Why You Should Still Be Bullish ETH | Anthony Sassano
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At that market cap, we we need that, that bigger money marginal buyer to decisively move move etha. But I think is part of the regular market market cycles as well with a flight of new kind of money coming in from like great time as as that can still move eighth up. But if you want eth that like ten, 10， twenty k IT needs to be the big money is the world street etf money, I can just be that regular retail bia.

Welcomes to bank less where we explore the front of internet money and internet finance. This is range. Here are David hoffman and we are here.

It'll be become more bank less. We've done a lot of eve episodes slated some eat episodes that have been more barish. This is not one of those.

This is an episode that is max bullish on ethical asia and a theoria the network. We ve got Anthony y seasonal here. He uh, took a couple months off on vacation and he came back with some bull food busting fury.

came up demand, end up energy.

I think he heard rumor of some of the episodes that that we did with coal and max and he wanted to a you come on and basically refute in the points made.

So we've got three parts the episode, first him answering the criticisms, then in making the bulcke for either the asset, explaining why he is still bullish and then prognosticating on the future particularly the question that's in a lot of eth holding's mind is like, uh, when we go up ah is this cycle gonna? What about either of this cycle? We get IT into all that and more. Anthony just has an absolute .

wealth knowing ledge IT kind of comes out you like a fire house. So listen to embrace yourself because here we go. Let's go heading. Get right into our conversation with anthy is on the first a moment to talk about and sponsors that make this show possible, especially where we prefer to buy our cyp to asc says cri preferred cyp to change for twenty twenty four. If you do not have account with cracking, consider clicking the link in the channel shooting.

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Build, go head and discover a flexible modeler stack on cartelli, and build you are most powerful, ambitious project yet visit cartelli dot I O slash simply and simplify your block train journey and start building today. Can someone very special on the show today, a notable Angel investor, uh, perhaps known as the eat ball of eat balls, the creator of the theory podcast, the daily way. Ann is on o welcome back to bank less.

David. Thanks for having me ryan .

you on well, we get this is a long time. Come in the episode yeah.

yeah, definitely. I think it's coming at the right time as well.

And I just curious, are you still bullish either? Just curious.

Oh, man, that's a funny question because like the default answer is yes, but like my today answer is also yes.

okay. So I want to kind of zoom out before we get into many of the questions that we are going to ask you, which are going to be some of the same questions that we have asked our other guests over a handful episodes that we've done, both on the bullish on the bare side, we throw some of the same questions like your way, but I want to zoom out. The authorities project is a big project started in twenty fifteen. Um we are now twenty twenty four uh some of that project uh which was once ideas has now manifested into real life zoom ing all the way out. Ah if we went back in time when we all met me around, you all met in twenty seven twenty eighteen and we were able to move forward twenty twenty four and see what's up with the theory um how would do you think that IT has gone like vet the progress, the successes of the theory, the project as we once saw IT in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen .

yeah so I mean, just to give some context for listeners, I got into a theme in early twenty seventeen. So I miss things like the deal and I missed a lot of those kind of I guess very early I guess years twenty fifteen, twenty six, which were pretty formative I think for a theory um as an ecosystem really tested a theory um like the deal was was the them's biggest test I think maybe ever at disappinted terms of uh the amount of controversy that is a made for the etheric microsystem created for the ethical microsystem and then the full out from that is still being felt to these day.

Actually, we still reflect back on the deal in certain kind of areas of a theory um as as a kind of example of what not to do or what's avoid or how to build a theory. So we have to deal with that ever again sort of thing and obviously informed a lot of a smart contract development terms of security because that IT was the first be hack from a smart contract um and obviously IT LED to the worst cases area which was altering the chain with an a regular state transition to court court fix IT, right? So there was a lot of lessons learned there.

But when I got into a theory um the ico mania was just kicking off. So my first kind of I guess, impression of the theory um was that everything was fucking awesome. We're get improve of state this year like it's all going to be great.

We going to scale. We're more scalable than big coin is going to be amazing. So I think I got like a nice time because I obviously wrote up that that yeah he went from my candles to four, four hundred.

Everything was amazing until obviously, like towards the end, we started hitting like real scalability kind of limits with copter kitties, cragg's network, the ice, the big ico is clogging network and became very clear, I think, to everyone, that a lot of extraction was happening in the ecosystem as well with these ice OS. We're not novel ideas anymore. IT was a sm dressed in a White paper, really.

And a lot of money got sucked out. The ecosystems, lions of dollars, of course, tens of billions potentially got sucked out of not just the ear ecosystem, but the cyp to ecosystem, because people were selling their other cyp to assets like BTC, to coming to eat, to buy these ico. So that was my kind of first impression.

But then during the bear market, twenty thousand and twenty twenty, I stuck around and I tried to do what what I felt was most valuable. I created a thud with eric. You guys created bankers during that time as well.

We all kind of got together and and started talking about a theory um there but what's funny is that, well, like those all that optimism in two thousand seventeen that everything was coming like that yeah nothing and that are coming from like another three years right? Previous state didn't get to live IT until december twenty twenty day if I didn't take off until really mid twenty twenty in in a really big way that we had the protocols life for a while. Scaling was an absolute pipe dream at the time.

We were still talking about like state channels and plasma that wasn't really roll up yet that came laid up. So if I was to look back at twenty seventeen, I would say that yeah because because the ball market kind of I guess, put A A shadow of this that kind of hit IT away for a little bit. But then I came to light in twenty, twenty and twenty nine. So I would say that today like thinking back um I I I I am actually amazed that where we had today, given where we came from and like how everything was stuck against the theory um at the time as well, get considering that we had that brutal bear market after the ball market. Um so yeah, I would say that we've succeeded in my wildest expectations at this point.

Then why in that case would you say eat is down so bad? Now when you look at like some of the dominant pairs that people look, we have the east BTC ratio down for two years in a row, sala ea ratio up straight for a year in a row. Uh, how do you account for this Price action that you can't really call IT like local Price action anymore when some of the transverse s big? One of the very releases is two years old now. Uh, so how do you account for this?

I I tried to over index on Price ratios. I tried to look at what a is is kind of valued as in in of USD terms first and foremost, sorry yeah to three hundred billion doll asset. So it's obviously absolutely macy. It's one of the the most valuable assets on the planet.

I think it's worth more than coal laws looking at the other day, which is we just kind of funny when you think about the fact that like everyone knows who coca cola ries S A global brand like unprecedented one, has had at least one of their products in their lifetime where as a theory on the other hand is is nothing like that in most people have haven't heard of a theory um at all and definitely not bought eh. So I think that's a pretty big achievement already. But in terms of ratios, reason why I don't over index on them is because they are picture in time, I think and you mention that against the it's it's less, I guess like, uh, local and and more kind of maco been many years now, I understand that.

But then against kind of other assets, I think it's a picture in time of what where we're at. If you're gona talk about like against salona, for example, which obviously is assumes kind of main competitor in in the ecosystem today in terms of like being a platform to build things. I have other opinions about how I believe each and B, T, C, A competitor or as well in each main competitors BTC to be money.

We're going to talk about that, of course. But in terms of like the actual platform self, the technology, obviously as long as had a great loss. But I guess eighteen months, you could say maybe, maybe be longer than that theyve on board to a lot of people into the ecosystem that have kept building that they kept grinding during the bay market.

And they are basically experiencing a lot of what the theme experiences last cycle, but it's fresh. It's you like the shining, you think, right? So that's why I don't like to over index on the snapshot because like you don't know what's going to happen in the future.

You don't know if the same things gna happen to salona way. A lot of that activity washes out and goes somewhere else, maybe another competitive in network, maybe IT comes back into A A theory um lay a tooth because where scaling up as well, unlike a theory um has SAT still and done nothing. So I think it's just a picture of of the current landscape.

The time what we're ring now and IT doesn't really have any uh, I guess I barring on the future, I think that's one that, that we can take from a lot of cup to our Price action is that a lot of IT reacts to the nail to the very short term and a lot of that has a very delayed reaction to the long term. Because if you look at the players in the crib ticket system, a lot of them don't have a long term, I guess, kind of mindset at all. A lot of them don't understand enough to have a long term mindset because a lot of people who get in script, or Better or worse, I just need to make money.

I don't care about the technology they are chasing where the money is and is wrong with that. But you have to kind of a take that into consideration and give context to understand what's happening in in the market. This is the very complex kind of be still.

But I think I saw a tweet I think was from joe gun to i'm probably to get the actual tweet wrong, but he basically said that every other chain is living in the theory. ms. Post, or a theory is living in every other chinese future.

I think that's the best description i've ever seen of of of that kind phenomenon on there. Because every issue that a thorium has today or ever perceived issue will be an issue for these other chance in the future. And you're already seeing this as as time goes on, the more mature and ecosystem becomes the the more issues, uh, I guess, really are ugly head, especially when IT comes to pace of development, the bigger and ecosystem, the slow at your pace of development.

And this isn't just for block change. This is true for centralized companies as well. Like a small member status is going to move a lot faster than apple, for example, when developing new products and new features and and stuff like that because he doesn't all that democracy doesn't have to go through a million different product managers so and so full that does not have to make sure doesn't harm the stock, so to speak.

So there a complete differences between big and small. And I think that the aerial competitions, a lot of them is still very, very small today, right? And they can move very fast, very umbly shining.

You think people love that and attract today. But then as they get bigger, they just fall into the same thing that the theory um has falling through in terms of like there are really big eager system. They have to move slow now they mature.

So no one people like all yeah that's being there for ages like that's old news. I'm going to go bet on the shiny new thing so that's onna happen and I am strongly confident that because IT has happened, two bitcoin. Bitcoin was the the obviously the shining you thing once on a time.

Now what's the old boomer thing? If there I am saying thing shining, you think old boomer thing. Someone is so far has happened to pretty much everything that reached a certain critical mass.

Hia, and the last thing i'll say, the one thing that really excited me about the mr. System is that we're basically trying to have the best of both world. We are trying to have the old established kind of like matua chain with A M L one, and the small, nimble kind of start up, move, break things thing with altus. And I know that they were trade off there with introspective and things like that, which i'm sure will discuss. But the way I look at IT is that we ve essentially done done this thing where we're trying to thread the needle between being that old, kind of like matua platform and being new and upstart and attracting those new people because that's only way you gona attract new people is making IT so that they feel like they're coming into something new and exciting and not something that's all in dated.

So there's a perspective out there that the choices of the authorities roadmap have had a theory into a path that has changed its fundamentals, right? The fee burn of either is down because the layer to roadmap took IT away, right? So as a result, the vibes on twitter are bad. Being in the narrative on twitter right now is bad because the Price is bad. And some people who are saying, well, this is actually a fundamental truth.

This is as a as a reaction to the road map which has is flawed and has LED people down and not a very value of creative path for a theory um but I think what you're saying is, is well, actually all of these chains are all kind of more or less the same pets and the year and we had our kind of like you fork fun times in twenty and twenty one um and now we are kind of doing this very hard thing. Which other chains will also have to do. And so the main dislocation between Prices of bitcoin, either salona, is actually just a dislocation in the time frames of many the market participants.

People are looking kind of like looking in, in the short term, placing their bets in the short term and not really looking out into the longest and future horizon. Ah and and as a result, there are dislocated market Prices. How is a summary of .

what you're saying? Yeah I I think so. And and also like I don't know if I maybe use the word dislocated, it's it's as I said, more like a snapp shot in time. You know the mark basic is saying, well, we give this kind of platform this percentage of odds of succeeding are over a certain kind of time frame and this is how much we think it's worth against the theory.

Um maybe it's going to outgrow theory, may be it's going to out triple theory um and you mention kind of things like a value of cruel to the acid and and a big reason why i'm especially with them with salona where they have been generating a lot of these fear of a you lightly um through parody fees through things like mav which theme has has done in the house as erm did this in twenty twenty one ryo fear of and you was absolutely massive. We obviously have the burn girl live which made IT look even Better because hey, deflationary ef. But I think that long term, what seems to happen in every ecosystem in the theory um is the prime example he are is that that value is considered leakage to the l one where the APP themselves look at that online.

Hay, I want that for myself. Ves, you know, the M, V participants look at that and like, hey, why am I paying so much for this? Like, I want to pay less to attract M V.

I want to to attract the M V, of course, but I want to pay less for that because their businesses at the day, right, they are profit maximum, they are trying to make money. I mean, I think the most profit maxi entity in crypto R M V related to kind of entities like that, their whole business revolves around making the most amount of money. So what you've seen with the theory and over the last a couple years um and this isn't the only reason, but this is big reason.

The M A V on the theory has been minimized a lot for the user. The user is able to protect themselves through things like cassock. For example, there is private water flower and there are trade off serious. Well, i'm not saying it's a goodbyes thing, but it's what has happened.

And that's taking a lot of this kind of fair of you and also smooth out the fee market too, where if you have like this, I mean one five five nine to this as well, like the I P one five five nine. But essentially you have like A A much more kind of orderly ly out where essentially people are protecting themselves. May may be the apps are potentially internalizing that leak edge and accruing IT to themselves rather than leaking IT out to the l one.

And I think that's going to happen to to every manual kind of l one ecosystem and even l to know it's not just the l one here. So so that's a big reason why I think that over indexing on on fear revenue for our ones is the wrong move. And valuable ing these things based on fear revenue is the complete wrong move because we did that if there's m wouldn't be worth three hundred billion dollars or shouldn't be worth three hundred billion dollars IT wouldn't worth a lot less than that if if he was just evaluated on its fear when you even in the times that it's fear when you was really, really high IT shouldn't be worth that much.

But if if you're just value IT based on that, but my strong belief and and I believe you guys agree with this and this is a belief that i've held since I 0。 So this is not a new thing. It's like five plus years of IT.

My strong belief is that every single l one token, if IT wants to be juried ly worth hundreds of billions, trillion of IT has to be money. IT has to be a story value. There is no other path to that because of the phenomenon of there is no way these apps in these kind of researchers and anyone else in that pipeline are gonna AK.

All this value to the l one. IT doesn't like any sense. The incentives do not go there. The incentives go the complete opposite way.

And I think what we're seeing now as well is that a more, more people are accepting of this because we have the evidence to back that up. It's all well and good for us to say eight is money. IT is a story value.

But people ask, you know, what is the evidence to back this up? Well, to me, the clearest evidence is that eight is worth through a billion dollars. Bitcoins worth one point three trillion dollars.

And neither of them, especially bitcoin, justify enough. Uh, h sorry, justify evaluations via their fear. You not even close to that.

So this is the say that theory isn't going to be able to generate fear, your one. And that shouldn't a crew value to eat as an asset as well. But I think we're talking about where the bulk of the value comes from.

IT seems to based on the evidence, not based on just me saying IT. IT seems to come from a monetary premium from a story value, and we believe this and wanting to actually hold the asset. And then you've got everything else that falls into that as well, which you cruise value to eighth.

But that's that's the kind of way I say. And I think if we're talking about uh, what what's happening now where people are allocating money, I think people are seeing these high salon and revenues like they saw the high theory revenues and being like, oh my god, I want a piece of that like that's really high, that's gonna ep growing. IT looks really good.

The charts are up only. And I think the same things going to happen with with a theory um a lot of that was minimized. A lot of that was a lot of that came down over time just naturally.

And I think that's what's happen with every network. And I try to pick on sana is just obviously about this example here or what to compare IT to um but I think that's the n fate here because a lot of IT is M V as well. I hope people done on the stand lot of IT is M V which is harmful to users.

And we want to internalize that. We want to make sure all the act one to internalize that. And we also want to make sure users are protected from this because they're losing a lot of money at the moment.

So, uh, let's do this anything because you you are eat bowl of balls I mean, they say like bank bullsh ef and you like I think maybe we certainly are and also we have nothing .

on you hold a cand and again.

so um let's divide the remaining portion of this episode into maybe like three kind of path rust like first let's have you directly enter the criticisms. Then let's have you give us kind of the pure unadulterated bull ll take on either the asset and they finally will kind of end with with you may be predicting what's next but but first answer the criticism.

So there have been a lot of criticisms of either and its value of cruel and the theory, the network and let's start there kind of lighting around this and thy so like i'll just throw you know criticisms flood your way and like you can kind of like, you know, deal with smacking IT down or addressing IT how you see fit. And I want to start with the criticisms in kind of like three different sections. So like the first is criticisms that come from outside the house, from outside the community, maybe the old layer one VC outside of the theory community, that's one one subset.

Then those that are inside the house in internal to the author community that I see more often. And then kind of the neutral parties, the market on look or so first criticisms coming from the outside of their theoria community. This first one, this is been a main one, and kind of like a narrative staple in twenty twenty four against serum, which is the idea altus are parasites.

You like all the altus that have launched are primarily like cloes of the l one. You we're copy and paste una swap and so that results in taking of users liquidity and defy from uh a thorium and parasitic a all of the like T V L, uh, value a cruel. What do you say to this idea that l to use our parasites.

the main reason, this kind of narrative and similar narratives exist is because it's a really easy kind of black sheep point. People can thrown into like the twitter sphere, the social sphere and get people just like constantly debating IT because that sounds like fun on the ship as hey altus a parasite because they're taking users from l van.

Hey, they're not paying much fees to the l one yet and go discuss this until you guys run out a breath sort of thing. So I think that if you're a competitive ecosystem, the best thing you can do is basically so confusion, right, and so doubt in your competitor and and get them talking about, especially when IT comes to discussing this online stresa twitter in a very adversarial environment there. But I think that the whole premises is just completely flawed from from the beginning, even for people who who may believe IT like, let's discover the people who are just saying IT to to fight the theory and they don't actually believe that, they just want to, so confusion.

But let's look at the people who actually believe this. The whole premises is is flawed because it's essentially saying that if a theory didn't have altus, then a theory um will be doing fine like that's what you're saying and there no parasites on IT, there will be no one leaking. And you know taking users from IT which is completely folks the other allons would be taking users from the theory um they did when the theory um even the l tooth before blobs went life were expensive.

Users were going to other chains because I was too expensive for them. So so in in reality they were parasites, the parasites of the other l ones and are the other ecosystems. They're taking the users from a thereon and the serum l one was never going to scale like the other l ones has a completely different scaling very for for three um l one. So I think the whole premise, just to begin with this completely flawed because by saying the alto of parasites, you're essentially saying the theory um would have been fine with that the alto I have a growing ecosystem through um one would have been on boarding new users when the food like what even a year ugar was that uh a serum I wanted so expensive, all the users are going to go elsewhere.

A theory is did and now we're keeping the theory um I guess uses within the etherium system because these altus part of the three of system that's another the narrow that they say, I don't know if you're got your list that altus on a theme but like essentially the from the from the the base premise IT doesn't make sense, like if you actually raised to that IT doesn't make any sense. And I think that um the people who actually believe that may just be confused about that. I may just have like a wrong frame of reference cal that tell .

I think about IT. So are altus if they are not parasites, are they neutral or they uh syndiotactic net good for a syrian, the network and for either the asset?

I think like if you if you look at each individual l two, like you could basically risen and say, hey, there could be an alto that literally exist just to siphon off users of the theory. And its plan was always to become a new l one or something like that, and leave the theory. And that is a possibility.

That is always a possibility. But he was talking about the current set of like altus that have most of the activity on them. You're base your orbital one set a like, I don't consider them to be parasites at all. Their ecosystems constantly give back to a thorium.

I constantly involved in a theory um I mean ten members from from these l two ten s were involved in getting blobs over the line which means getting involved in the court development process of a theory which is not an easy process. Anyone who's paid attention to code development process knows just how hard that is to get over the line and get things into the network. But they did this.

They're part of the community. They give back. They do things like to get to the protocol guild are on twitter at defending the serum all the time.

They're talking about why they're on a serum, why, what their buildings only possible on the theory. So is a lot of social signalling around that. And yes, okay, they can be lying.

But these teams like optimism, for example, which what is what basis built on the op stack arbitrium of chain labs. Theyve been around for a very long time, and they're been in the theory for very long time and and stuck with the theory for a very long time. So I think if you if you just taking them on their word, you never you should never do that.

But you can also look at the supporting evidence as well. And then in terms of what they're actually driving objectively to the network, in terms of fear revenues, stuff like that, they are still driving fear when use the network. They're still interested in doing things like interpreting with other altus.

They're still interested in doing things like becoming a bed roll up. We should drive even more revenue to to the l one. So there is a lot of different things that are doing that I consider be in biotic and not parasitic.

But I I think like if you use the general term that like all altus a ybio tic, I think that's incorrect because that that is objectively fault because there are some altus that will become alvin's, maybe there are small altus and or maybe they are an alto that becomes really big from incentives. And their whole plan was to basically become an l wan and be like, hey, look, you can survive an l wan and and do some kind of stuff there like the competitions for us and people. People do the sorts of things are.

But I think if you're looking at the ones that have succeeded and the ones that potentially gona succeeded in in the future of the the really big ones like these gigas alto, like make eight people have heard of rise as a few others out there. If you look at what what they are doing, they're literally saying without a theory um we don't exist. So how can I be a parasite?

If like without a theme that don't exist, then like it's a symbol thing where with a theme they exist, they thrive and the serum thrives. Es, so it's sym biotic. That's that's the way I kind .

of view that I want to see if I can actually strong man this argument a little bit more because I I think some people some of the people who say like layer tools are parasite to the serum or layer tools aren't won't actually be totally satish ed by the answer. Uh, and I think your dough feeling comes from the perspective of that all block chains or kind of maximum st of themselves.

So when we have a user who's transacting on the on u swap on the a theme layer one with whatever amount of capital that they have and then they decided migrate to a layer two um objectively less fee revenue ah gets burned the theory um layer wan gas pfizer and IT goes to optimism base our charming a picture layer too and that goes into that douse treasury instead because they collect their fee revenue and theory um lost one user arbitron gained one user a thereon lost like ten thousand dollars of capital arba from gained ten thousand thousand dollars of T V L uh and when arbitron captured ever fee revenue that arbitrary captured IT actually only gives one hundreds of a share of that few revenue back down to the a theory only one via product proof and in the theory um um world look at that we like dumps up that's great that's what we want that scaling up but then the know the allier one camp will say like, well, sure you kept IT inside of the theory an ecosystem so you got a sliver of that fee revenue so congrats. I didn't go to L A. I didn't I didn't go to suc, updos, whatever. Ah so yes, in the system, but you still lost the revenue and you still lost the user, the theme layer once still lost of those things. And so how how would you because I think that Price is a little bit different than the answer that you gave.

Yeah and I totally understand that perspective, but I I think IT goes back to what I said earlier about kind away with the is users go if they're not A M and is not an two for them to go to, where are they going where we are they and is a complete and total of one one hundred ds of a loss that is a complete and total loss for a theory um um and because you've literally lost the user, it's like someone buying a samsung phone instead of an iphone, that is a complete loss.

Apple didn't get the sale. Samsung the sale thing here, the theory um didn't get the sale sona got the sale, for example, right? Like and I think when IT comes to um I guess, block chains, this sticky est toward as well. There is a very big network effect to IT.

Sorry, by losing that that kind of user, we're not only losing that use up, but we're also reinforcing a competitive network effect, which can potentially get them even more users that won't go to with syria because they are just going to to another network because that's where this office kind of happening. Now I think that's the first point on on on on that. But then there there's two other big things here.

One of them is that i'm the altus as scaling ef the asset as well as scaling the three um block's space to essentially scaling ef is money. So the fear a cruel fear of your stuff, at least over the kind of short to medium term, is not a concern to me. It's basically a lost you know, doing lost leader were essentially the alto is very, very cheap then paying much revenue right now because we're trying to keep theory macs, m theory music within the etheric a system.

We want them in the aerial system, we don't want them going to other ecosystems because even though it's, uh, I guess you could say an objective lost terms of fear revenue and I T L to the l one. If you think of this as like a kind of like uh big big thing with a theme at the center and other other chains orbiting a theory kind of being part of a thereon that way, then um to me it's it's not like A A total and irrevocable loss. Like it's it's it's still a bit benefit, especially for eat the asset scaling that out as as kind of money there and especially when in the future we get more into ability between these altus and when I mean, some of them are going to be based altus and what that, that basically means.

People who don't know is that they use the l one for their sequencing so they don't have their own sequence, so they actually use the lone validator. they. Hartly coupled with the serum l wan.

Our versus you know maybe being a little bit attached by doing their own thing there. And I think kind of on that node, like I know we're going to probably talk about more these money stuff, but that also flows in to the value of eats and asset. I as I said, like I strongly believe eat needs to be money altus or a really, really good way of promoting eat this money.

They're been doing IT for years now. And somebody who may argue, well, you can use eth on on other chance. Basically you can use eighth on the other l ones.

Doesn't that scale? Eight is money as well. And I would say that a little bit, but the eth on the l ones is I made even on the l tube. It's it's an I O U. It's not like complete in real eth because eight is issued on the author l wan and if you want like complete settlement guarantees and assurances for your eighth, it's on the l but on the on the l two when they get to stage to the centralization they have like an escape patch, they basically thought the coupled with the A M L wan and you have this way back, in case something happens to the l two, you have this way back home. But with the other l ones, you don't really have that and also the other l ones not incentivised, they are all to push eth as the asset.

This is advised to push their own native asset as the money of their ecosystem, which is kind of funny when people fight back against like eas money as a well, you want everyone to use your native token, don't you? right? Like so isn't that the kind of the same thing here? So is the kind of major appoints that i'd push back on there, but I get like a for a lot of people, they see the world as IT is today.

And it's very hard for them to imagine the future and it's very hard for them to look at kind of the incentives and say, well, what's keeping these alti s in a theoria? And like, if they able to to cph one so much value, why not become an l one? And that becomes like a huge discussion as well from there.

So I understand the argument I I do, and I understand the argument for people who may not be aware of all the intricacies here. But as I said, that you start analyzing and and breaking IT down and you eventually get to the point we are like OK. Well, that doesn't really make much, much sense. There are. But IT does require a longer term, I guess, outlook.

Some of the like the altis have a different token. And so they're going to be elke reluctant and to promote ethical money type takes. Do you guys this kind of reminds me of like you but IT back to everything encysted we've seen kind of before. You guys remember back in the days of early defy when, uh, actually the first A M M H automated market maker wasn't like u swap on a theme that was this other particular called banker. You just remember banker and like one of the the worries are concerns about banker from like the strong eth bull community was like, hey, why is bank or um like basing all of its trading pairs in the bank corp token ah do remember they were doing this yeah uh and and so is like a oh like eat should be the base pair because you're on a serum and like we want you to be money not something like bank or are token and like the building .

an alignment conversation .

yeah in alignment conversation and there is like almost early discussion of like well being parasite and you like IT was that kind of a conversation and then along came unis wap and of course like IT used um either as its base pair, then obviously has massive stable coin markets uh as well. But that that fit much more in the etheric a system. why? Because either was kind of the incredibly neutral money across all of the other defi apps.

And so either was in either was in compound now either made sense to be the dominant pair inside of unsold. I kind of think the same thing will play out in altus. If you just think of l user, what they kind like.

Apps right there are like. It's almost the same fractal pattern of the early apps establishing eat as money and definable altus. The most credibly neutral asset for them to um like to to use as a storage value is going to probably be either, and those that don't will be kind of disconnected from this network effect anyway. Okay, we're still uh outside the house, outside the youth community in terms of take this is another take that was given us uh recently basically like a themes over provision with respect to um like its security. Okay and like other chains have kind of enough security, almost the idea of like economic security and me I will go so far to that.

But the basic idea that um a thorium is like you know four nine, five nine with respected security and all you really need for a global permissionless financial system is like ninety nine point nine percent security and light up time or whatever else, right? And so the idea that um it's over provisions, we're not actually practically anthy uh going to be like up against kind of nation state attack. And like if we are anyway not a bitcoin or theme or any blockchain existence can actually withstand so like sona or some alternative layer one security models is enough. And all the solo staker stuff, all of this max centralization stuff that's like a way overkill for what we actually need. Whats your take on this?

Yeah I mean, I think I was back to what I was saying about looking at more, more longer term. I think that the theory is always been built with the mission of being as maximum decentralized as respecting all the different victims of that because it's not just the economic security by eight stake. It's not just solid stakers, but it's also things like client diversity.

And these things have downstream effects where with client diversity, not only do we get Better defenses against, I guess, any potential attackers, but we get dundon cy in the network as well. Well, essentially, if one client was to have a critical bug in IT, IT wouldn't take the whole network, whether other networks, even bitcoin, right? Bitcoin has one client.

If that cin has a critical bug, inet and takes IT takes a network of line for whatever reason, there's no, I guess, recourse there in terms of other client. So there are the only stream of fixie and as well with with the client, you have more and more more people building a therion clients as well and getting involved with the authorities kind of code development ecosystem, which further essentialize out the court, decentralized out the code development of of a theory. Um so there are a lot of different angles to kind of attack this from, but I would say it's it's basically uh, preference.

It's not really a kind of argument or not really fun. It's a preference. It's like, okay, if you prefer to be in the ecosystem prioritized the I guess like far end of the spectrum that that a theoria does in terms of being maximum essential zed sensitive persistent planning for the potential worst case scenarios of of nation states, but also of just like opportunity sts as well, wanting to break the network because is not just nation states.

If an opportunity is hey, like I could break the theory network with a with a maybe I found the bug in in the core protocol. I can break IT and I can make some money on this ah whether it's in in the markets, something like that. Well, there need to be a defenses against that as well.

So I think from from that perspective, you can go all the different directions of oha theoria can does that? I say client diversities one there. There's a bunch of others here.

But if that's not something you vibe with thought, it's something that you really care too much about, then we can't force people to to kind care about that. We can't argue against them and say how you should care about this because it's it's really I think just that just the preference thing. But I think when it's tested is when it's most important, like we had the o fax sanctions against tomato cash.

And that really tested a theory ms. Claimed to sensitive persistence because I think people don't realize that these networks have always been censorship resistant, not censorship proof. And this goes for every network in cypher or except maybe some of the privacy lag minera, for example, where is default privacy? So essentially get Better guarantee because you don't know what's happening on the network anyway.

So how can sensitive ship happen? It's still happens because you can have censorship at the centralize exchange then. But we talking about just the chain right, and not really tested IT.

Essentially, what ended up happening is that ninety plus percent of the network was censoring tomato transaction at one point. And guess he wasn't the always stakers right. Most of the always stakers were not doing IT, so they were the defense of last resort.

Here they were, the final ball work against completely total censorship on the ethier network. And now imagine if a the a thim new ork didn't have solar stakers. Imagine if IT was only a big bunch of, I guess, like beefy kind of stakers, that apart of all essential zed companies and you have obvious ly on the block build decide as well as anxious zing then.

But when he comes to validate is there were the last resort because I like five ten percent of them weren't building their blocks with these block builders. They were building them on on their own here. So imagine we didn't have that. You imagine the the counter factual world here is essentially that they'd be total censorship of tomato cash on the network or or much closer to that reality. So I think if you actually look at the objective evidence that we already have, so as that is all that final ball work against this, and this is more of a kind of va, I guess, preference thing, more of a long term thing, maybe you don't care that turn to cash is totally sensitive if you can trade your favorite main coin still, that again is just a preference thing. But IT has a lot of downtown train effects that has a lot of consequences because if you're building things on the network, IT doesn't matter what IT is. If you are building things and you think yourself, well, I could be sensitive one day by the whole network simply because the government doesn't like what i'm building, then you ably going to be like, maybe I could build this on a chain that actually has a chance of you resisting this essentially uh so that's that's the way I kind of you at that but as I said, this is like a very long discussion and we could spend the whole episode on this um but I think that I does come down to a personal preference thing as well.

Cosmo, at on a break point or no, took a in twenty forty nine, made a presentation about why soul will eventually flip east and summarizing that presentation are down into just a few nights. It's more just like look at the metrics s transactions to rupp texians erp economic fee revenue is up and then also a theoria has has been so slow uh the theory projects nine years took him fever to shape profess ke with the hello they doing ah they took him driver to find a scaling road map and they picked a terrible one is so eventually alona will flip in east mainly metrics and then timing what what would you say to this?

I say inside hidden tes, always a beautiful thing, right? Like you can look back and be leg why they takes so long to do this? It's like, well, I mean, no one else was doing IT guys.

Like, I mean, if there improved mistake is is extremely novel, it's it's very different to the other proof stake. Netware, I think people are aware of that. And and IT also I talked so along because if there is a truly essential zed acr system was a coordination issue of getting all these people to coordinate, build this thing.

He's a lot hot off because of the fact that if they're started decentralized, very specialized from from day one, basically, especially by i'm studying by proof work, getting the community involved, directly involved in mining like from day one, that was the the principles there. So I think that's why a lot of things took long. One of the reasons, but also we have to invent a lot of things where they ent a lot of ways to to do different things. And to be sure, salon has also had to invent a lot of things to scale themselves up as well.

They've got tons of Normal technology that they've come up with themselves to benefit their own ecosystem and to say that like they're so far ahead of of a theory um and yes, they're Younger and network, but they say that they are like all the way of here, even to compare things like so on to have to with the improve stick I think is wrong considering they just different piece, right? They had to do different things that they built differently um and their different ecosystems altogether. In terms of metrics, I think it's very dangerous for anyone to over index on metrics at all.

And we have very nice, I guess, evidence of that nice within the thermal system where if you just take a snapshot of, like twenty twenty one serum, just take a snapshot of that, look at the fair and you look at the activity, look at the day five volumes and say, oh my god, this is gonna. Ue, if I can disclose the ming of, like, hey, the trends are up and if you did that writing twenty, twenty one and and assumed that, then you would be a really bad place because all of those assumptions were completely wrong. That growth did not continue, obviously, because we went into a bar market, they fear when you came down substantially, not just because of the ban oka, but because of the things that I mentioned early.

And and of course, if there am took a longer to get this to get the scaling stuff ag, get the altus live, get them mature enough to have cheaper fees and things like that. So I I, I really don't think people should be like looking at the today's metric or even like the last six months and and extract letting that out to the longer term that that definitely is not the case no matter what IT is with encysted because things changed very, very quickly. And I think kyle likes to imagine that sonar exists to only comply with the theory um when there are so many other competitors out there, like as you mentioned earlier, David, there is suited and apps and say and no that and barret in all these other l ones that we are very serious about competing as well.

They not just like they game l ones that are like we don't care about campaign know, we just do its our good cash out, whatever. I mean, sure this some of that but like they're very serious about this and they know necessarily going to be competing with a theoria because they know a role up kind of, uh, I guess, centric chain. They're in l one trying to scale up the l one.

Sorry, the call to be like god is just a theory that we're camping with is like bar, like look around you, like there's all these other competitions. You shouldn't be just indexing on a theory. He also for for those reasons, i'm not gonna say whether like souls gonna flip, eat.

I know I think that's like a wrong way to kind of think about IT, but I will, as I said, like over indexing on on matrix is always a very dangerous, dangerous thing. And extrapolating the mount metrix are fine. We want them to be going up, but extract letting IT out as if that growth gonna continue into the future is is a dangerous game.

I think, by the way, have you guys seen the recent like megadeth like projections in terms of transactions per second?

Is just yeah just like yeah .

it's like IT isn't like something like ten thousand transactions per second.

They're like a .

hundred thousand.

but I after I take these things to the all because it's always fun to quote test net figures and internal figures and then you go on my net.

You like, yeah I mean, like we do want to be architecture if you go full like P S, and you just kind of centralized sequencers and you go kind of like all in the way, many if this basically dalling that to max, I like it's almost impossible IT is impossible for an l one to actually like exceed that from a transaction .

perspective to take a kind of, I guess I an to A A note from the sonic camp where they they like to say that you know sooner as fast as the speed of light, right? All of the the validates communicated the kind of speed of light. A they they process transactions at all near the speed of life because they're sing beef fy nads, going over over five the connections and attending a bit per second connections.

And you know IT looks like they're doing that to an extent. But then with with the altus, you don't have that issue because you don't have consensus like you don't need to come to consensus on anything. So as you said, and l two can be super centralized and makes atheists cmm that they can have transactions that kind of go through and like ten million seconds or one million seconds of you know, faster than the speed of light.

But the way they're thinking about transactions and the way that sona thinks about IT, it's like, well, they're not technically finalized because they have to go through the serum l one pipeline. And i'm talking about finalization from a technical perspective, not from like a economic security perspective. So there there are differences here like that could be reverted for whatever reason.

At the sequent level. A theoria l one blocks, uh, twelve seconds. There are slot times at twelve seconds or that the the long period of time they have rather than then once along a has the four a Milly second target. So when you look at a from of that perspective, I ouldn't say it's like one to one comparison here. But at the same time, you have to look at like what users are doing and where users are and what the experience is going to be.

If they're getting really amazing experience on on mega eighth, where phase is just like dirt shape face, don't go up that so much tp s happening there and and that drives activity to IT, they are going to go there as well, of course. right? Not gonna are about the underlying kind of stuff.

Not to say we ouldn't still build that. And as I just said, it's very important for us to prioritize the centralization here. But there are kind of trade off C. A. And the users are going to go where they are going to go. And I think we have evidence that users are happy to go to wherever that gives them the cheapest kind of transaction fees and also has a lot activity for them to do, like a lot of things to speculate on, of course.

Okay, let's go to the group of criticisms that are more coming that i'm seeing from uh inside the A A thorium community. At least you like some members of the theory um community kind of taking a look at all of us and saying hate like did we make a misstep with the the road map in kind of dub tails on some of what we were talking about but let me sharp in these criticisms a little bit. Basically the idea is that was a mistake to um pivot so much in the direction of uh serum little and like point taken that they're not parasitic.

But um if we outsource all of the defy, if we outsource all of the execution, if defy itself moves off of a the theory layer one and goes to these altus, well that's going to take both the value of cruel from a year like either the asa self and I will be a case of kind of the tailwind es, the dog IT will like shift control and the nexus of power, the nexus of defy into these layer two and from uh theory um and uh be not like disastrous or or maybe like um net negative for ether ability to exist as a money and this goes on which the basically says that the serum communities kind of naive ve to trust these altus. You're just like some of that the the altus themselves aren't actually going to decentralize. They are not going to get the stage to.

They're incentive to do that. They like the the sweet M E V fees. They are not going to decentralize their their sequencer. They're kind of unit for a themselves. They don't have full economic alignment.

And so that the summary here goes, no, should get back to its layer one and make the l one great again. Make sure that defy has a home on the l one and not continue down the path of like increasing blob space. And it's all about altus and the olpc.

Great math. yes. So this is actual good criticism and well thought criticism. This is not like you gotten h gets variety fun, which is very nice. And I actually agree with a lot of IT, to be honest.

I think that we did over index on rose and and laid, and I think that we should have more focused on the l one. But I I think people are expecting us to do to a theory M L one what like elana did to their l one, right? And that's never going to be the case.

There's just completely different based here. A C M L one is not going to scale up execution like that. But in saying that we should do more things to scale up a theory um l one especially for for altus I think because. It's not as blogs we we can add more blogs and give out to chap er face here.

But by scaling up the l one in terms of increasing the actual l one gas limit, we give more capacity to not just end users but also the altars and by potentially doing things like reducing slot times from two, five seconds to even two seconds, which is is is a big ask. But if we do do that, that is extremely beneficial to altus because they get fast to finally, they get fost kind of transaction inclusion guarantees and we make best raw obs ital. Because instead of having to wait up to two of seconds to get a transaction, included its its maximum of kind of two seconds there and you enough to use something called preconditions tion as like as a stop gap there.

Um so I think from that perspective, absolutely we should be doing that from an engineering coordination perspective. It's not an easy task. IT is a longer term thing.

IT is something that needs to be not only prioritized but also to be data driven the way the serum called development process works with anything is that they want to see data on things they want to see. How is gonna fect the network? How's is going to affect the ban with usage of the network is a big concern overall for the serum.

L I, wis is going to affect you. How is is gone to affect apps? How's is gone to affect people storing the chain and emitting ibt of IT? There is all these things that we care about us as an equity stem that are prioritized um and then we can think about doing this self people want want to do.

So I think that from that lend, the reason why IT may seem like we put too much emphasis on the alters is that goes back to my former point where I said that they move a lot faster because there's more and numbers that enough to go through this process necessary. They have their own kind of process that they go through there. And that's why the l one has naturally moved slow.

I am will always move slower than than the altus, I think. But that's not to say that we shouldn't put more of IT on the l van. And there has been a lot of team working on this, not just that the protocol lever would also at the client level, the um execution ally of clients such as another mind and ref are pushing very hard on scaling themselves up even if the network itself isn't doing that right now.

Even then, if the network itself, like the protocol is is limited in what I can do, the clients are write there ready to go. Like if we want to crease the capability, the clients can handle that right if we want to crease the gas limit, the clients can handle that. They're really working on this stuff.

And then eventually, when IT goes through, kind of like the protocol level stuff, we can do and do IT safely. So I think that that's critically important to keep mind is that we need to do is safely because I think one of the worst case in areas for a theory um is moving too fast at the alone breaking something and then all the alto go offline as well. People do not realize that the altus go offline when the alone go off line.

I mean, offline is is a term you can on aya, but essentially they rely on the l one and goes back to the parasitic s embodied thing, right? So if you if the l one goes offline or something bad happens to the l one, IT has massive downstream effects across the entire system, and that's why we prioritize stability over this scalability. But we can still do more at l one. I completely agree with that.

I actually made this point on twitter before the layer one goes down, all the layer tools. I think I said the words go down, which is actually in technically not perfectly true because the layer two blocks will still produce. So maybe you can kind of suss out that point because the layer tools, they will still produce new blocks. You can actually put more transactions into the layer two blocks. So what do you mean by the later tools go down?

yeah. So kind of like is easiest to illustrate when we think about assets. So for example, if the kind of l one goes down and your asset was issued on the l one, let's say you have eighth.

Eighth is issued on the l one. It's not issued anywhere else. And you bridge that eth into the altus, that IT is now worthless.

If the l one is offline because there is nothing backing IT, it's essentially an an I O U, as I said before. But essentially you've got to no collateral backing that eh. So if you're an alterna saying, well, I can still kind of move my funds around.

I can this blocks being process. I'm going to send um some funds to essentialize exchange in cash ots in my eat there. The essens exchange is not going to honor that because there's nothing backing that. Now that's just a worthless token that don't want.

But if you think about something like U S D C and if that is issued even on the l one, but if it's issued on the l two circle can just say, well, this is the baLance of U S, T C. In this person's address. We have the collateral in a bank account.

It's not on the M L one. We can just zr IT out on A C, M, L one. Replenished this for our users and just redistribute IT out. So essentially, there's no net loss there of the asset, but every natively issued asset on the alone would become worthless on on the alto because you can no longer access the actual asset. So that, I think is the the cleanness way to explain IT.

Then there's a lot of intricacies about what happens to defy positions, what happens to like N F T downstream of that, right? One of they worth now that you can't unwind them or you can't can't settle them down and then obviously you lose like all your sentiment guarantees now like you'll literally just like a completely centralized server a there there's no proof that anything happened on the l two. On the l one.

There's no very viable proof that you literally trusting the l two to do what IT says. So and and there are other things that falling in to this IT really does depend on how the alto is constructed in what stage there in terms of these centralization. But the asset thing, I think is the thing that drive with the most is that you're not getting your eth back of theory um girls offline because there is no there is no eth anymore like themes offline, it's gone and and it's worthless. Now yeah.

I think the point really to illustrate to drive home is that ensure the layer two blocks can keep on producing. But if the property rights is severed between the layer one in the layer two, then just like you have the silo database that's not interconnected with the rest of the ecosystem. So yes, so like germany later could reissue you your USD c but like what are the odds that the l two is just kind of come back online and fix this?

Yes, before he does yeah you're .

just going to have to just wait for the link to be established, establish between the layer one and the layer two.

Turn the conversation to um some concerns that the market might have call these um non tribal neutral investors who are just looking to place bets in the space uh and they might see either being squeeze between bitcoins money narrative and salon as D G E Y U X and revenue positive layer one uh the bitcoin etf inflow garanti uh the e east inflows into the e tf haven't actually been able to outpace Grace ale outflows and so where actually still negative uh with the gray scale alfas meanwhile so long economic transaction fees arrival in the a term layer ones. So bitcoin on one side getting the strong money premium, a bitcoin, definitely money. So on, definitely getting the revenue, uh, either kind of money, not much revenue. Uh, so get eez. Ed, how do you, how do you think about this?

I think a theory. And as an asset, they have always been the middle child of the ecosystem, right, where you have like eight trying to compete with B2C as thi s mon ey sto rage val ue tha t nat urally mak es the bit coin is not lik e a t he ory mon eth. And they already don't like a theme for other reasons.

So they naturally attack IT, discredit, so on and so forth. And then you have the other side de, which is the l one competitor, ors. And they're directly competing with the theme for, as you mention, like things like transaction fear.

When you do five volumes, user activity, stuff like that, they're not necessarily be paigning with eighth to be money or they are not even trying to do that. Whether IT becomes money, it's up to, I guess, social consensus, but like they're directly competing on that front. But that somebody that I need to do because bitcoin is handling that. So it's like this attack or it's like, okay, you guys come at eighth as the money thing will come to the theory as like a Better platform because we can do more fear when you have more activity and we'll just like spread so much fun about the theory um that people will think it's dead when it's worth a hundred billion dollars and IT has use your activity still like and it's growing, you know. So when is so forth?

It's actually I just like I very much identified with that like this is why feels like everyone hates uh a theory um sometimes right it's like I mean it's not in our head is almost always been like this. I remember when I was like other you know blockchain ecosystems where there's like bitcoin in in Cosmos where Cosmos said is doing the obtained vision but bitcoin is like our money and our you like money. No, of course they're not money. We're just trying to build an n APP chain network that there is this lines between like Cosmos and and bitcoin and it's always been pincher attacked. And I guess that's why IT feels like it's it's a hated asset from like across all the tribes.

Yeah exactly. And and I think it's impressive that even in the face of that, eth can be still worth what IT is. A ithiel still is, I believe, the biggest kind of ecosystem with encrypt or in terms of like to build within, it's still growing like hugely actually like down to is absolutely killing a right now terms growth.

The alone still has usage. But in our contrary popular belief, I still has like forty four billion dollars or something worth of tvo like IT still at home to a lot of capital, a lot of defy, a lot of self going on there. So I think that even in the face of all of that, like a serum has just put now gone through that has persisted through that.

And it's been able to live our things that people actually find valuable here. But I think that that kind of pince er attack is is always going to exist because yeah, you're slack between those two camps and and those two camps are a quite strong from being honest, like especially the big coin camp, like because of the fact that BTC is is is worth a lot and eat has be to see over the long term. And and as you mention, like A T F influences reinforced that kind of narrative there IT becomes a lot easier for that to stick for people with people like, well, eighth failed at baying money.

It's ob tasty now are crew eighth there like grow a sort of thing where I I believe, as I said before, that more of a shorter term out. Look, I believe if you look along the term out, I think that eighth still has a very strong shot at at being potentially work as much as BTC or if not the firing. And i'm not going to use the f word yeah.

But that tell us if you look longer term out because i've always believed that like yeah, you can have that social consensus around something being money, a story value, which is incredibly powerful. But then to grow that beyond just as social consensus to use kind of like objective measures you need to have like the user activity to back IT up. So i'm not talking about things like fear and knew anything like that.

I'm talking about what I said before in terms of increasing the network effective eaters and asset because money is just the network effect at the end of the day, right? The more people that that hold and buy an asset, it's worth more. Even if you look at something like a fiat currency, like U S.

Day, for example, there isn't it's worth more than everything else, every other, I guess, like fiat currency in the world. If you actually shot this out, you can see this over the time is not because IT itself is like a good store value or a good asset to hold against maybe gold or against beta a. But IT is against other fear currencies now because he has the strongest network effect, right? IT is like a reserve asset.

IT is used everywhere, people in countries like uh and is backed up by a really strong economy as well, which is, I guess, like the point that i'm making about at the a theoria economy backing eat as an asset as well as eat having that social kind of monetary premium story, value story around IT. So I think while we're getting pinter attacked by two different kind of tribes, we're also pinter attacking the money. And we're basically saying you can do birth attack the money use case, get get IT from social consensus, but also get IT from economic activity.

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with yeah what what interesting is like uh a serum has always, I guess, fight against bitcoin monetary narrative. And bitcoin certainly had a strong, even stronger monetary narrative relative to either in like twenty nineteen as evidence by like the ratio. I mean, that was a really low point in the eth bitcoin ratio. What feels a little bit different this cycle is the strength of the pinza attack from all the alternative layer once, at least at this point in the cycle.

And so at least going into kind of like twenty, twenty one you like, and twenty twenty two and onwards, a theory had sort of the the big exciting on chain use cases like I had defy all of the exciting things in nfs and kind of the cultural narrative were also happening within the uh, a thorium economy as well. One thing I didn't have is kind of this algorithm stable coin narrative. And elon, ta took that and like they took IT to their grave.

But like I had the bulk of all of these use cases. And i'm wondering if this time around in this cycle, you see a stronger cohorts of competitors in some these alternative lair ones, in particular salon. I'll say that the average like investor who looks at this uses this to kind of justify the barbell approach of, like all I need is egypt of money and that i'll pick the number one, which is bitcoin, and then bet on these fast layer ones you like alternative layer ones, primarily silan a saturn so they do bitcoin and the oh one overweight sona plane they skip, eat altogether. Do you think it's kind of different this time?

I do think it's different in that like we do have serious competitors um you know this this kind of time around like i'm not going to sugar card dad and say that I don't think this serious competed competitions. They definitely all objectively all as well if you measure IT by what some but been going on in the ecosystem of which I think is great, honestly for a theme overall, pushes us how the competition is not a bad thing.

And but in terms of like the the barbell strategy, the kind of I guess like a money strategy, your way we invest your money. I think if if you look at from like a bobl perspective, you kind of I map this out to what's logical conclusion of, well, if one side of the bobbles, the money and the other side is like maybe your tech growth kind of thing, then that tech growth thing is just going to go through cycles of being replaced by something else. Because if you're trying to get upside in an asset, right, you're not going to go for the assets that are already big.

Like if you're going for the growth outside, you don't want to bet on assets that are already huge market cap like a BTC. You're not bedding on as a growth asset. You're bedding on IT as a story value, as a money.

It's gonna go absolutely over time to put other things and then you bet on like the hottest new tech play. So that will always get rotated out. So you always changing that side of the bobl.

So I think from from that strategy, that's not a long term strategy for the other side of the barber. It's good for B, T, C, but that other side is always going to be rotated out for something else. So I think that eighth needs to just worry about the BTC side.

I don't think eight necessarily needs to worry about the the tech growth side because of the fact that we were already on that side of the barbell at at one pointing time, right? We were there and then we got rotated out for something else because eighth mature IT doesn't asset IT got bigger. IT is no longer something that looks like a pure growth, like massive growth kind of tech play.

It's more of more closer to B, C. So would say that if it's a ball analogy east kind of sitting in middle right now, right, and it's trying to edge closer to the B, T, C side, that's what we want to we don't want to be on the left like because as as I said, the left gets routed out and he's already been there and being rotated out. So we're trying to push ourselves to the the right side, which which is the BTC that so I think that as long as we can keep doing that um and as long as we can keep reinforcing that, as I mentioned, by our economic activity, but also via the story of of eighty money um I think we can eventually succeed there.

But yeah, IT is a long term that there's a lot of unknown. You are depending on the top of investor you are. You're not onna allocate to eat if you're just in of the growth play or if you just want to be really, really safe and say i'm going to going to BTC because that to me looks like I already got everything it's gonna up only from he is got the A, T, F inflows, someone and so forth.

But again, the upside is is very limited. But in terms of like, I mean, you're gna still get upside, of course. But in terms of other things, yeah, it's gonna the least outside you're gonna basically. I think entity .

a bit of discourse has been going around crypto twitter lately is a theory am's lack of north star or maybe he has an our star, but no one can articulate what IT is. Uh, big one has an north star is digital gold, a song? Is north star? Is decent rise nasdaq or consensus of the speed of blight?

Uh, what's the theories on our star? And or does IT is there a problem that we can't really articulate? one?

I go back to what I said earlier about getting involved in these kind of like bike shooting arguments. And for those who you don't know what bike sheep is, that basically this phenomenon of, like, when you have a group of people together and you have to decide on something small, IT becomes like this huge thing. And the analogy is, what's what color should be? Paint the bike shed.

And there's like ten people deciding this. Everyone's gonna just keep going in circles about what color to paint IT if there's no, I guess, leader or no coordinator to have that final decision because if everyone's got the say that everyone just keeps going in circles, I think that's what happens with these north start discussions because the theory is such as this centralized ecosystem, there is no single personal single entity. They can define what a theory um is like.

Originally, a serum had this, I guess, tag line of being the world computer. And that came from the early of theory, um kind of people where IT was much more centralized because I was just starting out like this world computer thing and that didn't stick at all because I didn't really make sense on the surface like someone thinks of a computer that I don't think of something incredibly slow like theme alvan is in terms of computer power, right? And I was mean to death essentially.

And we don't use IT anymore. But another reason why we don't use IT is is well that the reason we don't use IT is because of that social consensus of we don't like this thing. The more decentralized theory and became the more people rejected that description of a theory.

Um then we had meandering through a bunch of different things like a theory is the new instance t for example um eighth is money is another one which is obviously, uh, just for the eighth asset, not for the we went through these two minds, you start off is p to P A money now is digital gold, right? And now the money thing is not even discuss the old people saying, no one, no, you don't use your B, T, C as money like you keep IT. It's a story value.

So it's just a social consensus thing when IT comes to centralized and network is not something that you're gonna told what IT is. And I think the same is onna happen in in salona as as time goes on as well. Like yes, today is essentially zed as that finance at the speed of light.

I've seen another one, but that's already two that's already like more than one. So the bigger that ecosystem gets and bigger any ecosystem gets, the more you're gonna have this fragmentation of a corporate stop. So I think the premise again is just like flawed IT doesn't really have any kind of meaning here.

But what is up happening is when you have like an absence of this is you essentially have a social consensus on what uh I think should be and I think within a few, even though we haven't go like one thing to point you, we've call less around this roll up centric road map of essentially keeping a theory um l one decentralized and then scaling by altus. That is the closest thing I think we have if we talking about a serum as as a platform. And that came naturally.

Yes, metal. I originally proposed the role centric grow map, but that was after people had already been working on IT all he did, we say, hey, like this seems like a the very map that we've always wanted here. IT is.

And then people call this around that. And there have been some kind of like splinter factions, so to speak. They say, well, now we need to scale out one more, or the roll up centro graph was a mistake.

But but that's fine. There was plenty of factions in bitcoin too. No, we don't believe that bitcoin s block size should stay limited.

We are going to fork off a bit in cashing. Go be money, right? Or go do this or go to do that. So that exists. But as long as the core remains the same, I think that that is that is they're really the north star in the end, the social concerns around that core.

So I think while the theory doesn't have a tag taggi kind of like mini fun one line up to describe IT, IT has social consensus around a path. And we've been on that path for four, five years now, and we're going to be on that path for more for more years than that probably told the end of the decade to really realize this vision. And I ve just seen that strength.

And over time, that obviously, because we have alters, we have altus that work to gone cheaper. We're improving the alone for the altos, so on and so forth, so that that's generally how I view that. But going in circles around trying to find a one line out to describe a theory um is is just going to be just bike shedding.

I would love for people to like if you ask the question, what's the internet north star? I would someone you like ably answer that is like IT depends what error of the internet are we actually actually it's so general purpose that I can do is like so many things. It's e commerce and then it's like email, and then it's like a social networks and now it's like A I.

It's so many different things at once. I do agree with you though a serum does have a north star with respect to its road map. Like having been in a theory um for like some time, I don't think i've seen the the theory road map is clearly articulated as now. I mean, do you remember back in like twenty eighteen when I was very unclear was very unclear what the next steps war to accomplish, this entire vision was and not .

like much in. And if I look back to IT was a complete and total miss. Like I I don't think people realized just how bad IT was that.

People like to say seven many is so bad right now. For a theory, m IT looks like a theos dying, whatever. That's obviously all untrue. But like a lot of those people maybe went around in twenty, twenty and twenty, sentiment was within the core theory and group was actually pretty good because we believed in what we were building. We had confidence in IT.

But outside of IT, if there um was writing off is like completely and uterine dead and IT actually looked like a good right and actually look like IT um but but yeah as you said, there was no road math really proof of stake was completely up in the air. We had no idea what was going on with that. We had no idea what was going on with anything else.

Really like shopping as well. Thought we were going to prove stake as a smart contract right exactly months away from that and the s anymore. We're totally shifting that idea.

Yes, exactly. Literally, literally. I don't think people realize. But like we approve of stake, they literally completely pivoted the road map. The all the old work was discarded.

I think only a few things from that old work. We were kept, everything was disgusted by, started from scratch, and then launched that as a new chain. And then we did emerge like the amount of kind of things that had to go right for a thumm to even get to arise today is insane.

And I think that gets lost in the source. People don't realize all of the things that a thereof has achieved so far. Spoor is going to be part of my bank of summer talk because I feel like it's worth mining people of this stuff. And then they they look at just the present, which is fine, like the present, obviously important.

But I think learning from the past, seeing where we've come from and and getting confidence from that, looking at the present thing at the present kind of state of things, maybe changing course we need to, and then looking out into the future and saying the way logically is gonna god. And I think a theory has never been in a Better bad position, like it's objectively true that we've never been in a Better position as an ecosystem. Yes, we ve got Better competitive, but that's fine.

That means that there was going to a be Better and IT IT already is playing out where the alto like will screw you. We can do what you can do and Better, and they're marketing this out there. And they are actually putting the live in the network basis scaling every week. I don't think realize they're actually increasing the gas limit every single week is scaling up. They're doing so much tp s the op stack is killing IT like i'm going i'm going going to rent here right now but he seems like getting all these these they stop happening on the newark has never been a Better time in an inferior.

in my opinion. Okay, well, we ve punched down. You've down some the critics here. Let's let's get into the the bulk ase. I think you ve articulate a lot of IT.

I want to ask a more targeted question on the bulk ase for either the asset in the serum, the network are there any bull catalist ahead of us? Like what do you see that kind of exciting I mean mentioned based draw ups A A little bit earlier? Um of course weren't. We're not done the ul to road map and we're going to continue to expand blob space. But when you look at the the road map and what's ahead, are there any bull catalans that that you see for a serum?

Yes, so I I think you know, people always like to rally around some kind of big cattle is for right, like A P one, five, five, nine, emerged the beef in chain, launch someone and so forth, which is great IT access coordination kind of thing where everyone alive.

right? I remember like last bull catalyst for either was like the etf and like that didn't like fully materialized. Now like maybe that's slipper made that age like a fine line and that's the hope. But like you kind of have to have something to look .

forward to yeah I I think so. But then you can also look at bitcoin. And I had nothing to look forward for ages and done just fine, right? sorry. You know I mean, like the atf was the last big thing that they had to look forward to really in, in the last few years, like there's really been nothing else because they aren't change in that work.

There was a little bit of energy around ordinary, but that this seems to affaire IT to be not to say it's gona way or won't come back whatever, but more simply, ambika uninterested in that, right? I don't even talking about that. So I think if you look at that as a counter example, you don't necessarily have to have something to always look forward to.

But if i'm being totally honestly, I don't think there's anything as big as emerge, for example, down down the line in terms of like one singular events that everyone can rally around. And that's like this big, huge thing that's coming. But there is a lot of kind of uh, incremental stuff uh, over the next few years, a lot of stuff to just continue to happen because theory is now a mature ecosystem because we have got a lot of the kind of puzzle places in play.

Now we can just keep building on top of that. So it's more of a snowball effect where the snowboard l just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger over the time rather than having like the big snowball that sit in there for you to go play with sort of things. So that's that's how i'm viewing IT.

Now if people actually look at the road map and this is timely because what I just put out his final blog post about six part series of the theme he describes. Each part of the road map and then uh, what the goals are for that that that kind of area of the road map and then what that actually means for the developers and users, someone and so fought capabilities, stuff like that. So how they recommend people go to a task blog and to read of those that among those things there is again, not like this big thing, right?

There's not this big event because they're all happening in parallel so that all the sequent al words like, okay, well, this part of the rima t happens now then in the yeast time this one will happen. It's like, okay, part of this room now happens now, part of that happens now as well that part what happens later someone and so for but again, it's all kind of like just overall improving. If you mica system improving thim network.

And I right now can't see like that one kind of big thing anymore, which again, as I said, I don't think is necessarily an issue because if we look a bit coin, that hasn't been an issue for them. I know that the premises is different. Hearing that bitcoin dos doesn't do anything, it's literally just like a story that in our any social consensus thing about of being a money story of value.

But I think that that is the same for like eight is an acid, like as we have discuss before, about eight thing money also the theory network um if you if you believe in the role tric grow map if you vibe with that, if you think that alto uh awesome and gonna keep growing a theory as a network which I think that we can all agree on IT has been the case so far and and seems like I should be the case in to the future again, not extract out certain dcr. We're all about taking bets like the that all investing is really about taking bets on on the future. Um essentially if you believe of that, then you believe that the theory ica system is going to grow dramatically from here.

I may say the word incremental like IT means like small little things. But in terms of growth, I think that we've got like you know thousands of times tens of thousands of times growth ahead of us because we're barely on board most of the world into crypt or people say all well, there's one hundred million people whatever, that own crip to assets. Okay, cool.

But how many of those people are on chain? Because the majority them are not on chain. They're in centralized exchanges.

And this is actually one of the basis for infinite x, which is kind new project. All these people are essential zed exchanges. They do nothing else.

They're not on chain. They never go on chain. They sit there.

They actually user s are they have the assets. Let's give them a way to use them. Let's let them do stuff with these things. And if we look at that from that perspective, the entire industry, not just the theory A M to be fed, the entire industry is growing like dog training industries is going to grow so massively from here.

So while the actual, I guess, like upgrades to the theme network and to the auto may seem more relatives that we're not going to be having this massive kind of event to look forward to. But we do have to look forward to is on boarding billions, literally billions of humans and trillions, if not more, of of machines. That's another thing that's become a big thing lightly, but something that I know that you guys talk about for a while now about these machines coming on chain, these A I agents, like actual A I, A I agents, not just A I dressed in a five cosine trench code, right? Like actual. So if if you look at from that perspective, there is no reason not to to be bullish unless unless you think that the l two aren't going to capture this activity, that if theme isn't going to capture activity, that the reason to be barish. But from where i'm sitting, that doesn't seem to be the case.

IT does seem like the like alt momentum is very strong as kind of like a nobo rolling down hill at this point. It's like with crack in just last week. You like all of the major centralized exchanges, now have l two strategies basically anyway that will continue to kind of roll downhill.

And I think a lot of the trends speaking to our um you like just moving forward, an accelerated pace when this episode will come out after an episode the day after an episode that we will release with just and drag and the episode de with with drake was all around based roll ups and kind of the future and and why is kind of bullish based roll ups remember we did an episode earlier of with max rosny whose kind of critical of the atherton layer two road map piece like once to quote, quote, make the l one great again even to the extent of like if we have to sacrifice solo stakers that was his take not like our take um but um anyway ah we asked the question that episode hey max, if all of the elves overnight were converted to based relapse meaning that they used a thein validators for sequencing rather than the centralize sencer with that kind of solve the l two alignment problem you you're talking about and he was basically like, yes and and so I want to ask you this question. Do you think that based roll ups are going to be i'm not gonna say a silver bullet. Nothing's silver bullet.

But do you think that this will solve some of the outstanding issues that authorities like is perceived to have with l two alignment and even like problems like liquidity and fragmentation and keeping um defy on the the layer one all of these things. How bullish are you are optimistic? Are you on on this technology?

Yes, I would say that obviously um justice gona dive day into this on on that episode. I mean, as you said, this comes out after that people have learned a lot about based rops from from him. He is like one of the champions of IT I would save from from my understanding of them and from all the researchers that i've done.

Um IT, as you said, isn't a silver bullet, but he is like really fucking cool legs, part of my language leg. When you look, it's really cool because not only does IT tightly coupled the altus to the l ones, so IT actually not only on on the surface like in terms of like talking about IT, but actually feels like one kind of united of theory. Make a system like you're under the theory a umbrella.

But IT drives more revenue to to a serum at once. So people who like to see more revenue like to see those numbers, like to see that direct value, a cruel to eighth the asset and to the theme network. That's a Better for IT.

You get Better in probability between the different kind of latude and robotics because of the fact that they're sharing um I guess like uh a sequencing while on on the l one uh and you get access to the most decentralized validation set in the world. No other validation set is as decentralized as a theorist, not even bitcoins because a bitcoin mine is very centralized. People people maybe don't realize this, but it's it's quite centralized.

Um and if you look at the theory ms kind of value at a sets uh as as you said, like max maybe has his opinion that we should kind of maybe sacrifice solar stakers. I I don't think that should be the case at all because that's what gives us, as I went to my previous point from before, that what gives us our strength as as a network are. But it's not just a solo stakers, it's the hundreds econo, thousands of other entities that are staking on the network as singular entities.

You are I am providing that infrastructure p and then you can feel like icon on layer is what as well, like getting ABS is involved and doing things like not just on the roll upside, but things like oracles and stuff like that. So you're basically just like, uh, tightly coupling the ecosystem again. So essentially instead of fuzzing because that does feel fragments at right to to the end user, I does feel uh like when you have to bridge between different layers to and stuff like that, I totally understand that that's that's an issue that the entire ecosystem is actually focused on solving, by the way, like this is not something that we are just looking at being like all that's not an issue.

It's fine. We'll just ignore that and do these other thing not like coming today. Just today, there was twitter spaces with all of the major l two builders, almost of them talking about how to Better interOperate.

And it's actually in their best interest to do IT as well because of the fact that they're stronger together than they are a pot, much stronger together than they are our a pot. It's it's like doing alliances between nations that don't like you, like economic allegiances, like, okay, I don't like you, your culture doesn't buy with my culture, but hey, we both interested in an economic alliance CIA. Let's put us out our differences because we're stronger together.

Then we are separated because if we're separated and we're on our own, if you form alliance with the other people that don't like me, then I on my own, i'm here like all shit like you guys invite me or something. We're using the nation's statement ology. Yeah so I think the same is true for block chains where it's like, well, we don't unite if we don't know to want to umbrella like a theory, if we don't tightly couple ourselves to a theory, our one as as l two, we may just find out ourselves in the isolated island.

We weren't at the economic activity that we want. We want to get the liquidity, the tvi, the users, and we will basically lose because of that. You can have like the best technology, but because you haven't actually played nice with the entire ecosystem, which is your incentive, if you want to grow, then you end up in an isolated kind of place there.

So that's that's kind of how I view up. But to have to maxus point because max is very big on pushing the l one, as you mentioned, to have good bed roll ups. And when I say good best rops, I mean like based roll ups that can get as closest you can to the same guarantees as transacting on l 1n， you need to do IT at the l one slot time.

And what I mean by this is that you need to have your transaction included as part of a theoria l one block, not on a pre confirmation. So maybe doesn't going to explain this, but but I just want to try for people I bring information is basically a promise saying there's these people that run the software and they are like and they put. Like a lateral bond and I say, well, I promise to include your transaction in the authorities l one block um at some time in the future because a serum l one block right now or slit technically east twelve seconds.

So if you wanna get your transaction soft confirmed in like one second that can happen just going to the one, you have to wait those up to twelve seconds, whether a precondition tion can be as possible as the spread of light, basically. But that's a promise. It's not confirmed until it's actually in the otherwise one block.

And on top of that, it's not actually finalized on a theme like thirteen and a half. So there is still a potential of a real gue. That's what we call IT there. But to maxus point, reducing slots times to like two seconds, which as I said before, is a huge thing.

It's not something that we can do overnight, but reducing slot times from twelve to two is massive because of the fact that now we don't necessarily need pre confirmations like if I use a hut to wait like up to two seconds to get their transaction included on an l one block, I think that's fine. Same is leading up a website. I'm happy to wait a couple seconds by half two, right? I rather not because now there was short attention.

Spends these days like if I had to a bit fine, but then print confirmations are still a thing and they become even stronger because now instead of having to wait like twelve seconds, you wait two seconds. And then also there is the opportunity to do single slot finality. What this means, a finalization at the two second mark I get it's a huge kind of liftin, but essentially you get finality within two seconds, you get you can drive that confirmed.

And then basically what that means is that you get the best possible, guaranteeing you can get as a roll up on a theory um rather than doing things with your own sequence sign and putting all these bridges in. And then the users feel so far, the big capital feel so far. People tend to think that people don't care about this.

I'm saying you guys right now, well, not you guys, but like the audience, the big capital absolutely cares about this like they look at everything, they look at every single thing about um an alto, about the old ones, about where to put their money, what small contracts interact with because a lot of the time it's not their money. So they don't have the luxury of just following. They're not an S B F who like it's not you know it's IT tems just like putting a customer money into things.

No, no, a lot of these outfits are serious, like the black works of the world are not going to just throw their money into into some random thing that they haven't researched. So if you look at IT from that perspective, having a base roll up just gives you the best of kind of like all world, not a super bullet. Not going to be for every single use case because there are limitations here because you're basically not exactly limited by the l one.

But IT is IT does place a limitation on you, but you get that that internship that a that essentially like Better sensitive persistence and lively ss, because you're now part of the three ballet is said and it's just a huge unlock. And i'm sure just an explained all of this already more detail, but yet to say i'm bullishness on bathroom options and understatement. I'm very blushed on them.

But the reason why I think that I am not talking about them too much yet is because they are that little further away in terms of getting them to maturity. Two second slot time may not even happen like is a is a chance that I won't happen because I might be too heavy of an engineering lift and then people will be like, well, pre confirmations of fine, you know, they just do single slap finality of top seconds and then in the slopes. And then essentially what you get is the precondition tions of the top seconds, then you get finality.

And that might be good enough, quite, quite good enough rather than rearchitects ting you you're in protocol to handle this because it's not just the protocol, it's the people running nodes is the stake is in everything because now you're increasing load on the minute. Yeah it's it's a heavy lip in saying that one last thing you don't have to go from twelve to two. You can go from like twelve to eight, eight to six, sixty four all a time um and yet maybe more engineering work to do this, maybe more coordination, but by doing that you don't have there is risk necessarily you can be like, okay, well, we've been running on eight second slot times for like six months and everything seems to be OK.

Maybe we can load this to to six stop with done with blogs. We're running on three blogs since much networks been fine. I think I don't like bang with usage has gone up, but this work being down there.

But people like, okay, well, maybe we justify to increase blobs to four or five in the picture. Hard fork. We need them.

We need them to scale. The altus network is seems to be doing fine. So lets do that. So as I said, iterated things that snowball into a massive kind of thing for a theoria.

And then we've covered a lot so far on this podcast. We've uh covered the different ways that investors look if we covered the economics across, uh, different layer ones and the layer two model, we covered money this uh, we cover we tend to cover a lot of things when we talk about a theoria. Others like fifty different lenses for reviewing a theoria from fifty different perspectives.

There is kind of a prison and is actually IT is its logo uh and that kind of presents a marketing problem because when there are so many different ways of presenting a theoria, telling the story of the theory um can become difficult. Uh so how do we tell this story to the world? How do we get the world to understand theory um how do we get the world to care about a theory um how do we solve like a series like marketing problem ah.

I think it's a difficult problem to solve because of the reasoning. The outline for like the north style problem, like the north style is really like a marketing vehicle as well, like something you can point to for all your other marketing to fall off of.

But because the theory is, is a properly decentralized, distributed kind of ecosystem with thousands, tens of thousands of different participants, it's very hard to kind of agree on or I guess like coal, less around A H marketing strategy, so to speak, our communications P R strategy. It's very easy essentialize companies to do this obviously, because everything's in house is the top down approach you. But if there is a flat kind of organization, there is no like central figure.

Well, there is no a central figure that asserts its influence. Because there's been a lot of discussion recently about the theory foundation and say, hey, the theory foundation should be doing this. They should be doing more. Here they are like a central figure within a theoria. They have the influence and they have the money, of course, as well as as everyone has been talking about like they have a lot of money and but um people kind of them yeah they should be doing more here.

Now from from that perspective, I think people don't realize the the foundation of isn't t like that at all, hasn't been built like that from basically day one special over the last five years, where their philosophy is to push this stuff out to the community, to title and fund those efforts via grants and things like that, which the'd been doing, to be fair, like they ve actually kind of completed that Mandate. But then there are smaller things, like the authorities account on twitter, h bailly gets used that has millions of followers, and it's never used. And I think prior to the etf, this was mostly a regulatory and legal thing where I don't think that they want to the um the theory promote anything necessarily because that would maybe lend the S A C some arguments they could use to consider y IT as security and an other kind of legal and regulatory stuff that falls off of that, of course.

But in a post eth etf era where this is a commodity now, like it's objectively a commodity based on the evidence, isn't matter what the c says anymore. They approved the eighth etf based on earth being a commodity. It's there, trading is out there. Everyone agrees at this point that it's not a security except the big quin maxims like to call IT a security.

But and everyone saying I from that perspective, I believe that a thems marketing kind of efforts can be a lot more aggressive, and I believe the of the foundation can actually not necessarily do IT themselves, but maybe changed the stand a little bit and say, hey, okay, let's maybe give the a thum witter account to a group of community members long time trust the community members that can manage IT. And we'll put a set of guidelines out. You can promote this.

You can promote that because you don't want to be promoting games. Obviously, commenting individual project is always a funny thing. But maybe that account can tweet out things about the lay two road map, can say, hey, he is a nice explainer on what the role of centric grad map is he is why you know, he's a nice explainer and what eat this is an asset.

He is what's coming for you like you would like that like the um like important something like that basically, right? So not nor necessarily promoting individual projects. And that I think would be a an easy win and a huge win for the community.

And I actually a put a proposal ford, uh, not a proposal, but like I put a comment for on twitter where I said that the easier way to do this is just to have like one A F member, two one to two independent community members and and one person for maybe like a major theme kind of company, maybe consent or something is part of that management time for that account. And then they can yet have they guide lines and follow them and they got that's an easy, easy kind of win there. And then on on top of that, I think the the the foundation could potentially fund uh an effort that is focused on purely marketing.

P R comes, but like using world class teens for this, not just the community, the community is fine. But if you want to actually do proper marketing in P R communications, you have to hire people that are specialized in this field. You can't just rely on the community who just tweet bullish eight things.

That's that's not the same thing. So proper marketing efforts can be done here. But I do think that three of the main concern was those regulatory legal concerns.

But in this world of very now. Those concerns shouldn't exist anymore, I believe. And and and they should be more aggressive because I really know all the entity that would do IT consensus used to do IT.

But I don't know what's happening with them these days. They are quiet um whether the information is still there. They've got the money. They've the um the reputation as well um of being a very well run organization. Contrary to what you hear on there are extremely well run organization in terms of what they've been able to do over the years and what they have had to deal with as well as as a foundation.

Um so yeah long story short。 I think that there um should have much Better marketing um and public relations and communications, but you have to call us around where that is actually going to come from, where the findings is going to come from and who's actually gonna do IT but in the short term give the authorities twitter account to a group of long term etherium community members that are very ah I guess I trusted in a line within the three emission let them go crazy with IT because that will be a big win already because you already see how much attention vitals tweet get for example, like me, you unlike David ryan and may give you quan old tweet as much as we want but we view you completely differently to someone like fatality, right? For example, we have you'd completely differently in terms of our our reach as well.

Like our reach is very small compared to that. So if we have the a few um twitter account tweeting out these things and an educating more IT has like a thousand times more reach than we do and we can reach more people, we can get Better, Better kind of handle on marketing P R. So I think that's what needs to be done this so that I would actually say that's the biggest issue we have in the three mr system today, like by far is the communications marketing.

Um everything else I think is is quite alright. I think we're doing really well on that stuff. But yeah, marketing, we've always been bad of marketing.

I think yeah, I think I you like pretty much a group that take particularly on like we something I haven't said in a while that used to sell the time is the most bush thing for a theory to be good. And um I think that um the year marketing is like really kind of lacking. And so we're not educating enough people.

The one area I I would actually like say though is A A theme. The network and needs less marketing is still needs some marketing like and either the asset needs like much more marketing, much more focus like a thein, the network is already kind of reach escape ilo sy in taking off, where is either the asset how to value this thing with, either is a monetary asset or is just gas? I mean, even look at like black rock and trade fy and the way they pitch bitcoin verses either they pitch etha as kind of like a crypto technology growth internet like tech platform where bitcoin pitches NASA. And that's just flat out wrong, right? Both assets are long term storage value, monetary asset, lateral assets, and they're kind of like pitching wrong anyway.

I think from that perspective, just like when IT comes to the I don't think they don't now and which is just like A A natural consequence of having these two yeah well, yeah exactly. And and being the on the dog, it's it's like if they would a pitch B2C and gol d to inv estors in the sam e pre sentation, right, like they would probably could you quick on as a technology platform because of rising .

gold and store value?

Yeah, yes. Yeah, exactly. So I added from that perspective, it's it's kind of hard for them, but I think that they gone to be the biggest marketers of eat as an asset for sure and getting valued to either as an asset. But also, I don't know people maybe aware of this. I've waited about this and talk about this on my show.

I've talked to some of these etf issue is and they've said to me that most people I talked to haven't been heard of a theory um I have heard of a theory which is crying is wild considering how bigger theory um is. But I guess that's within our bubble. I I thought about bubble, obviously everyone told a big point because it's always in the news, right but the theory um yeah they haven't.

But then when they actually learn about IT, they as is probably a technology platform first, they probably don't pitch the easy money thing to them first, but that when they learn about IT as a tech platform, they started to really understand that and see see the value in IT quite quickly. So again, with you a point, ryan, yes, the most bullish thing for a theory um is to be understood and that flows on to ethers and asset as well. But I do think that if we can shore up the marketing around the serum as a platform, as a network, as a technology, the eighth um kind of asset staff will be downstate in of that ah because I don't think we should be going for eighth as an asset first because there really is a technology platform first.

And formers eight as an asset is is link to that and is definitely valued based on that. But also it's uses a store of value and and that kind of like a read rights, its value uh through the technology. Um but yeah, I think that we need to share about marketing the and to be a lot Better than what IT is today.

Obviously not just us saying IT, a lot of people in the community are saying IT. So so the way I look at things is that if the hate is are saying that if the people who love the theory of saying IT, if the usual parties are saying IT, then you can be pretty sure that IT is the right take right. If everyone saying IT like that from the different camps, you can be pretty sure that that is the truth, like maybe not the whole truth, but that is like, close, close. Yeah.

I think in this case, even eat may be even saying this. So I think this has been great. Thank you so much for you. Like the spending time give the bulcke here. Let's end with this in kind of what's next a category.

So um either the asset has had a look just call a lackluster cycle this cycle and it's like not clear that um I mean, David has taken to kind of debating whether we like we were ever in a bull cycle at all. Maybe we kind of in a bar cycle but like um so may be in this neutral limbo type rati. Maybe we're still in a bar market, I don't know, but it's not quite a full on bull market, but other communities are way up from their bottoms.

I mean, bitcoin holders are feeling pretty good. Some holders are feeling pretty good even in the all like you layer one ecosystem. Some projects aren't like doing quite well a either or not so much.

It's had a lackluster cycle so far and now the cycle is not done. I don't know for halfway through. I think a lot of us are expecting twenty twenty five to be a big year for crypto in general.

But uh, let me ask you, do we get a strong either this cycle? I mean, we're going to hit ten k plus. Like what what are you kind of your Price predictions? Because some people at this point are saying that this entire cycle will skip either the asset. And i'm pretty sure that's not your perspective. yeah.

I mean, it's definitely on my perspective, and there are multiple ways to attack this point. I think I think in terms of Price predictions, I think we couldn't be doing that anymore like overall, like with any asset, not just not just eighth, by the way, with B T, C, because I think there's always talk about BTC going to three hundred, four hundred or five hundred days cycle.

I actually don't think that's gonna the case at all, just based on the fact that stop looking at Price and look at market. Cap B2C is one poi nt thr ee tri llion dol lar ass et IT isn 't the top ten ass ets in the wor ld rig ht out of eve rything? Like for IT to go that high, three hundred, four, five, get this cycle.

Mind you, I am not talking about like ten years and talking about this cycle amount of money that would have to come in to push at that high is is massive, right? So I think that any asset you're looking at right right now, and especially the bigger ones yet doing Price predictions is kind of a false iron at this point. And and the sound of people do IT is because it's like, well, you don't want to be saying BTC is only going to one hundred k you want to say it's going to five hundred case so you can get four and get people in, get people buying, buying these things.

So I understand that from that perspective, but yeah, if you just look at the market caps like they're massive and on the market cap notice as well, if you look at obviously, salon is performed quite well against a this cycle, right then I take a abroad of view here and I look at what happens, I guess, like in the bear market if uh, and apple maybe over index on the short term here is like, I think slam was down like ninety six percent in the bay market. So like two six days, like seven dollars or something like that. And if you do the math on eth from four and one hundred and ninety six percent down is around one hundred ninety dollars.

I think I did this math recently. I think got a one hundred nine and doors went uh, to eight eight more than four times as as as a bottom here I like could be talking about like the cycle stuff. So so what was going? And if you look at the market cap, I think bottom like a five billion dollar market cap for eight, that was like a hundred billion dollar market account.

If you're looking at this as a USD market cap valuation kind of framework, then you can see from that framework why these other small assets just can go way, way beyond the eighth can now do I think that trends going to come from here? We saw that a hundred billion dollars eighth at, well, I think it's like eighty billion dollars, something eighth at three hundred and something billion dollars because on at one point, three illegal ars. And once you get til that kind of market cap territory of hundreds of billions, is a lot harder to move that asset.

A lot harder because you need a lot more money to move that asset. So I think that if you just take a snapshot of the last eighteen months, it's not giving you the whole picture on things. And I think the reasoning people over index on this.

Is that if I was just eighth going bleeding against BTC in terms of like not apparent bc, everyone would be choking this up to that just Normal cycle things because IT really is historically the Normal cycle of bt c dominance going up in a bear market because everyone flexed to safety when especially when rites so high. It's like why why would you buy the the risky kind of like stuff over here when we can just buy like really encysted a, we just buy the safest st asset, which is always leave right now. And then um of course, if if if so was in out performing, if some other things kind of weren't weren't going crazy like like mean coins and stuff, everyone would be like OK is just a Normal cycle here.

So I think that when you look at IT from yeah that makeup is active, that performance is perspective from like bottom to various now and into the future. I do think that eight is gna surprise people, not just from the ugyen tiny people may be being underalls ted to IT, but also from the etf. I know the etf has been a slow style for eh.

I do think that a big consequence of IT launching so close to the B2C etf. And then um the issue is not wanting to cannabis ze the b to C A T F as well. But also the Price performance too. Like if you're are looking to allocate to an etf and you look at BTC udder performance, you look at AIDS B D C looks a lot Better, alright. But IT works, works the other way where it's like OK, if aid starts going up for whatever reason, like million different reasons that can happen, then I think that people are going to for marine, so to speak, to to the eighty fcr.

So long story short, I have a very bullish outlook on eth, of course, but it's more longer term, especially because the market cap is bar and i'm shown next cycle encysted or we're going to have another asset that does really well against eth and B, C, right? That because IT starts from like a five billion dollar market cap instead of a hundred billion dollars, for example. And i'm sure we just funny to me to think about, but i'm sure next cycle, people going to be making fun of the the sona people like they make fun of the theory people now because it's going to be the same kind of talking points of like, no, we have this asset that is money, right? IT is a story of value.

It's going to do this, going to do that. So I think that we're just gonna ep repeating that, that kind narrow cycle over over again and IT all comes down to the size of the asset. And I think people miss that because they look at Price. No one look at the market caps.

And if you actually look at the market cap, I think slam as market cap is at all time high or its Prices, not because of the fact that the inflation has been high, a bitcoins, a market cap and Price at all time high today, but look at inflation adjusted Price as well. Then the one looks at that either either because inflate, adjust, that all time high is higher. What IT is at seventy three k whatever. IT is same for all the other assets. But I think people over indexing on Price is where the confusion stems from and where they may not be .

able to zoom out and say the the bigger picture here is going skip is going to have a blest cycle, at least only because so far, in the last time you've hit to a big coin, hit seventy k there's earlier this year and either was closer to fourth thousands, like thirty eight hundred and eight does, and this time is like twenty five hundred hundred. And people are saying like what like what's happening here and they're worried that the cycles just going to skip the glib program over eat.

I I don't skip the the right term. I I will say that I of course, I expected aid to perform Better against the P T C um during during the kind of cycle because of the Better stuff like emerge reducing issues by ninety percent, the burn stuff like that. But I think i've i've learned that may be the hard way that liquidity cycles matter a lot more for these assets than individual kind of, I guess, like tech improvements and and a issue and stuff.

Because if you actually plug the eight BTC chart against the rights like the U. S. Right chart, it's not like a one to one mapping, but like that seems to follow. And and and that's like a liquidity chat, where essentially when the liquidity is getting out of the markets and going into like treasury's um people who still in the markets don't necessarily want to bet on like super risky stuff, so they're going to the safest asset.

Um but if you actually look at cypher more broadly, the only the assets that are performed like extremely well over like maybe the lost yeah is B C soul, of course and then mean coins. Now me coins have a market cap of a basically nothing like that. That's why they perform well.

You can't even compare those things to to to those three to be see and soul even or even even eighth, of course. But if you actually look at the broader market, yeah, people are beating on the defy tokens. They're actually doing well.

The l two tokens, stuff like that, like they are old blid completely. They're all down not only against eight, but against U. S.

day. At least most of them are. So I think the as much as people, maybe I won to meet this liquidity cycles, right? cycles. The fed cycle plays a huge pot in all of this. And if that's true, you could expect aid to APP form from here now that the right cycle is flipped in my going with cuts since ad of rises and monetary policy is easing.

So if if that is true, that holds true, that that thesis, then yet each should I perform B2C fro m her e? I know on bb coin who've had on he's very big on this, right? And not the anyone saying this.

He's been saying that for quite a while now, just looking at at the data and seeing what what picture that that that kind of paints. That's how I how I am not to say that fundamentals don't matter, that absolutely do. If they didn't matter, them IT ouldn't be worth through around two billion dollars and saw wouldn't have gone out from all the economic activity that it's been able to generate and all the growth at a tag.

But if you're looking longer term out and you looking at these assets versus each other, not the U. S. A market cup, I think IT comes more down to liquidity cycles than anything else.

I think at this point in the market, you got a lot of bulls sharing either on and certainly like a lot of core beliefs that are still holding either right. Like I don't know who cells at this point. I mean, we probably have a ganging.

And the thing is, is that like at the market cub size that eth is, it's all about a where is the next marginal dollar come from to move the Price like a regular retail user buying a few thousand dollars worth of eight is doing nothing to the Price of the even like a lot of those investors probably not moving at that much because it's such a big assets.

I would b tc, mind you, and maybe even souls getting to that now because IT has such a large market. So then B, T, C has been able to get the marginal bia, the etf who are buying lots of A T C, obviously. And that's that's people that regular people as well.

But there's also massive kind of funds and wall street and stuff like that. So until eighth has that, which I think IT will in in, in the future. But I think a lot of people are basically making the the kind of Better like, okay, well, until IT has that is gonna ggt to to kind of move up because IT needs that marginal big money buyer to move its Price.

But if you don't believe that's coming, then yeah you can be barish eh. Like if you don't believe that time I do believe it's coming. I I I I really do and I I think people are underestimating IT. Um but again, I don't know official I am speculating.

I'm not gonna you with one hundred percent certain ty, but yeah I think at this point intime ah we definitely need like at that market cap, we we need that, that bigger money margin bia to decisively move move etha. But I think is part of the regular market cycles as well with a flight of new kind of money coming in from like great time as as that can still move eight up. But if you want eighth at like ten, fifteen, twenty k IT needs to be the big money as well at the world state etf money IT can't just be that regular retail.

But because I would say that we had to eat B2C wou ld pro bably be wor th lik e thi rty for ty k m ay be not eve n tha t bec ause of the fac t tha t lik e thi s jus t it' s jus t so lar ge the mar ket cap, there is not enough liquidity, especially during the the tipping cycle. There was not enough liquidity buying BTC because that was all in treasuries like this. Like why would I buy BTC when I can just be in treasuries and this massive yield, relatively massive yield. So yeah I think from that perspective, uh yeah, i'm bolli's ed going forward on on on eth getting that money.

they go bank antin is still bullish. Eat, Anthony. Thank you much joining us today. Thank you for having I hope people .

learn something new always my goal when I come on here, I know i've been on a few times and maybe i'm considered a bit of but of a boa these days because I ve been very long. Ger, actually on this there's an account on twitter, his names bread um he puts out really great analysis about the yeah and he recently said that he's coming around to the fact that eth needs to be money.

And I I courtway ed this tree with a meme that name of that like, a good looking guy in the office girl ate this money. And then may saying IT like, is in the gilpin. Like, hello, hey, job. So it's kind of that thing of, like the theory maker system obviously wants a new blood coming in and then read the same measures that we repeating will heat differently. So yeah, as I said, even if people consider me and eighty money boa, I don't really care as long as new people, I can't believe IT and and we are getting that message out there.

That's the time agreed. Sometimes it's the source. Some people don't believe til Larry think either is money but exactly and eventually and .

then banks we like, guys, this is what we talked.

Yeah, yeah. Well.

get you guys but Larry like, he's not Larry said, I like, he's black rogin come on, right? yeah.

Well, here you go. None of this has been financial advice. Of course, you guys know a cyp t to as risky.

You could lose what you put in. But we have had at west. This is the frontier. It's not for .

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