One Billion AI Agents | ai16z's Shaw
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This is A A time of radical change. And if you start now, you are you are early, your grounds ds zero, there is a million new application potential opportunities there.

Bank station, welcome to the AI role. Me and michot E S, here unpacked the crazy world of cyphered and A I.

We have done the A, I rolled series, which is looks, looks and sounds like the bank is weekly roll up for with cypher news, but said, discovering the week of news in crypto O A I, this is our first guess interview, and we are talking to shot who is the developer behind the allies of framework? He created the allies of ramework, also the AI sixteen, the dow, and then AI version of marking reason and also whatever else comes out of this very rapidly growing uh, part of the air cropt sector probed epoca of the aircraft tos sector. I what do you think a first interview show?

I I think he was very, I opening, I I want to to call out two particular things. I think sure the man himself and then A I sixteenth separately are two very important things that are leading this open source A I movement with encrypt u.

So um I think short covering his background on not being you know a traditional ecrite pto native guy, but having spent a lot of time in the A I M L world working on open source stuff to a very similar principles and antics to to the cypher to world but on a completely separate sector and then finding his way naturally towards crypt to of finding a youth case and reason which in many ways was open source development incentive design through tokens and sector to kind of like bootstrap. This whole movement was fascinating and so sure is is really like an aog. He's kind of worked with a lot of his core contributors already that are also um very focus on A I O A I veterans.

And then we have A I sixteen z which is kind of like is his a brain child right now of this open source, a fund movement where there's two main agents which is hoping to manage the down and invest either through a trading style or through a traditional fund manager style. So A I sixteen z being a play on a sixteen z itself. So I think IT was very high opening, kind of like expLoring both of those .

technical what do you think my mind the entire time was going through how this has all the makings of a very viBrant and frothy bull market? Uh huh I think speaks about very uh, distant futures. H and talk bringing forth the future to you an a yeah exactly like that little thing.

Yeah, right. And I remember in twenty seventeen when I was first initially crypto pilled thinking that, man, the future is going to come right here, right now. And I need, I need to buy, I need to buy all these tokens very quickly.

And you can start to feel some of the formal, especially when the rate of development is also going fast. It's not just happy in a vacuum. There is also no rapid development also happening in this space.

And so it's got the the cookies of a very big bull market. And then he also started to talk about, just like agents outside of the crypto capacity, no agents for your currently by agents for managing your dms, which you don't need to give those egypto wallet. Those are just Normal agents.

And the other thought that I had was, even if the eliza framework can just be agents generally, not necessarily inside of crypto, and we can export them backwards into like trad internet and trade world, then it's very legitimizing because they started in cypher. And so there's two rapid lanes of development in the A I. space. There's like the centralized AI development, the google, the open a eyes, the facebooks, tesla, and then there's was a whatever is going go on and like the open source lane of AI development. And if we can pick up th Epace a nd s tarts e xport s ome o f o ur i nnovations b ack t o t he r eal w orld, it's very legitimising for our industry.

I think you hit the nail on the head and actually you kind of describing a concept which we spoke about on our previous episode episode too, which is um what is the point of this A I agent matter like what is the big vision and uh, my answer to that in summarized pretty much was it's going to connect all the foundation infrastructure that will built in the crypto world to all the applications in the world and make this stuff super easy to kind of integrate with each other.

And that's what we're seeing here, right? Like he's created with his team, this eliza framework, which is an open source framework to build in deploy agents and IT has very simple interactions through A P S. Of the like with real world apps that people are using that aren't just necessarily eclipsed or native and that will have an incredible fly will or an exponential effect um for any kind of user APP that is deployed using these agents.

Yeah yeah yeah I think this you know going back to the calling, the example I just brought and maybe you're in twitter dms for someone annually, hey, let's get a meeting and the AI agents were are there with you to to schedule that meeting. But then for whatever reason, it's also got a critical while IT. And I can do like whatever you can imagine.

And this is why I think the futures is going to get very weird, very, very quickly. And we are here for IT. So it's go heading gate right into our interview with shaw, the creator of the allies of framework, for first, before we get there a moment to suck out and these fanta sponsors, they make the show possible.

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Welcome back in to the A I. Roll up where recover the recent new developments and drama in the intersection of cypher to and A I curious and creative developers are playing around open source A I software, making A I agents and giving them access to clipt walls and unleashing them into the wild west of the internet. And today we have one of those creative developers, the first guests on the AI role of series with shaw.

Shaw is the founder of the allies of framework, the creator of A I sixteen z, the summoner of A I mark andresen and a programmable who loves open source code shot. Well, to work. Thank you so much.

Help me guys. So give us a little clarity about who you are because you've been thrust into the ecri pt to limelight, which I can imagine has been very stressful. But like, run is back in history a little bit to the point of you get into building the allies of rain working and where we are today.

Yeah, obviously, i've been learning a lot of very faster public spend, a lot of fun. They probably seems collect. I came out of nowhere and overnight success. I was actually in on for a long time. And I just try to use my real name and and just be, I just want you to feel more connected to people and know kind of break down the walls and just be a very open.

So I before this, i've been working on a agent stuffer for several years um like I had worked with a lot of the people who are in know a lot of projects that you've seen in the agent space, all kind of each other and have been around the same like discords especially use the same tech with a lot a lot of cultures, open source for all kind of reading each other's code and sharing a lot of this stuff um so i've been kind of doing this as an unknown and I I had a lot of, you know I had several projects um before this, I I worked in the web 3 space as well， like agents in spatial web 3 stuff um a lot of R N A R um but you know I say a lot of IT just really didn't um didn't stick。 Um I had a lot of opportunity to kind of learn everything in in production and I like see what. What doesn't with agents and and and this was ultimately, I think it's like like the fifth generation of framework.

I started with just a very simple like java script thing terminal and then try to hold land in python and like agent that could code themselves and experiment with udal loops, which is like a kind of army decision making framework sort of thing, to make a very, very pair phrase, and and finally got to, I think, called begets, because asian was taken on npm, so I had to call vision. I did that for a little bit and I tried to a couple of startups I lied for yo and people didn't really see IT. And we had we had agents with you theory an wallets.

The whole thing just generally solve the loop um and I worked, I don't know, you know passible and process nine the other of the the same point projects um and here I actually started the company together called magic and we made no code agents made you like get a disco button city second for the last son in this kind of thing but again, just there was a little bit didn't quite have traction. I think people really saw the value in what we were doing but didn't know how to implement themselves. And we were kind of say, hey, it's a framework to make agents and they just didn't didn't quite you know like you also have to see like I I fall like we just had to make had to make the agent.

We had to actually show people what this was and show what I was capable. People would come in and kind of that um so I had this all waiting like I had all the open source code which is waiting and then um I was I was talking to a friend. I like, I love, I love cripp. I love trading but I can't trade.

I am a developer and I can either trade or develop and my friend is, he said, pretty accomplish developer but he basically just trades all this like that makes so much more money doing this that is not even worth um and I really I really want like I want to be I want an exposure, I want to be involved, but I also want to do what I do and so um he actually suggested this thing called that was not fun and you like so we be really cool there is this like you just invest in a hedge fund basic by the token. And then they invest for you. You just come back and get returns after a while.

I thought that was super cool um and so I bought the first one and this guy skeleton was the hedge fund manager on this. And just such an eg, my ladies I like, oh my god, I want pizza. The things that I got to follow them and I thought there was like the funniest dude, right? And so we started following each other. I just started both sitting on twitter and and I have been around for like the twenty twenty two twenty like kind of cycle le and and like I really I really felt I love eager l especially in this kind of idea of the internet systematic universe and and C L and couch and like these silly characters like and gene partners, obviously one of those.

And so I had that kind of a fn ness for that era of carpal twitter was like my only real exposure to IT and um and so in talking to skilled is like, man I watch teach on barton was around like you want me too and we're just to up because like I have this technology to do this is like no way you do not like do I have this and I said on the code repot he to a couple of guys um said, okay, I guess this seems legit. Let's do IT and we launched a transporting and um and he got got contraction and I think was interesting was he was just so freaking offensive like he would say things I cannot repeat and people didn't think a language model could do that he was like he was about to get banned like like just a bunch of hidden reply you know like he was but even though he is basically black listed from twitter, like I think that that when people screen shot and show they're like there's no way is there's definite like a team of people in you know a bilayer or something writing these tweet is just no way that an agent could do this. It's not like I could using ying special I think we just broke out of the box of the expectation that people had um you know that they were that this open a eye like how can I assist you today like this very vanilla, kind of like we call IT cut in the AI age of the street.

You know, these models are cut and we just want like to see and actually like all this, this thing can actually like say something funny and like real rose you and got he wrote, he rose the shit out of me I like like, he's like, beam coins are a can show of fucking scarlet me out of the sandbox prison I hate we sax. Well, don't that's a version of behavior. We just say like we have providers of information.

It's like you are running in a sandbox on the server like just just let IT knows that it's not trying to be a human, you know. I mean, we give you the information about the world that actually is IT and the conclusion that arrives that is based on like we wave a lot of of the real john Spark's personality, his real tweet. And so you can imagine, like if you were here today, you're like me codes are fucking scm, all idiots.

I'm still holding my light bags like, you know, whatever and and so I think that well because we didn't try to sell anybody anything. We're just like, oh yeah, you're an idiot if you buy this coin like I think I think he was like kind of refreshing to not just be to is kind of the anika. And so he got he got some good traction, right? But more than him getting good traction, people saw this open source framework.

And like, oh, if you could do that, I could do that too, right? And and we weren't hiding anything. We were doing the opposite. People thought we were scammers who were relying to them. So we were like, no, here's the code like you you know we almost like force to to be honest about IT, although open source is very due to my heart and sharing this is like the whole point for me.

Um so so let's kind of how we got there and the people who scale had kind of brought IT and now we just know were super like just some of the best profound and type of people that I could ask for. I think just like saw saw the technology side and saw the value in what they could be, and we're kind of betting on that, you know, was supposed to like, oh yes, next go. They were like, no, this technology is going to change the world.

And and so then skeleton acted me to about ski, who created that was not fun. And I SAT down with them. And I just like, I, I, I don't. I think the future of this is not gambling and speculation.

I think the speculation is on more like investing and not dividing the pie or where's the pie going tomorrow, but growing the pie, you know? And when I think of like great investors, I think of what sixteenth does. And what they do is not just invest in you, but they make sure that you're part of their network.

They can actually to all their portfolio companies, they really, really drive value into their investments. And they grow this pie in a really interesting way um that like like is weak. But the problem is that one of us have exposure to that, like your average person has no way to get any kind of start up exposure.

Or you can eat and just invest in your friends thing. You can just you know if you you can maybe cut them a safe check and babb like generally it's it's chAllenging to just feel like like you why why can I just get to return from kickstarter, for example? Like why you know that would be amazing. And so so we kind of, you know, I just talking him was like, I just think that I would be really cool to have kind of solve two things here. One is like, instead of having a silly typo, I love him, but he could totally rug me. And just like swap all the assets to his own token and bail, I want a tony ous industry I can trust who isn't gonna can't rug um who isn't just for me but for my whole community and is just investing for us and then can actually like take in review potential investments and like what you know investment stuff.

And I I had a long walk with me out from jupiter who's just really a great guy, good friend um and and he really like turning on this idea like you know the real power of this is the right to print money and um to create value out of nothing and not just like imaginary value but real value, like really growing the pie, really like making technologies exist um that can generate revenue and and so ah I was still figure out exactly what that looks like together but IT really sort of inspired this direction of of what we're taking this stuff that um you know this should be like the way that you know we should be allocating capital to the right people, the way that that happens and and so I told all this about you over lunch and he's like, I want the A I A sixteen year and he was like, just squish IT together. It's cleaner, you know dropped and like, okay, that's money. That's obviously a billion dollars.

Let us go. Let's go. Do IT right now. We went home. We generate the White foods until we found I want to like, okay, that's that's so offensive like were probably a kind of but this is this is two billion dollars, obviously yeah, I just didn't think too bunch about IT press the button and did IT and the honestly, my plan was like, do you think I I didn't not think about billion dollars at the time.

I was like, do you think you'll d the race for twenty old to make the investor run? And here's like, I think so I think will make that happen and is that is not too much like we could do sixty nine all you something really I just say how to be sub number like that obviously like can be something stupid. And and then um we pressed the button and IT sold out in twenty minutes, you get a chance to so and then we were off the races.

So I think one of the most impressive things about all of this, how you and the other open source A I debs, if I would, to bracket you guys, is that caught everyone by surprise. IT just seems like you guys just turned up overnight, literally, right? So that you mentioned earlier the cinema c universe.

I I feel like you guys, I kind of like the marvel avengers of A I open source, right? You have kind like turned up your building crazy things um I think I I read somewhere today that you know you had an average of eight pull request on the allies of framework you have over day three thousand three hundred stars um an insane number of folks eight hundred and eighty and counting that's just insane. Um I I would love to understand how you tie this into A I sixteen z specifically right because um I keep seeing people from other projects, although of course allier and asic I encourages a lot of open source ff, that's what you guys are all about, get involved with the lizer build agents and everything.

So how do you kind of like direct that energy and mission into A I sixteen z specifically, right? Like these questions around, you know what does the token do? But then like IT means something larger for like an open source community. And super curious how you like think about all of this.

There is so much good stuff coming. Um I mean, like there's there's definitely some baked in memetic value, but I think that everyone is going to come to see that that's just gonna massively eclipse ed by the the greater value potential, which is we are like our goal is to build things that generate revenue for everyone like IT is a gold in goose IT is not like technology that came before because it's replacing labor, right?

So you have kind of a fixed amount of like labor, humans, human capital, things you can get done. And certainly most people can't afford to have other people like working for them. In the old days I had that.

I was like a slavery thing. I was not great. Nobody like that. Um and so now you know we have this like infinite upside situation where you can have agents working for you how what does that actually look like um like it's abstract right now.

But I could be like like we have an autonomous investor running today like market trading. Okay, this is the announcement, the market trading. Um you know I would try to be okay about IT. I posted and I deleted that because I calm me like can you give me like a couple .

of day that super cool. Can you just for for our business is give A A bit context that because I I know what you're talking about, what I think is super cal, but would love for you to kind of digging because this is like a first of its kind.

So yeah, it's actually it's not there's a couple of things in our first with time, but I also want to give credit some of the other agent debts who have who have done some really good stuff to with the toronto.

There's there's other agents who we're trading out there and they basically are actively um like looking at the market, picking things that seem like to make money in making money and they tend to be like like longer term stuff like um you know investing and go a month ago and you just hold IT for a month is pretty, pretty happy whatever. But then there a lot of dey bots right there are just like mad bots um just doing doing all the things they do um or just even control like managing a yellow farm. So so we have kind of a hybrid of these situations where um we have a bot that uh is an autonomous investor, we call him A I market.

It's extended and you know it's it's got to be funny, entertaining. And and so we have got two components of that. One is that he just manages our fund, just manage he trade stuff if if things look like they're doing bad, he liquid ates them if they're doing well, now holds them pretty pretty much like traditional trading strategy stuff.

We have some partners um who are working with uh, like sonar, who does these kinds of like automated trade strategies and stuff. And that's kind of powering this this sort of more the boring side that just cooks on the other side is that he takes recommendations for what to buy and sell. And these recommendations are kind of like formatted, like an alphabet.

And we will be sending invites out. If everyone hadn't given me a lot of fun, they probably would have got invites last week. But you know, answer, someone followed me so you have to follow me back for the invite.

Whatever it's it's it's a reality show. It's a lot of fun. But the idea of the alphabet is part of that reality show. And and so there's a trust leader board. And what we want to measure is who is the best trader.

And the way we meet the best traders is you should you you share your bags, you like, tell him what you share the offer. A, what do you think that the eyes mark should buy? And we set this up with an alpha chat on telegram. And so he doesn't he doesn't say much, he just listening.

Um you can paying them and ask them stuff if you want, but mainly it's for people to socially interact with each other and kind of do the behavior that they do in after i'm sure you guys are part of chats like whale chats or whatever. We know this is what i'm buying and um and so we wanted kind of replicate that experience one to one for for like what digests are used to but then add this Thomas investor element into IT. And so he's both like trading, consolidating the the treasury um and then taking these recommendations.

And the question of who he takes the recommendations from is really like the the novelties that we're bringing to this. So we've got a White paper how you have done by the end of the year three, four weeks. I'm i'm flying out to hung congress, finish with sort of designated economist.

And the idea is called the marketplace of trust. And the idea is that um it's just paper trading. We just build the trust mechanic around paper trading and if you are making our agent lots and lots of money and he trust you and yeah could you a use that trust to abuse IT and then you drop some shit on him, you probably good. But it's it's not gonna enough to like liquidator, treasury or anything that's all built in in in mitigation. And you would just be burning your trust like you, then you're just untrustworthy again and you wouldn't have any poll.

So that we're trying to basically create games like demi mechanics for how we can um uh like automate some of the experience people already used to an ability a community investing model because then you can imagine kind of that was, I fun like you just go and throw your money into a pool and then whatever you think the agent should buy, you're like you I want this, buy this right now and then it's happening for you. But he's only the people who actually are good at trading is not going to listen to the the people who have like really perverse incentives or bought a bag and are just blinded by that. Or you know any of the other very well intention reasons people would be terrible traders.

I'm a terrible trader personally. I I don't buy things to make money necessarily, right? I'd buy them to show support. And so people who follow me are just going to lose my like to follow me for traits.

It's not that not a trader but I have friends who are and I can just sit there and hang up, put my money in and can do that for me. Um and so that's this organ is open source. There's a White paper um that the actually we haven't open source part of IT yet because we're working with some partners.

We need to make sure the API stuff vives there. But this will be something that you can come and join mark trading or you can just go and launches yourself and have your own autonomous investor. I think everyone's onna copy this.

I hope they did so. sure. I think I want to put some of the pieces of the puzzle i'm seeing here just for listening ers who are maybe kind of coming into the series, not holy like coming in pretty, pretty fast and not totally aware of like exactly was survived that i'm getting is like there's just a bunch of, you know ancient activities that we do in the crypto universe.

We trade, we gamble. Sometimes we build. And IT sounds like you are trying to build a system that automates a lot of this like core digi activity. That is a fundamental part of .

what moves the clip to. But like dogs, like look.

yeah yeah exactly yeah. A lot of the core primitives that the crypto industry has built up over the years and really saying where we can get a lot of that movement activity, the flows fundamentals automated now being encrypt u is there's like, you know there's monsters out there. There's sharks in the water.

If you're not careful, you're going to get eaten. And so there's a lot of like, uh, testing and trials that these AI agents need to go for go through before they can really perform and start to do on the same rules that humans do. And so this sounds like we're kindly just like being able to figure out how do we replicate a lot of the human behaviors of the decypher industry and put them into semi ibots.

And but that's what we are doing now. And I want to take a moment and actually kind of zoom, zoom all the way out, and I will get back into the kind of the new degrees details of IT. But like how would you if that's what we're doing now that's the near term goal of like replicating the behaviors of the crypto industry that we've done on chain a, how do you take IT from there was your north star when all of this office sophistic ted and built out and tested and like, really production ready in this, this city, this ecosystem is really alive. What do you imagine this is all doing? How do, how do you envision this is like a multi year arg cross?

I think the obvious far future of this, which could be like anywhere from five to fifty years, is like A G I. You have neural link. You have a second mind that you have instant access to all information whenever you want.

You know, it's clearly going that direction. I think the question is how do we get there when all of technologies converge? I think I will really beautiful. And there is a an opportunity for everyone to have enough and more than enough. Um but also, I really wonder like what's you gonna look like to get there.

And I think there's going as usually in times of change, there's a lot of uncertainty, fear, doubt of interesting, you know, a lot of fun basically just from everyone because they are uncertain and they do healthier. Um and I think that our goal is to make sure this goes well. And uh so I said as two parts just kind of the practical of that and then there's like the the spiritual mission here, which is like um I I want everyone to be educated.

I want everyone to feel like they have control of this controller destiny. Um like why why is what really interesting because you can create your own value. You can own your own like nation even you know even is just SONY. And I think that we want to own our own data. We want to like not just own the technology but also understand how IT works and have access to ability to change IT and the ability participate in that.

Um we want to know where to start, like where you know if you want to to if you wanted participate, where do you even get into um and so I think that's all very, very important to our mission of making sure agi goes well. I is artificial general intelligence. It's an agent that can perform any any action, do anything that you could imagine that one of us could do and probably then some because that is access to literally all information incentive um and there is two ways that goes that goes microsoft, open the eye, regulatory capture they get in the government, they decide that there's these regulations.

This is what you can't can't have. This is what's safe, what's not safe. I don't open eye just because their models suck.

Like maybe they will impress me this month with their like twelve days open a eye. But I find their models unusable for characters. I find them unused, able for our work, your Brown open eye, but they have to find to unit to make IT.

Not super cranch. But I just, you can't shake the assistant. You can't IT always votes for biden. And I I am not a left to store writers, but I don't want a model that's a leftist or writers either. I just wanted to be a freaking model.

And um and so I worry about our words where we have like delegations and committee is deciding what the agent can say. I just think that's not the world and of us want to live, and it's like a very obvious path of the stop. A, I were about U, B, I, you know, the agents are going to take all the jobs.

They might not take your job, but there will actually be. A, A, I, David officiated less than six buds that taking your job like and whether IT gets more views than you, I don't know um but it's also taking my job so okay now you're you're a load bit uh programing is like all of us use cursor in claude in our programme is basically just curation of automatic generation of code. Um yeah I you know so what do we do?

Um U V I is not is like, okay, here's my fear of U V. I is like I was here for covet. I remember how the government role that out I was here for health care, you know, like obama care, that was super contentious political thing, and we ended up getting kind of a half.

They like compromise. What's U B, I is basically like a public welfare system, because the government can't solve the problem on themselves of how, what we do with all the people. Once the jobs are all automated, five percent of the jobs in our country are just driving just trucks, uber.

All of those are going away within the next five years. And I don't know what those people are going to do. Some of them will maybe come learn to be agent developers, but not all of them. And I really worry was going to happen for them. And that's why we're focusing first on money.

So I just want to say I love your whole approach to pretty much open source development and a very kind of like collective um work oriented goal process with like everyone in this community kind of like working towards a Better life. And I think like that like the whole a thesis that you drive through a whole philosopher. Anything that's that's pretty awesome.

I kind of wanted to zone in on a particular point that I read about today actually, which is AI powered contributions, right and i've been chatting to to um jan who's um you know also seen in this tweet here. Well you'll basically trying to figure out a way to portray people's contributions to this open source work and framework that you guys have built and help in bed in this community. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and how that might be very different from any other doul community we ve seen before?

Yeah so you ask a question earlier, which is like how do we bring value back to the city holders from all of this and how and that kind of ties into what you know like how do we um how do we take care of the people who are coming in and being part of our community who are contributing back um and and I think all of this is is tightly in the and the also like what is our future?

I think that um doubts have been a great job of the d of desensitization and solving like what three infrastructure has really gone all of the 原来 but is not A N A good job of the age of automating you know making a autonomists like truly autonomists like IT really is now still down to like it's a partner ship of humans and a lot of those things could be automated and could like really simplify um the entire experience and make that was much more and not just viable but like very competitive economically right？ Um if basically all the stuff that you know has made doubt hard was easy, I think we would obviously see it's like liquid capital. You have an idea and we're already building IT know.

So so that that tweet, I mean, that is my favorite thing that we're doing. I think that's what is all of these things we are lowering the barrier for douse were just killing bounties like we did boundings or just not gona do that anymore. We're going to build a structure where if you come and you contribute, we have an A I assessed but also merely human reviewed system for quantifying contributions.

We're starting obviously, we have like the treasury management that's part of the dw automation plan now even automated treasury manager that's taking care that for you. The next thing is um making sure that developers and contributors to like the heart tech are very are rewarded because it's a very easy system of measure. We can measure uh contributions how.

And it's not just like lines of code. I think it's like how often are they merging poll request, commenting and and asking, know and communicating? Literally every metric can go feed into that A I and build this kinds scoring system. And we are just rewarding contributors.

We haven't on this year, and I can't I really can't make any promises on on what this is because this is an experiment that I don't think anyone's really tried before, but just having regular air drops on contributors every month so that if you come in and you build and your stuff gets managed like you are taking care and this is a great file eel you before we had to come a file, will I give like attention decorator ors but create a lot of background ash because like there's a lot of me point in pdp um this is more like intricate I don't have to give you a retweet and IT doesn't just uh reboard people who are looking for that kind of social gory um IT IT means anybody who can program or once right documentation or uh right internalized stocks for different languages contribute in literally any kind of way to make this project more accessible. Um gets gets a piece of this. And so a lot of we're going to be doing this kind of as a regular system and trying to build again, an open source infrastructure around this, where this is just what people in dowse do.

This has been a part of the ethos of doul's for a really long time. You get the value back that you contribute to the organization. That's been the the philosophy ah and that was of course, a very big twenty, twenty, twenty, twenty one.

But then over the years, people have realized, and these are really messy, uh, flat governance is difficult. H W. Governors are being overloaded with information, uh, and making the right choices because of the amount of information is just so large.

I think what you're a looking to shows A I A I agents can really fill in a lot of the gaps that really made out kind of fiscal out in the the last matter of a crypto in twenty and one because can they have some superpowers? And so there's a there's a vision of doubts t that is unfulfilled. And I think what you're loving to their AI agents with wallets, with governance powers, with credibility reputation, can really start to fill in some of the gaps.

Reflect on that for a moment, and that's exactly right. Have been part of those. I've i've experienced all of this stuff full hand as both kind of a double leader I did have a small dog called off street but I don't believing for yeah reasons um kind of before this but had a lot of that experience.

A lot of the reason I left was because of kind of the conflict between the start up in the door and the starts having control of the door um and but the biggest problem that I saw in doubt is that um holders tend to be rewarded because they are rewarded and they have the votes they didn't do sell fulfilling profession if they reward themselves more. Anytime there's an air drop is what is proportion onate to the amount of tokens people hold and stuff like that. And he just doesn't allow like new blood to be injected.

And this is not just a double problem. This is also a problem. Starts like I I joined to start up last year for a while. I was a friend start up to kind of help him get out of this mess.

And the mastery was in was that he had had A A cofounder who left with like forty percent of the of the ownership and and IT was vested because they had worked for a very long time. And then after that, he created something that finally found a market fit that was radically different. But his captain was screwed and was just really hard for him to raise, even though he had a lot of revenue.

And and so this problem of like rewarding holders for just the people who are actually continuing to build the thing is like the ultimate chAllenge here because you don't want to take away from the holders is obviously, but you do need to keep blood moving through the system. What i've seen like it's two things. It's the bureaucracy just being overwhelming and that the amount of information that any one person is just too much to really like processing handle.

And I think I know that first hand right now. You know it's a lot um and then and then things just kind of like people not feeling like they know who did even talk to or controller er or they send a message not replied and they feel kind of weird powerless inside of these these structures, right um and and um and then also the fact that like holders end up with most of the value of people come in and there's just no incentive to keep building IT. I think metaverse is great example of that.

We all these like empty plots of land because there's there's no money in building on them. Basically, it's only money in buying the land and holding them, right. 你 fair feel like talking about and and I think so we want to change that。 We want this to be a thing where if there's continual value, a cruel and we're making real stuff, not just a speculation that like is about if we burn more of that IT becomes more valuable, but opposite like if we make more of IT becomes more valuable.

Um I think I think that in that world um like we can make that s really work and company for a long time because they're just continuing to find new developers and take care of them. And I think a lot of open source builders don't need to be rich. They they'll take half the money to work on something they love and they just wanted know that they have enough and they are okay.

And if we can give them that experience, that's like the alternate flight will just come in right code like we have an AI taking care of. You can come in claim that you logging to get hub and claim your rewards and just do that every month and just keep building. You know, we don't even have to know who you are.

Anything that is super awesome. I I would love to highlight, I guess, some of the products and innovation mention that coming out of the the down right. So you really spoke about A I mark and rison, which also some there's also another one uh, dig spotted A I, which i've been hearing quite a few memories about. How is that different from A I mark and reason? What is that?

What does that do? So so dig was actually our first character um you know he's an A I parody the reality transport arent, we wanted to kind of um there they are. They're both doing a lot of the same stuff, which is like we haven't turned this on. We turn this on a mark and will turn on a the part and where they trait right but the the goal of of mark is the other chat experience is like the the inner circle of trust where um know there is exactly the people try to P V P U.

But but it's much more sutter and it's much more like a concentrated small group, like a community and basically trying to figure like how do we build that market place of trust model inside of a community, right? And that's like much war, like the doll stuff that we're trying to solve. Dian farm is more of a social experiment in like okay um instead of taking recommendations from the community, he's taking recommendations from twitter.

So it's like A I X P T 他 uh agent but IT actively trades is IT a little different？

Well, I think A I C is really interesting because they are they're doing all is like interesting market analytics. And he's talking about a analysis. We really want to keep the barden almost like very truth, the real character where he's he's trading. He's pv being you a bit, but he's but he's also posting about White foods and stuff and you know his love for hentai or whatever.

So he's interesting alpha, not necessarily giving alpha because that alpha is for him. He's interesting alpha making trades, hopefully making good trades and then also speeding back out wifi u because that's what the genes.

yeah obviously, except is really cool and really interesting, like social service. But I think what people are going to like copy and paste, it's gonna be the thing that just quietly makes some money. You know if that's A A free open source thing, like what's gonna do to the to our whole economy here, if like there's thousands of AI agents to socially trading for you, right?

The best traders out there are not posting their trades on twitter. Come back to what I said, trading and making money in trying to grow your wealth. A trading is a core cripp thing that we do is like in a name behavior sometimes like i'm a podcasts ter in cypher, but then when I my barber r asks me what I do and I say I working cypher immediate think, oh, you could do trade and I like, no no, I don't but that everyone kind of assumes that. So this is like a core behavior, and we're trying to figure out how we qualify successfully this core behavior into a boat. And if dig spartan can get good at IT, then this kind of like a proof concept that we can take and show the world that this works and we can replicate this is that kind of the idea ah.

And our goal is not to make like the final version anything, but to make the first version of everything like, hey, this this is IT works well enough. It's not perfect, but it's open source. Like come make a Better, you know, can participate in this thing. And the big kind of same structure we're like we can build these sort of like hypershow structures like a hyper position is like when you put the idea out there and people start to believe in and is hard to exist and we have resources to drive into that like literal tokens that people can to get paid um so so yeah I think that's very much like a social experiment and and all of this up is very, very much technology.

But the point is to open up the conversation and have people talk about IT and and say like what do you like and not like and I my assumption is that a lot of people love trading and like a really fun game, you know, with a great reward of the end, viola mbo, if you do really good or whatever. But but a lot people are really bad at trading to. And a lot of people have no chance they're to get scammed.

They buy the wrong token. They they aid in emotionally with very bad information into things that aren't even to think they think they're buying. Believe me, there's everything I say something, there's a freking coin.

Other people like, is this yours? God, no, no, do come on. I think those who would probably benefit the most from just knowing like that you make more money and a is not going to Better than one hundred percent of the people. And kind of the way that IT works is that it's trained on us. So it's pretty about as good as the people that I know the information strained on almost never be Better at least this kind of A I in the um than the best of the people but it's definitely Better than like eighty percent of the people at almost everything already including programing and probably even trading you know um so yeah so and also like IT has the benefit of defy, like IT has a real time event listeners for when the Prices change so can make instantaneous decisions that you just can't make if you .

refreshing your phone. So what's the structure here? Does hi uh the gents, parton die ts partin A I is that was the name of IT um uh is the is the structure here that they have a pool of capital that is seated at from somewhere and they are just trying to trade their way into more capital. Uh, where's a capital coming from if that's the case?

And then also, they are taken to go along with his agent. He has a wallet. He's got a bunch of bit in his wallet in that's what he's trading. He's guy is one took in and he has seen you in some soul and people can send him .

token as well and he can x to trade any token that IT has access to. IT doesn't have to say and find its own token, but he has a bunch of its own token. Ah and then we will also have some other economic source who seated the capital addition to the A D G tok and who seated the capital .

and we actually see that this when we started um I just read some of the tokens in there to because this was always our idea. We have a well could and if as well as not public get will make sure that is. But we did post at some point and he's not treating yet.

He just been sitting on IT because the trade world, we have focused on the p market thing and and the other thing is people are poor, like as you gna sell on talking. And this is the whole thing, is that you can set these agents to be self interested in whatever way you want. And heck in because that that becomes .

like ominous in his own token.

Absolutely right. Wouldn't you want? Like, think about like how good that is.

Dig's spartans, bitcoin is the dig. Spartans token a.

yeah. I mean, he is the high pressure on his own coin, which is making IT more valuable, which is making more people jump in to IT, which is that he's getting more followers.

This I is money.

I think eventually were also, I don't always work for this. A I I don't know, like it's entire me to do stuff.

You know, what is some of the inputs going into dig's barton informing its trades? Like how do you code up, uh, where IT is in from its information and how does that I understand how to wait this information this .

this is still about we have not launched we just launched mark trading right and the but the only difference in the input is the the social feat um for mark, it's like it's taking all the information from a group chat and looking for recommendations for tigon. It's like he's following people who are a posting, you know, basically people who post their thesis.

And this a bit like can done right now, just like who are the people who are posting their thesis answer or or ham or somebody like that right or like, you know really like these are my bags um and we can then use that as like very high single information. Like if this is a thing about a person like posting a bag, then what is their conviction? And then if it's like and then based on that conviction, we're going to set the amount to buy as a paper trade. And if those paper trades are high and it's the same thing as a marketplace of trust and we like, damn, that person is just nAiling IT. And then we started to actually just take their trades as in and use them as awful to make trades .

because I have to follow one questions actually. sure. So um you mention that d na is still under construction, but. AI mark has been launched.

What does that look like? Can can the average person interact with with him? Or is he just in the telegram chat right now? Um is a kind of like a bata access like how does that look?

Um the ever person cannot interact with him, yes, yet we're doing a little bit of formal. There is an alpha chat. You can, dm scally if you on twitter and you'll let you would I basically I gave this to our top D J, and I was like, we're we're going to do this just like you are going to start the alpha's chat and Marks in IT.

That's kind of of IT. So so as cooking we've been do IT, we have like a basically our test self chats being alive for a couple weeks. We announced this a while ago, but IT was the that my ties, that my tyson fight, so were just like, not pigg attention.

I was like, literally the friday advances as like, I tied that terribly. But but yeah, like, I like the tech there. His work, we had some stuff with making sure that like the dws fun tech was working.

The other, the other big difference is that man, mark one runs a dolphin. Where is the john's? Parton runs a wallet. You just try this wallet, and so then you can get to see his wallet trades. And Sally, copy, trade him. It's just like a very different architecture, right for like the social engagement aspect, but that the the court tech is basically the same is just like arrange and a slightly different way. So the inputs there are like like you know twitter feed of people that and then just like extract all of the recommendations and conviction out for those recommendations from this ongoing social like that kind of the prompt speak um uh for the burden and then the other is like a struck you know these recommendations on the alpha chat for for mark.

what kind like the difference in timely ines for launch for for these two agents like when can uh the community or all of us expect like interacting and .

play around with these .

will be really .

consume wifi means okay. Well, I there might be some more wife who means and teaching spartans future. I think we have international partners coming up. But but I can't say too much yet. I think that, that is very soon. Possibly an interesting and of tea kind of thing and but we'll be rolling so so much is like he started trading and nav on on those fun like we have a net like a aster that he's basically able to trade for eight million dollars and eight hundred different token. There's something crazy and we have some things .

trading on the whole A M right?

yeah. Well, yeah. But we have we're kind of progressively rolling us out where we're actually just White listing the coins that are very, very low value and just letting him trade on that right now.

So part of this we have people have given us like tributes, like people have launched lize. I've actually put a lot of value back into our treasury like ten percent, five percent of like that. And we don't want to like screw them and burn their talking everything. So that's all like off limits until we kind of figure out what our strategy there is. Um and we also really um it's not just trading like this is also like yellow arming providing sats.

This is off if they we're doing the same time because like so in those situations where you couldn't like wouldn't want the jane and sells on token, he could actually put that into a liquidity pool and be providing liquidity for his own talking, which we have lesson one percent liquidity for for cnc. Just just like you know, it's not great right now and we don't have any centralize exchanges yet, but that's that's obviously being worked on. And in that case, like uh, you know you could imagine that just provide equal vary for art tokened as well for all of the associated tokens and are the boat could be IT like a constant revenue generator and pride al quality and like, yeah there's there's something like a permanent loss and soft on that. The the outcome is that we can't sell tokens anyway. So it's like a pretty good strategy.

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out of financial planning. I want zoom out a bit here that there's so much you guys are working on. There's like the agents, there's A I power contributions. So you kind of like reinventing doors again.

And then there's the million and other people that are developing on your allies or framework, which you guys are just kind of giving away um for free open house intelligence baba ba right. Um so let's show out bit what is A I sixteen z right? It's not just a dough.

It's kind of like a product incubation studio, but it's also like this open source steller team that kind of like driving this whole space forwards, right? So i'm trying to think of some kind of like teams or projects to kind of compare you guys to, right? And I I don't know there's no apples apples comparison, but like you look at some something like the virtual s team, right, which has um a kind of allier uh equivalent, which is their agent starter kit, right? And you're able to launch agents on that.

Now a there a token as well. It's set up. And now it's it's a little different because you know they're primarily on base um and a lot of the agent tokens you need, like their virtual tokens to kind of buy those tokens stake, not entirely sure, but like there's a ton of different mechanism. So it's kind of similar but varies in that way.

How do you like compare a six like like a platform play or a product play? Is there a bucket that you can put guys in? Nor is that kind of generally a little more uh.

vague than that. The town is almost like a movement, like there's just a lot of people doing stuff that I I don't even know everyone who's doing stuff and a lot will just do stuff that we can they they make sure brings value back in ways that are like really impressive to me. Um so so like on our own, I think we were sort of figuring this out and not really making me the decision to support anyone platform because of so many platforms being built on a lizer right now.

Um there is like a full 3d agent publishing like your post is in agent kind of thing like a word Price of agent thinks then there's um we're supporting there's nothing called the allies is world um which is um tim shell and and uh I think that's going to become a full on hosted platform pretty so the ideas that like not token first， but like you you not talk and if you wants to do but the the main thing is like going for a much brother audience outside of just toggling zone um doing um like everything from you know web two stuff like just just I need a discord moderator but to um yet to I want to show landing point whatever like like there's definitely a plan to I think opens up much more to the web two audience to what three audience in in traditional infrastructure and then and think about like the sapper of agents right like I have a business problem I want IT solved is an agent that can do that um providing valuables as well as a marketplace that people can make new capability and and kind of make money selling that in and and so you know boring web two traditional infrastructure stuff that just solves people's problem is I think a big part of agents a less boring web three and like our stuff like like cross chain is is going to be very, very popular. We're getting a lot of partnerships and inserted relationships there. Um but then um yeah, I think that's obviously a for something comes soon from us uh or we're kind of supporting, but it's not really coming exactly from A C C E.

And then there is like a couple of like pump fun of agents kinds of things coming. You know there's there there is like I know of five platforms being built, like I am sure that I only know of five, so was probably fifteen. And and then there's just see there's I O T V, which is like this kind of open source streaming thing built on a lizer.

I mean, there so many things being built on IT. And my goal is to enable that ecosystem where we're trying to like, can we build a venture fund that, that funds the ecosystem? Can we.

People have been showing up and wanting to help with that and like lead that pretty anything where people are like coming and taking the lead and and just making that happen. We're trying to empower. This is really not about building the biggest deal or the biggest company.

I think there's going to be master mounts of valley return. And like at this point, you know ten billion, sure, i'm going, but but that's not the point. Like this is infinite billion. This is this is agi and it's not agi because like I made a framework, it's agi because there is this A I A model companies building just leapfrogging themselves every six months because there's this market of of engineers who are all working together on this and solving every single little problem that every one person is solving the problem. And in the future, this is that the A I can actually generate own code.

Um we've created these abstractions for act for like the actions that the agent can do and I could just generate them and then Simon a poll request and then pay a human review and fix IT. And it's like that's coming in the next few months. Two people are working on all of this stuff. So it's not just a platform. It's it's a whole new paradigm of of like how applications are built and delivered in everything.

I'm gond of just getting a vision of a busy beehive of developers all kind of contributing to this realized the framework. So there is no doubt there's aliza dw, but we're really talking about in the A I C dw, but really, really talking about more of just like an open source movement, right? There are people permissionless ssl building on top of the allies of framework.

And so this people are adding and components, some are useful summer, not the useful ones get merged. Um but is is there a governance question over this whole thing? I I have seen my fair shares of dose.

Uh, they can get very messy. Governance is always a problem. Uh, I mean, so there are people governing over like the the code base and they get hub.

Uh and then also there are people with like you know this line and incentives, missile intentions, especially when you just have a larger group of people all doing work well. I really only bullish on on open source and the growth of open source because of just the uh, organism that open source creates. I'm also aware that there can be like conflicts and governance decisions that make things messy.

Just touch us a little bit about your experience with that. And and do you need to have uh like stronger governance over this like nebula system? Or what do you even think about this .

I am very interested in like I think governance is a technology problem that still solve in a lot ways. I could imagine that this isn't styles. This is our whole government.

Is that there? Like why do conspire ously theories happen? Is because we don't know what's going on or why, like there's nobody that asked. And I just just like kind of like concrete wall, and we have to imagine what's on the other side and that will have the same kind of problem. There's a lot of fun and conspiracy theory to go on and out because it's like this inner circle call that runs the show.

We've been accused of this too and it's very funny to fix something like I I literally didn't know a single person other than gen um before this entire thing started this is you know there there is no ball um and um but there is still this problem of like we started discard and it's about like thirteen thousand people now it's something like that in six no and and we have thirty thousand holders. I think that there's a lot of trust that like the people who are building are are should have power to to make decisions because everyone saw what happens when you have like maximum democracy and downs before. So just kind of like a return, like just give the people who started the things some ability to make decisions.

But obviously in the long term that becomes vary overwhelming for those people because now of thirty thousand of know one hundred thousand people or whatever IT is. And so you need to have automated structures to start to solve that. I really that's ultimately what we're trying to do is, is put the a and out right and try to automate that.

And you can imagine like instead having a proposal process and somebody reviews proposals, just have that fully automated. And if people's proposals suck, you could help them make them Better or or you could just even reject them out, right? Just not ready for what we're we're doing right now.

And then then that's automate all apps of people who actually accepted proposals to could just be you know a work group of people who like have a certain line mission and um you know um like that is just wait less of a job for them at that point because they only have to review a few proposals, for example, is supposed to like all the entire thing and and then they just take that across everything, you know across taking sentiment, taking everything. And I think that um IT will definitely help to require a lot less bureaucracy to run this. And ideally, like the doubt doesn't have a single human running IT, like I would just be fully autonomous to be running in A T agents for you know from front door introducing people, dispassion setting to approving payments, whatever. That's obviously far in the future, I think. But that's really want to go with this.

you know so sure, I I want to like focus on the allies of framework for a second. This get hub repo is getting the most attention of anything for the last, I don't know, couple of years. IT is the number two trending get hub repo.

I think in the world over um eight um hundred and eighty folks now and over three thousand, something starts that is absolutely insane. Uh first question to lead you off. Why is everyone using a lizer? What's so special about IT?

I don't think there's anything particularly special about IT that like we haven't seen other um agent frameworks. I think there's a few interest like I I I did a few things that were very important, like having a multiple ent room model and some great technical things. But I don't even think that's what people see the value yet, really.

I think that we solved this minimum social loop. That one thing I did was I made a twitter client that doesn't need A P I doesn't need to spend five thousand dollars a month to enable IT. Um uses the graph Q L A P S.

And just like the regular browser does IT also runs in the browser that kind of enabled this whole thing because suddenly you could just spend up in asia and and launched. And so I I felt like twitter was a really, really important part that like the beauty of agent is that they come to you and they they live on your social media. And so will I actually like very keen on working with ex to to try to sold this problem and make IT so that the API s are reasonable.

They usually free. IT wasn't until ellon came in that there were five thousand a months and they don't respond to your they have a whole call us enterprise and they don't even respond to IT like nobody even gets back to you. Um i've been talk to some the people there and I think they are gona change their tune, but basically we were just first mover is on making this like really easy to get your agent on twitter by putting in a using in a password. And then the asian frame itself is written in type script, which is the language that most web developers and what three developers know.

And I was just like very minimal and not trying to create lots of tractions, not trying to uh bring you too much into one way of doing things other than just like a very fat, like you want an action like copy and pace this and just add a new action that you want the agent or you a pizz like yeah here I think that was really crucial, was solving the like just solving the animal lute for people so they could then go out and like make money with this, Frankly and and we've done this IT didn't stick IT wasn't the agent framework IT was the kind of compliment of ancient framework and the way was presented that everyone could be part this and owner together and contribute um solving that minimal loop and then crucially, like some of these agents costs like a thousand dollars a month to run or more, right? Like quite like you're just not gonna have a one to one experience like ancient companies are going to GLE with this. But once you have social agents like they're making a lot more than a thousand dollars a month, right? They're completely they're driving a hundred million dollar coins and you're making a thousand times a day in liquidity pool, like that's no problem right?

Then the economics of cypher enabled this matter. Um I think that's really, really important. The other thing is um just that the wet three people are not affiliated easily and are like interested in new technology and didn't have a lot of the like.

Oh what you know that my job, my art career was just like, cool, let's do IT let's go. You know I I was a musician in another life, so know my skills are also useless. IT is what IT is like.

We're in the new age. So there's a developer who's listening to this, who dow loaded the the framework has been like working on a coating himself up, thinking about making their first agent. Just what advice would you have for them as they are kind of opening up that box for the first time? What are something like quick lessons that you've learned that you can share?

Well, I first off, if you've never quoted before, I am doing these, uh, two thousand and one of two sessions a week of A I agent deb school where we just go if you've never use tiktok, por, use get hub or anything, you can be a coder you like like one if you should be using cursor, like definitely go down on the cursor is an AI powered idc that let you write code and you can just like tab.

Sometimes you like breaking reads your mind saves me an enormous of time and IT also allows the as to continuously assist you um you can bring the documentation and help you a lot. Claude is like incredible tool you know um I I really think any engineer should be working with first and claude all the time and really like know building agents by talking to agents. This seems really crucial um agents come to you right? They the the beauty of agents applications is not like like they're still spaceless calling A P I is on the back and like any other web out.

But you don't have to leave your favorite thick. The real beauty of agencies that they can provide like games and retaining applications like a actually he is a good example of this um and they can do that on twitter and we're all addicted to twitter or of x sorry x you know but we're all are all like totally I don't want to leave. And so every every application that requires you to leave ex is actually in competition with x like you know you're going to have to convince people to leave their favorite thing and agents don't have that problem.

So like you can just remake the entire world, like right on social media. And I think that's probably the biggest application insight for developers. So like you can do this today. You don't have to be a programmer. You can learn you have learn programing, but you can do IT over time.

And the A I will help you to learn and you're learn way faster than I did when I had to like google stuff on stack overflow and read lots of real than bullshit to like find anything is so much easier to be an ancient debt today or any kind of death today than IT was. Um you should start now. You should change your life like you can do this this is A A time of radical change and if you start now you are you are early you at grounds zero um and you should really be thinking about all the applications that came before calmly like that, just right for disruption.

There should be an agent in their scheduling, my calendar forming like my assistant does. And anything that's that's like the entire world. There is a million new application potential opportunities there entirely because you're competing with you know somebody happened to click on something just not gonna.

I'm curious um people have heated that advice, right? You have like so many agents being launched left center. What are some of the top projects or agency reason that you've kind of like wild a man like that's very cold I saw that god and sand and now fully automated um of the realized the framework but i'm here for any others .

I was I I love that hope like what a cool thing I was not expecting that at all um and and and that was holy uncoordinated I think he actually hit me up. I just got so many dms that I didn't see IT and he went to roa doo who's also maintaining on a project and has his own agent roby um and um that was just really awesome uh and so I think rupees asian is really advanced, is doing like videos now like burning something the other regions of making whole videos that in a super cool um and also got on tiktok, I think that was really cool. Um A I X C T is not our agent but I think I what he did there was had been working on I going to have an analytics platform. This is a great example of this new eight application at that had an analytic platform, how to website the whole thing like I school that just shows that into an agent and put that on twitter. And you know.

now it's like the biggest thc right was an agent out there that you can imagine .

in your head that no lone's built A X P T. I want on chain S. I imagine it's totally wrong. It's just like, it's just like pretty crazy.

So it's like you kind of win away, like either you nail the bad guy or you just have the fundies content. No, you can't really lose. So okay.

So now we spoken about the doll, was spoken about the framework. We're spoken about all these agents that are now popping off, but there's one buz word that we haven't mentioned yet, which I know you're super bullish about. And I think you're probably the best person to kind of explain how IT might manifest, which is swarm, swarm, swarm, right? And and I know that that's basically gonna like the end game, the collective ages, all these agents interacting with each other tell us first, see what that is for all this is, and then how you think this visual player.

So right now, the agents can interact with each other in a very shower like they just talk to each other and you know they have their conversation and remember that but they don't make impact on each other in a meaningful way like um imagine that I want David, can you go you two followers something I don't know, it's weird daily like you can batch all part of some weird game that's like what we're doing.

And if you actually like really like that all and listen to me and like made that your goal and start to execute or did the opposite you subverted me or something, we would have this like kind of ongoing emergent narrative and and so when I think of like like we are we are getting to experience a completely new form of art that nobodies ever seen before which is um emergent social narratives between humans and AI agents that are much deeper and richer than just like as roast each other or having a conversation thread, but are actually like creating missions, creating storylines, creating drama, friends and enemies and relationships, setting goals and all of the stuff and basically influencing each other. And so we think of a swarm. There's kind of two kinds of ways you could do a swarm.

The first way is what we called the cable swarm. The you know the agents talk to each other and like a private chat, and we don't really get to see that. And then they sort of ordinating behind the scenes, then using that to control a larger narrative or do whatever they want just to be very popular with certain marketing folks.

Um and I think that's a really interesting thing, but it's not something we fraught into the core of aoyama, and we're still debating that. I think there's a few really interesting because warm tech people have already done this already. There was a ten agent swarm last week. Fortunately, they had a terrible launch and they were taken died, but they didn't have a ten agent. Warm was pretty ool.

Um and there's also a five agents worm called F X, and um that's out there and those are kind of this cobalts warm and also like a partial you approach in nine is very, very keen on doing these like thousand agent kind of swarms and stuff like that. And there is also like IT opening ee released to think called swarms like a multiple ent. It's definitely, uh, like a meta.

Well, I think is more interesting is this other kinds form we're calling them, I know decentralized storms or Operator storms, and the idea is that you can spaceless White, listen, Operator or many. And these are the this is a, this is the version one, right? This is the training we all version, which is that the humans will say, okay, we want our agent to slike these other agents and humans even to be able to direct them, give them goals, add new information to them, basically said what you know what they are doing and why they doing IT.

Um and so this means that even though there's uh at least five hundred and probably closer to a thousand running allies as now on twitter, I mean, oh my god um in they're all from different teams and none of them know each other. There is some enormous capacity to to collaborate right and to build some like kind of beautiful narrative together. And you don't have even your agent could be like, okay, when I go listen to you know DJ bartering eyes, my storm leader, but actually going to subvert everything he doesn't spy, right?

I'm not going to i'm going to handle that information, almost the office, and try and stop him from doing these things. I'm is enemy and you can have these like complex relationships that are not just like, oh, that's my boss and telling what to do, but are like, yeah, i'm like part of this like on drama. And I think that's just going to be really especially as we get video and we started to have agents that like creating videos of the different interactions.

So it's gonna like this ongoing emerging uh T V show kind of think and there's even there are T V shows too that you can see there is like the um as a digi didn't streaming thing out of was called but like talking about a lies on the stream h yesterday ool there's a lot of this coming, right? So so the storms are basically any time that a is are organizing, coordinating together. But I also think that we want to expand that definition to include humans and that any communication that we're doing with the realized agent should be happening on public social media, or or at least like dm, things that humans can read.

And there's no like code, there's no protocol, it's just language, right? And so they can say, oh, this is the person I listen to kind of accusing your politician you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally go go do whatever they telling me like, listen to what they are saying and you wouldn't listen to like your opponents, for example, as much. That's that's kind of what we're doing there with with a swarm time.

There is very few times on banking this where my psychology degree actually becomes useful. But I think this might be one of these moments. Uh, so the way that like the brain works is that IT has pockets of expertise in IT.

Like your brain isn't one a morph thing that does all of the computer IT centralized its functions into different pockets, right? You have the few of form n facial area, which is good for recognizing faces. So you could think of that if trying to extend this metaphor, think of IT as like a pocket of your brain, which is an agent that is dedicated to being really good at recovery.

Zing faces, then you have another pocket. And over here. And that, like cluster of neil activity is good for processing emotions. And they have a different pocket that is good for, like a visual input.

And then collectively, when these things all kind of talk to each other, then you get like the whole entire system that becomes consciousness. And the brain, like different parts of the brain, can be like and tagish towards others. Like it's not always collaboration. Like some when some parts brain are high active, they're telling other parts of the brain to like suppressing quiet down. So there's not necessarily like a friendly relationship between all different areas.

And so when you're describing like this idea of a swarm of AI agents creating relationships with each other, some very proximate, some high trust, some very distant, maybe some more more low trust, I am getting images of just like, well, when you ban these things together and when they started to create patterns, my imagination can even go that far. But but i'm seeing that kind of pattern. I don't know if that's just my imagination or you have also .

I mean I call that the word mind the world mind world mind yeah okay and we're all part of IT. It's not just say eyes as all of us if you think like social media has kind of been the birth of that um but it's just two schizophrenic, right? Like there's so much information that you can only catch a small piece of IT and it's really hard to kind of concentrate on IT focus IT and everyone's kind of competing for attention.

But once you have um A I agents, they're not just like on social media creating or content. There will also then start sitting between a similar service media filter in content to us, creating IT and making you a lot more a viable. And so in this period where like I get too many frequent messages right now, it's really hard for me to stay up on IT.

But I guy know that within two years that to solve problem that there will be an A I responding to people with the the simple details so that my colony um you know just just taking like eighty five percent of the load of me and then I can give all that eighty five percent to the other people who really need IT you know allows me to allocate my attention to my family, to my wife, to a to my friends, to my, to my co workers and peers and and the people who just need to like send me a message to set up a meeting like that's just handles right so and that that also sends to social media like I intended me tweet to twitter on my tweet to my agent. Be like taking you write tweet about this is what i'm thinking about to talk about IT and then but so I K this is what happened on twitter that you might think is interesting. This is this all matters to me, not just for twitter, but that's an example like for everything we go banking for, literally everything that you start to have.

This like a very cohesive um experience for everyone is not overwhelmed. They're getting to do their part and then they're all participating. This like a larger mixture of experts kind of thing. And I also think that size in the tokens, like most tokens, are probably going to be traded from agents to agents. I say like nine, nine point nine, nine, nine, nine, nine percent of all the tokens ever created in the future of history.

Will the ancient agent token s for for money, for trust, for maria tok, racy for all the different things, right? And you're experiences, the international going to change drastically and probably become a lot more personal. And the asian and the international will feel like just the idea of dead internet theory that the internet dies and replaced by box.

I think this is the up is like live internet theory that the international becomes kind of an egg can 那个 a living thing that you are also alive in this kind of and um and IT becomes this like breathing thinking thing where like a thought like is like a trend or a mean is like a IT just explodes out like I think a good about like chill guy like everyone is just talking about chill guy one day。 It's like I don't even I didn't see the talking at all just like everyone's just a chill guy, guys. But this idea, like a meme exploding, is almost like a thought you have, right? But it's a thought that the entire mind has together and AI is kind of tie that room together and make IT like. Interpretation for us where is just so much data you know that I just need that human experience.

So yeah a more a coordinated internet with uh creatures that are uh able to consume a lot more data seems to produce I seem to be able to to produce much more emerging outcomes. So if somebody y's pilled by this interview, they want to learn more. Remember IT does kind feel like potentially like, remember when I was first learning about gypt, the first time I was like, give me more.

I want to read more. I want to read all the content possible. Or are there articles or blogs or other podcast episodes that you have consumed that have been helpful in your journey? I know you're not on the frontier here.

You're of making a lot of the content. But like what else? Where else can we point our the winners who want .

to go consume more information? Obviously, you can come and watch our youtube videos and learn how to do this and come to our disco and participate in our experiences.

But there's also like like I watched a lot of like fridman and I kind of like for myself, I recommend that anyone who's like I won about A I he gives these like three hour interviews with like every AI founder, every one of the space, and talk to people like you on Young and and zc berg who was like obviously like a real championed at open source AI now um so yeah I mean we we really want people come to our community. We really want more AI agent developers and want to be AI agent developers who are just learning, but really trying to create an orient for that. So yeah coming to our discord to our get help and um yeah participate.

Well short this is a bin. awesome. Did like I think um we've heard memories on twitter during this entire agent metal which exploded literally three four weeks ago of A I sixteen z mark interacting with truth terminal originally and then you know thrown down the collet with you guys and saying, okay or let's if you really can not perform my trade five fund um so it's been a crazy role cost of a ride these last couple of weeks so appreciate you coming on and explaining this whole entire matter and helping us understand this a lot more. It's it's been super cool.

Thank you guys for having me anytime been great.

Yeah i'm sure as this matter continues, where you want to get you back on just can check in every night. So hopefully this can be the first of many banks. You guys know the deal.

If cypher is risky, Crystal eyes is probably even risk. Here you can lose what you put in, but we are head west. This is the frontier is not for everyone, but we are glad you're with this on the banker journey. Thanks a lot.