302. Transdermal Testosterone Is NOT Suppressive!?
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Thank you for listening to the Boost Your Biology podcast. My name is Lucas Owen. I uncover the most cutting edge health information on the planet, ranging from hormones, nutrition, supplementation, fat loss, biohacking, longevity, wellness, and a whole lot more. Welcome to the Boost Your Biology podcast.

What is up ladies and gentlemen and welcome back to the Boost Your Biology podcast. Today I'm super excited because we'll be exploring

All things testosterone, DHT, PSSD, PFS, and overall hormone optimization. And I'm joined in with a very special guest who I've only recently just connected with. And a lot of my audience has been telling me to get this guy on the podcast. So joining me in the studio today, we have David from Alpha Gels. David, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, brother. Pleasure to be here.

Awesome. Awesome. So maybe David, I mean, your level of knowledge is profound. And so before we get into the technicalities of hormone optimization, supplementation, did you want to let us know a little bit about your story? How did you get so fascinated into, I guess, optimizing human health?

Yeah, so look, I've spent about the past decade basically obsessed with mal-hormone optimization, in particular DHT. So at the start, it was all about testosterone, but after delving a bit further into things, I realized DHT is really what most men actually want to yield from testosterone is actually coming from DHT. So that sort of shifted my focus into that area.

Countless years of actually experimenting with myself on this kind of stuff is really what sparked my interest after seeing results, basically. And your background in terms of, I mean, your level of knowledge is very, very advanced. I mean, I'd say so much more than your regular GP. Is it mostly self-taught or you've also got a pharmacy background? Yeah.

Yeah, so my background is in pharmacy, but look, a lot of this stuff, you can't actually learn it if you go by the book and, you know, what big pharma has actually prescribed with their agenda. So a lot of this stuff is actually self-taught and, well, self-experimented too. And so, I mean, like this DHT topic, I mean, this is definitely a...

It's a controversial one because most guys will associate DHT with prostate growth, hair loss, and the negative side effects of having high testosterone, the conversion. So maybe you want to sort of start out by just explaining to my audience, what is DHT and what are some of its clear functions in the human body? Yeah, definitely. So first of all, DHT is the primary component

You could call it the primary male androgen that's actually derived from testosterone through the 5-alpha reductase enzyme. It is about 5 to 10 times more potent and androgenic than testosterone in terms of its ability to bind to the androgen receptor. And the kind of effects that are commonly associated with testosterone, so other than the anabolic effects, first of all, I should say testosterone is more anabolic than DHT.

But when we talk about effects such as sexual, cognitive, also things such as strength, explosive power, these kinds of things, erectile function, libido, penile growth, beard growth, voice deepening, basically these masculinizing effects that men experience during puberty, they're actually completely governed by DHT. And a lot of guys, I mean, when it comes to DHT optimization, I guess...

Like most guys will probably think of maybe like creatine or caffeine, some of these things that can naturally, yeah, some herbal extracts. But you have really, I guess, like pioneered or sort of really explored the transdermal route of DHT application. So this is, do you want to first of all sort of explain that DHT cream, is that even available? Is it being sold anywhere in the world? What's that like?

So in terms of what's been available prescription-wise, there is one product that goes by the name of Andractum. I believe it's currently only available in select countries in Europe as a prescription. So what that formula is, is it's 2.5% concentration DHT in a hydroalcohol-based gel. So again, it is sufficient to boost your serum DHT levels up only because

We don't actually produce that much DHT. So even a low concentration like that will somewhat boost your levels. But for guys that are going for sort of localized effects, like they're after things like penile growth and things like that, or they might've had penile shrinkage from post-finasteride syndrome. Unfortunately, the absorption,

of that formula is pretty poor, especially when guys are using it in localized regions like that. So what we came up with as a solution to that is we made a much more concentrated formula. So it has both localized and systemic effects depending on how someone wanted to use it. - Yeah, so your particular formulation, did you wanna sort of break down the percentages, what that typically looks like? - Yeah, definitely. So what we have is a 10% strength and a 20% strength formula.

So what 10% is, is basically 100 milligrams per milliliter of DHT and 20% is 200 milligrams per milliliter of DHT. And so, I mean, a lot of guys, you know, a lot of guys suffering from low DHT without really understanding the hormone itself. I mean, both you and I have, you know, consulted a number of guys who've, they've either been on finasteride or they've been on some other natural DHT blockers.

And even after stopping, like many, many months after stopping, they're complaining about side effects. And now these side effects can range from emotion, like emotional dysfunction, low mood, low motivation, low libido, just generally not feeling like their usual self. In terms of the application of DHT as a transdermal method to boost DHT,

When you sort of discuss this with guys, what are you typically suggesting in terms of where to apply it, how often, and what they should look out for? Yeah, so first of all, in transdermal form, DHT has a pretty short half-life, so you do have to use it daily, definitely to keep stable blood levels going. Even if it is used once daily, from what I've seen in client blood work, levels are still significantly elevated above the natural reference range, even 24 hours after application.

Ideally to maintain the most stable levels I would recommend guys to apply it twice daily and specifically for applications such as say post finasteride syndrome I would recommend them to stack it with something such as low dose HCG simply to provide some of those raw materials for neurosteroid conversion which coupled with DHT since it does up regulate 5 alpha reductase which we know that it causes that positive feedback loop

They've got pregnenolone, DHEA, 5-alpha reductase starts getting upregulated, and that's what actually drives their neurosteroid conversion. So into things like allopregnenolone. Yeah, you were the first guy that sort of introduced me to the topic of like the HCG plus DHT combination. Do you want to sort of talk me through like, yeah, that particular protocol, what that would typically look like?

Yeah, so dosage-wise for HCG, a lot of guys are making the mistake of running it too high. Some of the actual clinical trials done using HCG for, say, fertility and things like that, people are looking at those and trying to go by that where they're using something like 5,000 or even 10,000 IUs a week. That is way too high. And actually, a lot of finasteride guys prior to coming to me have actually experimented with that. And majority of the times, it's actually made their symptoms a lot worse.

So it's massively driving estrogen conversion, upregulating intratesticular aromatase also, and potentially even desensitizing their Leydig cells to the LH signal over time if they do that for too long. So that's another concern of that. And most guys, what percentage of guys do you think who are on TRT, like injectable,

or let's say low-dose bodybuilding doses of let's say 250 milligrams of testosterone, cipionate or enanthate per week, what percentage of guys out there do you think are actually combining their testosterone with HCG? Not that many, to be honest. A lot of them are actually probably not getting the full benefits of TIT, especially in terms of cognitive function, simply by not including HCG in there.

Another way that they could go about this is using a low dose of DHEA and pregnenolone in conjunction with their TRT, which would bring me to another issue. A lot of guys that are injecting testosterone are actually not getting adequate DHT conversion from it.

As opposed to some of the guys that are using, say, a transcrotal testosterone cream, they're actually getting a lot better DHT conversion. And I've spoken to quite a few who have been with a certain clinic who ended up switching them over to a transcrotal cream from injections, and they're actually feeling a lot better. Sexual function improved massively. Cognition improved simply because the scrotum is very rich in 5-alpha reductase, the skin of the scrotum. So they were getting much more DHT conversion.

As opposed to with injectables. Yeah, that's something really cool because I've only heard that on a few podcasts. Some other health coaches mentioning the transcrotal application yielding more favorable effects in terms of libido and just general response. You've seen guys with blood work, right? They've managed to get their testosterone up.

up quite dramatically right like through scrotal application yeah yeah definitely so i mean on on our formula which which is 20 testosterone we've had we've had a client using two mils of that per day on the scrotum and his blood work showed levels of 5000 nanograms per deciliter slightly above that which is the highest that we've ever seen you know we can call him an outlier or whatever but

Quite often, we are seeing levels of 1,800 nanograms per deciliter from scrotal use of testosterone. Now, this is going to be interesting because a lot of guys will be thinking more is always better. But obviously, you understand as well that there's definitely a sweet spot for most guys.

What are you finding is like the sweet spot? Is it typically maybe like 900 to 1400? Like what does it typically look like, do you think? Yes, I would look at a couple of hormones when I'm actually trying to decide that. So first of all, different guys have different clearance rates of testosterone in their body. It doesn't mean because one guy applied 200 milligrams of testosterone scrotally, he's going to have identical levels to the next guy that does that. So I would gauge that with blood work. But yeah, typically...

i would want guys to look at their testosterone to dht ratio so let's say testosterone we're aiming for a level of 1200 nanograms per deciliter which is a good fair level and dht i would try and aim for a five to one ratio of testosterone to dht really for optimal anabolic effects first of all from the testosterone as well as optimal cognition and sexual function and that'll also keep at bay any kind of estrogen issues

That's a good point because I remember we sort of spoke about the fact that DHT can have, it basically can block the estrogen receptor. So do you want to sort of elaborate upon that? Yeah, so a lot of guys when they think of DHT, they think of it as,

as an aromatase inhibitor, which it does have aromatase inhibiting properties. But another interesting thing which it can actually do is bind, well, inhibit the binding of estrogen to the estrogen receptor. So you could call it like an estrogen receptor antagonist. And that's what makes it useful for things like treating gynecomastia. Yeah, that's a great, great point. I think a lot of guys out there are really looking for solutions as it pertains to

Just treating gyno, because a lot of them sort of end up resorting to like surgical and a lot of them don't want to go down that path. And some guys are doing the raloxifene cream as well. But, you know, you're saying, are you saying the DHT actual application to the nipple itself? Yeah, so it doesn't have to be directly on the nipple, but sort of around that region.

There's been quite a few clinical trials actually done while using both injectable DHT, which is hardly available these days, as well as transdermal DHT. And they found that in more than 75% of patients that were using this, and mind you, we're talking longstanding gynecomastia. We're not talking about gynecomastia that has just appeared mid-cycle while someone was running massive doses of testosterone. So this has been longstanding hard fibrous tissue therapy

In a period of anywhere from like three to four months, they were able to have a significant regression in that gynecomastia by applying DHT locally to the chest. That's incredible. Yeah, because I guess another really interesting point that you mentioned to me and I was just blown away, David, is...

This whole idea of like what truly causes suppression of natural production, because obviously I'm all about a lot of the guys that I coach and consult are the guys that have either been on TRT and they want to come off it and they want a more natural sort of protocol. And then you've sort of discussed the fact that suppression of endogenous production is usually mediated by the half-life of the testosterone that's being produced.

used exogenously. So did you want to sort of explain that to my audience, what you found through clients and also blood work? Yeah, so I've actually seen a ton of client blood work on our products. So first of all, from what I've seen, typically when guys are coming off injectable testosterone, say they weren't using any kind of PCT protocol, it could take anywhere from

three to four months for their natural testosterone production to come back to where it originally was post cycle. So this is on long ester injectable testosterone, enanthate, cypionate. On transdermal, on the other hand, I've seen blood work 72 hours after the cycle is completed and seen blood work levels on par with what they originally were pre-cycle. So significant difference there.

Yeah, you also mentioned you look at LH as a marker of suppression. Do you want to sort of explain that to my audience? Yeah, so during the cycle from what I've seen on transdermal T, LH is suppressed, of course, and it is proportionate to how much they're actually using.

But as opposed to injectable testosterone where LH is basically going to zero, I've seen on transdermal testosterone, guys will be having levels sitting at, you know, 1200 nanograms per deciliter and their LH mid-cycle will be still sitting around 1, 1.2, which shows that it's not completely shut down. So there still is some active testosterone production actually going on. And this is without guys using anything like enclomophene during the cycle or anything like that. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that was going to be my next point, which is like the hot topic at the moment. I just had another doctor sort of come on the podcast talking about even really low dose N-clomiphene, like 6.25 or 6, really low dose 6.25 or 12 milligrams of N-clomiphene, just maintaining testicular sort of functioning and also maintaining testosterone production. Before we get into that discussion around N-clomiphene, I want to sort of

I want to understand this transdermal testosterone. Did you want to sort of talk about maybe like a hypothetical scenario for a guy that maybe wants to dabble with testosterone, doesn't want to inject? A lot of guys would prefer not to inject, but they would like to see what testosterone feels like through this transdermal route. What theoretically might a guy consider if he's wanting to like dabble with it without suppressing his production?

Yeah, that's a good question. So if his main concern is actually suppression, first of all, I would tell him to apply it once per day rather than twice per day.

Simply because due to the short half-life, the second portion of that day, a lot of it is going to be cleared. His levels will start to drop, say, like into the evening. So what I'd recommend him to do is pre-workout to apply something like 1 ml transdermally of 20% testosterone. So that does kick in pretty quickly within an hour. His levels will be nice and elevated. So he'll definitely experience those benefits going into a workout.

Also, he's going to experience some of that extra aggression from the testosterone too, what he applied. More focus during his workout, better pumps, things like that, more explosive strength. And then during the second portion of the day, that's slowly going to clear. Say he was applying it in the morning, quite similar to our natural testosterone production. It'll taper off as we go into the evening and he will still have luteinizing hormone activity active during that kind of a cycle.

And would you, because a lot of these guys, they could then also amplify the effects if they did one mil transdermally about one hour before their workout. Let's say they train fasted. So they wake up, let's say 6.30am, they apply this one mil transdermally. Is there a particular part of the body that you'd suggest applying it to?

Yeah, so in terms of absorption, the scrotum is always going to give the best absorption and the best DHT conversion. If someone doesn't want to apply to the scrotum, other areas which I would recommend is the navel as well as the inner forearms. These areas have fairly thin skin and will provide decent transdermal absorption. And so in terms of the peripheral subjective experience, for a guy that's never used testosterone or any other sort of pro-hormones or things like that,

If he used one mil transdemily an hour before his workout, what are some of the subjective benefits he might notice during that workout? Definitely more energy, more aggression, focus, better pumps while he's working out. If he's applying a bit of DHT together with it, he could potentially notice some increased vascularity also during his workout. It has a nice cosmetic benefit as well as in terms of muscle hardness.

Yeah, no, there's definitely highly appealing benefits for a lot of guys in terms of like, I mean, you look at the energy that a hormone provides versus like an energy that like a caffeine provides. One's working on like that CNS, adenosine receptor blockade. The other one's working on like testosterone, which then has like primal effects on the body, right? The biological effects of testosterone make men like just act more like men.

And then you're going to have that acceleration of muscle protein synthesis, which hypothetically should also enhance recovery following that workout as well, right? Yeah, that's definitely something guys notice when they say jump on TRT after having low levels of natural testosterone for a while.

In between sessions, they're recovering much faster. Suddenly, they're able to hit muscle groups throughout the week with a much greater frequency and still recover. Even their recovery between sets is actually better. If we're doing, let's say, one mil transdermally of that 20% testosterone, hardly any guys would need anything to lower the conversion of testosterone to estrogen, right? There's no need to.

to stop that pathway. Is that correct? Yeah, that's correct. So I wouldn't recommend someone to go and use an AI in conjunction with that, obviously, unless they've done blood work and see that

for whatever reason they're having elevated estrogen. Some people might have extremely high body fat, for example, so they'd be much more prone to aromatization. If someone's also got, say, liver issues and things like that, obviously that makes them prone to having high estrogen conversion. But typically for the average healthy guy, using 200 milligrams of testosterone transdermally will give him a decent amount of DHT conversion, which will also help keep his estradiol in check.

I guess some of the other performance-enhancing effects of testosterone that a lot of guys, I guess, forget about is the impact on erythropoiesis. So did you want to sort of talk about is it testosterone and DHT both have a stimulatory effect on increasing red blood cell count? Yes, so they both do.

Although when it comes to injectable testosterone, so mega dosing injectable testosterone, we're talking 500 milligrams a week or even something like 300 milligrams a week, which some guys are using as sort of a long-term cruise or TRT protocol, you can call it, will in fact increase red blood cell count beyond the reference range over time, causing them to need to donate blood and things like that. But what we've typically seen with transdermal testosterone is that doesn't happen.

So they're not getting as much EPO stimulation through the transdermal. Do you think that's related to the half-life or the pharmacokinetics, how it's metabolized? I think it is relevant to the half-life. Yeah, but typically from what I've seen in blood work, I've almost never seen that elevated from transdermal testosterone and DHT. Whereas with some guys, I was going to say, sorry, with some guys even running TRT at like 200 milligrams per

the wake of cytosol strain and enzyme after a while i actually do say that start to creep up

Yeah, I had a patient last week who's doing... I had to recommend to him to... He's currently on testosterone. He's been on it for a while. He's taking big doses. I'd say 500 milligrams is a big dose, in my opinion, obviously. Especially long-term, yeah. Yeah, and so his HCT, red blood cell count, all of that was starting to get elevated. And I said to him, you need to go donate blood because...

Yeah, it does increase the risk of blood clots and things like that. But I mean, if I had to do like a head-to-head comparison, if we were to compare the subjective effects of transdermal testosterone versus a transdermal DHT pre-workout, a guy's still getting a beneficial effect from the DHT pre-workout. And in addition to that, is it true in saying that

If a guy were to use just transdermal DHT, that would not lead to any suppression. Is that correct? So if he's using... First of all, transdermal DHT is less suppressive to natural testosterone than transdermal testosterone is, simply because it doesn't convert to estrogen. And particularly in a guy which already had elevated estrogen levels, potentially...

He could even get a slight rise in luteinizing hormone for a short period of time when he starts using DHT if it is in low dosages, simply by controlling some of that estrogen conversion. Mind you, he's still going to get some suppression of luteinizing hormone after a period of time, specifically if he's upping that dosage. But if he's keeping the dosage below something like 25 milligrams per day transdermally, he would see next to no suppression of natural testosterone production while using DHT.

Is it likely that he would notice any changes in prolactin, thyroid, estrogen, or progesterone? Have you seen any data points from that? Yeah, definitely. From what I've seen, DHT is decreasing prolactin. In most guys, it's decreasing estrogen, and it is increasing 3T3 levels. It has a beneficial effect on thyroid function.

That's really cool because I think a lot of guys, and I'm sure you've seen shitloads of blood test results over the years where a lot of guys actually have suboptimal T3, free T3, and they're complaining of all these symptoms of like low testosterone. But actually, sometimes it actually might be related to the fact that their free T3 just isn't quite where it should be. So did you want to sort of elaborate upon that?

Yeah, definitely. So a lot of guys, and this goes for the post-finasteride patients too, having low free T3 can actually even affect things like DHT conversion. T3 actually governs 5-alpha reductase. They have a proportionate relationship with each other. And from what I've seen, guys, on post-finasteride syndrome patients, quite commonly having low free T3 and elevated reverse T3, which is actually blocking the uptake of T3 into the thyroid cell receptors,

That's crazy. Yeah, that's actually a good point. You're mentioning there's a proportionate ratio between free T3 and DHT production. Because if I think about the guys that I've spoken to in the past that have good energy, good libido, good well-being, they're the guys that have high free T3. But I haven't always looked at their DHT production.

But if you're saying there's a strong correlation between free T3 and DHT, that's an interesting connection there. Yeah, definitely. There's even a link between thyroid function and androgen receptor sensitivity. So that's another interesting one that a lot of guys are overlooking. What are you sort of discovering there? Is it basically the better the person's thyroid output is,

the more androgen receptors they sort of upregulate androgen receptor density? Also the sensitivity and expression of androgen receptors. So the ability of androgens to actually be expressed once they reach the cell receptor. Well, in terms of methods to raise free T3, like if you're looking at sort of working with a guy, what are your go-tos to max out that free T3 portion?

So first of all, I'd get him to do a comprehensive blood panel to see what the issue is. First of all, is there an issue of T4 to T3 conversion going on? A lot of the times, if that is the issue, I would look into his micronutrient intake. So minerals, things like zinc, magnesium, selenium, iodine.

Vitamin D3, not getting enough of those could potentially be inhibiting someone's T4 to T3 conversion. So he might not have any issues with actual thyroid hormone synthesis. He's producing enough T4. The main issue in a lot of guys is actually just the conversion into T3. So what I'll do is I'll change their diet completely, optimize micronutrient intake, get them to eat things like oysters, liver a couple of times a week just to up their micronutrient intake.

If someone's having, say, high reverse T3, then I would put them on a short course of exogenous T3 for a period of time because that seems to actually clear it up and allow free T3 to again be accepted by thyroid cell receptors. That's a new protocol that I've sort of never heard of, which is like you're saying if a patient has high reverse T3,

that you'll end up putting them on exogenous T3. Is it just exogenous T3 by itself or with T4? No, I'll just use exogenous T3 by itself. So in a lot of these guys actually adding exogenous T4 will actually make the issue worse and drive up that reverse T3 even further.

And that's the issue. Some of these guys, which might have thyroid issues, they'll go to their doctor and the doctor will put them on exogenous T4 on its own. And suddenly their reverse T3 is just going massively elevated. Their hypothyroid symptoms are getting much, much worse. It's just crazy, man. Like to think that they don't actually prescribe exogenous T3. Is that correct in Australia? Very rarely, to be honest. A lot of the times, or 95% of the times, it's exogenous T4 that's given.

It's like standard and a lot of the times I've even seen they're not even testing free T3 in blood work.

they're just testing tsh and you know tsh might be sitting at like four or something and a lot of the times the doctor will say you're completely fine it's okay as long as it doesn't go above five so the reference ranges is another thing which is absolutely absurd yeah i mean i think it's i mean i've spoken about the fact that tsh should be i mean i've got my own ideal reference range you might have something similar but it's typically

anywhere between like 0.75 to about 1.5 that's typically where i like to see it you might be similar yeah no i can agree with that and then it's like with the free t3 though like even after this many years surely the medical system has understood the fact that t3 is the active hormone not t4 so why are we still prescribing t4 i

Yeah, it's nuts, man. And which brings me to another thing when it comes to reference ranges, guys that are trying to get on TIT and actually get that from their doctor, their levels might be sitting at, if we're talking American reference ranges, 300 milligrams per deciliter. And a lot of the times the doctor will send them back and say, look, your levels are completely fine. This is all in your head. Here, just take some SSRIs. They'll fix the problem for you.

These are young men in their 20s, some of them 19, 18. This is what happens as well. They end up going down that pathway, which is like, let's say they go on the medication, they never really address the low testosterone. And then we see them suffering from all these side effects of the SSRIs, which, I mean, we can have a pretty extensive conversation around the fact that

Serotonin is negatively correlated with testosterone, and I'm sure you've also spoken about that. Dopamine, on the other hand, is positively associated with higher testosterone and lower prolactin.

And I'd imagine a lot of the guys that you're also consulting are wanting to feel like they can wake up with a lot of energy, have a lot of motivation, have spare energy to then come home after work and be able to train and do things. And they're not going to achieve that if they have high serotonin. 100%. Yeah, SSRIs are essentially turning them into zombies. A good friend, Georgie Dinkov, mentioned that on the Ray P forum. Yeah.

That's exactly what's happening, man. So SSRIs are turning them into zombies. Finasteride is castrating them. Yep. And that's, I mean, that's one of the reasons why I was adamant on releasing, you know, the cat's wabba as a dopamine optimizing herb. I mean, shilajit, tonkara li, you know, fedosia agrestis has been pretty popular and also tribulus as well. And a lot of these herbs actually have dopaminergic effects, but

I really do think that Catuaba, and you could also attest to this, is that Catuaba is very selective for raising dopamine as well. Yeah, I think Catuaba is going to be a big one, especially for some of these PFS and PSSD patients. Once we get enough guys to actually try that and to report the effects on it, which I am encouraging a lot of guys to actually try it now, it'll be good. We'll have a lot of data to go by. I'll also be pretty fascinated...

I know, man. And I haven't actually, I haven't collected enough data yet, but I would imagine it might have a suppressive effect on prolactin. I haven't actually seen blood work, but maybe if you have any patients that have high prolactin before and after using Catuaba, it'd be interesting to see if it actually drops the prolactin like Mercuna. Yeah, that'll be an interesting one. Given that it is dopaminergic, you'd expect that inverse relationship with prolactin.

So let's sort of, I mean, you know so much about other hormones as well. I mean, cortisol, so the cortisol picture, do you want to sort of discuss a little bit about that? I mean, that's a hormone that I guess most guys do understand that it's a stress hormone. Did you want to sort of talk about its implications with maybe estrogen, how it may affect testosterone and DHT? Yeah, yeah, definitely. So first of all, having excess cortisol,

will actually upregulate aromatization. It can also lead to things like stubborn fat gain in areas such as the belly. It can also increase things like muscle catabolism. So definitely a lot of guys are having issues with cortisol simply because their circadian rhythm is not aligned.

So you do want that natural cortisol spike obviously to happen in the morning and for that to taper off as you go into the evening. And this brings me to the next point. A lot of guys are scared of having, for example, carbs before bed where there's actually the time where they should be consuming some carbohydrates to help bring down some of that cortisol. And another big crime that I see a lot of guys doing is having coffee on an empty stomach in the morning immediately upon waking up. That's a great way to skyrocket cortisol.

So another interesting thing is DHT actually keeps cortisol in check. That's a really cool pathway. So you're saying DHT helps to have like a suppressive effect on cortisol production? Yeah, well, it prevents the accumulation of cortisol. So definitely it's a very important anti, you could call it an anti-stress hormone also. Could that explain some of its potential fat loss promoting effects, DHT?

Potentially, yeah. Some of that could be related to cortisol inhibition. I mean, a lot of it is to do with its ability to bind to the androgen receptor so strongly, but cortisol inhibition is another one. Keeping estrogen in check is potentially another mechanism as well as upregulating thyroid function. Because I've seen some animal studies looking at how DHT can upregulate lipolysis as well, similar to caffeine.

Which is pretty cool. What about, I mean, there's actually a really, do you want to talk about this really interesting study where they actually used DHT to shrink or reduce the prostate size? Yeah, yeah. That's an interesting one. So-

For so long, we've been fed this bullshit that DHT is the cause of prostate cancer. It's the cause of hair loss. And it's actually quite the opposite. When it comes to prostate cancer, they've actually found estrogen and prolactin is what's actually driving that. And using DHT, so even applying it transdermally to the outer area around the prostate region,

can actually help to shrink enlarged prostates and reverse prostate cancer long-term. So in guys that are getting older, having optimal DHT levels will actually prevent them from having prostate cancer and potentially even reverse existing issues that they have in the early stages. Yeah, that's definitely an interesting one because a lot of guys, I mean, like when it comes to hair loss,

How do we explain the fact that some guys respond well to finasteride to slow down their hair loss if DHT is not? Yeah, do you want to sort of explain that? Yeah, so look, finasteride in its structure is somewhat similar to progesterone, interestingly. And some guys are having a response to finasteride in terms of slowing down their hair loss. A lot of guys are actually not getting back a full head of hair.

So they might have a slight reduction in hair loss and then it'll come with this whole host of negative side effects to the point that they'll just end up stopping it. And the whole experiment itself wasn't worth it in the end because they're essentially left in a position which was much worse than where they originally were. They no longer care about their hair, but they've got all these sexual and cognitive symptoms going on now where they completely regret that decision in the first place.

But yeah, there definitely is more at play when it comes to hair loss than just DHT, especially if we're talking serum DHT levels in the body. So you're circulating DHT blood levels. The correlation with hair loss is, from what I've seen at least, if I'm looking at blood work results from some of my clients having super physiological DHT levels and reporting absolutely zero hair loss,

In fact, I've not yet come across a single guy who has used transdermal DHT and has reported an acceleration in hair loss. I mean, that's like as direct evidence as you could get, really. I mean, like you're literally using the hormone that people are saying is the cause of hair loss. And you're literally seeing patients using DHT and not even experiencing hair loss as a side effect.

Correct. And boosting it to, we're talking, you know, 10 to 15 times the reference range. So, you know, sitting at levels of like 1200 nanograms per deciliter of DHT, which we all know what the DHT reference ranges are. So no hair loss whatsoever at those kinds of levels. What about as it pertains to beard growth? I mean, did you want to sort of, I know a lot of guys, I've had a lot of guys message me

what can they use to accelerate beard growth? Have you seen any potential applications for DHT? - Yeah, definitely. So guys that are having, first of all, low serum DHT levels, using DHT exogenously will definitely increase things like beard growth and beard density.

specifically these guys that have had issues throughout puberty where they didn't actually reach their full potential or develop how they actually should have due to hormonal issues, these guys will probably get the greatest benefit from it. But even just for the average guy that is having suboptimal to average levels of DHT, he can definitely gain some additional beard growth and density over time. It won't happen overnight, but over a couple of weeks to months of use of DHT definitely.

Do you feel like in the next three to five years, David, that more and more guys will start to understand the importance of DHT? And do you think that there'll be more, I guess, like DHT-related products being manufactured? Do you think that'll start picking up over the next three to five years or do you feel like it's going in the other direction? I think more guys are gaining awareness on DHT, especially on places like X, Instagram, Twitter.

The community is actually spreading a lot of good information on that. But in terms of traditional medicine, I don't see that developing too far in the next five years. I see them definitely continuing their war on DHT and war on masculinity. Yeah. And in terms of like, I mean, a lot of guys when they're wanting to boost testosterone, we sort of ask them like, you know, what are some of the effects you're hoping to achieve? And

A lot of the time, it actually comes down to guys wanting more confidence. And what you're sort of alluding to is that DHT is the hormone of confidence in men. So did you want to sort of talk about maybe what you've noticed with patients? Have they mentioned changes in their personality, changes like that?

yeah definitely so a lot of guys are saying since they started using dht first of all some are saying they've stopped using ssris and they've found they're actually getting a much more significant benefit from dht in terms of anti-anxiety and antidepressant type of effects definitely increased confidence that's another one that we hear of a lot makes sense and that's because i'd imagine dht has a positive effect on

this allopregnenolone and the allopregnenolone has a GABA potentiating action. Yes, that's where some of those anti-anxiety effects are coming from. Yes, because guys will drink alcohol, for example, and the reason why they feel more confident is not because it's boosting testosterone. It's because it's actually raising GABA. GABA, correct.

But then they feel like shit the next day because they're intoxicating their entire body, their liver and things like that when they could actually achieve that true level of confidence by using DHT. Yeah, and mind you, that effect from alcohol starts to diminish greatly once they surpass a certain number of drinks anyway. So acutely, it does have some benefits, but...

But throughout the course of the night, it will actually get worse as things go on. Yeah. Before you mentioned something important, which was carbohydrate intake before bedtime and lowering cortisol. This has been something that I've also encouraged a lot of guys and something that I do myself, like Greek yogurt late at night or a bit of oats, honey, berries, things like that. Then you want to sort of play into that picture. If guys go low-carb,

then their free T3 will take a hit as well. Yeah, that's another interesting thing. And this is the problem for a lot of the carnivore bros that are doing this long-term. No issue if they want to do it for something like four weeks as part of an elimination diet to reduce inflammation in their gut or various things like that. But long-term, doing this for two, three, four, or even more months will actually start to significantly impact their

T4 to T3 conversion and you see a lot of them having issues over time. Some of them even complaining of things like hair loss, skin issues and stuff like that and it all comes down to their thyroid function being suppressed. And mind you, DHT, carbohydrates are also important for DHT conversion. Yeah, is that because, is it insulin that upregulates 5-AR? Yeah, that's correct.

Yeah. Another thing is also SHBG tends to rise also when you go low carb. So that's another issue for a lot of the carnivore guys. You start seeing SHBG levels of 50 to 60. Well, actually, I'm glad you brought that up because in terms of outside-the-box methods to suppress SHBG,

Is it true that any exogenous androgen, including DHT, will lower SHBG? Or is DHT excluded from that? No, absolutely. So any exogenous androgen, even using testosterone exogenously, will lower SHBG. But in particular, DHT-based steroids, whether it's oral ones like proviron, even using transdermal DHT will quite significantly inhibit SHBG.

If you look up Winstroll, there's some pretty interesting studies on how that absolutely nuked SHBG, like in a couple of days. And these guys that are using Winstroll, initially, what are some of the implications of that if they're sort of nuking? Do you think most guys even know that as a fact about Winstroll when they're using that?

Potentially not. No. So some of the guys that are using that could even potentially run into estrogen issues. So if they're using massive doses of injectable testosterone on the side and suddenly their SHBG gets completely slashed, they've got all this free testosterone circulating around which can now aromatize and

Suddenly they run into all these estrogen issues and they're like, what's going on? I'm using a DHT derivative. I don't think I'm using that much testosterone, not more than I used to use in the past. Suddenly I've got all these estrogen issues. That's where it's actually coming from, their SHBG being nuked. Yeah, that takes a lot of technical understanding from guys. Let's say they're currently taking testosterone and they're adding the stanozolol. Is that stanozolol? That's Winstrol? Yeah, stanozol. Yeah, stanozol, sorry. They're adding that in.

And then they're getting these estrogenic effects. But isn't Winstroll technically like a DHT? It's a DHT derivative? It is a DHT derivative. So it can't aromatize directly, but it's more so what they're actually using with it. It's actually potentiating it. So for example, if they're using 500 milligrams of testosterone,

and say they previously had high SHBG, they're using 500 milligrams of testosterone, something they throw in Winstrol, they've got all this free testosterone now circulating. If they're not keeping the estrogen under control, they can potentially run into some issues there. Now, do you think a lot of guys, in terms of the fluctuations of these hormones, I mean, if things happen within, let's say a guy dramatically lowers estrogen within a 24-hour period, do you think it's that immediate effect

jump from like, let's say 150 estrogen down to like, I don't know, 90 or something. Do you think guys subjectively can feel

these massive changes or are some guys pretty sensitive to even micro changes like maybe 10 points 15 points things like that some guys that are particularly sensitive to things like gyno even even quite small changes in in estrogen and elevations in dht can make the difference between you know them having sore swollen nips versus them having completely normal nipples so

That's another thing to consider. Some of the guys are sort of sitting on that borderline that they might be so gyno-prone that even another 50 milligrams of testosterone a week could push them over the edge there. How does growth hormone fit into the picture as it pertains to an anabolic stack? Do you think that GH itself has a good utility for eliciting an androgenic effect or helping with muscle growth? How do you see GH fitting into the picture?

Yeah, so GH definitely can help you, particularly when it's used in conjunction with androgens. So first of all, it's upregulating IGF-1 that happens in the liver. And IGF-1 is actually responsible for hyperplasia, so the creation of new muscle cells as opposed to hypertrophy, which is growing those existing muscle cells. So when you're using androgens in combination with something like IGF-1, that's where you're going to get the most explosive muscle growth. Things where guys, for example...

Felt there was limitations no matter how hard they trained or how much androgens they took, they couldn't get, you know, shoulders that were rounded a certain way or something like that because of genetic limitations. Increasing IGF-1 actually helps them push through that plateau.

I guess the only downside of exogenous GH is the prolactin spike. Have you seen that actually happen on blood work? I haven't actually seen it too often, to be honest, the prolactin spike. But on paper, there is some data that suggests that could happen. I have actually seen it, believe it or not, from MK677. I've seen a few guys actually having elevated prolactin from that. I think that's also one of the potential suppressive effects on testosterone, right?

With the MK, I know there's not a lot of research on that, but I have seen some guys using MK and notice a slight decrease in total testosterone. Their free testosterone stayed the same, but their total testosterone has dropped. Yeah, I've even heard of libido issues on MK. I've had a couple of guys come in to me saying, you know, my libido has decreased ever since I got on it. I've even had someone complaining of gyno on it.

um another thing to consider is potentially the source where they're getting this stuff from could have potentially been laced it could have been laced with something else that's that's another consideration considering the purity of psalms you've got to be careful where you're actually getting them from what about um complementary like i mean obviously supplements you would be a big fan of certain supplements certain vitamins magnesiums things like that what are some like

critical ones that you often see yourself prescribing quite a lot like are there certain minerals i know you mentioned zinc magnesium iodine um are there taurine any amino acids things like that are you sort of a big fan of any of these

Yeah, definitely. So first of all, when it comes to supplements, particularly micronutrients, I like to focus on whole foods as the main source for those. So getting it in the most bioavailable source, which is always going to be through food. So things like, instead of telling guys to take zinc supplements, I'll tell them to eat oysters and grass-fed beef and things like that. But other ones which are much harder to get from food, so things like magnesium, I definitely recommend guys using things like magnesium glycinate, magnesium taurate,

Amino acids, I'm a big fan of creatine, taurine, glycine. I definitely also recommend guys take things like beef collagen and gelatin, drinking bone broth, just to balance their amino acid ratios. Also, if they're eating too much muscle meat, they're not getting enough of things like glycine, for example. So I'll tell guys to supplement that on the side. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. And also, I guess like some of these other amino acids can have

complementary effects with any sort of androgenic boosting protocol purely due to the fact that a lot of these actually have anti-cortisol effects like lysine and taurine. They definitely have some pretty potent anti-cortisol effects and so does like magnesium. And then you mentioned tribulus. Where have you deployed tribulus in the past?

So tribulus, a lot of the post-fenasteride guys seem to benefit from using tribulus. So it is dopaminergic. It is antiprolactin. It is potentially increasing neuroandrogen receptors. That's another thing. Not human studies done on it, but there is some data suggesting that it does have beneficial effects on androgen receptors. And guys are reporting...

nice cognitive benefits from it. Potentially even some guys are reporting sexual benefits too who are having post-finasteride syndrome. So with Tribulus, important thing is the source that you actually use. It needs to be standardized for protodiosin. You can't just get any kind of cheap Tribulus product that's out there on the market and expect it to provide the same benefits as a properly standardized product.

That's a big one when it comes to herbal supplements. I studied naturopathy, so obviously I understand herbal medicines pretty well. They can definitely differ in their quality dramatically. I've tried many different types of herbal extracts over the years and without a doubt, they're not all created equal. Some are more potent. Some you need a lower dosage. Some you need a higher dosage.

Some of them take like three to five days actually notice an effect. Others, you'll feel it within the first day. So yeah, that's actually one of the major reasons why we wanted to, when we released this Catwa Pure, we wanted to actually make sure that we, it took nine months to find a quality vendor. We went through so many different suppliers and none of them even passed the third-party HPTLC assessment.

So it just took a long time to find a good quality extract. But once you find one, it's well and truly worth it. Yeah, 100%. And you also want, of course, to be clear of things like heavy metals. That's another huge issue in the supplement industry. A lot of supplements being contaminated with heavy metals. A lot of the raw powders could be coming from, say, China or places like that. So that's another thing for guys to be careful of.

Yeah, there's definitely, look, I'm excited that we've had a chance to chat about like definitely DHT pathway. You're a big proponent on optimizing DHT, even sometimes taking it beyond that reference range to yield like favorable effects on male cognition, androgenicity and testosterone sort of related effects. Yeah.

so if if my guys want to um obviously connect with you david at alpha gels um where can they connect with you yeah so they can find our public x page so go on x or twitter as some guys know it search up alpha gels and they can drop us a dm there and we can let them know what the next steps are awesome i'll make sure to leave that linked in the in the podcast show notes um this may be the

the first podcast, but I reckon there'll be a few more in the pipeline, David. So, um, a hundred percent brother, which definitely do this again. Yeah, no pleasure chatting. And, um, thanks for coming on, sharing your wisdom and knowledge. This has been an important subject, um, particularly heading to heading into the new year. There's probably a lot of guys out there looking to optimize their stack and refine their protocols. Um, so yeah, appreciate you coming on and, um, thanks for, thanks for making the appearance.

Definitely, brother. I appreciate the opportunity. And here's to an androgenic 2025. I love it. I love it. Thank you guys for tuning in. If you did enjoy today's podcast, please do leave a five-star review and leave a review as well down below. And as always, if you haven't always checked out my new supplement, Katwa Pure, you can check that out by visiting inbeforesups.com.

Thank you guys for tuning in. I look forward to seeing you in the next episode.

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