Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
It's 9:30 in the morning. I am at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and tonight, at this very spot, this museum will be full of celebrities attending the Met Gala.
I mean, already at this early hour, the museum is full of tents and cops and bystanders already lining the barricades, staking out a good spot so they can see celebrities later. And the Internet tonight will be plastered with pictures of very glamorous people wearing all manner of outrageous outfits. But the thing that's really interesting to me is that people will not only be commenting on designers and on celebrities, they'll also be talking about stylists.
There's this widespread acknowledgement that like, oh, celebrities don't always dress themselves. And you'd think this would be like a dirty secret. But, you know, Robert Downey Jr. even thanked his stylist in his Oscar speech. I'm going to thank my stylist in case no one else does. Thanks.
Erica, thank you very much. And many stylists have become celebrities in their own right. They give interviews, they offer styling tips, many of them are like designing diffusion lines. And so I was wondering,
what was up with this? Where did all these celebrity stylists come from? How did this become a job and how did this become so readily acceptable? So I brought this question to one of my favorite podcasts called Decoder Ring and it's made by Slate and host Willa Paskin and I dove in to try to figure out the answer. So I thought I'd share it today in honor of the Met Gala. Okay, I'm going to go into the press preview now.
This is Decoder Ring. I'm Willa Paskin. Like a manager or an agent or a publicist, a stylist has become a kind of must-have accessory for well-dressed A-list celebrities. It's just expected they'll have hired someone to select the clothes they'll wear at all of their public appearances.
But this was not always the case. In today's episode, Avery Truffleman will guide us through the collapse of a certain kind of Hollywood glamour, into the rise of a growing financially rewarding relationship between fashion designers and celebrity culture, and then onto the explosion in red carpet events patrolled by fashion police that all helped create this new occupation. So today on Decoder Ring, how did stylist become a job?
So Avery, where does the story of the stylist begin? So the story of the stylist starts before the stylist was really like a twinkle in anyone's eye. We're talking about like the turn of the last century through the 1920s. High fashion meant fashion.
Like, fancy designer clothes all just came from Paris. These handmade, hand-sewn garments that most Americans would probably never be able to see in person. I mean, these were gowns by Coco Chanel and Christian Dior and...
They were absurdly expensive. They were one of a kind. And so in the early days of Hollywood, when the movies were silent, everybody on screen would be wearing these exciting, exotic, elite clothes. And this is why everyone went to the movies. I talked to this extremely iconic fashion reporter, Terry Agans. She founded the Fashion Beat at the Wall Street Journal. She's a hero of mine.
And she told me that cinema was the main way that Americans got to experience fashion. You went to see fancy furs and, you know, incredible wardrobes. And that's when you get to see all the new different styles. Even though they didn't necessarily know who the designers were, they knew that the clothes came from Paris. And it was a selling point. Like, check it out. We have the latest fashions from France. This was sort of the way it was, that Hollywood was more or less interwoven with the French fashion system.
until 1929. What had happened in Paris was they had come out with a new look of clothes.
The hemlines were lower. I mean, and it was a complete different silhouette. All the French fashion designers were shifting away from this, like, carefree flapper style. And it left the studios, who had already shot footage for movies with these, like, short flapper dresses in the lurch. You know, their movies are slated to come out. And suddenly they looked outdated, like they weren't offering the latest in French fashion anymore.
And it was like, oh man, moviegoers were paying 25 cents to be entertained with the latest. And they were not seeing the latest. They were seeing clothes that were dated. Well, the movie studio was like, oh my God, what are we going to do?
And so they just figured out, OK, we are no longer using Paris couture in the movies. We are now going to establish Hollywood and not Paris as a fashion capital of the world. So Hollywood severs its ties with Paris. Parisian couture was more or less banned. You know, they were like, we we do not abide by this system anymore.
We will not follow the seasons. We will not follow the trends because it's not a good investment. You know, you never know. You never know when these designers are going to... We're not going to get played again. Yeah, exactly. We're not going to get played again. And so they all pretty much turn to their in-house costumers who are really talented. And they're like, OK, now you make the clothes.
And so in the beginning of the '30s, the costume departments in the studio start creating this very safe, timeless style
for their actors, and it totally works. And you can close your eyes and you can imagine it. It's like slinky satin gowns and elegant three-piece suits. And we now call this Hollywood style. You're like, even now on red carpets, they'll be like, she looks so old Hollywood. Usually when someone is wearing exactly what you just described, sort of like close-fitting, some Art Deco detailing. And that is coming from the 1930s, when the movies are actually also starting to talk. Exactly. So the movies are talking about
They're wearing this like pretty consistent style. And now we are solidly in the era of the studio system. Vast and imaginative plants, the studios create for millions another world, a world of incomparable magic and make-believe.
So each studio is basically like a self-contained factory and it contains all the parts it needs to make the movies. So you have set designers, you have directors, you have makeup artists, and you have costume designers, all...
working continuously to churn out movies on behalf of the different studios. And so actors are actually on contract. It's like a whole system. Yeah, exactly. And so this means that because the actors are there in-house and the costumers are there in-house, the costumers can craft very consistent looks for actors across all their movies. The one thing about these costume designers in the studios is
These people were really good at what they did. These clothes were, they were engineered for each particular actress.
And if the actress had like a flat fanny or if she didn't have boobs, you know, they would pad things. So these designers were really, really clever and deft and just understood how to make an actress look good. So take Joan Crawford, for example. Her whole persona in all of her films was that she was really tough. Get out. Get your things out of here before I throw them into the street and you with them. Get out before I kill you.
Part of that was you always saw her wearing these huge shoulder pads. And that look was designed for her by the costume designer at MGM. His name was Gilbert Adrian. When Adrian put her in those strong shoulder pads...
And that really strong look, that really did resonate with a lot of women because they're like, wow, you know, Joan Crawford, you know, she's really a badass. It makes sense that the costume designers would be designing costumes for movies. That's their job. But the thing that was so interesting about this moment is they're also designing costumes
for the celebrities to wear not on screen. I mean, this was a time sort of famously when the studios were in the business of crafting every single part of any celebrity's life. Yes, they'd be like, your name will be Rita Hayworth and we will make you, like, sexy but inappropriate.
in an approachable way. And, you know, they sort of like create these... Your whole persona. Exactly. They give you a romantic partner. They give you a whole story. Exactly. And so part of that is then... We'll dress you. Exactly. They were so invested in fully crafting their entire persona that they...
clothed them for almost everything they needed. Going out to dinner, at premieres, just living their lives, even their wedding dresses. A wedding of two Hollywood film stars, Dick Powell and Joan Blondell. And what a happy day for the couple. And so some of the house costumers got dressed
like, as famous, arguably, as some of these French designers. For example, like, Edith Head is a costumer at Paramount, and she became really famous in her own right. I mean, she's so famous, she's in The Incredibles. This is a hobo suit, darling. You can't be seen in this. I mean, Edna Mode is, like, supposed to be Edith Head. Exactly. So...
Hollywood is totally separate from French fashion to make sure that their movies don't fall out of style. But the feeling is also mutual. Like French fashion does not want to be in the movies. There was a moment when Coco Chanel came to Hollywood in the 30s and she was like, she couldn't hack it. She left. Dior would dress like a few sort of high end celebrities like Marlena Dutrick. But
By and large, like, his fancy upper-crust French clients did not want him dressing movie actors. I mean, this was considered... Movies are, like, very popular. Yes, yes. And that is not high-end couture fashion. So French fashion does not like Hollywood, and Hollywood does not like French fashion. And Hollywood is instead doing this thing called Hollywood style, which is being made by costume designers, and they are doing it everywhere. On screen, off screen. Yeah, and they keep doing that until...
everything falls apart.
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Okay, so under the studio system, stars were more or less cared for, cared for, controlled, however you want to put it, in like every single way. They never had to worry about what they would wear
And then the studio system fell apart. Right. Initially, it's a series of lawsuits. But over a period of like 10 to 15 years, this whole factory system of like assembly lining your movies, it's not allowed anymore. And so sort of by the late 60s, they no longer have actors on contract. They no longer have directors on contract. Everyone's sort of becoming freelance, including, of course, the costume designers. Right. And...
Because everyone is a freelancer now, the stars are kind of on their own. And they have to begin to fend for themselves, kind of for the first time in Hollywood history, which means that the stars have to go shopping. And since they'd never had to shop...
They weren't very good at it, frankly. This is Dana Thomas, author of many excellent fashion books, including Deluxe, How Luxury Lost Its Luster. And I spoke with her about this very particular moment when suddenly movie stars have to try to figure out what to wear. Because they had been dressed...
by the studios for so long. They had a certain style that had been developed for them, but that didn't necessarily mean that they had innate style. And suddenly you saw like, wow, Barbra Streisand isn't looking as fabulous as she did in the early 60s. You know, she was just kind of showing up in pantsuits. You know what I mean?
Generally, in the 60s and 70s, it's a more casual period. People are dressed down. And even on screen, the stories are not about, like, the glamorous lives of the rich and famous. The stories are more about normal people who are dressed normally. You talking to me? La-dee-da, la-dee-da, la-la.
And stars are like, they're even buying outfits from like normal department stores. Like you could see a celebrity at Saks getting something that they might wear to the Oscars. While it was lovely to see people looking like themselves rather than what the Hollywood machine had crafted, it should be their public image. It was also sometimes so casual that you were like, could we make a little bit more of an effort? This is supposed to be a nice event.
By the 1980s, Hollywood was starting to agree with Dana. Casual was going out of style. We're talking Coke, Gordon Gekko, money, Wall Street, Reagan. Like, it's like glamour's back, baby. Like, big shoulders, gowns, like, a lot of money. Like, money is back. Money is back. You want to be, like, dripping in money. But the stars are still on their own. And basically on their own.
They started to make some unfortunate decisions. And that's when we had real fashion horrors on the red carpet. Tonight, it's the 61st Annual Academy Awards.
I remember watching Oscars were hilarious. That's Terry Agans again. Because you'd see all these celebrities and just, they would come up with anything. Ladies and gentlemen, Demi Moore and Bruce Willis. Demi Moore, Demi Moore wore bike shorts to the Oscars. And everybody was laughing like crazy, like how could she wear something like that? You saw all kind of weird get-ups. Miss Kim Basinger.
Kim Basinger wore this dress that she designed herself that's like half long sleeve, half short sleeve. You're like, is that avant-garde or just terrible? Like, do you know what's happening? Jodie Foster in 1989 when she won an Oscar for The Accused. This is such a big deal and my life is so simple.
She's wearing this like powder blue dress with a big bow in the back. I mean, she looks like a baby doll. It's not very sophisticated. I mean, it was like a bad prom bridesmaid's dress. It just, you just sort of, I remember watching those Oscars and you just sort of were like, what is she wearing? Thank you so much. Thank you.
Jodie Foster was very insulted by all of the hate that her cream puff blue prom dress got because she picked it out herself in Milan and she thought it was really beautiful. And I think it was this very vulnerable thing for stars to like show their true tastes.
and to get completely raked over the coals. I think that most of us equate celebrities with having a lot of style, but they're just ordinary people like the rest of us. And a lot of them may look good because they were wardrobe a certain way for a movie, but they don't really have any innate style. So they needed somebody to help them out. And someone would come to help them out.
this new upcoming designer named Giorgio Armani. Heard of him? Yes. Well, okay. So now we think of Giorgio Armani as like this, you know, up there with Dior and Chanel as this kind of like classic brand. But at the time, he was really separate. So Armani was this young upstart. He was not based in France. He was based out of Milan. And he...
And his style was also totally different. When you think about, you know, the 80s had all these like big structured power suits. He was making these suits that were very loose. They were made of linen. They were breathable. They were in earth tones. They weren't like black and shiny. They have a glamour. They have an Elan. And everybody looked good in his clothes. But Armani was really small. You could only buy his clothes at Barney's in New York. But this...
Small group of people in Hollywood were, like, catching on to this niche, little-known designer. And they were mostly people who were not on camera. There were a lot of powerful agents and directors. And one of these fans was John Travolta's manager, this guy Bob Lamond. And Travolta was hired by director Paul Schrader to play in this new movie called America Gigolo. And Lamond said, you know...
you should get that character to wear these suits, these Giorgio Armani suits. If he's supposed to be a gigolo and he's supposed to look great and hot and sexy and modern and fabulous, he should be wearing Armani suits.
And then Travolta met with Armani, went to Milan, he did fittings, all this, and then he dropped out of the movie to go make Urban Cowboy. And Schrader hired this unknown actor named Richard Gere. And Richard then put on the Armani suits and looked like a million bucks. Often in these big hotels, you run into women from foreign countries who may need a translator or died. And they hire you? Yes.
Armani sees sales skyrocket when this movie comes out. And so they're like, "Okay, this Hollywood thing, it's doing well for us." And so then they went on to clothe the cast of The Untouchables. Again, sales go up. He's just seeing this rocket-like connection between his clothes and the movies. This was the first time anybody had sort of sewed the two together and realized that this was a marketing platform.
So Armani has discovered the power of celebrity in a way that nobody else really had yet. Like Chanel and Dior were still refusing to dress celebrities. The one notable example was that like Audrey Hepburn was dressed by Givenchy. But that's like the exception that proves the rule. This was not something that established designers did. Except...
Armani decides to like make this his whole thing. He decides to go all in. He's like, all right, Hollywood will be the way to establish my brand. So he hired this fabulous woman named Wanda McDaniel, who had been a journalist working at the Herald Examiner covering celebrities. Giorgio Armani hired her and said, I
I'm giving you one thing to do, and that is to dress these celebrities who really need help and who could look so much better. And so who does she call but Jodie Foster? And it's like, hey, I know you got a lot of shit for the tutu dress. Let me take care of it. Let Armani dress you. Come by. We'll hook you up. And she said, oh, God, please take this burden off my shoulders. Yes. For the rest of my life, please just help.
Wanda McDaniel starts calling everybody, like, "Do you want us to take care of you? Come into our warm embrace. Like, we got you." So the next year, Giorgio Armani dressed about four or five of the top actresses. And when they walked on the red carpet in these long, pure, spare columns in very solid colors that were just the right color for each woman,
with some sparkle, but not too much sparkle. Their hair beautiful, but not overly formal. They looked just
beautiful and suddenly everyone was gaga. And that was the moment. Women's Wear Daily did this headline and they called the Oscars the Armani Awards because in '91 every celebrity who was worth something was wearing Armani, men and women. De Niro, you know, Schwarzenegger, Glenn Close, the whole gang.
And so Armani just starts getting a lot of attention that he's crafting these celebrities to look so elegant and stately. And one by one, celebrities are starting to ask to be styled by Armani. They start to shop at the Armani store. And it was directly, again, impacting sales. And then a light bulb went on.
Every designer said, "We're not going to let Armani have this to himself." So they all decided that they needed to get into the game.
And so all these designers start inviting celebrities into their VIP rooms, inviting them to their salons, inviting them into their boutiques for a glass of champagne. And increasingly, celebrities are going because they need more and more clothes. We're at the beginning of this period where you're starting to have this whole explosion of media, MTV, TV.
In Style Magazine, you saw celebrities in full-length shots. You saw them on the town. You saw them behind the velvet rope at movie premieres. You saw them inside their fabulous homes.
And of course, at the award shows. There is no better way to bring in the new year than with a huge, glitzy, glamorous award show like the 54th Annual Golden Globe. And hello, everybody. I am Joan Rivers and we are live. Okay, Melissa, who have you got there now? Mom, I am here with Kelsey Grammer, one of my favorites.
By the late 90s, the red carpet is being televised. It's become as big as the awards themselves. Because we changed it. We turned walking into a building into an event. So we actually got to talk to Melissa Rivers, as in Joan Rivers' daughter. She and her mom were both red carpet hosts. They were there talking to celebrities about what designers they were wearing.
And by the way, and who are you wearing was asked out of desperation.
We were live and my mom, she didn't know what to ask somebody. She was like, "Fuck, what am I gonna say?" And we're live and I've run out of anything to talk to this person about. And they were in a beautiful dress. So she said, instead of, "What are you wearing?" She said, "Who are you wearing?"
And that's how that started. So now we are solidly in the "who are you wearing" era, and celebrities and designers are fully interwoven. Every outfit is being scrutinized. Everyone knows who's wearing what, who designed what. And if it didn't look good, Joan and Melissa would be there to call you out on it. They wouldn't let you. They wouldn't let you. No. Cameron Diaz, and she was in Dior by John Galliano. It looks like she was dressed by Martha Stewart's towel department. I think...
I think this is more effective than an IUD. I think this dress is fashion birth control. This red dress looks like a blood clot. Good to wear on like heavy flow days, you know? That's like a Valentino Haute Couture. She looks like an Atlantic City hooker who got a sewing machine for one of her johns and no lessons. Am I wrong?
People can say, how could you say that? And it's so mean. And my mother used to always say, we're not saying anything different than what everyone's saying next to each other on the couch. Anyone who denies that they judge what the people are wearing is a big liar.
Okay, so like we have a lot, a lot of events and we have like a lot of people like Joan and Melissa who are out there ready to shark bite you for every single thing that you wear. Yeah, the fashion police are patrolling. And if you're an actor, this really matters. You don't want to be the butt of a joke. But now it's not so simple to just sign on to be in the warm embrace of Armani. Now, a bunch of other people
of other designers have like caught on to what Armani is doing and everybody's imitating him other people are reaching out to celebrities and they're like oh let us dress you let us dress you let us dress you and so now they're like so many more choices to be made
The business got so huge and there's so many brands and so many options and so many collections that it became a full-time job to keep up with. I mean, these women are working women. They don't have time to go out and go to the shows and see everything and comb through all the look books and make sure it's the right size. If it's not right size, get the tailor there, get it fixed. It's a full-time job. So they hire the person to do it because it's a full-time job.
Okay, well, I know it sounds like this is the end and we're like, ta-da, so the stylist was born. Roll credits. Yeah, exactly. But, but, it will take a little bit longer for the stylist to become the glamorous profession we think of it as today.
All right, so we are now in the era of the stylist. Kind of low-key, behind-the-scenes, celebrities have started asking other people to shop for them and dress them. And, like, where are these people coming from? A lot of them are actually coming from magazines because for photo shoots, you need someone to, like...
pull all the clothes from all the designer showrooms and put them on the celebrity. And that's honestly how a lot of celebrities and stylists met. You know, they'd like style someone for a photo shoot and then the celebrity would turn to them and be like, hey, I like this look you've made. Can you do this for me all the time? Well, look, this is the thing. Any celebrity who's somebody of note
For them to walk, I mean, going to the restaurant with a celebrity is a two to three hour endeavor because they're going to be stopped 10 times for a selfie. This is my friend Jean Yang. She has worked as a stylist for a long time. To try on and get clothing, it's just not an easy thing for them to do because you go into a store, you are photographed, you are being tracked and
Because you now have to do press tours in 10 cities, it is an outrageous amount of looks. It's daunting. Jean started in magazines, and she's been in the business since she styled Keanu Reeves for a press shoot in the 1990s and then developed a very impressive roster, including, as she says, five Batmen. George Clooney, Michael Keaton, Ben Affleck.
Three Spider-Men, Tom Holland, Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield, Robert Downey Jr. Yeah, a lot of other super people. And it's amazing she can just openly say that she styles these people because at first this was like a dirty secret. Like no star was supposed to admit that someone dresses them. It was like supposed to be like an innate skill they had. Like they were glamorous, they're fashionable, they don't need help. These are stylish people. Exactly. But then...
Some stylists started to emerge out of the shadows and take pride in it. The most notable example of this was Rachel Zoe. She had this very distinct look. And I'll tell you some of her clients and you'll summon the look immediately. It was like Lindsay Lohan, Nicole Richie, Paris Hilton, like every boho chic it girl of the early aughts. And Rachel Zoe became a celebrity to the point where she even got her own TV show. I
I'm Rachel Zoe, and I'm a stylist. I find the dresses, the jewelry, then I put it all together and create the ultimate red carpet moment. And this, like, brings us back to where we started. Yes, exactly. The stylist as celebrity. His job is to carefully craft the visual image of his clients. And his career is exploding as a result. So there's the glamour of being a celebrity stylist, but then there's also the job itself. And I think that's where we're at.
And I was curious about what that actually is. So I asked Jean Yang. There are so many things involved in the practicalities of dealing with this job that people have no concept of. It's a business. If you think it's just about style,
you are sorely mistaken. - Like what are the actual, what do you think you spend most of the time doing? - I'd say three quarters of the job is schlepping. It is, it's schlepping. - So just like starting from the beginning,
Let's say celebrity reaches out to you, says like, hey, Jean, I'd really like to work with you. What happens then? So typically it's actually a publicist who will reach out to you and will say, look, this person has this going on. I would go online and I would research everything that that person had ever worn.
And I would see what worked, what didn't work. Most of the people I work with are very busy. They only want me to bring the things that I think would be right for them. And Jean told me that going to showrooms and pulling options that would be right for them is really not as easy as it sounds. People just think we go into the showrooms and have clothing and we can get anything. It's like, no. What you typically do is you have to have the showroom say, okay, it's for so-and-so. Sure. No problem.
of the five things I've pulled, they'll say, Ooh, we're so sorry. We only want this for red carpet. Oh, this is only for award show. And then you maybe only get two of those items. Sometimes you beg and say, Oh, please. I promise you this will be a big moment here. Please. If it would please the court.
And then there's like an additional step because her clients actually, they have to like it themselves. Yeah, I asked about that. Well, I wonder how you kind of get to that point of discovering what they want. It is done in a very baby step manner. Maybe a guy has always been wearing a pair of trainers and, you know, track pants and a T-shirt and they want to up their look. Well, you can't immediately jump into a gorgeous, you know, wraparound Jojen peach suit.
It is really talking and finding out what they want and then trying it on and then looking at the eyes, looking at their, you know, the corners of their mouths. Are they feeling comfortable? But when I look at the client as a stylist, it's your job to see what looks good and
And to feel if they're going to feel comfortable in front of 100 cameras. And they're not just in front of cameras during awards season. It's constant. Yeah, totally. And when celebrities are going on a multi-city press tour, Jean's job is...
is literally to pack their bags for them. I'm like, okay, well, you're going to be in the middle of Russia or you're going to be in the middle of Ireland for this premiere. It's going to be negative 20. So I really recommend that we do this coat. And with this, like you have to have all that. Oh, right. You have to look at the weather. Yep. Weather. And you have to sit there and go, look, you need socks, shoes, bras, whatever.
I would literally have a checkoff list for my assistants when we were packing. It was like, were the seams opened? Were the white stitches taken out of the jacket? Did we have the pocket open for the pocket square? Is there double stick tape? Is there cufflinks? Is there socks for each outfit? It sounds like such a difficult, stressful job. Was it actually fun? Yeah.
Oh, look, it is fun. But it's like a meal when you get to have that delicious meal. If you don't realize that there were hours and hours upon preparation from the person who tilled the soil to the sous chef and the prep people who put that together, then you don't begin to even comprehend what is involved in that beautiful outfit on the red carpet.
Now, what's going on behind the scenes on the red carpet outfits is so leveled up. There's a lot of paperwork now behind the scenes. So many celebrities are being paid, like, anywhere from $250,000 to millions of dollars to wear the clothes on the red carpet. Stars have to, like, sign a lot of contracts and get very specific about what designer they're wearing, how many times they say the designer's name.
It's all very rigorously contracted out. I mean, what you're describing is like an industry that sort of like has grown up and become just like a proper business. There's real money behind it. Yeah. Right. It functions. And I guess what does it mean for the clothes?
Well, if you ask Melissa Rivers... It's boring. That's the thing. Everybody looks the same now. Melissa Rivers says she could never revive the fashion police now because everybody is just, like, too polished. People have been looking a thousand times better, but that also takes the fun out of our job. You know, you miss these celebrities dressing themselves because that's when you got the mistakes.
You know, it was so much more fun because people would make their own decisions. You know, they'd be like, I love this. And you're just like, oh, dear God, you know. But I feel like you and your mom were like the threat that made people get stylists. I mean, do you feel that way? Oh, my God, totally. It's so bizarre. And I run into these stylists and they turn to me. Law Roach literally said to me, I have my career because of you. Yeah.
Because of you guys. Sometimes I wonder if we've released the Kraken. Is the legacy going to be, wow, they changed fashion as a business?
Or is it going to be, oh, dear God, they destroyed it? I think that's yet to be seen. I have to say, though, Jean makes a very compelling defense for the rise of the stylists. Because she says it's not that stylists have made celebrities boring. Stylists have made regular people look more interesting. Look at especially menswear.
To see an alpha male looking guy wearing a pink suit gives any guy permission to wear a colorful suit. It goes without saying that men can have these shortened pants with their ankles showing. It goes without saying that lots of men are wearing nail polish. Now the proliferation of color, the proliferation of styles, it is all permission that was given because of celebrity styling, I'd like to think.
So, Avery, what do you think of the stylist? I mean, I do think having people who know a lot about fashion and not just like what's in and what's hot, but like they know a lot of weird, obscure designers. They know a lot of fashion history. But like having these people on hand dressing celebrities, I think it makes the conversation around clothing more.
way more intellectual and interesting. And people get to, like, learn about fashion history in that way. So it's, like, elevated the conversation around clothing in this way that I, of course, love. No, I see that. I think that there's, like, a little bit of a trade-off because I also sort of recognize...
the kind of claustrophobic tastefulness that Melissa Rivers was talking about, where just like everyone looks pretty good. It's almost like the floor has been raised. And I think that's kind of to be expected. Like when a profession has been professionalized, you're going to see more competence. You're going to see more polish. And you might lose a little something in wackiness, you know? And like if the stylist is bad, you know, maybe it's pretty bland. Yeah, but...
Conversely, if the stylist is good, then you do get some wackiness. You do get some risk. You know, like good fashion doesn't mean boring fashion. No, that is totally true. And I think also we've learned, like, if you wear an outfit that everyone hates, now at least you can just always, like, blame your stylist. Yeah.
That was an episode of Decoder Ring from Slate. It was produced by me, Avery Truffleman, and Evan Chung, who produces Decoder Ring with Willa Paskin, Katie Shepard, and Max Friedman. Derek John is the executive producer. Merritt Jacob is the senior technical director. Thanks for having me, y'all. It was really fun. Only one more episode I'm going to make this year. It'll be out later this month, and then I'm going to disappear and go on book leave. Thanks for listening. Radiotopia.
From PRX.