Kraken's 'Ink' - the Newest L2 in the Optimism Superchain | Ben Jones & Andrew Koller
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Welcome to bank less, where today we explore the frontier of the cracking layer two, ladies and gentleman, cracking is going on chain. There is a big announcement today. It's just breaking.

Couple weeks ago, we talked about the unit chain, which is joining the optimism super chain will now crack in is a announcing the launch of ink, which is its on chain crack and experience IT is a layer to its in the optimism super chain. And it's very exciting. We got all the details today, David. I just got to say i'm excited about this. They're been rumor that cracked on is going to launch a layer to for a while we'd been like, yeah, apple rain, are your folks at track and the people .

we know just like, hey, news and was vital well, I was hoping that .

would be cool, what I would say, and this exceed my expectations. I think theyve got a fantastic approach for IT, and i'm very decided about there what they're building, what they're architecture in some the dates around this.

No, I think this actually marked with the advent of ink crackings layer too. There's extremely few large centralized exchanges or even medium size centralized exchanges left that do not have unassociated blockchain. Of course, bints has bnb coin base, has bed crack, now has ink OK x has uh a chain um chronos has the Z K sink chain is .

the cypher dot com crept.

点 com by bit created mental？ Um so actually it's kind of cool. We guy. Now the centralized exchange is on chain is like one of the best validation of like one of our earliest theses that we had in twenty twenty, like all blockchain, all cense exchanges, which what is a centric exchange IT is a bank or a bank is just a legend. Well, they are going to use block chains, which are just ledges, and they all is just one, one by one where is knocked on him down.

And the crypto banks, or the crypto you're going to do this first and then after, should we make another prediction? okay. So another prediction after this is all of the a traditional banks will come on.

Change will be long until black rock goes out its layer two. And as crazy as that sounds now, okay, IT sounds a crazy for us to say back in twenty that all exchanges would have their own actives and and so they do. Here's the next evolution of that.

I think that the next step is so right now, they are creating an additional ledger. So they have the internal entry ledger that they have of humans. what? Now they have also two letter.

I want to see their people's layer tools to start to internalize the business logic, take out the guts of the bank, and put that have a chain. A we we need some scalability. We need some privacy. We need some zk for that uh because like people don't want to see have their internal business logic broadcasting. So we need to like make that international business logic private, but that's also the next step.

So for that one is part of the great migration our guys, we're going to right to the episode. But before we begin and we got ta shout out and thank our sponsors who made this episode possible support.

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Curious about how A, I and when three can shape the future. You can visit zero g 到 A， I to explore the infrastructure as revolutionizing dealie. Ed A, I. B conception, super excited to introduce you to benn Jones, the co founder of optimism, and Andrew color, the founder of ink. But Andrew, uh, what is ink?

Ink is a new on chain unit from cracking IT started over a year ago. Uh, this really famous kind of long, long walk in amsterdam with somebody, I retired a very old friend, and we kind of just walked around for like five hours figuring out what the heller or we're gonna with, like taking cracking on chain. So he started with all these different experiments, and we didn't have a name for IT.

IT was got like cracking innovation unit type thing. And then um we decided one day to just call a cranking ink because it's like there's several apods, no tensile and ink and all that can up. So it's like you're writing your future with ink, and we're bringing that like easy to use experience that we have uh, on our centralize platform, hopefully all on chin. So cracking ink is you know the evolution of all of our ideas and experiments into partnering with optimism for the announcement today, which is that we are partnering with optimism and launching our own superchain that is going to be very defy centric and uh the test and is a devon give .

us side of the story here from the optimism superchain perspective a what's going on yeah I mean.

the story is this this end to hit perfectly. I think you know from our perspective, it's obviously huge honor to have cracking during the collective and um hoping on board to build on the superchain. I think that we're at a point in time um in the industry right now where we are getting lots of another l two announcements.

And I think to think that you I feel responsibility um to like ensure happens is that that does not lead to like chaos and fragmentation, right? So IT is an honor to have Andrew and folks like him joining the superchain. And IT is also a critical that in doing so, we don't turn into a big fragmented mess. We have all the people doing the best things that they can do in positive some ways that connect together into one cohesive thing. So yeah, what that means is another amazing member of the super chain, another incredible, you know, set of strength that cracking is bring to the table, and at the same time trying to ensure that as we perform this journey and we go down the world of centric map towards many, many, many altus, that the super chain can play a part in helping unify and standardized otto OK.

Okay, very cool. I, I, I will say that glass has long held thesis that that all of the exchanges would eventually come on. Jane and IT sounds like that this is holding true. And this is this is crackings endeavor to bring uh a lot of its core business and in some its offerings on gene. So and I just want to go over what you said just by way, every cap.

So you are A A representative uh a leader of ink, which is this a business unit within cracking or is a separate entity and you are bringing some like you're deploying on chain functionality inside of the the crack and ecosystem. So some people listing might think of something like a base. I don't know if it's going to be similar to base, different from base, but uh, this is a inside internal crack and initiative.

is that correct? That's create it's entirely a business unit within cracking. Um IT is you can kind of think of IT as a separate entity, know there's all kinds of structures that we're set up to make happen, uh, but IT really is.

You know it's similar to any other exchange your company. I think that's that's trying to go on chain and realizing that there is the conversions like in the nineties. And this is like a really cliche analogy and I think it's overplayed.

But T C, P, I, P was the convergence in the nineties. I really think that all companies are going to be emerging in doing things on chain. Uh, obviously, centralized exchanges are the first to start doing this because we have our central older books.

We have all our users. We're going to be bringing all of the layers that let you authenticate into the centralized books. And everything that cracked has to offer two on chain that I think either know, say, coin base or or everybody else kind of doing those like immediately layers.

But like i'm extremely bullish on this that it's like IT doesn't stop at centralize exchanges. It's like thousands of companies are going to be having their own l two banks, whatever IT is. Um I hope there's a day we wake up in the like mazda is joining the super chain.

I have no idea that would be really fun. Um but yeah, I instance your question that is IT is a entire business unit within cracking, and it's really ink and the wallet together. So we are kind of joining forces with our cracking wallet with ink and where we're trying to see just across the whole stack um as IT relate to initially to defy what we're going to bring on chain. But then like I said, there's the authentication of the central order book in K, Y, C and all that. There's no reason that .

you should beyond chain to okay. So can we talk about in this component pieces? So of course, you cracking is most known for being a cypher exchange. So way, as we say, on bank less to sort of you know on board from from fia across the casm and go into the of the cypher, a world that's the centralized exchange peace. It's also true that, that cracking has rolled out a wallet.

So you have already an on chain wallet that um is like fantastic, great user experience, but that's basically starting to expose cracking users to the on chain ecosystem. So you've got that piece of IT. You've got the exchange. You are mentioning some sort of authentication kind of like credential A L K Y C. And now you are rolling out ink and you said, would that be, did you say, tesney or main net by defcon .

teste dev con? I think magnet is what we're working for.

Early cue one wow. okay. So tesney dev con may early. So you're bringing all of these things together.

And like what is going to happen on ink, do you think I mean, is that is that sort of your permissions seeker system where uh, defy and other applications are are invited to kind of light gum build things in the in on the platform? Are you taking you like a different um yes, you know is there different lens on this that that cracked cities? Like what exactly are you putting on chain? What sort of apps are you hoping .

will be in the ecosystem? Initially it's IT is inviting the world to build like their their defy applications on chain. It's know helping providing kind of tooling that uh would make their experiences easier. Um so it's initially kind of look at laying the foundation of that. We we are incubating something that is going to allow any kind of builder.

We also have a hacer house h to do little plg a for dev con um where people can use our tooling work with our partners, partner with us because we also have a little incubator that we're gna be doing and helping can like fund some of these these projects that might want to build an ink um but it's really taking like the easy to use U S. That we have a cross craft and right now and really bring that to the dev experience. So instead of having all the weird bridges and hopes and know multiple approvals and things that you know D I users have to like live with, we really want to bring like that crack and og kind of cypher's unk and privacy in self sovereignty into the easy use, A U X space.

When you pop up in the hood, technically speaking, and you talk about the technical of the actual chain, like what's the engine? What's the built on? I know we're using the O P. Sack, of course, because of part of the supermarket chain but like can go into any more detail.

Yeah I mean I mean word out of the gate like um IT is O B stack. Uh, we do have to you know be in the super chain and be compliant with that. And you know we have a ton of ideas for you know, improvements.

So we we definitely will be giving back to the community and making sure that were core contributors proposing anything that we think is is good for our applications that could be going into governance. But we will we will be targeting um less than at least to start for minute less than one second block times. We are leaning into six, seven, eight, three for crushing intense.

We're inning into seven, seven or two when that hits me net. So we're really taking like our foundation of like the wallet experience to in moving that fully into sort wallets fully into seven, seven or two or three. And there's not too much modifications to the stack when we we go alive. Really just kind of like the block time and focusing on on these ips that haven't hit me that yet.

And then how is the relationship with the cracking in exchange going to syndicates with ink, the layer two? I know there's a bunch of moving parts here we are to talk about the wall, but also the exchange is going to be like the big on boarding flu. Um what i'm assuming there's going to be some special treatment versus all the other networks out there for, right?

Maybe um it's it's kind of decided honestly because we don't we don't really view IT as like competition, like we're not trying to compute the sora. We're not trying to compute with base or anybody. It's all the super chain.

And we just like I can knick shape we do with you IT as rising tide oll ships, right? It's we are joining into neco system where IT is fully going to be interactive. Liquidity is going to be shared everywhere eventually. So it's not like somebody trying to hurt everything and say, like this is the best chain out there. Um of course, we going to make IT really awesome experience on our chain. But as far as the rest of like cracking, I think we want to get our foundation out the door, make that really good tooling in ux and then ensure that everything that crack and eventually has like an on chain component to IT. We want to make sure that everybody is thinking of the on chain perspective first and you know helping we push the limits and make sure that our financial services and products go go watching.

What would you say are the goals that you're trying to measure like the K, P, I, you trying to get active addresses, you trying to get T V L. What was the north star that you guys are having, uh, looking for to to grow in? What does that mean to grow in?

I mean, to put simply, I think I think transacting users, we we want to like I said, we want to take our easy to use experience and just. Push that as hard as we came at the defy um you know huge shadow to like us oran infinite like those are beautiful projects that um you know a lot of good ideas that you know we want to labor ate with and going to do some of our own flavors of that.

So um I think like for KPI eyes, that would be transacting users if I had to put IT specifically. But this IT started the year ago in very much an experimental face like we did. We did dozens of testes.

We were trying every stack out there. We fun with zero knowledge proof, making your own like you know um proof checkers and all this kind of stuff. And we eventually landed on joining them and doing the super chain. And you know that's the kind of like our all of our experiments coming true. And then what can we experiment on in going forward?

So why the superchain enjoy? Why do you lend on that after expLoring lots of other alternatives in the L, T. space?

Has been has A. Long hair for the part sisters .

we have two gentleman with is some fantastic flow. And the photos so low below the camera that I don't know, I think it's actually like the same. It's the same. Yeah, yes, yeah. We're in .

to crack. It's uh um the advice super chain. I I just like no bad ill on any other you know sack out there.

I think like I said, we had so much fun experimenting with everybody else is saying arbitrium IT was fun running all their kind of tesney to everything. Um it's just we saw like a lot of other people wanting to join the super chain. We really enjoyed the roadmap of um interval IT is not just international ability within the superchain like IT.

I love seeing all the proposals of like not ignoring everybody else sets that outside of that. So to me, IT just felt like this makes a lot of sense. We have a really good large partner.

Um the stack is like a non developer can do use concern, like run the op stack and like a second right like he just won that thing up. And you're seeing how a theory an works. And we felt that experience and we just wanted to join in on that very well.

You know a few different road map items that I think are are relevant to uh, ink. Now you like when you go to tesla and then may that you like one is the l two beat sort of stages of the centralization and imagine you're starting at like a stage zero. But what what's the planted progressed to kind of stage one to stage to do? Do you have any thoughts on this?

We have the high level plans um like ultimately the goal is to fully decentralize. Um don't we don't want to be the only sencer Operator um at all? But like we just kind of have like IT a rough outline. And I think once we hit me out, we want to publish like actual timeline and how we want to decentralize this um pretty rough tilings because it's it's a difficult task um but yeah, we don't want to be the sole Operator to start that can be like level zero or stage zero.

So the plan is to decentralize, get as close to unit stage to work or end up in stage to at some point time and also have some path to decentralized your sencer as well as is that in the cards?

Yep, we wonderfully decentralize the sequence CER. I don't know what that looks like. You know everything is a high level plans that does that look like. We have you a doubt that we have governed.

I I don't know um on on how we do that exactly, but that's been top of mind even before we started expLoring the super chain is just like we don't we really want to lean into like the og crack value. I can say it's the self serve in ty. I have always viewed us and this is why I joined. I've always viewed us as like the O G cyphers es in the space.

and we want to stay you to those values. That's great. OK cool. Another scaling function, the quest to get to gig gas into in terms of you know your scaling um actual execution performance.

And we've seen many op stack kind of communities on that path, you know adding a little bit more every week. My understanding of this is kind of rough, but like it's sort of an info type of initiative of engineering some dev ops required to to get there. What's the plan for, for scaling to you gig gas levels in beyond?

So initially it's um I can I can definitely shut this out because um you know where announcing today, geo lotto is one of our large launch partners. And so we're working really closely with geeta, um you know helping us with all infrastructure and we're going to be plugged in to like we already worked with them to do the sub second block times. So it's um anything with gas soph mizan, we're going to be plugged in with them. I don't know if you want to comment on on that bin.

Yeah I would love to you know, I think quite Frankly, I think this line of questioning is exactly where I feel super excited for the super chain to innovate and like to help enter out. And like quite Frankly, in many ways, the goal of the collective and the goal of the super chain is to make all of these infrastructural scaling questions much less sexy than I think they have history ally been treated. The reality is that, like Andrews and og, cyber punk, trying to bring you a huge centralized exchange on chain, has his handfull high handful across every layer of the stack, as IT is.

And ultimately, what we need to do as an industry is move up the stack away from these low level innovations and towards building fantastic products at the Andrews point brings the world on chain and brings many users on chain, not just the power users, not just the people who are willing to, like you understand how all of these, you know, seed phrase and new wax and network switching and RPC and all these things work. You know. So one of the very important things for us in the super chain is to baLance standards so that there is a ground to truth across the super chain that android doesn't have to think about, that Andrews users don't have to think about, just work.

So for example, you ask a question about um stage one earlier. Andrew should have to do very little to get ink to stage one. Optimism has built the security council to do IT.

We've built the standards to do IT. We've built the governance processes to govern stage one chains. The superchain will bring a bunch of change to stage one um into twenty twenty five. And the goal is for that not to be some massive one of contributed process but is to work across the industry for all of the chains that are benefiting from the shirt standard in the superchain. And you know the same goes um for things like um the gas limits that we were talking about as well.

Um there's an a very important baLance to also give um what we call chain governors, like under the space to be able to make decisions about things like sequencing because you don't see a univerSally applicable set of standards there. When you hear we want a lot of output on our chains and we want a lot of decentralized on our chains, anything that I can take that is uncontroversial that Andrew and all of the folks that are running change in the super chain wants should just be magically complete for him. And that's like very much of the goal of super chain is also the primitive on which we build international ability. So yeah that that would be kind of this .

is kind of dangerous comment of rising tide lift fell boats uh, in the super chain ecosystem. Sounds like that's really what you're striving to. I I want to make one just general comment about why this is so exciting.

Like to me and a blisters may have a gone back to an eight sixteen z state of cropt report where there are some stats thrown out there. And this is the most interesting stat. So then you were just talking about bringing a large centralized exchange on chain.

Okay, the total um you like uh market of crypto asset holders right now centralize exchange and others is something like five hundred and thirty million like those are users by holders worldwide and there's only a tiny subsection of those users that are on chain today. So sixteen these estimates were like between twenty and thirty million. So that delta, all of the rest that five hundred million or so are basically within our fund of like moving them from not just to centralized exchange, where they hold crypto to asset to actually come on chain. That really is the opportunity for ink, for the super chain, for layer tools, for serum, for the wider cyp du community is convert holders to actual on chain users. And this is the massive White space that crypto to has an expansions that we have is bring the world on chain.

Yeah and it's like I said, it's just to make IT stupidity simple to use right like that's um i've i've been in cypher since uh early twenty fifteen um and you know just found a antil master ing by coin book and like reit inside out. And it's quite Frankly it's finished ting experience .

since .

right like we don't we're bridging everywhere. We're doing all this your seed phrase storing and stuff like that. People lose that. We all know the story but um yeah it's it's if we can bridge that that delta and you know just attract more easy to use experiences like this where again, you like you're taking like your whole life and what you do on you in the real life for like taxes and mortgage and all these different things. If you're bringing all of that on chain, we can absolutely that with with .

in the super chain, then something I want to lean into. I really like the idea here of this super chain having this like universal upgrade mechanism where all of the optimism super chain chains all upgrade once reduces fragmentation, reduces security fragmentation. And I think from the users perspective, I think people are kind of looking for a well win.

Is the U. X. Fragmentation going to to disappear? And that's been like one of the core promises of like the superchain ever since the super chain was announced.

And I think you like even all the other like layer two frame ks are kind of all working their own secret, like manhattan project for how to reduce fragmentation inside of their own standard, right? Like the casing has their um elastic chain, which promises to reduce the fragmentation inside of the elastics chain. Uh, the superchain has been promising to do this for for a while since we have you here.

Uh, what can you feel like kind of let us in to like the manhattan project that optimism has been building? What's the secrets of that you guys got? It's going to a reduce the reduce the fragmentation of the super chain and make the super chain one single seamless experience because notably, the superchain is singular, not super chains. It's super chain. And so when does that experience come into play for the users?

The alpha is always on github. David, I think the first thing that I would say is like.

no, no, I I I strongly .

about you. Well, I mean, really I must strongly object to like manhattan project because everything that the op stack and optimism as a collective does is out in the open. So go to spects that optimism that I or the spects rio um go to the protocol r indeed discord.

You will see everything being developed a out in the open in public and that includes arguments and mistakes in the homeless yards, right? And so well, maybe we're not, you know, maybe that like we lose in some adversarial mindset, some ability of her like alpha that I could uniquely like drop here only if I wanted to and if I thought that was comfortable. That's not the goal of a thereon.

The goal of a syria is to like bring the world on chain and like the best way to do that is to release everything is open source and build a community around IT. So okay, dump yeah go ahead. But that's that's my caviar and then I answer the question.

okay yes, this this a transparent inside out open a manh and projects OK. What is IT and is there there like a timeline that that we can expect IT?

Um so again, it's all in the open. I would encourage you to go make your own timely judgments ments as you go see things evolving. What i'll say is that um the core insight that we have hand is that standard decision is key.

So in the same way that my goal and the collectives goal is to make folks like Andrews life easier on the infrastructure side so they can focus on being their users on chain and solving all of the horrible things that will allow, like my mom, to use cyp to super seamlessly in a way that's not you know directly in my warehouse other than like spending hours with the right. Um the key insight that you start with is that standard decision enables a stronger degree of interrogation order. So the key kind of concern that you have when you're trying to make a seamless network of chains, it's kind of exactly you eluted to David, which is that security matters.

And any time the you introduce a fragmentation in security, you introduce another hot that developers have to think about, you introduce another hot that wallets have to think about being responsible and how they um show things. You introduce uh an economic efficiency that uh you know bridges have to like deal with, right? For example, we have a seven day withdraw period for the fault proof that introduces economic and efficiency if you don't do IT, right.

So once you have a shared standard that everybody follows that is governed together and that follows um a shared security model, the next step is to make those change interOperate. And there are lots of also initiated that are happening across the syrian to make syrian change interOperable. And of course, we're um working strongly to make sure that all those things come to syria into the chain in a way as compatible the rest of the ecosystem.

But fundamentally, I think the core insight that we have that is met, you know if you want to call IT the manhattan ject alpha, even though it's all freely available, ultimately comes down to the same thing that allows folks like entry to focus on bringing awesome shit to market and not dealing with a bunch of infrastructural ano craft is the exact same thing that brings international ability forward. So for example, super chain N E R C twenty is a super chain wide standard that you can use that is meant to enable, like zero slippage, fungible assets to move across different chains in the super chain. This is an extreme, powerful, primitive.

You can build things like IT across the boundaries of security, but ultimately is within a cohesive model and unit of security that you can really get that economic efficiency and truly have like the you know slippage free bridged bridging kind of experience. I think we're we're all dreaming out. So anyway, I don't want a ramble for too long, honestly.

Just the core insight is that folks have a unified security model and once you have that, you can build much more powerful interOperability on top. And so that's kind of the core of the interpretations rote up um for the super chain. That's how we go from seven days to move assets and send messages that developers across chains you know down to a matter of seconds um and it's how you do IT without causing um you know big mistakes on the security front door you know the next bridge hacks of twenty .

twenty I all on removal of the seven days are reducing that that was one of the questions that we asked you guys was okay. It's seven days is optimistic. Roll up. How can we can we plugged in our own proof or something like that? IT was IT was awesome because that was already in the works of like okay, there is going to be eventually some kind of module proof system. So anybody could you know bring your own proof type of thing um or have your own like proof as a service or something if you wanted and then you you could do know whatever you wanted .

on on the superchain. Yeah the seven day thing is that you know because it's an optimistic roll up. Obviously if you were going to like bridge with like full kind fund proof to a theoria that would there would be a seven day sort of way. Is would that also be true in the defauts state for like moving from from cracking lake back to ink and like back back and fourth, sort of have to wait seven days in .

the board like from the centralist exchange to ink yeah well so that that we fortunately have all of centralized the huddle that we can you do some magic on and move some stuff around so so people could you know if you wanted to get from ink to um you know say another chain on the super chain and you don't want to go through um some bridge mechanism on on chain, you could use cranking as like a hot as like your own bridge then instantly go to another chain. Right now I think ideas not like the future, then we don't always have centralized exchanges as like the hop to do that kind of stuff because that doesn't kind of funky you know managing the liquidity across those. Um ideally, that's all just instantly.

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So I guess may be a question on the super chain band. So if if i'm like from a user perspective, and I know a lot of work is as being done on standard, you like you are shared security, these sort of things. But what I kind of want to know as a user is at the end of twenty twenty five will give that kind of like another year.

So in goes into pride you for q one twenty twenty five. But let's let's recall, I mean, this has been a big month for optimism in the superchain. Just a couple weeks ago, we were talking about a the uni swap chain, the unchain becoming part of the super chain.

That was just an announcement a couple weeks back. So now in the super chain, you've got big sources of liquidity. You've got base, you've got the O P M, you've got sora, which has been mentioned. You've got like you swap in, you have world chain. There's a lot of different like pieces here, right? And so what I sort of why as a user is at the end of twenty, twenty five, i'm not looking for all like you know to us to fixed fragmentation across all of the serum yet and all of other ecosystems outside of the superchain.

But when i'm in the superchain and i'm using a wallet that is connected to any one of these like know a dozens of chains inside of the super chain and perhaps, you know, more than that, soon I want to feel like one chain, like i'm just like the way the theory mania used to feel, just like i'm on made IT and everything is accessible and my wallet looks good. So I don't have to like, oh, i've got this access over on this game, this access that looks good. And if I want to move from like one place to the other, it's just like this. It's not a whole like bridge.

And then do you do the thing? And IT all feels like one seamless chain, including the liquidity I want to tap into. If I make a trade on a deck somewhere in super a chain world, and like I know, I shouldn't have to know, I should be abstract as what chain i'm on and you get the best Price across all of these change, how close will we be to that vision by the end of twenty twenty five? Do you think talk to me.

uh, talk to me in a few weeks when we look into testing baby, I think, you know, like to come and also I can come join the to in IT. Um that is the gulp. So, you know, timelines are hard and I want to commit to some timeline here, I think on the timeline, ines, your tag. But there are very big strides that we can make on this problem. The core of the interpret ability um work that is being done in collective right now.

This man hat open source manhattan project is a word David is to enable exactly that is saying what is the first bite towards unifying in syria that we can take that reasonable? Well, if all of those chains, world chain, a base uh, ink uni chain, are all on a shared standard and they're all stage one with a shared governing layer by the security council, some governance. Then the first thing that we can do is enable, I would even say feels like one chain IT should like feel like one internet.

You even know that it's a chain, right? But um the goal is to get those is to get assets moving across there basically at a you know two block lencs. So you know depending on the block k times like that, you know under seconds easily.

And so that is explicit the goal if you go to the specks and look at and you know poke ground to get up really hard. That's what you'll see happening. You'll see super chain c 2 assets。 You can actually go to, uh, super sym right now, which is are like local superchain testing environment where you can spend up multiple chains being simulated on your machine and you can use the R C superchain irc twenty standard and move those assets between chains really, really, really quickly.

So obviously, there's a long journey in terms of like working through those standards and ensuring they are good for application developers in a way that we're really confident I can ship to main that obviously there's work to be done. And what does the story look like that IT requires fewer button clicks, then you might see if you go to the getup today and and move assets across those chains. But IT is but IT is absolutely the point is to, within the boundaries of that super chain, make all the liquidity and assets seamless.

And like ultimately the goal, you, like Andrews before a rising tide, lift all boats. And guess what, you can be a lot easier for those rising tides to lift each other's boats. If IT doesn't take one week to move across the different chains in the super chain. And so yeah, you present yourself that is the focus and um and that's what were doing.

Andrew, pretty recently, a maybe just last week or or two weeks ago, cricket introduce a crack BTC of which we're calling crack BTC here at blankness IT was this energy is there any synergy between crack BTC and ink? You're going to put the crack B2C on .

the cha in oh yea h yea h hav ing the hom e for IT rig ht now is OP m in ute um but yea h we wil l def initely dep loy imm ediately to to ink. Um I think it's the first of many exploratory in um taking know some of our best in class like know custody solutions. We have.

We have our own qualified custody products so we can at least custody the underlying assets of really safely. Um I I designed the whole system so I know it's it's nice sounds of beauty. So yeah it's like first in mining experimentations, I think we want to lean into like what where can we plug? Listen to our easy to use stuff on on ink and what other assets can we explore that we want to bring to the superchain? Um you know I can see which ones but like there's definitely others were trying to explore certain ly.

And just curious, Andrew, um if there was a ticker symbol to go with this uh chain, what what would you be? Would IT be taker?

I think um okay, absolutely no plans to do any kind of can do anything like that so I do have to put that disclaimer. Um but we do. We like eternally I mean we love the the the name cracked um like like you know crp B T C or cracked or something or um like a little bit more inappropriate is like people eternally upset by kink. I don't know you want to lean into that that be like I mean, there could be a lot of means for IT, so but no no plans for anything like that.

okay. Now this problem.

I think when you get to the discard instead of gm, you've got to say what's crackin .

yeah this is how we built a .

big team .

of crack engineers so like we should probably lean into IT nice.

Um one thing that I think is interesting, I am wondering about some prognostication from from bothy guys in terms of what the superchain economic zone is we're calling IT like might end up looking like because it's sort of interesting where you have like this this melting part of, I guess, different chains.

And i'm wondering how generalized they will be versus how specialized like so you look at something like sora and IT seems like they are specializing very much and in kind of the creative economy and you have to have wonder what a uni swap is going to do. Do IT has to be something core around liquidity and exchange and and defy. And then you look at like base, and it's doing a little bit of everything, including some of the same things that the op may that is doing now you have ink on there too.

And I sort of wonder if we're going to get change that specialize in unique areas like, oh, this chain does this specifically or if there's going to be like a lot of you apps that are repeated across all of the chains where just like we're all kind of generalized in doing a little bit of the same thing with some overlap, i'm not sure how that's all going to work out. But one of the interesting things and you mentioned early, Andrew, was IT IT creates like this nice you know um infinite game kind of like a like you know a Better coordination mechanism for everybody who is inside of of the superchain on the thermo system. So somebody that would formally probably in the exchange world be as a competition.

And maybe there is some you know um like we want to get market chair from coin base and cracking. Now what's good for ink is also good for base. And what's good for base is good for ink.

And that's kind of a different, I guess, coordination set up a from two traditional competitors. I would say now you're all together working towards some shared purpose and shared going. Maybe the war becomes against, you know, everyone who's not on shame, right? Anyway, I am throwing a lot of things out there.

But my basic question is, what do you think this crazy superchain economic zone? Where do you think that's going to end up? Like do you have any any sense for this? Maybe I i'll throw this to to bend first since you've been there since kind of like day one where you think this will end up looking like.

yeah so I I mean first so I think you hit um the nail on the head with the positive someone what benefits one benefits all you know I think in many ways, like there's a much more smooth brain decision that Andrew could have made here, which was not take that approach and kind of take the more like traditional web to its our boat that needs to go up, not the tide that lives in all.

And I really, really respect what enter and cracking and you have done in making that decision and I think really like making IT to the other side of the bell care of on tai in the in terms of the kind of like dumb competition crypt to twitter games that you might see out in the wild. You know, I to speak out, by the way, super chain n economic zone as easy, fascinating and heard that one. So I think the first of all, there is no question that compose base um is a key property of syria that makes IT different.

And I think I actually spend a lot of time repeating this story because in many ways, before we have really scale block chains that kind of gets forgotten because through put is limited and so things get congested and Prices go up. But actually, I think if you compare like how the internet works and web two architectures or web three architecture, one of the undeniable superpowers is the nature of composition order. And that anybody can write any application that implements and you that interacts with any other application and they can all kind of follow their own rules and connect together, right?

Compare what IT takes to like integrate two websites that do know uh like offer different services on the internet. It's like tens of millions of dollars months of legacy integration work versus writing a smart contract that interacts with another smart contract is just night and day. There is a superpower here where everybody can permissions lesly innovate on top of everybody else.

And so I don't think by any such of the imagination that's going away. In fact, I think that just gonna more and more to the forefront. And so to answer your question about you know, what is the degree of specialization? Are they going to a be upset to everywhere verses on on one place? I think it's going to be a mix. There's no question that some apps superpowers will be integrating on top of other ecosystems and other applications and those ecosystems licence may be spread over different chain ideas. In the best way for those folks um to serve their users and customers is to go across there.

At the same time, I think things like culture and specific use cases are also going to specialize across different areas of the super chain um in the same way that we see you know more connected uh money lego hubs on a theory um l one and then more connected N F T hubs on a theory in a and they're all sitting on a theory, marwan. But the degree of connection within those ecosystems is where those applications are good at composing. So anyway, I don't maybe there is a second for the question that, that i'm missing there, but I think the core answer is like everything's gonna compose.

There is going to be a basic utilities and things like that, that makes sense to go everywhere. I'm also incredible excited for um again folks like Andrew and ink to be able to focus on some of their core things that they can do uniquely well and not have that be in contrast or not that be an opportunity cost against all of the awesome things happening in the rest of the ecosystem. And especially as you move down that move IT forward through the tech nery of interactive and now across change, that you can send a message, you know, two seconds and those connect those things and everything composes together can be pretty doubt. So I don't know that was maybe a crazy band and will go yeah I think .

I entry no no I think I think he IT there. Like it's um we have always viewed IT as like if you're if you're doing some kind of trade or swap for something on in, we wanted make sure that um you know all the summary of what bench said in what we've been talking about.

If you do swap on ink, you tapping in the liquidity somewhere else and the user has no idea we want IT like you could be tapping the liquidity and like fifty different locations and the user has no idea that's that's kind of like know where we see the the interactions. But also the your question on the kind of APP specific or more general, um I think it's just can be a blend of IT of everything like IT like yeah base might be more generals or as definitely very nf or specific working to be very defi specific unit changes the same. But um ebben said like I don't I don't want have to worry about a lot of the security and know all the upgrades and everything like that. We just want to take cracking products and throw them on chain and then do our own unique flavor with that, which you know some might look similar to some protocols deployed on base or deployed on unchain or something. But hopefully you again, if we don't want to care about of like the larger running a blockchain, then well, let's like put all over talent into innovation and in trying new things.

One of the one of the analogies that um we have started going around internally is to think about um highway. So and now I remember number of years ago, David, right, I was up here talking about the birth of the optimism collective. And back then there was only one chain.

There was only opp made. We two analogies between OK made being a city and optimism governance being, you know, some of like governing structures uh, and economic zones of that city. And one of the ways you can think about interpret ability is like draw analogy between interpret able and the birth of the inter state highway system that allowed people to drive much longer distances in much less time due to the great infrastructure that he developed as a public good.

And you know, in some ways it's like it's almost as if, you know you see, it's like, oh my gosh, there are all of these uh, roads connecting cities. Ee, as a big city, am concerned that folks are going to leave and becoming competitive with these other cities. In fact, what you saw is that there was a birth of interstate commerce, which LED to every city in the united states, growing as soon as they ve got logged into the interstate highway system.

And IT wasn't like, oh, no, i'm concerned that everyone is going to start driving to my neighboring city to go like, buy bed bread from a Baker there or like, that's not how IT worked. What what happened is that there is a positive some outcome because interstate commerce blossomed and everybody got Better and the economy got stronger. So I think it's the same kind of story here. It's like you you go to the bell carvin and you like, oh, and doing work oh, I got this now there's like we're competitive DNA ics, then you keep going down and realized, no, the completed dynamics are not are allowing people to specialize and do what they do best and benefit from everybody else doing what they do best. And so yeah, that's just analogy.

I think this kind of fits into what my understanding is of both the authorities, like economic zone goals, the north star, if you will, for all of these economic zones, but also a just grow GDP, just grow the economy and make the on chain economy the largest economy in the world.

The internet is the Virginia developing economy that we all get to invest in and to whichever ecosystem grows their GDP the most a is is going to like win, but also take other GDP with IT as well. Uh, ban Andrew, this has been a fantastic congratulations to the super chain for getting another very large centralized exchange on chain. Andrew, uh, congrats to crack in for making such a big leap into the world of the on chain economy.

Well, been a long journey. Thank you.

Yeah, the the on train announcement, the wall at the crash, B, D, C, uh, ink now, uh, what any anymore what else you guys have?

Um okay, I will say I will say that uh, beginning in q one, a lot of our development and everything's going to be on the open. So we want our wallet is already on get hub. Um but like everything that we're doing, we want just completely out in the open. So as then was saying, like if you want alpha, you just go to read read some code that .

you won't to me on the podcast.

I have to go actually .

go to the the new claud .

will do IT for you anyway.

Andrew, just one more time give us to the details on test net and main net.

So today is the announcement of just the partnership of like what the hell cracking on is doing and why we moved on. Chain test net comes out at devon. Uh, the entire ink teams gone to be there with a lot of other functions at cracking, and we're going to be running a hacker house there.

Know have some of our partners come along and and show off some of the tooling we've made and how people could build and then made IT. Not a firm date, but definitely like early q one. We just want to get this testa out there experiment and then get that out there as early.

So the test time period of time is for is there call for developers for for hackers, if if you want to do something on, then you like go talk to Andrew. Or is there a link we can put in the short for this?

yes. So a in chain dot com is going to be, uh and IT um IT should be me, should be live any minute and then uh the there's discord links, there's s twitter links, our telegram telegram ges for announcements but you can find me in this cord um you'll see ink A K uh from my initials. You can um you know pink me any time there i'm going to be very open to check with any builder, everybody else that's a spokesperson or moderator there.

We all want to check with builders. And so again, with like we also have this kind of incubator, you know incubator with A K uh uh program that we're gona have you come on, we have to we have to lead into the the ink. Um so we're going to have that running to where we really want some like projects that maybe haven't deployed IT to reach out and talk to us. Um we want to incubate you know as many as we can to get over ink.

It's awesome, is a great so so developers go check, check that out. Ink on chain IT was a document entry.

点点 com。

So I have a link to chanel. Protect that out, of course users. This will be available sometime in Q N.

I. I just want to end with this. But just by saying you like when I move, been work with crack for a while. You guys have been as supporting us as strategic sponsors. We're just like freking proud of you.

Like how far you guys have have come in kind of your bank's journey and moving things on, gene, I mean, the role out of a non custodial what is absolutely huge. Of course, crackin has never failed. Been there since twenty twelve.

Proof of reserves the whole time you never fail. Crypt a and now you're moving to kind of like, you know, back development with I think you're ethics and your ethos in your value system, which was getting more and more crypt or native. And i've seen that directory from you.

I had hoped for a long time even, and I had hope, hope for a long time that there would be a crack in l two. Uh and now there is. So you guys are doing a fantastic job. Um well done. We're just proud work with you guys.

I remember when we had a Jesse on right after the collapse of F T X H. And he was like, yeah, don't keep your money on centralize exchanges and saying that as the founder of a centralized exchange, I thought was pretty cool and and now there is a layer two for users to go put their money on, which all all comes for circle .

yeah that's why, that's why so many people stay at cracking for for such a long time. We have so many og s that have just been here for lic decade, and it's because of those values in no, no, we don't view that is like this world garden type thing is like oh go know make crypt o trade fire.

I don't think A A lot of us about that um but yeah one one quick final thing is I remember back in east dear earlier in the in the year, you guys both were hunting for some of her from us here. Come on, give us we know you guys are doing something on chain. What is that and where we're just kind of like shy then of like what we're experimenting, I don't know. Um but yeah it's been .

a earning now I an to anna next week I job there. So Andrew band to spend such a pleasure. Thanks for joining us today.

Go well, here we go. Got IT. And with this, one of this has been financial advice, but now we're going fully bank less with crack in, which is pretty exciting.

Gott, let you know. Crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in. But we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad here with us on the banker's journey. Thanks a lot.