The Department of Justice V Google Ads: Part 3
42:14 Share

The all electronic chevy equal X E V combines everything you need when you're ready to go E V, starting at thirty four nine ninety five. That twenty twenty five equal X E V L T gives you an impressive baLance of all electric range safety features for piece of and effort list technology, including the seventeen point seven eight diagonal display screen, all at a Price you love. The shape equal xiv found to drive all electric S U V. That gives you what you need to exactly manufacturing tax license to open tiler set final Price to learn more, visit chevy dog comes flash equal the best .

vacation stories happen when everything feels effortless. As america's favorite vacation company for fifty five years, booking with appliance is like turning on easy mode. You can find the best deals all on one side and enjoy added per.

So all that love to do is let the stories unfold, turn on the easy mode, and start your story today with apple vacations. Visit apple vacations stop com, or call your local travel advisor. The holidays are here, and so is the ik o winter sale.

Now your chance to make the holidays a little more magical and less expensive, save up to fifty percent off on select items in door and online. Now through january seven plus I kill loyalty members, get an extra ten percent off on sale offer valid in the U. S. Through one seven multiples. Last selection may vary by store, online, sea store and I K A D, U S, A dog ssh winter sale for complete terms.

restrictions apply. Dear toyota, I need a word with you about your crown family. I started driving one, and suddenly I love traffic. No, really rush hour is my happy place.

Intentional wrong turns feels so right. I could sit the comfort of my Brown forever, basking in its elegance, feeling on top of the worlds. But you see how this is strange for me, right? Who gets excited about traffic? This is on you, toyota, and send the captivating .

toyota crown family. Toyota, let's go places.

Did you know your life insurance is an asset you can sell? M. J. Jack and CEO of advocates life. For almost twenty years, advocates has been purchasing life insurance policies from seniors, just like you and IT advocates ys that com.

We've created a free policy value calculator so you can find out the worth of your policy in just second, there are no fees and no obligations. Get real value for your life insurance when you need IT with advocate, learn more to advocates. Pace that com.

Cousin media. Hallow and welcome to Better off line on your host, ted zita on.

Once again, we are here to talk about the department of justice's case against google ads today. Of course, i'm joined by Jason kin, the sea of dc n. We've got a special guest as well, ario Garcia, a director of intelligence, ad transparency, non profit check my ads, arial. Jason, thank you so much for joining me.

Thanks to have enough.

Like, right.

So I I wdiely tell me a little bit about the end of the department of justice. Is case anything fun, interesting or scandalise happened .

in the last week? Yeah, I will say IT was definitely a markedly uh, slower week than IT was last week. A lot of the testimony that we heard was a simply for the purpose of getting exhibits into evidence, but there were a couple of things that stood out. Uh, we started the week with neal mohan and the the big revelation .

there and who is just to well.

he is now CEO of youtube but he came over with the double luck acquisition ah and so what one of the big focus areas of his testimony was about the ad melt yield manager acquisition and we saw internal decks where they were discussing whether or not to purchase and a yield manager and what does that .

mean as well? Uh.

so IT basically helped publishers optimize eel. Jason, you can probably add more color to this than I can.

I had IT. That's okay.

Now there is one important point. There is two kind of component functionalities that add melt had. One was the the yield management functionality and the other was a real time beating, right?

And just a week. A yield management is managing the amount of money .

you make from your ads. Yes, I like that. I'm not on the publisher side, so I don't know.

I've never worked in one, but I can I can certainly talk google ads, but I anyway um what google did when IT ultimately did by ad melt was killed the real time biting bit. But we'll get to that. So we see a deck where they're debating whether yellow manager would be a good investment to make. And IT says in the deck that their tech is irrelevant to google um and then we see that they paid. I don't remember the exact number, but I think IT was like a hundred uh million over the valuation. Um and before that, we see an internal exchange where neil says something to the effect of what we can just buy IT in parcels where so they were upset that um that the yellow managers were starting to gain traction IT IT ran the risk of intermediate uh D F P and obviously that would uh cause us to revenue through attacks which was very.

very possible for them. So just break IT down in simple terms or a simple and talk about myself here. So by killing off this product, this yield management company, IT, means that they would stop people being able to optimize how much they make. What are the .

ramifications of doing this? I'll remember that IT came with the real time bidding functionality as well. So what this was really about was two things. IT was to again protect their addict revenue but also to make sure that dfs, that double click for publisher stays critical. Um and so what they did was they they took IT in they built in some of the core yield management functionality into df p. They integrated that but they got rid of real time beating so that they can um keep you know restricting and met and setting the rules for the auction on on their side.

Also, they deliberately killed the useful product that they owned as a means of as a means of making the product worse, so that they would .

make more money. And they didn't kill that. They parked IT. And we had neil try to explain the park and really mean what we all thought I meant and to do to Operate status quote.

Now that classic word park that I use to refer to Operating something and using IT, that's why it's called the car park.

Can you drive on IT?

exactly. We hear something very similar while we're on that topic. The other one of the other spicy things that happened was we heard from john athan bela yesterday. He's another long time uh now x google employee that came over with the double click acquisition and with him they were talking about um exchange bidding which was basically the product that google launched to kill heder biting and um we see an email about how their goal is to make exchange bitting slightly Better than header bitting.

So the deal is the open south at work k approach .

that's correct. Um so well not add network but like the had orbiting rappid allows them to bid without like google getting first look at IT enable to fair auction.

right? Google never.

So what we see is that their goal was to roll out a uh, exchange bidding. So that is slightly Better than herbin ding. The D O J asks, uh, well, why slightly Better? And he explains the context as his goal was for his team to roll out product that is as much Better than had her bidding as possible.

But the direction from leadership was to scale back to only slightly Better. And the doj asked him why that is as IT was IT, because they wanted to protect adexe revenue. And he said something to the effective um you're going to have to ask leadership about that. So that was another interesting one right about how they like intentionally oh and by this point, they also mentioned that header biting innovation had continued and so by by this point, exchange beating would be inferior, right? So that was certainly interesting and also told like a bit of a more nuance story about the fact that even if the product organization wanted to do right by their publisher customers, they were strong by leadership.

That's very good. I think that's what we we say. IT does feel like this. I don't think there's any open in short case, anything like this, but IT does feel like google is aggregation. Sly taken the piece in a lot of this, in a lot of these scenario that feels like there's been a lot of testimony and discovery that is just them saying, what if we made IT so that no one else could do this and we would make more money than them through but not place that like IT feels almost two on the nose?

Yeah no, that's fair. And then i'll save my last one big highlight that is one that not too many other people are are talking about. So i'm making sure to talk about IT all the time. Um so during brian o cales deposition tape he was he used to be C E O up nexus.

Now he is CEO of scope three um during the end of his deposition tape he talks about how prebend, which is the open source thing that we were king about before kind of private, was brought to ib tech lab that typically will govern up like open source standards and stuff like that. They wanted tech lab to take over the governance of the previous standard and I B tech lab rejected IT. why? Because google via mentally objected. Obviously they were worried about um the the thread IT posed to them and so that's why pre bid became an own separate non profit. So uh we also brian flags that google at the time at least was uh the biggest financial contributor to iab.

And what is I A B just for the listener .

interactive advertising bureau, tech lab is a separate entity. To be clear, there is some um overlapping governance, but I I just still I know that there will be a barge of people that say they're separate. So I I am acknowledging they are separate entities, but there is overlap in.

And um the I A B tech lab has a lot of standards like they have the open R T B standard. I B itself has its own um standard for frameworks that IT overseas. But in terms .

of like the technical standards s that that special .

yeah as .

I tech it's said, I mean this one I just to jump and I am this one I to be fair, I I was not in the quarter room when they read this one in when they show that position. So I saw the news report on IT and a exchange I think um but you know this is the situation where at nexis, the largest independent ad tech company out there, besides google at the time, you know have this open source code that they developed with other players to open up the options and create a fair environment against google. And what is the report is and what brian OK C O specified on growth is that, yeah that they have this, and I wanted donate IT to the industry, right?

So you ve got this industry association that supposed to be for the veteran of the entire industry and one company's interest weight in heavier than the rest of the entire industry, which is you a very clear symptom of the problem we're talking through in all these lawsuits, right? Is that, that one company's interest out with everybody else and they just continue the game more, more market you. So it's very that's very concerning. I didn't get light good light on I V. So Frankly, so IT feels like .

we are at this point in the ads industry where things are if google is broken up in the way they're suggesting, it's gona have more ramifications than just for google. IT feels like there are organisational shifts that will have to happen as a result, like those who have aligned with them at last.

That's right. And they get in a moments like this because we are gaining this moment, Frankly, between the search opinion and now this trial, where IT seems to be headed sometimes hard to think through what this means in the catering damage, and people worry about the negative, but there also creates a lot of opportunity, right? And so IT unlocks and create actuate for everybody. And that's that's that's the fun part.

If we had anything more about ji blue, ji blue, the facebook google deal, the is a big deal or isn't a big deal, depending on who you ask.

I'd looked the texas and q one in next year.

Yeah is that is that where the suits happen.

where the state g suit? Is that where they were able to depose to north shi and and they're able to depose the facebook witness? It's come up in a few different ways and it's it's IT continues even today where, you know they are trying to bring facebook in as a competitor in this relevant market that this suits all about.

And you started to it's the threat of facebook coming into the market, but the rest of that story is that facebook didn't really come into the market because they had a sweet heart deal with google. Do not come into the market, right? And so we're not toling the rest of the story right now.

And I think it's because the just department maybe doesn't need to tell whole story. They already have enough. But but I know if you have a different .

really real now I I think that's right. I mean, you're exactly right that IT came up. Like once, but I also agree, uh that's part of the contortion that they're doing.

The in the other part of the contortion is still like the market definition contraction like just just today at the very and um they were they were going we started to hear from uh a microsoft employee benezar and I think he was is is IT benj hn that he was and um they were talking about alexzander had helped microsoft gain a foot hold in attack. But if you actually read the documents google was pointing us to IT was talking about how zaandam invested in video. So we're still ignoring we're still ignoring the display market and they're like systematic control of IT. They're just kind of pointing to all of the other areas that that that they haven't yet taken completely over just yet.

This is an atti secret with you hear, because of our job, we need to be connected, tony over connects by more than us.

but it's important .

like .

connection with your friends, your family every enriches your life. And that gives you something that provides and high speed internet, just in the context of this show, is so important. We will be talking about something here.

And it's easy to forget when you have IT in, big parts of the country still don't have high speed internet.

So A T N T knows this. They're ware of IT at A T T, and they're making a huge effort to change that. What they are doing is on trying to cover thirty million plus locations currently who don't have IT to get IT with fiber by the end of twenty twenty five.

Millions of people obviously will benefit families, businesses, schools, hospitals. There is a place called old county in kentucky, where they're now providing high speed internet to more than twenty thousand customers. A T N T join a lot of great things.

Connecting changes everything.

A T N T, even if you think it's a bit overhype, A I is suddenly everywhere, from sell driving cars to molecular medicine to business efficiency. If it's not in your industry yet, IT is coming fast, but AI needs a lot of speed and computing power. So how do you compete without cost spiralling out of control? Time to upgrade to the next generation of the cloud oracle cloud infrastructure, or O C I.

O C I is a blazing fast and secure platform for your infrastructure, database and application development, plus all your A, I and machine learning workloads. O C I costs fifty percent less for computer and the eighty percent less for networking. So you're saving up higher of money.

Thousands of businesses have already upgraded to O, C, I, including M, G, M resorts, specialized bikes and firework ai. Right now, oracle is offering to cut your current cloud bill in a half of you move to O C I for new us customers with minimum financial commitment offers. December thirty first, twenty twenty four. See if you are company qualifies for this special offer at oracle dot com slash strategic. That's oracle dot com slash strategy.

The all electric chevy equinox E V combines everything you need when you're ready to go E V, starting at thirty four nine ninety five.

The twenty twenty five equal X E V L T gives you an impressive baLance of all electric and safety features for piece of my effort list technology, including the seventeen point seven diageo al display screen, all at a Price you love to have equal xiv found to drive all electric S U V that gives you what you need to do exactly. Manufacture Price excludes tax title license deal. These are optional. Equip tea set final Price. To learn more, visit chevy dog comes flash equal X, E V.

The best vacation stories happen when everything feels effortless, less as america's favorite vacation company for fifty five years. Book with apple vacations is like turning on easy mode. You can find the deals one site and enjoy added perks.

So all that love to do is let the stories unfold, turn on easy mode and start your story today with apple vacations. Visit apple va. Stop, come or call your local travel advisor.

Did you know your life insurance is an asset you can sell? I'm j. Jack and CEO of advocates life for almost twenty years, advocates has been purchasing life insurance policies from seniors just like you, and IT advocates pays that com.

We've created a free policy value calculator so you can find out the worth of your policy in just seconds. There are no fees and no obligations. Get real value for your life insurance. When you need IT with advocates, learn more at advocates. Pays 点 com。

Well, that kind of leads us to the next part. So IT sounds like to that we're recording a 4 at temple。 Twenty of my iphone is still not arrived, so google is now on the stand. So walk me through IT.

J sure. So they bring up their their first witness, who we don't know a lot about because he seemed to have dispute of the internet um but he's spent there for nearly two decades and he's one a few people who didn't didn't leave when the lawsuit was filed and most of the the google LED defense, the google tourneys were focused on, I think two things.

One was having him draw out on a visual the entire ad tech supply chain and all of google components of IT, which you know at first seem seem like a good strategy to to kind of confuse the room in the judge. But I think at the end of day, IT was more annoying and IT actually IT just showed that they're all over the entire marketplace, right? And and so IT was a lot of smoking.

mears. And then the other piece was to try to bring in this element of all these different products, serve other types of advertising, be at video, be at um at advertising, be it's um native advertising and stream. And so all these different things that are not actually part of this case to try to make advertising a larger marketing really is to make google look less of a major player, right? So if you can actually bring in facebook in tiktok, or you can bring in netflix advertising for video, then suddenly google is not such a big player.

Alright, but IT IT didn't IT didn't work. And when the just department followed up, they actually just pulled up an email from this witness where he actually went through and talked about their business in those exact ways. And IT really negated everything he had testified. And and there a couple kind of elements of the judge are so seeming to get a little bit annoying and can read a mobile. And so but yes.

yeah yeah he also doesn't seem like their defenses any good. It's really it's just very weird because the search trial, they were all pissing vinegar. They were like, ready to rumble this one they are coming and they like, well.

look, is what you both .

witness who you will see his emails literally what we're going to claim he isn't saying and it's just IT like they just see almost discomposed .

later yeah IT IT IT felt this is the first witness, right? And they need to start strong yes yeah IT was not IT wasn't strong. And then I mean, towards the animal, kind of get the highlights.

The two things happen when this is when google's a turney was up. But he want to bring up some more recent things, right? Like the trade desk, one of the companies they compete with their earnings from last month. He wanted to give up something from the earnings last month, which is a year after discovery IT closed .

like this is and yeah that's like you like it's not exhibit's .

not exhibit's never been now asked about IT wasn't part the deposition. It's literally from a month ago um and they want to bring up a deal that they had done with twitter from the last few months, right? And so the government is like, you know, this stuff is not it's too early.

He said something like plus it's tainted. Like once all the law you started being filed, like all this stuff is tainted, you're giving me and so that was interesting. And then he said, and you're also talking about this entire ad tech ecosystem and that feels more like something for remedies rather than liability. So SHE was saying, like, let's talk about this when we started to break you up or yeah.

what you shing you, we will come back to this.

Welcome back. This would be so everybody in the court room. I looked at each other and made their notes. But I know at the same time, I don't know that definitely leading in care where she's going, but I got our attention. So I have .

you have you seen anything solid from google? Like have they had any win so far?

No, like IT IT sounds like IT sounds like I am saying that because I want to believe IT. No, no, I truly don't think .

you like that. Like, I wouldn't bring anyone who was like, I may want them to lose, but I want them to lose properly.

Yeah, no, scarey. They do not have a strong argument. The fact that their their first witness landed with the judge as though they were trying to basically say, well, wouldn't IT be like super complicated to blow us up if that's your best argument, like, you know and then the fact that that that, again, first witness and IT felt a little bit like they were resorting to tricks and bringing in documents that weren't part of discovery and having to been asked about IT is not IT just wasn't IT was not a strong way to start a they also their their add text spaetzle oot ball situation the D O J went .

up there in their.

can you explain what that is?

OK the judge description so so we are make humor so so they bring up .

a gray and oval on on the screen like wall shaped oval and then they asked him to start mapping out the ecosystem um and he puts they put a techno system at the top. They put like byline on the right, uh cell IDE on the left and then he starts populating IT with with google products first and it's all google products.

So it's like, okay, like let's start with search and oh and no and then like like they go add sense for content, add sense for search. They go in order and explain the history of why they're absolutely everywhere. And then like there's so now by this point, and they might they draw lines connecting everything.

So at this point is a mangled mess of google logos and unnamed the legged. Competitors like so I was yeah was like a big bow of ad text beetling where google is the the meat bolls absolutely everywhere. And some competitor flex are in their seasoning IT IT. And then the D O J gets up and they're like, first of all, we need to preserve this because we're going .

to come back to IT. So they thank you for this, by the way.

the D O J gets up and there like, okay, so if if if I am a publisher, if I am mall story journal and I want to sell ad inventory on my website and not and I not on my APP right um we'll surge. Help me do that. The center search helps me do that.

They go down the list one by one, removing the things that do not help them monitise, display ad space on their website。 And we get to basically exactly where the D O J S. Complaint started.

With the exception of because he was on the cell side, they didn't touch the dsp like they left the three or or they got exhausted with with this. But but we got to exactly why, like to me, IT actually would this was the best way to explain into the judge why they're complained, outline the markets that I did. So in my view, IT kind of completely .

a horribly .

backfires. Publish.

any fool.

I should say food was a theme today because even with the the first witness this morning, who was the expert, the last expert for the dog doctor.

Robin est, yes.

And google was really trying to confuse the judging of fuse heming. He he was really sharp and did not for a lot of things that they try to get to bite on but that on sorry, but but google uh, turning was bringing up trying to bring up product differentiation. I think and I think was at the time was trying to explain why they charged twenty percent for their rates change for the last decade while everyone else charges a lower rate and why they could justify this higher Price. And IT wasn't just because of monopoly mainland but um and he was talking about differences higher value from lower value I think so he brought up well first brought up I think chips and gasoline gas stations but then he brought up the walter versus the the big mac and then he would have coke for types y. The judge at some point erupted and say, you must be really hungry this mornings.

You don't need the judge saying stuff like that.

I think SHE was amusing. I go. He was trying to bring fun to attack after ten days of watching google get tortured.

So he also did chicken to bananas version. And i'm like, nice.

well, at least today .

and set of comparing apples to oranges. They're going to do bananas to bananas. It's process.

So what is google's argument? What is the actual they lost .

on market definition? And they've lost they've lost on confusing the judge. I think um I think they're down to the maybe the two it's this M X case of two sides in market version. It's one market the whole thing versus individual markets. But I don't never what I talk to doesn't think they have prayer.

They are can you woke me through IT despite .

its flazeet? Well, one i'm not an expert on the M X supreme court case, but if you think about a credit card transaction where on both sides that happens all at once, then there is a case that went spring core. I think that was a ohio verses.

I'm not pass, I think hio IMAX. I'm now outside my boundary. But but this idea that is a single market and both parties are transacting together at the same moment verses.

This is a market clearly a bice's, clearly a self side. There's different actors on both sides. And there are companies that you know a couple companies that participant multiple places, just they can't really compete. So it's it's very different than a single credit or .

transaction also. Not not i'm pretty stupid. But something obvious here seems to be that doesn't google bid at the beginning in the end of the auction, and that really isn't one thing happening in an instant.

Several things, multiple places where IT comes together than into a there's and there's bunch different things, right? Is Prices know when you buy from maxi a single transaction, you don't have an action. Lots of different things here, I think just all part selves.

And they also try to make IT sound like, like, like inherently. In order to serve one side, you have to also serve the other side. That is simply not the case.

Like, yes, there are a few companies that I have ever had a before they got driven out of the market, A, D, S, P and S, S P in an ad surber, right? But there are also stand alone dsp. There are stand alone add servers, handful of them left, right, their sand alone exchanges.

So IT kind of falls apart in that way as well. But I agree that that is the only art. I think unfortunately for them, they've put all of their eggs in that basket. The other arguments that they're making about um procompetitive rationales are just very flimsy. I I what .

are I mean.

it's so I made buzz d bingo this week. I made bingo Carter. I passed them out to the press box and but it's it's out every day.

We hear what they're trying to convince um the court that the fees for their products and the their growth is justified by the Better quality of their products. So they talk a big game about inventory quality and inventory creation via adults that they went. They that the advertisers that are allowed to advertisers, there they the are publishers that are allowed to monodist. And I like IT just has no this in reality, they talk that argument .

really good. If you don't use the internet.

they talk about spam, malware, ad fraud, brain safety. So they're trying to hold out their products like the pinacle of these things. The interesting thing is from the economist perspective, um quality is the way that they described that Robin lead described qualities for publishers that would be yield revenue money like that, that would be quality and for advertisers that would be R Y.

So it's a lot of like chickens talking at ducks and using words to describe different, different things. The other thing I would say that they're doing is they jump from perspective to perspective depending on what is convenient, right? So if something is harming publishers, they'll talk about how IT benefit advertisers.

But the question here is about, uh, is about the impact of publishers. They they do that all day, right? So that's the other kind of little bit of a game that they're playing. They're trying to show that where something was bad for publishers IT was good for someone else and I think that the D O J is in good job of of also deconstructing that um through through largely through their expert uh witness testimonies .

yeah the one of they had on the procompetitive because I had felt like I got a taste of at the end of today is and there was the google the first witness they were talking about the mission of google to fund the information of the world and know the way that probably will go and I saw this with a search trial, and I ve saw the upstart trial. The google, remember, they lost both those, but they try to make an argument that all of this conduct and all of this wealth that were creating through this android Operating system and through this add marketplace that we create actually helps fn this entire equal system, right? So if you can argue that all of the way that they're running their conduct to create a bigger ad market actually ends up driving more revenue through the publishers and that they would argue that, that's procompetitive even though they're taking more and more of the money over time and and they're the one that's worth again through the dead thing we talked about last publish.

that kind of very severely undermines .

the argument.

The all electric chevy equal X E V combines everything you need when you're ready to go E V, starting at thirty four nine ninety five. That twenty twenty five equal X E V L T gives you an impressive baLance of all electric range safety features for piece of mind and effortless technology, including the seventeen point seven eight diagonal display screen, all at a love. The shaver equal xv is the fun to drive all electric S U V.

That gives you what you need to do, exactly what you want. Manufacturing suggested reil equal. X, E, V, say goodbye to winter .

blues and hello to Sunny views this holiday season. Apple vacations is making IT easier than ever to escape to the destination you've been dreaming of, whether is a White sense of the and clear waters of mexico or the beauty of aai. We've got you covered.

Book now and enjoy up to forty percent off at the hottest resorts. But don't wait, these deals won't last long. Head over the apple vacation stock com or call your local travell agent today. Your bags paradise is calling and it's waiting for you.

Did you know your life insurance is an asset you can sell? M. J. Jax and CEO of advocates life for almost twenty years, advocates has been purchased in life insurance policies from seniors just like you and IT advocates pays that com.

We've created a free policy value calculator so you can find out the worth of your policy in just second, there are no fees and no obligations. Get real value for your life insurance when you needed with advocates. Learn more.

Advocates pays that com.

This is IT your moment. This is your time to make your comeback with produce global. What you come back with a predicted bal degree.

You create opportunity for yourself, your family and your future. It's a degree you can be proud of, a degree that employers will trust and respect for. Due global offers, working adults like you over one hundred seventy five flexible degree programs to meet your specific career goals.

These include associate, bachelor's, masters and doctoral degrees and certificate for due global degree programs range from nursing to business to communication and more. Whatever your and we have the degree that will move you d you have the knowledge, you have the experience. Now it's time to get credit for the work you've done and aren't the recognition you deserve with for do global produce online university for working adults.

You know, you're working. We do too. So don't wait another second to get the degree that will take your career to the next level, start your come back today and produce global. That E. D. U.

Has TV gotten really .

complicated lately near their endlessly searching for your favorite chose or subscribing to a dozen different streaming services. You don't even save as much money when compared to the cost of old cable bills. Thankfully, filo has changed all of that one service of the stuff you need.

Vio s got current seasons of the shows you can't miss live on networks like paramount, M T V, discovery and tilsa classics like the office, Martin and friends. So you can never get sick of all of the incredible originals on A M C plus from mad men to or and black. Don't forget the library of more than seventy five thousand movies and shows, all of which you can save.

And we watch any time for a whole year. Never miss a minute like yellow stone love after lock up and friends. Best of all, with filo, you get all this for just one eight dollars a month, no contracts, no hassles, just one subscription and a world of entertainment to go to final dot T V and check that out for a free 7 day trial。 That's P H I L O dot T V to start watching.

Jason, you're at the search trial. He said yes. How is google felt different between them? Is that the same attention is different atterley is their their argument .

sounds much weaker at the very least toa different set of attorneys um and I would say that this case is more complete located.

So there's a bigger opportunity to try to confuse things where the search case really came down to you know with the judge understand and when they ve got to prove the network effects and the importance of scale with da no is a buying out the exclusive search lot, is that truly exclusive? Or is that just a preference? Is that so like there is this definition exclusive conduct anyway? So that one was more, I think that matter, if you had to play IT out and you got to see some of the bad conduct.

But I was ultimately going to be based on some legal else where this one, you know the the actual story times really, really important on both sides. And know, to be fair, we're only a half a day into google's defense, but IT looks like the the just departments go up Better material. So there .

there is one thing I was reminded of, as you were talking, that I actually curious to get your take on walter here. I I I think if there were one argument that seems to be landing somewhat with the judge um IT, is this idea that in order to they're being asked to provide access to their customers or they are being they are being asked to allow things that would require them to build new for their tools. I don't understand how that would land.

Even even even if we buy that, they would have to build these things like how many millions do they make in a minute? So I don't I don't really understand. I just I say that because I know um I think today the judge did ask a the expert witness that or SHE allowed a line of questioning to continue that seem to indicate the this is an area that he is thinking about um so I was curious .

about your take I mean I rise asked me to explain another court decision. I think that that's trying to get at the other defense that google I try to lay out there walking in, which is this twinkle case that basically the refusal to deal a duty to deal and does does does the company have to actually enable its rivals or provide aps or allow its rivals to use its products. But that's not really central to the case. And it's really a matter they tied their markets together and forced the customer basis to use them. And so but I think that's the line of of defense to try go out.

Also been discovery throughout this case where people just talk about addix sucking, that being a shady product that sucks IT all .

as much and it's not as good because yeah mean, that is the definition of an out right.

Yeah IT really feels like we're watching an empire crumble. It's so strange because you look at these companies for years, as these kind of immovable bests tightens, that will never be broken. But when they are in front of the department of justice, like, I don't know, man, like it's actually good.

We do this. Like, look my look at my annoying drawing. I did.

Like, what do you think? Like it's just straight. Like how IT was always this lim's .

y really actually to watch them have to draw IT out in that spakest I football on the screen and not be able to use any other fancy video and storytelling beyond, you know, that a tourney at the electron and a single visual on the wall and and you know, everyone in the courtroom, ching google past, posted notes back and forth from its attorneys to its comes people to run out the door and try to tell their story outside the court room because there's no tvs or, you know.

audio. That was one thing that you tweet IT out. I'd love to talk about, though, some of the three brief s that google had been doing around google ads.

I would love to talk about that primarily. Think of the show, casey newton, who had the google google lawyers hand up his asho, not literally, but he was doing venture, the question. So there is a story towards the end of october twenty twenty, I believe, where casey you on platformer, I apologized to getting anyone's hand, and there anyone's unmentionable. There is not true, however, casey clearly heap and as per of the discovery which willink in the episode notes Jason you posted this is they briefed a bunch of journalists and including casey newton then casey newton and put out this piece was like, yeah, this one I think the google, uh the google's argument against D O J, so it's actually good 不是 yes yes.

I went and chase that bad.

But tell me a little bit .

about .

these these briefs because so I don't .

want to call any individual because that's yeah so you know what we saw what we saw was when the the just department filed its search complaint again, which is the one they just won in August. So I like I tried to remind ever about that when I when I share that thread is this is a complaint that was filed and then they lost you have lost this, right? It's a winning complaint that just by IT.

And what we saw was google systematic reaction to when that complaint was filed, and all the people that they breathe, the friends of theirs that went on air on television to defend them, the editorial boards that they pitch, that wrote pieces. And most those pieces were all, here's why the just department has filed a lousy case. Here's why google is going to win.

Here's why people don't understand how born google is to our world. And IT turns out all those people are wrong. And you know and when you're writing in a piece like that with a hot take the day the complaints filed and I guarantee most of have never read the complaints and never all the the discovery that then came afterward, you, you, you're you're bound to be wrong if you're just listening to google and so um yeah yeah finishing .

and I will just not not put any words in anyone's 58 october this piece is quite long at says about fifty hundred two thousand words and he talks about where the where the D O J S cases weak for quite some time but then at the answer he spoke with a spokesperson but he is word for word， basically what they wanted him to say it's just shame it's such shameful not talking specifically about casey anymore so that you guys can say something um IT just sucks because look, this case is, as we are finding over these episodes deep and weird to pull apart in the same as with search as well. And there's nothing wrong with showing both sides of IT. But at the same time, I feel like being briefed by google lawyer is not actually showing both sides.

I mean.

I think that's that's why that's why i'm so happy to be here throughout even though it's obviously massively rupture to my regularly scheduled .

believe cash.

But that's exactly why it's so important. Google has so many resources at their disposal. They have such a well oil spin machine, and it's very difficult to cut through the noise to give perspective on actual reality, right? So yes, I absolutely have my opinions, but it's been equally as important with this trial to give people resources to develop their own conclusions and to do their own analysis. So like we we've been pulling the exhibit into a way that's more organized to just try and empower people .

to u google ads don't come. We've been hydronic. Every episode is back in work.

But like, yes, so I I absolutely love weaving in my commentary and my updates, right? But the reality is a lot of the resources on that website are just to that their resources so that others have, uh, things look at that aren't coming just from google comes team.

And I and I think the problem with cases pace, I am going to a little bit because he deserves IT, is that I actually don't mind, even if someone agreed with google, if some was just like I actually think this case is weak, like nei patel who have my problems with. He said IT was a vacation. I don't know if I agree, but that came off as you.

I given an opinion, which is fine, yes, god, P R, whatever. But still this opinion, what casey did here was presented as if this was some sort of objective analysis. And I think that what frustrates ts me about a lot of this is you also, I don't believe objective analyst really exists.

I think everything subjective but also if you if you're gonna talk to google lawyer, talk to the department of justice lawyer, if you'll even talk to you and if they won't, don't talk to google's lawyer yeah because you are being influence and google has so much money. It's not like you are helping a pop star. It's not like you're helping your favorite author.

You're hoping a multi trillion dollar jug and ot, but controls chunks of the world's economy and knowledge. I like longer their reputation. It's just it's frustrating.

They also the thing we saw them celebrate the top of the summary, which is definitely a pea of mine. Everybody on twitter knows um and I feel like i've made a little bit of a time there is in google and facebook does this to puts a blog post APP that's blamed LED often is like news and then they put down basically a ress release and their whole goals to get people to share that right.

And so reporters as soon as they post, will then share that blog post and and google noted that half of the stories out there had links to their blog post, right, which is basically just doing their press for them. And so yeah yeah I mean, IT, but to be very and flip this around in the positive, it's where we can talk. The very end last episode is that, and I reflect on this today, I am saying there in the court room and i'm looking, and I got two four rows in front of me of google comes people, two four rows.

But over on the left there were also three rows of press, which we denied at the search case. There are in the room, bloomer, new york tips, you know, and like to set a, they're all sitting there, and they are here in the exact same thing as they have to be in the room, which kind interesting, you know, they can't be off walk in the hall. They have to be in the room where they can. I miss IT, and then I els back in the corner. Two just nail and everything down and like, so IT does feel like we've got actual ice ears in the room and gave the facts out there a Better way than search case.

And IT also feels like the ad I feel like the digital ad press been like off the honestly a few years where I was kind of worried they were going away. They've come back quite aggressively here. I don't think any I don't think it's anything if it's personal is just because google is been fucking around, they are finally finding out.

I don't think it's any particular agenda. But also, I do chAllenge you listeners if you think any of this is report is coming in with an agenda, look at the other side. Look at what the tech industry has done using the media and look at this.

We should be proud as members of the media, of the ad tech press and how they have gone about this, and how Ariel and Jason of ruining their weeks going to this courtroom. But it's great, because this is an empire, in my opinion, this opinion that needs to, for that IT needs to be there. Why do you and I, Normal people have to compete like regular people in these rich past that get to do more? It's just frustrating. I like seeing them, but i'm completely rejected. By the way, I do not pretend otherwise.

All good, all good. So yes, so google will have probably about a week left of defending itself, and then it'll be back to, you know, maybe some bottle, the stuff, but they will be to the judges.

So about week left.

I think, yeah, oh yeah. Well.

I think think we can call IT there a Jason. Where can people find you?

Hj, store kit. K I N T or you can always check out digit content next to work who I worked for um and .

all of our .

resources in our accounts there and arrive Ariel as scarcities or ad or USB google ad where .

genuinely USB google is so good. IT is one of the best, best things out there and you can read all of those wonderful emails when they just like, yeah, we love doing all these be a little bit dramatic that but thank you so much, everyone, for listening. I'm of course, at ittrying and yeah will have probably another at least one more episode on this and then we can wrap IT up.

Thank you so much. thank.

Thank you for listening to Better offline. The editor um composer of the Better of offline theme song is matter sales y.

You can check out more of his music and audio projects a meta sali dotcom M A T T O S O W S K I dot com, you can, you email me, are easy at betroth line 点 com or visit Better off line 点 com to find more podcast links。 And of course, my news letter, I also really recommend you go to chat that, whether your ad or at to visit the discord and go to ask slash Better role in check out or read IT. Thank you so much for listening.

Better offline is a production of cool zone media. For more from cool zone media, this is our website clues. When we get a dot com or check us out on the I had radio APP apple podcast or whatever, you get your podcast.

The best vacation stories happen when everything feels effortless. As america's favorite vacation company for fifty five years, booking with apple vacations is like turning on easy mode. You can find the best deals all on one side and enjoy added perks. So all that love to do is let the stories unfold, turn on easy mode and start your story today with apple vacations, visit apple va stt com or call your local travel advisor.

Did you know your life insurance is an asset you can sell? M J. Jackson, C E. O of advocates life for almost twenty years above has been purchasing life insurance policies from seniors just like you and IT advocates pays that com.

We've created a free policy value calculator so you can find out the worth of your policy in just second, there are no fees and no obligations. Get real value for your life insurance when you needed with advocates. Learn more at advocates, pays that con.

Wake up at holiday and express to a chemist breakfast that's free with every day. Count on all the hot, fresh coffee you need and an incredible breakfast buffet that has something for everyone like eggs, cinema roles and even hot, fresh pancakes with all the tops you crave. Next time yourself a favor instead a holiday in express with a can't miss breakfast that's free with every day.

So when you wake up at holiday and express, you wake up happy. A part of H. G. Hotels and resorts.

Once upon a time, amazon music made audio books, and listeners everywhere rejoiced, because now they could listen to one audio book title a month from an enormous library of popular audio book titles, including romantic acy, autobiography, true crime. And more suddenly, listeners didn't mind sitting in traffic or even missing their flight. Amazon music unlimited now includes auto download, the amazon music APP. Now how to start terms apply .

zero fox stra isn't just a brand, it's a way of life founded and Operated by veterans zero fox ros unique. A parallel gear echoes the grip of the war or culture the zero fox tra dedicates itself to producing content, honoring the sacrifices of forgotten heroes of the past and connecting history to the present. Embark on a journey was zero fox tra today at zero fox tra dot com. It's not merely our products about the ethos that we embody, rugged and resilient and timeless.