Did Ancient People Have Sex Toys?
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Hello, my lovely Betwixters. How the hell are you doing? It's me, Kate Lister. I am me, you are you, and this is Betwixt the Sheets. And I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects, and you should be an adult too. And if you can't tick every single one of those off your list, then you have no business being here at all. And for the rest of you, on with the show.

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Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society, with me, Kate Lister. That post-Christmas period can be something of a slump.

A little post-festive malaise. Which is why it's great if you have some toys to play with. Even better if they're sex toys. To be honest, I don't know if Santa delivers sex toys down the chimney, but he brings joy, so why wouldn't he? For today's episode, we are revisiting an earlier conversation I had with the rather wonderful Hallie Lieberman, author of Buzz, the Stimulating History of the Sex Toy, to find out more about the long history of sex toys.

Batteries at the ready, Betwixters. Let's do this.

So thank you so much for joining me Betwixt the Sheets. I am absolutely buzzing. It's sex toy historian Hallie Lieberman. And thank you, Kate, so much for having me on your podcast. I'm a big fan of your book, of your work. So I'm very excited to be here. Hallie, I want to know your expertise. I mean, as long as there have been people, we've been carving dicks and sticking stuff places that we probably shouldn't have been putting them. But what's like the oldest...

sex toy that has been found? Okay, so the oldest sex toy that has been found is like 30,000 years old. It's a stone phallus. There are debates found in like the whole Fels cave in Germany. And there are debates whether like these stone phalluses were dildos because there are no pictures of them like shoving them in orifices. So some people think that they were ceremonial, but it could be a sex toy. So that's the oldest.

Whenever they unearth what's clearly a dick, there then ensues a big conversation about, yes, but what is it? And you can't say it's a sex toy because we don't know. It could be a coat hook. It could be ceremonial, is what they usually say. It's like, what's the argument for this one at 28,000 years old is definitely a dildo? And what's the argument against?

Yeah. So I don't think people are saying it's definitely a dildo. It's more like this is something it could be. And then the argument against will be like, oh, it could be a spear sharpener. That's the other thing. And it's like, why, why do we need to sharpen our spears on dick like objects? Like we don't do that today. Should I would love that. But for me, like when I was researching it, it's like,

This kind of male fear of dildos and sex toys goes back so far. So even if we see something that's clearly a dick, sometimes other excuses are made for them or they're dismissed in some way. So that's possibly the earliest sex toy that we've got.

Let's like jump it on thousands of years because we've got to talk about the vibrator in the room, don't we? That myth. You know the myth that I'm talking about, Hallie. Take it away. Yeah. So there's a myth that probably some of your listeners have heard of, which is that vibrators were used to treat...

hysteria in women in doctor's offices in the early 1900s. And so the idea was women went into doctor's office. They said, Oh, I'm complaining of hysteria. And what was hysteria? It could be anything. It could be just general malaise. It could be anxiety. It was this catch all diagnosis. And so they would complain and doctors would say, Hey,

I've got a great treatment for you. Take off your britches or whatever they were calling them then.

And I'll put this vibrator on your clitoris. I will give you paroxysm as the story goes, and you will be cured. And a paroxysm is orgasm, but the cure will only last for a short time. You have to keep coming back. And the reason that vibrators were used as part of the myth is men's hands were getting tired. Male doctor's hands were getting tired, giving hand jobs to women for hysteria. Now,

This on its face of it sounds absurd and untrue, and it is. But this myth has lasted forever and it won't die. And there are lots of reasons for that. And it's been the subject of two films as well, hasn't it?

It has. One starring Maggie Gyllenhaal. So it definitely seeped into popular consciousness. So how do you go about dismantling that? How did you prove that that didn't happen? Yeah, well, it started a long time ago when I was in grad school. And the assignment was check the citations of a book you're using for your research. And I did it. And so did the whole class.

And I was the only one whose results were, like at first I thought, I was like, I'm misunderstanding this. I'm in grad school. None of these citations are adding up to what the book is saying. There's something I'm missing. And my professor said, that's, you're absolutely right. These don't add up. And then I actually went to the archives, Bakken Museum in Minnesota and checked all their citations and found out none of them said this practice was happening.

The problem wasn't that I found this out. The problem was getting anybody to believe me. No one wanted to publish it. They're like, oh, you're only a grad student. So you don't know what you're talking about. Like I was trying to like get it peer reviewed and published. And they were like, no, no, you're assaulting a scholar in the field. And it's like, I don't care anything about the scholar. I just want the truth out there. And that made me cynical. It took me almost seven, eight years to get it published and

And finally, it was just like I gave up and just threw it to a new journal. I was like, this journal just came out. They have nothing to lose. And it worked. Thank God. And the earliest ones are stone. But just speaking of how people made sex toys, Holly, like what were they making them of? Presumably the stone model would have been replaced pretty quick. Like if you were in, I don't know, medieval, what would you make a dildo out of in medieval period?

Yeah, I mean, there were dildos made out of all sorts of things like leather. There were dildos made of ivory. Those were like...

the main things until like rubber came along. And when rubber came along in the mid 1800s, well, actually rubber was before then that that was when it was vulcanized. So there were these rubber dildos, except that they would crack because they were like this bad material, like before vulcanization and they couldn't be sanitized and they had a strong smell. And so that's what, there were a lot of rubber dildos.

I've seen like polished wooden ones, but these must have been quite pricey. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention wood. Yes, dildos were something like for the upper classes. These were not something that like right now anyone can afford a dildo. We can go to amazon.com. We could all order dildos. One second, it would be like...

$5 cheap. But yeah, back then they were expensive. They were handmade. You know, we didn't have an assembly line making them. And so it was upper classes owning them. And just from my research, it looks like they were marketed to men to buy for their wives, the men who weren't intimidated by them. I mean, but they weren't that widespread. They

In the 1950s, so sex toys were illegal in the U.S. And sex toys started being illegal in the U.S. in the 1870s with Comstock, who was this anti-vice reformer. And one of the ways to get around these sex toy laws was to sell things as marital age, which these laws stayed on the books for like 100 years. We still have anti-sex toy laws in Alabama in the U.S., but there were two ways to get around it.

One was to say it was for use in like a marriage relationship and it was for help with penetration during sex. So it was okay to sell a dildo that was a strap on penis that was designed as a marital aid for a man to wear during sex with his wife. And it would specifically say this, and this is even in the sixties and seventies during the so-called sexual revolution. That's how dildos were sold. Even though women were obviously in men using them to masturbate,

If you sold them that way, you could get arrested. Even if you sold them this other way, I've looked at the records and there are complaints saying it's obscene.

When they were selling it like that, this is a marital aid that a husband can use. Was that like the way that herbal highs are sold as air fresheners? Like everyone knows it's bollocks. Everyone knows what it's being used for really. Or like, were they actually trying to sell it to men to strap on? It was a little bit of both because when I talked to manufacturers, they said there were men who wrote in who were impotent. I mean, cause this was before Viagra. This was before there were treatments available.

So it was a little bit of both. But I do think people knew. There were jokes about Marilyn. It's like, I think people knew that...

Also, this was their way of getting around the laws. I mean, vibrators were sold as marital aids too, even though mostly used during masturbation. And there were some sex devices. This is during second wave feminism in the 1970s and 1960s or vibrators. There's one called the prelude. And it was called that because it was considered a prelude to sex. And

And it very clearly said, it was penetrated, you're going to learn how to please yourself so that you can have sex with your husband better. And that was kind of the mentality. And that was a way to get around the laws and the stigma. Oh my, I've never heard of that. So it was almost like this is a dress rehearsal dildo. I love that term. Exactly. Yeah. Just to take you back, because I think that we need to just go back to the Victorians.

Who invented them? Who invented the vibrator? Do we know who invented it? So Granville, who Joseph Warrenville, Granville, who mentions in her work, was invented the electromechanical vibrator from that era. So he invented the plug-in vibrator. But before then, there were vibrators, there were hand crank vibrators, one called the VD vibrator.

Super popular in England and US. Wait a minute, the vibrator was called VD? Yeah. Oh, that's a marketing error. It is. Oh, no. It's like V-E-E-D-E-E. But the hand crank, it was like, so you'd crank, crank, crank, crank, crank, and then it would vibrate. But it was like, I mean, it would hurt your hand. It's like, you might as well masturbate.

And this kind of vibrator, actually a hand crank vibrator, came back on the market about 10 years ago as like earth-friendly vibrator, like one that didn't require batteries. It was like this eco vibrator. An eco vibrator. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Okay.

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And Mr. Granville, when he invented this, you can't see any here, but what it looks like is it looks like a lead weight on a piece of string that kind of, he called it percussing, didn't he? Like it kind of taps the body. Is that right? Like it's not what you think of when you think of a vibrator and it's certainly not anything that you'd want near your genitals. So what was it supposed to be used for?

So there were like attachments that he discussed in his writings. But one of the earliest uses he mentioned was for impotence. So it was male impotence. And so it was for vibrating the perineum was one of the earliest uses and sexual uses. He actually said don't use it on women initially.

And he was worried about that. But yeah, I mean, he tried it for all ailments. That's kind of like what vibratory massage was like sciatica. You know, they were trying it for deafness at the time. Deafness. Oh my God. Yeah, you can see old vibrator ads and they have like attachments that, you know, go in your ear. So he kind of threw it out there as a doctor basically saying like, we're going to try out

These different treatments. Here's what I have tried out. Here's a tool that people can use. And doctors took it and ran with it. And even cancer, like they tried to treat cancer with it. I mean, we're talking about the 1800s. We don't have antibiotics. Medicine is so kind of archaic. I was just reading about leeches being used on the vagina last night. Anyway, so we have all sorts of bad treatments and, um,

the vibrator was thought like hey like this isn't gonna hurt people they feel good let's try it for indigestion and it actually works for that people do it for babies but anyway all these different things whoa no sorry go back whoa vibrators on babies for stomach ache well okay so they marketed vibrators to babies back i mean obviously no they didn't that's

Okay. And can't purchase them. It was in the ads. Like it would have for all age groups. So this is the ads we're talking about 1910s around then. I mean, they were trying to sell this product. It wasn't entirely sexual. It was marketed as this kind of cure-all. It's like CBD of today or snake oil of then.

So they're trying to get the biggest market that they could, and it would be babies, it would be grandparents, it would be all ages. And just to clarify, these weren't vibrators that you were supposed to use sexually. These were like actual massaging things that you were supposed to use. Nobody in their right mind was actually suggesting that you use it sexually on all ages. No. So basically it was...

And I'm just going to, cause I have it here. I'm going to hold it up, but this is a vibrator from the era. And it was basically like had this big, heavy motor and lots of different attachments. And so a flat attachment might be what, which is on here right now, which of course people can't see, but it's like this flat rubber disc and

And they would say, you know, you could massage a baby with that. But you could also order in a catalog where some came with a phallic attachment, which looked like a dildo or a rectal attachment. And those were usually $150 or $2. They're more expensive than anything else. And that was for vaginal and uterine problems or for impotence or rectal problems. That was not marketed for kids. So...

So obviously no one can see the vibrator that you are holding up. But if I describe that, I'd have to say it looks... You know like the old-fashioned whisks that you used to have with like the two attachments? Like if you don't have the metal prongs in it, it looks like that. But with, like you said, a flat thing that kind of...

pats on the skin like yeah and it's interesting that you mentioned that because that same motor that was used for the vibrator was used for a bunch of different things including vacuums including blenders which is similar this motor was used for small appliances like you know they just try to sell for everything vibrators one of a lot

See, think of that next time you're whisking your eggs, that technology. When did they stop looking like a weird egg whisk? Because obviously the traditional shape...

Like the cock shape has been quite consistently popular, hasn't it? And do you know one of the weirdest things that I've found reference to, just jumping around now, but when they find like 18th century dildos, they have plungers in them to like simulate cum. Like surely one of the best things about a dildo is there's no cum. Who designed that? Yeah.

Men, of course. Yeah, the plunger dildos are really interesting and they'll say like you can put warm milk in them. And it's like gross. No, I don't want warm milk in my cooch.

Just the thought process there of like, well, they must want the grand finale. They can't possibly want this. And what were these women doing? They make their dildo come and then they go, oh, well, we better go to sleep now because it's all over. What? I know. Dildo's gone to sleep now.

It's pretty ridiculous. And that is like kind of the story of dildo design is hyper realism. Like the assumption when they're designed by men is that women want sex toys that look exactly like penises. I mean, some sex toys designers looked at their own dick and made them all of it. But actually one of my favorite sex toy designers did that who worked with the feminist movement later, Gosnell Duncan. He was paraplegic engineer who was designing a sex toy that

To allow himself to have sex with his wife because they got engaged before he got injured. So... Stick a pin in that. We're coming back to that one. But...

When did they start being marketed penis-shaped on mass market and not like an egg with? Yeah, so I tried to find this. This was hard to find, but I believe the first one I have ever seen was the 1950s. That doesn't mean they didn't exist before then. And that was hard plastic. They would use...

The hard plastic outside. And I think it was in part because of battery technology, because these were battery. Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah. But those actually, so I saw one from the 50s, but you really start to see those in the 60s. And again, even though they look like dicks, like, you know, abstract dicks,

In Ant from the 60s, you see women holding them up to their face going, ooh, personal massager. And it's like, uh, what? Has anyone in the history of sex toys used one of those neck massagers to massage their neck? I would guess no. Or maybe like... No, that never happened. Yeah, never. Never.

But tell me about this guy, the paraplegic guy who invented a sex toy. I had no idea. Yeah, so his name, like I said, was Gosnell Duncan. He was born in Grenada. He immigrated to the US. And so he went to Brooklyn, met this woman. Well, he'd known her from his town, got engaged to her. But yeah, he was in this accident. International Harvester Company in Chicago where truck bed was.

fell on him. He became paralyzed from the waist down and he was devastated because he was a ladies' man. He had four kids from four different women before this happened.

And a skilled calypso dancer. This guy was amazing. But I know it was really sad, but he was like a very positive person. And so he did months and months of rehab. He got married in the rehab facility, like to Angela, this woman he was in love with. But he said as he was rehabbing, no one mentioned sex. And this was in the 60s.

And they didn't see, you know, disabled people as sexual beings. And he's like, well, what am I going to do? How am I going to have sex? And there were some sex toys on the market. They sucked. He was like an inventor. So he went to this conference in 1971 in Indianapolis, a disabled conference. He said, would any of you buy a dildo or a device for handicapped people? Bunch of hands raised up. So he decided to design one. He actually ended up inventing the silicone dildo.

No way. Yeah. Oh my god. What was his name again? Gaston Duncan. All hail. Oh my goodness. What an unsung hero. Oh my god. Yes. And he was dark skinned and was annoyed that all the sex toys came in Caucasian. That was like flesh color was Caucasian flesh.

And if you wanted anything else, it was like, I'm holding this up thinking we're on video, but it was like just matte black color, not skin color. So he worked with GE to design the silicone and to get different pigments that showed black and brown sticking colors. So he was a real revolutionary.

My God, that's incredible. And so when he pioneered the inclusive range of silicone dildos, was that not for his pleasure, presumably, but so he could pleasure a partner? Yes. What a legend. Oh, yeah. He's...

Absolutely a legend. This is like a great immigrant story. But yeah, it was initially for Angela and for the disabled community, but he couldn't sell enough. He was making his basement in Brooklyn, literally like making molds, like pouring them in there, curing them and selling them. And people would send him these letters. So he'd advertise and

And he would, you know, they'd say, this is my disability. And then he'd say, well, what are your penis measurements? And they would send him little pieces of string to measure the circumference. And he would make one to their specifications. I don't know how that's managed to be really hot and kind of cute at the same time. That's just like...

Oh, right. Well, he deserves a plaque or some kind of national day. Don't let anyone tell you immigration doesn't reap positive benefits. My God. It's like I talk about him a lot, but you mentioned there about dildo sex toys in the feminist movement.

What did dildos, because like actually when I said that out loud, you could be forgiven that the feminist movement might be about going, we don't need dildos. Like, you know, like any getting rid of the penis, you know, the more radical stuff. But so how does that fit together then? Yeah, so in the 70s and 60s, most feminists weren't talking about sex toys. Okay, let's just be honest here. But when they started talking about sex toys, they were talking about

They were against them for the reasons you say, like they were physical embodiments. Yeah. Physical embodiments of the patriarchy. So it was like, if you're, you know, fighting against a patriarchy at day and then, you know, masturbating with a giant dildo at night, you're a hypocrite. That was the view of a bunch of feminists.

So there was that kind of thing, like you can't do it in lesbians. There was a stereotype at the time that all lesbians just really wanted penises. Like they actually, like lesbian sex wasn't satisfying and what they wanted were dicks. And so a lot of lesbians kind of internalized that view. And I didn't mean to make a pun or wasn't even a pun, but anyway. And they said, we won't use penises.

a dildo because for you know these political or philosophical reasons especially because everyone assumes we like them and penetration is male and so a lot of lesbians and feminists who wanted to use dildos did it on the down low and they were in the closet about it surreptitious dildo use

Absolutely. And so then with vibrators, basically vibrators had a mixed reception as well. So Betty Dodson, this masturbation pioneer. So she was a second wave feminist pioneer, but she was like hated by a lot of other second wave feminists. So she was this artist pioneer.

who couldn't have an orgasm during sex with her husband. And she's like, what is this? What's going on? She ended up learning about the clitoris. She ended up learning about vibrators. Her lover was getting a haircut and they used a vibrator on a scalp because they didn't back then in the 60s.

I confirmed it with my father. He's like, it felt good. Could you imagine today if you just go to the haircut and the hairdresser just whipped out a rampant rabbit? I'll just finish off here. Oh my God. They would probably get arrested.

And rightly so. Yeah, that's right. Like if my hairdresser did that, I would be so terrified and probably call the police. So anyway, that's how she got introduced to it. She started using Hitachi magic. Well, the precursor to that. And she wanted to share this knowledge with other feminists. So she started these kind of groups.

where there were these liberating masturbation groups where she'd teach people about their genitals because a lot of women were insecure about their labia and still are. And the requirement was you had to get naked before you entered the group. And that was like the worst part for most women. And then you get naked and she'd basically say you were normal and you

You know, you'd look at your vagina and labia. And then she taught women how to masturbate. And a lot of people in these groups had their first orgasms. So she was the real push to bring vibrators in the feminist movement. That doesn't mean they were accepted. She was accepted.

criticized so much for doing this and just to make i mean again she can enter my sex pantheon hall of fame but just to clarify when you're talking about vibrators here we're not necessarily talking about the fake dicks that vibrate we're talking about like specifically for the clit they're called wands yes is that right like the hitachi wand or as i like to call it oh

That one? Yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about. Things that were at the time sold as gifts for Mother's Day in the New York Times. No. Yes. Yes.

And so we still have these two kind of uses in culture. We have Betty Dotson going, I've had a hundred orgasms from this and you should too. It's changed my life. You don't need a man anymore. And then you have, oh, buy this for your mom, like on May 8th. And so it was this weird, and we still kind of have that in our culture, but it was this weird kind of double life of the vibrator. And Hitachi wasn't admitting the uses. And she's like, Hitachi should have sponsored me.

So these really were massaging devices to start with. They really were. And Hitachi just kind of just went, no, no, no, no, for a long time. Exactly. But they knew what was going on. So it was like a tacit acceptance. Like they didn't tell her to stop.

but they never said until I think it was 2010 or something 2015 then they you know admitted they were first 2015 it was something yeah it was when they finally went yeah all right we know what you're doing that's wild it took a long ass time and and yeah so it's pretty crazy but she introduced them and you know she made this larger philosophical argument which I mentioned briefly which was like

You shouldn't have to depend on a man for an orgasm that women are having these like financial relationships with men where they're trading financial security with sex, but they're not even having orgasms for men. So don't worry about it. You know, make your own money. Your sex isn't tied up to a man. Use a vibrator for sex.

free yourself and that was a very threatening message to men even to other women to gender roles and marital roles at the time come a long way then haven't we because talking about sex and pleasure i mean i would have said that's a central part of the feminist conversation or maybe it's just the conversations that i'm having but like making sure that you get yours yeah

Third wave feminism has come a long way. Absolutely. So at the time, like Betty Friedan argued like a thousand vibrators can't make a difference in the status of women.

And others were arguing, like, get rid of this orgasm politics. But now I think, you know, I mean, you see on Instagram people promoting vibrators, even though it's against policy to market openly market sex toys on Instagram or Facebook. But anyway, you see people posting things talking about the orgasm gap and how women deserve to have as many orgasms as men. And so, yeah, it's shifted. Yeah.

But I still think that women are reticent about demanding orgasms in a relationship. I still think there's a lot of public facing stuff that says that, but I still think they're in the bedroom itself. Some women are still uncomfortable about that. And by some women, I'm thinking of one of my friends in particular, who I won't name. I know. Oh.

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Download the Instacart app and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Plus, enjoy free delivery on your first three orders. Service fees and terms apply. So I think that that is true. We're better, but I think we're still on this script of like, when he has an orgasm, that's kind of it. Yeah. You know, and that's no, no, no, no, no, no. You get yours. But just while we're speaking about men, I'm

Sex toys for men. What's their history? Because you think sex toys, you tend to think sex toys for women. I mean, what sex toys are there for men and what are their history? So, I mean, the biggest like is the artificial vagina or pocket pussy. Did you say of course? Yes. And you shake your head like very knowingly. That is very, very old. I mean, they're ones...

I'm sure they're going back further than this, but I've seen like Japanese ones that are like 300 years old that are gorgeous, actually. Fabric. I mean, I don't know if they worked well. I'm not saying they were great like for use, but they looked pretty. And there were also sex dolls made of fabric and things like that. Yeah, so those have almost as long a history as dildos, but they've never been...

as written about as much. And I think, again, they aren't as threatening, so they don't have that kind of

cachet whatever but in the 50s and 60s they were sold as marital aids as well and they're like these vaginas that look like deflated pool toys that's the best i can like the things people wear around their arms little kids on buns yep yep it looks like a deflated version of that and caucasian flesh color and it's sold as a way to you know have sex with your wife

So that's how that was sold in the US in the 60s. But what we have today, there's sex dolls, there's sex robots that are like so low tech, like they don't really work well. Like everyone's afraid of sex robots. And then you look at a video and it's like the head can move. It can't walk. It can't do anything. Like the fear of sex robots outshines the actual reality. But I would say the biggest thing for men are the flashlights.

Wow. I mean, yeah, there's a whole big thing in there about sex robots, but like, you know, my phone won't even hold a charge. Like, what are we going to do with a sex robot, for God's sake? But speaking of that, like, what's the future of sex toys? Where's it going to go? Like, you know, the design, I suppose, is it either goes in or it's something to stick something in and variations on that. But...

Like futuristic sex toys. What are we talking? What's coming our way? Yeah, you know, as far as futuristic, I just spent like three days in a sex toy store actually for a story. And I was looking and what struck me is how...

old-fashioned the technology is. Like, the case looks different. The rabbit vibrator may be in a different color or may be made of silicone, which was a big innovation in the 70s. But the actual, like, eccentric motor used to power it is the same that we've been using for 100 years.

So, in a way, the change, I mean, the biggest thing in sex toys is like the womanizer, the air, whatever they call it, the air suction vibrators. Do you know the womanizer? Okay.

I'm not familiar with this, but I'm going to make some notes. So carry on. Okay. Yeah. It's a clitoral stimulator. And so it creates like a suction on the clitoris and it's almost like you're vacuuming. This is terrible way to describe it because it's not sexy, but it's almost like you're vacuuming your clitoris. Nice. Yeah.

I like to keep a clean shop. These are really popular. So that's like the new technology. But the future is, you know, possibly in things like sex robots. But people have been saying that's the future of sex toys forever and they haven't come to fruition. One of the things that bothers me is sex.

sex robots and sex dolls are designed for men. Just like, and they're very few male dolls. So even male dolls designed for gay men are hard to find. And then you see in these sex doll forums, the female users are like, oh my God, this thing's too heavy. I can't move Ken. You know, I can't move Steve around. Like he weighs 80 pounds, which is a lot.

And so they can't move them around and they're like, I can't get off on my sex doll because he's just got like a regular day and there's no clitoral stimulation. So that again, designed and have some of the same issues that like having sex with a human is. So there aren't any sex dolls designed for women yet. Sex doll technology is really expanding, but women have been kind of left out of it. I mean, if it was designed for women of a clitoral stimulator on the mouth,

on the genitals, on the anus. Who knows? It would just be like a giant clitoral stimulator with hair and face or something. Like hair. Do you think that that's really telling? That like sex dolls for men, they're like a massive success. And when they just made a sex doll for a woman that was just a man, it was shit. Yeah.

Yeah, I think it says so much. And not only was it shit, there were all these articles, especially in the UK, was like male sex dolls with bionic penises are taking over the world. It's like, no, they're not. Jesus, no, they're not.

What about something like virtual reality? Is that because presumably as soon as they've got that tech, that porn will play a part in that? Well, yeah. So porn is huge for VR right now. Huge industry. There's a lot of money. It's already here. Okay. And I've got a VR device. Actually, I don't look at porn on it because it's PlayStation. And so maybe I could. But anyway, I play Beat Saber.

But that has become huge. And I've interviewed people who make porn for virtual reality and do sort of like cam girl where like you hook up your sex device and this porn star is actually controlling it. And I said, well, have you tried, you know, doing cam boys for women? And that hasn't caught on. They haven't really made an effort. And even like, I mean, a big problem with VR porn is it's male gaze on steroids. Right.

So that's what it is. I know like a few videos created for women, but mostly it's like the man's view of what's sexy. And here are all these women you can have sex with. And it's not designed for women. And I think there's a real missed opportunity because I think women could really get into VR porn.

God, yeah. I mean, you don't want just like the VR where it's just somebody just getting you off. You want something like to be placed into that scene in Pride and Prejudice where Colin Firth was coming out of the pool and then suddenly the virtual reality takes over and suddenly, yeah, you're doing him. That would sell, right? Oh my God. Have I given away too much of myself there? No, that would be totally amazing. Like, yes, everyone would love it. Or Bridgerton or...

Yeah. I mean, it could be a big hit, but again, it's been ignored. And that's kind of like my pet peeve is like the leading edge of technology for sex products is again, you know, being directed towards men, even though like the great thing is that vibrators have been accepted on a level that they haven't been accepted since 1915 when we were pretending there was something else.

Although still you could advertise them more widely back then in the States, which is terrible. But yeah, this leading edge. So there's good and bad. Also, the other thing is teledildonics, the communicating via apps. Thanks to the internet, like if you had a vibrator right now and I had this device, I could use my app and make it vibrate. Oh, that's quite clever.

Hilarious, but clever. I mean, you'd just be buzzing your friends like when they were trying to do a presentation at work or something, wouldn't you? Yes, that is one of the downsides because they can be hacked. So when this first came out, people were... Yeah. Oh, now there's an error. There's a glitch. It's a real glitch. Like you do not want someone hacking into your bot plug. Like that is a nightmare. No, you don't. Of all the things...

Have my bank details. Just don't do that. But I was just thinking like, yeah, yeah, bank details would be preferable. But I mean, that could be a good, you know, way to destroy a world leader like a Putin or a bot plug and we hacked into it during like an important meeting. That would be great. But yeah, so there's issues with that that trying to fix or they have fixed. And then there's other ones that...

you and your partner are both wearing a device and you're both controlling it and so that stuff's kind of cool that is kind of cool Jill I would love to stay here chatting with you but I've got to kind of wrap things up but the last question that I'd like to ask you is that we've spoken a lot about the history of sex toys and if anyone wants to know more Hallie's book Buzz the history of sex toys have I got that right is that the title give me the full title I don't want to get it wrong yeah

It works. I think it's right. Yeah. You think it's right? Go and read that because it's absolutely incredible. But we've looked at the history and we've spoken a bit about what's coming towards the future. But as someone who studies sex toys for a living, what is the future that you would like to see for sex toys and women? Like if you were in charge, what would you roll out?

So if I were in charge, I think that I would roll out a sex doll for women, like I described, that had all the clitoral stimulators. That would be one of the things I would do. I would also have more research on women's sexuality at universities.

So that we can like and research on sex tech at universities. And there's some millions of dollars spent on military tech and technologies of death, as I call them. If we spent even a fraction of that on technologies of sex, we could come up with something new. So I feel like that would be the greatest thing to me is if more research funds were put into this. Studying women's sexuality and women's sexual devices and men's as well.

And men's book, but they've been the star of this one for a long time now. I think that, yeah, that would be amazing, wouldn't it? More research, more money, more resources, and more learning around sexuality and pleasure and women's sexuality in particular. Yeah. Amazing. Oh, Hallie, thank you so much for joining me today. You are an absolute treat. Thank you. This was so much fun. Thank you so much for having me. Like, it was great. I love your book as well. I have it. I read it. I cherish it.

Thank you. We should just get together and just talk dick somewhere over a cup of tea. But until then, thank you so much for joining me betwixt the sheets. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Hallie for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along whatever it is that you get your podcasts. If you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com.

We've got episodes on everything from the history of the boob job to medieval sex myths all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Stuart Beckwith and produced by Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets for History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.

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