3/13/25: Trump Border Czar Says Free Speech Has Limits, Gavin Newsom Interviews Steve Bannon, Southwest Ends Free Bags
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Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breakingpoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our

full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at BreakingPoints.com. So we've got some updates for you guys with regard to Mahmoud Khalil. He is that green card holder and student activist who has been detained, and they are attempting to, the Trump administration is attempting to deport. So let's go ahead and start with this. Comments from Tom Homan, who was in Albany, New York,

to speak on exactly this issue and sounding a bit of a different note on free speech than the Trump campaign certainly did when he was campaigning and notably J.D. Vance did when he was over in Europe. Let's take a listen to that. Free speech has limitations, but when you go to a college campus, you incite protesting and locking down and taking over buildings and damaging property and handing out leaflets for Hamas, who is a terrorist organization,

Coming to this country either on a visa or becoming a resident alien is a great privilege. But there are rules associated with that. So again, I think it's really important to remind people that Mahmoud Khalil has not been accused of a crime. The justification they're using for the stripping of his green card status and potential deportation is that Marco Rubio determined—

that he was a threat to our national security priority of combating anti-Semitism. We also have some more details about Khalil himself that we'll get to in a moment. In particular, you notice the charges against him are always very vague. He's like affiliated with this literature that, by the way, we haven't been able to allowed to see. He said things that we're supposed to assume are anti-Semitic. There's been very little specifics about

of what he's done or what he said that is so egregious that he no longer exists in this country. So keep that in mind as well. Let me go ahead and play Secretary of State Marco Rubio also giving his justification, sounding some similar notes to Tom Homan. Let's take a listen. When you come to the United States as a visitor, which is what a visa is, which is how this individual entered this country, on a visitor's visa, you are here as a visitor. We can deny you that visa.

We can deny you that if you tell us when you apply, "Hi, I'm trying to get into the United States on a student visa. I am a big supporter of Hamas, a murderous, barbaric group that kidnaps children, that rapes teenage girls, that takes hostages, that allows them to die in captivity, that returns more bodies than live hostages." If you tell us that you are in favor of a group like this,

And if you tell us when you apply for your visa, and by the way, I intend to come to your country as a student and rile up all kinds of anti-Jewish student, anti-Semitic activities. I intend to shut down your universities. If you told us all these things when you applied for a visa, we would deny your visa. I hope we would. If you actually end up doing that once you're in this country on such a visa, we will revoke it.

And if you end up having a green card, not citizenship, but a green card as a result of that visa while you're here in those activities, we're gonna kick you out. It's as simple as that. This is not about free speech. This is about people that don't have a right to be in the United States to begin with. No one has a right to a student visa. No one has a right to a green card, by the way. So when you apply for a student visa,

or any visa to enter the United States, we have a right to deny you for virtually any reason. But I think being a supporter of Hamas and coming into our universities and turning them upside down and being complicit in what are clearly crimes of vandalization, complicit in shutting down learning institutions. There are kids at these schools that can't go to class.

You pay all this money to these high-priced schools that are supposed to be of great esteem, and you can't even go to class. You're afraid to go to class because these lunatics are running around with covers on their face, screaming terrifying things. If you told us that's what you intended to do when you came to America, we would have never let you in. And if you do it once you get in, we're going to revoke it and kick you out.

So a few things to note there. So he says he's a quote unquote big supporter of Hamas. You know, it seems like they just assume anyone who is like pro-Palestine and has a critique of either the Israeli government or our government support of the Israeli government, they just label as pro-Hamas. But if we could put D6 up on the screen, Ryan drops like they've been doing some digging into, OK, like what is

this guy actually say and what was he all about? One of the things that you hear repeatedly on like right wing influencer accounts and people like Scott Jennings, et cetera, is that he called for the quote unquote total eradication of Western civilization.

Now, even if he did, I would say, hey, protected speech, that is vastly different from saying I'm a Hamas supporter or even further, which again, I think would be protected speech. But there's no allegation he like provided material support for Hamas or any other terrorist quote unquote organization. But let's just parse the claim that he even is the person who said this total eradication of Western civilization thing. Apparently, they're getting that from an Instagram post that

from a group that he was loosely affiliated with that he had nothing to do with this Instagram post and may not have even have seen. So I want you to think about that. The government is using, in part, a post that he was tangentially linked to that he potentially had no even knowledge of.

to justify detaining him. He's now been flown down to Louisiana and held indefinitely there, and stripping him of his permanent resident status and potentially deporting him. That is incredibly wild. And you may think this will never apply to you and it's all fine and good, et cetera, but we have seen far too, I mean, the whole trajectory of post 9-11 and the war on terror, et cetera, has been going step by step by step,

taking away more and more and more civil liberties and expanding and expanding the police and surveillance state. And this is a dramatic jump on that trajectory. Yeah, that's the thing about what Ruby always keeps saying. It's like, yeah, no one's saying that you can't do it. It's whether should you do it and for what purpose? That's the question that I really have around this is why are the guy didn't commit a crime.

Yeah, he's the leader of a group which some people didn't like. Okay. You know, there's a lot of groups, a lot of leaders that I don't like that I'm sure here are on student visas too. Are they all going to get kicked out? If you're the leader of the IDF soldier, you know, whatever, former IDF soldiers on UCLA campus, that's good to go.

What are we doing here? That's the big issue that I really have with not only the precedent of deportation and really the invocation of the INS Act against this person because we have to remember he's saying it's a serious detriment to our foreign policy.

What does that mean? That his presence here is a serious detriment to our foreign policy with Israel? What, Israel's going to cut off relations with us over a campus protester in the United States of America? Well, they're specifically saying we have a foreign policy priority of combating anti-Semitism. Okay, so first of all, I don't even know if that's true. But second, let's assume that it is true. What definition? Oh, the definition which conflates any criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. The whole thing is preposterous. And that's where the big problem that it all comes back

to is that we are having a debate here about somebody who was here protesting the actions of a foreign government. That, I mean, even if you look back to the Patriot Act era-

At least then we were demonizing each other over the actions of our government. This is something so contrary to any of those ideals of even many of the like criticisms or whatever that they've made about free speech overreach in the past.

And just basic to the notion of anything that's supposed to be America first. But I do have bad news. I mean, to be honest, the government has good standing. I mean, there is the basic truth here is you can revoke the visa of whoever you want. But that's not the point is not can you? It's should you and for what purpose? And I mean, why? This is why I can't get around either. Who picked this guy as the first one? Wouldn't you pick somebody who was in Hamilton Hall or whatever, you know, like breaking windows? There's no argument on that.

It's like, yeah, you committed a crime here, bro. You got to go. But for the rest of them, like deporting a, quote, student leader who has committed no actual crime, been charged with nothing, basically four statements, it's like where did this name get plucked and who decided that this was the ground? I actually cannot think of a worse one. Because first you would pick a student visa, wouldn't you? And then you would not a green card holder. Yeah, which I think they thought.

He was here on just a student visa and they didn't check. So first they pick somebody who was on a green card, not a student visa. Then they pick somebody who didn't commit a crime. It's like you would ideally, if you wanted to set a precedent or, you know, make a big stand, you'd pick a guy on a student visa who did commit a crime. It's an open and shut case. That's easy as hell to deport somebody for. Absolutely.

And a lot harder to argue against, in my opinion. The other way to look at it, and I'm not sure on the legal piece, you might be right, but there is a legal battle that will unfold here, and it's not entirely clear-cut which way it will go. It does look like the administration is like immigration judge shopping. That's why Khalil was flown all the way down to Louisiana, was because I think they like their chances there better than they did in New York or New Jersey. But in any case...

You know, one way to look at it, just like, oh, this is such a screw up. They should have picked someone who committed a crime. It was on a student visa. It was open and shut. No one could even even I couldn't like say that it was that they didn't have the right to do it. And it would represent a much more a much less profound crime.

a bridging of civil rights than what this, a permanent resident, and also he's just a sympathetic guy. I'm about to show you a video of him as well and you'll see. His wife is eight months pregnant. She's an American citizen. You listen to him talk on CNN, et cetera, and he's saying like, "I actually think the liberation of the Jewish people and the Palestinian people go hand in glove and that's why I support equal rights for all."

People have been digging through everything this man has said at this point and have not come up with anything that is like even out of I don't think should be out of bounds at all. So, you know, there was no like I love Hamas and way to go on October 7th. If there was, trust me, you would have heard about it for now by now.

And when he's given interviews and he gave a lot of interviews in his role as like a student leader here, he was quite clear about his commitment to equality and dignity for both the Palestinian people and the Jewish people. But in any case, I think the other way you can look at it is that by taking a maximalist stand –

with this relatively sympathetic person who didn't commit a crime, who is a permanent resident and not a visa holder, they are, first of all, inviting a huge freakout, which they seem to relish. And second of all, once you've gotten away with that, then everything else is easy, right? Then you've laid all this track and created this massive space within which you can operate. So I'm not sure that it's the sort of like tactical mistake

I don't even think they see. They seem to relish this fight. They seem to feel that they are on very firm political ground and are quite happy to, you know, use Mahmoud Khalil and make an example of him. In the immediate term, I mean, I think we're being honest, you probably are on good terms.

I mean, people don't really care much about Palestine protesters outside of like the left. If you still look at the overall, if the overall approval rating for Israel is still quite high, especially amongst Republicans, amongst boomers, it's definitely true. Things have changed amongst the Democrats, but I mean, nobody's shedding tears really for student protesters. I don't think so.

You're probably right. I will say, listen, being the free speech party was a core part of their pitch this time around. You're asking for ideological consistency from the likes of Cater. Right, but I'm saying, you know, they were able to take what, if you looked at like the specifics of, you know, this or that white nationalist saying terrible things,

you would say, okay, well, this isn't like really good political ground. But when they framed it in the context of like, no, this is a fight over free speech and they are the cancel culture ones and they're snowflakes and the woke mob and whatever, it ended up being very politically powerful for them. So there's nothing that says that's

similar abuses directed at Mahmoud Khalil. And they say that, you know, he's the first of many to come, can't similarly turn people off. And, you know, and also the overreaches of post 9-11, eventually there was a backlash against that as well. So you may well be correct.

But I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that. But I do want to share with you guys, and then we'll get to his lawyer, et cetera. But I do want to share with you, because we've talked so much about him, Mahmoud Khalil, in his own words, he actually was filmed as part of a documentary, put together, Breakthrough News shared this. It's being released this year by Watermelon Pictures, an executive produced by Macklemore. And they have

an interview in here with Mahmoud Khalil talking about his family's journey and how they ended up in this refugee camp in Syria. This is D7, guys. D7, go ahead and play this. I was born and raised in a Palestinian refugee camp in southern Damascus in Syria. My family's history in Palestine actually goes back to as long as my grandparent could trace it.

They lived in a very small village right next to Tiberias. Mostly they were farmers. My grandmother, she used to tell us that she had Jewish neighbors. They would share a piece of land where they would farm it. Tiberias was one of the first cities that the Zionists targeted in 1948 with ethnic cleansing.

In April 1948, a month before the Nakba, the Zionist militias, they burned one of their villages. When they heard the news about it, they had to leave immediately. Some of the men went to fight big families. They had to go to Syria. My grandmother, she was pregnant at that time. She had to walk 40 miles. She gave birth on the way.

When they arrived in the refugee camp, they thought it's just a matter of days until they would go back. They did not want to be killed because they heard about the horror stories across Tiberias. My dad was born in a tent. His family lived in that tent until like mid-70s when they upgraded to small structures. In the 90s, they finally kind of like had concrete buildings.

To us, it was always a temporary home until we go back to Palestine.

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So that's a little bit of his backstory there and how his family ended up in this refugee camp in Syria. We do have some legal updates for you guys with regard to his case. You can put D3 up on the screen here. So there was a hearing in federal district court in Manhattan yesterday about the nature of his detention.

tension. And so the judge ordered, and again, this is a federal district court, so this is not an immigration judge. He will also see an immigration judge about the merits of his case and whether or not the government has offered sufficient grounds to revoke his green card and deport him. But they said he has to

remain in Louisiana for now. He set a schedule for Wednesday for the lawyers to present written arguments later this week. He said his order to keep Khalil in an immigration detention facility in Louisiana was not due to the merits of any arguments, but to provide time to address the important issues that this case raises. The judge directed Khalil's lawyers be allowed phone calls with their client, which apparently is something that has been blocked.

up to this point. The lawyer was having a very huge amount of difficulty getting in touch with Mahmoud Khalil and his lawyers that are access to our clients severely limited by the fact that he is in Louisiana. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of Mahmoud Khalil's lawyer talking about, you know, their belief that they'll be vindicated with the case. And also he talks a little bit too about here the role of Columbia. And there's been some reporting come out, emails were released that Mahmoud was vindicated

Every day that Mahmoud spends in detention in Louisiana is a day too long.

We and he fully intend to vindicate not just his First Amendment rights, but those of all Americans, frankly, and all lawful permanent residents, and anybody who wants to speak out. It simply cannot be the case that you can be disappeared. To basically put the university on notice that he was feeling...

unprotected by the university and that he was worried about detention by ICE and doxing and actions by private actors. He was in fear for his life and well-being. That is accurate. He did send that email to the head of Columbia University. And I think his email raises an important question. This is a university that has spent the better part of the last year talking about its duty to protect students and to keep them safe.

But in a scenario where numerous students are being approached by ICE on Columbia's campus and one Columbia student, Mahmoud Khalil, has been effectively disappeared by U.S. government agents, again, on Columbia's property, the university has been remarkably absent and silent.

And the university is coming under increasing scrutiny. There was a New York Times article that went inside a pretty stunning meeting that happened on campus. It could put this up on the screen. So the headline here is at Columbia, tension over Gaza protests hits a breaking point under Trump. Let me read you a little bit of this. They say days after immigration officers arrested a prominent pro-Palestinian campus activist, administrators

at Columbia University gathered students and faculty from the journalism school and issued a warning. Students who were not U.S. citizens should avoid publishing work on Gaza, Ukraine, and protests related to their former classmates' arrest, urged Stuart Carl, a First Amendment lawyer and adjunct professor.

with about two months to go before graduation, their academic accomplishments or even their freedom could be at risk if they attract the ire of the Trump administration. Quote, "If you have a social media page, make sure it is not filled with commentary on the Middle East," he told The Gathering in Pulitzer Hall when a Palestinian student objected. The journalism school's dean, Jelani Cobb, was more direct about the school's inability to defend international students from federal prosecution. Quote, "Nobody can protect you," Mr. Cobb said. "These are dangerous times."

Yeah, I don't know why everyone's mad at him. He's right. He worked like what you're going to go up against the United States government. What are you talking about? And look, I mean, I talked about this before, but I know a lot of leftists don't want to hear this. You don't have a right to be here. You are a guest in our country. And if you're going to shit stir against the current U.S. government, good luck to you. You know, I wish you the best. You're a green card holder? You have the same First Amendment?

- You have a First Amendment right to say what you want. The government has a right to be able to revoke your citizenship. - That is not really true. - Or revoke your residency, which they're going to. No, even if they provide him due process and they can make this case based on the INS, he's gonna go. Maybe it'll take three months, maybe it'll take six. You don't have a right to be here. This is where I do get a little bit annoyed, where at this idea that, oh, what are they supposed to protect you? By what, standing in the door against the government? Like, okay.

Again, like on a sympathy perspective, you're not winning. You're not a citizen. You don't – you can't just come here and expect to be able to do whatever you want without consequence. Well, I think the expectation that you would be able to protest foreign government and critique policies I think is a very reasonable one. Look, I think you should be able to, but we live in reality. You do have First Amendment rights and free speech rights.

So, you know, if it was a student visa holder, then the legal case is much more clear with this. No, I mean, these are this is true, like McCarthyite red scare insanity. And I understand what you're saying about like he is right. Nobody can protect you. The other piece. But.

This comes in the context of Columbia University making a big show about how their number one priority is student safety in the context of, you know, Jewish students who were upset by the protests. But now that you have one of your own students being snatched from your campus without a warrant even being offered after he came to you and was like, please, I like I need help. And you did nothing. That's where comments like this end up, you know,

end up landing very poorly. But, you know, the other thing I would say about this is this is exactly the reaction that the Trump administration is, you know, expects and is manufacturing. And, you know, that it will,

chill all protests and speech and people will be afraid to speak out. They'll be afraid to post on social media. They'll be afraid to go to the protest. They'll be afraid to write articles. There was somebody who wrote an op-ed at Columbia who got like, you know, disciplined by the Columbia University administration, et cetera.

And so, you know, this is the goal of this policy is to make an example of him and to scare people from speaking out on this issue. I don't know if you saw this. This is crazy. Just like side note, but I think is...

sort of facilitate encouraged by this crackdown from the Trump administration, which is, um, the mayor of Miami is trying to pull the lease of an independent movie theater that dared to show the Oscar award winning documentary about the occupied West bank, no other land. Um,

They, you know, they had a screening of it and now he's trying to pull the lease so that this theater is destroyed. Like this climate is insane. It really is not safe for anyone to offer, you know, their criticism of a foreign government and to have this this crackdown in the spectacle and use Mahmoud Khalil, who again committed no crimes, as

We've been offered no evidence even that he was a supporter of Hamas or anything. They just assume he is because he was pro-Palestinian. It's outrageous. People should be disgusted by it. I have no disagreement that this is not what should happen. But I also think if you're an international student and if you value your presence here in the United States, Jelani Cobb is correct.

and that you, like, it's like, what point do you want? Maybe if you want to create a spectacle of yourself getting deported, okay, fine. But, you know, you should be honest too about that. I just see Cobb getting attacked over this. He is correct. The government has immense power. I really just don't know what reality people are living in. One for hypocrisy, like, yeah, you're right. Are these the Jewish student safety? Is that all bullshit? Absolutely. 100%. What the

Elections have consequences. I mean, who do you think won the election and is now setting this standard? I was told this was the free speech party. That censorship, government censorship was going to be a thing of the past. We can all point hypocrisy in all directions and nobody is truly ideological conformist.

consistent. I think this is bad. I mean, I think that a lot of conservative free speech people are either humiliated by this silent and or showing themselves despite getting filthy rich off of talking about identity politics and cancel culture are now cheering this on. Yeah, you should absolutely speak out against them and vote with your dollars or your eyeballs or how say you to speak. But I also think these students are going to get shit advice if they're being told like we're going to protect

you. Nobody can protect you against the government and against Visa. Like you're not in government. No, but you are not. This is this is where I get annoyed. You're not an American citizen. At the end of the day, we can you can kick you out no matter what. You should take that into consideration. True, though, soccer.

Permanent residents have almost all the same rights as citizens. He can be offered due process. And he's entitled to due process. Yes, and he will get it. And he will still lose. And here's the other thing, Sagar, is that they invented, like, it's not like this provision has been routinely used. And everyone should know that, like, Marco Rubio can just decide that you're a threat to our national security, which is utter

It's utterly preposterous, the idea that Mahmoud Khalil is undermining our global fight against anti-Semitism, which by the way, nothing is sparking more anti-Semitism than Israel's genocide in Gaza and our enabling of it. So, you know, maybe there's some people who need to be deported for the way that they're sparking anti-Semitism with their approach to all of this. But putting all of that aside, this has almost never been used in this way. Like, I don't know that it has ever been used in this way.

So, again, the legal theory is not at all settled. You do have rights as a permanent resident green card holder. Mahmoud did not do anything wrong here whatsoever. And if it was the shoe was on the other foot and you had Joe Biden, Kamala Harris saying that anti-racism is one of our foreign policy goals. Well, they did. And we're going to deport them.

Anyone who is either on a student visa or a green card holder who is a Trump supporter because we believe Trump is racist and his movement is racist and this undermines our foreign policy, that would also be insane. And the right would be correctly up at arms. And it would be authoritarian. And it would be an abridgment of free speech and First Amendment rights.

So, yeah, this is an outrageous assault on civil rights of everyone, because if they can find some little provision that they can hang their hat on to try to revoke this guy's permanent resident status.

deport him. You don't think that they can find some little provision that can criminalize your speech for saying something very similar, even if you are a U S citizen, like they just are pushing the bounds as much as they possibly can. And there is not just nothing to protect people who are from a foreign country. There is nothing to protect anybody at this point. Well, I see. That's where I just think that's not true. I mean, uh,

at the end of the day, you're right that Mahmoud is due due process, but they can just give him due process and still deport him. I mean, listen, I hope that the legal theory doesn't end up correctly because I don't want this definition of anti-Semitism to stand, period. I would hope that the Supreme Court would be able to strike it down as an obvious overreaction

overreach. But that's just not really how they've interpreted the law in the past whenever it does come to the ability to have deportation proceedings against somebody else. And I understand why people are getting upset. As I said, I think the principle is really, really bad. I guess I'm just coming back to these international students seem to think that they have a, quote, right to be here, to be able to say what they want and also stay here. And it's like, guys, nobody should be giving you that

opinion. Like really, Jelani Cobb, I think was correct. You're not wrong that they're hypocritical in terms of how they are phrasing all this stuff about student safety. But I mean, if you really believed all of that, I didn't know what to tell you. It's pretty obvious from the beginning. They got their $400 million cut. And of course, this is a reaction. Robert Kraft sent her for $100 million. You think he gave it to them for free? Like, what do you think this whole thing is about, right? This is a private moneymaking scheme.

that's basically, I guess, built on idealism and shelling out $80,000 a year. So if anything, it's more like removing the veneer of where all this is about. But I also don't think that this is necessarily, I'm not saying this isn't an assault on free speech principles,

But it is still fundamentally different than a United States citizen. You know, if a United States citizen is having their actual rights abridged by the government as a result of what they say about a foreign conflict, that's genuinely another matter whenever it comes to this. And I don't think the Trump administration will go there because everybody knows that that would be categorically 100 times more insane than what's happening here. Last point.

There is a distinction because he's a green card holder and not an American citizen. However, he does have this, and that's why this is a dangerous abridgment of everyone's First Amendment rights because he does have the same First Amendment rights that an American citizen has. And that's why, I mean, what we've seen since the passage of the Patriot Act is step by step by step by step more and more civil liberties taken away.

And so if this abridgment of his First Amendment rights, which again are the same as yours and mine, if that is allowed to stand, yes, that has potential reverberating impacts on American citizens as well. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think it's a fair point. I do. Yeah, we'll continue to cover the proceedings because the point there is still very important for what the court case actually decides. I hope...

that they strike it down, specifically this anti-Semitism definition. There is nothing stupider than that. And don't forget, there have been previous legal challenges. Abby Martin successfully challenged that BDS law in Georgia. I hope it becomes a national standard, and I would love to see it. There's nobody who would like it more than me. But I do think it's, you know, you're playing with fire, too, whenever you're going up against the U.S. government.

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Hi, I'm Matt. And I'm Leah, and we're from the Grown Up Stuff podcast. And just in time for tax season, on this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green-Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping 93% of small businesses overpay their taxes. And 17% of Gen Zers believed that you could write off any expense as a business expense. So... Can't blame them. It's really important to do your taxes right. Listen to Grown Up Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Ladies, is it...

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Learn more at Addi.com. Addi, or flibanzarin, is for premenopausal women with acquired, generalized hypoactive sexual desire disorder, HSDD, who have not had problems with low sexual desire in the past, who have low sexual desire no matter the type of sexual activity, the situation, or sexual partner. The low sexual desire is troubling to them and is not due to a medical or mental health problem, problems in the relationship, or medicine or other drug use. Addi is not for use in men or to enhance sexual performance. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is increased.

We'll be right back.

Sleepiness, sometimes serious, can occur. Common side effects include dizziness, nausea, tiredness, difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep, and dry mouth. See full PI and medication guide, including boxed warning, at addy.com slash PI. Or call 844-PINK-PILL. Addy. That's A-D-D-Y-I dot com. Why don't we get to the Democrats? Okay, so we had Alyssa Slotkin, who, I don't know what these people are thinking, but former spook who is now being offered as like the new face of

of the Democratic Party. She gave the response to Trump's State of the Union and longed for the days of Ronald Reagan. I mean, it's just like, you just can't make this up. Now she had a guest appearance on The View where she talked about her view of the country and what's going on right now politically. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

- I think there's a feeling in the country, and I often say this, we're about to turn 250 years old, right? We're still pretty young for a country. These are our angry teenage years, right? We are going through this push and pull where we're happy, we're sad, we want this, we want that. And what do you do when you have a teenager who's threatening

themselves and others, you just try to get them through this period alive so that their brain can fully form and you can come back to kind of what a country... Are you talking about Trump? No, I'm talking about our country. We're pendulum swinging. We're pendulum swinging. And so for me, I don't think there's a single American who feels like this is normal.

And you know she workshopped that shit. Yeah. Like she really thought she was going to nail it with that one. And it's like – That's pretty insulting. Yeah. I'm curious your reaction. I'll tell you what it like brought to mind for me. Yeah. For me, it's just like deeply insulting and elitist trying to talk down to people. In general, what you want to do as a politician, and I would struggle with this, is meet people where they are. As evidenced by my –

of my old age comments during the Social Security. I can say that, I'm a commentator, but you're not supposed to talk about this stuff as if you are some child who is easily swayed and not actually taking your concern seriously. I think that was the real problem, not only with her comments, but also in the diagnosis of what the problem to address there is. Because if it is purely an emotional problem, then you have to meet it only with emotion and with rhetoric.

if it was a problem and a reaction against policy decisions and the conditions of our lives, then the appropriate diagnosis is very, very different in the way that you would meet those two things. That's kind of how I saw it. Yeah, I think that there's... So I read a lot into it, actually, because, I mean, just knowing her ideology, like she's just like, you know, a standard establishment, down-lib, whatever. Number one, if it's just the angry teenage years, it's just like something that naturally occurs

that you just have to let it run its course and get to the other side. And it's like, well, then you are completely avoiding the root causes of what led the country to be in such tumult. You know, you're completely avoiding the way the Iraq war radicalized people, the way that the financial crisis screwed people over, the way that neoliberalism's failures

to improve the material conditions of people for them to be able to afford like a basic stable middle-class life, the way that it's stripped apart communities. Like if this is just a natural thing that you have to go through, then there's no blame to assign of how we ended up here. That's number one. And number two, there's nothing you really have to do to deal with it either.

It's like, oh, well, they'll just, you know, after a period of time, they'll get it onto their system and their hormones will calm down and they'll go back to being, you know, normal human beings. It's like, no, actually, there needs to be a reckoning. There needs to be a reckoning specifically within the Democratic Party and their betrayals and their, you know, coziness with Trump.

a billionaire class that has led them astray from your core mission that used to be delivering for working class people, you know, it leads you to that conclusion of like a James Carville of like, ah, just let them punch themselves out and don't really do anything. And listen, politically, maybe, because they're betting on things are going to be a disaster for Trump. Maybe it's possible. You know, it's not looking that great for him right at this moment. It's not looking great for Republicans right at this moment, especially since Trump, you

probably can't run for another term again. And there's no one else who has really the charisma and star power to pull off the things that he's able to pull off. But in terms of actually building a durable majority and delivering for people, there has to be a true reckoning within the party. And so in addition to, I think you're right about the sort of like condescension,

sensual elitism that comes with this, which is ironic because she's being pitched as like, oh, she's from Michigan, so she really understands people, whatever. But I also, to me, the bigger problem is it lets everybody off the hook, both from the root causes and for what needs to happen now to right the ship. Yeah, I completely agree with that diagnosis. And it is interesting, too, because that's how these more establishment folks seem to be meeting the moment. You flagged a bunch of moments here from Gavin Newsom and Steve Bannon on the podcast.

Yeah, go ahead. Well, I just want to set this up a little bit before we get to Greasy Gavin and Sloppy Steve here. So this is, I think the order is, I think this is Gavin Newsom's third podcast of his new series, which by the way, he's apparently using campaign funds to promote it, which seems wrong to me, but whatever. That's what's happening. And I'll

three of them have been right wing like commentators or influencers. You had Charlie Kirk was number one. Michael Savage, who's like a right wing radio host, I guess, was number two. And then you have Steve Bannon. I think that's the right order. So when I saw originally

that he, that was the direction he was going in because the first two were announced right away. So you knew he was leading off with these conservative commentators. I was like, oh, this is actually really smart. He's gonna get in there and he's gonna fight with them the way he did with Ron DeSantis. That was so popular with Democrats. And as we discussed earlier in the show,

I don't think that the liberal base of the Democratic Party has like an ideological priority right now. They just want to see someone who can fight. And I am deeply worried because I am not a Gavin Newsom fan that someone like him, who has the rhetorical debate skills to pull off the appearance of a fighter, could snow people into thinking like this is the guy for the moment and he's got to be our next nominee or whatever. But that is not what happened. Instead, in each of these, and I've watched a good chunk of all of them,

It is so friendly. It's so buddy-buddy. Whoever it is that's sitting there, whether it's Charlie Kirk or Michael Savage or Steve Bannon, are allowed to endlessly insult him, number one, which is like super cuck behavior with him just sort of like laughing it off. And number two, just like try to pitch people on their ideological view with next to no pushback.

So as an example of that, I present to you some snippets from Gavin Newsom and Steve Bannon here from his most recent podcast. Let's take a listen. Everything happening with the markets, everything happening with the with tariffs, everything happening with CR and a potential government. Don't don't don't don't be given tariff stink. I don't want to start off with you getting that stink. I already will. I'm a tariff guy. I'm a tariff guy.

I appreciate that. And we'll see. We'll see. We'll stress test that. The purpose I want to do this is I want to convert you to be a tariff guy also. This is part of the process to unwind you from being a globalist.

to make you a populist nationalist. It's a long journey. It's a long journey, but I think you'll get there. This is part of the deprogramming, is it? I appreciate it. And by the way, for the record, I'm going down your rabbit hole right here. I'm not an absolutist as it relates to being against tariffs by any stretch of the imagination. And I thought it interesting where we, what I think Biden tripled tariffs on

aluminum and steel, which is getting a lot of attention in this country today as it relates to Canada. And Democrats weren't screaming and yelling about that. So that was kind of how things kicked off at another point. Yeah, I mean, super friendly. And he's, oh, and why are these Democrats so hypocritical? It's like, yeah, I mean, you see what I'm talking about here. There was another moment where Bannon insists repeatedly that the election was stolen from them in 2020. And even on

that, which is like a core liberal priority, rebutting that lie. Gavin just kind of lets it slide. Let's take a listen. We learned after President Trump and look, you know, we disagree on this, but President Trump won the 2020 election and we were kind of shattered as a movement when he left Washington, D.C., and we had to go back to basics and

to say, you know, it can't be somebody else do something. You know, we had to do something. And that's where we went back to really a pure populist movement to go at the grassroots, the precinct strategy and kind of rebuild ourselves from there. Well, and I appreciate the notion of agency that we're not bystanders in the world. It's decisions, not conditions.

that determine our fate and future. And that fundamental notion of agency, I think, is important more broadly. And I think that goes to some of the issues around victimization. And I see a lot of that, respectively, on the right increasingly, even with Trump often approaching

things from that sort of mindset. - What do you mean for Trump? - I think there's sort of the grievance narrative that comes from Trump, this notion, there is sort of a victim- - Well, they did try to put him in prison for 300 years, right? They did try to bankrupt him. If a guy had ever had a set of grievances, they did steal, according to us, and we're firm believers, the 2020 election, which I think worked out better

that providentially that he was able to come back with that gap because I think you're seeing a much more, not just new and improved, but somebody that's much more in command of these decisions and really stepping up in a way that we could have never done before. So that was kind of the energy. I mean, listen, obviously we do this show. We believe in people talking to people who have different opinions than them, but it's just profoundly different.

interesting to me how much Gavin Newsom is misreading the moment for the Democratic base, because clearly he wants to run for president. Clearly this podcast is about setting him up for that. And he is really disqualifying himself in the eyes of many Democratic base voters because of the patty cakes way that he approached these conversations. And the other thing that jumps out at me too, Sagar, is like,

First of all, Steve Bannon is very smart. Steve Bannon knows what his ideology is, knows the world that he wants to see made.

knows how he wants to convert people over to that worldview and ideology. And a just sort of like empty, ambition-driven neoliberal like Gavin Newsom, who I think really doesn't have much of an ideology to speak of as well, like you're no match for that because you don't— number one, you don't really care. And number two, like you—

some kind of ideology is going to be no ideology every day. And so instead of using your platform to offer a different vision, you know, and you can do that in a way that's not like ugly and like it doesn't have to be personal. But if you're not offering any sort of competing vision, you're just giving up space for Steve Bannon to make to make more converts effectively. I don't know what Gavin's strategy is here. I mean, maybe it's that he's got a nice smile and he's

the governor of the biggest state and maybe he thinks he, you know, these liberals, I mean, if we're being honest, they're going to vote for him anyways if he does win the nomination. So maybe he doesn't need them necessarily and he can just- Well, he's got to win a Democratic primary at this point. Right, but- And there's going to be a crowded field. Yeah, uh-uh.

I don't know. I mean, look, I'm saying from his perspective, his perspective is what? Is that, okay, we just had an election. We didn't win the popular vote. I've got to try and have some inroads here with the dudes and with the other people who are more MAGA possible friendly. Show them that I'm not some horrible monster and that I'm nice and greasy, you know, and I can give it to them what they need while also maybe in the future giving the Democratic base what's

what it needs. Are there really going to be boomers in Iowa who aren't going to vote for Gavin because he had Steve Bannon on his podcast? A little bit skeptical, right? 18 months from now. I'm not wrong about that. We've got two more years to go. It's been 50 days. I mean, just an eternity. My theory is that the way politicians conducted themselves right now

When it was uncertain and when it was difficult because they did just suffer a defeat is going to be a critical litmus test in 2028 because that is the way that the Democratic base has really aligned itself up to this point where, again, I wish it was more ideological. It's not. Most of the people, not all, but most of the people who are filling in the gap of being those fighters happen to be on the left, happen to be people like Bernie Sanders, who

Um, you know, AOC has been very vocal. Um, Al Green is another person who's really, you know, I mean, he's not going to be running for president or whatever, but I'm just saying like Maxwell Frost is another one who's been outspoken and people feel like, okay, this is someone who's at least trying to put up a fight, et cetera. Um, Rashida Tlaib, certainly in any case, most of the people who have emerged to fill that gap happened to be on the left, but I was fearful that a Gavin Newsom who is, uh,

very rhetorically skilled, who was very effective in that debate against Ron DeSantis. I think even conservatives had to admit, like, I handled himself pretty well there. If he had these people on and he fought with them, I think he would be unstoppable in 2028. And so I'm actually glad, in a sense, that he's approaching it this way. And what I attributed to Sagar is I think he's in these Silicon Valley donor circles, right?

where they're jealous of the right. You know, it's the same people like Hakeem Jeffries was talking to. And they want the more like conciliatory, capitulate, like make nice. That's the approach that they want.

There is a big divide between that like donor base of the Democratic Party, especially the Silicon Valley donor base of the Democratic Party and where the Democratic base is and what they want to see. And I can promise you he is misreading the moment for the Democratic base in order to win a Democratic primary like in an unbelievable way. So if you think about like the viewers of Brian Tyler Cohen.

If you think about the Midas Touch brothers, like they in particular have been disgusted with him. Their viewers are disgusted with him. And that's where the energy in the party is right now. I just don't want to overread it. I don't...

Because who's got better political judgment, the left or people like Gavin Newsom? That's my point, is this isn't the left. And that's what I think Gavin Newsom is reading it as as well. Because he thinks, oh, these are just like the Bernie people. They're always mad about everything. Whatever, shut up. You people voted for Joe Biden last time around. I mean, it's kind of true.

But it's—the difference is—and this is what I think the Democratic Party is not understanding and is really failing on—is that it's not just the left. I'm telling you, it's the indivisible groups. It's the core—like, the people who went to the Women's March. It is the core Democrat—you go to your average Democratic county party meeting, and it's flooded with regular normie Democrat voters.

Like the median voter in the party is disgusted with party leadership for not putting up enough of a fight. And I think that's where they are profoundly misreading their own voters because they think that it's still just like, oh, the Bernie people know. This is like, this is your MSNBC watcher. These are the people who have flooded to Midas Touch, the people that have flooded to Brian Tyler Cohen, your normie resistance Democrat.

that thinks that Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries need to resign yesterday, that are thoroughly disgusted with the patty cakes with Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon and Michael Savage and whatever, and are really looking for something different than what the Democratic leadership are providing right now. Maybe, you know, it's certainly possible. I'm not, I'm ready, not ready to count Gavin out yet. I mean, you don't- I wouldn't count him out. You don't become governor of the biggest state in the country. He is hurting himself. He is hurting himself right now.

I'm just not ready. I don't know. I mean, part of me, part of the reason, I'll just explain this because this is difficult, and there's a lot of data necessarily to back you up, but every online Democratic freakout and or vibe trend that I've seen from the liberals has never really worked out. And in general, you'd be probably better off over the last five years betting against anything that AOC and Bernie and all of them are fighting on than being on the side of them.

So if you look at the social trends, if you look at from wokeism to BLM to what? I mean, I could go on forever. Defending Biden, which a lot of them did. Pro Kamala, Vibe Shift, Brad Summer, Tim Walz. None of these bets have worked out. So I just am skeptical that this time their grand political judgment is there as opposed to the great survivors like Schumer and Gavin Newsom. In the interim, you might be correct.

But their political judgment and track record is bad, especially in the back, you know, from the last five to seven years of overall political judgment. I mean, he survived recall. He survived recall. He's got a high enough approval rating. Listen, I don't know how they put up with him over there, but they're, you know, the people who don't. They just left, I guess. They moved to Florida. But they like him. I don't really get it. I'm not...

making a judgment about myself. I'm looking purely at the guy's metrics. He seems to be doing fine. He's got a decent approval rating with a lot of Democrats. So my only point is just like, I'm skeptical that we're once again trying to see some wish cast of

of what progressives and liberals have a very good way of shaping a narrative through media and through Twitter and et cetera into believing things are way more popular than they actually are. And there's no electoral evidence to back any of that up. Who do you think is gonna be voting in a Democratic primary? I have no idea. Listen, I don't know. In a Democratic primary, I mean, that you have to appeal to liberals. Okay, but by that standard, then Bernie would have won in the 2020 and 2016 primary. No, because liberals were not behind him. He got blown out. Sagar, that's...

That's what you're missing. And that's what he's missing is I'm not talking about the, you know, Bernie Sanders voter. Yes, they're pissed off, whatever. They're going to be, you know, both. They're going to be looking at it from an ideological veil. So I'm talking about your standard normie Democrat, like the base of the party. And that is what is so different. I mean, that's why these channels are blowing up massive.

massively. Yeah, but how do we know that's not young, disaffected people who are barely not going to vote anyway? Like, I'm just, again, I'm not saying that that doesn't exist, but I have no idea what the 65-year-old boomer out there and how they're exactly taking the pulse. Do you put no stock in the fact that, listen, I know polls can be off, blah, blah, blah, but the Democratic leadership being underwater with the Democratic base, 49% disapproval to 40% approval,

That's so different, wildly different. I put some stock in it. And that is, you know, your normie Democrat voter. Like, they are flooding these offices with calls. They are enraged by the capitulation from Joe and Mika and MSNBC and The Washington Post and Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries. Like, that's...

That is a very different dynamic than we have seen before. And so my contention here is simply that Gavin Newsom has an opportunity to make himself invincible in 2028 because I do think he has a lot of the things going for him that you're – he's got plenty of money behind him. He's a smooth operator, all that stuff.

But rather than making himself invincible, because if he came out as this like fighter in this moment, I think he would be very difficult to beat in 2028. Instead, I think that these he is positioning himself in a way that hobbles him with the Democratic base. And I feel really confident about that. Now, is that a guarantee? No, of course not.

but is he doing damage to himself when he had an opportunity to sort of make it, uh, make himself an unstoppable force? Yeah, I do think so. Maybe. I don't know. I'm not ready to make the judgment call yet. I just, I just don't trust the political judgment of a lot of the folks who I see at the helm right now. They've just had a terrible track record, uh,

And, you know, by the way, 40 percent approval is still higher than a lot of Republicans feel about their leadership. And those people survive all the time and they continue to win elections. So I'm not saying they aren't necessarily different, but you could go much lower. And I still think that things could be I just don't think things will necessarily manifest in the same way. Will he be invincible? He's making different bets.

in terms of how he sees the coalition. Maybe there's also something to be said about somebody who wants to run for president, as opposed to somebody who just needs a bunch of libs to show up in a low turnout midterm situation. That actually is qualitatively different for the overall base. I don't know who exactly or what is correct. I always just think it's important to put that caution out there. Look at the political track record of these people, and it's

terrible. It's not one that has worked out at the ballot box. And so with that, you should think about that in the future. They could be correct this time, but they just don't have enough of a, they don't have enough going for them in the past for me to make any like real trust in their overall political judgment. I think it's definitely working to raise money online to get a bunch of liberals who are already hate Trump, you know, excited. Sure. That's not hard actually though. What's actually hard is to win an election, which they've been completely unable to do.

We'll put a pin in it. But again, I think you're focusing on like AOC and Bernie, and that's not actually what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the mainstream of the party, which you definitionally need in order to win a Democratic party. Sure, but then there's no mainstream elected official who has access to probably more privileged data than you or I that is acting in the way that you're describing, which is what makes me a little bit skeptical that any of this is real. I mean, there are a lot of political entrepreneurs. These are the most opportunist pieces of egotistical people in the world. It's opened up a whole lot.

whole other can of worms. But Tim Walz is moving in more of the direction where he's going out and doing town halls following and sort of like the Bernie model in Republican red districts. So, I mean, this is the other thing. It's like the Newsom approach is also a very elitist approach versus the let me go out and not talk to like Charlie Kirk and Steve Bannon. Let me go out and talk to voters in these places that, you know, that we've lost and that we need to win back and in swing districts and in red parts of the country. And, you know, I also think that

that is a much better approach.

going to the grassroots and talking to regular people about what's going on for them versus talking to, you know, making nice with the right wing. But that's kind of my point is that what we're trusting the political judgment and one of the only two Democrats in the world to lose a popular vote election in 20 years. Like, I don't trust that person, you know, to look at their overall political judgment. I'm just saying, you know, whenever you look at somebody like him, it's like, what are you going to put up? Like, do we really want to point to who's the guy who lost in 92? Dan Quayle? You're going to trust the political judgment of the dude who almost got recalled in California.

He didn't almost get recalled. A Democrat who almost got recalled in California? Listen, I wish he almost got recalled. He blew it out. The fact that he even made it to that point, though, is crazy. Like, you think that guy's the political genius? No, but between the two, I would pick Gavin, 100%. There's no way I would bet on Tim Walz after his track record. But I guess that's a separate conversation for another day.

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Hi, I'm Matt. And I'm Leah, and we're from the Grown Up Stuff podcast. And just in time for tax season, on this week's episode, we're chatting with CPA Lisa Green-Lewis about how small businesses can tackle their taxes using TurboTax Business.

A Forbes study mentioned that a whopping 93% of small businesses overpay their taxes. And 17% of Gen Zers believed that you could write off any expense as a business expense. So... Can't blame them. It's really important to do your taxes right. Listen to Grown Up Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Ladies, is it true?

Is everyone trying to fix their health concerns with unproven gummies and tricks? Well, thank goodness low libido has a real clinically proven treatment. Low libido can be so frustrating, but there is a treatment called Addy, A-D-D-Y-I. Addy is the first and only FDA-approved pill proven to boost sexual desire in certain premenopausal women.

Learn more at Addi.com. Addi, or flibanzarin, is for premenopausal women with acquired, generalized hypoactive sexual desire disorder, HSDD, who have not had problems with low sexual desire in the past, who have low sexual desire no matter the type of sexual activity, the situation, or sexual partner. The low sexual desire is troubling to them and is not due to a medical or mental health problem, problems in the relationship, or medicine or other drug use. Addi is not for use in men or to enhance sexual performance. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is increased.

If you drink one to two standard alcoholic drinks close in time to your Addi dose, wait at least two hours after drinking before taking Addi at bedtime. Your risk of severe low blood pressure and fainting is also increased if you take certain prescriptions, over-the-counter or herbal medications, or have liver problems. Low blood pressure and fainting can also happen when you take Addi, even if you don't drink alcohol or take other medications. Do not take if you're alerted to any of the ingredients in Addi. Allergic reactions may include hives, itching, or trouble breathing.

Sleepiness, sometimes serious, can occur. Common side effects include dizziness, nausea, tiredness, difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep, and dry mouth. See full PI and medication guide, including boxed warning, at addy.com slash PI or call 844-PINK-PILL. Addy. That's A-D-D-Y-I dot com.

Let's get to Southwest, shall we? I wanted to put this in the story. As people know, I love to fly. I've always hated Southwest Airlines, but I have understood its place in the market, which is if you have a family, particularly a big family, it's a great airline to fly. Why? Because of open seating and because of the no paid tickets.

bags policy. Well, they're doing away with all of that. Let's put this up there on the screen. I just think this is a very sad development for the overall airline marketplace. Southwest Airlines will begin charging customers a fee to check bags, abandoning the decades-long practice that executives had described last fall as differentiating the budget carrier from its rivals. For years, it has built all of its advertising campaign around the

The fact that you get up to two check bags for free and open seating, making it very accessible to families. What's especially ironic is that just last fall, as we said, let's put this on the screen, the quote, chief transformation officer of Southwest Airlines had said, "We are more likely to lose money if we start charging for bags." So what did they do? They fired this guy and decided to do it anyways.

And this comes after ditching the open seating policy, which will go into effect soon, which means that they're trying to milk customers just like every other airline in the entire country. The reason why I'm sad about this is it just shows you that if you're like a family of four,

you have no choice anymore. Because with Southwest, they had family boarding, they had the up to two check back policy, which was great for people who were flying to Disney World or whatever, and they needed to check, you know, two strollers and whatever other things the kid needs whenever you're flying. And they were able to board a little bit early, it was less stressful, and it would be a moderate price. Now you basically have the worst of all worlds where you get an

upcharge for a seat, you're getting upcharge for boarding, you're getting upcharge for your bags, and the base airline fare is still comparably high enough to American Airlines, Delta, and United. And as one of the people who flies on the big three, the reason you do it is to get miles that are transferable with international carriers. So not only do you not get access to a large alliance of

in the way that you would on any of the big three, you're subject now to the exact same fees. I guess the only reason at this point to fly it would be if it has a preferential route that you're doing and you just want to subject yourself. But it is no longer the differentiated carrier that it once was, which genuinely made it beloved by a lot of people.

So I just think it's a very sad development. Yeah, when my oldest was a baby and I was flying a lot, I always flew Southwest because of the like... Yeah. Yeah, and it was nice to be able to... People love it. You get to get on first and you pick your seat. Absolutely. And it was very family friendly. Yeah. So RIP. Yeah, the check bag policy is gone. And it just... So not only that is you really have to consider that with a base price of like $400...

That means now that you're paying – again, family of four, you're paying $1,600 plus how much? $50 or so for bags. And then if you want to board first, good luck as far as I know with this whole family boarding thing. And then you're looking at skyrocketing hotel prices and then Disney tickets. We're racking up $3,000, $4,000 now.

at this point. And the price of it has now gotten so out of control that you're watching in real time make it less accessible. And I keep coming back to the Wall Street Journal thing that we were talking about. The reason why this is all happening is that the converse of all of this is that the airlines are actually making a ton of money.

Put F5, please, up on the screen because you can see here how much people are paying for how much airlines make from their baggage fees. They're making billions of dollars a year. And the reason why is that these airlines right now have found that

If you make the customer experience miserable for the mean 50th percentile, that the top 10 percentile will spend any amount necessary to not suffer. So premium cabins, expensive.

I heard- A lot of times they're on business accounts too. Business, not just the rich people. People make $200,000, $300,000 a year. People are flying to Europe all the time. Air France said they were shocked at the number of American customers that are willing to spring for full fare premium cabins. They're like, we've never seen anything like this. And they're making money hand over fist. If you fly international recently, you'll notice this. Those premium cabins are getting way bigger and the economy section is getting way shittier. Wow.

And the reason why is that they can, they have found that they will make all of this money for just catering to the top 10% of the U.S. population. Nobody cares about the middle 50. Our entire economy. This is the story. This is America's story. So nowadays, like Spirit Airlines or, you know, Southwest is just coming like the rest of them, which is like middling service, middling on time. But, uh,

you know, yeah, we'll upcharge you for the bag or whatever. And we're roughly the same price. So at this point, you should just choose to fly based on if it's the most convenient place for your direction or don't even be loyal to any one carrier. Just go ahead and find like whatever the cheapest route is for yourself because it's bad out there. It's not good. Wanted to make sure we got that in the show. Anything else before we go? Nope, that's good. Great show for everybody today. We'll see you all later.

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