A Few Shoes [LIVE]
01:04:30 Share

For tonight's event, I'd like to hand the stage over to the host of Articles of Interest. Please join me in giving it up for Avery Truffleman! This episode was recorded on October 20th, 2023 at the Hot Docs Festival in Toronto. Hey! Thanks everyone! So yeah, this is a live show. I'm not messing around, this is a live-ass show.

It's coming out on Wednesday. It's going to be great. But one of the things... So, yeah, one of the great pleasures of making articles of interest is I love making a show about...

how clothes and garments are made, the systems that make them, the supply chain that makes them, and also talking to historians and experts who have all sorts of brilliant ideas about the garment in question. And I thought, wouldn't it be fitting for the first ever live taping, instead of talking to two different people separately and splicing them together like I normally do, having them both at the same time, having one of the foremost, maybe, yes, the foremost

shoe historian in the world and one of the foremost shoe designers in the world to talk together about shoes that I haven't covered yet. So, that said, I'm going to introduce them one by one and you should feel free to give it up. First of all, for Aurora James, the founder of the 15% Pledge and Brother Vellies. Come on up. Come on up.

Welcome, welcome. Thanks so much for having me. Oh my God, thank you for coming. Prodigal son returns. Thank you for coming back to Toronto. I know, I'm so happy to be here. And now I know that you drink whiskey before you do this. Oh, yeah. I'd like to say that I do this every show. We're all drinking whiskey. It's so chill. It's so no big deal. And may I also bring to the stage Elizabeth Semelheck of the Bada Shoe Museum, which I have to say, totally unironically...

Elizabeth knows this. For many years, I was like, before I die, I have to go to the Patashu Museum. It's like right down the street, y'all. It is so amazing. So let's start with you, Aurora. So in your autobiography, Wildflower, you write a lot about your childhood here in Toronto. And a lot of it is about what your mom taught you about clothes and

How did she change the way you see garments and what we wear? So my mom was actually adopted at birth. And this was in 1952, needless to say, like pre-23 and me. So she really had no way of tracking where she came from and what her background was. And she really taught me about fashion almost from an anthropological perspective.

because she would say like this is how we can kind of uncover women's history and so often she would also tell me this Nigerian proverb until the lion has a historian the hunter will always be the hero and she would say you have to seek out women's stories in unexpected places and fashion is one of the places that those stories are so often kept and so she would take me to the Bata Shoe Museum all the time she would that was

We went there all the time. And she would often focus in on a specific pair of shoes, like moccasins or mucklucks or Danish clogs. And she would talk about, oh, well, this is utilizing wood because it's from this region that has this tree, et cetera, et cetera. So it was really fascinating. And I mean, anyone who's listening to this show doesn't need the justification of like, why do clothes matter? But it's kind of, why do you think shoes have a bit of a bad rap? I feel like it's like, oh, you know.

Women talking about shoes. It gets written off as this frivolous thing. Why do you think shoes are particularly important for storytelling? I think that fashion gets written off as a frivolous thing because it's one of the ways that women hold power. And I think also when we talk about black women specifically, like one of the ways that we were actually able to start acquiring generational wealth was through furs.

And so there's a lot of belief in the black community that that's one of the reasons why furs have been like poo-pooed because black women, Sunday church, that was one of their things and it kind of fell out of fashion for a lot of different reasons. But I don't know, I really do believe that fashion is extremely powerful and it's also a huge industry that brings a ton of money into many places. I mean, Elizabeth, can I ask you,

What place do shoes hold? Are they a particular realm of fashion storytelling?

I think that what's interesting about shoes, is this on? Yeah. But first, I also wanted to add the point about the question about fashion. You know, I say this a lot when I lecture. Canada was founded on fashion. Like, Europeans got on boats and they came over here looking for beaver fur, beaver pelt, to do what? Not to save the world, not to eat beaver steaks, but to make men's hats. Yeah. And we kind of don't, from an academic standpoint, often come

complete the circle where we have discussions of output and but we never think about the role of consumption. And I think the magic of fashion is also what pushes consumerism and keeps that economic engine going, right? But to your question about shoes and narrative, I think that and you know, you and I experienced this when you came in, we were in storage.

I got to see the storage in the Vodichu Museum. It was so cool. You got to come. Oh my gosh, please. We'll talk. We'll make a date. I'm shocked. I saw Ava Gardner's loafers. They were amazing. We have close to 15,000 artifacts.

So it's really quite a few shoes. But also what you experience, and it's something I too experienced when I started working at the museum, is that if you're looking at a historic dress and it's not on a hanger and on a body, it's just a pile of cloth on the floor. But a pair of shoes

maintains the footprint of the wearer. And you almost can't help but imagine who that person was who wore that pair of shoes. It's a kind of extremely-- it can be a very sort of emotional response to these shoes. And so you think about the stories of their lives and also all of the shoes that get saved, baby shoes, wedding shoes, et cetera. And these get saved around the world. Many cultures do this. So I think shoes are really--

have a certain power in them because they retain a presence of the body. And I feel like this goes back to the proverb that you mentioned, Aurora, this idea that

A history of shoes is actually a very complete history. It's a history written by everyone. There are shoes from children, shoes from women, shoes from all over the world. It's not a linear written history with one perspective, which is pretty extraordinary. And it's also not just one wearer. You have to think about the maker. Where did the material come from? The dyes? Who sold it? Who marketed it? I mean, there's so many hands that touch every single shoe. And so my work will never be done.

What an excellent transition you provided for me. So let's start by talking about these shoes. For our radio audience, Elizabeth, can you describe what these shoes look like? What are these shoes? This is a beautiful pair of Inuit camp mix.

They were made in 1987. The Battesheep Museum, actually it wasn't a museum yet, the Battesheep Foundation had a competition in 1987 that asked women, or actually anybody who was working in traditional materials to make footwear, the best footwear that they could and submit it to the museum, to this competition. And so this pair is a pair of women's and I can tell that because the seal fur goes sideways.

One of the ways that gender is expressed is that the nap of the fur goes side to side for women's boots. Also, you'll notice that... And for men, it's vertical. And for men, it's... Yeah, it's vertical. Huh. And so the next pair is men's. But wait, wait. You got to look at the little...

And so the ulu, which is the knife symbol, that's a symbol. Ulus are used by Inuit women across the Arctic. It's a prize tool for doing many, many different things, including footwear production. And so Mary, the maker, decided to use that as the symbol of the kameks that she made.

That is so cool. I'm like, how do you judge a competition? Like, how do you know that this is the best? Okay, well, actually, go to the next slide. Okay, okay. Are you like, oh, these are bad ones? No, no, no, no. Those are not bad ones, no.

I'm just so curious about what the criteria was. Well, in 1987, I was not there, so I can't tell you. I mean, as someone who gets judged by shoe criteria, I'm always like... I think it was the materials that were used. Did they use traditional materials throughout the entire construction, like sewing it with sinew, things like that? This pair is by Leah...

Odic look and she made an incredible pair of men's boots that feature these standing polar bears. You can see that the... Right? Yeah, you can see the way that the design is done isn't through dye. It's through two different colored skins that are sewn together. And then in order to make it look seamless,

She married the nap of each fur so that it just lays perfectly. Get out. So you can see why maybe these would have won some prizes. Yeah. Okay. So I bring these up not just because they're cool and they tell a cool story, but Aurora, early on your mom took you to watch some of these chemics slash mucklucks getting made. What do you remember about witnessing this process?

just how meticulous these women were, right? And to your point, there's so much thought that goes into it. And I think that we as consumers don't often spend that much time thinking about process and craft. And to me, I remember watching these women like beating, running their hands across the leather,

feeling the materials and really like doing something and then kind of looking back a little bit at it and saying like, okay, or maybe making a tweak, right? Like a painter. And I remember my mom talking to me and saying like, this is art.

Right? And there's a big distinction here between what this woman's doing and oftentimes what we're seeing in the mall. And then I remember her immediately drawing a parallel the next time we saw something that was like Chanel or Louis Vuitton and saying like, oh, I wonder how that was made. How old were you when you witnessed this? Really young. Probably maybe 13. So this is like...

I mean, it's in your biography. This is like a formative thing for you. What was your takeaway from that? Well, I went through a very brief period of time before I started failing school where I wanted to be a lawyer just to fight counterfeit handbags. Because I was like, they're stealing other people's art. This is wrong. And I was like, fashion is art. Don't be confused. And everyone was like, okay. Yeah.

Because I was wearing like JLo velour tracksuits at the time. But you didn't yet have the twinkle in your eye that you wanted to be a shoe designer. No, never. Because I also was seeing, you know, I saw some of these women at work, right? And then also growing up in Canada, we had fashion television on five days a week. And then we had fashion file on. Right.

So we're seeing this art. I mean, there's no other country in the world that played that much fashion content during prime time. Seriously. And people don't think of Canadians as being like fashion people, but it's like we might not be wearing all the fashions, but we're knowing all the fashions. We're revering the fashions. People relate.

what was that show? I'm like, no, they would play a whole fashion show for seven minutes straight. Amazing. You know, that was the first time I ever saw boobs. Really, that weren't like boobs in my household. It was really, like, a thing. I'm just saying, you guys know it's true. You all have the same experience.

So was the idea like, oh, I can't get into fashion because that's like a real big deal. You know, you need to study. Like, did you just think that you weren't qualified to be? Why didn't you want to be a fashion designer? Yeah, I didn't think I was qualified. And also, by the way, I didn't ever see anyone that looked like me. So I think that was a big part of it, too. There weren't any black women fashion designers that I was seeing on those shows. Right. Yeah.

So I think that was a part of it, but I think that more so existed in my subconscious. I just was like, Alexander McQueen is amazing. I mean, how could you ever be like, oh, I'm going to do that? Wild. But of course, it wasn't so wild. Aurora would go on to become a designer, not on the traditional path. How a search for family roots led to a shoe company after the break.

We're living through a pretty rocky present. Maybe the past can help. Check out Radiotopia's This Day, hosted by Jodi Avergan, with historians Nicole Hemmer and Kelly Carter Jackson. Three times a week, they take you into one story from that day in U.S. history, from Eisenhower's weird vendetta against squirrels, to the time we accidentally dropped a nuclear bomb on North Carolina, to the women who fought against the right to vote. ♪

It's smart, surprising, and actually fun. This is a big moment for history. Next year is America's 250th birthday, and, well, look around. There's lots of history being made. Subscribe to This Day for your historical perspective wherever you get your podcasts, as well as YouTube and Instagram.

Articles of Interest is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.

Okay, well as you write in your book, it was kind of a fascinating winding global path that brought you to the place where you started designing shoes and It seems like one of your early inspirations was this one Elizabeth can I ask you to do the thing? What these shoes are to our radio audience? Sure. These are Moroccan baboosh. I

And you'll notice that they're a brilliant yellow color. They look like a mule. But what makes a baboosh different from just a slipper or mule is that the back quarters are pushed down as though you have stepped on the back. They look like slides. Yeah, they look like slides. And that's one of the defining features of baboosh. And so you are seeing that here. And what year are these from? Oh, I should know that. Sorry. No, no, no. I'm so good at memorizing.

Memorizing things. So these are not that old. They are from the 80s. Okay. Yeah. And then we have another example. Oh, yeah. These are much older. Oh, really? Yeah. How old are these? These are 19th century. They're royal. They're from Persia.

And what's incredible about these, they are beaded with actual pearls. They're called blood pearls because they're so tiny that it's so hard to actually make them into a bead. And then this particular pair, I have not committed this poem to memory, I apologize, but it has a poem that goes across the insole in Farsi.

And it says something like, I am dust under your feet. And if anybody says, denies this, you know, they're wrong. It's a little more poetic than that, I have to say. But they're incredible. So it runs the gamut in terms of class, like all different classes of people wore these shoes. Absolutely. And so there is some connection to also religious practice.

So taking your shoes off five times a day to pray in Islam, I think is reflected by this push down of the back because you could make these shoes without that back quarter. So I think that it is a gesture of piety to say, I'm not going to wear these as a pair of shoes. I care less about my shoes than I do my responsibilities. My practice of taking my shoes off. Correct. Yeah. So Aroah, where did you first encounter Faboosh?

In Morocco. So I mentioned earlier to you that my mom was adopted at birth and she

used fashion to understand where she came from. My dad was born and raised in Ghana and he passed away when I was really little. And so when I got into my 20s, I kind of started traveling around Africa, kind of almost like backpacking. Wait, why do you cringe? Because it reminds me of all these... I was in Morocco last week and it reminded me of how irresponsible I was in how I did it. I rented a car from a guy in the parking lot.

like his personal car.

And then when I was bringing it back, I was like, shoot, how am I going to find this guy? And I pulled into the airport and he was just on the side, like waving his hand. I was like, thank God, because I'm running late for my flight. But it was actually it was actually on that trip that I saw people making baboosh for the first time. And I had seen them before. My mom had shown them to me before. And

She collected a lot of things and she owned baboos. She never wore them. And she had a lot of kind of traditional artisanal apparel, actually, that she collected and never wore. But I think, you know, once I was actually there and I was seeing them make these shoes and the thing that struck me the most about going to Morocco the first time was actually the lack of traditional cultural apparel that was there. There was like a lot of

Hood by air knockoffs Yeah, seriously market where they were selling that in the suits. Yeah, and there were a lot of like true religion jeans. It was like Was Cristiano Ronaldo I Was like wait a minute I've been watching these documentaries and this is not what I was expecting So wait were these shoes when you saw them in the market was this considered like tourist? Oh

Tourists can forget. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like, yes and yes. Yes.

Yeah. Not that there weren't people that were still wearing them because there are a lot of people that were still wearing them, but they were largely presented as things that tourists could get and wasn't necessarily aspirational to be wearing that shoe. And I think for me, one of the things that's always been really exciting

and interesting to me with Brother Valleys is taking those things that seem so like commonplace and almost unimportant to people because it's just such a part of their culture that they don't really revere it anymore and putting it on a pedestal and

Well, let's see what you did with the baboosh. So this is one of the early versions that you made. Can you explain how you changed the baboosh and made it for, I believe in your book you described it as like adapted it for New York. What did you do to the baboosh? Yeah. Well, one of the things that I actually had a really tough time with was

were the tanneries when I was there because it was a lot of chemicals and I think for me I was really interested in also I became really obsessed with American donated clothing and how that was essentially just all sitting in landfills in Africa. You mean like the clothing that we dump and export?

Totally, because I was raised in a whole like, well, if you don't want that anymore, let's donate it to a person in need in Africa. Right. And then come to find out that, you know, 80 percent of the manufacturing in Ethiopia has been lost because of American donated clothing. Right. And we think of these things like, oh, Tom's shoes. It's so wonderful. But it's like, you know, when you dump a whole bunch of shoes into a village in Africa, everyone that was making shoes just lost their job.

And I think that as North Americans, it's all very well-intentioned, right? Oh, sure. But my grandmother would say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So I was also really fixated on how many landfill jeans were in Marrakesh. And so this is a pair of jeans. And I thought that I was also kind of...

I don't know, a fun update. It felt a little bit more contemporary to me and kind of a fun take on it. We used a heavier leather sole and we kind of, you know, paid tribute to Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake, I guess.

The Canadian tuxedo. Yes. Good spin, Avery. But how did it actually come about? Did you like go back to the person that was selling the baboosh in the market and be like, can you make, like, how did you actually go about making this? So I'm super nosy

And I was in Morocco just last weekend. And I'll pick things up. And I'll say, who made this? There's a series of questions that I do. And they're like, my friend. They're just trying to sell it and not really engage. And I'm like, well, what if I needed something changed? And they're like, no. And I'm like, well, what if I needed it changed, but I wanted a bunch? And then they're like, how many? So you do that game for a little bit. And then it's like, what's your WhatsApp?

And so these were designed over WhatsApp. Yeah. Yeah. And so this was just basically like designed over WhatsApp. Yeah. I draw things out really quite, you know, unfortunately, it's not good, but it works. How did they react to the idea of like, okay, go to the trash heap and fish out some jeans? Well, they started using new jeans first.

And you had to be like, please don't. Yeah. Yeah. And it takes time, you know, because and also it's I always feel like it's a collaboration. Right. Like I have used a lot of bead work and I never designed any of those pieces.

beaded patterns because I just don't feel like that's my place. So I'll say like, "Hey, these are the colors that are occurring within the rest of the collection and this is and these are my references and inspirations." I'm thinking maybe you might want to do some beading over here or over there and then you know, it's up to them. And so at this point when you started making these initial shoes, you're like, "This is a fun thing for me and my friends." Like how big was the scope? Because you'd never done anything like this before.

Definitely not. No, the scope was small. I mean, I launched it at a flea market. So when I started making these babush, yeah, that was just like for me.

I was like, I just want something that the other girlies aren't wearing. You know? And the budget was small, so. And now, and then they expanded into all different kinds. Yeah. And, you know, you mentioned this a little bit, but this idea of like, cool, right? Yeah. It's like, you know, in your designing and your collaborative designing with these artisans, how far...

far do you push it? Because sometimes you can get very far from tradition. Yeah, real far. I've designed a lot of pairs of baboosh, but one thing that I've never done is mess with the back of the shoe because I think there's things that you just don't do. To me, it's always fine to try something. I'm not going to go into production with everything.

Right. And I think that becomes especially true with certain materials like I use fur. Right. And I use spring box specifically. And that is an animal where there's a mandated culling of it in Namibia and South Africa. So there's a certain amount that are killed every season. And that's it.

Right. So there's a certain amount of production that we can do. And beyond that, like I'm not pushing it. I'm not going to try to ask for any more. It just is what it is. And there's always going to be a cap. So I'd say from a supply chain, I draw boundaries. Well, yes. You guys were just. OK, so this one's the big one. Elizabeth.

Take it away. Okay, well, there's a number of different origin stories for them. But the overarching thought is that they do come from South Africa, that they're not an imported design. They are one just everywhere in South Africa. They are a symbol of South Africa. The term valley or veldskun means field shoe. And so they're worn for all

kinds of walks of life and everybody wears them. This pair is from the 20s. And so you can see sort of how long standing this style has been. And then this one is from the 80s? Yes, this one's from the 80s. And are they pronounced Vellies or Fellies?

I think it depends on who you ask. There's many different pronunciations. Aurora, what is it? Okay, I'm so happy to answer this question. So people ask me literally every day, how do I pronounce it? And I think because Brother Vellies is a luxury brand, people want to pronounce the Vellies, because it's spelled V-E-L-L-I-E-S, in like a French way. Exactly. But actually, it technically is Fellies with an F sound.

And it was interesting because when I started, you know, making them and selling them in America, it just became Velys, but it always lights me up inside when someone says Felys. Because either they're South African and they know and they're about to freak out because they have such a great connection to that shoe or because they know that they've done the research and so for everyone in this room and for everyone that's listening now, if you ever call it Brother Felys,

you're dead on and maybe that could be a goal for me it's like eventually phonetically i'll have everyone get to fellies so the company is called brother fellies not brother babush not right brother kemik not anything else what is your special connection to this shoe and this is the kind that aurora makes so i think for me a couple things and

Okay, so I also grew up in Jamaica. And I will never forget hanging out with the Ross Safarians and they would always wear Clarks. And I would say, you know, what's going on with your shoes or whatever. We would talk about the shoes and they would say, this is an African Jamaican.

And I'm like, no, actually, that's a British shoe. And they're like, no, no, this is an African shoe. It does look very similar to the Clark's Desert boot. Right. And they would be like, no, it's an African shoe. And I'm like, Clark's is a British company. Okay. End of that chapter. Fast forward many years when I'm in Namibia in South Africa and I'm seeing this shoe and I'm realizing, oh, my God, this is a British shoe.

This is a traditional African shoe.

And I started learning about different workshops and visiting different workshops and hearing some of their stories and a lot of the workshops were going out of business. And I was like, wait a minute, these workshops all across Africa that were multi-generational are going out of business and yet there is a ton of people that I know and companies that I know that are selling this shoe shape that have literally made billions of dollars. The math isn't mathing for me. And

I just wanted to do anything that I could to kind of help specifically with a couple workshops that were at risk of closing. And so I had a tiny bit of savings at that time and I just hung out with them and got to know the supply chain. They were working with an animal called a kudu, also Oryx springbok, which is pictured here. And I made a first batch of shoes with them. I tweaked, you know, the width a little bit and the colors and all that jazz and...

Yeah, that was how I launched Brother Valleys with that shoe shape. And it should be said that these look like they were made from an animal. Why was that important to you? I had been vegan for 10 years.

That was very much a personal decision for me. And I think in understanding-- it was a real aha moment for me traveling in Africa, because I realized that that way of life might be sustainable for me living in New York City and Brooklyn. Right. Drinking oat milk or whatever we had back then. Literally, yes.

but that didn't necessarily mean it was right for people in Swakopmund, Namibia and who was I to kind of put my value system on them, their way of life, their ecology and the way that they actually

lived with animals and cared about animals and utilized the entire animal I thought was so beautiful and the part that was hard for me was just seeing how Callously people treated the shoes and stuff that they had so for me it was oh if I can make something Absolutely exquisite that I know is going to be passed down and will be a future heirloom with

what remains of this animal, then I actually think that I'm

the animal better. And I mean, you'd include the part of the leather where the bullet was. It was really about showing that something died for this. Yeah, the first pair of shoes I ever made by myself, because everything that I learned about shoes, I learned from people in Africa. And the very first pair that I made totally by myself had the bullet that I put on the heel. And I have to say, I learned so much about the animal kingdom from reading your book. I was like, I've not heard about half of

of these critters. Like you were using fish leather later on, like this like form of sheep that gets like dyed by the sun. It's incredible. Why do we, why do we have such a limited, this is a question for you, Elizabeth. Why do we have such a limited range for what we think shoes can be made of?

I mean, historically, they're made out of many, many different things all around the world. And, you know, like we were talking about earlier, resources, different climates, but industrialization, right? It's easy to have standardized processes, having standardized leather, its thickness. You know, you were talking about denim and all of the complications that come with working with different materials.

slow down production. And then another interesting like kind of larger shoe question that I think the the Feli brings up is sizing because so

We're all wearing brother bellies tonight, which is a huge... This is a huge deal for me because I'm a big girl. I'm a size 12, and there's not a lot of shoes that come in my size. And so it's so cool that you... And Elizabeth is also very tall. We both have big feet. This is very exciting for us. 12 isn't big anymore.

- I love it so much. Well actually, so this is a question I asked this to you the other day, but people don't know that. Are our feet getting bigger? What's going on? Why is 12 not so big anymore? - And so it is a bit of a complicated question. So yes, we are getting bigger, but we're also accepting larger feet, and we're also letting women walk around more. I mean, talking specifically about Western culture.

And when we were going through storage and you were looking at all the tiny, tiny little 18th century shoes. Little. Very, very little. And I made the point that it also, Cinderella was written in 1697 for a reason. And that was because different ideas about female beauty were emerging and tiny feet was starting to become one of those things.

new ideas. And so that collecting, those ideas have influenced collecting. And so we have scores of small women's shoes

But-- That are just historically prized, so they're kept because they're small. Exactly. And you do not see the same issue with men's shoes from the same period. So we have different ideas about men's shoes and the qualities associated with men and big feet and other things. And so we have to shake our heads around getting rid of the idea that small is beautiful. And then if we could-- I mean, we can't go back in time. All those shoes have been thrown into the dumpster.

All those beautiful size 12 shoes. But yes, women had a wide variety of size feet and we just didn't save all those big shoes. So what is so different about the sizing for fellies? It's like a totally alternative universe. Yeah, it's like a South African sizing model. And then the way that we kind of adapted it was just to keep it gender neutral. So it starts at like a one and goes up to a belly 13, which is like...

A Devin Booker size. And what size is like a one? Is that like a child is a one? Okay, a one, it would be a women's size five. Okay. So is this like a thing? Do lots of different...

countries have different versions of sizing? Yes. And shoe sizing itself is a wild concept, right? Like, I mean, historically and around the world, many cultures, you worked with the shoemaker the way you've been working with shoemakers to get something made for you. And the idea of having a shoe size was, again, part of industrialization. And it changed the way we even think about our own bodies.

Like, you used to go to a shoemaker, get a pair of shoes, you often brought the materials, you talked to them, you walked out with a pair of Elizabeth-sized shoes. And then industrialization made more shoes available, different price points, but it made it that when you walked in, you were like, "Oh, I'm a size 11."

Right. What's in my size and does it meet my needs? A very different approach to clothing the body. I will say to your point, at one of our workshops, they were used to actually just having people come in and stencil their feet and then they build a shoe around that. That is so cool. Yeah, that's very true. I mean, that's... Yeah, and we still...

Maybe it would be a little harder now, but even before a pandemic for a few of our customers, we would do that for the Vellies. That is so cool. It's interesting. Now that we're talking about it, I'm like, oh, I can't remember the last time that someone even used a Brannock device on me. Yeah. Which is the little metal thing that measures your foot in the shoe store. Remember that one, guys? Which is the sweetest, most tender...

like salesmanship tool in the world. And we just don't use it anymore. You're hot stocking feet on that cool metal. Getting measured. But if you stand back and you look at the entire history of human clothing and footwear production, that is new. And I actually think it's coming to an end.

And so I think that we will in 500 years look back and say, wait, they used to have to wear something called a size? And it'll be so weird. Wait, why is that coming to an end? Uh-oh, is this AI? It is. Yeah. It's, you know, it's 3D printing and it's knitting at home and it's all the kinds of ways in which we can do hyper customization, mushroom leather, growing your shoes overnight to fit your own feet. Like there's a lot of exciting things on the horizon.

And also on the horizon, after the break, more shoes and a little talk about whether or not shoes should cost so dang much. More shoes, more shoes. We're not done. Elizabeth, what are these?

OK, so these are tire sandals. These are from Cambodia. And they're made out of tires. Yeah, leftover tires. Tire sandals are made around the world. Rubber is a durable material. And tires--

They wear out, but the bulk of it remains usable. And so, you know, knowing that you discuss tire sandals, I thought it'd be interesting to show a Cambodian pair as well as an African pair. These are from South Africa. Okay. Yeah. So when did we start to see tire sandals emerge all over the world?

the second you had the leftover tires really so like the 50s 40s no you see it earlier yeah rubber footwear like the flip-flop goes back to the 30s in japan when they were sort of replicating their traditional footwear and so that use of rubber has been definitely throughout the 20th century and so aurora how did you come to your version of the tire sandal in kenya

met a bunch of Maasai guys who were largely working in the Maasai Mara but also in Nairobi. Mainly entertaining tourists. Like they would just pose for pictures. Yeah, pose for pictures. Some of them would actually be

So if you go on safari in Kenya, right, and you go to the village and do a whole experience there or whatever, a lot of these guys would come and like play the village person and let the village people actually just like have their regular normal day and not be disturbed. Oh, that's kind of smart. And they would do the tourist stuff. And there was some of them that actually weren't Maasai. And there was one guy actually that went to college in London. Yeah.

And we just, he, they called themselves the fake Maasai, but it was amazing. I was like, listen, guys, get it. I was here for it.

But it was so fascinating because they were all wearing these tire sandals and they were just made by collecting all the discarded tires from the safari vehicles that were kind of littering parts of the Mara. And so in your mind you were like, this is next. This is the next project for me. Yeah, I thought it was incredible. And also we were working a lot on the coast of Kenya and there were a lot of tires sort of around the beach. And

And I thought, okay, why not pull these out and start making these shoes? I thought it was really wonderful. I originally started making them in South Africa and they were like, it was so hard to make them there.

they just weren't connecting to that shoe. And that was when I realized, oh, I actually just need to be making shoes in the place that I'm seeing them show up. Yeah, you were saying that in South Africa, it's not really like a sandal culture. No, they're Philly people. They're not trying to make a sandal. They're not wearing that. When they saw the reference that I brought them from the Mara, they were like, ew. Ew.

They weren't into it. So it's like, and because everyone said to me really early on, like, well, why do you produce in so many countries? That seems like a nightmare. And it kind of was, even though it was really rewarding for me. But I was like, listen, like, you can't fit a square peg into a round hole. Like, why force it, you know? But I mean, so many other people do. I mean, people in many different countries do.

are manufacturing goods designed in a third country for market in, you know, the first country. It's all jumbled up. It's so interesting that you decided in your supply chain to like make the shoes in the factory where they are from. Yeah, because that's what was interesting to me, right? If I just wanted to make any shoe, then I would go do that in Italy, right?

And we do work in Italy now a bit and there's things that they are really good at doing and so I let them do the things that they're really good at doing. But it's like don't we kind of all just want the opportunity to do the thing that we're best at doing that we feel most connected to in our own culture?

And this, the brand was not called like Aurora James Shoes, right? It was called Brother Valleys. And that was really about this whole idea of a brotherhood of shoes because there's different shoes that are coming from different parts in the world. That's part of how you recognize people and understand people and like,

I like actually keeping things, you know, with where they're from. Well, I mean, the interesting thing about that is, you know, as you alluded to, it is not uncomplicated. And you write about this in your book. I mean, I cannot imagine the ways you read or watch or listen to the news, knowing that you know so many people all over the world in all these different factories and

Your work doesn't happen in a bubble. And may I ask you about how Al Shabaab interfered with the production of these shoes multiple times? Yeah, Nordstrom was not happy. That's the thing. That you were engaging, like the news was actually impacting you and the supply chain doesn't,

allow for that. You know what I mean? That's why I think it's so bad that we have such a wall between the consumer and the process, right?

Because it was very real. It was like El Shabab was there. They were taking shipments. They were not letting business. They were a terrorist organization that was really causing significant hardships in Kenya while I was working there. You know, we had the UN try to get involved and, and,

And it was really difficult. It was painstaking. It was upsetting, right? Because we had really created a momentum for these people in these workshops in Kenya, right? And they were so proud of the work that they were doing. And it's months and months and months, right? And then just to have this whole shipment of shoes be taken, I mean, it was...

Again and again, you know? Yeah. And I mean, I guess this is a kind of larger question. I mean, when you talk about the limited supply of leather and these interceptions, it just seems like, yeah, capitalism isn't conducive to artisanship. Not at all. How do you do it? No, but...

Capitalism isn't. Sales are not. Trends are not. Shein is not. Like all of these things are not, right? And it is really hard because I think also, you know, in theory, there's so many people who are like, oh my God, like I love this shoe so much. I love that it's made to order. I love that it's handmade. I love the supply chain. I love it.

all can you overnight it to me for tomorrow you know and that disconnect is really real and it's like no like it's made to order and it's like oh my god but can you just talk to them so that I can get it like next week for my birthday you know and listen like I love it I love the enthusiasm but no yeah

Right because it's not how it works. So I think we it's so fascinating as humans, right? And I see this so much especially these days. It's like we like to say who we are, but we don't necessarily live who we are always. So like did you have to then go to Nordstrom and be like, hey, listen, the shipment. It's called Olivia Kim.

And what was the reaction? Were they like, tough luck? She was able to give me grace and all that, but that's not normal, right? Normally in a retail environment, if you're a couple days late, your whole order can get canceled. And that happened to us too. I mean, I...

We had a huge season with that tire sandal where we had a giant retailer call us and be like, Aurora, what the hell? And I'm like, what's up? And they're like, all the tire treads are different. Oh, my God. And I was like, well, yeah, I know. Remember I told you we were like pulling them off of the beach. So it's a lot of different. And they're like, yeah, but this isn't going to work for the customers. Oh, God. That's real. So.

You stopped selling them, right? Literally, yes. For that reason? Yes. Because people would be like, it's not exactly as it is in the photo. And I'm like, I know because it's a good year and the photo was a firestone. But it's real. That's real, you know? And so to your earlier point about why can't these things exist, it's because we don't have that relationship with the consumer. Right.

And by the way, that relationship with the consumer is incredibly expensive. You mean having a shop? Having a shop, having a customer service person that can pick up every call to explain about the Goodyear Firestone situation, right? Like there's a reason why it's just easier to crank out, you know, fast fashion. A lot more profitable. Yeah.

Okay, oh my god, you guys are really killing it with these transitions. I just can't thank you enough. That brings us to our next shoe. Will you do me the honor, Elizabeth, of describing what this shoe is? This is a Mexican Huarache. And so this is a traditional form of footwear found throughout Mexico, handmade. Like a woven leather sandal. A woven leather sandal in natural color. And it too has become a symbol of Mexico.

And how old are they? That is a good question because wearing of leather sandals goes back to pre-Columbian times 100%. But you don't necessarily always see this weaving technique. But you do with some vegetable fiber shoes. So the weaving techniques of...

making footwear be it leather or vegetable fiber. When you say vegetable fiber you mean like grass or yeah, so so anything that can be woven like a basket, you know and so people in the southern part of North America have for a very long time used weaving techniques to make footwear and this is a leather example. And it's and it's does it is it gendered in any way? Is it men's shoe?

- Men and women can wear them. It's not as highly gendered. There may be differences that I am unaware of, but it's not a specifically overly gendered shoe. - And this is the Brother Feli's version. Aurora, you said you grew up knowing about Huaraches, wearing them? - Yeah, absolutely. My mom was a big fan of Huaraches, and she always told me this is a traditional Mexican shoe.

And I mean, what an incredible shoe. Why? It's just so comfortable. It's so beautiful. It's such a classic shoe. You can take it from... I mean, I sound like I'm on QVC, but you can literally take it from day to night. I mean, it's just... It's just an incredible shoe. I tell you, it's so good. Okay, but here's... So...

In a market in Mexico where you buy these, they are really cheap, right? Yeah, like $3 or so, I'm told, on Instagram. Well, and you are told this on Instagram because the Brother Feli's version is not so cheap. $235. So...

How do you explain yourself? What happens when people are mad at you about this? Yeah, it was a whole kerfuffle, shall we say, because Meghan Markle tends to wear them in the summers, and then there's a whole thing of where people will be like, oh my god, Meghan Markle in these shoes, and

And then everyone freaks out like, oh my God, they're $235. You can get these for $6. I can't believe that, you know, Aurora is doing this. It's blasphemy. And I'm like, but wait a minute, guys. These shoes take hours and hours and hours to make. They do. Right? Hours. I mean, the weaving is...

so beautiful so intricate even just getting the leather in a way where the supply chain is clean where we're not using crazy chemicals and tanning the leather so that we're not leaving a horrible chemical footprint no pun intended in the environment you know um so while i understand that you can buy them for three dollars in a market in mexico

the people that made that shoe were not paid fairly for their work. And so if I can work with Meghan Markle to change the idea around what we should be paying for that shoe so that people in Mexico can start being paid more for their time, I consider that to be a win across the board.

And I love that you phrase it as an opportunity to raise the profile of these shoes. And you say all the time, you know, the difference between

lot of these traditional handicrafts are like if it's made in Italy versus made in Africa totally and yeah so why I mean I guess this is just another version of the question a lot of your shoes are really expensive why why charge so much yeah I think it's a supply chain thing for me right and I think you

you know at the end of the day like I have to be accountable to the work that we're doing and you know I want to make sure that we pay people something that feels really great

And a lot of the artisans that work in our workshop have gone off and started their own businesses afterwards. And that to me is what makes me feel wonderful, right? Like there are a lot of designers who have done a version of Harachi's or a version of Babush and they'll change the name to be something else, right? And to me it's like I want people to know

that this is a hirachi and you can go online and you can probably find a pair on Etsy or you can probably find a pair somewhere else. And I want you to also do that, even though, you know, I understand it's not necessarily what's best for my business, but like my the business that I'm in is also about cultural awareness.

And I really truly believe that all ships rise with the tide and I want all of the artisans around the world to be able to sustain what they're doing because I don't want to live in a world where fashion is only made in sweatshops.

Because that's not fashion to me. I wasn't raised to believe that that was fashion. I was raised to believe that that was products. And I believe that fashion is something that's made by people with intention and with love. And I believe that it's a powerful piece of art. But what do you say to people who find it undemocratic that they can't?

afford the shoes that they love. Yeah, that's also a legitimate argument that we get. And, you know, someone asked me the other day, like, what's your best-selling shoe? And I was like, I don't know. You'd have to ask Steve Madden. Ooh. You know? Can you explain what you mean by that? Because designers design, and then...

dudes do what they do, which is knock it off. And he can get to market way faster than I can at a way lower price point. And you're not just speaking theoretically. No, no. My guy is on it. You know? He doesn't sleep. He was out of jail real quick the other day making new shoes. So... You can't keep these guys down. Trust me. 2024, here we go. But anyways, like...

It's hard, right? It's really hard. And I mean, because you said something in your book, it was like just because, and when I read that, I was like, ah, woof. It was like, just because you love something, it doesn't mean you have to own it. Yeah. I mean, that's a wild thing for a business owner to say. Right. I guess it was. That's why I shouldn't be in the comments, Avery. Yeah.

What do you mean by that? No, no, no. That was, all jokes aside, that was in response to someone who, in the early days of Brother Valleys, I was really knocked off relentlessly. And they would do it where they gave it like an African spin to like... Yeah, wasn't it called like wild things? Yeah, wild things out of Africa, you know? And... Cringe. And...

And so I posted about it on Instagram, which, by the way, like people don't love that. And someone wrote back in the comments and they said, I have to be honest with you. I was actually so excited when I saw that Steve Madden made a version of your Lamu sandal because I loved it so much and I wanted to own it so much. And I knew that once he made it, I would finally be able to. And my heart broke. Yeah.

And I started having some of those conversations. The first thing that I did was like I made a video on how you can turn your favorite sandal in your closet into a Lamu sandal and try to DIY it because I think we should also work on reinventing the shoes that we already have in our closet. I think that's so important and I should make more of those videos. But yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I started really wrestling with this idea with especially some of our more expensive shoes, like the doodle boot, which is a thousand dollars, right? Made in Mexico, hand painted. And someone was like, I wish that you could get your prices down because it needs to be more democratic. And I was like, this is this is art. Like these people in Mexico are making this shoe with me like this is art. And just because you love something is.

doesn't mean that you have to have it and it doesn't also give another person the right to steal that thing on your behalf. Amazing. And also an incredible transition to our final shoe. So Elizabeth. I'm up again, okay. All right, let's see. Thank you for doing this job. What are these? Oh, these are cowboy boots. But these are boules from Canada, from Quebec.

Oh, yeah. Third generation, the oldest cowboy boot manufacturer in Canada. And everything's made here in Canada, handmade. They're beautiful.

Can you describe what they look like a little bit for people? Yeah, sorry. I keep forgetting that people can't see them. They're red and black with it looks almost like a spinal column in white. They're pretty metal. Yeah, they are actually pretty metal. This is one of their classic designs. And this is a pair of San Diego cowboy boots made in Mexico.

And it has like a traditional sort of wild west vibe.

cacti, cow skull. It's very interesting that neither of these examples that you gave were made in America. I thought this was an American thing. Where do cowboy boots come from? Well, cowboy boots, actually, they do start out with cowboys. When the big herds were being created after the Civil War, most cowboys were

cow punchers just wore usually ex-military boots from the Civil War. And then what happened was that all of these cowboys were taking all of the cows to the rail heads once the railway was put in, and they would get paid. And so some enterprising-- Upon delivery. Upon delivery, they would get their money. And so one of the first things that they would do is order bespoke boots.

Like there at the station. There at the station. And so cowboys, because their masculinity could not be called into question, they were allowed to be a little more exuberant in their fashion. And so they tended to wear higher heels. In the 19th century, they actually are described as wearing French heels. And they are also accused of wearing shoes. Freedom heels, as we call them. Yes. Yes.

They also wore boots that were too tiny for their feet, another criticism of the time. But that flamboyant style that you see, that sort of, you know, we think of as the cowboy look,

really comes up from Mexico. And then it is hyper romanticized in the 50s, the post-war period, howdy doody, et cetera. The movie star cowboy is wearing movie star worthy boots that everybody starts to want. - Why were so many movies about cowboys? Like why did the cowboy come in? Do you know? - Yeah.

I do. I have, in fact, thought about this. So the cowboy boot becomes romanticized around the turn of the 20th century. Then World War I happens. And all of a sudden, the wealthy in America cannot go to Europe for holidays, so they start going to dude ranches. Vogue magazine in the 20s is telling you what boots to go buy, how you should look so that you look like you're an authentic cowboy.

And then the same thing basically happens again after World War II. You can't go to Europe. And so the Wild West becomes the place where you can vacation, but it also becomes part of the mythos of what America is. But are they American? And so, yes, they are American. Okay. But they have influence from Mexico. So the leather work is very highly influenced by Mexico. But that is because cowboys...

were Mexican. I mean, they were arranged. They were indigenous. They were escaped slaves. They were Mexicans. And all of these styles are coming together as part of that flamboyant style that these guys are, you know, they're leaving the cows, they're going into the bootmaker, and they're working with their bootmaker to get crazy boots made that are extremely flamboyant. And then it captures the attention of the public

One first with movies and like I said it happens again in the 50s and that leads to all the TV shows set in the Wild West and a lot of ideas of American exceptionalism and also family values, you know, if you think about Ronald Reagan, what did he do? He played a cowboy and he wore cowboy boots as a president and

And so it cemented the concept of American... Which is so funny. They're not family men at all. Right. Cowboys. I know. I know. Correct. They're not. So this is not in your book, but you just talked about it. You have done a version of the cowboy boot that you call the doodle boot. Where did this come from for you?

So I also love cowboy boots. I love the history. I really kind of set out to make them, I guess it was in 2019. And we started looking at and talking to a bunch of workshops kind of across the southern United States. And

It was really hard to find a workshop that I kind of wanted to partner with because I didn't feel like there was a lot of value alignment. You know what I'm saying? What do you mean by that?

Well, you know, we spend a bunch of money with our workshop, so I want to also be a conscious consumer, and I believe that you vote with your dollars. And around that same time, there was also this very annoying man that was talking a lot of trash about Mexico. Yeah.

And about Mexican people. And I was like, actually, I think we should make our traditional American cowboy boots in Mexico. The way they were traditionally made. Exactly. And so that's when we started making the doodle boot. And that one in the picture was called the My Body, My Choice Doodle Boot and supported Planned Parenthood.

And, yeah. I wanted to buy that, but I didn't have enough time. I mean, just, can I ask, because we just talked about how these boots represent, like, traditional American values, American exceptionalism, Ronald Reagan, Westerns. What initially attracted you to cowboy boots? What did you see in them? The idea of, like, inverting some of that, you know, because I think,

a lot of things. It's like my mom would say about the high heel, right? Like she would say, oh,

"Oh, that was usually used as a tool to stop women from running away. What are you going to do to help them run further now with that same thing?" And so I've thought about that in my work often. How can we take symbols or ideas that have kind of conventionally maybe not been for us and really make them for us? So Anna Wintour once turned to you and asked you if you wanted to be a designer or you wanted to be an activist. What did you tell her?

I said that respectfully, I thought I could be both. Why do you say that? Because I think that design is an incredibly powerful tool to wield. And I think by virtue of Brother Vellies going on to then create, in many ways, the 15% pledge, I did become both. And quick, yeah.

Well the 15% pledge is it was something I launched on social media initially in 2020 in the wake of George Floyd's murder Which was a call to action for major corporations to commit 15% of their shelf space to black-owned brands and my 15% because that's roughly the population of black Americans and now

I'm very proud to say it's one of the fastest growing nonprofits in America and We are in the process of reallocating over 14 billion dollars of annual revenue to black owned businesses across the country Thanks guys Thank you so much Thank you Elizabeth, thank you Avery, thanks to Friday Night

Thank you so much to everyone who came out. And thanks to everyone at the Bada Shoe Museum. I love that place. Thanks also to Will DeNovi, Desiree DeLima, and Crystal McDonald at Hot Docs. Thanks to Sarah Espedito at Brother Valleys, Shona Cook at Penguin Random House. Aurora James' book is called Wildflower. It is wild.

But that's why I wrote the book, because I was like, if you can just rip off the Band-Aid, it's like, am I going to spend my whole career worried that someone's going to find out that I went to jail once? No, let's just tell them. I'll have a link to Aurora's book and images of all the shoes that we talked about at articlesofinterest.substack.com. Radiotopia

From PRX.