The Onion Knight Ft. Ben Collins
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Caul media hello and welcome to Better off line. I'm your host, ted itron.

On April twenty first twenty twenty four, G O media, the private equity project best known for running websites like dead spin into the ground, announced that he was selling the terrace news newspaper and website the onion to a company called global tetrahedron, though few knew IT at the time, global tehran was entity run by former abc news.

This information report of an Collins funded by billionaire jeff lawson, best known for founding tWilly o as a note global tetrahedron, a reference to the company of the same name from the onions anthology book, or dumb century, in one of the first bits of good news i've had to share on this show. The onion is now owned by somebody who has not only done a job in journalism, written things, research things, and worked in the news organization that didn't burn to the god downgrade. He also cares about the future of the newspaper, best known for headlines like study reveals babies as stupid, juris prudent fetishists get off on technicality and mark sucker g worried facebook listening to him after being pushed, shared that says, I just laid off ten thousand employees today. It's my immense pleasure to be joined by the onions new CEO ben Collins.

Okay, so how did this deal to buy the onion actually come together?

okay. So I was um I was january. I just quit my job right for Christmas and um I was running a book about like some of the biggest piece of shit on the planet earth, the even on mass in the gym journ the world. And I was like super depressed and I was like, I was flying through but IT wasn't, uh.

even fun. Yeah exactly.

I have no idea. I don't even over was good. I think IT probably was alright, but like the the process is sorber. And I read an ad week that the onion was aggressively for sale and I had known, I remembered that elon must get once tried to buy the union right. He wound up putting him about a staff.

And so the thinker third uh which never really launched he a from what i've heard from some law in the office by the way, is that um they after about a year he didn't think anything that these former onion writers wrote was funny and this was like a peaker of the onion. So he just shoot them away off campus, off the text campus where he had originally got them were the space x campus and into this like weird remote area. Um and then I just died a like a sad and he died the death of like a guy dying in the desert in the video game yeah just happen. Um so I was worried that he was gonna try to snap IT up or uh like the A I all the people who buy these like websites and turn them like weird zomba I farms I thought .

that was yes, that seems pretty likely.

Yeah and I really I really do know what that to happen. Like the onion was a very important part of my life. Grown up and run kind of remains that way. And like the last uh the last american news institution that has been completely unsolid, I would say.

um and also a rare good hit rate for decades, there's not really been a slump.

Yeah exactly. Um even in the last year when all these other new organza are really fun on the bag is like tripper over themselves. Uh, they weren't you know they were very clear about A I and gaza and all these other things that uh, people fell into like some really weird ritual traps for themselves that they are now having a hard time getting out of the onion didn't do that.

Like one of their headlands last year was guy who sucks at being a person, sees his huge potential. And AI, which is just fuck right, is really good. Yeah, so, yeah.

So I i'd read in ad week that I was very for sale, and I put on blue sky. I said, does anybody want to save the onion? I have like six hundred dollars or something. And my friend leila roman, who lives in chicago, was like the ones like a chicago institution. Like if this thing goes away, it's like a really bad thing.

Like, who do we call you to make sure somebody decent ends up with this thing? So I was like, I know me just makes me calls and i'll see what IT costs, I guess see what IT is, see what's going on with IT. And I just kept making phone cause I just keep going.

I just kept like being like, how would I like if we were buy this? Like how we make money? How do they make money now? Do they make money now? What's going on with this thing? right? And a couple of weeks later, we resisting the thick of IT, like eventually we had, we had collected enough people who knew a rich guy, and, you know, to to get in the equation. And then there was, there was this kind of jeff lawson who had just left tWilly o company. And he kind of felt the same way about that.

We did and we know we just kind of like constantly we're insurance each other that neither of us was going to mess this up, that we're all going to like leave the processes be at the onion that uh makes a great and um that just happened like I you know within and then eight weeks and went from like a hilarious joke in my house, like I was talking my girlfriend. I was like i'm not about the union ha and then like two weeks I was like, I think I would actually do this and this actually happened. And then in eight weeks was pretty much done like we were um that we were fighting off some last second bitters. We were particularly goolies. But like any any clarity on .

who those .

might be, they're in the news.

okay。

And yeah it's so perhaps a very direct .

question is so jeff lawson, he's a billionaire tulio, quite rich. How are you going to avoid what has happened with a lot of take investor projects because for the most part, they've been pretty good. But generally, when they start like jeff bezos has not really back the washington post, he doesn't seem to feed IT more money and the same kind like ben off buying time and mock any of CEO sales force. But time few years ago, and he again does not seem to have like he doesn't seem to have missed with IT, but he also doesn't think to have helped IT what's the plan .

with jeff lawson? Ah well we're gna do profiling to make sure the staff if he does well, they get money for us like and just straight up what that is um know he this says like a public interesting just we do that is an american institution and if he dies IT sucks like it's bad for anybody need we need somebody to just aggressively needle bad people and like this is not his money making enterprise security did that um but like our world is is to ah the goal the goal that is to make an environment where writers can make money for doing good writing like this. Just a weird idea we had .

yeah so with that in mind, what's the actual plan to make money? How does that make money now? And what's the plan for the future?

Okay, cool. I actually I tell you about this because it's like fits with how we talk about stuff you and I like my text about. Yeah, thing is important.

So the way the onion, uh, used to make money under geo media is basically one way programmatic advertising. So programmatic advertising ing is this horrible thing. Sort of eight the internet and sort of eight are politics in the world. Um it's all those like, you know those like one weird tly over the .

bottom of page yeah when people .

think of in certification, this is probably what they think about right right um and that's how they make money right now. And I I now on the other side of this, I get IT right. If you were you can run a business like this where is really low margins and you know you have a small staff. And on top of that, basically, you just keep running a websites where that if if you're updating IT a little bit, it'll remade in the top of google or whatever. And then you get enough of these impressions so that these horrible ads just keep you know showing up literally ten folks, sometimes like hundred fold underneath .

and they get paid by the impression .

rather than the click through. right? exactly. So I would like if every car that drove by a billboard um there there there you ve got paid for a rival, right?

Every every thousand cause right?

exactly. And then you pay even more. Obviously, if somebody clicks on that, the incentive structure is bad to become with, but then the incentive structure from the person selling the thing on your website even worse. So it's just like, uh, can I tell you my favorite program and advertising please? Larry bird wife ad one.

Larry bird wife ad, dot, come. Ah oh yes. I I know the one where i'll put a link to IT in the episode.

No OK, I do what I can. I read IT to you.

Please do please read IT to me.

IT is meet Larry birds propulsive life.

Which is not an onion headline, right? That's an actual programmatic click bay advertising.

And the art you is exactly what he says that is this them making fun of how this woman looks and she's not responsive Better way.

but it's just one of the most and that's an automatic is that I guess IT was before A I generation that came out. So there was a guy I was likely now who I am going to take the boots to today, birds, ugly wife. I am going to take IT down a few peggs.

It's the twenty eight.

twenty years in all this time. For the first busted was. Yes, but that's the thing when you get websites and you can even see IT on big ones like abc.

I have mentioned this before. These programmatic ads are everywhere like outbreak things. There's on CNN as well. So you will get like international news, international news, politics.

And in the thing about how you hearing age should be Better, and you can buy in from a special website, this full spyware. And it's just crazy. And this is most of the media. But what do you what are you going to do with the onion though?

Because yes, I want to say that design language of that sort of thing, that sort of this and um how how do they even physically look you see places like the new york times sort of copy that because people are used to that the design language of trump boxes, they are called trump boxes. yes. And IT just makes everything worse.

Our politics sort of sound like that. Now the way people talk sort of sound like meat. Larry birds or politicians ve like that.

Just sort of how things that's how he feels like american life, right? And I I can't be good, just can't be good. So how we're going to make money? Great question. Um in a diverse way that is not that like there. There is A A several part strategy that we have.

Um first of all, we're going to I don't want to blow or low here a little bit, but we're going to have a membership that maybe brings back the newspaper um yeah cool and very excited about IT. Um we're going to help direct ads. So like ads that want to like companies want to directly deal with us, we're going to do that.

We're gona be like a fifth party vender to some to scaring people on the internet. Um companies that want to deal this, we want to deal with them to and like, uh, that's nervous things. This is thing called um if we're going to write to my ad copy where we we are also aware that there is there has been a funny super commercial and like fucked in fifteen years like we do want to be in that business too. And so wait.

would you be making super vo commercials for .

other people? Well, we'll be making ads for other people. And right. And um and there's a several different ways. We can go to the video that were trying to fill out the very best one, but all those ways sort of you know they bring in cash and then there's there's just a lot of ways to do this, and we're going to do a little bit everything.

But like I would say, like the number one way you could do IT, it's like subscribe to us when we launch our member ship product, but we just want to be really good. So we want the staff to owit to be know and we want to hear more feedback. So what want in a membership from muslim newspaper? So we're just take our time with that.

This is an atti secret with you hear, because of our job, we need to be connected, tony over connects more than us, but it's important like connection with your friends, your family every enriches your life. And that gives you something that provides and high speed internet, just in the context of this show, is so important. We will be talking about something here.

And it's easy to forget when you have IT in, big parts of the country still don't have high speed internet.

So A T N T knows this. They're ware of IT at A T T, and they're making a huge effort to change that. What they are doing is on trying to cover thirty million plus locations currently who don't have IT to get IT with fiber by the end of twenty twenty five.

Millions of people obviously will benefit families, businesses, schools, hospitals. There is a place called autumn county in kentucky, where they're now providing high speed internet to more than twenty thousand customers. A, T, N, T, join a lot of great things.

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Welcome to decisions, decision. The podcast where boundaries are push and conversations get handed. Join your favorite host, me w and many as deep into the world of non traditional relationships and explore the O W topic surrounding dating sex.

And that's right. Every monday and wednesday we built invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriotic norms with a benda humor, vulnerability and authenticity. We share our personal journeys, navigating authorities, tackling the complexity of modern relationships and engage and thought provoking discussions that chAllenge societal expectations.

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So perhaps this is one you can't necessarily speak to yet, but how much time do you have? How has laws's been very clear? This will take time because that feels like the biggest failure of every digital failed digital media product that i've seen last few years.

Yet what I mean, he's patient with the idea that does take time to get a build out of thing that uh you can in what in six weeks or something, you can just like completely flip hand an entire business um and like we have to get out of contracts, we have to get out of whole thing, like there is a bunch of self we have to do to get out of that previous business that .

also you're actually unbuckling parts of the geo media.

the hydro. Yeah I mean, like you know, we're on the old world where there's just a lot of stuff that you have to do. We need to set up a whole no IT, set up a whole business with health insurance and all the other stuff that that that you would do any buy a business and uh, in a lot of IT, is unlearning stuff right or part of part of the previous business right?

If you are doing programmatic advertising as your primary business, you're doing slide shows all day, you are telling people your driving held a slide show and telling them to click the bottom over and over again to get a new freshly set by freshly created set of ads. And we have to get this you know it's tomorrow zing to the staff. Um we have to get them in in the mindset that like maybe the best joke is a technical video, maybe the best joke is um is a whole newspaper and means a physical object like how do we actually satirize our current times right now and not just you know the net from ten fifteen years ago.

Getting that mindset with the writers room is important. And until six weeks ago, they didn't they had no idea who is going to take over this place or if anybody who is going to take over that would keep them on board. So uh, I think we're you know part of this just winning their trust. And uh, we're well on her way .

as that's cool. And you mention kind of expanding the media site as it's weird over the years, the onion went from having probably some of the freshest media content to being mostly written. There was a time when you had, like I don't know any listeners who remember this, that I ve used.

So this, but get out of my face was one of the best comment products of the last decades sports show, much like around the horn, except both hosts just completely hated each other and most of the sport. But then I went away. IT felt at the only one very writing base, which is finds .

good stuff. But so you're going to expand that. Then as me, I just remember one .

work was just tim screaming about how pencil vania is a giant. It's a giant abandoned parking law and he couldn't wait to get home and shaved his entire body anyway. Multimedia now so you're going to start expanding into video, I hope again.

Yeah that's important us because two reasons for that. First of all, uh, the reason was IT became a tex heavy thing is because of the the business of programme advertising. No right. They were just feeding that beast straight up. So we do want to get out of that and do bigger things. Second, um we have accidentally developed uh this massive fan base among uh the kids because in last year, if you watch scene and or M S N B C, if you are in your times or something and you are twenty two years old, you are just getting fucked in the yard. That by old people was what was kind of .

yes IT was like your feelings .

aren't valid and literally get off my lawn that's what they were think right that was right. That's the last year of coverage and we weren't like that like we've um we've said first of all your feelings are valid. You also maybe right. And also um you know there are a lot of parallels to previous parts in history where um the onion also stood up when IT was unpopular.

For example, like during the iraq war, they they stood up all the time, you know they back peak dixi check here are they were they have the same political but they were thankfully unresolved but funnier they ve got away with IT um and that sort of mire a lot of the gaza stuff over the last year he where they they stood up early on. Um can I review your headline? Yes, the headline is the onion stands with israel because IT seems like you're getting less trouble for .

that cry is the most cutting media criticism rating?

yeah. And like Better way would transcoding age you fail .

ahead with guns as well? IT. Is journalism .

sacred duty to endure of the lives of as many trans people as possible? This was like in the middle, the new york times every day just being like trans kids don't deserve to be a life every single day would really do .

about and as an aside listeners, this is a pro trans podcast. If you are anti trans, delete this podcast. Go fuck yourself. Anyway, just moving on um no i'm .

in the yet obviously the man shooting stuff where um country that happens to yeah .

there's no way to .

prevent this says the only nation where this regular happens that is an iconic thing that we obviously reported every chAmber as a major man shooting which is the ever and uh like there is nobody else that does this and that's why we want of this now um it's because when all these other places sort of retreated back into um being really scared to the beach, the power there are also there like no fuck this we need to keep making jokes and we're going to keep um standing on side of people who are quite literally sometimes getting murdered for no .

reason right and it's it's interesting is you are tangibly not necessarily it's not even tell the truth. It's just you're not making any you're more making statements of comedic effect. But IT seems to be more bombed and fresh and focus criticism and actual journalism right now. Why do you think so many journalism are pulling their punches? I mean, everywhere take politics business is the access is is something else.

I think a lot cases just access or pleasing their bosses who really care about access. I think a lot of these places with the trump stuff, um they decided the bosses decided the number of priorities that you remain on the plane, that the the campaign will keep talking to you, that they will uh that uh you are not going to pitch them off enough, that we're not going to be black ball ever because they the the fifty fifty journalism is too important.

Um I think that's mostly IT and I I also think like I don't think they understand that. Um I I think so many times um these people think that they are the bastions of like purity and um equality and like one side is this and this is this can not be the what they're doing is actually really extraordinary, not a good way. It's extraordinary sense that um this didn't actually happens this way previously.

They have been asked. They've been captured in a political moments um where they they where one side is totally issued the concept of the truth um IT didn't use to work this way. People used to say that if he was raining outside, they used to say was raining outside. Now it's right at these networks uh, whether it's tech or its .

politics or anything related.

whether of them yeah exactly and also, you know one one side of the government insists that is not raining, right? And that's like that that is that's new like that's a new kind of reportage in the sense that is sucks previously that didn't happen. Don't let me retry others'.

Yeah and it's interesting. It's almost like one side right wing side is very aggressively just objective, just they don't give a shit that they can do do and say what they want and then you get towards the century. And I hate these terms because I feel like it's very hard to actually describe what's going on with them.

But the center left, but let's be honest, it's more center than anything they seem to perceive objectivity sorry, subjectivity or um that's object to the jesus crist that's where speak english as something that requires you to humor every argument that every position is actually fair. Also, I don't think objectivity exists and it's very bizarre to watch. This is something I fine with tech as well, very frustrating. But it's interesting that I think that the onion is actually doing some of the best journalism but through the most bizarre ath yeah there's .

like there's this kid on tiktok was like ninety thousand views and she's just like he said in a very gensec way you I said this is my whole chest like the onion has had Better uh h has had Better coverage over the last month on israel gaza than your attempts to washing post and like SHE rates to IT. And you couldn't you can't argue with IT like they just it's just the truth. I completely, I completely with you on this man.

Like there is like getting there. There is a kind of thing that's going on where a journalism is now insistent on you just getting punched ed in the face all day by fashion. yes. O, K, it's fine.

Don't they punch us?

Yeah exactly. It's it's very important to find out why they punched us while like the actual concept of what's going on complete. I was unlike you know name for a couple days ago.

Um there was this whole I was there were having this whole conversation that arranged so many different ways about disinformation and like a guy, a story a guy wrote in harper's about the concept of disinformation, how that is affected by jim Jordan, but is also affected by the fact that kai corret gave a speech about something was like, what the fucking talk? What is who gives IT a shit? Like, if you, the beauty of this place before the union is IT like you going to cut right through the middle that like, these people can be having this stupid as conversation on each side of IT and you can just agree, like note, just find on through and that that to me is that's valuable and um that that to me is good reportage that is just ignoring the fucking and noise and trying to get to the center of what's .

actually going on. Do you consider IT a comment outlet or a journalism out there?

I mean, it's boat. I mean the our brand batters is stupid jokes like our cause, like I think about a gilla .

mother making the gililland slouch. Yes, that's one of my favorite recent one.

You exactly like like yelling at her child for .

you to watch more.

I that's a matter like, for example, like I was I was reading a really old issue out out here, our entire art. And I was this planet to written there is a very serious iraq war issue where they were talking about shes time to leave whatever. Uh and IT was everything very heavy. But on the top left, the very first story you see on there, it's a the basic of this continues weed fix.

That's great. That's the thing there's you really get dislike people haven't a bit of fun with that anymore if feels like journalists and media in generals got so got damn serious, are you but but also serious in a way that doesn't seem to have the appropriate seriousness for like police brutality fashion. It's just serious about everything .

else that I think that's why um like the working like there are a substantial swap of the work and class in america. Listen to jeroboam in the fact that's very pnoc and like it's something on in the background is because even they think they're getting the news, which is wrong, right?

And do you think that but in between that is him like showing you know videos of gorilla and like people punching each other in the face and you know, there is like there is A A mild, like the line of joy that goes on there that cannot happen on the regular news that just doesn't ring IT doesn't happen. And like like there is there used to be some of that like the today show, if people still watch that and really no but but that's a very force fun like fake fun. Um you can you can see the um fund to fascism, like you can see the like the concept of making dictums fast.

Because if you do is just going win. It's just like they're just going to get every teenager in amErica even if even if they're sitting around. Like these ideas are fucked and stupid.

Like this doesn't make any sense. Like this is horrible, I the way we're treating people's bad. But like you have to have some sense of humor about stuff or it's a what's the point .

of be in life also that feels like the very dry objective standard of CNN M C. M B C is done more opinion stuff which appreciate even as only a little bit event of the the larger media space just feels very serious. And then there's the right wing cycles.

But if you look at what the right wings doing, IT is, fox and friends is a complete joke. It's an insane show. I'm sure if you watch IT for more than an hour begins to let melt your brain.

But it's fun in a horrifying way like it's trying to make the fascist switching the kay. I'm sure there are some non fascist to watch fox near, i'm sure, as one of anyway. But .

nevertheless.

it's dorky, it's weird. And then everything else outside of the Fisher sphere is just dry, dry as a bone, every is. So no wonder people are going to the joe rogan in the world because it's not like they can open a newspaper or magazine these days in the magazine.

And the newspaper actually speaks directly to that IT doesn't feel like at times it's even written as anything else other than a log of what happened. And it's so hard for modern journalists to escape that I just I don't know, I worry. But also I guess that benefits me that a lot of jealous is going to move opinion side and that's a seen that trump t doesn't get in and just shut down jealous genoa. But that's a another problem.

right? No, I mean, I think that like I like I said with the kids, I don't think they're getting traditional news. I think they use traditional news as like, uh, in the way that we use the same people or P, D, F research for something right. That's how they use IT. They're like, I swear I got this is real to click on this thing I can prove IT that's how they they use IT is like I swear this is proof but they don't like read IT and and just that every day and they really don't sit down and watch topic news because again, why would they they're just being exploration for being alive and that's yeah like it's not useful. I I I think that there is I think both parties are abandoning the premise that um there should be joy in your life um from various different angles right I don't right like the the american right uh the trump rate is a very joyless vector like very well you must support this man or you in .

you must aspire a traditional life I think that's yes that's .

really humorous right um and i'm not saying like the left has an equivalent like I even people do that but like there is like it's just one is so scary, right having to like you it's we're out of making jokes about Donald's romp with IT didn't work like it's ten years later IT IT never tell you durin the trial then showing .

him the tweet everyone else on that really funny may be very sad because I don't want people to think that this will happen to them. I don't want them to think that trump is going to see their tweet. He never will. great. Please stop. sorry. No.

so IT is important to have you know, there must be with tax is i'm staying great. We can have them. What to focus the point you have to let you have to get people into this is why the new york times is still doing .

more because they have word yeah and they and they have some opinion calling this radical and then many others are on and it's very strange IT. That's what I really don't understand that you go all these are steamed outs, lets that have become kind of emergencies. yes.

Like what is that like the new york times, wall street, wall street journalists, the more business, see one, new york times has business coverage. Chicago tribune is in chicago. There are the occasional people out there, boston club I still got here wth the brain doing take like you've still got some voices. It's almost like they've trained them of life, like they arent people with names.

There was this big like um first of all the all the digital places have died or have been eaten, right? So like but he died. They had awesome reportage .

and anything .

there was like human focused empathy based journalism is basically gone. They went to like non profit work. So I want to like the republicans of the world, whatever.

And those have much longer timelines. And their focus isn't really impact. Their focus is like let's get awards, let's get you know, let's get a big wrong story that's really comprehensive about there. And then hopefully somebody will ever and sync, ate and get way so that that's where a lot of that reporting went in the process um all of the Young people either left or were let let go from like places like the times in the post for probably idea gc reasons I would guess, had more how to do with like I don't want to deal with these sniping children anymore and and IT left them with film mar disease that like these places have um the same exact kind of get off my long bury worms that that you see riddled in the netflix combi special.

Welcome to decisions, decisions, the podcast where boundaries are push and conversations get handed. Join your favorite host, me Z W T F M D B, as we dive deep into the world of non traditional relationships and exploit the often taboo topics surrounding dating sex.

that's right. Every monday and wednesday, we would invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchy norms with a blended humor, vulnerability and authenticity. We share our personal journeys, navigating authorities, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engage the provoking discussions that chAllenge societal expectations from .

ground breaking interviews with diverse guests to relax able stories that are resonate with your experiences, decisions, decisions. Is gonna york goat to source for the open dialog about what is truly means to loving connect in today's world?

Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embraced the freedom of authentic connection. Tune, enjoy the conversation.

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And you know it's bad when, like bill burr is successfully on the right side of history of of the palestine and bill mass new, you know it's good people get explode and fucking bill but as they are explaining to him, breath lessons but the truth is, bill mar succeeds because these papers fail. He succeeds because they need some sort of melting candle looking guide to make center right. But he'll say, left statements. And it's just, I wish galison had more of a voice. I wish all of IT did because the fear of access is one thing but it's almost .

it's an ideological statement onto itself putting access above, putting uh you know the interest a dragana capital above all IT does in fact a merit an entire uh etherial strategy.

And I mean at you you nail this with the A I stuff I thought my own lose room where you know people were coming in and saying, and this is only kind of A I talk you would get on television um they were talking about how was going to a big room in the world and all this stuff and world was going to take over in the singularity and all the stuff in whole time was like, no, it's not like it's not like it's not it's rebranded machine learning like we know what we know is happening and like accelerate a little bit too like really mimic like lindon posts, which is really cool. Job my job, everybody. And that makes a mean powerpoint and does like kind of like interesting things with music. IT doesn't IT seems to like .

while stealing, while stealing to do so as well.

When IT messes up, IT gets kind of interesting but when IT does the prompt that you want to do, it's horrible. Oh um yeah so but but like that's that's the thing is like in these in these newsrooms that like a bunch of people with money came into these places and where like this is the next thing you should be scared of IT and that in handset was the marketing campaign of um all of these newsroom leaders fell forward because .

they are at the aspen institute but also IT doesn't seem like any of these news organizations are run by people who write or read .

that been my continual problem ID like there's you when I was in see um no I ever said this like there's a thin layer of that I like to call the game of thrones people OK or at the top of the company be news and they're constantly joking for position, fighting for powering up but has nothing to journalism at all. Like IT is considerably closer to like um the run up to like an eighth grade dance. Then that is to anything to do with journalism, just the case. And those people those are the higher and fire people and they're also um they they they they have a hard time connecting the dots about like both what's important, uh who's doing the best reporting, how to get this stuff out there um what what what's really going on the country because those people are tied up in the the conversations those people are having are are having nothing to do like a regular american .

life yeah and you know what? Let's talk. I first of all, is the onion going to sell IT? Like what is your plan there? Are you going to make any .

deals with these companies ious? I mean, like great, you know, our stuff was surfacing in google searches as answers a couple weeks ago in nine rocks. Uh, yeah, if you ask that how many rocks you should eats per day, IT told you you should one small rocky day because we did a bit about how, like, there is a headlands, said geologist, recommend with one one small rock day.

Is OK a industry doing that? We're pr thing and it's in the google um uh developer blog about why they took down that feature is because they couldn't they figure fully figure out how they got in their day. IT got aggregated from a um IT was like a initiation ation sandwich. I was like I got that story, got agreed from a fake fracking news website that was really run by the fracking industry. And then that is that as an answer um within within google.

So was like five problems ago i'll rapped up into this night but uh no obviously I don't know not uh playing in that game in part because I feel like it's already kind of dying but second about boy would be funny if we did as a bit, uh, if if you're interested as a bit opening, I give us a ring. Uh, we would love to pollute your dataset. Sounds awesome.

Well, IT, would that in mind if theyve already stolen the onion? If they have already, would you will there be legal action to protect them?

I mean, we thought about a man like we really did think about that because um I think of the day is dealing our arth dealing our war like one of the ones that because that was not enclosed the only uninformed sold in google um and that .

was just with the listener that to the google search generative experience popping up on an article and using them as a source .

for an answer but me but like one of the ones was can any White liquid be considered milk IT had like the exact bits of a joke I was like, yes and here is an example IT was like A I want he was like something IT was a IT was like glue um particularly White water climb juice but I was the exact debits of our joke implanted in the answer I just .

don't yeah .

and like even if IT is, it's still theft even if it's wrong.

But that's the thing. It's right now. We're in this very strange world where you've got writers like the atlantic. This just happened. You've got writers who like, oh yeah, stealing all the journalism is very bad.

We don't like IT in the Nicholas omen sea of the atlantic, formally of wire, who did a very glossy thing on one of the questioner, investments. Ask a health. Anyway, my grievances aside, he did this big announcement and said, hey, OpenAI is going to train on the atlantic big day for us.

And damon barrs, over at the atlantic, god blesses mediately had an article to be like this sug, Nancy, just this. So I don't like this one bit. But what do you think of these deals? Are they good for journalism or are they just kind of torto bullshit?

Um it's bad. It's like there is a massive pollution of the world happening to ops gate. Good information because like a nardo wells benefit from that as a concept. Um the more and narrow the pathetic to get good information on the interview, the people would benefit from that are rich people like if the have good access to information are rich people, those rich people get richer or from the good information like that um once once there is information scarcity, um the people who will hurt IT are the rich right they have no problem pay paying for like a like a bomberg terminal, they don't care.

Pay for the information every launch the the packager like they will do um well where's everybody else is just like searching around for scrap so searching you yeah they're like it's red is probably yeah like I like that. The thing is like we're now in a situation where IT is hard. It's probably hardly get good answers if you have a new pet, if you have a baby.

Just basic stuff that regular people go through is being robbed of these people. But from from these companies, for no reason. Google didn't have to ruin their whole product for this.

They're doing IT till like satisfied shareholder into get in on this fed that exists to prop up uh, the idea of progress in american economy. But it's not progress is actually like several steps back. yeah.

So with that in mind, how do you actually save journalism business wise? What is the thin? I know just a small question for you. What what's the plan? But seriously, that what do you do now because online advertizing feels like it's dying, IT feels like it's falling apart is and how do you how hold us three journalists and even survive?

okay. So first of all, we have to do all the things that worked over the last ten years, right? Instead of just like loading up everything behind this, like infinite growth, more and more traffic competing for what we're probably the end of. They completely fake I balls right right over some of the stories that I got like at the daily b had millions of views like like a ridiculous amounts in a couple hours and all that kind of feels faker wrong. IT doesn't feel yes, he feels a million .

people didn't see IT right.

It's like I don't know exactly what happened there, but this is just doesn't feel right. And what we're going to do is we're going to take some of those pieces that worked so right now was working in in trade, in in media that I like is profile. So it's like four four media, the factor um aftermath. These are all like narrow rider collab that really works and like this place got the point, what's really a small place so we can work up that. Um also in the comedy world, this is single drop out, do you know drop us?

No, I don't. okay.

So it's a lot like that. He used to be called college humor. Um he was owned by I A C very deler biller got sick of having IT and .

I co s most of the dating sites, right?

Most of the dating sites, I think like their own daily beast. I used to work. I see um still lots of for them. So uh very little of sick of having IT IT used to run that all model talking about do you sold back to the original founders of company for, like cup a few hundred thousand dollars and then those like, right, just start fresh.

Like, but what do we actually want us to be? And they made a subscription model of just, you know, improve comedy and like some stuff they like to do, like D N D, whatever. It's called dropout.

And IT has, I think, like a somewhere like newer millions scribers at six dollars a month. And they just sold out two nights in a row. Mass square garden that's wild. I saw one of the shows and this this happened. They were sold from bardelli in like peak early pandemics. Ally twenty twenty one is writing that and that took with this what three years of some thing um they knew how to do IT right and they they put a lot of work and do IT.

But that sort of the space that we want to play in as a baseline and they were going to other stuff to do like to do all we're going to do more, uh, traditional media stuff, video stuff um but we want to get in the member ship people if they like us, we will send them cool shit in the mail and also. In their email and i'll pay us a sum of money. And then like on top of that, will use that make T V shows stuff like that. That's our that's our goal and will have Better merging. Will just try to serve people directly and hoped this like, you know this very old timmy y way of doing IT works like that's that's .

return to patronage almost .

yeah I mean, like there's yes, I think I think we can do that. And like if fucking and samsung wants to launch their galaxy four.

galaxy s seven.

galaxy no little .

nine and two for the for .

us and nine and head baby um jesus um but yeah if they if they want to launch their exploding phone, what is the joke?

It's just really good for the listeners here who loved this stuff that was then nine and clean comedian whose joke was all that really blew up. Someone must have plugged in their samsung galaxy note seven and classic phone that just started exploited because it's battery. Anyway, what were we .

talking about now? We want to be returned to pay for windows, and we want to be able to like we want to be able, uh, no say the things that people are all thinking, we can't say. And then when that happens, we want them to, you know pays money on a seven newspaper in the male.

but there will still be free content.

Oh, the whole the site is the onion is a public service. So we're to we're going to make sure everything you know, our journalism free.

One final question, are you going to start pushing bylines ever? Because the one thing that the onion doesn't have right now is names and maybe that's good.

So um you had this I had conversation because like it's been uh IT does protect people but is also obtaining the ask of lake yes and um but like the process here is like so beautiful that I don't know my message like that the thing I want do I don't i'm never going to write a headline. I'm never to select anny um I don't want to do that and just like I am here to make IT so if they want to make a video out of something they can do IT if they want to make a new sad I can do IT here's our process um every day they have like a couple hundred contributors .

who are all .

like alarms some of famous people that I can't reveal javan broke ama Nancy poli america's onny people but they're we end our ten separators and editors all send completely anonymous headlines into this bucket， the anonymized in a google form. They those get window down by whoever there is a person.

When is that the list who brings into the meeting? Then there's like a couple hundred headlines that remain those are all those are spoken out loud if they are funny um and if they're laugh that they generally they might have a chance that gets mentally eight or ten a day and then from there they write him up and if they don't really work, then they thrown away. And so you get to this like, you know, so you get to the half thousand and headlines that you get a day on the union every day this process happens and then they go back in their leg. They figured out who wrote IT after all that and I that is like the most egalitarian way. Uh, anything works in journalism or or uh reiters rooms or anything at all and why would why would any mess that IT sucks that there's no one sometimes it's like a huge team effort and part of the beauty is and not knowing who is from.

I've at the onion twenty years, and i'm so happy to see IT in the hands of somebody who actually cares, who loves writers and writing and creating interesting things that read is love.

It's really frustrating that this is the exception rather than the rule, but I believe that sites like the onion on, along with worker oed cocos like the vector an aftermath, making sports journalism and games journalism, respectively, are the future of journalism itself. Institutions that empower great writer ers that deeply care about the subject matter, building sustainable, lasting businesses and relationships with their readers. And I really am serious when I say, this is the future Better offline IT could happen here.

Behind the bus is great. Show some, choose one, media, sixteen s minute of fame. These are all things built by building real relationships with you, the listener, with people actually consuming this stuff, making cool stuff with a longer time horizon, then, I don't know, six months, making great things and hoping people will pay for them.

I mean, IT seems obvious, but journalism has been almost completely swallowed, kind of like when 科比 eats something and he poo ops IT out and he turns into IT， 科比 isn't that he just stole IT。 And that is the modern state of journalism. Journalism can be saved by people like ben Collins, and can be saved by people like the vector and aftermath IT can be saved by people who make this stuff, and IT must be put back in the hands of who make these things.

It's time to stop building big, ugly, unsustainable journalism with insane started valuation goals. IT just isn't possible anymore. What is possible is giving great people enough of a chance to build a real audience and a great product. And I think you will agree a Better world as possible. Additionally, media, I promise you, IT, just has to be built by and for the writers themselves.

Thank you for listening to Better or offline the editorial um composer of the battle offline theme song is matter south sky. You can check out more of his music and audio projects.

A meta celski dot com M A T T O S O W S K I dot com, you can email me, are easy at Better off line dot com or visit Better off line 点 com to find more podcast links。 And of course, my newsletter, I also really recommend you go to chat that was your ad, or at to visit the discord and go to ask lash betroth line to check out our read IT. Thank you so much for listening. Better off line is a production of cool zone media. For more from cool zone media, visit our website, cools on me, get dot com, or check us .

out on the I heart radio up apple podcast or whatever you get your podcast.

Welcome to decisions, decisions, the podcast where boundaries are push and conversations get handed. Join your favorite host, me v WTF and me mad b as we dive deep into the world of non traditional relationships and explore the often w topic surrounding dating .

sex and every monday and wednesday, we both invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms, tune and enjoying .

the conversation. Listen to decisions, decisions on the black effect podcast network I have radio APP, apple pocket or wherever you get .

your boat cast.

looking for the perfect Christmas playlist will check out ninety three point nine light F M chicago s Christmas music station playing your favorite holiday artists, including being crosby, mari, Carry for sinatra, Michael bob and Moore. Turn on the holiday light to get in a festive mood, whether at work, in traffic or at home putting up the decorations. We can't wait to celebrate the season with you. Listen to ninety three point nine light F M. In chicago or anywhere in the world on the, I had radio at.