Shan Boodram (intimacy expert)
01:49:13 Share

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Shan Boudram. I'm not. You wish. I'm Dax Shepard, but I love the name Shan Boudram, who is the name of our guest. That's right.

Guys, I don't know if this episode is safe to listen to at work. Or maybe in the car with your children. Unless you have a very open. Progressive. Dialogue with them about sex. Yeah, this is a sexy episode. This might be Armchair's sexiest episode. Yeah, we get into some nitty gritty sex stuff. Not overarching, but like positions. Parts.

Parts of the vagina. Like how to, yeah, how to activate some of those parts specifically. Parts of the prostate. Yeah, correct.

Wow, wow, wow. What a titillating episode. Shan Boodram is a certified sex educator and sexologist. She has a podcast called Lovers by Shan, and she has a masterclass out now called The Art of Sex Appeal. It's dynamite. I watched it. I recommend it to everybody. Please enjoy Shan Boodram. Get into your body's vitals with the Vitals app on Apple Watch. ♪ When my skin's all the talking, I wanna feel like I'm ♪

The Vitals app tracks key overnight metrics so you can spot changes in your health before you feel them. The Vitals app on Apple Watch. iPhone XS or later required. The Vitals app is for wellness purposes only and not for medical use. I want to get in the fight, fight, fight.

We are supported by BetterHelp. You know, there's still a bit of surrounding stigma for men's health. I think it can still be challenging for men to admit they're struggling and seek help. I have a friend who just started therapy, a male friend, and he loves it so much. But yes, I think it's taken a little...

extra long because you're right, there is a stigma, but there really shouldn't be. Yeah, men today face immense pressure to perform, to provide, and keep it all together. So it's no wonder that six million men in the U.S. suffer from depression every year, and it's often undiagnosed. If you're a man and you're feeling the weight of the world, talk to someone, a friend, a

a loved one, a therapist. I'm a man. I've benefited greatly from therapy. And BetterHelp is a great option if you're looking to start therapy. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Armchairs get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash dax. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash dax.

He's an object expert. He's an object expert. He's an object expert. Do you live in L.A.? I do, yeah. Oh, you do? I do, yes. And you got a flat tire on the way here. I did get a flat tire on the way here. Congratulations. I'd say 12% of Monica and I's text exchanges are me helping her deal with a flat tire. Really? That she's obtained. Yeah, and it's mainly...

Help! And then really I just have to call AAA. Well, I have plugged some of the tires in the driveway. I've salvaged some tires. And you've reached out to the places to help me get in there. Well, this should be a part of the notes. Hey, people get flat tires on the way here. And the thing about it is because I saw the pothole and I can't remember if I swerved or just accepted my fate. It sounds like maybe given the proof that you accepted your fate. But maybe I swerved into it more.

Maybe I swerved and if I would have just kept going because it wasn't a large one. Like when you swerved to Mrs. Squirrel, but you swerve into where they ran situation. Yes. Yes. Which you always just keep it pinned. And I swerved to the edge of the pothole so I got more of the sharpness. Also like when you fall down and you put your hands behind you to brace yourself, you think that's going to help or really you break your arms. And you're what better to just fly back on your cranium? No. No.

No, on your butt. Okay, on your coccyx. Now, listen, a service I provide, I went and picked up. Oh, you did? Tiffany Haddish. Tiffany Haddish. She got in a huge collision on the way here. And then I drove to Mid-City and picked her up. Yeah. And I had never met her. And so that is a service I am willing to provide. I know this is the statistics of having 600, 500 episodes. So naturally, some people are going to have accidents, but it is seeming like you guys.

It does? Yeah. Okay, but I'm going to push back because we're at- 800. At least. 850. So we're talking one in 850 people get a flat tire. Okay. One in 850 people get a fender bender. It is pretty good odds. Yes. Someone will murder someone en route to the podcast. I think we'll hit that population threshold. Oh, I hope. Yeah. And I'll come to get them out of there or I'll provide legal- You'll bury the body.

I'll bury the body. We'll bring Carly and we'll cut it up. My little sister, she's a gangster. If you need. You need to have one. I'm not that one. I know who is that one, though. Yeah. It's just not going to be me. My friend Bart. Oh, your friend. Shut up, Bart. Yeah, Bart. Getaway driver for you in an emergency. I think he just got lots of weapons. He just watches lots of dark YouTube videos. Yeah, he's training. He's expressed before. I think he wants to be this person. Yeah, you have to want to in order to be able to do it. Yeah, some people want that.

I'll just offer another perspective, which is like, you could not want to, but part of your identity is I will rise up when the shit hits the fan.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not trying to cut anyone up. It's way above the fan. You murdered somebody and you want me to clean up the crime scene? It was an accident. Well, then tell that to the police. But the circumstances are such that there's no deniability. It looks so incriminating. What about for your kids? Oh, my gosh. This is a year-on-or-moment. You have two children? I do have two children.

I like the police. Yeah. Okay. I have good experiences with the police. Okay. I trust them. You'd call the police on your children? I don't know if I believe you. If it was an accident, for sure. If they murdered somebody, like your honor is a great one because he accidentally murdered somebody who was the son of a gang member. Oh.

Oh, so that's complicated. Very complicated. That's a TV show or a movie? Yeah, that's Bryan Cranston. Oh, we love Bryan Cranston. We do. Friend of the pod, but we have not seen it. Chan, where are you from originally? Toronto. Oh, you are. I'm from Detroit. And Toronto was the closest cool big city. Did you ever go to Carabana? What's Carabana? The Toronto Caribbean Festival. Oh, no. If you were black and from Detroit, you went to Carabana. Okay. Oh, fun. I believe that. Because...

And I don't know if you experienced this as a white man, but there is an exoticism to Americans for Canadians. Well, it's a mix, right? They're repulsed by our obnoxiousness, but they're drawn to our obnoxiousness. And I think I was in on that and enjoyed that interplay. But I was not at the Caribbean festival. I was on Yonge Street buying punk rock T-shirts and all those shitty little T-shirt shacks. So I was being extra white in my punk rockness. Yeah.

I love extra white. How long did you live there? When did you leave Toronto? And what did mom and dad do? My parents were both in the medical field, which is not uncommon for immigrants. But they also have a natural passion. So my mom was a nurse. My dad, same thing, came from a long line of nurses. He was a nurse for a second, and then he became a paramedic. My mom is born in England, but she is Dominican and Irish. And my dad...

is born in Guyana, and they both moved to England at a point. Then they both moved to Canada, and then they met in a medical setting, and then two weeks later, they were engaged. And did that pan out for them? Yes, because they're still together. Wow. Okay, I'm going to give you a complicated story

Because I myself get this compliment. I don't know how to take it all that well. Often people will tell me, in real life, you're much better looking. Oh, God. And then I'm left to go like, am I super ugly on screen or I just really deliver in person? But you're very pretty on screen. I watched the master class. But you're like outrageously beautiful in person. What? Yeah.

You are. Thank you. Yeah, right? I had to look to you to see if this is a normal statement that's made. Well, he makes all kinds of statements. Everything he says, he believes. It's kind of an answer. There's no, yeah. Whether it's crazy or not is a different question. But yes, you are very beautiful. Thank you. I also look to you to co-sign the compliment. This happens sometimes.

where you give compliments that sometimes hurt people's feelings. Well, I started by saying it's a complicated compliment, but I feel entitled to make it since I receive it so much. I know, but that's what you always do. And that's not true. Yeah, like you told me once, you're like me. You're not pretty enough. There's no way those were the words. Maybe you didn't say pretty enough, but you said attractive enough. You did. How could I possibly forget this? To book the like...

hot girl role, but you're not ugly enough to book the random outcast person. So that puts you in a tricky position booking wise. Okay, Shan, sorry that we've ensnared you in this, but let's be incredibly clear. I'm saying conventionally, societally, I've also been your biggest cheerleader saying you're beautiful. I know that. So I'm just acknowledging that, yes, when you were coming up, the ingenue was a white skinny girl and you had your work cut out for you. Yes, yes.

Which is all true. You're so beautiful. You have incredible skin. Thank you. And what a great choice to wear. Thank you. I just got the sweater. Really? You don't always wear lavender? No, but I want to. You always should. You really should. But I know what you mean. I think you look like a person. I do. It's correct.

But it did hurt my feelings. Okay, okay. Because 15 years later, I'm still thinking about it. Okay, okay. Okay, so my apologies. You know what happens in real life, I think? Because this also just happened to us with Michelle Williams, which is eyes can be...

this huge breakthrough in person. They're 2D when you're looking at them on TV or in film. Malcolm Gladwell. Have you ever met Malcolm Gladwell? I've never met Malcolm Gladwell. Another Canadian, immigrant parents. You guys could bond. But his eyes are so fucking playful in person that I was like, he might be the hottest guy. It's so unexpected. He is very attractive. Yes, yes. Well, attraction is sort of part of it. I feel like if ever there were an interview with that, I could... This is

Completely appropriate. I'm having a blast. Okay, okay. I'm having a wonderful time. Okay, so what did you initially study in college and what college was that? I initially went to school for print journalism at Centennial College. I also took some U of T, University of Toronto courses there. And so I became...

sex educator at University of Toronto while I was in college. So it sort of became the two marrying together of this is the story that I like to tell and I like to share information about this with people who really want it. And that pretty much was the beginning. I started into this space being like,

you know, sex ed should be more sexy. It should be more engaging, more interesting, more fun. It should be just as enjoyable. Playful, can we add? Playful, wet. Okay. Oh, wow. Yes, yes, yes. Expansive, surprising. Do you have an explanation of what,

drew you to that field? Growing up, I was just fascinated by bodies. Oh, God, me too. I loved bodies. I loved intimacy. In movies, did you like male or female bodies or both? Can you think of some? The earliest memory I can think of of identifying I liked bodies is I liked seeing my grandma naked. Oh, wow. There we go. But it was just because...

And I even noticed this with my language to my kids. They just don't want to have clothes on. They're two and four. And it's like, hey, your body is for your family. You can be naked around your family all you want to, but it's just for your family. I think that maybe I was given that message in growing up and I just knew if I saw people naked, I was close to them. So it gave a sense of intimacy, a sense of humanity to them. It signified you were in the inner circle. Yes. It meant something. Like even to this day, I love men's feet. There's a psychological explanation as to why people have foot

fetishes. Oh, what is it? I know that. Because in the part of the brain that registers pleasure, the feet are right beside the genitals, which are also where the nipples are. So that's why you can get nipplegasms or people often have foot fetishes. I also think for me, though, you don't see men's feet often. I'd love to see yours right now. Oh, you would throw up. I don't know.

I'm going to warn you now. At the end, I still want to keep the rhythm going. This would be a really disruptive experience for you. But that's why it's so right. Like there's something about you're in this deep inner circle. My husband and I started off as friends of benefits. And I really want to use the preterm, which is F buddies, because we were not even friends. He always wore socks and I didn't have air conditioning at my spot.

So I'd be having sex with a glazed donut. And he would have these socks on the whole time. I'm like, if you're so hot, take your socks off. And he just wouldn't. And so the day that he did. You felt accepted. And I love those gnarly toes. I really do. I can't.

I can totally relate to this. Was he insecure about how his feet looked or he just was someone who liked the tactile sensation of them being covered? Do we know? I don't know if he has ever said I'm insecure about my feet, but he definitely always wore socks and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because they never see the sun. So they become white. Yeah. They don't get any sunlight to the toenails. So they're kind of yellowish. I can totally relate to connecting intimacy to something atypical.

I had this weird fetish. They already know. Everyone already knows. You don't have to be protective. If a boy was sick, I was very drawn to that because of the helping and the nurturing and the intimacy that goes on between someone who is sick and a caretaker. And

I'm cutting it. No, I love that. You must keep it. I talk about it a lot, but every time I say it, it still sounds weird. Am I wrong in remembering that we drilled pretty deep into that? And part of that was...

If I make myself essential or needed, it'll overcome this barrier they have because they're not going to like me because I'm brown. But if they are vulnerable and need something and I can give it to them, that would be a way in. There's so many parts to it. That's definitely one. One is kind of like what you're saying about the feet. Most people don't want anyone around when they're sick. I don't.

And so to like let me in feels like a privilege or the deepest level of connection. Trust. Trust. The hot nurse fantasy is a thing. It's a very common thing. I was thinking about it on the way over here. You know, whenever I start a podcast, usually I'd be starting it off thinking like, let's talk about sex, baby. Let's talk about you and me. Let's talk about all the good.

things and the bad things. There's another layer to that for me now. I do look at sex as such a space for where all of you belongs. And if you're with somebody who accepts that, it's like the ultimate space of acceptance. I watched White Lotus this season. It was my favorite. Me too. Of all the three. People did not like it, but the concepts of sex and how it

brings together so many humanities. And then I thought about that guy who had that really intricate desire for sex. Oh, Sam Rockwell. Yes, because he thought that it had to mean something deeper if he had those thoughts. He took it to like a whole different level when in genuineness, he just wanted to play in that facet of shared humanity. So maybe it is that you're into the nurse fantasy because there's something deeper or maybe it's just a side of yourself that you're like, I get to play and delight in this specific space.

Yeah.

Play with the idea of penis envy or play with the idea of race play or existentialism of power dynamics. If not here, then where? If not now, this is your trip on planet Earth. What department is the sexology degree? Is that part of psych or what is that part? Yeah. So I don't have a sexology degree. So my education, I graduated from college, put out a book.

Years later, I got certified as a sexologist. And then I went and got a degree in psychology. I got my master's. And then now I'm an ASEC certified sex educator. And that's actually how I label myself as an educator. It's what I love doing. I love teaching. I like sharing ideas. That's how I learn best. I like to get an idea and then derive my own meaning from it versus sit with somebody who creates meaning with me. So that's just my thing. So what was your career leading up?

You wrote the book, obviously. And then did you have clients or patients? No. So I started off journalism. I think it's an important base because that's what I wanted to do, share and tell stories. So my big aha was essentially I was extremely sexually precocious as a younger kid. And naturally, like if your kid's drawn to the piano, you're like, let's get them classes. If your kid's drawn to the body, you're like, let's get them the Bible.

So that's that. In a negative way, my parents did a wonderful job, but they were in their 20s, they were young, and they had this kid who had this interest and across the street from us with a Catholic school. So I went there because it was most convenient and it was just not an encouraged part of me. So when I got a little older and hormones came into play, I had this natural interest now mixed in with raging hormones. And I realized if I tell my parents or people who are my elders about this, it will make them hate me.

dislike me, get upset with me, want to separate from me. It's dirty, impure, disappointing to them. So what do you do? You watch porn, right? You find whatever you can find. And so I read books, I watched porn, I looked at movies as my Bible. And when I turned 19 years old,

I had multiple sexual experiences, no orgasms, very low self-esteem. And I was at a crossroads where I thought, okay, either all the adults were right. This is extremely dangerous, hellish part of life that I'm drawn to maybe because I have some kind of original sin issue with me. Or it's good, I just have bad information. So I decided to get a library card and read everything I could. And essentially my big aha was sex ed needs to be sexy. More people need to know about this. This needs to be brought to the masses. So that was always...

where I was coming from. I never had a desire to do one-to-one work or clinical work or research-based work. It was how do I get great information and distill it down to a space that feels exciting, wet. All those beautiful adjectives you use to describe good sex

How can sex ed feel the exact same way? And that was when I was 19. So that's 21 years ago. Now, when I was a kid and you would have missed her, I presume, as Dr. Ruth. Of course not. You know Dr. Ruth. She's a legend. Dr. Ruth meets Rihanna is how I like to describe myself. Ha ha ha ha ha.

That's great. Did you know about Sue Johansson? No, tell me about Sue Johansson. Well, she was Canadian, so I didn't know if Canadian adjacent you may have heard of her. But she was the Canadian version of Dr. Ruth. I remember being a kid and Dr. Ruth had a call-in show on the radio and I loved listening to that. And also, I think the packaging's relevant for the sex experts. Like her really tiny stature and her accent, it did so much to de-stigmify and give some levity to this topic. I think if it came in a different package...

In the 80s, I'm not sure that America would have been ready for it. 100%. Sue Johansson, I worked with her when I was in my late teens when I was just getting started. And I sent her my first book, which was called Laid. And the concept of Laid was, tell me the story about sex, but don't skip the good parts. Even if they had a negative aftermath, you ended up with herpes or an unwanted pregnancy. Here's some real stories, but everything in between. The butterflies that you felt the first time that you looked at that person. What you thought when you saw their body naked for the first time. Tell me all of it.

And Sue Johanson read it and she was like, this is not going to work. She's like, you need to embarrass people into doing the right things. You have to tell women, imagine your breasts flopping from side to side and sweat going everywhere. Imagine your partner seeing sweat in between your belly folds. That's what you have to do to get people to make better choices when it came to sex.

Because she ideally wanted abstinence for people unless they were in committed relationships or something. I think when it came to teen sex that are younger people, abstinence was sort of what the driving force goal was. But there was a little bit of embarrassment tactics that also was unifying for people because we weren't taking it too seriously.

We had this 80-year-old lady who was sitting there with a vulva puppet and, you know, jamming it with a can of liquid death, right? And that's what the kind of show and stick was. So I think things have definitely changed since then. I'm not very familiar with Dr. Ruth's work because different country. Yes. Now we have, I'm going to put Esther Perel in this space. Oh, yes, yes.

But you must love her, right? We love her. Obsessed, yes. Absolutely phenomenal. Game changer, thought leader. What I love about Astaire, what she does so uniquely, because now we all kind of have access to the information. Amazing. 21 years ago, I had to go to a library to the far depths of the back and secretly read things, not even check them out because I was too embarrassed.

And today you can look it up anywhere. What Astaire does, though, is she takes that universal information and she brings it into her own world and then allows you to do the same with the information. So I just think that she has such a gifted mind, not just her delivery, but the way that she distills information. I've probably watched everything, listened to everything. I've been to her tour. I think she's phenomenal. It's hard not to notice the parallel between

this interesting accent in a small package. There's some recipe there that is disarming. I understand. But do you think Dr. Ruth's accent was the same as the stairs? Nope. But I just think they both have accents and they're both short ladies and there's something that can't be coincidental. All right, then let me take my

Heels off. No, no, no. Keep... Well, because sex is intimidating. The topic can be intimidating. And so the vessel for the information, if it's not very... Although I think Estera is very intimidating, actually. Oh, yeah, absolutely. She's so brilliant. She's such a boss. But when she walks in, maybe people don't expect it. And...

Maybe that lowers the threshold. I'm going to argue, too, there's some magic in the outsiderness of it. I think because this country, and I can't speak for Canada, but we have a cultural repression and there's numerous explanations for that. I think we should get into why this country is so repressed and terrified to talk about sex. So it's almost like

Because it's an outsider, I think if it's an insider, we start lobbying on all of our judgments and projections onto them because they're one of us. But there's something about them being from the outside that I think helps. I wonder. There was something that I learned in sexology school when they were talking about the relationship between how porn looks and a country's perception of sex.

And so in Thailand, for example, where sex is more normalized, you hear about it growing up, you know that it happens. There's just more conversation around it. Their porn tends to look like everyday people because that's your socialization of it. But for us, we're like, we don't do that. Nobody does that. And so your porn has to look like

massive tits you've never seen before, giant throbbing penises, because it has to be as far removed from your reality as possible for you to engage with it. Okay, so let's talk about the history of it a little bit, because I read this incredible book on killing, which talks about our fascination with killing. And you can pretty much chart it. It correlates perfectly with the further and further detached we get.

from killing, the more and more we're obsessed with it. So we used to, grandma and grandpa died in the house. You buried grandma and grandpa in the backyard. You killed animals. You had this firsthand experience with it. So for 250,000 years, we lived in a one room dwelling. You heard mom and dad have sex. You heard aunt and uncle have sex. Then we moved to these separated individual bedrooms. And then all of a sudden, everyone's completely removed from this experience that for

99% of our time on Earth, we were quite intimately close to. And so it's developed all these interesting things, not unlike the fascination with killing, which is like you're kind of not educated on it.

You have no sense of whether you're good or bad at it. I really believe this is a part of people's insecurity around sex. If you take up basketball, you can go to the park and evaluate, are you good or bad? Are you medium? It's easily discovered. If you're a singer, any pursuit in life other than sex, all of us are like, I hope I'm good. How would I know other than I'm going to watch a porno with these people that don't resemble me and they're having sex that's completely unrealistic and I'm going to evaluate myself against that if I'm a 15-year-old boy.

So what do you think about that notion just that it's hard to know whether you're competent or not? I think the difference between killing and sex is that for sex, one day you wake up and you're supposed to be amazing at it. Despite the fact that you've never got any education or scaffolding and experience, you haven't seen it before. All of a sudden, you're 23 or 24. And I think a lot of immigrant people can relate to this. Are you East Indian? Mm-hmm. Well, South, yes. Oh, South. All of a sudden, you just wake up and it's like, well, where's your husband? It's like, well, for these...

Past however many years, I was discouraged from having a boyfriend, from having a crush, from acknowledging this part of myself. And then there's this automatic switch that happens. And then you get a husband. You're supposed to be their everything in the bedroom while still keeping all the puritanical and religious expectations and cultural expectations. So that, I think, is the real mind F when it comes to sex. And you've seen media. So you saw...

Fatal Attraction and you saw this movie, like you've seen a very heightened and romanticized and scored version of it all. That's floating around. Yes. You've seen acting. Yes. And then you're like, I guess it should be like that. Yeah, I guess it's like almost watching the NBA secretly.

And then one day being like, now I'm going to play the best basketball of my life. You never got to practice. No one ever took you to the court before. You never had a coach. And I'm going to measure myself against Michael Jordan because that's the only thing I've seen. Yes. The sad part is admitting that you're probably not the best at it is actually the ultimate defeat. You have to delusionally pretend that you just have it all figured out. Here's the paradox. To get a girl interested in you, she wants to have sex with someone who knows what they're doing. She probably doesn't know what she's doing.

So you're exuding this confidence and knowledge in an attempt to be appealing to them. Very few young boys are going to go out and be like, here's the sitch. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I'm going to come in about five seconds. Yes. Are you down? They know better intuitively.

they know better than to do that. So it's a big paradoxical trap. It's interesting when you think about sex because often we think about the orgasm gap. And when I began, it was three to one. So for every three orgasms, a straight man had, a straight woman had one. Now it's two to one. I think that's a huge win. When I first started in this space, the big...

question was, where's the clitoris? Like, how do you find that thing? And now we're all like, everybody, it's right there. So there's definitely improvements, but I also have so much empathy for how hard it is to be a man. I have a class on Masterclass, the Art of Sex Appeal. When you do a Masterclass, they research all of your stuff and they put together a curriculum for you because they don't expect Usher to sit there and, you know, write 50 pages of a curriculum. So I

For me, they provided this and you obviously get to tweak and tailor and rewrite it. But the section on how to have better sex for a woman was all about multiple spots, multiple orgasms, embracing yourself, rejecting social sexual scripts, et cetera. And the section on men or people with penises was really just how to last longer. I'm like, that's it?

That's all we get. Every position was designed for how to last longer. I'm like, how incredibly unfair is this? Also in consideration of the fact that from an evolutionary perspective, a man who comes quick is the hero of the town. He's all passed on his genes. It's taken four hours. So I think that there's something to be said for how none of us have really gotten the long end of the stick, even those with the longest penis. Okay, so I'm going to now share something personal that happened to me that I think

God for my whole life, which is I met a girl and she was a lot older than me. She was probably 21 when I was 15. And I think it was a surprise to her we were hooking up as well. I should say I'm sorry that happened to you. I love this and I couldn't be more grateful for this. I think that age gap made her confident enough to go step, step, step. I'm going to tell you what to do. And she broke it all down, the clitoris, everything for me at 15 and

And I remember thinking, well, what a crazy gift I got. I think she saved me a decade of trying to figure stuff out. Do you know what's great? Did that then create a culture of accepting women as the experts of their own body? Uh-huh. Because it doesn't stop with that partner, right? I learn stuff every...

I am blown away by that. My whole life's work, I'm just constantly learning new terms. I didn't know that an upside down pineapple said you were a swinger. I just learned this recently. Tell me more about that. You wear a key chain or something? You come to someone's house, if there's an upside down pineapple, it's to signify. Or if they go out to a club, we wear an upside down pineapple. It's a way of creating some lubrication.

make it easier to ask the question. I'm now glancing at all your jewelry. I don't see any. Shut up my game. I just noticed this weekend. I got a whole wardrobe thing to redo. I've heard it recently too. Yeah. But I am curious if that then started a culture versus the culture that a lot of men come into where it's like,

You have to teach me about my body. You have to be the one to show me a whole new world. Oh, meaning the guy's supposed to explain to the woman? Yes. Yes. That's not going to work. Not for young people. Not for anyone. Yeah. The asterisk of all that would be certainly her playbook. I couldn't graph it perfectly onto every woman. Everyone has their own idiosyncrasies and their own specific desires and pressures and how much contact. But the architecture of that was...

Was very informative. You're not going to just be able to pump me for 90 seconds and make this wonderful for me. Okay, great. There's more going on. Tell me what's going on. And just the knowledge that these other things need to be considered and explored and questioned and figured out was helpful as all hell. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

We are supported by Skims. Yes, let's talk about Skims. I have been raving about their ultimate bra collection. They sent me some new items, which was very nice of them. I pretty much live in this bra. It's so comfortable, but it's also cute. You never know when your bra is going to need to be showing. Yeah, you got to be prepared for the best case scenario. And actually, I really do believe this, that

You kind of have to work from the outside in confidence wise. And so when you get dressed in the morning, you want to put on a cute pair of underwear and bra. And the ultimate bra is the move. It is. Skims does it again. Check it out for yourself. Shop Skims Ultimate Bra Collection and more at Skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey and select our show in the drop down menu that follows.

There's some incredible TV coming out of the UK right now. Brits just do it differently. The accents, the wit, the scenery, the devastating one-liners disguised as compliments. It's all streaming on BritBox. They have the best mysteries, dramas, comedies, and seriously addicting originals like Outrageous, based on the true story of the Mitford sisters. And they're all

They were kind of like the Kardashians of the 1930s. Wealthy, audacious, chaotic, wildly opinionated, and always making headlines. And chances are you've never heard their story. It's stunning. It's jaw-dropping. It's very British. So check out Outrageous. It could be your next favorite. Don't miss Outrageous, streaming now only on BritBox.

This is Nick. And this is Jack. We're best friends, ex-finance guys, and resident 90s experts. And every week on our podcast, The Best Idea Yet, we're bringing you the untold stories behind your favorite products. For instance, can you guess which billion-dollar fashion company went viral thanks to a rhinestone-covered tracksuit? Or which cartoon turned four turtles into a global toy empire by accident? It started as a joke. Last one, which cold beverage was so hated by Starbucks that

They actually ended up acquiring it. Spoiler, the Frappuccino. Howard Schultz apparently thought cold coffee was super lame, and then he bought it. From Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to Juicy Couture to the Orange Mocha Frappuccino. Join us every week to learn how your favorite things got made. Follow The Best Idea Yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. And you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. And if this podcast lasts longer than 45 minutes, call your doctor. Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

I know a lot of people who have a really great sex life or had a very good formative sex life, people with vulva specifically, it's because they had sex with other women. And that allowed them to get the idea that their pleasure mattered, that it belonged in part of the conversation. Also to just empathize

Empathizing with the drive. You can't even relate or imagine to the drive of a teenager, specifically with testosterone. They'll say or do anything. Just the desire to come is probably equivalent to starving. I appreciate that you're acknowledging that. When you talk to, especially dudes my age that are now not afraid to talk about what they were doing from 12 till 20, dudes are masturbating sometimes.

like eight times a day. Everyone has a story of like getting busted by their mom and there's somewhere they shouldn't be doing it. And they just fucking got to do it. Yeah, I just heard the story about one of my male friends who in seventh grade during class was getting a handjob from this girl. Oh my goodness. This is like a friend of mine I know very well. And I was like, what? But yes, that's the drive. No fear. Yes. The only thing that matters is confidence.

getting off. And then I think maybe unfortunately for the girl, the only thing that sort of matters is pleasuring him. But you don't know what crazy things he said to her before. He's starving. Yeah, yeah. He will say anything. And I relate. Don't get me wrong. I think that I have really high sex drive and

Even now, I do my best not to suffer from presentism. I have a sex ed series with Crash Course and the Kinsey Institute that's for teens. And it can be really easy to kind of use your 40-year-old brain to rationalize. It's not the same. I ran track and field and I was away at camp and I was masturbating like in a bed beside a stranger. I didn't want to do that. Yeah.

I didn't want to. I felt so much shame. I've masturbated before in cars, parked on the side of the road, on airplanes. I didn't want that life. Sure, sure. But it was like a compulsion. Insatiable compulsion, right? Oh, yeah. Sometimes I don't want to eat that Krispy Kreme, but it's there. It's getting eaten. Yeah.

Now, I think we should talk about the interesting societal pressures. So conventionally, what was preventing this communication is for the young woman to know what she wants exactly would somehow be telling on herself that she's slutty or a whore. That that knowledge would somehow infer they're fighting that right. Like if I don't want to come across as a whore. This was the old architecture. And of course, we hate it.

And then the boy is going, I'm supposed to be a pro at this and I'm supposed to fuck you like we're in a porno and for as long as you want it. And so the person that needs the most instruction in this scenario is the boy. And he's the one supposed to be the know-it-all. And then the one who's got the information is probably disincentivized to share the information. So like what a terrible construction for communication to happen or learning or anything.

I think in best case scenario, the woman has the information. But even for me, I still come across women in my age group who don't masturbate or never masturbated. So some of them don't even have that basic information of how do I get off? I genuinely have so much faith for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, which I think is the one behind them.

for the conversations they get to hear. And just, again, the basic knowledge of where things are and what's supposed to feel pleasurable. And we were even talking to my niece and nephew about the clitoris and they were like, oh yeah, we all develop female first and the clitoris is just this, penis is that. I feel much better for them. But I do think that even having a woman

maybe 10, 20 years ago, who knew what she liked was a bit rare. Yeah, that's a good point. That 21-year-old is actually a pioneer because I didn't know what was going on at 21. So I watched the Masterclass. As always, Masterclass beautifully produced.

They do such a bang-em-up job. They do. Okay, so part one is better, hotter, and more passionate sex. And you start with foreplay. So let's discuss foreplay because I think a lot of people have a singular view of what foreplay is. I think of foreplay as engagement that is sexual that is not going to get you off.

So I take oral sex out of foreplay because for many people, specifically those of all of us, that's core play. And foreplay can sound like the appetizer to dinner and appetizers are optional. So I like to differentiate foreplay from core play. But foreplay is anything that is erotic in nature that's not going to get you off. So that's like dirty talk.

Even for yourself, showering and shaving and selecting an underwear and panty that match is a part of foreplay, right? It's preparing your body for sexual release and for tension to be gone. I also love the Kama Sutra for this reason because it gives all these incredible ideas for foreplay. You may have heard the stat before that all bodies get hard and wet.

It takes around 12 to 20 minutes to become fully erect. Some people up to 40 minutes. But when you hear that and your idea of foreplay is making out and a little bit of a handjob, you're like, we're about seven minutes in and we're out of ideas. Why not tell each other some sexy stories or make up some fiction, draw each other? In the Kama Sutra, they said that every good lover should have an easel by their bedside to draw their lover naked. Oh.

Playing games, perfuming. There's so many different things we can do when we expand foreplay aside from engaging with the genitals or major erogenous zones to just getting somebody ready to feel something beautiful. Yeah, we had an expert on, I can't remember exactly who, but they broke down the two different arousal types and they seem to be heavily gendered. Are you talking about spontaneous versus responsive? Yep.

This plays into that nicely. Let's hit that again. Yeah, let's hit it again. So the idea that spontaneous desire is what was experienced in that class that day. He's like, this teacher is talking about algebra, but I gots to get mine. Yeah. Right? And it's an overcoming. It's what you see in the notebook and in movies, right? You're just drawn to that person. It's animalistic. It's irrational. I just need you. And generally, it's brain first.

So it's the brain has a fantasy. The brain has a thought. The brain's thinking about sex. And then the body's got to catch up. Yes. I've actually never heard it worded that way. That's perfect. And then the other version, which is body first. You killed that. I expected to come here to learn. And so I'm happy to be getting some new stuff. I did, yeah. In that way, if we're saying a lot of women are responsive,

response first? Is that what it is? That's what our previous expert said. Yeah. Then when that means body first, I would have expected the other way around. That's why I like it because brain first sounds like sapiosexuality or demisexuality where there has to be a connection. Right. But it's not that. It's like you turn yourself on, your brain decides to start pumping those neurochemicals. It's launching these fantasies. Yes.

And then your body starts to throb and it needs it. Whereas with body first, it's that you're not thinking about it. You don't feel it in the brain. But once somebody is engaging with you and performing foreplay. It's hair play for you. It could be innocuous hair play. And then all of a sudden your scalp is tingly and now other parts of your body. Right. And now your body's aroused and then your brain goes, oh, I want sex.

Right. Your brain is lagging. Catches up. I see. I see. I see. Oh, that's interesting. Which also kind of speaks to multidimensional roles. I've been doing a lot of studying recently about dual mating strategy. It makes me kind of reflect on that a little bit. Even the most monogamous animals are likely to be monogamous 88% of the time. There's still that 12% that requires that. But with dual mating strategy, it's essentially that you choose one partner that would be a good parent and a caregiver and provider.

And you choose another that you're sexually attracted to who has the superior genes. Oh, wow. And so there's something to reflect on on that for why in longer term relationships, it does become heavily based on responsive desire versus spontaneous desire. That's really interesting because I think for women especially, you feel like you really need to be both of those things. You need to be...

super sexually desirable and you need to be a good mom, a nurturer. You have to be all of it to be a good woman. I think it's universal. It's universal. That's Esther's point, right? Is that we ask of our partners to be all of the things, a provider, a confidant, a best friend, then elusive and intriguing and novel. We want our partners to be every single thing. The best dad and the hottest, most unavailable dude to fuck me. Yeah.

Yes. Naturally, as you get older and you stop having that insatiable sex drive, and then you have a partner that you have this stable, loving relationship with that's heavily based on trust and comfort. The reason why I really like what you said about brain versus body first, it also just invites you then to bring spontaneous desire back into your relationship by turning yourself on first. Listening to an erotic book, telling yourself erotic stories, all the sort of tips I gave before, giving a long shower for yourself, figuring out what turns you on. And then there's also asking questions like,

Are you open to double penetration? Or not open to, but like, do you desire or how do you feel about double penetration? There's a lot of different questions that force your brain to start considering sex. Especially because, you know, when you go to a restaurant from a different country, if I asked you, what do you want? And you're like, I don't know, right?

Right? So I think a lot of times with sex, we often say to somebody, well, what do you want? Tell me what you want. And without acknowledging that many of us were never given a menu. We were never shown a variety. I mean, if we were, it was through a variety of porn categories that may not necessarily be applicable with our partner. So I think having...

those questions that are pointed allow somebody a chance to reflect on something they may have never even considered before. Yeah. And again, I'm going to speak in very broad stereotypes, but I'm friends with many, many married people. And oh, one great comforting thing. Did you watch Couples Therapy? We love it with Orna. I didn't watch Couples Therapy. You must watch it. Oh my God, you must. And it's coming back this month. It's so fucking good. But what you will learn...

that across the board in all relationships, someone wants more sex than the other. That's just standard. It could be the woman. It could be the man. In my circle, generally guys want more from their wives. I think it's really helpful to guys to understand you can be at work thinking of what you're going to do and you're there.

But if what you want is more sex, you need to bring her body into where your brain is at. And the foreplay is the only answer for that. You don't want her to get in the mood for sex seven minutes into penetration. It's a lot of people's reality. And it's still a win if you get into the mood. But I do agree that the best case scenario is where we want to want it. And we want that together. And that's...

Also where you can supersede scheduling sex and go to intention setting where we can sit and be like, we both really want to do this. So when do we have the time versus get out the planner? Let's figure this out together. What have you found out that has worked for you? If this is not too much of a personal question, but what can you offer your partner that gets them in the headspace? Acts of service. I know for her, for all the women that you're talking about, we're in a big friend group and the men that you're saying who want more sex.

That's the way to get it from these women for sure. We call that chore play. Ooh, chore play. Maybe we should really put a fine point on that. So chore play, is it self-evident? I guess so. Do some chores. I mean, more just like I thought of you. I thought of you. I thought what is going to make your life easier and our life easier, and I did it. That is hot.

That's a way to establish some foreplay. I'll co-sign on that. Yeah, I think I wanted to do the version which I like doing. Let's go to dinner and let's talk and I'll pay really good attention to you and ask a lot of questions. And yes, probably more acts of service and not like out of a romantic movie is more effective. Yeah. But I think a lot of guys think, oh, I go down on her and then she'll want to have sex. But you're including...

oral in just core sex. So no, that's not going to be foreplay. No, that's not going to be it. Or they think it's like slapping on the ass or like squeezing the tits or being like, it's been a while. It's been a while. That's always a libido blaster. It's been a while. It's a little guilt, a little shame. It's just knowing it. I talk about turn on triggers. And of course, there's infinite ways of thinking about these similar to love languages. But by and large, most people kind of fit in different categories. Like my husband would fit underneath essentialist or environmentalist.

It has to be the environment. He's very cognizant. We were having sex last night and the window was open and we could hear people talking outside. And that's hot to me. But I was just like, let me just set my watch when he's going to get up and close these windows. And sure enough, he's going to. So that will take him out. And for me, I just like direct carnal, almost teenage desire.

I just want to feel like you just can't even help yourself around me. So a text that's very dirty talk will hit for me. For him, it's preparing the room, making sure that the kids can't hear us, putting on music, making sure that he has time to shower. All of those are essential for him to feel like, okay, now.

Right. Getting rid of all the distractions. And I don't care. I could have sex on a pile of dirty newspapers with everybody watching. So that's the importance of acknowledging those small differences. Whenever I hear couples talk about that, of course it's normal to have imbalances. It's actually a great privilege to have imbalances in libido or in anything because it creates the culture of figuring it out. I have talked to a lot of couples, specifically on reality shows, like a friend of mine was on The Bachelor and you start out hot and heavy. Sure. And you have this

amazing chemistry and then life happens and you don't have that anymore and now it's really hard to have that conversation because the story that you've told yourself about your relationship is that we have amazing sexual chemistry it doesn't require any work and if we do then something is fundamentally wrong and our story no longer works so

That's really difficult. So I'm like, if you start off with incompatibility, you're off to the races because now you have a built-in culture of having those kinds of discussions. Because truth of the matter is, the pendulum is going to be swinging in opposite ways. And like once in a while, you're going to line up. But most of the time, you're going to be doing different things. Okay, so I now know one of your erogenous zones is your lower back. Yes. Yes. And rubbing your lower back. What's the nerve?

Now, what happens when the last thing you're thinking about is sex, you have something very important the next day and your husband starts rubbing that erogenous zone? Are you not like, fuck, he knows the math and now he wants it. Do you not leap forward to like, well, he's just trying to fuck. It's hard to outsmart

In some way. Well, it shouldn't be an outsmarting. Yes. Well, if you want to have sex and you would like your partner to be in the mood, I think that's a totally fine pursuit. Yeah, of course. And then so you know, oh, great. So she likes this. I gave her a glass of wine. Now I'm going to rub her. But you're like, fuck, he got me in wine. He's rubbing my panus nerve.

I know where this is going. And when I don't like this, knowing where this is going, like, how do we deal with that? There's something about that that feels like, don't try to outsmart my body. Don't be sneaky about it. It's not sexy to be sneaky. That coercive sneakiness, it just kind of feels cowardly a little bit. Like, I want you to own your desire or own what you're looking for. Look me in the eye and have that conversation. And if you're feeling my energy, don't.

is tired and overwhelmed, it would be more helpful for you to be like, I'm going downstairs right now and pack the kids lunch from now so we can sleep in five minutes more. That would be more of a turn on than being like, oh, she's tired. Let me just...

Do that lower back trick. And then that feels like, really? So I think it's not looking for the cheat codes and instead trying to make intimacy something that we voluntarily, excitedly, when we have the intention, we want to do this thing together. And so we're on the same team of wanting to do it. Sounds like chores are bigger than we're. It might be really the headlines chores. Yeah, it's huge. Okay, now hold on. You're very smart.

You're like, fuck, he just offered to make the lunges. He never makes them. He's going to fucking, I know what he's up to. By rubbing the pituitary. Gland, yeah. Releasing some HGH. Even if you like it, that's not something off of your plate. Listen, we know how the brain works. What gives you dopamine is the unknown. So I'm going to rub your...

- Pumice nerve sometimes. - Pumice stone. - And then I'm gonna pick up my book and read. - Yes. - I'm gonna rub her pumice gland. - I love that. - And then I'm gonna pick up my book and read. - Oh, I see. - And she'll be like, "Huh, that's weird. I thought you were trying to fuck." No, you just rubbed my thing. I think if you mix in enough unexpected outcomes

Now, every time the pituitary gland gets rubbed, you too don't know. It's the deliciousness of erotic ambiguity. And we lose that in long-term relationships. And that's why toxic relationships or toxic dick is often so revered. But-

Erotic ambiguity is when I know that you're attracted to me. I know that I'm attracted to you. We know that there's something there, but we don't know if we're going to have sex. There's this question. And sometimes in long-term relationships, that question gets dissolved. And it's like, well, let's do it. It's like, let's just play in that area of the unknown. Like I love to pretend I'm not going to give it up.

And I need you to believe in your heart that I might not. Right. Like I require that for that to sort of sit deliciously between us. And so your partner doing that, something to get you turned on and then pulling back. You're also just going back to like date three, which is I'm going to do this thing. It could just be I'm showing her I'm good at a foot massage and it can end there. Yeah. Because that'll be a win because she doesn't know I'm good at a foot massage.

There's like little wins because it's not a foregone conclusion. So it's like, I think the more you can...

play with that, the better, the more exciting. Like the little pineapple in the house, you go in, you see it's there, but you don't know for sure. If you're going to get invited to swing. Right, yeah. Okay, so let's go into core play. You start with being multi-orgasmic. Is everyone potentially multi-orgasmic? Yeah, an orgasm is a sudden release of sexual tension. It's interesting because the brain is the biggest sex organ. And so I can orgasm in my sleep

So that's it. But other than that, it's only clitoris for me. I can do clitoral plus that provides a different sensation, but I have friends or I know of people who can orgasm from nipple play or from their toes being sucked or back of the knee. I've heard it before. Anus, of course, one of them. Of course, penetration without any outer clitoral stimulation that occurs. So some people can be. If you can orgasm one way, that's a win. There's a delight...

in looking to see where your pleasure potential is, but it should never be the goal. That becomes exhausting. So I balk against this sometimes because it can feel like, well, if you're not multi-orgasmic, you're not really doing the sex right. And instead, it's more just enjoying and embracing what you have and then delighting in the fact that there could possibly be more. Again, it's back to you're trying to evaluate whether you are good or bad on it. And that seems to be the only metric a guy knows about. Yeah. Yeah.

So it's like, how else is one to evaluate themselves other than the orgasm? But then multi says that one's not good enough. There's got to be many, 17 times in a session or something. And then I also just reflect on the fact that most men don't identify with being multi-orgasmic and that's never like, oh,

Really? Right. I'm sorry that hasn't happened for you. Maybe with the right partner. You're just like, this is what works for me. I like it. And everyone's like, that's good enough. So it's both and. I didn't know about the A-spot. Can we talk about the A-spot? Yes. So the A-spot is a sensitive region. So it's the anterior fornix, which means towards the belly button, there's like a ridge that's there. And if you press forward, there's spongy tissue. And so the cervix is not pleasurable, but the A-spot is. So it's a little bit forward. And it's just a

above it. It's just above. So if your G spot or your G region or your inner clitoris, whatever you want to call it, is about a couple of inches in and forward, the A spot is probably the middle finger all the way to the top, which is why for most people who get simulation that way, a finger or a toy that can provide that consistent, reliable pressure is probably better than a penis. Unless your penis is plated with gold, a little curved, and can last a long time because your ancestors lived in a region where there weren't a lot of

pray around. So you had the luxury. Now, G-spot, there's no such thing. This was a revelation. Yeah. So I kind of gave you the slashes there. At the end of the day, I'm not a fan of telling anybody that what they experience is not real. Whatever you believe to be true is true. And so,

I actually just got a O-Shot last week. And essentially what the doctor does is they take blood from you and then they spin it to get the platelets and then they inject it in your G-spot and in your clitoris to make it larger and more sensitive. - Wow. - And she's very much a believer of the G-spot, but a lot of modern scientists today will tell you the G-spot doesn't exist.

Instead, as we know, the clitoris is shaped like a wishbone. And so it's just part of the clitoris, which even that is arguable because some people don't believe the vestibules are part of the clitoris. When did you get that last week? Yeah, I did. And how fast is that? Like, have you noticed a difference? I haven't.

You haven't. No, I wish I did. I've never had an orgasm before from penetration alone without clitoral stimulation at the same time. Two thirds of women, that's going to be their reality. So there's something really beautiful I think about that. You know, I'm a part of this league, but of course I'm open and expanded to more. I want whatever I can't have. I'm just,

interested in experiencing more. Have you had a prostate orgasm before? No, but I'd love one. Right? Absolutely. I'd be up for it in a second. Maybe you could take a shot. Definitely. Give me their number and see if they do prostate. Yeah, they do. They have P for sure, where they enlarge the coronal ridge of the penis to make that area more sensitive and large. Yeah. Oh, they're doing things. Yeah, they're doing things out here. But it also does like increase lubrication. The way I would describe having it, because I've had it done before, is it's

If it happened and I was asleep, I probably wouldn't have known that it happened. Now that I know it's happened, I think I'm just more like, maybe that's from this. Well, you're getting into the world of placebo. Which is fine. Yeah, which is real. Placebo is real. Yeah. Okay. Well, I just want to put a point on the G spot and the A spot. So what you're looking for, for our six guys listener is kind of a come hither motion.

Yeah, for the G, it's come hither. For the A, it's more like that. So it's like pressing the button for it. And then the G, you can kind of reflect on the fact that it's a larger area. So you're stroking that entire area versus a spot which you tap on. Right. So the A spot is more of a spot. It's hard on the fingers because you're way deep in there. So it's almost like that. You advise shoulder movements. Yeah, it takes some strength there. But the G spot is more of a region. So you're petting the region. Okay.

Squirting. You run straight at squirting. Yes. Let's hear about squirting. What do you guys think of squirting? I'm not against it if it happened. Yeah. Do you believe? Oh, do I believe it? I believe... Well, Howard says it's pee.

Howard Stern. Well, there was a guy and she goes into that. They analyzed the ejaculate and they on the Stern show at Dr. Fun that was your I, of course, was introduced to it in pornography. And I was like, absolutely. Some visual signal of it in the same way girls get a visual signal is so exciting. And it's

To not go too deep in this story, but I was doing a movie in Chicago and I was talking to the bartender. Deep into this long conversation, she said she doesn't hook up with many people because she has an embarrassing thing. And I'm like, oh, God, what is the embarrassing thing? And then she said, I'm a squirter. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so up for it. I think that was a pickup line. I do. It definitely worked.

And so I definitely experienced the full-fledged... So she did. Oh, yeah. That's amazing. And there are studies that say that it's just sexual incontinence. It's like both because you need a strong pelvic floor in order to squirt and expel. But some people have a weak pelvic floor, so they just pee on you. I think I like...

the consensus that it's coming from the urethra. We don't have what men have where you cannot pee and ejaculate at the same time. It's one or the other. And we don't have that. So it's very likely that you're getting some urine in there, but you also have the Bartholin gland, you have the Skeen's gland. And someone described it to me like, you know, when you're going to eat something sour, your mouth salivates. And some people, they salivate so much that it's almost like an

eek, it squirts out. So there can be some people whose glands, they react that way. So they do sort of eek out. But your recommendation was like, if you want to try this or explore this, pee before sex so you don't have in your mind, oh no, I'm going to pee. And then also too, the technique to doing it

is we use around the clock. So you do various different spots and you go around to P spot and you go A spot and you go G spot while you're doing outer clitoral stimulation. And while all this is happening, you as the person with the vulva are bearing down. It's different than peeing. Bearing down is almost like you're pushing a marble out of your vulva. Well, you're giving birth. You're giving birth to the squirt. Yeah. Whoa.

Whoa. Giving birth to the squirt. That's my next book. So that's the thing, too. I think people sometimes when they're trying to squirt, release is pleasurable. Sure. So if you have a partner who's down for it and you put down a towel and you're bearing down, who cares if it's a little bit of pee, right? Yeah. If they're into that. It's so fascinating, too, because, you know, like golden showers are like a very taboo thing. And squirting is perfectly normal. And majority of the time, like Sarah, you are lapping up at least some urine and you're loving it.

So bodies are cool. Why do we think that's taboo, golden showers? I think it's the power dynamics of it. You urinate on things that you don't respect. You put urine in the toilet. You think it's something the body has to expel. It is antiseptic, weirdly. It's not dangerous by any stretch. But yes, I think because it goes in a toilet, we think it's dirty.

But that's so silly because it's all fluid. There's so much fluid happening. We love saliva when we're kissing. We love vaginal lubricant. We love everything. It's all fluid. The sex positivity coming from this side is just radiating because most people are not relating to what you're saying right now. I know. Most people are like, do not. I don't want to have turned it off. Come on, guys. It's just bodily fluid.

fluids. Everyone in our friendship circle had watched this same TV show and it had a sex scene that was by my accounts awesome and other people were freaked out by it and it gave rise to a really great conversation and I think the thing people were missing is so much of sex is I trust you enough to

and I'm signaling to you, I would do things with you that you don't do with normal people. And that in itself is very rewarding and such a good signal that they're hung up on the like,

She spit in his mouth. Right. Because you can't spit in your co-worker's mouth. You don't spit in your mom's mouth. Like, yes, because this is the only person. It's not the spitting in the mouth. It's what it's symbolizing. Nothing about you is gross to me. Exactly. Yes, yes, yes. That sense of, wow, my whole self you don't think is gross is lovely. That is the most acceptance you can have. Okay. Prostate orgasm. I think any guy who saw American Pie said,

Didn't Stifler get a prostate orgasm? Did he get milked? I don't remember. I think so, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. So many people would not even dare try. There is still a lot of homosexual stigma around that part, which is insane. That your own body, even the nipples have that stigma. Yeah, my husband, I mean, he's half black, half white. But even when he was talking about it to his friends, they were like, exploring your own body is sus. It's gay. It's gay. It's so crazy.

Yeah. And he loves his nipples. That's his favorite thing. That's his thing. He loves his nipples. He's like, I would ask for that. He didn't even know that that was a part of like what he enjoyed. He's like, but now I'll ask that of anybody. I know it is really, really funny. I want to talk to these guys and like, do you think you'll be engaged in some kind of sexual activity with a woman?

And something will start feeling so good that you'll be like, I want a guy now. When they walk through that, are they afraid that's what's going to happen? I think that they're afraid that their partner and them will break up and their partner will tell other people and that they will assume that they're gay. And I have talked to enough women who have said or done things that reinforce this. So I completely understand why men think this way.

And you see what happens in the news kind of somewhat recently. It was Kanye and Amber Rose where she outed him for liking anal. And that actually became a joke in a movie. That's when you're like, I'll just keep this to myself. I'll go without it. But it's so funny because women, I don't think, have that stigma. It's like hot.

if a woman is touching herself or exploring now. Maybe that's changed over time. Yeah. Well, clitorectomies, I think there's a long history of women aren't supposed to be enjoying it. They're a vessel for the dude, and then hopefully a baby comes out. I mean more in general, if a man told their friend...

oh, she was touching herself. They're not going to be like, oh, she might be gay. They feel like that's hot. Right. Yeah, that's the difference for men there, which that sucks for men. Well, for prostate orgasms, you can either go kind of similar interior wall, two inches in and pressing forward. And then the milking sensation, it's the whole region. The prostate's the size of a walnut. Or you can get a toy like the magic wand, which is really powerful and put that up against the gooch.

And a lot of people, it's similar to the G-spot. It's not it by itself. You call the perineum the gooch? Yes, the taint. The gooch. Like Gucci. That feels elevated. It's the Gucci, baby. It's a hairless strip of wonder. Part of that, which we were just talking about, is you talk about the sexual social script. And one of the ways you can counteract this in your male partner is to say...

how manly it is that they are trying things. Yes, that it's hot, that they explore their body. It's interesting because when you speak to a lot of women in long-term relationships, the complaint is how boring sex is, how vanilla it is. Yet for so much of that man's life, he was stuck between this rock and a hard place between trying to perform uber masculinity of I know everything, I am the leader and the protection of the tightrope of heterosexuality, of

of constantly trying to prove that you're heterosexual. I don't relate to that. I don't have to wake up every day and think, well, what am I going to do to make sure people know? Yeah, girls on the playground weren't calling each other gay nonstop. Boys, that was the singular insult you heard nonstop. You can't have one experience or be attracted to one person.

watch one gay porn film and enjoy it without that meaning that like, well, you have to abandon your heterosexuality altogether. So it's difficult for, I think, for men to decouple themselves from the social sexual scripts much more than women. - Yeah. - That's a great point. Yeah, if you heard that a woman you knew hooked up with another woman in college, you'd be like, "Ha." And if you heard that a dude hooked up with another dude in college, you'd be like, "Oh, so you're gay, and now what? You're just living this lie? Clearly you want that." - Yes.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

Okay, positions. Love it. Everyone should watch this masterclass because it's going to be very educational. I know a dude from AA. I don't know why he decides to ask me this. And he's like, you know, I have sex with my wife and she rarely has an organ. I'm sure that's why she doesn't want to fuck. I'm like, well, she's using a vibrator. And he's like, no, should I get one? I'm like, yes, get this. And he's like, yeah, and then I want to last. I'm like, here, reverse cowgirl, give her a vibrator, intramuscular.

and try that out. Yes. And he came to the meeting and he's like, oh my God, you need to tell every guy this. No one knows this. And he's now telling everyone in the meeting, hey, if you talk to Dax, get your wife a... He was proselytizing and he was already 45. And I'm like, that's the state of male education is I just offhandedly suggest that. And he's like, oh my God, this is incredible. But also I wish...

She had earlier been like, I think I want to try bringing a toy to the scene. Uh-huh. Taking that into her own hands, too. Right. But I think that's why this will be really helpful is I was shocked to see that this person didn't know that at 45. So I have a hunch a lot of people will be watching this and be like, oh, wow. Okay, that's a great idea. It's so fascinating. The masterclass population is so huge.

Yeah, that makes sense.

They just have been doing it one way forever. And so they're like, this is what sex is. So why would I ask for a vibrator? It means so much to my husband to do it this particular way. And I value that. I value getting along versus getting my way. So this is the kind of sex that we have. So it's hugely revolutionary for people to introduce doggy style, a reverse cowgirl and a vibrator. So this information sometimes we think is common knowledge. It's really not. Even for women, I think it's so important to note is that a question we're often asked in the early stages of dating is like, what's your favorite position?

And you should be able to answer that based on your cycle. Well, during the luteal phase, I like this. During my ovulation phase, I like that because the position of your cervix is drastically different. Your hormones are different. So I think that the position conversation gets overly simplified, but there's a lot of rich knowledge to be shared there. Yeah.

Sex drive. What is SAR? You said ideally everyone would be able to take SAR. Sexual attitude reassessment. And it's a 40 hour course. I've done two. So the first one that I did was in San Francisco and we just watched porn for 40 hours. And the purpose of that is so that I see so much different varieties of what gets people off that when you tell me, Monica, that you love nurse play and the sicker, more oozier the person is, the more you're turned on. I'm like, okay.

You know, I just watched people do dog play. Yeah, you're not like shaken by it. Yeah, I'm like, oh, that makes sense. We had to watch one that was challenging for me to watch, which was genital nicking. So they use really sharp razors and they nick each other's genitals. And you have to watch that and you focus on their faces.

and how much joy they're experiencing. And they're doing it with somebody who likes it, who accepts that part of them. And that's really hot. So you learn to find sort of the yum, despite if that's your jam or not. Yeah. Tell people about ethical porn. Ethical porn essentially is porn where there's usually not like a studio involved. It's performer first. The performers say what they're going to be doing versus coming into a scene with like a written script

You're going to squirt at minute 12. You're going to get anal. You're going to say this. There's a conversation around what you would like, what feels body safe for you. And then it's also based on your pleasure. It's not an encouragement to fake or act or perform. And so rather than trying to force people to have multiple orgasms within a constructed environment, they say, what environment would allow you to have multiple orgasms? Okay, great. Let's create something around that. So Erica Lust, Balessa, ethical porn usually tends to mean orgasm.

women directors or women-led studios, but there's options out there. This has nothing to do with this, but I just think a lot of guys can relate to watching the porn. It's the best thing you've ever seen. The second after you come, you're like, oh my God, this guy is fucking disgusting. I'm going to turn this off.

This whole thing is fucking disgusting. Can you give me an example? Why? Just a ton of porn. Because you're so into it, you're great at ignoring all this stuff. Mostly with the guy, you're generally ignoring like, oh my God, he's doing that. The way he's talking, I can't say this. It's all tolerable in pursuit. And then the second you come in, like the frontal lobe comes back online and you're out of the midbrain. You're like, oh my God, I don't ever want to see this guy again as long as I live. Yeah.

But is that just you're projecting shame? It could be. It's very common. Or just cringy. I hear tons of guys say that. My sex life changed where I stopped thinking about sex as good in the moment and it had to be good for three weeks after, which is the amount of time it takes to go and get a HIV test, right? So if I was really hot night and I was really attracted to somebody, but the next morning I woke up and I was like, oh my

I can't believe I'm going to run into that person or I felt fear of my sexual health. It wasn't a good sexual experience. So I challenge people to do the same thing with porn. If afterwards you have to scrub your history and do a Rosemary, then like maybe just invest in some porn that doesn't make you feel that way. Yeah, that's a good rule. Yeah. Let's talk about solo play and then I'll tease what you would get in part two. But solo play, I have no business saying this, but I think this is where it all needs to start. If you don't know

what gives you pleasure by yourself, you are then going to rely on someone else to show you, which good luck, maybe that person will arrive. But I just think it's a much better strategy to know exactly what you like. There's a male expert, which if you guys ever want a male sex expert, this guy, Alex Grundy, I absolutely adore him, but he coaches men. It's so fascinating because I predominantly speak with women,

I'm very women-facing. And so I get the benefit of having millions of people in my community. And he has like a large community of people, but he has like 18 followers online. Because no man is going to hit the follow button because they're not going to admit. That's an admission that they want instruction. Yes.

Wow. That they need help. That's sad. But he says that one of the first thing he directs his clients to do is to do a masturbation session where they start with the top of their head, they massage their head, they get to their ears, then they touch their shoulders, every single part of their body with their genitals being last. And it has to last between 30 to 40 minutes.

And then he also encourages them to make the most ridiculous sound that you can possibly imagine. Make the lowest sound, say the stupidest thing and just play with delight in experiencing your own body first. And then again, you have the information to provide to somebody else. It's not a surprise to you what your body does when you're with somebody else.

But it's interesting because I had a guest on my podcast who talked about this for women. And when she talked about it, she was like, I start with my head. I massage my head and I go down to my shoulders. And then when Alex was describing it, I'm like, even I got to try to keep a straight face here. And I got to check my own shit, right? Because why is it silly or embarrassing?

Again, you're bumping up against the gay thing. Or it's feminine versus masculine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is so unfair. But as the dude's going like, oh, I'm feeling my shoulders. I'm feeling a man's shoulders. Why would I like that? You know, it's mired in all this. You don't have to because women aren't doing that. It's not like, oh, it's a girl's hand on my head. But again, women aren't being accused of being gay nonstop since they're a kid. Right, right, I know.

What are we doing? I know. All this shit, it's so funny. All we ever deal with on this show is like down river issues, right? Like 30 years in, what's the result of these little tiny things? There's like five fucking things driving 90% of all the shit we deal with later in society. So that's a challenge to everybody listening is to have a solo session where you pleasure map your own body. If that doesn't feel accessible to you, that's totally fine. Ask a partner or go to a massage therapist. Those are...

trained expert to that for a reason and ask for that specificity. Try everything, go slow. And can we talk about it as we explore together? That doesn't even cover all of part one. And then there's part two. And then in part two, you learn about the art of flirting, emotional connection, reigniting physical passion, sexy eye triangle. Will you please do it for me? Yes. Because I've seen it and it's powerful. Yeah, give it to Monica. Oh, I'm sorry. Oh my God, he's laughing.

So I looked right into one of your eyes deeply. Yeah. And I looked down at your bottom of your body. I scanned your body and I dropped my chin. So when I look up again now, I'm in a submissive position. Oh. Yes. Wow. Sexy eye triangle. Really sexy. Creates chemistry. In your own dating life, were men so intimidated when they found out what your area of specialty was? Like we get into like everyone has this enormous fear they're not enough.

And then you meet someone who's like, fuck, this bitch knows everything about this. She'll know all the things I'm doing wrong. You must have a confident husband. Yes, but this is the real truth. So me and my husband started off as fuck buddies. At the time that I met him, I was on the fritz of deportation. I legally couldn't work in America. And I just came out of a long distance tumultuous relationship. But I just...

finished my sexology certification. So I had all this new information and I just came out of this terrible relationship where the sex was bad. And I was like, I need to practice somewhere. He had just moved to a new spot in town. He lived five minutes from me. Proximity is huge. One of the most, number one determinants for if you're going to be compatible with somebody's proximity. And I say it's this day. If we were not walking distance, we would not be here today.

So we're both in that same mindset. So when he found out that I studied sex for a living, he was like, great, I'll have sex with this girl. I'll learn stuff. So I have sex with other people. Okay. I'll be great. So he came in with like a learner's mindset. I'm not here to show her or show her up. I'm genuinely here to learn, to apply that to other places. So I think that culture was huge. Whenever,

Whenever I meet people in general, if I tell a man what I do, he asks for my credentials. If I tell a woman, she asks for my advice. So that just ends up being the separation. That's interesting. Yeah. Because the man is like, what makes you qualified? Oh, yeah. So.

Since we talking. Well, because he went, she thinks I'm terrible at it. Why do you know? Who says you're an expert? What makes you know that I'm terrible? Right. And are you going to reveal that I don't know? There's a fear. Are you here because I don't know what I'm doing? Is that why you're hired? Yeah, exactly. You're going to suss me out in seconds.

Oh, my God. What a gift, though. I think the secret to being great in bed is admitting that you're probably not that great in bed. There is the person who can admit that, who's curious, who has a learner's mindset, a tourist mindset. Oh, my gosh, this country's amazing. Show me around. Right. This is wonderful. Wow. Like, what do you eat? What do you do? That light, that spark, that curiosity makes you good. Yeah, if you go to Rome and you're like, there's the concept. Yeah, I know about that.

I already knew about the coffee. Yeah. I just said, but I'm a conqueror here. I know everything about this place. Don't expose my ignorance. There's directives, you know, because men have the pressure to be dominant. I want to respect that. And a lot of women do like that. They're like, I don't want to make any more decisions. So you can be directive. Like, I'm really great with my hands. Where do you want me to put them? So I'm still inviting your expertise while also showing my dominance in the area. So there's both.

Well, this has been awesome. Also, I really encourage people to listen to Lovers, which is your podcast. Yeah, look at you. This has been a blast and titillating. I hope everyone checks out The Art of Sex Appeal and then listen to Lovers. Amen. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me. Stay tuned to hear Miss Monica correct all the facts that were wrong. It's okay though, we all make mistakes.

Never before haircut. For all their stuff? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay, so what are we doing here with your bangs? Let's just see. Okay. Well, hold on. I'm going to raise this. Okay. I usually have shorter bangs. How high up do you want them? Like, how much off are you looking for? You can do whatever you want. I can do whatever I want. Okay, and then I also see some. You should be careful, Maria. Yeah, go get my clippers, Rob.

Well, first of all, Maria, I think people will know of you. Potentially. Well, first of all, let's go back in time. Okay, let's go back in time. There was a fact check some time ago, if you might have missed it. A few weeks ago. Yes, where Dax cut my hair because I was overgrown. Yes. And he did a pretty good job. Pretty good.

And since then, our friend Maria, who is joining us today, got inspired. Yeah, you saw it, obviously. I saw it, but also, I have heard of your haircuts. You have? Yes. Okay, prior to... Prior to that, uh-huh. Okay. You heard of the reputation. And I have seen your haircuts. That I give myself.

No. Oh, okay. To your daughters. Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. During years, like when I think it was Delta. Yeah, she had like a reverse bob. Yeah, I did like that. That was a fun cut. She's had some great cuts. She either goes high and back, long and front or vice versa. Oh, yeah. Those are her moves.

So I have seen your haircuts. Kristen always told me he's like, he knows how to cut hair. So I remember. Yeah. No. And that was in fact, when I saw your daughters going like, you know, a couple of times, I was like, like, yeah, he knows how to cut hair. You were convinced. And you're in the business. So people should know you are officially in the business. You are. You are a makeup artist.

In film and television. Yes. For how long? In Veronica Mars, 2003. Okay, a long time. Over 20 years ago. 22 years. Mm-hmm, 22 years. And then, you know, we worked together on the Spin the Wheel. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And Maria's done my makeup as well. For? Yeah.

Just fun. Yeah. Just for funsies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's very, very talented. Very. But to be honest, there's a lot of talented people here in Los Angeles. Of course. You're definitely in the mix because of your personality. Yeah.

You're a great makeup artist, but we wouldn't really even care if you were a good makeup artist because your personality is top notch. I don't know if people understand. The person you are spending the most amount of time with, more than the other actors on a set, is your hair and makeup. Yeah. And more your makeup. If you're a dude, they're not fixing your hair nearly as much as they're fixing your makeup. And they're in your face all the time. They're in your face. Yep.

Yeah. So they have to have a good personality. And your day starts by sitting in their chair very, very early. And you're going to you guys are going to be face to face for the next 40 minutes. Yes. And I think it's a lot about energy. And it's like I can read people's energy right away. You know whether they want to chat or nothing. Yeah. And even when I talk to my husband, because he has completely the opposite side what I do, like I.

He goes to hospital. He is very like, you know, in suits and stuff. That, for me, is scary. These people have dark...

See, Chris? That scary energy. They have diseases. They have AIDS. Some of them. If you watch ER, you know that a lot of people... If it were the 80s or 90s. But over the years, yes, so maybe, I guess, 22 years ago, you started working with Kristen. Yeah. Everything for me started with my uncle. My uncle was a makeup artist for the TV industry. Okay. And I was little. I was like, when I see Delta, when I see your daughters on set, it kind of...

to remind myself like because I was like oh I see all these celebrities oh my god I want to be I want to meet them I want you know I want to work with them so everything started there because my uncle had a salon back in Venezuela where I'm from yeah we are uniquely attracted to Venezuelans we have a few special Venezuelans in our life yeah I kind of need to go because everyone I meet I'm like yeah I don't think we can go and I don't think right now they can come

Okay. All right. Thank you, President. What do you call the President? Because this is one of the things I want to get to. What do you refer to the President as? Are you even scared to talk about it? No, I'm not scared. Yeah, the orange President. Yeah. That's how I call him. I love that. She calls him the orange President. Are you there? Is there? It's pretty self-explanatory. Okay.

I love Florida. Yeah. My family lived there. Every time that I go to Florida, I see all these orange people. Sure. That's right. And like, I go, why everybody looks here so orange? Yeah, what is happening? What are they drinking? It's the Florida sun. Florida sun. It's like, and then when I go there, you know I'm Latin, but they go, you need to go to the beach.

They think you're too white. Yeah. Or like you have like, you need color. You need color. You look unhealthy. Yeah. And I'm like, no, I am very healthy. Like I look normal. You are the ones that are orange. Also, that's where they make a lot of oranges. That's where most of the citrus is coming from other than California, perhaps. That's what we do as a society. We mimic the fruit that is native to our region. But over the years, you have so many cute Maria-isms.

The original one I ever heard, like before I ever met you even, Kristen said, oh, my God, my makeup artist is so fucking cute on Veronica Mars. And of course, Kristen can mimic anybody. Yes. Right. Yes. Because also when you weren't around, Simone's around and she has a German accent. So Kristen, she can do Simone perfectly. She can do you. And she said, yes, she was telling me about the sandwich. And she said that it had a roof beef flavor.

Rough beef. Yeah, I remember that. A lot of people know me because of that story. Because of rough beef. And a couple of other ones too. Yeah. I try, but like sometimes my accent, it kind of, it doesn't kind of roll. Yeah, that's normal. But do we have the same memory that I think on Spin the Wheel, I actually figured out what was going on. I think everyone assumed you were mispronouncing roast. Yes, yes.

Is it that or were you actually like, it's rough beef? Were you intending to say rough? Yeah. And you felt like, yes, you were. Yeah. And actually, every time that I say that word, I remember that going, like coming from school little and enter my mom kitchen. And she, I'd be like, no. Oh, you just, you didn't like it. Yeah. And yeah. And actually, Krista was the only one.

Who was like, Maria? Okay. It's not roast. It's roast. It's roast. Yeah. It's not rough. And I was like, it's rough beef. It will always be rough beef. Yeah. It's better. I like what you're saying. Okay. And then the newest one, and this one made its way to Kimmel.

Which was you, Kristen came to work. She told you the story, how I had said to Lincoln. Oh, my God, yes. She's having a very rough morning. I said, look in the mirror. I'm a bad bitch, and I'm going to fuck this day up. And you really liked it. Yeah. That actually stayed with me because, you know, being in the business for the TV industry, some days, like, they're amazing days, but sometimes even, like, actors or anything, like—

You want them to kind of like get out of that what happened. The funk. Yeah. Or like give them a signal like you're better. Yeah. Just don't like you don't have to drag that all day. Like that is stay with me. Right. Like when she told me and I was like, oh. She was having a uniquely terrible day on set. Yeah. And you're like, oh, my God, I know what to do. Yeah.

And you looked at her and you said, what? I don't remember anymore, Dax. Christine? Yeah. Remember, you're a bitch and you're going to fuck everything up. And then, no, and then when I, I was like, and then I was like, oh my God, I say it wrong. But then I look at her.

And then. That was the magic thing. I mean, you're so happy you're right. That's what she needed to hear. Yeah. And then she looked at me and then she started laughing. And I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe I just say that. I didn't really. Like, I was like, my brain didn't really in my mouth say something else. So I was like, but I know Kristen. Like, you know, I know her for so long. Then I was like, she'll be fine. She'll be fine.

She knows what I meant. No, you made her day. Yeah, it was more than fine. It was a blessing that you said you're a bitch and you're going to fuck everything up. Yes. And that's why I did the mirror in her makeup bag. Because if something happened, like I would say, like exactly before camera roll happened,

And you see something like a message, like a secret message that you only be able to see it. Nobody else in the room. Yes. You know, it will help you. So you can just show her the mirror. Yeah. Someone send you a secret there. And you only will know. Yeah. And it will get you better. That make my day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's get cutting. Let's get cutting. Yes, you're going to have to lean forward a bit. This will be...

which is now gonna be the pattern in this barbershop. I'm never doing what I would normally do, which is stand. Right, that's right. Right, so we're gonna do the best we can with this. And I'm gonna also talk to-- You're the seated butcher. Yeah, I'm gonna talk to Monica. First, I need to see what's happening here. Okay. Dax, how nervous are you right now?

I'm not too nervous, but I will say that this, what I have to do is see the shape that exists already and be very consistent with the shape, which I think I'm gonna be able to do. I'm gonna commit to a certain amount off

And I'm going to follow the line that exists. But Maria's so pretty and like you might ruin her whole face. No, that's the comfort. I couldn't ruin her face. Wait, I have to see this. I have to say this. Yeah. You know, in Covey, I let my husband cut my hair. In Covey? It was not straight. I had a bob kind of. And the bob was like high.

And then it was an angle like this. Okay, yeah. And I need to say this. I took a picture of that because I had to take a picture for something for my profile. And the bob was like this, right? And I was like, I would hate this. And then I saw it. And that's the picture that I use for everything. You love it. Yeah, no. And people tell me, where'd you get that haircut? Oh.

Oh, they love it. And I was like, okay. Sometimes life gives you happy accidents. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, first cut is about to happen. Yes, yes, yes. We're going to get this chunk right here and we're going to get on it. And I'm not going to cut myself this time. And Monica is going to tell us a story while this happens.

Oh, I was not prepared for that. Monica always has a story. I do normally have a story. Let's see what's been going on with me. Maria, have you watched the show You on Netflix? I did. You did? I think the first season. Okay. Yeah, I like it. Too freaky for you?

It is. It's actually really good. Actually, Maria, I'm glad you're here because this— She's the first person who said that she's seen you, right? Yeah.

You've asked now 20 or 30 people. I've asked a lot of people. And I think you're the first, Maria. And you knew. I didn't even have to clarify a show on Netflix. Yeah. You knew exactly what I was talking about. Yeah. No, but I'm glad you're here because this is what I've been thinking about for the last 24 hours. Okay. Tell me. Yesterday, and we're not going to give anything away, but yesterday we had a crazy day. We had two interviews. Yes.

And the first was an expert and the second was a celebrity. An actor. An actor. A sexy celebrity. A sexy celebrity actor that was a very big get for us. Both were great. Okay. The first one is with the expert is so fascinating. Dax and I were really anxious about the celebrity. Yeah.

More so than normal. I don't want to say we get through the first interview, but...

Because we were very engaged and it was super interesting. But I'm going to be honest. I do think we were 10% distracted. Okay. Sure. You know, it's just the truth. It's playing in the background of yours. Yes. You're like, oh, okay, how many hours? Yeah. But do you want to, like, you're not sure if you want to pick for, like, the very interesting or a celebrity? So, okay, this is my, who should we be?

Technically, who should we be more distracted for in this life? Well, and that's a really – there's something funny – yeah, there's something funny about that question because in reality, the expert required a lot more knowledge on my behalf. I had to like really deep dive into a complex subject.

And yet that doesn't—that should be probably more nerve-wracking. And, of course, it's not. Well, and then that's my whole—that's what I've thought about after we finished the day yesterday a lot. Like, I was so—we were so relieved after the day was over. We were happy and, you know, we were talking about it. And then it just sort of—it—

I started to feel really sad. Oh, wow. Explain that. I want to know about that. I just started thinking about our first guest. We did not treat anyone poorly yesterday. I was just like, man, we should think. You're being a very, like if you're at a salon and they were treating you this way, you'd be like, hey, can't you do this without combing directly in front of my eyes? Jesus Christ.

I will go with, I mean, I don't know. I will be more interested in the expert than, I mean. So, yeah, that's what, yeah. So, I was like, it is, there's such an imbalance in this world. Oh, this is nice. So, I don't know. Oh, you're saying we're valuing, you felt guilty like we're valuing the wrong things? Yes. Or, and not, I just wish it was equal. And I'm not saying like I wish like other people should. I myself feel.

was doing it. There's something that felt sort of unfair and unjust and it all started to make me sad. And the man we had at first

Well, he's Pakistani, but he looked kind of like my father. I think that's a lot of what's going on for you with the way you're having these second thoughts and guilt feelings. I think it's like you're imagining your dad came in here. But that's what we do. That's how we're able to see it, right, in life. Like you get a glimpse into something that you're connected to and that is how you see. And I...

Yeah, I did. I was like, if my dad was somewhere talking to someone about this incredible—this person's brilliant. Yeah. And has incredible knowledge. And, you know, the people there are kind of half distracted a little bit because they have this, like, beautiful— White gas coming on? It's not just about—it's not white. I just think we as a society, we definitely treat—

We treat people differently and we think about people differently. Well, we're status animals. That's true. But it makes me like, I don't want that. And I think it hurts everyone. Yeah, this turned out good. I always feel like this actually. Okay, do that. Do the whole thing you do. And now look at Monica and she'll either gasp like, oh, you fucked it up. It looks really nice. Great cut. Yeah. That's great. Okay, we like that. I'm going to double check I have no straights because a lot of times you think you got them all.

- I laugh because when people cut hair or people do your makeup and you see their face. - Yes, we all have like our concentration face. Mine's usually tongue out. Okay, we're sticking with that. That's it. We did it. - It's really nice. It looks great. - I don't know if you know the rule. I only cut people's hair once. It's this weird thing I have. It's not even weird. We understand it exactly.

I want to prove to you I can cut hair, but I don't really want to cut hair a lot. Well, that's good. Yeah. Okay, so you want her conclusion on... You're on a set with, that it's very, there's a big hierarchy on sets. People are overvalued and people are undervalued. And I wonder how you feel about all of that. And maybe I can offer an actual concrete detail, because this one I have felt bad about in the past.

Yet I'm going to still do it. I'll bring my kids to work. And everyone's like, oh, fun. The kids are here. And I'm like, this is really unfair. The rest of the folks that work here can't bring their kids to work. You're not going to show up with your kids. Maybe you could like one day it would be a thing. I mean, if it's an emergency. Yeah. But I know where you mean. You're not bringing your kids for fun. You're not like so they can see set. Yeah. Yeah. Although you got to go with your uncle. So I guess it does happen. Yeah. But that's one where I'll go like.

Yeah, this is a little bit unethical. Like, I shouldn't really do this because not everyone else can do it. And then I go, and by the way, this is back to parenthood. That's only, and maybe I brought the kids once or twice to bless this mess. But I was also like, yeah, it's not fair. And also, if I can bring my kids to work, I'm going to do that. You know, like what I would want is for anyone to be able to bring their kids to work, ultimately. Unless it was really...

I mean, it gets in the way, though. Like, let's be honest. And actors bring their dogs and shit. Really, really no one should bring their kids to work on a set or dogs. Like, they bark and they make noise and they are a distraction. And it is unfair. Yeah. And some people get a pass and other people don't. Yeah. And I do get kind of wrapped up in the unfairness of it. And it will...

It's more like, I think it hurt. Honestly, I think it hurts everyone. We are all people. Yeah. And everyone on a set is a person. It's a person. There's no better. There really is no better or worse. But that's not the way we...

tend to as animals behave. Okay, this is so dangerous. But yes, nobody is better than anyone on a set. No one has more value as a human being. Yeah. But there is also a reality where that is not true. So Maria could have a shit day and do kind of okay at her job.

And the actor can't. The whole reason everyone's there is so that this thing is a product that goes to the television set. And other people can kind of fuck up their job and not get it right. What has to happen is that. And then you go even further. Why is that person there? Well, they bet on that person because they've already succeeded on TV a bunch of other times.

Now, whether or not your makeup and hair department's great isn't going to predict at all whether people watch the show. That's just a market reality of these different jobs. So they intrinsically do have different values for the goal at hand. Not—they don't have different values as humans on planet Earth. That's what I'm talking about. It shouldn't be that you're over-the-top nice to one person because they're an actor and you could care less how you treat—

The PA. I agree. People, everyone should be treated. I understand. Yeah. Even though what do you do or how you look or how whatever like it is. Yeah. Even if you're technically replaceable as your job. Yes. And for me, that is 100 percent true. And when you are at craft service and you're talking with the B camera operator, you should be having an equal to equal conversation because you're both humans, right?

Now, if we're under the gun and we have to get the shot or it's gonna kick to the next day and it's gonna cost $200,000,

and the lead actor is having an issue, that is the most important. Like, it's just... Yeah, that is handling the most important problem. It's different than how you treat people. But also how we might have to tiptoe around the actor who's got the crazy scene where she's just been raped and she's going to go to the police department and have her seen. She also is entitled to way more delicate...

kid glove treatment because we recognize what has to happen and we recognize that that's harder than other jobs where you don't have to be in an emotional state to operate the dolly. Like I do think it ignores a certain reality to just say everyone needs to be treated the same on a set because we're all of the same value. I think it's both things.

If someone on the ship has to get sick and we're in the middle of a voyage to another country, in order, we'd have everyone get sick and the captain would be the last person we would have get sick. Because all of our livelihood or all of our life is dependent on that person more than anyone else there. And the livelihood is more dependent on a few people that are there than on others. And so I think it would also be important.

irrational to think there's not going to be different treatment given those circumstances. I understand both of the points. Yeah. I mean, everybody has to be treated equally.

But at the same time, I—because I don't know, like, in that TV and film industry, the reason that we're doing the show is because number one. Yeah. Or number two or three, you know what I mean? On the call sheet, you're saying? Yeah. Right. So they order the actors and really their importance to the project. Yeah. And then that's when you're like, okay—

Starting from there, like this is it, you know, number one, number two and number three. I always feel like, oh, my God, like they're acting, but their body is going through that, too. Yes, definitely. They're not pretending. You think you see it on camera. Yes, for you it's pretending, but it's not because their stages or what they're going through in their body is also that is happening. Yeah.

You know, in a way, I'm not saying acting isn't hard. We could also take it out of film and television and put it in sports. It's like, let's say there are two team trainers on the Chicago Bulls that can give massages. And unfortunately, it'd be insane to not make sure Michael Jordan has a dedicated one of those people. Now, is it fair that not everyone gets a massage or doesn't have a trainer spending attention on them? Maybe it's not fair, but it would be a really terrible plan to not prioritize people.

Michael Jordan and Scottie Pittman for those limited resources. And I think that's a little bit how a film set operates as well. It's like, there aren't infinite resources and infinite breaks and infinite all this stuff. There is finite of everything. There's a budget. And so you just, you start prioritizing in order of how important they are to the project. And so you can be not more important as a person, but you can definitely be more important to a project.

Exactly. So there's no finite amount of kindness towards people. Right. It's not like I only have this much. So I guess I got to give it to the most important person on the project. But we're going to get parking spots out differently. We're going to get. But we're getting kind of far away from what like I was talking about, because what happens here is not that. Everyone gets the same interview. Everyone gets an interview for the same amount of time. Both of these people are exceptional. Yeah.

There is no getting around that. Both are. And yet there's something that happens in the human body for a certain echelon of celebrity that just happens. It happens to all of us. I'm not, again, I'm not like pointing fingers. I am part of this problem, but I was just very aware of it after the fact. Yeah. But you tend to be a little harder on yourself than I do. Like when you...

like something or you, like you feel bad that you value one of those two people more than the other. Like you feel bad about it. I feel bad that I had a reaction towards one person that I wouldn't have towards another. But there's a very, very stark reality to the two guests. One has the potential of getting 10 million views and one has the potential of getting a million views. Even if the first guest, if we do it perfectly, it'll get about a million views.

Now, the variability in the second guess, if we don't do a good job, it's going to be okay. If we do a great job, that's kind of a – that's a big game changer. So it does have a different value intrinsically. It has a different value, and I think that's something – that's like an easy thing to tell ourselves. Like it's because the stakes are higher job-wise for that, but that's –

True. That is true. And that's not what is happening. That's always happening for me before this person enters. Of course I do. I am like, oh my God, I really hope this goes well. But there's something visceral that happens when you know that person's going to walk in the room.

Well, there's that. That is different than what happens before guest number one walks in the room. You know, celebrities are persons. And for me, celebrities is not celebrities because we all do what we love. So for me, you're a person. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? That's sort of my point. You know, and like...

I like everything for me is like, oh, I like this person. Like if you guys go for the more interested one, I'll be like, oh yeah. You know what I mean? You will like the first guest. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like. You would like that. You generally like experts more. Yes. And we, we, we generally like experts more because all we're, we're going to hopefully do with a celebrity is learn their life story because we're all very interested in what their life story is. Yeah.

And hopefully we'll hear some things about their life that we haven't heard previously. Because who wants to hear it all over again? And some things about the way they think of the world based on their unique experience in this life. Yeah. And then the next part, we're literally going to learn a new concept. Yes.

And we might then at a dinner party talk about this new thing. I mean, we have this revenge addiction guy on and I just can't stop thinking about it. Everything I do, everywhere I'm at, I'm talking about it. It's like, yeah, this guy introduced an entirely new way to think about things for me. Yeah, the experts have changed my life. Exactly. The celebrities are wonderful, but they haven't. What is on the table with the celebrity, which I do value almost nearly as much,

is we do on occasion get an emotional exchange that is so profound and to be doing it with a relative stranger is insanely rewarding. And I will think about that as much as I think about a new concept. So there's like two different offerings on the table. And I hope when we have an expert on that, I can be the layman and convey this as much as I can. And we all walk away with a new concept. And then when it's a celebrity, I hope we have an emotional exchange that...

That is like very genuine and memorable and you can feel. Yeah. I just think it's my – I think it's my journey in this life to really – because I started out feeling so inferior. Okay. That it is really my journey to understand that everyone really is equal. Yeah.

And I think I'm like there, so I might die soon. They might unflug me because I think I'm getting really close. But Monty, don't you think... What? Don't you think a bit, though, that you felt underappreciated and low status? And so you, as we all project our own baggage...

you're very fearful that someone else is feeling that way. Well, I see it all the time. You're kind of on high alert. I mean, I see it though. It's not, we can't act like people don't revere. Have different status. Yeah, and revere celebrity over scientist. I don't, that's not my pushback at all. It's whether or not they feel bad. Oh, the person. The person. Because yes, status is a real thing. It's almost measurable. We have lots of markers for status. Yeah. That's real. But whether or not the person's,

feeling like you're treating them low status, that's completely up to each person. Wait, I have a question for you guys. Yes. Because that's like, everybody in this universe have status. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Finance status. Financial intelligence. Yeah. Academic achievement. Yeah. Your social network. Are you associated with lots of high status people who are financially and economically and all these things? There's there's physical status. You can be very attractive. There's strength status.

There's like any number of ways we could measure two people. We can measure their income. Well, which one's higher? We could measure their strength. Which one's higher? So, but which one will you erase from your world? Well, I'll tell you the one that I'm not impressed by. I'm not, I don't care if someone's rich. Yeah, me either. I'm like, but I see it a lot. You're around people and just they're the richest in their group and they have all this sway and people are kind of enamored by them, want to be close to them. And I'm just like,

Yeah, there's got to be some way more going on than that. Maybe the way they got rich would be interesting and I would I would, you know, be enamored by them. But but yeah, if you just rich, who gives a fuck? Because you could just be a trust fund kid. Like what is impressive about that?

But with the richness comes the cool car and the cool house and the cool vacations. Vacations. Yeah. Yeah. I think financial status is the worst one. But I'm impressed by all the other stuff. Like if you're crazy talented, I am. If you're very attractive, I like that. If you're super smart, I love that. Like I do covet a lot of these status markers or I'm affected by a lot of these status markers. I'll say this. When we're with Bill Gates—

He's arguably, you know, in the top 10 in the world of status. And him being rich is like the least interesting part. And it's the one we think about the least. I mean, I think about it the least when I'm with him. I'm just constantly. But when we were first talking to him, we thought about it. We did. You're right. And then now, obviously, we don't. But like, remember, we were like.

Because he says $130 billion. Like, how does that—how does a person have that? You know, you can't help it. These are ways of being—this is how—these are how humans are. But I am trying—I think it's good for me anyway. I don't—it's not a—I'm not telling other people what to do. I want to move away from it, not toward it. Yeah, I think that's the fundamental way you and I differ. Yeah. You think we—

It should and can transcend status as a species. And I don't think social animals can ever transcend status. I think you have to accept it. You have to learn how it's affecting you. You have to learn how to deal with it the way we have to learn how to deal with many of the vestigial things we're stuck with. We want to eat more food than we need.

It's never going to change. That's how humans are. So we got to figure out a game plan around that. But I don't think you will ever live in a world with social animals where there's not status. I don't think that's a goal we could even achieve or should even waste time aiming at. It's more like, how's this...

Thing we're stuck with affecting your emotional state and how can you help limit the amount of fallout from that? I've changed a lot in the way I view status. How you evaluate people's status. Yeah. Like when I first moved here, I was definitely – and definitely before I moved here, like –

You know, people who were famous and celebrities, that was so, they were so cool. And I was definitely overly impressed. Yeah. And I really, again, maybe that's why also this is coming up because I haven't felt this feeling in a long time. I haven't felt this feeling that we had yesterday where I was like nervous because I don't care anymore. We have all these famous people on and I don't think, oh, they're,

Or, oh, they're cooler than me. Or, oh, they're better than me at all. So that's a huge shift. You know what's great, though? Can I just tell you something nice? You were so fucking confident yesterday that you didn't let that get you.

the best of you in any way. You were almost cocky in the way that I love when you're cocky. You always translate very well, Monica. Thank you. It did fall away quickly. Yeah. But you were yourself. You were like, when I say to you, like, you've said different people you dated, you started to evaluate more like, who am I when I'm with them? Yes. And...

Yeah, you... Yeah, not who are they, who am I. Who are you? And then certain people brought out certain sides of you. And I just left yesterday thinking like, oh yeah, that's the best, most confident side of Monica. Yeah. Yeah. I...

I think part of it's because of that. I was enormously proud of you even though. Yeah. Well, I called you and told you how much I appreciated. That's really nice. Yeah. I mean, I do think part of it's based off that stubbornness. Like, I'm not going to let this person with all this status that everyone's like, you know, everyone's texting after how was this interview? How was this interview? Nope. You're not going to let me feel that way. When I started...

And I was, you know, on the show and TV series and stuff. They used to tell me, this person's going to, you know, you're going to do their makeup. This person's going to, but, you know, I'm from South America, Venezuela. So for me, I don't know these people. Yeah. A superpower. Yeah. And I remember...

One time I started like going, oh, I'm going to do it. And then I started going read about them, show them. And that I couldn't handle. Yes. Too intimidating. It was too much for me. I learned through the years being in the industry that I don't Google anyone. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's smart. Yeah, that's a good policy. I remember this story and this actress, I don't know, I have never seen her after that. She she was like her look was very serious and

But she was the sweetest thing. But nobody...

They were afraid to talk to her. Yeah. And she's like, Maria, how, like, you are so friendly with her. Nobody really talked to her. Right. They were intimidated. Yeah. Like, even, like, the crew. And I'm like, well, I have to do her makeup. I love her. Yeah. And we click. And you know what I mean? But that's the thing. It's like, sometimes you're outside. It doesn't really match what is inside. Maria, this was so fun having you a part of the banter. Yes. Thank you for joining.

and getting your hair because it looks beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Dax. Thank you, Monica. I stand by that. You were the inspiration. That day, I was like, when I saw Christian and said, I'm like, you need to tell Dax that he needs to trim my bangs. I need. And she was like, okay. Well, you did a great job. Well, thank you, guys. I appreciate it. I know it's only going to be once. It's okay. I might do you a second time because I like you so much. Wow. Lucky Dax.

Any actors out there who have a choice, if they get to pick who their makeup artist is, I could not recommend Maria Moore. I had so much fun. You, Amy, and I had so much fun on that insane game show with a five-story wheel. By the way, I have to say this. You, like...

you in that suit look very sexy. - Oh! - There you go. - Thank you. - And I actually sent that to KB because she didn't have the picture. And I remember I was like, "You need to see your husband in this picture." And she was like, "Okay." And I'm like, "Send it to you."

Because I remember it was like a suit and like, I don't know, like so much money in the bag. Sure, sure. Yeah. That helps. And I remember it. So she has it. And, you know, things like that, you need to say. Yeah. I appreciate it. I love you. Thanks for coming. So good to have you. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

Shan. Shan. So there aren't very many facts for Shan. Shan brought the facts. She really did. She brought the facts. Weirdly, Sam Rockwell comes up, which is wild because he was our guest earlier this week. What was said about Sam Rockwell? Oh, the speech in White Lotus. The speech in White Lotus. Yes. Came up. And if you missed that episode, it was earlier this week. And we do talk about that speech a fair amount. Yeah.

Where are the pleasure centers in the brain? Okay. The nucleus acubens is often referred to as the pleasure center of the brain. It's a subcortical brain structure involved in positive effect and feelings of reward. When we engage in pleasurable activities, the nucleus acubens becomes activated, leading to the release of dopamine, which reinforces the behavior.

It's located in the ventral stratum, a part of the basal ganglia. Basal ganglia. Also the orbitofrontal cortex, particularly in a mid-anterior subregion.

According to some neuroimaging studies, it's also a site for pleasure. I wish you would have got into a little bit how men are more visual by nature than women. That's curious to me. You wish she had? Yeah. I'd like some kind of explanation for that. Did Stifler get a prostate orgasm in American Pie? No. Road trip. Oh, road trip.

There is, I guess, a scene where he's milking the prostate. I remember it well. A nurse is in his ass. Yeah. Good for him. Sounds great. And that's it. That was it. She brought a lot. Stifler was in road trip when he got milked. I mean, some of the facts I didn't feel comfortable checking. Oh. I'm just kidding. But, you know, some of those Googles...

I don't need to do. You were afraid some images would come up? Yeah. Yeah. But I trust her anyway. She's a master class. I mean, you got to trust the master class. Got to. All right. All right. Love you. Love you.

Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.