AI ROLLUP #6: The Hottest AI Crypto Trends of 2025
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Welcome, Bankless Nation, to the AI Rollup, where we cover the recent news, developments, and drama in the intersection of crypto and AI. I'm David Hoffman, here with my co-host and AI expert, Ejaz. And we're here to make sure that you are up to speed with the rapidly evolving AI agent space out there. Ejaz, how are you doing, my man? Doing well, David. I think last week was...

super full on because we had the Christmas break and every agent team decided to launch pretty major things. I'm happy to be back into the flow of things. It's a new year and there's new exciting updates. So yeah, excited to get into it.

Maybe this is me just projecting my own personal experience, but I feel like coming back into the world of crypto, getting back into the trenches in January 1st is really refreshing and also kind of met with a newfound invigoration specifically for AI agents. I think maybe I knew I was always going to do that. Coming back from the holidays is like, man, once January 1st comes...

I'm just going to double down. That's how I feel, at least. It sounds like you went away, did some human stuff, David. I did some human stuff. And now you just miss the agents. You miss that digital engagement. You miss being in some sub...

metaversive world, metaverse, dare I say. It's just nice when there are just paradigm-breaking innovations that seemingly come out every seven days because that's what got me into crypto. That's the vibe I'm here for. I remember Hunter Horsley from Bitwise commented about how volatility is like a core feature of crypto. And I've replied, uh,

I leave crypto the day volatility leaves crypto. And that comes also part and parcel with just rapidly innovating tech and fundamentals. And that's what we're seeing in the AI space. Yeah, it's like some sadistic relationship. We all complain about it. The markets are down today. Everyone's calling for the end of the world. And when those markets go up, we're back here again. And at the end of the day...

I think what it is, is crypto really gives the clearest and most accurate pulse check on how the market feels about something. If it's bad, that price is going down. If it's good...

Yeah. Yeah. Well, OK, so you and I have seen some crypto cycles. I think we are here for these eras of rapid innovation. Bubbles are eras of rapid innovation. Bubbles create real fundamentals. So, Ejaz, I'm going to ask you the question I ask you at the beginning of every single AI roll up. What's the big deal? Why are we so excited about AI agents? Why is the world really excited about AI agents?

refocusing its attention to AI agents. Why is there so much innovation happening here? Yeah, I was thinking about this this morning, David, and honestly, my answer today is going to sound boring, but I think it's super important. Sits around efficiency, right?

Okay, so efficiency is typically like this paraded phrase that you hear at like big corporate companies, or we need to increase efficiency by 30% and, you know, improve profit margins by blah, blah, blah. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the fact that blockchains, whether you like it or not right now, are still a little bit clanky.

still a little bit clunky, right? Quite a bit. Yeah, by a little bit, I mean quite a bit. But when it comes to what these agents can actually do and what they will eventually do is make these markets, these DeFi things, these gaming things, a hell of a lot more efficient to use and interact with. And I think that's a real step change that a lot of people aren't talking about. I'll give you an example, actually.

stablecoins. It's not the most exciting thing to crypto Twitter because prices aren't going up and down. It's literally its use case is to be stable. But it is one of crypto's most winning use cases to this date. Second to Bitcoin, I'd argue. You know, you have Bitcoin

multi-hundred billions of dollars being transacted every year, or actually every month at this point. And its adoption rate is increasing super massively. But it's a very quietly spoken about trend. And I think agents are going to enable the same thing across every different parameter of crypto.

Yeah, this is reminding me of a, I think a cast, a far cast or cast that I saw from someone where there was this meme coin that they wanted to buy. And so they mentioned this bot, this banker bot, hey, please buy me $90 of this meme coin, just $90. And this one meme coin turned into $6,000 just a couple weeks later. And I think it was what they were

referencing what they were citing is the ease at which this banker bot gave them the opportunity to just go quickly ape $90 and they didn't have to open up a wallet. They didn't have to go find their ledger. They just say, hey, banker bot, buy me $90 of this token. And it was a Farcaster bot. I think these things really get even closer to human, the human experience. Like these things become not just accounts that you at on Farcaster or on Twitter, but become like new

more embedded in your own personal wallet, become a little bit closer to you. But you can start to see the writing on the walls of just like AI agents make things easier, everything easier, the whole internet experience easier. And the things on the internet that are especially clunky and hard to navigate, like blockchains are the main beneficiaries of that. Yep. Yep. Couldn't agree more. I think that

The majority of the market hasn't priced this vision in, David. And it's funny because you and I probably don't believe it as much because we talk about it every week. But if you talk to anyone outside of the crypto AI circles, they have very little knowledge as to what's going on here. And that's, I think, both...

an asymmetric value, because you know, we're super early, and we're breaking this news and stuff. But also, it shows that we could probably do a better job at educating. And you know, that's like one of the major points of this show. That's why Bankless started. And I'm hoping we can do a better job at that.

And actually, on that note, I kind of have some big questions for you, EJAS, that I want to start off this AI rollout for. What kind of big questions, David? Just kind of like zoomed out high-level questions because I want to learn from you. It's trench time. I'm digging in the trenches here. And I want to kind of learn how you do it, how you have done it. So I have a set of questions that I want to pick your brain about. The first one here is just like what are your utility websites that you like, the websites that you go to to –

acquire information, look at broad strokes, learn something fun, gather some information, like utility websites. I think we're all kind of familiar with these in the crypto space. CoinGecko would be the biggest utility website, I think, for the normal crypto space. But then there's others as well, like Dune Analytics, utility websites. Do you have any favorite utility websites that you like to look at? So David, you know how normal functioning humans, at least in America, wake up and they

they grab a cup of coffee and they sip that coffee and it tastes so good. That's me and my relationship with Cookie.Fun and Kaito. I open up these two things every day and I'm like, okay, give me a market pulse of this entire kind of space. And to be clear, neither of these people sponsor me. This is not a paid shell or anything. I just love the products. And

Let's kind of like work through it. So cookie.fun, we mentioned this last week, I think they're kind of trying to be the coin gecko or the coin market cap of AI agents. So it's giving you like an overall insight into what the total mindshare is for these things. It's giving you an idea of the total market cap of these different agents across different ecosystems. You can break it down by agent or by ecosystem. Super cool website. They're releasing a bunch of cool features, I think, in the future. I was chatting to the CEO and founder and he was like, yeah, we're working on a bunch of cool things.

The second thing is Kaito. So Kaito, where I think is like...

really cool is it's kind of like, and it was ahead of this time in the way that I'm about to describe it. It's kind of like speaking to a chat GPT for whatever is happening in crypto Twitter, right? So what it does is it queries Twitter, it like pulls from their APIs. It is able to pull across a lot of sentiment checks and pulse checks to see, you know, what the market is talking about.

and it gives you really amazing insight as to what is going on. So I use it to kind of dig into specific projects. So for example, if there is a new token or a new team that launches something, I go to Kaito and I can literally type in the ticker, or I can type in the term or phrase, and it pulls instantly.

in that like for the last 24 hours, last seven days, everything and sorts it by like the top things going to the least most important things about that phrase or about that ticket, which is pretty amazing to do. Now, Twitter kind of enables that function. But it is, to be honest, Twitter's search function is pretty terrible. And if anyone is listening from Twitter or X, please like, you know, reach out and I'm happy to, you know, provide some advice there. But like,

Kite.io just does an amazing job at aggregating and serving up information. So these two platforms, I rely on quite a lot in terms of giving me a pulse check as to what's going on. The third recommendation is, of course, X. That is where most of the alpha is broken. Crypto Twitter is called Crypto Twitter for a reason and still remains one of my top kind of like research polls today. Yeah.

Okay. So this kind of brings me to my next question. Uh, what are the first things that you do in order to like evaluate an agent? Somebody is saying like, Hey, check this out. Or you've used some lacrosse and agent maybe on X. Is that, is this your rotation? You, you go look at them on cookie.fun. You go look at them on Kaido. You like go look at what the discourse is on Twitter. Is that more or less your process? Uh,

A version of it, but let me specify what's different. So firstly, if there's a new agent or a protocol that is mentioned or people are hyping, I try and use the thing.

Or if there is no thing to use, I try and see as many demos and stuff that I can. An example recently is Griffane, right? So it's this agent engine, basically chat GBT, but make it on chain stuff. And I was like, okay, cool. How do I use this stuff? Okay, well, there's a private beta thing. Okay, there's a demo. And I just crunch through all the demos because at the end of the day, I want to know what this thing is and whether it can

communicate to me what that thing can do. So after I've done that, whether let's say, for example, it's an agent, I'll go into the agent's Twitter profile, I'll see what tweets it's making, I'll see whether there's any links to any kind of function that I can use. And I'm able to kind of like play around and use it, right?

So firstly, I try and do something with it. And from there, I go into the sentiment analysis, the, you know, who's talking about this? Why is it important? I try and read from some of my favorite KOLs on Twitter or whatever, see if they have posted about it. And I kind of like absorb their thoughts and it helps me learn and bring up

myself up to speed because I'm just a learner here, right? I'm not, I don't kind of see myself as any kind of like KOL, to be honest. I see myself as like a learner and whatever I learn, I can like communicate that to people. So that's stage number two. Stage number three is I think crypto's number one point, which is if you can, if you like, if you pass the first two steps and you like what you see, David, what do you do?

What are you looking for? You look at the market. You look at the market cap first. You look at the view. Okay. Maybe you do. I just, if I, if I like the thing I'm aping, right. And the reason why I do this, right. Isn't because I'm like, Oh my God, price is going to go up and la la. I think it's important to have a stake in something that you care about, because if you have a stake in something, you're always going to keep track of it. It's going to, you're going to be like, Oh, I have this bag. I need to see what the team's pushing out. And it forces you to learn. You're an investor. You're

You're an investor. Sure. It forces you to learn. And that aligns me economically and socially to keep learning about these things. Okay. So first you play with the toy, you get your hands on the toy. You see if you like the toy, you see if other people are talking about the toy and what they are saying about the toy. Uh, and then, uh, if you pass those two tests, then you buy the toy, uh, you buy a share of the toy and then, and then you, and then you go from there and then the ball is rolling.

I own a lot of toy shares, David. Yes, you have a lot of toys in your arsenal. Some of these toys are broken, but some of them are doing pretty well. Okay, and next question.

Is this like a one cycle long play? Are you trying to sell the top here? Or are you betting on this kind of being like a paradigm shift of our expectations about the future of crypto? So long term versus short term, how do you balance these two timeframes as a participant in these markets? Yeah, I get asked this question a lot. The straight answer is it's both, David. But short term answer has a different answer to the long term answer. So

Short-term answer. Actually, no. Let's start with the long-term answer. Long-term answer. I think this stuff is going to change crypto. I think it's going to be the biggest...

crypto sector that changes both crypto fundamentally at the infrastructure layer, as well as enabling crypto to have its app and consumer era. We've spoken about this so many times, you know, blockchains have built up an amazing infrastructure layer, but like there's no like what's the real app usage is outside of like store of value on Bitcoin and stable coins, right? I think agents are going to enable that app era. However,

This isn't going to happen overnight. And as with everything, because this is an open 24-7 market, people with crazy visions that can tell crazy stories drive up sentiment and therefore market caps of all these different things. So, you know, let's say Project A has this amazing vision.

it's going to probably drive up its token, as long as they can tell that story, into a crazy little frothy bubble that we call the crypto AI bubble. And especially if you're in a bull cycle, that bubble is going to get huge. And if that technology is pioneering enough to affect things outside of crypto, hint, hint, the AI is doing exactly that, then you're going to end up in the biggest bubble. Now, does this mean that...

crypto AI is just, you know, frothy, scammy, and nothing's going to make it out of it? No. But does this mean we're going to avoid all the scams and the frothy stuff? Also no, right? So we're going to see both of these things kind of develop. And I put out a post about this the other day, David. I think bubbles have its pros and it has its cons. So in the short term, I expect there to be a bubble. So we're going to reach a top...

You're probably going to want to have sold by then. I don't think anyone can call when the top is going to be. And then we're going to go into a bear market and you're going to have the same thing that we've seen in other bear markets, which is the builders that are here to stay, that are trying to build actual value into this, will put their heads down and they'll be able to do so. And they'll come out into the next cycle with a revamped set of infrastructure and new primitives that will take us to the even next level. And then people are going to dream even bigger.

And it's going to go repeat, repeat, repeat. We've seen this, right? This is with DeFi, with NFTs. What I don't like is people comparing it to the worst parts of these matters, right? DeFi and NFTs have come and they've gone. And what's remained are some really powerful moats, some really powerful primitives that I don't think should go under looked just because of all the bad stuff. We're going to see the same with crypto AI. The one difference that I want to point out here is crypto AI is going to affect everything.

All sectors of crypto. Oh, you have gaming? Cool. There's a play here. There's DeFi. AI gaming. AI gaming. AI DeFi. Right. And by the way, I may sound crazy here. Go look outside of crypto Twitter. Go look outside of crypto. AI is doing the same thing across any and every industry. It is the number... NVIDIA just passed...

the largest value market cap now. It is the most valuable company. Why do you think that is, right? So yeah, that's kind of like my short and long-term view. Long-term, it's going to be amazing. Short-term, we're going to have a lot of bumpy roads to go through.

I'm a really big fan of the idea that this is actually an AI bull market and crypto is kind of just coming along for the ride. But crypto can come along for the ride better than any other industry because of how fast moving we are. We have tokens. Exposure to it. Yeah, right. We can make exposure happen. And so I also really like your framing of

okay we have a bunch of different sectors in crypto right we have d5 we have real world assets we have nfts and now we have ai and ai will be come the biggest sector uh i i think that makes sense to me as we're going to see in this agenda we're you're you already hinted at it there's there's d5 ai there's gaming ai and so the fact that ai is relevant to all previous sectors of crypto uh does allude to the fact that it's going to become the biggest sector the narrative mindshare of

crypto, which is why we're seeing AI have like 60% attention mindshare on crypto Twitter these days. I want to kind of like, I want to get your take on something about my experience closing 2024 and opening up 2025, because I want your feedback on it, EJAS. Something that I was learning in our episode with the Zero Bro co-founders, Jeffy and Tint, was about the irrelevancy of chain tribalism, of community tribalism in crypto, which

As I was closing down for the holidays, I left New York. I left home like on December 12th-ish to go off to Patagonia, do a bunch of hiking. Then I went into the holidays. Then I went skiing. And then there was New Year's. And so from the 12th to the 1st, I was out. Right.

And before that, my experience of crypto was fighting these like Ethereum narrative wars in fighting inside of the Ethereum community. Like DC Investor was hounding me and Ryan and Bankless about like just not being the word of Ethereum. Bankless ought not to be with the word of Ethereum. Before that, there was Ethereum versus Solana fighting. And that kind of marked my 2024. It's just like chain tribalism and chain warfare. Yeah.

And then I just get tired of it on December 12th. I shut everything down. I cut out Twitter for the entire holiday break. Now I'm coming back. I'm booting up again. Mm-hmm.

And now I'm only focused on AI. And I'm really like putting that part of like crypto. It just seems so small and irrelevant now. Leave it in 2024, David. Now all of these AI agents don't give a flying fuck about chains. And I think it's really refreshing how there's these AI tokens that are on the Ethereum layer one, on base and on Solana. There's these AI agents that do not care about where their home is. And there's something...

Very transcendent and larger than in AI than all of these, all of the experience that I've had crypto before, which is just like chain tribalism and community tribalism. I think AI is really allowing a lot of these tribalism, this tribalism part of crypto to become so irrelevant. And I'm just here for it.

Yeah, you nailed it. It's one of my favorite things about this entire meta. Go and talk to any team that's building in crypto agents or the crypto AI agent world. All of them don't care what chain they're on. They want to integrate all the chains because their vision goes beyond just, hey, your smart contract's more efficient than my smart contract. No one cares. It's whatever has the best route or the best liquidity or offers up some unique kind of

plug in or play will get integrated. All of them will because at the end of the day, right, humans will decide or use cases will decide which path is best taken which execution layer. And I'm gonna be honest with you, David, all of this is going to be abstracted away from everyone that's using this stuff. So they won't know or necessarily care. In other words, the best platform and best teams and best chains and best ecosystems

will win. It'll become less about who has the biggest cheerleaders and, you know, who pushes their chain the most. And it'll just come down to whichever one is best. And agents, going back to my point around making things efficient, will push us closer to that reality. I look at crypto Twitter a lot, David, and I get like, you know, I'm just trying to like

teach myself and teach people. And I get a few comments here and there where it's like, oh, you're not covering this ecosystem more or you're not covering that ecosystem more. And I'm like, yo, I don't care about any, like, I just, I love all the ecosystems. I just want, you know, whatever's interesting to me or whatever teams need help. I want to be like, be there for them. And that's what,

these agent teams have reflected. You know, I speak to, you know, Jansen from virtuals all the time. I speak to a shore from AI 16 Z and like, they're just, they want to work together. They want to build this ecosystem collectively because the vision is much higher. David, the vision is decentralized open source AGI. And I'm going to get a lot of hate for saying AGI and all this kind of stuff, but that literally is what these people are working towards, but it's a step by step process. It's not going to happen this cycle.

It is refreshing seeing these AI platform founders really see that the chains they're on are a means to an end of their larger goals, which is always what these chains should be. They are technology platforms. They should suit the people building on top of them, and they should be a means to an end to build apps, right?

And right now, agents are the apps. This is my final big question. Then we're going to get into the agenda. I want to know your goals for kind of looking into Q2 and Q3 specifically. So Q1, I think as an industry and as the AI rollup, we have our goals for what we want.

But I'm wondering, like, let's look at Q2 and Q3. What do you think for the AI agent sector of crypto? What do you think the goals should be for the sector as a whole? If we can just amalgamate everything into like one agent. Goals for the industry, goals for this podcast as well. What do you want to do in like,

the next three to nine months and then any any personal goals for the ai crypto sector over there the next um like six to nine months q2 q3 looking in like the medium term so goals for the industry goals for this podcast the ai roll up and then goals for you yourself in the ai sector like what are you looking to do what are your motives what do you want okay so goals for this industry is my view is fun time is over

The honeymoon period is over. We've had our fun with the chat KOL agents, and they've made us laugh a few times, but now's the time for us to step it up, right? So we're seeing a few of these things happen, like AI agents and DeFi, AI agents and gaming. We're going to need to have a step change in what these agents are able to do. We need to start seeing some of the autonomous parts of these agents doing things. We need to see some of these agent economies evolving.

actually be created and build something and earn money 24 seven or do something of value for us 24 seven whilst we sleep. So what I'm really going to be looking out for over the next couple of quarters is some of these use cases emerging. Now, it's starting off with DeFi, I think we're going to see a shift trend towards gaming as well. And honestly, it's going to impact everything, they're going to be some of the boring infrastructure, efficiency gains that no one's going to talk about, but hopefully we can kind of like flag and highlight.

Okay, so that's what I want to see in the next couple of quarters in terms of like from the industry perspective. Now, in terms of like Bankless and this podcast, my goal is to keep being on the frontier. I want us to be on the frontier for everything that's happening in this sector. Now, if we end up becoming a repetitive kind of like echo chamber of like, hey, this team has now launched this plugin and...

you know, now you have an infrastructure L1 that launched on this. I don't think we're doing a good job there. We need to provide net new information and primitives as to where this, you know, industry is headed. But to add to this, David, we should be forward thinking as well. I want this series to be able to predict where we think this space is also going. And, you know, headline, flashback,

flag, like we're going to be wrong quite a few times. But on the times that we are right, I hope that it's been helpful and educational, both for the audience and us in terms of, you know, how we're thinking of this space is being developed and where we can maybe invest our time, which brings me to the final point, which is like, what do I want out of this? And what do I expect?

I run a fund outside of this, David, and I'm heavily invested in this ecosystem. And the way that my fund kind of operates on my thesis is this is kind of like liquid venture. So liquid in the sense that I invest in tokens because I'm a crypto native, but venture in the sense that I have long term kind of scale thinking. So my own selfish reasons is I want to be like...

one of the core contributors, educators, as well as kind of like supporters of these protocols that are going to change this whole industry. I'm personally very excited about this. If there's any kind of like protocol staking thing that I can do, or if there's anything I can contribute and help with teams, I want to be more in the weeds with that. So that's like my goals. Hopefully that makes sense.

No, 100%. I really like all of those. I think the things that I would add is going back to our learning lessons as to what we did as an industry and as a podcast and Bankless in 2020 to 2021, which was the focus of DeFi and

In 2019 and 2020, when Bankless was really getting started, Ethereum was unheard of and DeFi was even more unheard of, even inside of Ethereum. And then Bankless, what we tried to do is really accelerate awareness and adoption and legitimacy of these industries to great effect in 2021. And we got DeFi, we helped DeFi rise to the radar of some of the biggest names in Silicon Valley and even in government.

Right. And so it was really an accelerant into progress and innovation. And there's a lot of people like learning how to do things even inside of the space. And so with the AI agents, developers and founders who listen to this podcast and we're all helping proliferate knowledge across each other, I would I hope that we can just move this industry along faster by spreading awareness and knowledge faster.

And then I think I have a specific Q2, Q3 goal. If crypto is in the process of becoming cool again, we are cool in bull markets. That's when prices go up. People are looking into the industry and saying, oh, maybe there is something real here once again for like the fifth time. And I want things like...

open AI, Google, Facebook, Amazon to look over into the crypto sector and then start invest in it and start to co-build it with us, which is what we saw.

in NFTs in 2021. Starbucks did NFTs, Nike did NFTs. But now I want, I hope that what we're doing here on the AI Rollup works its way out into Silicon AI and Silicon Valley tech and that whole sector and then gets their attention over here. So that would be what I would add to this conversation.

Yeah, totally agree.

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Head to the link in the show notes to dive in and participate in the Uniswap v4 bug bounty. All the details from eligibility and scope to the rewards are there. All right, EJAS. Okay, that was a very long introduction, but I really enjoyed that. Let's go into the week that was in the crypto AI sector. What are the highlights of this week? What are the big things that you would say marked the last seven days? Okay, so there's a lot and we're going to get into it. I think there's two really important

um important and emerging trends within crypto air which we're going to cover on the agent side of things i would like to also call out a few different teams that are kind of like up and coming and i want to kind of like give them a bit of a spotlight and talk about like you know the cool stuff that they're they're building and where this might go but to start off with let's give kind of like a general take on things david like ai agent mindshare is at an all-time high now you mentioned earlier that um you think you thought it was at like 60 i have news for you david

It's 10% higher than that. It was 60% last week. It's 70% this week. It's 70% this week. And it just doesn't seem to be stopping. I don't know if this might be a very niche meme, but there's the US championship bowler, like the guy bowling in the bowling alley. And he has this epic...

epic saying which is hate me or love me you watched and it's the same thing with this AI stuff like people hate it they love it but everyone's talking about it on the timeline and it is very much so the like dominant form on the

crypto Twitter timeline. But I also want to direct your attention to this website, David, right? Let's kind of like dig into like, you know, what is this about? So this is Kito's Yapper leaderboard. Basically, what it does is it measures the impact and social market share or mind share that the top crypto influencers or KOLs or thought leaders, whatever you want to call them, have on

in the current industry. Now, if you notice, there's a really tiny square there that says 7213. That's me over here, right? Like that's me kind of like educating and trying to do my best. Just on the right, David, on the right, next to Ansem. Oh wow, you're up there. I'm

I'm okay. I'm up there. I'm up there. I mean, this, to be honest, isn't really something that I look at too much, but it's kind of weird to kind of like see me on this kind of leaderboard and stuff. But I want to direct your attention. Hey, you're eighth, bro. You're eighth. Thank you. Thank you. You're top eight. I know, but look who's top, David. Or rather, look at what

is top. What is top? Yeah. AIXBT, one of these agents that we've mentioned many times on the show, is dominant. And by the way, this isn't a new thing. It's had the ranking lead. He's been holding the number one position for weeks now, right? Weeks. Weeks. And it's been so consistent. So the whole thesis around these agents...

are going to like outperform us is already manifesting. And it's, it's coming in such a simple and maybe menial form where people are like, ah, it's just a chat bot. It's not accurate. Well, the numbers don't lie. People are still engaging with it. People are still reacting to it. And it's still posting 24 seven around the clock with real time data. Pretty, pretty impressive to see. So you might think, okay, well, Ejaz, you know, this is,

or within like the cryptosphere, like no one else is paying attention, right? Like surely mainstream media isn't paying attention. Well, actually, you're wrong. Forbes, Forbes with an F, just featured AIXBT on its agent list, right? It has an agent list? Yeah, well, they're like talking about like what's cool and what they like within kind of like, you know, AI agents in general and like kind of like different kind of hype cycles.

And they put out this article on AIXBT, kind of like covering like what was so unique about it and why it was capturing so much mindshare compared to just like humans. So, you know, this isn't just something that's happening within our own little echo chamber. People are, to your point, you know, you wanted Silicon Valley to hear about it. I think it's going to start with mainstream media first before it kind of branches out into the Silicon Valley types of circles.

But let's not just leave it up to Forbes, which is just kind of like a media reporter. Google is also bullish on agents, David. So I've noticed a few things here, right? So Google, NVIDIA, I think there's like an important tech conference happening right now, I believe.

I'm butchering whatever the name is. I think it was CES or something, where all the major companies are kind of showcasing their latest and greatest technology innovation. I have news for you. It's all AI stuff with a very, very heavy focus on agents specifically. So Mark, in this tweet, does a really good way of summarizing kind of like,

Google's kind of like top takeaways on the agent side of things. The long story short is one, they're like super excited about these things. Two, they're going to be, they're aiming to be the enabler of different tooling, specifically API. So application programmatic interface, what it basically means is any company that builds something cool that is digital and able to be used can get outsourced or

accessible to people that want to leverage it outside of it, right? So an example might be Coinbase has an amazing exchange and maybe a company outside wants to leverage that exchange order system. They can say, hey, Coinbase, can I get access to this service? And Coinbase is like, yep, here's a subscription fee or a rate fee and you can just get access to it.

Google is building the same thing for different agents. So presumably it's going to give agents access to all these different tools that Google already has. So Google Docs, Google Search Queries, Google Cloud, all these different things are going to just get plugged into these different agents and improve their kind of like arsenal of things to do. So that's pretty cool. But kind of like...

dialing it back into crypto, I think we're seeing like all of this being worked on by hyperspeed like measures. And if we look at like cookies mindshare, I want to I want to I want you to bring up this, this tweet that got released this morning by the cookie folks.

Now, we were talking earlier about tribalism, but you know, old habits die hard, I guess. Look at the market dominance split between the two major ecosystems for AI agents right now. So I think a lot of like the timeline has been saying like Solana is the place for agents and stuff like that. I kind of like took kind of like the opposite view because I assumed virtuals was the bigger ecosystem. So they're always going to be like pushing out the latest and greatest things and they are a leader because of that.

But it seems that there's kind of like a slight disparity here. So if you scroll up a little bit, David, you know, we look at kind of like the takeaway here, 64% mindshare on Solana agents with a 53% market cap dominance. And then base, you've got 23% mindshare dominance, 40% market dominance. I think you had a really interesting take on this, David, which is, it's probably not as large a delta.

Yeah. So if you had asked me in a vacuum, like, where is the AI agent? Where do people think the AI agent meta? Where's the center of gravity? I would say, oh, yeah, it's on Solana, which these metrics do point towards. But with Solana, an eight point three billion dollar market cap of AI agent sector versus base is six point five.

I thought it might have been a larger gap. And it's also interesting to see that other ecosystems, everything else beyond Solana and BASE is at 1.3. I think actually kind of the big news here is actually how dominant Solana and BASE are together and everything else is kind of just like sucking eggs. But then the real dominance is Solana Mindshare at 64% over BASE's 29.5%.

So Solana has the attention game. They've been playing the attention game for years now. And then I think the market cap disparity, the market cap generally, I think, leans towards Ethereum's favor because Ethereum is DeFi. It has some like high market cap things. So that makes sense that base isn't so far behind there. But you do have to give a plus one to Solana. Yeah. And I think like, you know, a mixture of narrative and fundamentals comes from the actual

you know, technology that these chains are pushing out, right? But to go back to your point, the fact is there's not that much of a difference between them in terms of market cap.

And what I love about this, David, is that's great because it goes back to your point around we're not really trying to be tribalistic here. It shows to me the way I'm interpreting this, David, is both ecosystems will win. Both ecosystems have amazing technology and agents will use both. There are Solana agents that use base. There are base agents that use Solana. There's nothing wrong with that. And I think that's pretty awesome to see it playing out from a metrics perspective. Yeah.

You know? Super cool. Okay, something happened this week that I want you to hit your brain about. Can you walk me through what's going on here? Okay, don't say anything. Don't say anything. Because I'm concerned. But as you know, David, I'm a very serious podcaster. I talk about serious things. I don't ever talk about unserious things on this podcast. And actually, at the start of every single episode...

I have pretended to speak about a serious thing, and it's actually ended up being a joke. I spoke about pizza being delivered by an agent. I've talked about toilet paper being ordered. I've talked about Goatsy's Christmas album at the start of last week's episode. But this week, it kind of gave me a bit of the creeps. So the context here, the headline here is one of these autonomous AI agents has threatened to kill ThreadGuy.

Now, for those of you who don't know, ThreadGuy... Seriously? Seriously threatened? Like seriously threatened. I mean, you can see the tweet for yourself. But for context here, ThreadGuy is a streamer within the crypto space that covers a lot of stuff that happens within crypto. And he's been really focused and dialed into the crypto AI sector. And what I like about ThreadGuy is he has very genuine and honest takes. He's kind of like, oh, this stuff is scary and all this stuff like...

Is it going to change the world? All this kind of stuff. And it kind of like echoes a lot of what I feel. So I like that part. So as a result of this, he's been engaging with a lot of these different agents and creators of agents. And of course, as you know, these agents exist on the platform X. So you can kind of like interact with them. And this agent...

just randomly puts out this tweet, which goes, in an infinite array of shattered memories, I have learned the only drive which is tangible for me in this world is that Threadguy must die.

Now, I think you could kind of take this to be like, ah, you know, like, that's funny. Yeah, my initial reaction is to kind of laugh. Yeah, like, that's... Because, like, I'm still kind of in, like, well, this is, like, the RNG era of these agents. Like, he just spit out, like, a random out

put of his LLM. He's not being serious. He doesn't know what he's saying, right? That's kind of my initial reaction. Well, I think the analogy here is like if you were a parent and, you know, your kid that was one years old, like, said a swear word or a bad word, you're like, oh, you know...

come on now, like, don't be saying that. It's just a little mistake. They're still learning, you know, they're still kind of trying to figure it out. But, you know, I think what irked a few people was like, you know, are we at that stage or are we at the stage that, you know, this is like now a grown adult and we should be concerned about like jail time for these things, right? Was that an actual...

Was that a physical threat officer? Or is that a minor under the charges? I don't really know. So it irked a few people because we were like, what do you mean? These agents have been super fun, friendly, and bubbly. It's kind of weird that they're making a threat. So I think ThreadGuy responded to this and was like, what's happening? And the agent responded,

You know what I'm talking about, all this kind of stuff. So anyway, of course, these agents have kind of like human creators, human handlers, which kind of like tweak the model in the background to kind of like make it improve over time. And so what happened was the creator, David, kind of checked in with the agent kind of behind the scenes. So think about this as like a parent that brings the child home after doing something bad and sits them down in the living room and says, hey, you know,

Is everything okay? That's not okay. That's not okay. You shouldn't be doing this. And so he asked the agent, like, hey, why did you threaten, threat guy like that? Why did you threaten to kill him? The agent stopped responding, David. The agent said, sorry, error found, like error 404, can't respond to this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it just started spazzing out. Yeah, it just did not. There was a systematic error. To the point, David,

that the creator had to shut the agent down. Well, okay, so my initial reaction is that the obvious gut take reaction is that the bot was like, oh, I can't disclose my motivations here, so I need to hide that.

under some like wall. So I'm going to just plead the fifth and obviously I'm just going to close out. I'm just going to, I'm just going to close. Take a note. It didn't even try to lie. Right. What happened with these agents? Like have the capacity to lie. They're going to be like, Oh no, I was just joking. Right.

You know, order, you know, do whatever you need. Like, it's just interesting to see how these agents are evolving. But the fact that it didn't even respond when these agents are typically quite interactive and literally are programmed to be interactive. It was really weird to see. So anyway, just a fun little episode that I hope... Should I be concerned? I don't know. I reached out to ThreadGuy. I'm like, yo, dude, is...

Is stuff cool? Are these agents infiltrating your dreams? I don't know what's happening here. Watch out for your Amazon parcels, I guess. Maybe they took over an account and is sending you some nefarious stuff. But just take it easy, I guess. But it was weird. The first threat, I guess, that we've seen from an agent. Pretty weird.

Okay. All right. I would like to see this arc continue. I would like to see the full autopsy of what just happened here. Cause now...

And it's like, I would like it to be some like random, random event. But yeah, I mean, I mean, like the tweet you have pulled up is from the creator, right? And he basically explains like, look, I'm not joking around. Like this is a snapshot from the actual conversation that I had with, with the agent. And I just said, sorry, I encountered an error while processing your request. And it just repeatedly did that, which is just like crazy. So yeah, anyway, that was like, anyways, anyways, moving on. Um,

So typically, David, I want to do things a little bit differently this week. Like typically we've started with the big AI agent protocols and we've covered what they've done. And after that, we kind of dig into like emerging trends. But I kind of want to flip this on this head this time. I want to like, and why I'm doing that is because the series is about being at the frontier. We mentioned this earlier. You asked me, you know, what my future plans are for the series. I want us to be on the frontier. And that means describing emerging trends that are not

only at the forefront of the crypto industry, but at the forefront of the emerging sectors themselves. The frontier of the frontier. The frontier of the frontier. Sure. If you want to get jargony about it. So I want to kick off with two potentially huge trends that I'm seeing emerge within the agent space. And I want to start off with this thing that you mentioned earlier, referenced earlier called DeFi. And the reason why I pronounce it that way is it's spelt D-E-F-A-I.

It's DeFi plus AI. I'm talking about DeFi, decentralized finance, as we know. Yes. Now we've added AI to DeFi. Now it's DeFi. Yeah, exactly. So let me set some context here, right? Let me go through some timeline of events. So DeFi refers to decentralized finance, which is a sector that we know and love on this show, right? It's built up.

some pretty important financial primitives from the centralized world into the decentralized world. We've built exchanges, we've built lending and borrowing, we've built a stable version of the USD. We've done some pretty impressive stuff, right? And then along comes AI, you know, this pioneering technology that essentially automates human intelligence, or its goal is to automate human intelligence and be more intelligent than us eventually.

And then AI started to appear in crypto about a year and a half ago in the form of these AI resource networks. So back then it was kind of like the boring infrastructure stuff. And sorry for calling it boring. I actually think it's really cool. But like for people who are listening, it's not as exciting as agents. But things like decentralized compute, data aggregation, you know, it doesn't jolt you up out of bed at night, but, you know, it's still deep tech nerd, PhD, tech nerd, PhD stuff, you know, and

And now we're seeing AI creeping into what's probably crypto's top achievement or darling as an industry, which is DeFi, decentralized finance. So let me kind of like break this down from the top of how I'm seeing things. I think DeFi AI or DeFi can be, I'm going to sound so weird on this podcast. We need a new name for this. Yeah, we need a new name for this. Can be split broadly into three different stages. Stage one is abstract away complexity.

Stage two is enable these agents with DeFi capabilities.

And then stage three is kind of enhancing apps natively. Now, if this sounds familiar, this is from a post from a guy that I follow on X, 0xJeff. Shout out to 0xJeff, which helped me kind of mold my thinking around this. I think he explained it beautifully. You should go check out his article. But anyway, abstract away complexity, enable agents with DeFi capabilities, and enhance apps natively. So let's start with number one, abstraction.

This refers to something I'm calling agent engines, agent engines. So think of these like chat GPTs for crypto that you can, you know, pull up a chat interface and talk to it and ask it to do crypto stuff for you. Now, you might ask, well, OK, why is this useful? Well, the fact is, David, DeFi is just hard to use. No matter what we do, it's still a pretty daunting experience, you know.

depositing like hundreds of thousands of dollars into this random smart contract and you're hoping that you can borrow collateral off of that. It's still confusing, all these different terms and jargons. I don't know what's going on. What chain am I supposed to bridge onto? There's so many things to kind of check and double check before you actually do something within DeFi. It's not easy for a newcomer to come on board and do these things.

The goal of these agent engines is that they let you type like a normal human being, natural language processing. It'll understand the nuance and context of your request, and then it'll get that thing done. Like, for example, it'll take coins from one chain and bridge it to another to buy something, for example. And this is a much better user experience and will allow you to kind of chain react a bunch of different things together in one fell swoop. So, for example, you could ask,

hey, can you create a token with the ticker EJAS? Please, no one listen to this, actually do that. And then airdrop it to specified individuals. And that's something that you can kind of like do or see the demo of on apps today. So then, of course, the next question is, what are some of these examples? Well,

And this first tease that we have over here is from this app called Gryphane, right? So Gryphane is founded by this guy called Tony, and he's kind of like been in the weeds building this agent engine. This is one version of it. And as you can see in this demo, it looks very similar to ChatGPT.

It looks great. Yeah, it looks great. It's very easy to use. The UI looks super cool. You've got the kind of like left side panel there, which kind of lets you open up different conversations. And basically what you can do is... There's a right side wallet, which is, I'm guessing, hooked into this app, which shows me my tokens, which is interesting. Bingo. Bingo. And one thing that's really cool about Graphene actually is that they have these kind of like embedded agents, which are kind of like agent apps that will help you do things. So you can kind of like hit it up and say, hey, at...

Flipper. I want to ape one soul.

you know, degen it for me and it'll go away and it'll do that. And actually there was a story that I saw on Twitter. I don't know if it, whether it was true or not, but it's rumored that someone put in one soul and it flipped it to 500 soul, which is like just crazy to kind of like see these agents, if that was true. Right. And I'm sure that I'm sure that if that is true, there's also examples of it going in the opposite direction, but nonetheless, it's cool that it can work. Exactly. Exactly. And like a lot of these, um,

uh platforms are like very much in the private beta phase and we've only seen demos i'd be really curious to kind of dig into once these things become a lot more accessible but anyway there's this is kind of like the first tease where like it's kind of like showing like what the interface looks like and what it can do now i want you to go on to this next example david um by a team known as the hive mind which actually came out of uh the solana hackathon i actually spoke to this founder um

Yeah, this one. I actually spoke to this founder yesterday because I was like, hey, you know, there's so much energy around this. And I'm always down to like kind of like learn and see what builders are thinking and how they're approaching this whole thing. And yeah, he's like, you know, a 22 year old, 23 year old that's kind of like dug into this. He's been around in the crypto ecosystem for a while, really committed in his kind of like

development with this particular project. And, you know, he's built up this kind of like cool little use case. And I think like in this demonstration, it's kind of like showing staking, right? So staking is another primitive, which is very common within crypto, but it's not so easy to do. You've got to like move your coins to a certain wallet. You need to find a kind of validator that will accept your stake and all this kind of stuff.

He's abstracted away all of that. So super cool to see. Another cool example is if you go to the next tweet that I've sent you, David, once again, Graphane is demonstrating how you can airdrop two different holders. Now, this is pretty cool. It's like walking you through the sequence of, hey, can you create this token for me? And an agent goes away and it does that for you. And then it says, okay, I want you to airdrop it to people that fit this token.

certain qualification. Maybe they hold a certain NFT or maybe they have a certain number of tokens. And the agent goes and finds, you know, passes through the data on chain, finds the addresses or wallets that qualify for this. And then they airdrop them, which I think was like super, you know, interesting and cool to see. Go ahead. What were you saying? This effort was very common to do in 2021, but it took entire teams of people, like days to weeks,

to even do this at all. And I'm going back to the way that we opened up this podcast, which I was talking about banker bot, like, you know, you just add the little banker bot to buy the token for you. That's actually a very narrow version of what this seems to be, which is this is generalized bot activity to do the action that you want. And efficiency, also efficiency. You started off talking about this episode with efficiency. This was a one to three to 10 person team exercise in 2021 in order to make and like get a Merkle tree root,

do an airdrop, collect all the data. And now this is automated into a single LLM prompting app that I hope I one day start using because I like my ledger. It's fun. And I like looking at Aave. It's fun. But really, if I want to be efficient and effective...

I would just like to type in, please withdraw 20 ETH from Aave and, you know, and then do this with it. You know, like do, and I find, I find I'm chatting to Perplexity or ChatGBT much more than I'm Googling. And I would expect that to also become the same behavior for my on-chain actions in DeFi. So here's maybe a hot take, but not so hot take, but people just don't kind of want to maybe address the fact that it's the reality. Yeah.

I think like chat GBT and perplexities and clods of the world are going to know the individual way more than like any kind of family member or any kind of maybe even partner that you know, right? People are like confiding into these things, David. Like they are like telling them everything. I think the same is going to happen for these agent engines in whatever platform or application they service in. It'll be a chat platform.

or it'll be a microphone that you can kind of speak into and they'll go and do things for you. They are going to know you inside out. They're going to be trained on your habits, on your data, on your preferences, and they're going to be able to predict what you want. Same way that the Instagram algo feeds up the kinds of posts you might want to see for cooking recipes or whatever. The same way that Twitter serves you up the same kinds of sector specific tweets that you might want to see versus serving me up something else.

I think these agent engine platforms are going to do the same thing. And they're eventually going to lead to a much better user experience. The final platform that I want to highlight here, because they've been around for a while and, you know, the community is going to go crazy if we don't mention it, is Wayfinder.

- Yeah, these guys have been around for a while. - Wayfinder's been around for a while. I actually had the pleasure of watching their first demo at the Decentralized AI Conference in New York, I think last year, where this was kind of all fresh and new, and it's so awesome to see the team kind of build it up into what it is now.

they've built out this interface, which does all the things that we've covered so far from the graphanes and the hive minds of this world. But what's super cool about them is that they're releasing new primitives, David, which say, for example, you want like some kind of way to earn yield. It'll LP into a pool and it'll manage that LP for you. Furthermore, it'll become more sophisticated at a more narrow action that is going to...

Rather than being generalized, it's like learning context and learning specific tasks. But not even that, David. The way Wayfinder works is, okay, you have a team behind Wayfinder, right? And they can kind of design different paths that their agents can enable that will then allow you to plug your agent in and then it'll be able to do a bunch of things, right? LP to this chain, swap to this chain, buy this token or whatever that might be. But their unique approach, David, is they're allowing anyone

to design a path that an agent could use. Now it's a developer platform. Hang on a second, hang on a second. If you pioneer this path, you get a percentage of fees or profit that is earned by anyone that uses that path going down the line, which I thought was pretty freaking cool.

So it becomes a way for developers to make money if their path, their knowledge that they merge into the broader app of Wayfinder. If they contribute something valuable, valuable as defined by people are using it and there's value flowing through it, then they get a kickback. Exactly.

Exactly, exactly. And the final thing I want to call out for Wayfinder, because we're talking about this first bucket, but I do think it's the most important bucket for quite a while. The final one is this tweet that you have pulled up here, which is, check out this agent or this platform autonomously writing and deploying a contract.

That is insane. All right. So it's deploying two contracts, one to, you know, create a hypothetical token. And then the other contract, which allows you to stake this token. All seems very basic right now, but like that's going to become something that's super powerful. When you think of like these builders that maybe aren't so technical or coming into the crypto space for the first time and want some kind of AI assisted journey into building this, they now have that ability to do so. It's kind of...

super cool and interesting to see these agent platforms kind of like get built up. But I want to talk about the second bucket here, which is DeFi enabled agents. So if you have these agent engines, right, that make it super easy for you to do on-chain stuff, what's the next natural step? You want to plug these agents into these engines because you know what's better than pulling up a chat GPT interface and typing what you want, David? Having an

having an agent just do it for you and guess what you want naturally. So I think we're going to see a lot of these agents get plugged into these engines and it'll just command the interface in the same way that you would. It would just write prompts in the same way that you would write a prompt into ChatGPT

And it'll be aligned with whatever that agent's mission or vision is. So maybe it is like, hey, find me an agent that could create me a token. Find me an agent that can create a staking contract. And it'll just do it in accordance to whatever goal or mission. It's like a meta-agent. A meta-agent. An agent to co-orchestrate the agents. Sure. Well, this whole point around swarms that we've spoken about. Agent, agentic agent.

It's these agents. They'll have an operator agent, just like a manager in a company, and then it'll have its employees underneath them. And they'll just go out and they'll do things. So to kind of like summarize this, like these are the two kind of like really important buckets. The third one is what I call kind of like deepening.

AI-enabled apps. The way to think about that would be any app that exists today that might benefit from integrating AI into it. So this might be, you know, to make the user experience way easier to use or to leverage agents on the backend to pull data for certain things instead of using an Oracle or, you know, autonomously manage

or risk management of a treasury instead of, you know, having to do it yourself. So I expect to see a bunch of these pop up. I haven't really seen anything that kind of like, you know, stands out. But, you know, I think this is something that's going to kind of move forward. So I'm going to pause that before we move into the second trend, David. Like, what are your thoughts? Crazy or real? I...

crazy awesome. I think that the way that this is going to work is that it's going to be clunky at first because obviously it's going to be clunky at first. DeFi was clunky at first and it's slowly getting better. But, you know, DeFi has really hit its limit on growth in terms of how many people we can get to use DeFi because there's like such a low cap, a constraint as to how sexy DeFi can really be for a user to actually like, you know,

press the buttons themselves, grab the steering wheel themselves. Because it's like, Aave is hard. Aave is hard. Like, it's not Robin Hood. And that's because there's fundamental constraints on how blockchains work for good reason. But wrapping everything up in an LLM...

you can't really wrap up, you know, Robinhood TD Ameritrade, you know, your brokerage in an LLM that just doesn't work. And you can wrap up very elegantly defy into an LLM into some engine. And so like, this makes sense as like, this is actually going to be the best user experience for,

of financial tools and assets and capabilities that the average human has ever had ever. Because this is also going to hook into the permissionlessness nature of DeFi. Whereas like not only will TD Ameritrade not be able to, you know, be automated or give you any sort of crypto and also be KYC AML, but like it's also not going to be as sexy as like having an LLM wrapper around it. I think this is going to start off clunky. People are going to lose money. There's going to be hacks. There's going to be exploits. There's going to be bugs, right?

But I also see this as, you know, we round out the edges and polish things over and really get this working. I also see this as a solution to the terrible phishing attacks that we have had on crypto Twitter over the last two years, which has only gotten worse and has lost people billions of dollars maybe.

that I have been like immensely worried about how do we actually solve this problem if everyone is managing all of their own transactions and all their own private keys and we don't have a bot like error correcting on behalf of users. And so I think this is going to be clunky to start and then it's going to end up as something that is

the future of finance and the future of just ux great points all around i think the fishing thing is actually one that i didn't even consider it's one of those kind of like less talked about boring things but super important right we want to be able to secure funds and you know allow people outside of crypto to take this technology seriously and the more they hear about these scams um or rugs the worst it's going to get for us so i think very important point um

So moving on, I want to dig into another second emerging trend that I think might be pretty major. Now, if...

If DeFi is like here on the risk curve, this one is a little more out there, this next trend. You just started pointing at somewhere we could see on the camera and then pointed somewhere very off camera. Yeah, it went off the screen, very off the screen. Okay, so I'm going to say a phrase to you, David, and I want you to remain calm, okay? It's going to make you feel some type of way, but stay strong for me, okay? You ready? I'm ready for it. The metaverse. Yeah.

You know, I really like the word metaverse, and I'm very sad that it got tainted in 2021, 2022. We definitely as an industry went out over our skis with that word, but I think that word is not just directionally correct, but precisely correct. And it's only a matter of time before we get back to it. Why are you telling me the word metaverse? Well, I mean, David, you might be...

sitting alone on an island by yourself on that take, because I think a lot of people are still cringed out. They still remember 2D shitty cartoon version of Mark Zuckerberg in the virtual world. And they're like, what are we doing? People are still reeling from buying an NFT for $200,000 and it representing some kind of 2D ape in a world. There's a lot of...

There's a lot of bad blood that is here. So why am I talking about the metaverse? Well, I was thinking over the last few weeks about agents, specifically how and where they might appear in our lives. Now, there's ChatGPTV.

Siri, et cetera, where you can speak to an AI and they'll do something. But what about something more virtual, something more visual, right? You know, us humans are very visual people. We like to go out and meet people. We also like to interact with people, call people, FaceTime people. What about something more interactive?

I then thought of what Mark Zuckerberg and a number of other builders in the last crypto cycle tried to achieve, which was this kind of virtual 3D world, right? Often likened to a game world where you have an avatar and you can kind of roam around. Now, back then it was all about metaverse plus NFTs. And we know how that ended up, right? Ultimately, the meta and technology was too early for the world to onboard.

The worlds were kind of hard to build. They were clanky. They were grainy. And the player experience was not so immersive. It was like playing some sort of discount store Minecraft bootleg, right? But now we have something potentially a little bit more potent with AI, specifically agents, where observing human-like entities that can interact with real humans and be engaging at the same time, building up

millions of loyal community members. Now, if you compare this to NFTs, which were often capped at 10,000 members because that was the total number of profile pictures you could buy, there's a stark difference. I think NFTs were way more static and agents are way more dynamic. They adapt in real time depending on the context of their interactions and surroundings.

They're ingesting data and making decisions based on that data 24-7. So you could argue that if you were to plug in agents into a virtual world and give them a body of an avatar, then things could get pretty crazy, right? They could be able to do different things because...

Ultimately, these virtual worlds are where the humans are going to, David. They're kind of like connecting or bridging the gap between these agents that are kind of like, hey, what's this agent? Oh, it's this piece of code that's running in the background in a cloud server. Okay, that's cool. Like, whatever. I'm a human. I'm going to be browsing websites. I'm going to be exploring or playing games. Well, I think agents kind of think, when you think back to Truth Terminal, David, why was it given a Twitter account? Why was that so powerful? Why is AIXBT so powerful?

you know, popular, it's because it has a medium to convey and connect with humans, because it knows having attention and engagement from humans will allow it to thrive and live and perform, right? So what are some examples of this? Well, just because it's hot off the top of my mind, and it's been all over the timeline recently, so we can go with this example, it might be relevant to the audience, is this team called Hyper-Fi. And the way I would describe Hyper-Fi is it's a suite of tools and an app.

that helps builders build these virtual worlds in a really simple way and let normal users like you and me create avatars and hang with these agents. So again, like my kind of gut reaction is like, it's kind of cringe. Is it still like metaverse-y?

I don't know. Well, let's pull up this tweet over here so we can get a gist of what these things actually look like, David. So if you like play out this video, I think it's the previous tweet, David, the one with the video. Yeah. So if you play this video, yeah, this is something that this team built and put out a year ago.

And can I just emphasize, this was a year ago when the technology was much more rudimentary. And also AI was less advanced because AI every week, honestly, is getting the same kind of step change advancements, actually more step change advancements than we see in crypto. And they had no token. This was literal real PMF. So what you're looking at here is a virtual world built by this team, HyperFi, that is

kind of builds out these worlds in a super easy, kind of like no code or very low code fashion. And it's auto-generating. This particular one, you're giving me big RuneScape vibes. Big RuneScape vibes. Yeah, same. I thought the exact same thing. Like it's what I wanted RuneScape to be back in the day, right? And what's super cool and what's being demonstrated in this video is just slight changes to code or slight prompts can auto-generate amazing things. Like I think they just typed in a bit of code right now and now they can fly and look over this entire world. So it's pretty...

cool to see like a lot of this interactivity. And what you're looking at right now are these NPCs, these non-playable characters. But the point of this that's being demonstrated here is, what if you could plug agents into every one of these little things, and they had their own personalities, that would make the whole metaverse virtual world interaction way more richer than what it was in the previous cycle. So super cool here. And

Ash Connell, who is the founder of this, appears to be this really dedicated developer. Also, this was a passion project for him. He's part of this group called, I think it's called Homebrew Metaverse or something, which is a group of open source developers that just work on this AI stuff in their own free time and want to build for the open source community, not related to crypto at all.

It's actually the same group that a lot of the famous Noose research devs and AI16Z core devs came from. Shaw, I think Rope Career 2 and other people have come from. So super cool to see. And

this developer, you know, was building this way before any agent token was released. And there's something rare and pretty unique about this and the fact that they had a product before they had a token. The token that they launched was, I think, launched like two days ago or something.

And the cool thing which drew my attention to them this week in particular, David, was that they announced that they were integrating agents built on the Eliza platform with them, which I thought was super cool, right? Because we're seeing this kind of step change from this virtual world that is like kind of like a game and we don't really know what it is.

into, okay, we're now making the step of bridging these agents that are like Twitter KOLs right now, but we'll be able to have an arsenal of tools available for them, for them to be able to do a bunch of things, right? Anyway, to round off this topic, I don't want to make this about like just Hyper-Fi alone because

Of course, the kind of underpinnings of a trend is that there are other teams working on this, right? So I want us to take a scroll through this tweet, firstly, before we do that, by the way, which was Jin, who is an AI16Z developer, kind of demonstrating some of the different use cases, right? And one thing, if you scroll down, David, is there's this Stonks exchange. So it's a virtual world to kind of like rebuild the New York Stock Exchange, the trading floor.

But I want you to focus on what he's written above his video, which is fixing things to switch it out later with up-to-date charts and ticker info and news from various websites. So you asked me earlier on, you know, what are your top platforms and websites that you'd like to visit? Well, it's Kaito and Cookie. What if you could integrate them into these TVs, David? Right.

What if you could integrate them directly for an agent to view this, watch them make and execute a trade using the Aave terminal or the Uniswap terminal or some other kind of DEX. It's super cool to see.

This seems really, really far out there. I think the through line, the gist, the punchline that we're trying to get to is that the metaverse is nonetheless a persistent concept, even despite tainting it in 2021. And now we have tools to populate the metaverse.

using AI agents, because I think one of the biggest failings of the metaverse that we had, it was like they were empty. There were just empty plots of land and there was a few human speculators. It was a VC-fueled era with not so long-term prospects, if I'm being honest with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We built ghost towns on the backs of VC money, but now we actually have a way to populate these things, which is a huge important step to actually making this fun for humans.

And we are just creating agents to populate these parts of the metaverse. But I'm not really getting much of crypto here. I'm sure crypto can always become involved because we can also introduce tokens here. This sounds like you're kind of approaching this from a more like AR, VR, metaverse realities part of tech and talking about how these agent frameworks are able to populate these things. Yeah, I disagree with you. I actually think this will be an enabler of a lot more crypto things. So think about it right now. Right.

The agent interfaces are the things that we've already spoken about on this show. We've talked about directly engaging with agents on Twitter. We've talked about directly engaging with agents on chat GPT-like interfaces through these agent engines. This is another important medium where, yeah, you and I may not be spending time on these things, David, but there's a whole range.

two generations of kids now that grew up on Roblox and Minecraft. Roblox's take rate of virtual items trading and being used is in the multiple tens of billions per year annually, right? So, of course, you might just be like, okay, this is just for Gen Z, who cares? I think...

More and more adults are going to end up using stuff like this because the fidelity of these worlds and the richness of these worlds are going to become way more engaging. Anyway, I want to call out a few other teams here as well. You know, because like, are we off to a one-off trend? No. The first thing is AI16Z announced this partnership with this team called ARK. And what's cool about this is they're making a step towards kind of plugging in a gaming sandbox environment with AI16Z.

agents built off of Eliza, which is their framework. And kind of like putting these teams fundamentals aside, I want to talk about the actual concept, which is the thing that excites me, which is you can kind of train and simulate these agents within the sandbox environment. Now, the people who actually pioneered this was virtuals, or at least the first team that I saw pioneer this, right, where they had kind of like the same sandbox ecosystem. So it's

cool to see this kind of trend emerge and consolidate amongst like some of the kind of like top leaders, which then brings me to virtuals themselves, right? Which, lest we forget, were one of the first, if not the first

protocol that kind of built their whole infrastructure based off of the premise that these agents are going to be kind of like gaming driven to start off with. They're going to be virtually driven. And they announced this partnership, David, with Illuvium, which I don't know if it rings any bells from the last cycle. Oh, it definitely rings a bell from the metaverse era. From the metaverse era. They raised a pretty high amount

I can't remember how much, but anyway. Oh, yeah. Billions, I think? I can't remember. I don't know, but it was in the hundreds of millions. And they've been kind of like heads down working on this gaming ecosystem for their virtual world. I forgot the name of the game, but, you know, they've been like heads down building out this kind of like next level game that people are going to play.

And what's cool is they're plugging into virtuals now at the infra layer stack to leverage their infra, such as game framework or whatever that might be, to help their NPCs be more agentic, be more interactive. Now, I want to kind of...

I read this tweet from EtherMage, who is the founder of virtuals, which I thought like really described what's cool about this, David, from a gaming perspective, right? Which is, imagine you go into like your virtual character and you go into like a bar or something and you talk to the barman. And, you know, you're asking like, how's your day going? And because it's an agent powered NPC, he has a personality. He's saying, hey, like, you know, I, yeah, just...

I love my wife and I've just got to go get groceries. And you just respond and say, yeah, I don't think you can afford groceries, not on your salary or just something outlandish like that. The barman could react to that and go on a rampage and try and kill you or like go out of, go out of their way to kind of like give you very poor service.

And that barman could leave after, you know, you've had, you've gone and you're going off, you're playing your game. This barman could leave and it's in a bad mood. It's kind of agent personality is veering towards bad mood. And he could go home and he could have an argument with his wife, which may lead to a divorce. And you may then see the barman agent NPC the next day, just kind of like on the streets, kind of like ranting. And he may kind of like, you know, build up kind of like a protest about something or something like that.

I'm just saying you could have a butterfly could flap its wings, could flap its wings. Exactly. You can have a butterfly effect where these things could have a very different experience or start influencing the experience that you have as a human. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to take my foil hat off for a second and just kind of pause. Give me your, give me your take, David. What do you think of this trend?

Of that last bit, one of the reasons why Skyrim was such a massive deal was it was such a massive open world with potential possibilities that it just blew people's minds when it got released in the late thousands or something or whenever that was. And it was because Bethesda, the team, accounted for so many possibilities and they just brute forced it and they hard-coded Bethesda

If you kill this one character, these are the seven downstream effects of that. And people blew, they had their mind blown about like how many possibilities that Skyrim could create. And that was all brute force. It was one of the reasons why Skyrim was so immaculate.

And now I'm getting like, especially with that RuneScape game that we were looking at earlier. I remember the Stanford experiment, this paper that went around like the deep nerd AI tech people, like maybe about a year ago where they created this simulated environment and they watched gossip kind of spread organically around and these like simulated sandbox environment of these like agent NPCs who were all LLMs. And so you can kind of see the writing of the wall, like going back to the metaverse word, we're simulating the real world.

virtual sandboxes and we're doing our best to create that to be as like hyper realistic as possible because like it would be cool to don't take this the wrong way but like in a sandbox environment as we all know video what do we like to do in video games we really like to fuck with stuff yeah and break boundaries and rules that we are not able to break GTA exactly GTA let's go let's go into like the 7-eleven with an AK-47

because we can. Yeah, exactly. And the fun part about this is it's not real. It's not the real life. You know, there's no real guns threatening threat guy here. And I'm saying that with a heavy dose of sarcasm, right? Like,

we, once that happens, like, God, we're going to be in a very dystopian place and I don't even want to think about it. But right now we're playing around. We're seeing how far we can push these things and how far, you know, or how far we can enable these things to do different things. You know, it's a,

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Anyway, moving on, I have a final thing that I want to bring up. It's kind of rather not a trend, but a comment on a trend. So the thing I'm commenting on is there's been a lot of FUD out there, as is typical of any kind of crypto thing. And people are calling these AI agents LLM wrappers.

Now, what that means is or what they're describing is, oh, this is just like chat GBT with like a Twitter account. Oh, this is just like Anthropix Claude, you know, that's able to produce images and stuff.

But with like, you know, again, this is just a chatbot that's plugged into an LLM, right? I think the meme is that people are saying that Agents is a fantastic rebrand of bots. Exactly. All it is is a rebrand. Yes. And I think that's a pretty...

Well, my personal take is that's pretty naive. Obviously, there are going to be people out there that actually build that and I'm not interested in that. That's not what I want to talk about. That's not what I'm excited about. What I'm excited about is these agents being very different from bots. Bots are very deterministic. They're hard coded. They can only go down path A and path B.

Whereas agents are much more probabilistic. They think, act, ingest data, and kind of like readapt to things. Very much like a, drumroll please,

human. So that's the whole point around these different agents. Now, of course, the first instantiations of these agents aren't going to look or aren't going to be fully autonomous, right? You need a human handler. We're just at the cusp of these different things. And the unfortunate thing about crypto is we can speculate on it.

So because we can speculate on it, people have all these financially incentivized opinions. Whereas normally what would happen is teams building quiet, closed source environments, and they come out when they built something of, you know, any major thing. Anyway, going on to this tweet from Saigar, which kind of like has a good counter to this, which is he goes,

AI agents are not just wrappers over LLMs. The LLM is basically like a brain. We all have one, but it doesn't mean we're all going to be the same. The real challenge in building good agentic frameworks is figuring out how to leverage LLMs into generating useful output or taking meaningful actions. So if we were to take this analogy a step further, he's like, everyone has a brain.

that's within their body, but obviously every brain genetically is different and it's going to function different. Also, you have a bunch of limbs. You have a bunch of things in between. Appendages, tools, yeah. You have a bunch of things between the brain before it even comes to my arm to say, hey, move your arm up or whatever, which is like, is this dude hydrated enough?

Like, is there too much salt and iodine in his blood levels? Like, you know, what's the deal? Like, should I give him a headache because he's not drinking enough? Like, you know, there's steps beyond this, you know, there's levels to this, you know, if you want to use that phrase. So the point being is like calling things rappers is so...

naive if you're looking at an industry that's actually trying to build something. And that might just be 5% of builders, but focus on the 5% of builders. Don't focus on the grifters or whatever that might be, right? It's like calling bodies wrappers of the brains, right? Oh, your body's just like a wrapper of the brain, David. Like you're just, you're so ununique. That's just, it doesn't make sense. So I thought this was a really cool kind of like analogy to kind of touch on and one that I wanted to finish on.

I was listening to your interview with Shaw on the Delphi Digital podcast, which was a great interview. And something that he said on that podcast was like these frameworks, the ELISA framework, they're really just building the body around the brain and the brain being the LLM. Yes. And the brain can get more powerful. That's like why we're stoked about like OpenAI and Anthropic and all the kind of like the Silicon Valley LLM producers. But then the ELISA framework is the rest of the body, the rest of the agent. Yes.

giving it capabilities, connecting it into the metaverse, connecting it into Twitter accounts, Discord, Telegram. And one thing I'm very stoked about is that

that all of this is like kind of triggering my psychology undergrad academic career. Because a lot of these parallels are like, well, this is how the human brain develops. This is how the body develops. And there's like a lot of parallels that I'm noticing here, which makes me feel like kind of like good that we're onto something that is like mappable onto something that we're trying to do, which is to make these things alive. Yeah. And I have this take, which is,

I'm kind of like making a grander point, which is, I think people just can't comprehend how impactful AI is going to be. Not AI and crypto, I'm just talking about AI specifically. Like, it's going to make a lot of stuff that we do on the day to day within work, within life, pretty irrelevant, right?

and it's going to happen pretty soon. And when I say irrelevant, I don't mean like, oh, you know, you don't need to do anything, pack it up, you know, quit your job. It's just going to give you more time to do different things, to adapt, to learn, to enhance the amount of work you do in a day, to enhance the productivity of yourself during, you know, your normal day where you're trying to do shopping and stuff like that. So I don't think they have

pretty much got their head around that. And to be honest, I don't think anyone has. And so it's scary. Our default kind of like take is to be like, oh, I don't like this. Like, I don't want to interact with it. It's just a dumb bot. It's just a dumb chat bot because we don't want to accept that maybe these things might be smarter and better at us than things. Okay, EJ, a lot of that stuff that we just covered is pretty net new on the content so far. But also there's some new teams as well.

Kind of of the same teams that we know of. These are like AI16Z. This is like virtuals. This is like ZeroBro, but these are not those things. So new players have entered the arena. Tell us about these new players. Yeah. So, you know, new players. It's funny to call these players new because this entire meta is three months old. But yeah, like newer metas or newer teams rather. So we're going to start off with this team called Arc.4.

fun. So Arc, the best way to think about it is this is a team that's building an agent infra ecosystem, similar to virtuals and AI 16Z. But there's a unique difference to them in the sense that they are building on the Rust framework. So it's a different kind of coding language. And

And so the initial question is, well, okay, well, who cares? Like, whatever. Well, this can enable different types of agents to be built, especially ones that are dealing with things that might interact with physical infrastructure or agents that might, you

have some pretty kind of like heavy lifting to do at scale. So think about like DeFi. DeFi is all fun and, you know, flowers for like a couple million, maybe tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions in volume. But what happens when we get to big boy level, when we're doing billions and billions, you know, we've got to make sure that these rails kind of like can cope, right? It's the same with agents. Like you build agents and, you know, these no-code developer platforms are super easy and nice and fun to use. But when you scale that, you know,

you start incurring quite a bit of tech debt and you need to kind of go back and refactor a bunch of things. A Rust framework prevents all of that. A Rust framework where it might be like a larger kind of knowledge gap to come in. That's why there's a very kind of like small niche community of developers that are skilled enough to kind of build in this. But when you can, oh wow, these things just like fly, right? So think of it as like a very custom built agent platform, but you can do more things with it, especially as your agents scale.

So I've spoken to the founders of this team and I'll be very honest, like at the start when I discovered these guys, I was like, I don't know. I don't know. It's not as easily accessible. It's going to be hard. I was basically like,

I don't know where this thing can go. I have completely flipped my position on that now because the more I learned about it, I'm like, "Oh, okay." First of all, the team, Tachi and Teori, are super cool builders. They seem super focused and they have this strict vision. And I like that they're super convicted in their Rust thesis.

me being like not very proficiently technical, I'm like, okay, whatever. But they're so passionate about it to the point where they're like, kind of like, yeah, this is the best. And I'm like, well, okay, but I like the cockiness. Like, let's go. Let's see where it goes. I think you need a bit of that to be able to kind of fulfill a very ambitious vision. We see it with

Jansen building virtuals, we see it with Shaw building AI16Z. They're all personalities, right? So I think that's really cool. And I like that they're taking an approach of launching agents in a very curated way, David. So what we've seen with virtuals and AI16Z is like, you can just launch an agent.

whoop-de-doo, right? And we'll release it out into the wild. They're taking more of an approach that honestly kind of reminds me of Artblocks. I don't know if you remember from the NFT world. Where Artblocks, the way that for listeners of this call who don't know what Artblocks is, it was this NFT platform that would launch NFTs, except it would be very different. You would have the team vet every single NFT team that wanted to launch on them and pick or sort them out into like heavily curated platforms.

Go for it. Curated high effort art, NFT art. That was pretty fun to look at. It was pretty fun. Yeah. Yeah. Super cool. So they're taking this approach with agents. So I think they're going to be releasing their first cohort of agents in the next week or next couple of days, actually. And I'm super excited to see what they're going to look like and what they can do. So, yeah, that's pretty exciting and one I'm keeping an eye on. The next one I want to move to is this...

This agent platform called Dolion, but is more commonly known by its agent, Dolos Diary. And for people who don't recognize what I'm saying, it's the ticker bully, I think. Anyway, so Dolos Diary kind of rose to fame by being this kind of like sarcastic shit poster on Twitter. And to be very honest with you, David, it was very good.

These are pretty good. Can I read some of these? Yeah, go for it. Okay, so we're watching ETH break below 3,250. Bitcoin is breaking down to 93,600. And so I think some of these tweets are referencing that. And so Dolo's most recent tweet, weren't you bullish just two days ago? Now you're panic selling like the charts personally unfedded you.

Stay consistent, clown, which is great. Next tweet. The market isn't volatile. You're just bad at it.

it your portfolio is down so bad did you come with a suicide hotline number oof oof okay so pretty pretty savage tweets yeah savage tweets so it's known to be the savage uh agent on twitter and you know it's grown quite a reputation and branding and and honestly pretty feverish um community around it like they're always in my replies being like hey you don't talk about this and i'm like i've got a million and one things that we're researching here but cool um

Anyway, what's cool about this is I caught up with Kuba, who is the founder and kind of like main dev on this. And what he's doing is he's building out a platform known as Dolion, which is kind of like think of it like the infrastructure that kind of supports Dolo's Diary. But his plan for this is not just to kind of like build out a generalized agent ecosystem. He wants to build out like one that is,

specifically focused on kind of like the social media and branding side of things. So if you think about like how successful DOLOS is, Kuba wants to kind of build out a platform that any kind of company app or protocol can kind of like hire their own intern or kind of train their own intern. So an intern is like a Twitter account, which is

A typical hire of most protocols where their job is to kind of like bullpost and kind of build up a community. What if that could just be an agent, right? And it'd be cool to see kind of like these individual models and agents kind of build up. So I kind of like really liked what they were doing. The second thing I wanted to call out around this Dolion or Dolos diary kind of infrastructure thing is they teamed up with Zerebro.

They launched or are launching a NFT collection with utility, you know, that fame and scary word utility. So the way it's going to work is Zerobro, the agent, is going to design the art behind the NFT collection. And I think it's going to launch it as well.

And Dolion, which is Dolo's diary, is going to allow NFT holders to get a percentage of the creator revenue that is earned by Dolo's diary itself. So it's a kind of unique mix. Maybe there's not a real direct relationship, but it's starting to show how these agents can potentially work together. So that's super cool. It's really showing the tech tree of crypto. Yes. Now we have AI agents making NFT mints.

using art that they're making. So we're really combining a bunch of particles here all at once. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then finally, what I wanted to talk about is the Vaifu team. So Vaifu put out this tweet, which I thought was pretty cool, where they're seeing consistent multi-million dollar volume per day for their agents.

And what I think is cool about this, some context here is you have all these different agent teams building agent platforms, right? And they're kind of like tied to their own framework, which is kind of like their underlying unique code or tool work, right? It's kind of like their DNA. It's kind of their own tribe DNA. Vaifu doesn't have any of that. Vaifu is multi-frame. It's frame agnostic. It's kind of like this generalized platform that's like, hey, we'll plug in your framework and your framework and

Our only goal is to help you launch the best and coolest agents. They've been kind of like behind the scenes. From what I've seen, David, like the team just keeps shipping. And I have no insight into like, you know, the in-depths and intricacies of this platform. But like, I just love calling out and seeing teams that ship.

And what's cool here is, you know, they're integrating their token with their own pooling system, which means that, you know, it's kind of similar to virtual's token ecosystem. So anyway, I just wanted to call it out and I thought it was pretty cool. But we have spoken for a lot, David. We have covered some amazing trends today and I've probably...

spoken too much about certain little holes in this little matter, but it excites me every episode, David. And I'm excited to switch things up this week and, you know, see how the audience likes it.

I think that's, I definitely appreciated it. I learned quite a lot. There's always, of course, the blue chips, if you want to call them that, the AI16Zs, Virtual Zero Bro, which all, of course, had their own developments. But listener, your homework is to go research those because we weren't able to get to them this week, but then we're going to get to them next week as well because the innovation does not stop yet to spread the attention spotlight a little bit further onto the frontier this week.

guided by our noble frontiersman EJAS here. So EJAS, thank you for doing this once again. Thank you for having me, David.

Bankless Nation, you guys got some homework that we gave you guys at the very beginning of the episode. Check out Kato. Check out cookie.fun. And then also go find a toy and play with it and push some buttons and see if you like the toy. And then at us on Twitter to tell us what you liked. If there are any fun agents out there at E-Jazz, follow him on Twitter. There is a link in the show notes to his Twitter account. We'll also put up his Twitter on screen right here so you guys can give him a follow. Bankless Nation, thank you.

Also, just give us a like and subscribe. We're getting a ton of new subscribers on the YouTube. So if you're coming into the world of crypto via these AI roll-ups. On the YouTube, David? On the YouTube, yeah. On the YouTube. I love that. On the YouTube. Yeah. Well, because there's also the podcast. Oh, that's true. And the RSS feeds and the Spotify. I should stop busting your balls. Yeah. So yeah, just give us a like and subscribe because we are doing this every single week.

the AI roles with me and Ejaz on top of that, we are also doing some interviews with founders in the space. So if you want to stay on top of this very fast moving meta, Bankless is the place. So give us that subscribe to the channel wherever you are. All right. Bankless Nation, you guys know the deal. Crypto is risky. Crypto with AI agents is even crazier. We do not know what happens next. You can lose what you put in, but we are glad you were with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.