is the sort of thing that is so hard to find on YouTube. Like just someone who cares about software doing what I like to think it's almost like the video equivalent of Mac stories, but on YouTube. And I think it's done so well. Like just...

just long form videos about software tips and tricks. Like I think it's really well done. - Well, thank you. - I'm a big fan. And he obviously started doing comfort zone with Neil and that other guy, Chris. I love, what is his name again?

Love you, Chris. Shout out to Chris. You guys started doing Comfort Zone, which is also one of my favorite shows. I never skip an episode. And I don't say this because it's on Mac Stories. I actually never skip an episode, even when you're talking about Star Wars. So that's a lot. That's more the two of them. I just try to keep up. Please, please, please don't do them again. No, I'm kidding. So we wanted to talk about a couple of topics here today. And...

I kind of wanted to start by talking about everybody's favorite topic, which is email. And I know that it maybe doesn't sound exciting, but I think it actually is, especially in combination of... Like when you consider email through the lens of these new tools and these new features that are sort of finding their way into email clients. Right. Just a couple of weeks ago on Connected, I talked about my experience with using Superhuman, which is this...

very Silicon Valley, unfortunately, like tech bro kind of vibe email service. And what's unfortunate about it, I think, is that I think it's a pretty good product if you can set aside the whole vibe thing and the whole sort of like, I don't know, not even an aesthetic they're going for, more like a vibe, really. I think it's actually a pretty interesting product. And I decided to take it for a spin

Because I remember you putting together on YouTube sort of like a video walkthrough of like, what does it feel like to use Superhuman as your email client? And so I kind of wanted to know from you, what's your perspective lately on these new email clients that are very different from Apple Mail, for example, even though Apple is trying to modernize the mail experience? Like, how...

What are you playing around with? What's your take on these tools? What's your take on like these AI features in email? That's what I wanted to talk about. Yeah. First off, I did want to say on the vibe thing with Superhuman, one of the reasons I made a video about it that just showed the app is that I kept watching like these videos of people just like talking about the theory of Superhuman. And I'm like, but what does it do? What is it?

Like, what does the interface look like? It's a very cult-like vibe, I think, is the problem with a lot of productivity apps. They get more into the theory than the actual nitty-gritty, which I did appreciate about your video. Yeah. So, yes. I was just like, let's just show the app. And I think I kind of agree with you is that there is this weird vibe around it. There's a cost around it that's relatively insane. But I keep using that app because it is...

just a good app, which is really, really good. I find it to be very fast, very reliable, really just really easy to use. But in terms of like this new wave of email apps, I think these like AI tools are really, really well suited for them. I linked to a wallpaper pack that I bought a year or two ago. I could not remember who made it.

what it was called i had no idea and i was able to use um i used shortwave for this but i was able to search for like what wallpaper packs did i buy about a year ago just show me them and it was able to find those and like i wouldn't know how to do that with a normal search yeah um and so i really like that kind of like ability to like go through my email and find things in different ways um i feel like there's a lot of these like additional features like help me write the email um

like let me source your email for you i find those not to be as useful personally um but like with shortwave especially there's like ai everywhere like every part of the interface is like we're gonna help you over here we're gonna help you over here we're gonna be a box here um so i think it can be too much at times but i feel like there's a lot of like spaghetti being thrown at the wall as people try to figure out what clicks right but email seems like a space that can be changed quite a bit by these

Yeah, I think that that's right. I mean, one of the things, first of all, Matt, you are responsible for two of my big app usages right now, which were Godspeed, which then led me into Superhuman. And I kind of realized using Godspeed after watching your video about that task manager is that it has a very Superhuman-like aesthetic to it in the sense that it's very keyboard driven. It doesn't have all the AI stuff layered in.

but it kind of operates the same way with a command bar and a lot of keyboard shortcuts, which I find really, really useful to get through tasks and move them around and reschedule them or put them in different lists very quickly. And that's kind of what clicked with me when I tried Superhuman.

And I will say, for the record, because Mike Hurley said he felt sorry for me because Federico was going to force me to use Superhuman. Okay, so we're putting Mike on blast here now. We're going to put Mike on blast. I tried it of my own volition.

Before I tried it, after hearing that Federico was trying it, I watched Matt's video and it was Matt's video that convinced me to give it a try because it looked like, as I said, very similar to the way Godspeed worked with the keyboard. And I was able over a weekend of just playing around, just blast through hundreds of emails and get everything kind of organized in a way that I had not done in many, many, many, many months. And that alone,

Even putting the search and the AI to the side was super valuable to me. But we've actually already since moved on after a week of super human. But what I'm really hearing, John, is that you're saying that I'm a good business partner. I didn't force you to do anything. And you try apps based on your own taste. Okay, okay.

Yes, Mike should not feel bad for me. But the thing too about the vibe, Federico, is that Matt and I were talking a little bit before we got started today. I remember looking at Superhuman like it was probably at least three years ago. It was back when it was a beta. And to get on the beta, as Matt reminded me, you had to go through a one-on-one session with a person. I did one of those.

Oh, I refused. I did one of those. It was kind of awkward. Yeah, I bet it was. I don't think I'm breaking any embargo here or any NDA. Like you're jumping on a Zoom call and there's like two people asking, so how do you use email? And I'm like, I don't know. People send me emails.

They didn't let anybody join as long as they did the one-on-one and they had the money and they didn't have any kind of free trial. And I found all of that plus the vibe very off-putting at the time. But things have changed. Yeah, they don't do that anymore.

They don't do that anymore. The one-on-one thing is optional and you can get a free trial, which is what I did because I wasn't sure whether it would be worth that money because it is expensive. It's very, very expensive. But if you get a lot of email, it's maybe worth it to you. Yeah, I mentioned this on Connected also. After Superhuman, it kind of led me down this path of trying shortwave.

which is this other email service that, as Matt mentioned, they're doing AI everywhere. Shortwave is a product that's been around for a while. Like many other of these products, it seems like in the past year, they completely pivoted to AI and they're now saying, well, let's do AI assistance, AI search, AI writing tools, like AI everywhere. AI filtering. And something actually, like of all these things, it's like they're trying everything

Something is actually good, and other features are more like distractions to me. But the AI filters, for example, so the ability to

write down a prompt and say, if you see an email that matches such and such conditions, apply this label, for example. And I didn't have to learn a syntax to do it. I could just write down in plain English what I wanted. I think that's an incredible feature. And like it builds on top of the existing foundation of like, yes, you can organize your emails with labels, but now you don't need to learn a syntax anymore. And I think that's very empowering for a lot of people.

It fits in well, I think, with the command bar because the command bar is designed for you not to have to remember the keyboard shortcuts. If you don't remember the shortcut for something, you can just start typing what you want to do and it'll pop up and you can do it. Where in the natural language of the AI is very similar to that. I'm curious to know, Matt, what kind of feedback did you get from people about the superhuman video? I got, I feel like mostly okay feedback, but there's definitely a...

a notable contingent that was like, I just, I just couldn't do it. Cause you're not, it's like 30 bucks a month. I think it's up to 40 bucks for like the full subscription. Yeah. Yeah. Which is more than I pay for cell phone service. Like it's more than it is the most expensive thing I pay for. Um, it's more expensive than Apple one. Um,

which is crazy. But I think that's the thing that's a really, really big sticking point for people is like, and that's not even like for the domain. I'm not getting like an email account with that. I'm also paying for Google for a Gmail account. But I think, yeah, I think the feedback was largely okay, but a lot of people not understanding like why the Apple Mail app isn't enough or why other options aren't sufficient. Sure.

This week's episode of App Stories is brought to you by the award-winning to-do app, Things. As your year gets into full swing, Things can help you prioritize your most impactful work. Just create a project for each of your big goals and then add to-dos to reach those goals. It's really just that simple. Things cuts out the distractions so you can focus on getting things done, and there are powerful features under the hood.

Most recently, Things has added a bunch of new features for iOS 18, macOS Sequoia, watchOS 11, and visionOS 2. On iOS, the app provides two controls in Control Center. One of them lets you quickly create a new to-do, and the other lets you quickly jump into one of your lists.

To choose a list, you simply flip the control over and pick the list that you want, just like configuring a widget. These controls can also be added directly to the bottom of your lock screen for quick access. Things has also added support for the new home screen appearance modes. A beautiful new dark mode icon appears when you switch to dark mode, and the icon and widgets can adapt to the color of your choice. In the new tinted mode,

Of course, these features are available on your iPad as well. When it comes to things, what you'll really love most about the app is its design. It doesn't just look good, it feels good to use. This is a native app made to very high standards of quality, and it's a two-time winner of the Apple Design Award. So if you haven't tried things yet, you should check out the latest versions.

Head on over to their website, things.app. That's things, T-H-I-N-G-S, dot app, to learn about all the great features. And you can download a free trial for your Mac there, too. You can also find it on the App Store by searching for Things. Whatever you want to accomplish this year, Things can help you get there. Try Things today at things.app. You won't regret it. Our thanks to Things for their support of the show. ♪

I kind of wanted to, you know, because you mentioned like, why not use the Apple Mail app? Obviously, like there's this big topic of AI sort of looming over everything with software these days. And I know that you're the type of person who likes to play around with things, even though you mostly write about Apple. I think you're one of the few who

Keeps very much an open mind, you know, regarding like alternatives, like web browsers, for example, web apps. Just today or yesterday, you had a post on your blog about like the web is awesome, like web technology is awesome. Yeah, web apps are great. Yeah, web apps are great. I love them. Me too, actually. I'm working on a story about like actually using web apps on an iPad is pretty good now.

We're seeing this progress on a weekly basis now in terms of new AI models, reasoning models, regular models, models for text, for images, for video now. Agents obviously being very much the hot topic at the moment. And all of this to me, and we've talked about this with John, it seems like it's very much founded on the principle that everything is on the web. These are all web services.

Most of these models, they come with web APIs that everybody can use, that you can put on any machine, on any web server, and you can use it. And Apple is taking a very different approach. They're obviously a couple of years behind. They don't have a model, so to speak, that they can offer to not even to developers, let alone people. But do you think that the world is going to

the technology industry is going in this direction of AI means web-based means API and Apple is saying, well, no, for us, it means it's local, it's proprietary, it's on device, some of it. Uh, do you think this will turn out to be a problem longterm? Um,

That's like the hardest question. I do think it's interesting. I would agree that like a lot of the innovation and experimentation is happening on the web and on web apps specifically with these kind of, like you said, APIs for asking questions and getting answers and doing all the LLM stuff.

I don't know, because there is some local stuff going on. Like there is a big community around people using open source models and tweaking those. I forget what it's called. Like there's Ulama or something on the Mac that lets you run local LLMs like on your device. And those have a pretty thriving community as well. So I think there's going to be a mix. And like, just like personally from...

concerns around like how much energy these things use and everything i like the idea of being able to do a lot of this on device if possible and then like the frontier models as i think people refer to them for like chat gpt 401 or 403 or whatever all the big ones um those maybe you still need to reach out but like i do like the idea that for simple stuff um and maybe less simple stuff in the future you'll be able to do it on device but yeah it seems like

a lot of this is happening on the web and not necessarily in app stores and stuff um and i would posit potentially reason for that is that it's a it there aren't rules around what you can publish on the web there aren't app store regulations and you can not that this stuff would necessarily be blocked but like they don't have to worry about that they can iterate quickly they don't have to worry about app review or anything and yeah there's just less friction there to experiment yeah

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I mean, one of the things about local LLMs is I just saw that there is a Chinese company that just came up, right? That's funny you mentioned that because I was going to mention the same thing. So I think you're referring to DeepSeek. DeepSeek, yes. What's funny about DeepSeek is that it's this new open source model. It's like a 1.5 billion parameter model.

That's totally free and open source. But what's funny about it is that I saw some posts that if you're chatting with the model and you try to criticize the Chinese government, the model is going to go insane. Really? Yeah. It has certain parts of Chinese history that have been not included in the model, apparently. But the thing that's, I think...

Interesting about it, that stuff aside, is that it was developed at a very small fraction of the cost of the big LLMs from companies like OpenAI, and it can run locally, just like some of the Lama models can too. And I do think that we are going to see a mix at some point. We're probably...

I feel like the things that people are running locally are not quite, you know, they're just not as capable. So we're probably a little ways off from people doing that in a widespread way, but it is doable. I mean, if you use, for instance, like Mac Whisper or an app like that to do audio to text, you can download those models, which are open source directly into the app, and they can be pretty big.

But that stuff is all happening locally. It doesn't have to go to the cloud. Yeah, but there's something to be said about what Matt said. It's funny to imagine an alternate timeline where...

10 years ago, instead of doubling down on apps or regulation, maybe Apple went the opposite direction and were like, all right, fine. You can do side loading. You can do JIT. You can do all the things you can do with web apps. We just want to give you the freedom to build on our platforms with native apps. And they didn't do that. But there's maybe an alternative history here where all of this innovation maybe

instead of starting on the web, could have started on the App Store. Maybe, maybe. Although with the Mac, Federico, I mean, that's pretty open. And the Mac's seen an awful lot of shift to web apps too, despite the fact that you don't have to be on an App Store there. Maybe it was inevitable. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. This episode of App Stories is brought to you by Memberful. Memberful is the best-in-class membership software that's used by the web's biggest creators, publishers, and media companies.

We've been using Memberful at Mac Stories for years. It runs the entire club Mac Stories, and it has since 2015. It's a fantastic tool that adapts to your needs. It's got powerful capabilities like plugins that integrate effortlessly with WordPress, allowing you to create a fully functional membership website for your client's business. Plus, Memberful's robust API and webhook

make extending its functionality a breeze without needing complex custom code. Content protection is available too. You can put content behind a paywall, enabling your clients to monetize exclusive blog posts, videos, and downloadable resources.

Plus, Memberful allows your client to keep full control over their brand, audience, and business, allowing them to offer flexible membership levels, including recurring subscriptions, one-time payments, and a whole lot more. That's the kind of flexibility that we use in Backstories for our different tiers of the club.

Plus, it has built-in payment processing. They're handled by Stripe, and it makes checking out a breeze for customers and ensures your clients get paid on time every time. But one of the things that really makes Memberful special and sets it apart is the fact that it integrates so tightly with so many different services.

There are those WordPress plugins that I mentioned. Plus, it integrates with other popular platforms like MailChimp for email newsletters or Discord for community building, giving your clients more ways to engage with their audience.

Memberful is humans first, not software first. That means it allows creators to monetize with a partner, not a platform. Whether your clients are launching, growing, or switching platforms, Memberful is committed to providing exceptional support at every stage of the journey, from advice on growth strategies to troubleshooting setups. With Memberful, you're not just getting a tech solution, you're gaining a trusted partner that's ready to offer personalized guidance,

from setup to strategy. Visit memberful.com slash appstories today to learn more and sign up. That's memberful.com slash appstories. Our thanks to Memberful for their support of the show. Matt, we have some questions for you. You know, we've been asking these questions to all the guests that we've been having on appstories over the past few months. And I have one.

Specifically, I was catching up on comfort zone a few days ago. I was listening to one of your the episode before the holidays. And you mentioned, I believe, that you were using something like three different browsers on separate devices. And I wanted to to ask if that's still the case. And and I'm not judging here because I'm fascinated by it. But I want to understand why.

That's fair. I am using three different browsers on three different devices. Okay. All right.

Yeah, I use Safari on my iPhone and iPad. I use Zen browser on my personal Mac and I use Arc on my work Mac. Interesting. So let's talk about the Mac. Why the difference between the work Mac and the personal Mac? What is it? Do you just like a clean separation between the two? So, hmm.

So I started using Arc on the work Mac like a year or two ago. And so it's just momentum. I'm still using it there. But what I really like about Arc is the whole idea of Arc, like before they went on the AI pivot or whatever, the whole like point of that browser was that

You're working all day in these web apps, ironically, we're back on web apps and they, your browser should treat them more like apps rather than just like websites and tabs and stuff that you have open. And so I have a really nice setup where like I have, we're deeply in the, uh, Google suite and the con or, uh, Atlassian Jira and confluence and all that stuff. And so I just have like all of the things that I use constantly just saved as little like app icons basically in my sidebar.

They stay open. They're easily accessible with keyboard shortcuts. And yeah, I just kind of have muscle memory to work really, really fast in there. And it works very, very nicely with all the stuff I do day to day. So I'm going to keep using that until Arc inevitably stops working great. And what is it instead about Zen that you like in your personal Mac? Yeah, so I'm really falling for Zen recently. Zen is basically advanced.

at a very like surface level, it's arc, but built on Firefox instead of on chromium. Oh, so it is. Yeah. So it's, it's a, it's a fork of the Firefox rendering engine gecko or whatever they have. And yeah. Um,

I just really, really like it. Like I can't put my finger on exactly what it is, but it's just, it feels really good to use. And I feel like for a web browser, I don't need super advanced features. I just need something that like feels very good. So when I'm doing things, cause I'm on the browser basically 90% of my time when I'm working on the Mac and it just wants, it just needs to feel good and feel just nice and easy to use. So Zen's really clicked with me. It's still like in pretty early beta. So there's some rough edges, um,

There's no DRM media support. So like Netflix won't play if that's an issue for people. But I don't do that. So it's fine. But yeah, I really I'm definitely falling in love with this with this browser and it's actively developed. So it's got like a thriving community of people who are building extensions and themes and stuff.

And if you use Firefox, like on your phone, it will actually sync using Firefox sync. So you can sync if you want. Yeah. Does it, uh, does it work with regular Firefox extensions too, or do they have to be specifically built? Okay. No, that's good. Yep. Nice. It has a very arc look to it in terms of its design. Yeah. Are there any other, uh, recent favorites in terms of apps that you want to mention? Yes, there's a couple. Um, okay.

Two of them are web apps. Big episode for web apps. I've been using a new code IDE recently called Cursor. Oh, yeah. Okay. This is an AI-powered...

text editor, basically. It's a fork of Visual Studio Code. And it just has basically an AI assistant built in that is front and center and really has helped me learn how to do iOS development very quickly. And it's helped me with some of the things I struggled with on the web. But yeah, it's really fantastic. I could go on for like an hour about it, but basically at a very core level, like I've

I have like a button on the screen and I want it to do something. I can just select the button like code, hit command K and say, I need this to create an image and save it to the file system. And it will show me how to do that. And it just works 90% of the time, 95% of the time. And how much pre-existing knowledge?

So you're building an iOS version of Quick Reviews, which we're going to talk about in a minute. But how much pre-existing knowledge in terms of iOS development was required for you to get going with Cursor? A little bit, I would say. So I have done iOS development many years ago, but long enough ago it wasn't really relevant anymore. But...

I'd say having knowledge of what's possible and how code in general works is very helpful to it. If you just type in, I want to make an app that does this, you're not going to get a good result. You kind of have to understand how to build software and how functions work and how your logic works. There's quite a bit still there to do and you have to kind of understand and figure out. Yeah.

It's allowed me to build an app that I literally would not have been able to do in remotely the amount of time that I've done it. So it's been really impactful for me. Maybe, John, maybe this is a way for you to bring back Blink. Yes, it could be. I can get back into iOS development. I don't know, Federico. I think I've got my plate full for now. I think so. I think so. Is there anything else you want to mention before we talk about quick reviews, Matt?

Yeah, another two just quick little ones. There's an app called Lottie Lab, which is an animation app. So if you want to like animate an icon or animate a little stick figure guy or even more like elaborate stuff, I've been using that for a couple like months.

slide show presentations that I've been making at work where I've made like just animated little icons that dance while a slide is on screen. So that's really, really cool. And then there's Spline, which is a 3D modeling app that is totally online and really intuitive. I've tried to learn Blender and Blender just breaks my brain. I got a donut and

I got to the donut portion, which everybody seems to do with these 3d apps. And then after that, I'm like, I don't understand anything else, but spline has, uh, as has been, uh, pretty cool. Um, and again, just runs in the browser and runs incredibly well. Um, like it's amazing what you can do in a browser these days. Like,

Five years ago, 10 years ago, we would have said, well, sure, you can do some things in a web app. You can do email in a web app. But a 3D modeling app, there's no way you'd be able to do that. But you can today. So it's pretty cool. That's wild. So you're building an iOS version of Quick Reviews. I believe there's a test flight beta right now. There is, yes. And I wanted to know from you, what was the approach? Quick Reviews has been available as a web app for...

for a few years now. So what were some of the considerations in terms of building a native iOS version? Also, why build a native iOS version? Yeah, I put it off as long as I could. Like I really was like, a website's fine. I think on like a Mac or an iPad, it still is. But I got a lot of people who were like, oh, this is cool. I would like to do this. But

I want to do it for my phone. And it's just, it was just a lot of UI to fit on like a website in the web interface. And iOS is custom tailored to this and has a lot of tools to make a lot of that easy. And so I just decided, hey, I should do this. I felt the pain as well. Like I would walk out of a movie theater and be like, oh, I want to leave my review on social media. And I would just suffer through the website. And I didn't like that. So it's also just made for me. But

Yeah, I wanted to just give people a good experience on iOS. And then also, I'm curious, as we talked about at the start, I have lots of little side projects. So what's one more? What's one more skill that I can pick up? So I wanted to do iOS development. And yeah, but yeah, I think in terms of what I wanted to do with it, I wanted to do all the things the web app did and then all the things I couldn't figure out how to do on the web. So yeah.

It, I think, will eventually turn into kind of like a mini letterboxd or sofa, I think is the app. It lets you kind of track all the things you're watching and reading and all that stuff. And yeah, much to do there, but just right now focused on getting it out the door and making sure it doesn't have crazy bugs or anything like that. But it's been really exciting to make and

you know, it's, it's really fun to do something for the first time. Um, I see a lot of developers who are like, uh, Swift UI is really annoying. I have all these like things I run into, but as someone new, oh, it's been liberating just like, right. Like three lines of code and have like a, an interface display. It's great. So yeah. Yeah. What's the hardest thing been like kind of transitioning from, you know, doing this as a web app to doing it as something native. The hardest thing is understanding how, uh,

Literally everything's different. I'm very comfortable with like HTML and styling it with CSS and like almost none of that knowledge is useful in Swift UI. Like it's totally different syntax. It's not even like the structure is different. There's a very weird thing where like, this is just a very minor thing, but like when I create a little section in like the settings screen, I want to put a label for the top of that section for like, these are your...

appearance settings or whatever. I write all the code for the section and at the bottom you put header. I don't know why the header lives at the bottom of the like little code block for that, not the top, but like there's just a bunch of little things that I've had to retrain myself. So yeah, there's, there's quite a bit of, of difference there.

Back when I was doing iOS development, it was Objective-C. So I am very curious about SwiftUI and the kinds of things that that does for simplifying a lot of what was done more manually in those days. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, again, I'm a very amateur developer, so I'm not the best to speak super intelligently on this. But the impression I get is that SwiftUI is, the SwiftUI elements of the code are just like the layout and the UI. And then all the logic is written in Swift. So you are still using like normal Swift in that way. Right. That's great. Well, I'm looking forward to trying quick reviews on iOS. Yes.

And I think it's fascinating to see the web app, which is a quickreviews.app, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. Evolve over time. I didn't notice that there's now a command bar. It's a real pro app. You got to have a command bar. You got to command K and give you a bunch of commands. Really well done. So, yeah, we're looking forward to the iOS version. Yeah.

And I believe that's about it for this episode. I think we did it. I think it is. I think we did it again. Boy, we've done like 420 of these now, Federico. I think we've got the hang of it finally. It's taken a little while, but here we are. All right. I want to thank our sponsors, both Things by Cultured Code and Memberful. Matt, where can people find you online?

The best place to find me is on my website, birchtree.me. All right. You'll find all the links to finding Matt and other places right there. And of course, you can find me and Federico over at MacStories.net and Club Mac Stories. And if you want to find us on social media, just search for our names. Federico is Vitici pretty much everywhere. And I'm John Voorhees everywhere. Talk to you later, guys. Ciao, John. Thank you, Matt.